Wing Chun Vs Kicks Pt 1

[edward]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc

some video on kicks and wing chun

[monji112000]

Did you make the video?

:D

I would suggest doing some research doing research about what people do, research on your own. He was very adamant on the Karate/TKD style round kicking vrs the Thai style. Which is more popular... well I would say 10 years ago maybe the karate, but today its the thai. I don't believe the difference should be really important. I would suggest training against the Thai kick since it is much more powerful. If you have someone who just doesn't throw the kick but sets it up.. you really don't see it coming till its almost too late.

Honestly thai style kicks generate more power than you were kicking.. That being said MANY counters exist for any style round kick. It really depends on how the person is using it. A Gan sao for a karate style kick its really not that bad. Remmber that you are not just standing and holding your hands up. You are sitting in your horse and you should have moved and aligned your arms in a way that help to take the impact. I don't suggest purposely countering a thai style round kick with a gan sao. Its not impossible.. but you need to really train it and its still not a great idea.
other counters that I know of ..

Bong/qwan/tan lan gerk.. not the way you blocked it. If you turn and jam into the kick and cover your whole body. It really looks like the thai style of blocking a round kick but you cover more.

You can also block a "high" round kick to your head, with a jamming tan sao (also using your horse), and kick the standing leg.

you can also kick the kicking leg...

these last two are much harder to do and honestly if he throws it in a good combination I don't think I could pull them off.

If its a high round kick a solid qwan sao can stop it. Even a nice thai kick.

you must realize that the horse or "structure", timing and reaction must all be used. I rarely see Wing Chun people handle these style kicks outside of Applied Wing Chun and Lo man Kam. I only see people run in and chain punch or do some kind of bad structure block that takes all the impact. Running in.. may work, because its a simple straight line vrs curve but.. you must really be fast and you can't really guarantee that.. I would be willing to bet money that 9/10 times its not going to happen. (for reasons you can't predict)

ok JMO I am sure 20 people will know say that running in chain punching is the best option.

I am not going to say my way is better, I just have had better results.

The clip seems to be more about what other people do than what WC does. Seems like a waste of time since you are a WC person.

[Edmund]

I would suggest training against the Thai kick since it is much more powerful. If you have someone who just doesn't throw the kick but sets it up.. you really don't see it coming till its almost too late.


That was the point that was actually made in the video.



I don't suggest purposely countering a thai style round kick with a gan sao. Its not impossible.. but you need to really train it and its still not a great idea.


That was also stated in the video.
Edward said it was not a great idea.




other counters that I know of ..
[snip]

these last two are much harder to do and honestly if he throws it in a good combination I don't think I could pull them off.


I agree.



Running in.. may work, because its a simple straight line vrs curve but.. you must really be fast and you can't really guarantee that.. I would be willing to bet money that 9/10 times its not going to happen. (for reasons you can't predict)


Agreed.



ok JMO I am sure 20 people will know say that running in chain punching is the best option.

I am not going to say my way is better, I just have had better results.

The clip seems to be more about what other people do than what WC does. Seems like a waste of time since you are a WC person.

Well it seems like that was only Part 1. So I assume there's more to follow.
Also it did mention a lot of "what WC could do wrongly".

I think the clip made some good points that hopefully will be expanded on.

[monji112000]

I honestly if you are going to make a point about whats most people do and most people are going to throw a thai style kick.. saying that most people bring the kick to the center first like you demostroated is flat out wrong. The more distance the kick covers the more power. The fact that it slow and leaves you open is negated with the fact that its thrown in a combination.

given the prevelence of thai boxing in MMA and american culture if you see a round kick prepare for a worst case probability of a powerful thai kick. That way if you have someone who throws a karate style kick that comes to the center first and snaps.. you won't really have anything to worry about.

I am interested in what part 2 will be like.

a good thai match , for research purposes...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nRWTdl2Q5q8

[edward]

if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there's really no point in replying back... i'd argue jessica alba is pretty, you'd probably say rossie odonnel is hotter....

[YungChun]

It's not all about seeing technique A and then applying counter move B... In reality this *is* often too slow, although not always.. One of the keys to dealing with an attack like a fast kick is learning to read the body language of the opponent and also being very sensitive to range and timing.

There are certain times you do not need to *see* the kick coming but rather, knowing when you are vulnerable to such an attack can help you pre-empt the attack with you're own... So, you don't wait for them to kick, YOU kick, or otherwise take the correct action, attack, change position, angle, etc as his attack manifests. After a while you will know and feel when he *should* attack and then, just as you become vulnerable—change/attack/counter and enter…

Knowing when and what we are vulnerable to and developing this sense of timing and distance is best learned by making mistakes and getting nailed over and over again. After a while, and with some work, you’ll develop sensitivity to the opponent’s attacks and how to use them against him.

And as far as going inside, that's where the party is--all the other stuff is just a knock on the door....

[anerlich]

given the prevelence of thai boxing in MMA and american culture if you see a round kick prepare for a worst case probability of a powerful thai kick. That way if you have someone who throws a karate style kick that comes to the center first and snaps..

I've talked to a couple of MMA coaches, one of whom also teaches MT, who recommend the knee-in first round kick. I've got an SBG DVD where the Atlanta MT coach also recommends this. The other style is vulnerable to takedowns (Sakuraba vs Vanderlei Silva for example - Silva won the match but still got single-legged mid thai kick).

You can't necessary fight the way you do in an MT match and expect it all to work in MMA. Throwing multiple skip knees is another example - you can EXPECT to be taken down if the guy has decent defense and clinch skills.

MT don't have the franchise on powerful round kicks either - Kyokushinkai also have really hard round kicks, which have different mechanics.


american culture

Not all of us live in America, sport.

[Knifefighter]

I've talked to a couple of MMA coaches, one of whom also teaches MT, who recommend the knee-in first round kick. I've got an SBG DVD where the Atlanta MT coach also recommends this.

Knee in first, as in the knee up middle followed by a turn of the leg with a snap like was shown on that first clip? I don't think you'll find too many MMA or MMA fighters doing that... you will see that mostly from TKD stylists.

[Knifefighter]

if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there's really no point in replying back... i'd argue jessica alba is pretty, you'd probably say rossie odonnel is hotter....

Those are just kids... look to be about 14 or 15. Even then, I guarantee those are punishing kicks, although they probably only weigh about a hundred pounds each.

Have you ever fought a Muay Thai fighter full contact? The first time I did, my leg was so swollen I literally couldn't put on my jeans for two weeks afterwards. Get in the ring with a competitive MT guy... I think you will change your mind.

[Knifefighter]

As far as blocking the kicks, why not just use the MT method? Simple, direct and proven effectiveness. Not to mention that you can pretty much seemlessly incorporate them into just about any style.

[Edmund]

I honestly if you are going to make a point about whats most people do and most people are going to throw a thai style kick.. saying that most people bring the kick to the center first like you demostroated is flat out wrong. The more distance the kick covers the more power. The fact that it slow and leaves you open is negated with the fact that its thrown in a combination.


Well it seriously depends on the defence that is being suggested.

If it's that finnicky that it makes a difference whether he does it thai style or karate style, then it's going to be too fancy to work.

Edward hasn't put up his idea yet.
Your ideas of doing a tan sao or kicking the kicking leg you have already acknowledged to be quite difficult.

A qwan sao doesn't really sound much better IMHO.

[monji112000]

if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there's really no point in replying back... i'd argue jessica alba is pretty, you'd probably say rossie odonnel is hotter....

first off i was only showing a clip of a thai fight that "looked" more like what you would see if you went into a gym and watched someone train. The over all quality of the fight wasn't really my concern.

but as a point, those round kicks weren't soft. Let me guess you kick trees right?
take one to the thigh.. then we can talk.

Not all of us live in America, sport.

nobody's perfect, I am sure you too one day can come here to the USA. If you work hard maybe your dream can come true like so many millions around the world. :D

I didn't say Thai style kicking was the only powerful or the most powerful I simply said its the most common.

can't comment on SBG or Silva i never watched them do a kick like that. I will say I have seen many of Silva's fights and I have visited a SBG they both use the "thai" method of kick. NOT the snapping method.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FTnnwtLwvFg

[Mr Punch]

LOL at monji criticizing the guy for his intro vid... we haven't even seen what he's going to do yet.

I thought it was good work, and sure, yeah, a good outward Thai roundhouse is dangerous (and I'd argue pretty much covers the middle any way because it's fast and untelegraphed and because of the angle it finishes up at) but I liked the vid guy's style of presentation and it's nice to see people putting stuff up for free, and I'm looking forward to his next one.

Dream of living in America? You're still dreaming pal! :D

[Phil Redmond]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc

some video on kicks and wing chun

Hi Ed, I haven't had a desire to post here for a long time but.... :D
Posting clips on any martial arts group will draw all sorts of criticism usually from people who have none of their own to show. The modern Thai boxing done in Thailand now is not the original Muay Boran of ancient times that taught weapons and other aspects of combat.
In fact, teachers of the old Thai styles don't like the modern Muay Thai "sport" saying it's become involved with corruption, gambling, vice, and has lost many fighting techniques.
Since it's become a "sport" kicks to the groin are not allowed so wide round kick are used attain crowd pleasing knock outs. Spinning back fists, spinning kicks, and haymakers are also powerful since they build up momentum but are not very efficient in reaching the target. We've all heard that MT has most powerful kicks, but people like Benny Urquidez, Tadashi Nakamura, and even TWC Sifu Keith Mazza have fought them on their own turf and won. I have not evidence of this but I've heard stories that a Wing Chun stylist from HK has beaten a MT fighter. I sparred with two MT people when I was training with Yoel Judah back in NY and handled their kicks easily because of my training.
Anyway thanks for sharing that clip. It takes cojones putting yourself out there. I wanted to do the same thing you did so I started a group a while back to share fighting ideas.
It's a place where WC people could discuss WC fighting and no politics. It started to degenerated into trash talking like most forums but that won't be happen again. Since Sifu Cheung is here with us in NJ we've been concentrating on fighting using WC techniques and principles. We have some upcoming full contact event also and I've added some clips of our training The only requirement for group membership is that people use their real names and upload a picture to show that a member isn't some 13 year old boy saying he is a cage fighter with 20 wins. ;)
Everyone will have to post a clip of themselves doing something. It doesn't have to be of you in a MMA event,or sparring match. It can be a demo of chi sau or a technique, anything. This way people aren't so apt to criticize others.
Obviously the group will be small because most won't put themselves out there like you did Ed. In fact though he's not active, Dale (Knifefighter) is also a member. He's put himself out there on video and I respect that.
Here's the link:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/

[Phil Redmond]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc

some video on kicks and wing chun
Oh, I forgot to say that the clip was right on point and I'm showing it to my guys as as reference.
Phil

[anerlich]

I am sure you too one day can come here to the USA. If you work hard maybe your dream can come true like so many millions around the world.

I've been there. Let's just say I'm happier living where I do.

[edward]

Phil, you know people debating whether thai kicks are stronger then tae kwon do or karate kicks... is just wasted time on my part, dealing with them, so i just let em post and enjoy their own writing.

THanks for the offer, I'll take a look.

[edward]

also forgot to mention... people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring.... actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today

[Knifefighter]

also forgot to mention... people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring.... actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today

I've heard that quite a bit and here's my beef with that... no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.

[edward]

well you need to get out more

[YungChun]

I've heard that quite a bit and here's my beef with that... no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.
Not sure it's all about the 'old style kicks'... The original style was more like Shotokan which has a more balanced emphasis on the use of hands and feet, indeed, if I am not mistaken, Tae Kwon means hands and feet...

The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting. Much of this sport fighting and change in application came about after the new era in some Japanese systems that happened after WWII. Some call this the Japanification of these combative forms of fighting into sport forms of fighting or in some cases just for exercise in public schools. It is after this time you see the arrival of the "do" systems <way>, as opposed to the Jitsu <combat> systems from which they came.. Some systems noted for having undergone this change are Karate Do, AikiDo and JuDo.. The latter being the gentle system maintained much of the intent of the older forms because many of the moves could be used as is, as they were not that destructive, eg choking/throwing vs. bashing, breaking, maiming/killing... The more destructive forms and methods died out for lack of use, in sport, and in some cases in order to maintain system secrecy.

To this day it is difficult to determine the effectiveness of the original systems, however it has become more known that some of the older masters of these systems withheld much of the true art from the public, even to the point of teaching techniques intentionally incorrectly to public students.

This may help to explain why many of these arts have died or are dying out, in conjunction with other modern factors such as greed/money and to make these arts more palatable for public consumption...

[Knifefighter]

well you need to get out more

Well, I'm apparently not getting out enough and since you are making videos, maybe you could do one where you spar and show these types of kicks.

[Knifefighter]

The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting.

In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano's judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's. The second with the Gracie challenge of the 80's and 90's. Both of these saw sports styles dominating "combat" styles.

I don't think too many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.

I would argue that if you want to find make your style as effective as possible, develop a competition aspect to it and make that competition aspect as unrestrictive as possible.

[YungChun]

In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano's judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's.

The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy... The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..

Did you know that old style 'Judo' had striking in it?


I don't think to many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.
Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles...eg no contact fighting, etc...Big difference....

You said yourself that folks cannot show the old way.. This is what happened to the old WAY... it went by the WAYside...

[Knifefighter]

Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles...eg no contact fighting, etc...Big difference....

TKD is not Japanese.

[YungChun]

TKD is not Japanese.
The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

[Edmund]

We've all heard that MT has most powerful kicks, but people like Benny Urquidez, Tadashi Nakamura, and even TWC Sifu Keith Mazza have fought them on their own turf and won.

Benny Urquidez has never won in Thailand.

I'd love to see the Thai that Keith Mazza took on. He's not exactly in the weight range of a lot of Thai boxers.:)

Having said that. People have taken on Thais in Thailand and won many times. Doesn't mean Thais aren't good kickers or that other styles are bad kickers.

I've seen plenty of TKD stylists in MT matches and KICKING is not the problem. They are usually more than adequate in the kicking department.



The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

Correct! General Choi Hong Hi, who created Taekwondo, actually studied and taught Shotokan karate in Japan for a while.

[Hishaam]

TKD is not Japanese.

If you omit the nationalistic revisions of martial history in Korea which is opposed to the slightest japanese influence in that field, TKD's origin is Karate. A light reasearch on the matter and talking to koreans that aren't into nationalistic crap will get you to that conclusion especially if they trained in old style TKD.

Sorry for the thread drift.
Back to lurking....

PS: Props for the "we are idiots thread", and thank you for your thought provoking comments.

[CFT]

The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy... The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..

Did you know that old style 'Judo' had striking in it?I have been reading a bit about judo with a view to getting into it. Some clubs/organizations still train the striking skills (atemi waza) in their forms (kata), but I don't believe strikes are trained in randori (resistive partnered sparring/practice) and used in shiai (competition).

[Lugoman]

The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

The Naihanchi Katas turn up in Tang So Do, almost verbatim. :eek:

[Liddel]

We shouldnt really be making broad generalisations on the subject of the strongest kicks.

One could argue, that the trend tends to be that Thai exponents have heavier kicks. But we all know its up to the individuals who train in these methods and not necessarily the style.

When thinking about this one must recognise that in Thailand especially, fighters are training as a way of life. No fight...no money. And in a lot of cases fighters are supporting big families.

Conversly TKD in the western world seems to be regarded like alot of other fighting styles as a hobbie. No one really does it as a way of life or for survival etc...

Although, if you went to Korea looking for TKD fighters, you may find some guys (perhaps full time soldiers as they train TKD in the army,so im told) who break the mold persay - on your views of TKD's power.

Something to think about anyway.......

DREW

[edward]

i dont' know how it get into the subject of strong kick... coz its irrelevant... i mean whether you get hit by a car or a bus, does it freaking matter.. your still gonna die.

As for the thai kick, if you can do tae kwon do kicks, you can do a thai kick, the mechanics aren't much different. and tae kwon do kicks are much more difficult to do in terms of athleticism.

the point, of the video regarding strong kick, is that you don't want to do techinques that might work in school that won't work in real life... i see peopel all the time trying to absorb the blunt of the force in the kick.... and the fact that most people don't know how to kick is fortunate for them... but when you run into someone who can really lay the smack on the kick, its a world of hurt.

[Matrix]

i see peopel all the time trying to absorb the blunt of the force in the kick.... and the fact that most people don't know how to kick is fortunate for them... but when you run into someone who can really lay the smack on the kick, its a world of hurt.This is so true. I once saw someone teaching to absorb a roundhouse kick using what I would describe as a double tan. Sorry, but I hope that they have full dental coverage because they're going to eat that kick if they try to do that. I trained TKD and also kickboxing for several years and have been on the giving and receiving end of some solid kicks. It's just too easy to underestimate a powerful kick a come up with half-baked counter.
I'm looking forward to Part II. :cool:

[Edmund]

The Naihanchi Katas turn up in Tang So Do, almost verbatim. :eek:

Well Tang So Do is korean pronounciation of the earlier method of writing "Karate-do". They never stated it wasn't originated from karate.

Most TKD guys with their head straight would say the same.



Conversly TKD in the western world seems to be regarded like alot of other fighting styles as a hobbie. No one really does it as a way of life or for survival etc...


Also your typical TKD tournament can get quite a few competitors. With round robin pools before semi's, You could have five matches or more if you manage to keep progressing through. Each match has 3 two minute rounds with a possible fourth tie breaker. And you basically have to kick all the time. And no low kicks.

That's pretty tiring. You aren't going to be throwing power kicks all the time. You'd be spent. There's still a fair bit of power behind their kicks though.

[Liddel]

That's pretty tiring. You aren't going to be throwing power kicks all the time. You'd be spent.

Not to mention all the jumping on the spot ive seen in TKD compittions, yes you may be ready to launch a kick quickly but it does seem to require more energy than just stepping and moving keeping mobile....that would also tire you quickly.

From my own VT perspective. I never use only one hand to block a kick intentionally. Only if i didnt see it coming and/or expect it at the time.. and i just cover myself in a last ditch effort to survive a flurry, like basic head guard cover etc....

IME Double Guarn Sao as ive seen some schools do, is just to risky against a heavy kicker, its too much, direct force against force. Also if your position is out and you recieve the force on or even near your elbow...ouch possible broken limb.

In a perfect situation i cover with a Quan Sao variation.
Bong and Wu Sao using both arms as a touch point for contact.
IME its more stable and doesnt crumble under heavy preasure.

Two points are quite important for me when doing this action.

1 - Footwork. I micro step into the kick cutting the power by not letting it reach full extension, which makes your body more dynamic in movement and adds more resistance. And....

2- Inch/ Tourqing power. The effect of your turning forarms into the attack dissipates some force back into the kickers leg and lets some force go away from your body.

In my VT though, during my experience sparring with friends that do MT, the most common block ive used is similar to the MT block, jaust raising the leg with a tiny little In to outside movement. Right out of my CK form.

DREW

[Mr Punch]

In my VT though, during my experience sparring with friends that do MT, the most common block ive used is similar to the MT block, jaust raising the leg with a tiny little In to outside movement. Right out of my CK form.Did I write this?! :D

Same here. Tan gerk or bong gerk, straight from CK, which if you don't overexagerrate (bad sp day) them amount to pretty much the same as a MT leg check.

[anerlich]

I once saw a TKD brown belt break the face plate on the Anzen Bogu equipment during a full contact tournament back in the early 80's. Suffice to say the guy's face would have been pretty messed up thereafter were the face plate not there.

There was a KO from a spinning hook kick in the TKD in the last Olympics. Through the head gear and all. And we all know how powerless that kick is, don't we?

The rules make for an arguably unrealistic fighting style, but don't kid yourself that those guys can't kick hard.

[Mr Punch]

D amn right.

My friend, co-worker and fu student is a taekwondo teacher (maybe sandan). He kicks like a mule, and fast and accurate too. And he's teaching me! :D

The way all TKD kicks go through the centreline is nicely matched to WC (that's about it for points of similarity though the TKD side kick is very much like a wing chun side kick from a high bong gerk), plus the fact that they'd surprise the hell out of most chunners I'll be sparring! :D

[Toby]

Same here. Tan gerk or bong gerk, straight from CK, which if you don't overexagerrate (bad sp day) them amount to pretty much the same as a MT leg check.Hey M, may I ask where do you have tan gerk and bong gerk in your CK? I don't have them in either of the versions I know.

[Edmund]

Two good kickboxers with TKD backgrounds are Kamal El Amrani and Serkan Yilmaz.
El Amrani used to fight in European Superleague.
Yilmaz was in a few Japanese K1 Max events and more recently A1.

Both of them have some spectacular seriously hard spinning kicks that have KOed people.

[Mr Punch]

Hey M, may I ask where do you have tan gerk and bong gerk in your CK? I don't have them in either of the versions I know.My stamp kick goes up through tan gerk and my lifting kick goes up through bong gerk. The tan gerk is easier to see, but neither of them are 'chambers' as such: very much transitory, as the kicks are supposed to go as directly to the target as possible (we do do a 'bigger' version of tan and bong gerk more readily designed as intercepts - strictly the ones in CK are designed as kicks which if intercepted form tan/bong to start around the obstruction - but they are the basis of our leg checking knees too).

My sifu taught us that if the range was too short, exactly the same movement was the basis of WC's knee strikes, and when we got to that part of CK we worked knees on the bag too using the same motion. The only real difference is that when your leg's bent for a knee you can't finish the 'walking step' of the kick without stamping/scraping/sweeping down if your opponent's leg is in the way.

Diffiuclt to explain, easy to show: hope that helped.

[Toby]

Diffiuclt to explain, easy to show: hope that helped.Your explanation was good, I know exactly what you're talking about.


... the kicks are supposed to go as directly to the target as possible ...This reflects what we do - no tan or bong gerk in either of those kicks for us. We train the tan and bong elsewhere, not in CK at all. For all I know it might be one of those "hidden movements" that appear in some forms that I'm just not aware of, but I've never heard it mentioned nor had it taught to me.

I'm going to be in Japan at the end of the year. It'd be interesting to meet up although the opportunity probably won't present itself. We'll only be in Tokyo in transit, Nozawa the rest of the time.

[Liddel]

We train the tan and bong elsewhere, not in CK at all.

I hope you mean, the hand and kick together isnt in CK.
Every major lineage out there contains Bong Sao within CK. Its heavily featured in the section following Pie Jarn. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify....
What i think Mr Punch and i were refering to, was the presence of Far Gerk (as i call it) or a raising leg block in CK....which is similar to the MT leg block.

Not the presence of a Bong or Tan and kick together..... :rolleyes:

At least in my CK. Mr Punch can correct me if hes different.

DREW

[Toby]

I hope you mean, the hand and kick together isnt in CK.
Every major lineage out there contains Bong Sao within CK. Its heavily featured in the section following Pie Jarn. :rolleyes:I guess I should've been more explicit. This is the wing chun forum after all ;). I meant tan and bong gerk, not tan and bong sao. It was supposed to be in the context of the sentence preceding it. In my both versions of CK I do there are plenty of bong saos, although not really tan saos as they appear in other forms.

[Liddel]

My Bad Bro - i dont use the same terms...

:o
DREW

[Toby]

My Bad Bro - i dont use the same terms...To me, tan gerk is like a MT roundhouse block. Knee comes up to horizontal, shin vertical, then outwards rotation. Bong gerk is like what you would do if you were picking something up with your toes combined with some rotation. Sort of describes them both, anyway.

[Lugoman]

Well Tang So Do is korean pronounciation of the earlier method of writing "Karate-do". They never stated it wasn't originated from karate.

Most TKD guys with their head straight would say the same.


Tell that to Mr. Choi ;)

A KATSU I knew while stationed in S. Korea was a TSD stylist and swore up and down that TSD is Korean, and the Kata I knew came from Korea and not Okinawa.

I knew better, but some people like their delusions over what is. I wouldn't doubt the delusion is more wide spread than just Chio however.

[AmanuJRY]

i dont' know how it get into the subject of strong kick... coz its irrelevant... i mean whether you get hit by a car or a bus, does it freaking matter.. your still gonna die.

As for the thai kick, if you can do tae kwon do kicks, you can do a thai kick, the mechanics aren't much different. and tae kwon do kicks are much more difficult to do in terms of athleticism.

the point, of the video regarding strong kick, is that you don't want to do techinques that might work in school that won't work in real life... i see peopel all the time trying to absorb the blunt of the force in the kick.... and the fact that most people don't know how to kick is fortunate for them... but when you run into someone who can really lay the smack on the kick, its a world of hurt.

Any WC tech used against any kick should not be done in a staic position. For the most part, it should be done moving forward, toward your opponet and off-lining away from the power of the kick. The footwork being waaay more important than whatever hand tech you use.

Of course the dynamic with low kicks and using bong/yap gurk is sleightly different from MT leg defence, using more of a forward motion, and IME has impressed some people who use a standard MT leg defence.

[Phil Redmond]

Benny Urquidez has never won in Thailand. . .
My bad. You are correct. Benny fought fighters from Thailand in Japan. Two out of three ain't bad.
Phil

[jesper]

Just to spin off a bit

But if you wanna fight a real good thaiboxer shouldnt you go to the nederlands. I seem to recall they pretty much dominated the heavy weight division at one time.
Although its been a while since I followed MT closely.

[Edmund]

My bad. You are correct. Benny fought fighters from Thailand in Japan. Two out of three ain't bad.
Phil

I'm not sure he's actually beaten any Thai's in Japan either.
I believe he's fought one in Japan but it was ruled No Contest.


Just to spin off a bit

But if you wanna fight a real good thaiboxer shouldnt you go to the nederlands. I seem to recall they pretty much dominated the heavy weight division at one time.
Although its been a while since I followed MT closely.

Yeah. They also do really well in K1. Dutch fighters Schilt, Hoost, Aerts, and Bonjasky have all won the K1 GP multiple times.

The Dutch do pretty good in most divisions actually.

[Matrix]

The Dutch do pretty good in most divisions actually.
"Diamond" Dekker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pir_kDB4cGw)comes to mind for me .

[Liddel]

"Diamond" Dekker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pir_kDB4cGw)comes to mind for me .

Dekker is SICK to watch man.
Look at his intent - Hes out to HURT you. I love it......

His work rate is awesome and i like the downward elbows he launches in the clinch at times.....:cool:

DREW

[Edmund]

Dekkers!
That's a blast from the past. Very famous though.

I was thinking more recently guys like Albert Kraus and Andy Souwer.

There's a guy named Spong who I hear won the A1 tournament recently.

[monji112000]

Dekker is SICK to watch man.
Look at his intent - Hes out to HURT you. I love it......

His work rate is awesome and i like the downward elbows he launches in the clinch at times.....:cool:

DREW

Dekker is a bad MoFo.
Its funny but even the crappy guys I still think I could learn allot from.
Someone that sucks in MT or MMA professionally.. could probably still kick the *** out of me and most people.

[Lugoman]

Is part 2 up yet?

It's been a question of mine from the beginning; that I never think to bring up in class.

How does Wing Chun deal with the kicks of other styles.

[Phil Redmond]

"Diamond" Dekker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pir_kDB4cGw)comes to mind for me .
Yes, the Dutch have some good fighters. Here's one of my favorite.
Remy Bonjasky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2OiBzte7gs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCosqNTYN7Y
Phil

[Phist]

would you say Glaube Feitosa doesn't kick hard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQylRNuMXFI

here you see mawashi geris done the karate way; just tell me one Muay Thai guy who'll beat him. Hm, ok, Bonjasky won Feitosa on points ...- but Bonjasky represents Euro/Dutch/ Modified MT, which is common in Europe.

K-1 is the premier platform for HW stand up fighters, the Champ at the moment is Semmy Schilt, a Dutch kyokushin fighter. K-1 rules are "modified" MT/ kick boxing with low kicks and knees, no Thai knees from the clinch or elbows.

Not that Semmy would mind clinching. he's lost to Fedor Emelianenko, but in his last MMA match he triangle choked a judoka.


From 1:45 on you see Glaube dropping a guy with red ace of spade pants - he's Carter williams, who might be I think the highest rated Muay thai HW in the USA.