Translating Wing Chun training into Fighting

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's something from WSL that k gledhill brought to our attention recently on another thread.

Great quote from Wong Shun Leung:

Interviewer : "How does chi sau and the forms relate to combat ?"

WSL : "Many Ving Tsun people don't know how to fight . In chi sau you will practise those techniques which you have learned from the forms . We are training our reflex actions for certain situations created by our opponents . Some people have the wrong idea that chi sau is to teach you to tie up your opponent or stick endlessly to each other's arms . It is not . It is to train the reflex ability to continue your attacks if they have been deflected . In a true fight we must fight in reality . It should be our intention to do whatever is necessary to survive the situation . It is our mentality to combat which will teach us how to hit the opponent . If you are kind hearted you may try to play with the opponent's arms, whilst doing him no harm . Confidence in chi sao may result in over confidence in a fight . However , delay in an attack will only give the opponent more time to attack you. You , as the fighter , have the responsibility to attack your opponent and to try to finish him off in the shortest type and not to waste the time doing unnecessary fancy techniques . If you don't finish him he will finish you . If you don't want to finish him and he doesn't want to finish you then why are you fighting ?"


***COMMENTS?

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Victor,
I started a group a while back to share fighting ideas.
It's a place where WC people discuss WC fighting and no politics. Sifu William Cheung is here with us now in the States and he's training people for San Da/Lei Tai and other full contact events. We have some upcoming full contact fights at the end of this month and some planned for China. I've added some clips of our training.
The only requirement for group membership is that people use their real names and upload a picture to show that a member isn't some 13 year old boy saying he is a
cage fighter with 20 wins. Everyone will have to post a clip of themselves doing something. It doesn't have to be of you in a MMA event,or sparring match.
It can be a demo of chi sau or a technique, anything. This way people aren't so apt to criticize others. Obviously the group will be small because most won't put themselves out there.
Here's the link:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/

[Mr Punch]

Victor, not much to say other than although he wasn't WSL line my teacher taught us the same thing from the beginning.

It's good to be reminded of it from time to time.

Phil, great idea! Why don't you put up a thread about it rather than posting it many times on unrelated subjects?

[YungChun]

Here's something from WSL that k gledhill brought to our attention recently on another thread.

Great quote from Wong Shun Leung:

Interviewer : "How does chi sau and the forms relate to combat ?"

WSL : "Many Ving Tsun people don't know how to fight . In chi sau you will practise those techniques which you have learned from the forms . We are training our reflex actions for certain situations created by our opponents . Some people have the wrong idea that chi sau is to teach you to tie up your opponent or stick endlessly to each other's arms . It is not . It is to train the reflex ability to continue your attacks if they have been deflected . In a true fight we must fight in reality . It should be our intention to do whatever is necessary to survive the situation . It is our mentality to combat which will teach us how to hit the opponent . If you are kind hearted you may try to play with the opponent's arms, whilst doing him no harm . Confidence in chi sao may result in over confidence in a fight . However , delay in an attack will only give the opponent more time to attack you. You , as the fighter , have the responsibility to attack your opponent and to try to finish him off in the shortest type and not to waste the time doing unnecessary fancy techniques . If you don't finish him he will finish you . If you don't want to finish him and he doesn't want to finish you then why are you fighting ?"


***COMMENTS?

Something that does need to be said from time to time.. :cool:

Chi Sao does make a great bridge between forms and fighting--when trained correctly... :p

And so as long as WCK folks get a chance to explore all three stages, Forms, Chi Sao/Drills and fighting/sparring of some kind, then WCK is alive and well in its various incarnations...

[leung jam]

All in the blink of an eye ;) but on the sides as seung ma toi ma drills in chi-sao teach...some aim guns at shoulders while the other shoots the center ..this is using 2 guns for 1 , not good . rather we should see the chi-sao redundacy factor of having 2 shooting arms extended ...we only do this for each others benefit 'in training'. When we shoot for real its one hand back ALWAYS so we never lose the ability to keep firing in a gun battle.



Good post, gun analogy good example, would say though regaurding words above that some aim one 'gun' at centre and one at shoulder for control ala gary lam, leaving eachother with only one 'gun' each.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think this is the key part of the quote from WSL:

"Some people have the wrong idea that chi sau is to teach you to tie up your opponent or stick endlessly to each other's arms . It is not . It is to train the reflex ability to continue your attacks if they have been deflected ."


***A BARRAGE of punches and other strikes in rapid fire succession as you leak into whatever openings are there to go for - and/or create the openings with a quick "stick/bridge" technique.

That's the ESSENCE of wing chun, and I think WSL caught that essence perfectly with this quote.

And then he went on to say:

"If you are kind hearted you may try to play with the opponent's arms, whilst doing him no harm . Confidence in chi sao may result in over confidence in a fight . However , delay in an attack will only give the opponent more time to attack you...If you don't want to finish him and he doesn't want to finish you then why are you fighting ?"


***JUST HIT THE GUY.

Simple advice, but worthwhile. After spending so many years with William Cheung - I still marvel at something he once said at an instructor's-only seminar about 10 years ago:

"It doesn't matter if you can chi sao. All that matters is can you fight?"

Much truth there. God, would love to have been a fly on the wall when William and Wong got together for a workout back around 1979-1980 in Hong Kong. All that's available are some still photos that have been posted here from time-to-time.

And Tom Kagan recently posted something about Moy Yat once telling him pretty much the same thing - and I used to hear that from Sify Moy from time-to-time as well.

Chi sao and form work are important building blocks - but you have to graduate those two schools and go to college without lingering back in the schoolyard as quickly as you can, imo, ie.- only spend limited amounts of class time on the basics (once you've learned them well) - and then get on with the STRIKING.

Go in and hit the guy, period.

[ZenMindT]

Hello all,

Im new here. At my school we do a sparring drill that even some one on there first day can particapate. The eldest student in the class puts on head gear and a mouth peice, and everyone else wears gloves and forms a circle around him, and takes turnes attacking in about 1 min rounds.

Sifu tells us to forget that we practice Ving Tsun and just attackwhile the person in the middle plays defense. The person attacking should be giving his all, like a 1 min punching "sprint." The point, he tells us, is that when your fighting you should just be fighting, if you train long and hard, your Ving Tsun will happen on it's own(hence the term "reflex training").

[Lindley]

ZenMindT,

Your Sifu is, in my view, correct in the fact that fighting is something that is expressed by you, that should be performed without thought. As Bruce Lee used to talk about "honestly expressing yourself". Means that you should be training the kung fu to be integrated into you, not to be some step by step set of instructions for you to mimick and respond to a particular circumstance.

However, I would not completely agree with the method of allowing new students to participate in sparring drills. I believe that sparring has a tremendous value, but that one should "bring some level of (kung fu) knowledge" to it to learn from the experience. Although your Sifu's method could be seen as a somewhat liberating experience, it can also do some damage. If that new student gets hit, they may interpret this as being picked on. This is why I personally feel, for example, that one should be in the school a while to understand it is not personal.

I find it interesting when there is a distinction between Chi Sao ability with fighting ability. I agree that the person in class who can lop and hit at will may not be able to perform at all in a real confrontation. Almost like they are "stuck" in the rolling posture. Most people associate Chi Sao as just the standard rolling exercise void of any true competitive application. If we include the more advanced stages of Chi Sao in the discussion, then the scope of learning "true" Chi Sao (not just the rolling but the concepts) can provide one with a lot of tools to help develop the ability to fight. Just fighting and sparring all the time does not necessarily make you able to fight! It only truly gives you more experience, which helps in some ways, but not necessarily insures proper preparation for fighting.

The true goal of "Good Chi Sao" is the practioner's ability to extract what is learned through Chi Sao and then (if so desired) apply it to fighting. If you believe that playing Jong Sao and using Bong Sao, Tan Saos, and Kwan Saos in a confrontation means "fighting Wing Chun", then you are not at the advanced level of the Kung Fu.

Good luck in your kung Fu...

[Liddel]

Good Post - Totally agree with Lindley



Chi sao and form work are important building blocks - but you have to graduate those two schools and go to college without lingering back in the schoolyard as quickly as you can, imo, ie.- only spend limited amounts of class time on the basics (once you've learned them well) - and then get on with the STRIKING.

Go in and hit the guy, period.

Yeah Vic I agree, complementing training paves the way to functionality.

Where i train we try to emphasise to students, Chi Sao is a drill and building block and not for fighting also.

The main difference for us, between training habbits and fighting habbits with regard to Chi Sao is....

- In Chi Sao we block the action FIRST and catch the body SECOND.

- In fighting our main focus is to catch the body FIRST

Why, because...

- In Chi Sao we want to train and learn....continuously.

- In Fighting we want to end confrontation.

I understand peoples points about VT being assbackwards and that mixing it up sooner and spending less time on forms and Chi Sao platforms etc would show better fighting results.

However IME this is not the case in VT, mainly because of one the most important aspects of VT principles....Elbow position.

IME teaching someone forms and making them learn and preform Chi Sao and Poon Sao, promotes the habbit of VT elbow position into thier Natural Actions better than telling them how thier Elbow should "behave" and then throwing them into sparring.

Because lets face it. VT Elbow position, is unlike how your elbows behave in day to day life. So its something that has to be highlighted and focused on for most of the early stages of learning the art.

There are of course many other aspects to Chi Sao other than elbow behaviour, but we believe this to be one of, if not the most important aspect to making VT sucessful in fighting.

Once a student of ours shows good habbits or what we call a good foundation in this area, then introducing them to Gor Sao and all out sparring is a natural progression that sees them adhearing to VT principles and strategies that come out naturally without concious thinking.

Chi Sao/Poon Sao and Gor Sao also function to allow students to put other VT characteristics into thier Natural reaction Tool Box. Like -
- Inch power
- Muti point touch or Tourque Power
- Letting force go
- Recovering hand actions
- Yu Ma Lik, combining horse and body force/energies.
- Maintaining center lines
- Range management

The list goes on......so with Chi Sao we can focus on each point one by one in the learning process, without getting confused and feeling like we have to much on our minds at one time.
Which would hinder you in sparring IMO.

This is why we still have many aspects of the traditional training method. ;)

DREW

[YungChun]

- In Chi Sao we block the action FIRST and catch the body SECOND.

- In fighting our main focus is to catch the body FIRST


For me it would be more:

- In Chi Sao we exploit their error

- In fighting we exploit their error

But I get your point..

[Liddel]

For me it would be more:

- In Chi Sao we exploit their error

- In fighting we exploit their error

But I get your point..

Id hope we'd have some differences, im mean we are from different branches. ;)

Its just our mindset towards a VT learning TOOL.

I provided my Reasons for each mindset - what are yours ?

Curious
DREW

[YungChun]

Id hope we'd have some differences, im mean we are from different branches. ;)

Its just our mindset towards a VT learning TOOL.

I provided my Reasons for each mindset - what are yours ?




For the purpose of unifying the mindset of the activities. Such that, ideally, the mental objective remains unchanged--to exploit and take out...

I'm not going by any particular families 'way' but with my own experience and reasoning, of which my formal training was a part..

Of course with Chi Sao you can break it down into very small parts to work on something specific.. But as a whole I believe the mindset/action trained should be one that reflects the application ideally in centerline occupation; power; speed; continuity; economy; facing, following; hand unity; looseness, etc.. and mindset--to fit in with his error and attack, when the moment is right and continue, fan sao, to finish in either case...

Now, if you are playing chi sao with someone who is miles ahead of you, then it's going to be a different outcome but the mindset/training goals can be ever-present.

[Liddel]

I believe the mindset/action trained should be one that reflects the application ideally in centerline occupation; power; speed; continuity; economy; facing, following; hand unity; looseness, etc.. and mindset--to fit in with his error and attack, when the moment is right and continue, fan sao, to finish in either case...

That makes sence to some extent Dave.
Although my Chi Sao reflects what you put foward. "use and/or presents of centerline occupation; power; speed; continuity; economy; facing, following; hand unity; looseness."

We block the action first and catch the body second in chi Sao ,but this does not hinder any of the 'attributes' you mention.

If we were to look to finish or show/do exact actions for unifying our behaviour , in my mind at least.... it would be more like Gor Sao and/or sparring.

So our mindset distinguishes between two VT training tools. Chi Sao and Gor Sao/Sparring. Each progressing from each other.

The mindset of blocking actions first in Chi Sao teaches one to make VT actions and human reaction timing and speed into the users natural action tool box.

Its easier to learn something and not need it for a specific situation rather than to need it and not have it right ?

One quick example to illistrate my mindset.....

You could lop a Bong Sao pulling your partner foward for a trip and as you sweep he uses good timing and punches towards your face....

Now in fighting we would continue the sweep and 'flow with the go' from there, but in Chi Sao we expect you to block the punch and continue the process of sticking and rolling.
You may throw your own punch immediatly after the protecting yourself...whatever.
But you have continued the cycle of the training drill.

One is Chi Sao the other is Sparring - the difference is intent and power IMO and as Vic had already mentioned earlier- you need complementing trainging platforms. This is how we tie it all together.

No right or wrong here, just putting foward my ideas and views on the subject.

DREW

[YungChun]

Hi,

I'm Jim by the way.. :)

As far as catching the hand first--I assume if his hand left the line you would catch the body first no?



One quick example to illistrate my mindset.....

You could lop a Bong Sao pulling your partner foward for a trip and as you sweep he uses good timing and punches towards your face....

Now in fighting we would continue the sweep and 'flow with the go' from there, but in Chi Sao we expect you to block the punch and continue the process of sticking and rolling.

Not sure I understand why one action/response would be 'correct' in training but another would be 'correct' in actual fighting or why one would be expected to do something different in each case..

Why would you not want to 'finish' the exchange in Chi Sao.. ? Then reset...

Isn't that what Fan Sao is all about, continuing, until you 'finish' e.g. take the line and use it or in this case complete the sweep and 'flow with the go' which also sounds a lot like Fan Sao to me.. If the sweep is what you want to do in a fight why not do it in chi sao, or why do it half way? Does the punch get in if you finish the sweep? If so then why sweep and if not then why not just finish the move/flow?

Based on modern training research, folks are saying that one should train how and what they want to happen in actual fighting--how they want to respond under stress, because under stress the primal brain tends to respond how it was trained, whether or not we want it to. The primal brain can't distinguish which part of training was intended to be used for "real" and what was only intended for "training".. Again to me the essence of both should be one..

Just my opinion…

[Liddel]

"As far as catching the hand first--I assume if his hand left the line you would catch the body first no?"

If his hand was not on the line...Yes, but in my example its on the line, hes recovered 'some' position. (this is hard with just words ;) )

I understand what your saying Jim. (sorry bout the name confusion)
I agree to a certain extent, that we should "train how we fight".

Rather than me give further Chi Sao examples, id like your POV on the following....

How do you distinguish between Chi Sao and Sparring ?
What is different between the two for you ? and
How do you translate Chi Sao into fighting ?

There must be a difference between the two....

I understand your question ..."why one action/response would be 'correct' in training but another would be 'correct' in actual fighting "

Its not a case of being correct, its a case of having a mindset that encourages protecting yourself first, for the purpose of maintaining a training drill.
- Chi Sao is not fighting.

Chi Sao for us is not about finishing...its not sparring nor fighting. It's a platform for learning how to apply VT techs with good space and timing. Its more about controlling the center rather than hitting your opponent - thats what sparring is for IMO....

In light of the thread "Translating VT into fighting" we fuse Chi Sao/Poon Sao/Gor Sao and Lux Sao with good sparring habbits (where students can let there power go) for an all over skill set.

DREW

[YungChun]

Hi Drew,



If his hand was not on the line...Yes, but in my example its on the line, hes recovered 'some' position. (this is hard with just words ;) )

There are many cases IME when the partner is leaving the line or is using energy that is leaving the line... In these cases then my focus would be on applying 'freed hand hits the center' etc.. In some cases you may need to run your hand, Jao Sao, return to the line and then hit to the line, etc...

My point is that the center or core is my target, and I am mainly focused on 'catching the body'... Folks that played Chi Sao with Ip Man have commented that they would suddenly find themselves being moved backwards in the midst of their attack, do to his normally catching their body, not normally hitting per se, but by applying the strike in a gentle fashion and issuing force into their center, via taking their center… I have experienced similar things with my seniors and again this is a result of catching the body, the core, IME this is the goal. In most cases unless the 'hand' is in the way I want the center first, his body, the obstruction first if it's in the way, but only because it IS in the way... I might catch both but normally favoring catching the body or core.


How do you distinguish between Chi Sao and Sparring ?

While sparring can be artificial too, Chi Sao, unlike fighting, is very much an artificial construct, something I have called Mirco Moment training, where certain conditions are established and extended, via luk sao in order to focus training on specific contact and ranges... While I agree that Chi Sao is not fighting I do feel that the core objective, say, taking his core and finishing <fan sao> are integral components thereof in both Chi Sao and fighting..

Is Fan Sao an integral part of Chi Sao for you?

Other differences can exist in the modularity of Chi Sao; Since it can be broken down into small parts for a particular training purpose... In these cases when training small sub-components then the differences become larger, but I am in general talking about full blown freestyle chi sao when making references to fan sao, etc...

I also believe in applying other attributes like releasing power through good mechanics in chi sao and I feel that 'hitting' and power, finishing, etc, is also an important part of Chi Sao at some level. In general I am not a fan of not hitting or hitting without power/penetration except with folks who you just met, don't have the right relationship with, or are beginners..

[Liddel]

It seems we are on similar pages, just with different terms.


Is Fan Sao an integral part of Chi Sao for you?

Yes, Free style Chi Sao - Fan Sao - as you put it is something i do everytime i train. Ive done away with Dan Chi Sao and Poon Sao unless with the newer students.

:) You use the term 'Finish' and i used the phrase 'controling the center'. After reading your last post im starting to think we are talking about the same thing in a way.

I tend to think of a 'finish', as a move that will indeed end a fight. Heavy punches right on the button, elbows, stomps, kicks etc etc.

My POV is due to the fact i realise, one really good smack to the face aint going to finish a fight on the street. Most people worked up can take many hits before giving up physically or otherwise....

So in Fan Sao if ive taken my partners space got into his center or the like i catch him yes, take my hand back and continue looking for openings or look to make my own openings on him.....

[YungChun]

Yes, Free style Chi Sao - Fan Sao - as you put it is something i do everytime i train. Ive done away with Dan Chi Sao and Poon Sao unless with the newer students.
I thought that Poon Sao was Luk Sao, we never used the term poon...

BTW:

Fan Sao as I know it--means 'following hand' and in short refers to the second action... When applying Fan sao the first action--whatever that is attack-wise must set up the next action and allow for continued control by continuously setting up the following action--essentially finishing off the opponent...

Nowadays folks are using a greater diversity of moves to do this but the essence of the meaning is that a single attacking movement or action--even one that lands--alone is not enough and instead this attacking action must also set up the next move, and so on--essentially continuity of control/attack...like in billiards.

[Liddel]

[QUOTE=YungChun;781334]I thought that Poon Sao was Luk Sao, we never used the term poon...
[QUOTE]

Yeah terms between lineages, like actions - can be quite different. We've never used the term "Fan Sao" before...

Chi Dan Sao - Single sticking hands. 3 actions repeated.

Poon Sao - Double Sticking hands. again actions repeated but with some
variations.

Gor Sao - Free flow sticking hands from contact position. Any and all actions.

Luk Sao - Similar to controlled sparring - defending yourself from a non contact
position first. i.e someone enters your space with any attack. Again any
and all actions.

I dont know the direct translation of the terms (help anyone ?), but these are the definitions ive come to relate to each training platform.

[YungChun]

Chi Dan Sao - Single sticking hands. 3 actions repeated.

Same for us..


Poon Sao - Double Sticking hands. again actions repeated but with some
variations.

We just call it Chi Sao.. :) Infinite variations but common starting point <luk sao>


Gor Sao - Free flow sticking hands from contact position. Any and all actions.

Term not used often if at all for us...


Luk Sao - Similar to controlled sparring - defending yourself from a non contact
position first. i.e someone enters your space with any attack. Again any
and all actions.

Luk Sao is the rolling action in Chi Sao. as we use the term..

Fan Sao or 'following hand' was taught as an essential component of good Chi Sao to show true control..

[t_niehoff]

Based on modern training research, folks are saying that one should train how and what they want to happen in actual fighting--how they want to respond under stress, because under stress the primal brain tends to respond how it was trained, whether or not we want it to. The primal brain can't distinguish which part of training was intended to be used for "real" and what was only intended for "training".. Again to me the essence of both should be one..

Just my opinion…

The first good point made on this thread.

It's not just the "essence" -- whatever that is -- that needs to be the same: there has to be exact consistency between what we learn (skill/technique/whatever) to do, how we practice it, and how we really do it. Otherwise, we are learning or practicing one thing with the idea of doing something else in fighting. That is a hallmark of poor training. When we look at modern fighters and how they train (actually, all athletes in any athletic activity), we see that their learning, training, and use correspond 1-to-1-to-1. One way to look at skill is to see it as a heirarchy of habits. Habits are conditioned actions that have been repeated to the point that they have become unconscious behaviors. You develop habits by being consistent in your actions/behaviors. Practice a poor fighting habit, and that's what you will develop.

But this begs the question: how do we know what is a good or poor fighting habit. Well, not from theory - how we believe fighting should be. You can only know by fighting, and with good people. You need to work from the top down (take what works in fighting, then train it, then use it), not from the bottom up (not take what we think should work, practice it, then try to use it in fighting).

This is why, in part, that sparring is essential. You are trying to develop fighting habits that work for you, and you can't know what those habits are (you may have a theory, but it might be, and probably is, wrong) - and certainly can't develop them into habits - without sparring/fighting.

The title of this thread -- "Translating Wing Chun training into Fighting" -- speaks volumes. The very fact people in WCK need to "translate" training into fighting proves that what they are doing is poor training, that there isn't that 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence between learning, practice, use.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
Based on modern training research, folks are saying that one should train how and what they want to happen in actual fighting--how they want to respond under stress, because under stress the primal brain tends to respond how it was trained, whether or not we want it to. The primal brain can't distinguish which part of training was intended to be used for "real" and what was only intended for "training".. Again to me the essence of both should be one..

Just my opinion…


Specificity rules.
There is no gray area here, you fight like you train.

Wither you wanna call it the "primal" brain or the "repitilian" brain.
If we train to keep out chin down, it will stay down, train and not focuse on keeping your chin down and it will come up and BAM !

It really is just that simple.


It's not just the "essence" -- whatever that is -- that needs to be the same: there has to be exact consistency between what we learn (skill/technique/whatever) to do, how we practice it, and how we really do it. Otherwise, we are learning or practicing one thing with the idea of doing something else in fighting. That is a hallmark of poor training. When we look at modern fighters and how they train (actually, all athletes in any athletic activity), we see that their learning, training, and use correspond 1-to-1-to-1. One way to look at skill is to see it as a heirarchy of habits. Habits are conditioned actions that have been repeated to the point that they have become unconscious behaviors. You develop habits by being consistent in your actions/behaviors. Practice a poor fighting habit, and that's what you will develop.

But this begs the question: how do we know what is a good or poor fighting habit. Well, not from theory - how we believe fighting should be. You can only know by fighting, and with good people. You need to work from the top down (take what works in fighting, then train it, then use it), not from the bottom up (not take what we think should work, practice it, then try to use it in fighting).

This is why, in part, that sparring is essential. You are trying to develop fighting habits that work for you, and you can't know what those habits are (you may have a theory, but it might be, and probably is, wrong) - and certainly can't develop them into habits - without sparring/fighting.

The title of this thread -- "Translating Wing Chun training into Fighting" -- speaks volumes. The very fact people in WCK need to "translate" training into fighting proves that what they are doing is poor training, that there isn't that 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence between learning, practice, use.

One of the biggest issues we have right now in the MA is "****genized" sparring.
We tend to spar our "own" and thus, we become proficient in fighting our "own".
Not a good thing at all.
Just like fighting within a give ruleset- boxing and wrestling for example, leaves us open and vulnerable to the "unknown", so does sparring within our own system.

[t_niehoff]

One of the biggest issues we have right now in the MA is "****genized" sparring.
We tend to spar our "own" and thus, we become proficient in fighting our "own".
Not a good thing at all.
Just like fighting within a give ruleset- boxing and wrestling for example, leaves us open and vulnerable to the "unknown", so does sparring within our own system.


I agree 100&#37;.

However, good and poor fighting habits are universal even if our approaches to fighting vary (different styles, for example). We don't develop good fighting habits from some "theoretical system", whether WCK or boxing or BJJ or whatever -- we learn and develop them from sparring/fighting with really good fighters regardless of their and our method. That's because they show us our flaws (the better the fighter, the better they can take advantage of the tiniest mistake we make) so that we can identify and "fix" them and we can see good fighting habits in action (and adopt them ourselves).

[Hendrik]

However, good and poor fighting habits are universal even if our approaches to fighting vary (different styles, for example).


We don't develop good fighting habits from some "theoretical system",


Sure,

The question is what is the "Nature" and according to what? until one could answer that isnt it everything is "theorectical system" speculation?


BTW, I dont believe in Translation. Translation means one uses one's mind to translate this to that. the reality or the nature doesnt need translation. it is just it is. check for oneself,


for example, how is one going to TRANSLATE sleeping? In the reality, one just let go the body and mind and sleep. what translation? keeping spining the mind is going to get one away from sleeping.


or next time when you eat keep thinking and TRANSLATING how the spoon aim toward your mouth and what your mouth needs to do to accept it.....and see how is that compare with just let go and eat?


It is always easy to say

We don't develop good fighting habits from some "theoretical system"

but what is the solution to get passed the speculation and get into the nature?


again, a very simple example one could observe, do you hold your breath or tighten your body to prepare for a punch and then punch?

if so, then isnt that subject to unconscious programming via a theoretical system?


Think about it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree 100%.

However, good and poor fighting habits are universal even if our approaches to fighting vary (different styles, for example). We don't develop good fighting habits from some "theoretical system", whether WCK or boxing or BJJ or whatever -- we learn and develop them from sparring/fighting with really good fighters regardless of their and our method. That's because they show us our flaws (the better the fighter, the better they can take advantage of the tiniest mistake we make) so that we can identify and "fix" them and we can see good fighting habits in action (and adopt them ourselves).

Of you wanna learn, fight a better fighter, no doubt.
Nothing is a better teacher than pain :D

[t_niehoff]

Sure,

The question is what is the "Nature" and according to what? until one could answer that isnt it everything is "theorectical system" speculation?


BTW, I dont believe in Translation. Translation means one uses one's mind to translate this to that. the reality or the nature doesnt need translation. it is just it is. check for oneself,


for example, how is one going to TRANSLATE sleeping? In the reality, one just let go the body and mind and sleep. what translation? keeping spining the mind is going to get one away from sleeping.


or next time when you eat keep thinking and TRANSLATING how the spoon aim toward your mouth and what your mouth needs to do to accept it.....and see how is that compare with just let go and eat?


It is always easy to say

We don't develop good fighting habits from some "theoretical system"

but what is the solution to get passed the speculation and get into the nature?


The "solution" is to do the activity itself. You can only learn and develop good fighting habits by and through fighting. A person can't find "the nature" of fighting outside of fighting.



again, a very simple example one could observe, do you hold your breath or tighten your body to prepare for a punch and then punch?

if so, then isnt that subject to unconscious programming via a theoretical system?

Think about it?

Or, just have people spar. They will find by sparring not only is holding the breath not useful, but that they can't even do it! Sparring will force you to breath correctly.

When we fight/spar and we are hard-pressed, we will see what things our body can do and what it can't do, we'll find out what sorts of things work (for us) and what things don't, we'll see the true nature of fighting, etc. You can't see these things ourside of fighting since you are not using your body under that level of stress/exertion. We can only come to truly and fully appreciate the demands/nature of fighting through experience. Experience is the only teacher.

[Hendrik]

Or, just have people spar.

They will find by sparring not only is holding the breath not useful, but that they can't even do it! Sparring will force you to breath correctly.




Could just have people spar will find by sparring........Sparring will force you to breath correctly?


Take a poll.

1, how many is aware of thier breathing?
2, how many could handle thier breathing?
3, what is a correct breathing?
4, is it true that Sparring will force you to breath correctly?



and

may be you could share your experience of the above.

Before you punch do you hold your breathing? if not what do you do?

is what you do " correct and not theoritical, and accord to the nature"? how do you justified that?



furthermore, how is the state of your hip before you are punching?......




See, until all of these are awared and clear. nothing about Nature can be discussed.

And to aware of and clear about the above topic. in Chinese Martial art is called ---- INTERNAL TRAINING. That is what the EMEI 12 Zhuang's teaching is about ---AWARENESS of every details so that one could flow with it and make the best use of it.

[Hendrik]

When we fight/spar and we are hard-pressed, we will see what things our body can do and what it can't do, we'll find out what sorts of things work (for us) and what things don't, we'll see the true nature of fighting, etc..


Sure, it is a good theory.

How many has caused problem in thier health and damage thier internal organs following this path?


The Chinese Call this type of training "heen Lien" or bruteforce training.

and

Too bad one's mind doesnt aware of one's blood pressure level or one's heart beat, or one's oxigen intake. not to mention aware of the condition of the organs.

because of these above, could one find out what sorts of things work and what things dont?

simple logic and common sense will see what is the answer.






if you are over 40 years old, I suggest, not going this path because you might cause damage or even drop dead before you know what is working or what is not.


Thus, the Chinese Martial art's internal training Starts with AWARE of the body, breathing, mind condition.... See, it is not the fault of Chinese Martial art internal training. it is the problem of we dont understand what is the Internal is about but keep speculate and critics on something we have no idea. That is a reality.

[YungChun]

Thought this thread might escape the hackneyed diatribe cycle effect..

No matter...


S
if you are over 40 years old, I suggest, not going this path because you might cause damage or even drop dead before you know what is working or what is not.




Train hard when you are young; or you'll have nothing when you're old...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, it is a good theory.

How many has caused problem in thier health and damage thier internal organs following this path?


The Chinese Call this type of training "heen Lien" or bruteforce training.

and

Too bad one's mind doesnt aware of one's blood pressure level or one's heart beat, or one's oxigen intake. not to mention aware of the condition of the organs.

because of these above, could one find out what sorts of things work and what things dont?

simple logic and common sense will see what is the answer.






if you are over 40 years old, I suggest, not going this path because you might cause damage or even drop dead before you know what is working or what is not.


Thus, the Chinese Martial art's internal training Starts with AWARE of the body, breathing, mind condition.... See, it is not the fault of Chinese Martial art internal training. it is the problem of we dont understand what is the Internal is about but keep speculate and critics on something we have no idea. That is a reality.

Is someone thinking that every sparring match is a blood bath ???

Intensity varies, its called "common sense".
You don't need to go all out, just hard enough so that reactions are "honest".

Your concerns sound ridiculous.

[YungChun]

Is someone thinking that every sparring match is a blood bath ???

Good point.. :cool:

Not everyone has to train as hard as Terence does... ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point.. :cool:

Not everyone has to train as hard as Terence does... ;)

:D
Contact only has to be hard "enough" to get a reaction, a correct and honest reaction.
Anything more should be saved for competition and the street.

[t_niehoff]

:D
Contact only has to be hard "enough" to get a reaction, a correct and honest reaction.
Anything more should be saved for competition and the street.

You need to train at the intensity (contact) level you wish to perform -- or you won't be able to perform (well) at that level. If you want to train for competition, then you need to train *above* that level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You need to train at the intensity (contact) level you wish to perform -- or you won't be able to perform (well) at that level. If you want to train for competition, then you need to train *above* that level.

Not on a regular basis, I do kyuokushin ( of the Kudo variation), if I was to train ABOVE the level of competition on a regular basis either I or my sparring partners would be out of commisson with injuries on a regular basis.

Even pro fighters don't train that way.

[Hendrik]

You need to train at the intensity (contact) level you wish to perform -- or you won't be able to perform (well) at that level. If you want to train for competition, then you need to train *above* that level.



I agree.

if one couldnt even get fit for competition, forget about self-defence. for without that level of training. one is day dreaming.

[Hendrik]

Not on a regular basis, I do kyuokushin ( of the Kudo variation), if I was to train ABOVE the level of competition on a regular basis either I or my sparring partners would be out of commisson with injuries on a regular basis.

Even pro fighters don't train that way.




I do kyokushin too in the past when late Mas Oyama was still teaching...


How could one doing serious breaking (via if not via deligent condition hand and feet) and could sustain punch and perform chain low Round house kicks...... for the Kyokushin OSU and Ichigeki without all the limitation breaking training of mind and body?

How about the tradition of taking cold show from waterfall in winter outdoor training?


Also, how is the Thai boxer practicioners train? take a look closely.

What is the reality?

[t_niehoff]

Could just have people spar will find by sparring........Sparring will force you to breath correctly?


What is the correct way to breath while running? Someone doesn't need to show you, they don't need to give you special exercises, there is no need for theory -- just get out and run. The demands of doing the activity itself will force you to breath correctly.




punch do you hold your breathing? if not what do you do?

is what you do " correct and not theoritical, and accord to the nature"? how do you justified that?


If you want to learn how to breath while boxing, just get in the ring and box. You won't find it any other way.



furthermore, how is the state of your hip before you are punching?......


People don't develop good skills by intellectualizing the process or by trying to intentionally segment things -- you learn by doing, seeing the results, and doing some more. Want to learn how to throw a ball hard and long? Practice doing that. No one will need to show you how to breath or what the "state of your hip is" when throwing. Hendrik, you are only constipating the process.




See, until all of these are awared and clear. nothing about Nature can be discussed.

And to aware of and clear about the above topic. in Chinese Martial art is called ---- INTERNAL TRAINING. That is what the EMEI 12 Zhuang's teaching is about ---AWARENESS of every details so that one could flow with it and make the best use of it.

You aren't aware of "it" unelss you can do it. You can't be aware of what is going on in any skill if you can't do it yourself. Awareness doesn't come before skill, but from skill. And skill comes from doing it. You develop skill in throwing a ball by actually throwing the ball. From that practice -- actually throwing the ball -- you become aware of what things work and don't work, of how to use your body, etc.

Internal training is bullsh1t. It's a bill of goods sold by those who don't have fighting skills to the gullible.

[t_niehoff]

Not on a regular basis, I do kyuokushin ( of the Kudo variation), if I was to train ABOVE the level of competition on a regular basis either I or my sparring partners would be out of commisson with injuries on a regular basis.

Even pro fighters don't train that way.

Yes they do. They train longer, harder, put themselves under more stress, more difficult situations, etc. As Mike Tyson said, "fighting is the easy part, it's the training that is hard."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes they do. They train longer, harder, put themselves under more stress, more difficult situations, etc. As Mike Tyson said, "fighting is the easy part, it's the training that is hard."

We are talking about sparring, NOT training per say and PRO's CYCLE their training.

Trust me on this ;).

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the correct way to breath while running? Someone doesn't need to show you, they don't need to give you special exercises, there is no need for theory -- just get out and run. The demands of doing the activity itself will force you to breath correctly.


There are specific ways to breathe when you run, just ask any distance or sprint runner.


If you want to learn how to breath while boxing, just get in the ring and box. You won't find it any other way.
There are specfic ways to breathe while boxing too.
Mouth guard issues and learning how to breathe when you can't do it through your nose, etc.

[YungChun]

Since you're on a roll Terence... Why don't you tell us how you train...

How do you spar?

What rule set?
What equipment do you use?
Do you fight in rounds?
Is there a ref?
Do you use Wing Chun techniques?
Do you fight to finish with your standup game?


Who do you spar?
Wing Chun folks?
NHB Folks?
Other styles?

How often do you spar?

And if I may ask--how old are you?

[Hendrik]

Internal training is bullsh1t. It's a bill of goods sold by those who don't have fighting skills to the gullible.


Sure, perfect answer from your "Theoritical system thinking"

that is because you have no awareness of what you are talking about? hahahaha

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure,

that is because you have no awareness of what you are talking about? hahahaha

Care to demonstrate?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Since you're on a roll Terence... Why don't you tell us how you train...

How do you spar?

What rule set?
What equipment do you use?
Do you fight in rounds?
Is there a ref?
Do you use Wing Chun techniques?
Do you fight to finish with your standup game?


Who do you spar?
Wing Chun folks?
NHB Folks?
Other styles?

How often do you spar?

And if I may ask--how old are you?



***DON'T BET any money on getting a legit answer to these questions, Jim...:D
(Except maybe the question about age. Speaking of which, see my signature below).

[Hendrik]

Care to demonstrate?


No need to demonstrate you have already doing it.

do you do Ibuki?

if you do then that is internal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure,

do you do Ibuki?

if you do then that is internal.

I am kyokushin, we crap Ibuki !
* those that know ibuki breathing will see the trueisim in that*
:D

[Hendrik]

You aren't aware of "it" unelss you can do it. You can't be aware of what is going on in any skill if you can't do it yourself. Awareness doesn't come before skill, but from skill. And skill comes from doing it. You develop skill in throwing a ball by actually throwing the ball. From that practice -- actually throwing the ball -- you become aware of what things work and don't work, of how to use your body, etc.
.


Isnt it not a critical thinking taking one's "theoritical system" thinking as "the reference" or as the Truth of the universal?

World is vast and wide, that perhaps you dont aware of yet.



Thanks for the discussion.

[Hendrik]

I am kyokushin, we crap Ibuki !
* those that know ibuki breathing will see the trueisim in that*
:D

what do you mean by "crap" Ibuki?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what do you mean by "crap" Ibuki?
:rolleyes:

Dude....

[t_niehoff]

Since you're on a roll Terence... Why don't you tell us how you train...

How do you spar?

What rule set?
What equipment do you use?
Do you fight in rounds?
Is there a ref?
Do you use Wing Chun techniques?
Do you fight to finish with your standup game?


Who do you spar?
Wing Chun folks?
NHB Folks?
Other styles?

How often do you spar?

And if I may ask--how old are you?

Why do some of you always want to make these discussions personal -- what things specifically I do -- as opposed to talking about what everyone needs to do? Why don't you discuss the substance of the topic?

Look, a person's fighting performance level will be limited to their conditioning level. That applies to everyone, regardless of "style". What I do for conditioning or what my level of conditioning is doesn't change that fact. How good or bad I am doesn't change that fact. How do I know that is true? From experience, and from common sense. But you don't need my experience or even need to know what my experience is, just look at any and all fighters and it is right before your eyes. Talk with good (proven) fighters and (proven) fight trainers, they will tell you the same thing. These things don't rest on my personal authority or my performance level. And I wouldn't want them to. If you disagree, it is easy enough to disprove what I'm saying. Just show me evidence that contradicts this.

It is the same for what it takes to develop significant fighitng skills. What I do or what I can't do does not make any difference to the underlying discussion. Do I practice what I preach? Yup, and my views come from experience. It's taken me - unfortunately - quite a while to find these things out. Not because the info wasn't out there (much of it isn't in WCK circles), but because, like many others, I believed (was brainwashed into believing) much of the traditional nonsense, I listened to "the masters" tell me what to do, how to do it, etc.

If you want to learn how to effectively train as a fighter, just do what the good fighters do, what the good fight trainers do, etc. They've identified the most effective training process. That's what I've been trying to do, and what I do. But don't listen to nonfighters, to theoreticians, to "masters", etc -- they don't and can't have answers. All they can do is point you in the wrong direction.

But if for some reason you are seriously interested in what I do, how I train, etc., you're welcome to visit and see for yourself. If you want to discuss training methods, that's fine too.

[t_niehoff]

Isnt it not a critical thinking taking one's "theoritical system" thinking as "the reference" or as the Truth of the universal?

World is vast and wide, that perhaps you dont aware of yet.

Thanks for the discussion.

When I said,

"You aren't aware of "it" unelss you can do it. You can't be aware of what is going on in any skill if you can't do it yourself. Awareness doesn't come before skill, but from skill. And skill comes from doing it. You develop skill in throwing a ball by actually throwing the ball. From that practice -- actually throwing the ball -- you become aware of what things work and don't work, of how to use your body, etc."

this isn't theoretical or critical thinking, it is perception of the way things really are that comes from experience. Awareness comes from skill. How can anyone know what they are doing, what is going on when they do it, etc. if they can't (and haven't) done it? They wouldn't really know. How do you develop awareness in grappling? By grappling. The more skilled you become, the more aware you are of what is going on, the possibilites, how to best use your body, etc. It is the same for any physical activity.

[Wayfaring]

Why do some of you always want to make these discussions personal -- what things specifically I do -- as opposed to talking about what everyone needs to do? Why don't you discuss the substance of the topic?

Well, unfortunately it's really hard to differentiate the message from the messenger. It goes to credibility. I think that's why most everyone wants to check out what it is you do personally.

It's easy to dismiss these kind of questions saying they are ad hominem and that they don't address the substance of the argument.

However, the message does have more or less weight depending on whether it is coming from a pot-bellied armchair quarterback, or someone like Jason Delucia, who came on here once and had some discussions.

Your arguments about conditioning for fighting are valid. They are correct - this is why your average NCAA Div I wrestler is more effective in fighting scenarios than your average WCK "master". The wrestler functions on quotes from Dan Gable like "your conditioning is your best hold", rather than "go to center and dominate" or whatever and never condition themselves. If someone has 30% more strength, cardio, and a good understanding of striking and grappling, they are probably going to own your centerline, whether or not they can quote the correct elements of theory or not.

However, people still want to know what it is exactly that you do. How you have adapted your training based upon realistic exposure to fighters. Who you train with now. Stuff like that.

It may be something you're not willing to get into. Which is a personal choice.

[jesper]

What is the correct way to breath while running? Someone doesn't need to show you, they don't need to give you special exercises, there is no need for theory -- just get out and run. The demands of doing the activity itself will force you to breath correctly.

Not interrely true.
Go watch joggers and you will see that most dont breath properly.

Sometimes what the mind wants to do isnt the optimum way to perform.

Another example from running.
Observe how many tense their upper body parts when running, that is hardly the optimum way of moving but if they are not shown are better way, the body will continue to perform subpar.

There is a whole science behind how to run depending on whether your sprinting, jogging or doing the marathon. Its not just a matter of going out to run.

Same with MA, if you just spar without getting some theory you will properbly be able to do ok. If on the other hand you combine the two, you will in most likelyhood become much much better fighter. One does not exclude the other.

[jesper]

Sorry to pick on you again T


If you want to learn how to effectively train as a fighter, just do what the good fighters do, what the good fight trainers do, etc. They've identified the most effective training process.

How do you know ?
It may be the best way we know of today, or it may not.
But if you dont theorise and try to put that into practice, how do you progress ?

Look terrence, most agree with you that you need to spar. Most also agree that MMA fighters are pretty tough. But out there in the wide wide world someone is theorizing and practing ways to become even better. That is the nature of things, you evolve or you die.
Currently MMA is the hot thing, just like karate before that or ninjutsu or kungfu or judo or whatever.
Next year someone will come along and show another way of doing things which will take the MMA community by surprice and then mindless people will scream about how ineffective MMA is and how XXX rules the world. Happened before, gonna happen again :D

Last thing, there are truely awesome TMA fighters out there, you just dont know about them as they dont put up videos on youtube or whatever. go find them and spar with them. If they are true fighters they will not hessitate, especially if your intentions are true about becoming better, and not some macho stunt.

[YungChun]

Why do some of you always want to make these discussions personal

Because the one who talks the loudest and the longest yet goes to such trouble to conceal what they can do and how they train comes off just a tad disingenuous..

You are new to sparring, apparently, so having recently discovered it you speak so loudly and with so much bluster and inane sarcasm, one can't help but find it amusing and finally annoying. Despite the fact that sparring IS an important *part* of MA you have positioned yourself as an extremist. You make such extreme and narrow assertions that few, even if dedicated, willing and able could follow them--including those posters who probably have been sparring since you were in your YJKYM diapers, proclaiming that sparring is bad for your kung fu.

You ARE asserting your unique viewpoint, an extreme viewpoint that leaves no room for middle ground and that viewpoint suggests we should only pay mind to those who can do "IT" whatever "IT" is--so show us or tell us what it is that YOU can do, if anything...

I for one don't believe you follow this absolutist path to the extreme you expound on... If you did half of what you say must be done you'd be a bloody mess and probably wouldn't be able to appear in court most of the time.. You speak in terms of black and white about a subject that has infinite shades of gray, turning whatever point you are trying to make into some kind of absurd and never ending, tiresome crusade--sparring--yes we get it, some of us do it and some don't give a crap--get over it...



It is the same for what it takes to develop significant fighting skills. What I do or what I can't do does not make any difference to the underlying discussion.

Of course it does Terence, because if you can't "DO IT", and by IT I mean WCK, then we shouldn't listen to you...


If you want to learn how to effectively train as a fighter, just do what the good fighters do, what the good fight trainers do, etc. They've identified the most effective training process.

So, "THEY" have developed the "most effective training process"? Who are they, do "THEY" do WCK? What is this unified "process" that EVERYONE who is good <please provide a list of "EVERYONE" by zip code if possible> is doing?

Hmmm is it Wing Chun? Have anything to do with Wing Chun? Even allow for the use of WCK?

Please tell us about this universal process and how YOU apply this process.


That's what I've been trying to do, and what I do. But don't listen to nonfighters, to theoreticians, to "masters", etc -- they don't and can't have answers. All they can do is point you in the wrong direction.

So don't listen to masters? Okay so all 'masters' are crap--got it... No your position isn't extreme... :rolleyes:

There are different levels of sparring, and training... There are different levels of fighters, different styles of fighters, different training goals, no one person or group has all the answers or all the best fighters or the only right METHOD of training... Self defence is about many other things as well, many other things to train yet you can only talk about dueling... Miopic indeed...

Many elements of modern combative training I am certain is not in your mix Terence, but that doesn't invalidate what you actually do, whatever that is.. Likewise, everyone trains at a level and with people they are comfortable with or are able to do/train with, stop coming off like you are the only one who ever sparred...

This forum is about WCK and the fact is that WCK takes many forms and is made up of people with different levels of experience and interests. Not everyone needs to beat the living crap out of each other on a daily basis to develop some WCK skill. Stop implying that unless everyone trains EXACTLY how you THINK they should that they are crap.. Some of them could probably whoop your butt and do WCK better than yourself, if you even do WCK, and here you are making judgments about them and talking down your nose to them on the net...

Get over yourself..

[t_niehoff]

Well, unfortunately it's really hard to differentiate the message from the messenger. It goes to credibility. I think that's why most everyone wants to check out what it is you do personally.

It's easy to dismiss these kind of questions saying they are ad hominem and that they don't address the substance of the argument.

However, the message does have more or less weight depending on whether it is coming from a pot-bellied armchair quarterback, or someone like Jason Delucia, who came on here once and had some discussions.


What's ironic is that some of you want me to provide proof, show what I can do, etc. when your "masters" (of pretend fighting) don't do any of that! But the difference is I'm not asking any of you to take my word for anything or hold myself out as an authority. I'm saying just the opposite -- go train with and talk to genuine, really good (proven) fighters and see how they train, then do what they do yourself. Use a proven method of training. That's what I've done and that's why I've reached the conclusions I have.



Your arguments about conditioning for fighting are valid. They are correct - this is why your average NCAA Div I wrestler is more effective in fighting scenarios than your average WCK "master".


That's only a part of the reason -- a WCK "master" doesn't have much in the way of skill. They can't. The process for developing fighting skill is universal. Your fighting skill comes primarily from fighting/sparring. Everything else is preparation for that activity. And a person's fighting skill level will correspond to the amount of time he's spent sparring. So how much skill can "master" have if "master" never spars (and certainly not against good people)? Little to none.



The wrestler functions on quotes from Dan Gable like "your conditioning is your best hold", rather than "go to center and dominate" or whatever and never condition themselves. If someone has 30% more strength, cardio, and a good understanding of striking and grappling, they are probably going to own your centerline, whether or not they can quote the correct elements of theory or not.


Theory is meaningless. All that matters is what you can do.



However, people still want to know what it is exactly that you do. How you have adapted your training based upon realistic exposure to fighters. Who you train with now. Stuff like that.


If you want to see what I do, how I train, etc. then visit me -- make the effort. If you don't want to make the effort then it's obviously not that important to you. You guys aren't going to believe me regardless of what I say. Next you'll want videos to prove what I'm saying is true, then you'll next say the vids are worked, etc. I'm not going to get into all of that. Seeing is believing. If you are that interested, come see me. I've had a few visitors. If you don't want to come to St. Louis, I'll be in LA next June. If you don't want to come, that's cool -- I don't care either way. But understand, I feel no need to prove anything to people on this forum. I'm sharing my views. Views that I know are in contrast to what most TMAists believe.

FWIW, my training brothers with Robert, Alan, Dave, etc., are all are pursuing the same sort of training regimen. We may have slightly different views, but we're all training with MMAists, cross-training, sparring with the best people we can, etc. This isn't unique to me by any means. Or unique to Robert's group. If you can't visit me, go visit them.



It may be something you're not willing to get into. Which is a personal choice.

If you want to know whether my views hold water, either visit me or, better still, go visit a good MMA gym, and spend the next month sparring. You'll see for yourself whether what I'm saying is true or not. I'll wager that anyone who does that is not going to come back on this forum and say that I'm mistaken. ;) Either way, the only way to find out is for you to do the work. If you don't want to do the work, that's fine by me. But you'll never get the answers without the work.

[t_niehoff]

Not interrely true.
Go watch joggers and you will see that most dont breath properly.


How do you know? If they can do the activity, then their breathing is fine.



Sometimes what the mind wants to do isnt the optimum way to perform.


You can only find the optimum way to perform by performing, and seeing the results of your performance.



Another example from running.
Observe how many tense their upper body parts when running, that is hardly the optimum way of moving but if they are not shown are better way, the body will continue to perform subpar.


All they ned to do is run more. Your body has a "natural wisdom" that will come out when you do something enough. Of course, it will help to have someone that knows what they are doing coach you. But this is the rub -- they need to know what is good and what is bad. Not from theory, but from experience themselves.



There is a whole science behind how to run depending on whether your sprinting, jogging or doing the marathon. Its not just a matter of going out to run.


You're intellectualizing the process. It's not that complicated. I ran cross-country in school, have run two marathons, know lots of runners, etc.



Same with MA, if you just spar without getting some theory you will properbly be able to do ok. If on the other hand you combine the two, you will in most likelyhood become much much better fighter. One does not exclude the other.

Frankly, people want to believe theory is important because they are of the mindset that what matters is what you know (and their nonfighting master of course knows!). It's not. It's what you can do. What makes one person a better basketball player or better tennis player or better boxer? It's not that they know something the other guy doesn't -- it's that they are better skilled (which includes perhaps having better attributes) than the other guy. And the skill comes from doing the activity. Is there knowledge involved -- of course. But theory is for beginners. It gives beginners some idea of what sort of things to do, some guidance, some plan of action. But that theory isn't "correct" -- theory never is and never can be correct. Theory is gradually replaced by experience, by habit, by skill.

[t_niehoff]

Because the one who talks the loudest and the longest yet goes to such trouble to conceal what they can do and how they train comes off just a tad disingenuous..


I've told you, I practice what I preach. I'm not concealing anything. If you want to see, pay me a visit. It's not my burden to make you happy.



You are new to sparring, apparently, so having recently discovered it you speak so loudly and with so much bluster and inane sarcasm, one can't help but find it amusing and finally annoying. Despite the fact that sparring IS an important *part* of MA you have positioned yourself as an extremist. You make such extreme and narrow assertions that few, even if dedicated, willing and able could follow them--including those posters who probably have been sparring since you were in your YJKYM diapers, proclaiming that sparring is bad for your kung fu.


My views are only extreme in the world of TMAs! In the world of functional martial arts, MMA, BJJ, muay thai, bosing, etc. my views are mundane.



You ARE asserting your unique viewpoint, an extreme viewpoint that leaves no room for middle ground and that viewpoint suggests we should only pay mind to those who can do "IT" whatever "IT" is--so show us or tell us what it is that YOU can do, if anything...


You don't need to look to me as an example, look to the good fighters, look at how they really train, what they say. It doesn't matter if you do WCK or boxing or wrestling, the process for developing skill is the same. Will doing forms make you a better boxer or wreslter? Then it won't help your WCK. Will doing loads of unrealistic drills help your boxing or wrestling? Then it won't help your WCK. What do I do? I try to train like they do.



I for one don't believe you follow this absolutist path to the extreme you expound on... If you did half of what you say must be done you'd be a bloody mess and probably wouldn't be able to appear in court most of the time.. You speak in terms of black and white about a subject that has infinite shades of gray, turning whatever point you are trying to make into some kind of absurd and never ending, tiresome crusade--sparring--yes we get it, some of us do it and some don't give a crap--get over it...


Why is it that although I repeat the same view, you still don't seem to get what I'm saying? It's not a matter of doing "some sparring". It's making sparring the core of your training. It is how you spar (the intensity level) and who you spar with.

Guess what? I get tired of the tiresome repetition of nonsense that I hear too -- and it's magnified because while you just hear me, 90% of what I hear is BS.



Of course it does Terence, because if you can't "DO IT", and by IT I mean WCK, then we shouldn't listen to you...

So, "THEY" have developed the "most effective training process"? Who are they, do "THEY" do WCK? What is this unified "process" that EVERYONE who is good <please provide a list of "EVERYONE" by zip code if possible> is doing?

Hmmm is it Wing Chun? Have anything to do with Wing Chun? Even allow for the use of WCK?

Please tell us about this universal process and how YOU apply this process.

So don't listen to masters? Okay so all 'masters' are crap--got it... No your position isn't extreme... :rolleyes:


If you want to be a good fighter, develop good fighting skills, it's easy to see the process -- all good, proven fighters are following it. They are making sparring the core of their training, focusing on conditioning, cross-training, etc. WCK is not "special" and there is no "other way" to develop fighting skill. The problem with TMAs, including WCK, is that their learning/training methods are antiquated, and were never that effective in the first place.



There are different levels of sparring, and training... There are different levels of fighters, different styles of fighters, different training goals, no one person or group has all the answers or all the best fighters or the only right METHOD of training... Self defence is about many other things as well, many other things to train yet you can only talk about dueling... Miopic indeed...


No, the process is the same -- if you want to learn and develop skill in BJJ, boxing, wrestling, or WCK you need to do certain things, follow a certain training process. How far you take that, how intensly you pursue it, etc. will vary with your goals -- but the training process doesn't change. The particulars of that process will vary.



Many elements of modern combative training I am certain is not in your mix Terence, but that doesn't invalidate what you actually do, whatever that is.. Likewise, everyone trains at a level and with people they are comfortable with or are able to do/train with, stop coming off like you are the only one who ever sparred...


You keep wanting to make this personal, and I take it you don't like my tone. As I said before, I am not holding myself out as an authority (I don't believe there are any authorities in WCK) or as an example for anyone. If people want an example of how to train, what to do, I say look to the experts, the proven fighters, proven trainers. Don't listen to people who have no real skiill. I understand you don't like it when I say things like that -- but it is the truth. Would anyone go to a BJJ school where the instructor had never rolled/sparred in his life? What would he know of BJJ? But this scenario is standard in WCK circles.



This forum is about WCK and the fact is that WCK takes many forms and is made up of people with different levels of experience and interests. Not everyone needs to beat the living crap out of each other on a daily basis to develop some WCK skill. Stop implying that unless everyone trains EXACTLY how you THINK they should that they are crap.. Some of them could probably whoop your butt and do WCK better than yourself, if you even do WCK, and here you are making judgments about them and talking down your nose to them on the net...

Get over yourself..

WCK is no different in terms of what it takes to develop skill (the process) than BJJ. Skill comes via sparring. That's it. If people don't want to spar, that's fine with me. But they'll never get skill and never get genuine knowledge/understanding of WCK. People of all walks of life go to BJJ schools and spar every single class.

The amusing part of your view is that you see sparring as something negative -- sparring is the WCK. That's the fun part. That's what everyone should be looking forward to. It's not the bitter medicine. ;)

[t_niehoff]

Sorry to pick on you again T


No worries. I never feel picked on.



How do you know ?
It may be the best way we know of today, or it may not.
But if you dont theorise and try to put that into practice, how do you progress ?


We know what works from results (in fighting). Modern fighters are using the same training process as modern athletes, which is the same process that sport science, motor skill science, etc. have identified and tested as how we humans best learn and develop physical skills.

Try this -- stop thinking in terms of WCK or TMAs. Look at what boxers and wreslters or basketball players do to learn/train in their arts. Follow the same process.



Look terrence, most agree with you that you need to spar. Most also agree that MMA fighters are pretty tough. But out there in the wide wide world someone is theorizing and practing ways to become even better. That is the nature of things, you evolve or you die.


What I'm talking about is just not the need to do some sparring -- but the need to revamp the whole WCK learning/training process. That traditional model of learning/training (the TMA model) is crap and produces crap. It's a really poor way to learn and develop skill. Of course, there will always be a very few (really talented people) that get good in spite of it. But for the overwhelming majority of us, it is crap. That's why with all the millions of TMAists we don't see any -- or, as I pointed out, a very, very few -- that have developed significant skills without cross-training and/or using the more modern training approach.

We can keep our heads buried in the sand, ignoring the lack of results, rationalizing away things, etc. or face reality.



Currently MMA is the hot thing, just like karate before that or ninjutsu or kungfu or judo or whatever.
Next year someone will come along and show another way of doing things which will take the MMA community by surprice and then mindless people will scream about how ineffective MMA is and how XXX rules the world. Happened before, gonna happen again :D
.

No it won't -- because what MMA fighters do is like the Borg, assimilate anything and everything they believe will give them an edge. If something else good comes along, they will incorporate it. If better ways of training comes along, they will incorporate them. This is what all competitive athletes do.



Last thing, there are truely awesome TMA fighters out there, you just dont know about them as they dont put up videos on youtube or whatever. go find them and spar with them. If they are true fighters they will not hessitate, especially if your intentions are true about becoming better, and not some macho stunt.

How do you know there are "awesome TMA fighters out there"? Have you seen them? Who have they fought? It's easy to proclaim that there are hidden great fighters. But in my view, that's BS. Anyone can make that claim. And it is easy to impress people with little skill with stunts, demos, etc.

Everyone has a natural level of fighitng ability, some more than others. But the only way to significantly develop that ability is via sparring -- the experience of the past 100 years has demonstrated that. If these masters are awesome, they got that way sparring with other really good people. Because that's the only way.

[Knifefighter]

Not interrely true.
Go watch joggers and you will see that most dont breath properly.

Sometimes what the mind wants to do isnt the optimum way to perform.


More theoretical B.S.

Almost everyone who runs or jogs breaths properly. The fact is that your body naturally adjusts to its ideal state in regards to form and breathing just from the practice of running. The more you run, the more economical your running becomes.

Don't believe me? Look through the research on what happens when you try to "train" breathing and running form through theorizations on what this proper form and breathing should be. You will find that it actually decreases performance.

How do good coaches know how to coach their runners? They look to what other successful runners do as well as keeping up with the most recent research in the field. Additionally, they were also successful (at some level) competitive runners themselves.

[Knifefighter]

But out there in the wide wide world someone is theorizing and practing ways to become even better. That is the nature of things, you evolve or you die.

This evolution is much more trial and error oriented, rather than coming about through theorizing. Most fighting innovations are discovered "accidentally" in training, rather than from some grand theory.

New innovations are developed mostly from "hmm... let me see what happens if I try this over here instead of over there" or "how can I stop him from doing this when I do that" or "hey... when I put my weight here, it stops him from doing that" type of stuff and are continually tested out in sparring and competition settings.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/economy.htm

Re breathing:

The Breathing Issue

Most elite athletes use a 2-2 breathing rhythm. That is they breathe in for two steps and they breathe out for two steps. The 2-2 breathing rhythm means you are taking 45 breaths (assume you now have a strike rate of 90) which is slow enough to allow for good depth of breathing. It is recommended to practice all kinds of breathing patterns, just to become familiar with them and to note your body's reaction. Try the 3-3 breathing rhythm, 4-4 breathing rhythm and try unequal breathing rhythms such as 3-2 and 2-3. All the athletes I work with (except the sprinters) use either a 2-2 or a 3-3 breathing rhythm. I personally use the 2-2 breathing rhythm starting the breathing cycle on the left foot. If you use the 2-2 breathing rhythm and you experience stitch then switch the breathing rhythm to start on the other foot or switch to a 3-3 breathing rhythm until the stitch subsides.

Long term analysis conducted by Jack Daniels has found that elite athletes in races up to and including the 10K use the 2-2 breathing rhythm at the start of the race and after completing about two-thirds of the race they switch to a 2-1 breathing rhythm. For races longer than 10k the 2-2 breathing rhythm is used for the whole distance, perhaps shifting to a 2-1 breathing rhythm in the last minute or two for the sprint finish. An important point is that your breathing rhythm will not only tell you how hard you are working but also allow you to control how hard you work.


and it doesn't even mention "****lek" or however it is spelled.

To say that a distance runner is just "breathing" is like saying a that soemone running the 100 in less than 10 seconds is just running...

[YungChun]

I've told you, I practice what I preach. I'm not concealing anything. If you want to see, pay me a visit. It's not my burden to make you happy.

I'd have been there already just to check out your physics defying biped spring loaded antigravity unit... :p Will be sure to come by if I am ever hanging in Missouri.. What is the address and is there a web site?


My views are only extreme in the world of TMAs! In the world of functional martial arts, MMA, BJJ, muay thai, boxing, etc. my views are mundane.

You're views are myopic, closed minded, brimming with disrespect and generally misleading despite the fact that, yes, sparring is good.. BUT it should be noted that in most self defense situations that happen in the street the scenario is NOT a duel between two trained fighters... In fact it's normally anything but.

Beyond that, your views are simply OFF in the view of any training venue that doesn't close at the end of the night with blood soaked, broken up students leaving the place in an ambulance.. The level of "intensity" whatever that means, that you imply is folks beating the snot out of each other each day, and that this is the only "real way" to train, learn and cultivate a martial art--that's a load of BS.

Aside from the fact that this idea is ridiculous and inaccurate it completely ignores something called perfection training and ANY specialized training done in WCK or other martial art... You feel these methods, ie, WCK concepts, Chi Sao and forms, et al, are crap... I think this shows that you don't "get" the system nor can do the system.... The system is the system, if you think it's crap then WHAT ARE YOU DOING CLAIMING TO BE INVOLVED WITH IT? The word ludicrous comes to mind.

Again why do the system at all if you feel this way? How can you claim to do the system if you feel this way? Are you resurrecting the holy grail of Wing Chun one post at a time?

My fighting experience was such that I found the training useful, not to mention fascinating. I can tell you that it worked for me and I was a better fighter for having trained it--and I'm not the only one..

Now don't give me this crap about not fighting good enough fighters, they were good enough to kick my ass at one time, and at a later time, were not.. This experience, MY EXPERIENCE as well as other peoples are JUST AS VALID AS YOURS.... Can you come to terms with that?


look to the good fighters, look at how they really train, what they say. It doesn't matter if you do WCK or boxing or wrestling, the process for developing skill is the same.

More distortions..
Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, WCK, Kali, etc, etc... All have DIFFERENT ways, techniques and methods of instilling core system attributes.... And guess what? They ALL SPAR!!!! Including WCK...

Hey wait a minute.... That's not true not all WCK folks spar hard... Ahhh, but the same is true for the other arts.... Some folks train in boxing for exercise and never spar or spar with VERY light contact.... NOT ALL practitioners SPAR HARD and draw blood... Pros DO NOT train at 100&#37; in Fighting in every training session or in any normal training session--they do perfection work and cardio.

Now I'll give you the fact that MORE boxers, for example, spar hard than do WCK folks, but this fact has NOTHING to do with the folks who DO and the ART ITSELF... The ART is the method both as a training model and as application model.


including WCK, is that their learning/training methods are antiquated, and were never that effective in the first place

You are in conflict.. You claim ownership of the “true structure” yet dismiss structure training… Good structure is enhanced by perfection work.. Drills, forms, Chi Sao, allow the student to cultivate and PERFECT key system attributes in a lower stress setting AND conditioned response training--one that can train contact reflexes in ways not possible under normal conditions..

This training allows one to FOCUS on a particular skillset, mechanic, technique or structure.. This is what the system is all about.. If you think the best way to cultivate said attributes is under high stress, and the student can ONLY learn by jumping into the fire then good for you… However common sense, science and personal experience says otherwise.


Will doing forms make you a better boxer or wrestler?

I don't know but I DO KNOW that my body learned many things from training the forms and I was able to use it... That's my experience and many others.. I take it that none of the training has helped you to fight better so again I ask: Why are you claiming to be involved with the system?


What do I do? I try to train like they do.

Right, you train BOXING... I thought so... Thanks for the clarification and good luck with that.. :D


It's making sparring the core of your training. It is how you spar (the intensity level) and who you spar with.

Well you never sparred the people I did so clearly you don't know what you're talking about and can't really fight.. See how ridiculous that sounds...

As was pointed out countless times.. These are completely false assertions..

The CORE training for most pros is CARDIO and PERFECTION WORK... They DO NOT beat the crap out of each other on a daily basis, otherwise they could not go 100% in their fights...

Hard sparring is good, Hard sparring is great.. We AGREE WITH YOU!!!!

BUT, beating the crap out of each other on a daily basis is asinine, and even more so as a CORE in a system that emphasizes specialized range training and perfection work--which you think is crap and yet you still claim to train the system.....


Guess what? I get tired of the tiresome repetition of nonsense that I hear too -- and it's magnified because while you just hear me, 90% of what I hear is BS.

Yes it is true there is a lot of BS.. . The problem is some of it came from you...

Yes, most WCK is crap... Most schools are crap... Most folks can't fight very well.
So what?

There is nothing anyone can do about that--it's the way it was intended from the beginning.. There are a few good ones... That's it...

And some folks will NEVER fight well no matter what you have them do... Want to have them spar full contact? Guess who won't be coming back to class the next day...

It's not about the art Terence it's about the people in the art.. If they take responsibility for their training and they have the right stuff, good things can happen... End of Story...


No, the process is the same

Wrong.


The particulars of that process will vary.

Right.


You keep wanting to make this personal

It's you Terence who are making this personal because you are holding your experience up above all others experiences... THAT makes these comments personal and subjective and somewhat obnoxious to boot.


The amusing part of your view is that you see sparring as something negative --

According to who--you?

Sparring--depending on how you define it--is the crucible, the test and refinement laboratory... It does not however represent the core attribute/skill cultivation and perfection syllabus.

----------------------

This is extremely tiresome... :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/economy.htm

Re breathing:

The Breathing Issue

Most elite athletes use a 2-2 breathing rhythm. That is they breathe in for two steps and they breathe out for two steps. The 2-2 breathing rhythm means you are taking 45 breaths (assume you now have a strike rate of 90) which is slow enough to allow for good depth of breathing. It is recommended to practice all kinds of breathing patterns, just to become familiar with them and to note your body's reaction. Try the 3-3 breathing rhythm, 4-4 breathing rhythm and try unequal breathing rhythms such as 3-2 and 2-3. All the athletes I work with (except the sprinters) use either a 2-2 or a 3-3 breathing rhythm. I personally use the 2-2 breathing rhythm starting the breathing cycle on the left foot. If you use the 2-2 breathing rhythm and you experience stitch then switch the breathing rhythm to start on the other foot or switch to a 3-3 breathing rhythm until the stitch subsides.

Long term analysis conducted by Jack Daniels has found that elite athletes in races up to and including the 10K use the 2-2 breathing rhythm at the start of the race and after completing about two-thirds of the race they switch to a 2-1 breathing rhythm. For races longer than 10k the 2-2 breathing rhythm is used for the whole distance, perhaps shifting to a 2-1 breathing rhythm in the last minute or two for the sprint finish. An important point is that your breathing rhythm will not only tell you how hard you are working but also allow you to control how hard you work.


and it doesn't even mention "****lek" or however it is spelled.

To say that a distance runner is just "breathing" is like saying a that soemone running the 100 in less than 10 seconds is just running...

Hahahaaa... LOL @ purposely trying to breath on when a certain foot hits the ground. No serious runner or coach takes that into consideration.

Runners may breath that way, but it is purely instinctual.

As yes, they are "just breathing". Distance runner run, their breathing patterns come from that. A coach who tries to change his runners' breathing patterns decreases their performance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hahahaaa... LOL @ purposely trying to breath on when a certain foot hits the ground. No serious runner or coach takes that into consideration.

Runners may breath that way, but it is purely instinctual.

As yes, they are "just breathing". Distance runner run, their breathing patterns come from that. A coach who tries to change his runners' breathing patterns decreases their performance.

Stick to MMA.
:D

[Knifefighter]

Some folks train in boxing for exercise and never spar or spar with VERY light contact....

And those folks don't become good boxers.

[Knifefighter]

Stick to MMA.
:D

Ummm... I was a runnning coach for 20 years and have a degree in exercise science.

What is your background for coaching runners?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ummm... I was a runnning coach for 20 years and have a degree in exercise science.

Then you should know better.
Or your head is so far up your own arse, you can't see the truth from your own predisposed ideas.

[Knifefighter]

Then you should know better.
Or your head is so far up your own arse, you can't see the truth from your own predisposed ideas.

Edited by the reformed kinder, gentler KF

[sanjuro_ronin]

Read the research. Talk to coaches and runners at the elite levels. you will find out whose head is up his a$$.

Oh, yeah...and get an actual degree in exercise science rather than a "personal trainer" certification course that my 12 year old nephew could pass.

Whatever, **** you like the sound of your own voice...

And its arse, not ass, peasant.:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

And since you asked who taught me how about that stuff, look up Carlos Lopes and Fernando Mamede.

[jesper]

New innovations are developed mostly from "hmm... let me see what happens if I try this over here instead of over there" or "how can I stop him from doing this when I do that" or "hey... when I put my weight here, it stops him from doing that" type of stuff and are continually tested out in sparring and competition settings.

So you just theorized and tried it out. You just proved my point knifefighter:)

Again theorý and practice is not mutually exclusive. First you say hey what happens if I do this, then you test it.
If it works, great
If not, you discard it

[Knifefighter]

you can't see the truth from your own predisposed ideas.

I am always open to the truth, when it actually is the truth (when it works).

In that light, can you please site the research showing the following:

1- That the elite runners studied by Daniels had ever been trained to use these breathing patterns vs. developing them instinctually through their running training.

2- That changing runners' breathing patterns improves their race performances.

I subscribe to a number of peer-reviewed excercise science journals and all the data I have seen seems to show that interfering with runners' natural stride and breathing patterns decreases their race performance- especially in distance runners.

[Knifefighter]

So you just theorized and tried it out. You just proved my point knifefighter:)

Again theor&#253; and practice is not mutually exclusive. First you say hey what happens if I do this, then you test it.
If it works, great
If not, you discard it

If that is what you call theorizing, then I will agree with you (vs. some grand unifying theory that is developed without doing testing).

Theorize, attempt, test under pressure, revise, repeat.

Real world athletic endeavors (including fighting) = 90&#37; doing/5% theorizing.
TMA theoretical fighters = 5% doing/95% theorizing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If that is what you call theorizing, then I will agree with you (vs. some grand unifying theory that is developed without doing testing).

Theorize, attempt, test under pressure, revise, repeat.

Real world athletic endeavors (including fighting) = 90% doing/5% theorizing.
TMA theoretical fighters = 5% doing/95% theorizing.

According to THIS post, I don't need to give out the info you requested in the earlier one since, according to you:Real world athletic endeavors (including fighting) = 90% doing/5% theorizing.

Again, look up the names I gave you of MY coaches and see what THEY have done.

[Knifefighter]

According to THIS post, I don't need to give out the info you requested in the earlier one since, according to you:Real world athletic endeavors (including fighting) = 90&#37; doing/5% theorizing.

Again, look up the names I gave you of MY coaches and see what THEY have done.

If they are teaching their runners breathing cadences, they are simply teaching them something that would be developed naturally through running practice.

[jesper]

Ofcourse you need to test your theory, otherwise your deluting yourself and more importantly your students.

My problem with many in the MMA community is that they keep telling me that if I dont go into a sports ring or do a youtube video, then I dont know what im talking about.
Lots of people dont have the desire to be famous or showoff, so they spar privately and often with many different styles to see how they fare. Does that make them any less able to fight:rolleyes:

Same with the socalled Traditional approach.
I was taught both in WT and MT that the traditional way is to go out and see if what you have been taught actually works.

Sadly though it seems that for the last 30-40 years many people have stopped sparring and instead come up with lots of assumptions about how things are suppose to be. Somehow that has become synonymus with the traditional way.

Dont know about the rest of the world but here in denmark WT was infamous because our teacher told us to go out and test what was being told, so we went to many schools and told them to show us their stuff and also spar them when possible.
Much like MMA is doing today, but I must say, generally with a more humble approach since we also quickly learned that the really good instructors generally didnt want to talk to you or share information if you started by calling them names:)

Heh just remembered a time I went to see an instructor who wanted to demonstrate a technic on me.
When he said, if I hit you like this you will counter with ?? so I am open to do XX (sorry dont remember names).
I just said, no I wont. If you hit me like this I will pull my gun and shoot you. He just didnt get the message I was trying to tell him:D
People who have sparred or fought alot will understand my analogy im sure.

[planetwc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Mamede


And since you asked who taught me how about that stuff, look up Carlos Lopes and Fernando Mamede.

[anerlich]

Long term analysis conducted by Jack Daniels

I've conducted a fairly long term analysis of Jack Daniels myself. :cool:


do a youtube video

I would have thought that after the recent TMA vs MMA "event" captured on video and all over several MA forums, people would start stearing clear of such things. The unbelievers see what they want anyway. There was even one TMAer who thought that Springer came close to killing Osiris while he was getting his head pounded into the pavement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Mamede

That is one of them, though Carlos was better, much better teacher too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If they are teaching their runners breathing cadences, they are simply teaching them something that would be developed naturally through running practice.

Well yes, that is one way to look at it, no one teaches how to breathe UNNATURALLY.
And over time anything trained becomes natural.
I personally have not met any Kenyan coach, but a friend of mine at York University has and he says they teach specific breathing methods to their runners, perhaps due to high altitude.
No I didn't ask him which ones, it wasn't something the interested me at the time, though looking back now, I should have.

In regards to what I DO or don't, I try not to use myself as an example, wither good or bad , for many reasons, no man is an island and I know of many that suceed dispite of what they do, not because of it, so to site what I have done really means very little.
Besides, its all ancient history for me anyways so its not really relevant to the now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trying to get back on topic, since I helped derail it a bit, If you don't teat what you learn and are taught, you will never know if it works for YOU.

There are many tried and true theories that pan out almost 100% of the time, but you still have to put them to the test for YOU.

Assuming they work because A,B,C and D made it work ignores the fact they they MADE it work.
And the only way to MAKE somethign work is to train it as close to the context in which you want/need it to work.

That means fighting, or sparring if you prefer, it also means competition.

[YungChun]

Many martial arts traditional or otherwise teach breathing of various kinds.. Most students do not naturally use the breath correctly in fighting. Coach Scott Sonnon is big in this area and coaches folks from a variety of arts and he also competes <and wins> in reality based fighting venues.

Some of the problems with Wing Chun folks is that they:

1. Rarely apply power in their moves.. This has a ripple effect that changes how everything works, or doesn't work--distancing, power, mechanics, follow-up, control, all go out the window. Training moves with no contact or very light contact is like training a disease.. It may have a place in a demo or with someone you don't know, etc, but for training it's really bad news.

2. Spend too much time training *in contact* or in bridge range.. Tactile sensitivity is at the core of the system, yet in real fighting one must start and be comfortable in no contact range--the outside... To learn how to enter and fight starting from no contact one must train visual sensitivity in order to enter and fight from no contact ranges... Too many WCK folks don't do this realistically or at all.

3. Train against unrealistic attacks.. Like in some Aikido, the "attacker" stands there with their fist extended waiting for the "defender" to execute their ferocious "counters" to the "attack".. The end result is training to counter a punch that never existed, from too far away and with no power, against no real resistance.. Bad news again...

4. Train only against other WCK people doing exactly the same things <wrong> that they are.. <see above>...

5. Talk about the concepts of the system yet don’t follow them in training and never actually apply them in a realistic manner against resisting opponents..

6. Are not familiar with the limitations of Chi Sao as a training drill and try to “win” any which way they can. This results in lessons that are never learned and therefore can never translate to application.

7. Have no fighting experience or sparring experience coming in to the art or while training the art and so have no realistic reference point to gauge what they are training and learning..

[sanjuro_ronin]

All 7 points can be found in many systems, not just WC, that tend to "stick to their own" and forget that CONTACT must be made for training to be real.

The degree of contact is a point of contention for some, case in point Terrance advocating full contact, high intensity training all the time.
While REGULAR hard contact is a must and full contact is need to be done as much as one can PERSONALLY stand it, contact of the degree that cause the opponent to react in a TRUE and HONEST manner, MUST be done everytime one fights/spars.

All "ranges" must be addressed and, if you preach "realisim", practical edged and impact weapons must be addressed.

[t_niehoff]

All 7 points can be found in many systems, not just WC, that tend to "stick to their own" and forget that CONTACT must be made for training to be real.

The degree of contact is a point of contention for some, case in point Terrance advocating full contact, high intensity training all the time.


Stop misquoting me.

Let me try one more time to explain this in as simple as terms as I can.

When people really fight, they are going to be hard-pressed: both opponent's will be moving/acting at 100% speed/power/intensity, really trying to put the hurt on the other. It's in that environment that we need to be able to operate. Our body is limited in how it can move (and the things it can do), react, respond, etc. at that intensity (or even be ready to move at that intensity). So to practice mechanics, ways of moving, techniques, tactics, etc. that will fail at 100% is pointless. Doing that is just training to fail. Most of what I see in WCK circles is just training to fail.

So you need to begin with that environment -- seeing for yourself how your body can really move in that environment, how you can move at 100% (your fighting intensity) while your opponent is too, etc. The only way to do that is to work in that environment, to spar at 100%. Lots of stuff sounds great, looks great, can be demonstrated at lower intensities ("internal power", etc.) but when the sh1t hits the fan, and the intensity goes to 100%, all of that stuff fails. The silly theory fails. This is why the Dog Brothers are right -- if you see it taught, you need to first see it fought. You need to see that it works at 100% -- and not down the line, in the future, etc. but before you even do it, before you waste your time practicing it, etc. If we used that standard in WCK, most people would be teaching very little.

You don't need to spar 100% "all the time" and that's not all you do (or even can do). But that is at the core of everything you do. When it isn't the core of what you do, unrealistic things begin to creep in to your game. Unrealistic practice breeds unrealistic nonsense. If all you do and have ever done is unrealistic practice - chi sao, kiu sao, light sparring, etc. - you only develop the ability to do unrealistic things in unrealistic environments. And you become a WCK master. ;)

How you train is how you will act. Our bodies are naturally lazy -- they will find the easiest (most efficient) way of doing something and will adjust how it does things to the load placed on it. If you don't regularly and routinely work under that load, you will not - and cannot - develop the ability to work well under that load. Theoretical nonfighters like to believe that they can pactice at lower intensities and then "step it up" should they ever really need to do it. That won't work. That is training to fail.




While REGULAR hard contact is a must and full contact is need to be done as much as one can PERSONALLY stand it, contact of the degree that cause the opponent to react in a TRUE and HONEST manner, MUST be done everytime one fights/spars.

All "ranges" must be addressed and, if you preach "realisim", practical edged and impact weapons must be addressed.

A person can't react in a "TRUE and HONEST" manner to movements/attacks/etc. that are not genuinely true and honest (as a person would really throw them in a fight). You will act differently when I am really trying to knock your head off and when I am just throwing a zippy punch. This is just natural and it can't be over-ridden. It's hard-wired in us. In fact, you can't even move in a true and honest way unless you are moving at 100% -- as your body will move differently at lower intensitities.

You see, what you want to do is always train consistently, so that you body is always moving, reacting, etc. as it would at 100%. But, when we aren't at 100%, our bodies will naturally move, react, etc. differently. The mechanics may be close, but they will be different. You can't run with the same mechanics at 100% and at 50% -- the intensity changes the mechanics (the motor program).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes they do. They train longer, harder, put themselves under more stress, more difficult situations, etc. As Mike Tyson said, "fighting is the easy part, it's the training that is hard."

Here you suggest that Pro fighters train and spar 100% ALL the time.
This was a response to my post stating that they DON'T train 100% all the time, but they do cycle it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A person can't react in a "TRUE and HONEST" manner to movements/attacks/etc. that are not genuinely true and honest (as a person would really throw them in a fight). You will act differently when I am really trying to knock your head off and when I am just throwing a zippy punch. This is just natural and it can't be over-ridden. It's hard-wired in us. In fact, you can't even move in a true and honest way unless you are moving at 100% -- as your body will move differently at lower intensitities.

I am not arguing that, I am arguing you saying that it has to be done ALL the time.
It doesn't.
Scrimmage in Pro Football for example.

Look at the "ultimate fighter" show, they go all out all the time?
No.
The injury ratio would be to high.

[t_niehoff]

Here you suggest that Pro fighters train and spar 100% ALL the time.
This was a response to my post stating that they DON'T train 100% all the time, but they do cycle it.


No -- I am saying exactly what Tyson is saying: the training itself (to be successful) needs to be harder than the competition. Ali and Rickson have said the same thing. You win the fight in the gym, not the ring (or the street).

[t_niehoff]

I am not arguing that, I am arguing you saying that it has to be done ALL the time.
It doesn't.
Scrimmage in Pro Football for example.

Look at the "ultimate fighter" show, they go all out all the time?
No.
The injury ratio would be to high.

People can do limited amounts of lower intensity sparring to, for example, work on certain things -- provided they do lots of high intensity sparring.

Pro football players *know* what works and doesn't work at high intensity, know how their bodies best function at full intensity, etc. because they do much of their training and playing at that level. So do all good athletes, regardless of their sport/activity. If they want to practice new plays, new moves, etc. they can lower the intensity. But then they need to practice it at full intensity to make it work.

I see amatuer and pro MMA fighters train for myself. I have seen pro boxers train for myself. What I am saying is that if a person wants to develop good fighting skills, look to good fighters and train good fighters -- and do what they do (not what you believe they do based on TV shows). That's a simple recipe for success. The recipe for failure is to follow the advice of people who aren't good fighters and haven't trained good fighters. Go seek out the experts for yourself and see for yourself. That's what I've done. If someone has different experiences, so be it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People can do limited amounts of lower intensity sparring to, for example, work on certain things -- provided they do lots of high intensity sparring.

Pro football players *know* what works and doesn't work at high intensity, know how their bodies best function at full intensity, etc. because they do much of their training and playing at that level. So do all good athletes, regardless of their sport/activity. If they want to practice new plays, new moves, etc. they can lower the intensity. But then they need to practice it at full intensity to make it work.

I see amatuer and pro MMA fighters train for myself. I have seen pro boxers train for myself. What I am saying is that if a person wants to develop good fighting skills, look to good fighters and train good fighters -- and do what they do (not what you believe they do based on TV shows). That's a simple recipe for success. The recipe for failure is to follow the advice of people who aren't good fighters and haven't trained good fighters. Go seek out the experts for yourself and see for yourself. That's what I've done. If someone has different experiences, so be it.

Bro, I boxed at Sully's gym in toronto.
I have not only seen pro's train, but some of the best.
The cycle their intensity coming into a match, this is common place.
6-8 weeks depending on their schedule.
Some even take out sparring in the last week/few days before a match, or make sure its as "risk free" as can be.

If you Google Sully's Gym you can see some of the fighters that have past through there.
heck, do a search on youtube and you can see pro boxers training for fights and make not thet they do NOT go full intensity all the time.

Its just not done at the level were one shot can cause postponment of a fight due to injury.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What's the difference between a theoretician's take on pro training regimens and getting beyond the theory and back to reality about pro training regimens?

The last post on this thread before mine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What's the difference between a theoretician's take on pro training regimens and getting beyond the theory and back to reality about pro training regimens?

The last post on this thread before mine.

Mine was the last post before yours, what is your point?

[Wayfaring]

No -- I am saying exactly what Tyson is saying: the training itself (to be successful) needs to be harder than the competition. Ali and Rickson have said the same thing. You win the fight in the gym, not the ring (or the street).

Most of those quotes reference the amount of effort it takes in CONDITIONING to be in top competition fight shape. Not taking on several people daily tougher than your opponent. Or sparring harder than you will in the match.

Good fighter programs have top level conditioning programs and top level sparring cycling up 6-8 weeks as SR says. To be fair I think when TN is talking about sparring at 100% he really means doing the same things you would at full out war pace but cycling it for training. In contrast to only going lite.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of those quotes reference the amount of effort it takes in CONDITIONING to be in top competition fight shape. Not taking on several people daily tougher than your opponent. Or sparring harder than you will in the match.

Good fighter programs have top level conditioning programs and top level sparring cycling up 6-8 weeks as SR says. To be fair I think when TN is talking about sparring at 100% he really means doing the same things you would at full out war pace but cycling it for training. In contrast to only going lite.

Well, if that is what he meant, then I am sorry for repeating My point over and over again.

If Terrance thinks that when I said " hard enough contact to keep the reactions true and honest", that I meant lite, allw me to rephrase.
Short of taking your partners head off, contact has to be hard enough to make him react in the correct manner.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mine was the last post before yours, what is your point?



***MY POINT was that you made sense and Terence was stuck in LA LA land.

[sanjuro_ronin]

***MY POINT was that you made sense and Terence was stuck in LA LA land.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

What you translate to fighting depends on what you have available for translation.

Most MAs, Traditional or otherwise, claim to teach Self-defense. Looks good at first glance...


Interestingly enough, social cognitive theory adopts a heirarchy of stress responses (this heirarchy is also found in some paramedic textbooks in the section such as "well-being of the paramedic: dealing with stress")

The basic heirarchy is:
A) Self Defense
B) Coping Mechanisms
C) Competent Reaction
D) Masterful Adaptation

So, most if not all martial arts claim to "teach" the most basic method of dealing with stress. Ready for that second look yet? ;)

IMO, to be prepared "for the street," something more than self-defense needs to be addressed. At least some coping mechanisms, no? Learning how to survive a mugging by tossing your wallet on the ground and running, for instance?

To bring any MA to a competitive level, I'd say that competent reaction needs to be addressed in training.

So, when it comes to "translating" Wing Chun training into fighting, consider what it is that you have available for translation before attempting to do so... unless you've attained mastery - then you can do more than translate, you can communicate fluently in the language of your choice. :)

CSP

P.S. A lot of Traditional arts have the above heirarchy, but for us Wetern Yokels it's often hard to recognize because we're mesmerized by all the weird foreign words. MMAs dispense with the weird words, which makes it attractive to the West. Though the dish may be different, it's still cooking, though. ;)

[t_niehoff]

Most of those quotes reference the amount of effort it takes in CONDITIONING to be in top competition fight shape. Not taking on several people daily tougher than your opponent. Or sparring harder than you will in the match.


In a way, yes, but there is more to it. You can't spar "harder" than you will in the match because whenever you spar/fight you are always doing the best you can. But you can change some variables to make your sparring more difficult.



Good fighter programs have top level conditioning programs and top level sparring cycling up 6-8 weeks as SR says. To be fair I think when TN is talking about sparring at 100% he really means doing the same things you would at full out war pace but cycling it for training. In contrast to only going lite.

That's closer to what I mean. I am saying to make sparring at 100% (the intensity we will really fight at) the core of our training and to have everything else revolve around that. This does not mean that this is all you should do (far from it) nor does it mean that you can't lower the intensity at times. But what you need to do to develop good fighting skill is spar at 100% regularly, frequently, and with good people. That is the core. And it is what all good fighters do and what good fight trainers do. Everything else you do in training will be informed by that -- by your results. Your development, your skill level, will directly correspond to the amount of time you've spent doing just that. If you don't do it, you won't - and can't - have much in the way of fighting skill. The more you do it, the better you will get. Stop doing it, and your skill declines.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's closer to what I mean. I am saying to make sparring at 100% (the intensity we will really fight at) the core of our training and to have everything else revolve around that. This does not mean that this is all you should do (far from it) nor does it mean that you can't lower the intensity at times. But what you need to do to develop good fighting skill is spar at 100% regularly, frequently, and with good people. That is the core. And it is what all good fighters do and what good fight trainers do. Everything else you do in training will be informed by that -- by your results. Your development, your skill level, will directly correspond to the amount of time you've spent doing just that. If you don't do it, you won't - and can't - have much in the way of fighting skill. The more you do it, the better you will get. Stop doing it, and your skill declines.

In that we are in agreement.
Cycled sparring intensity, like any other type of cycling also alllows you to avoid./break through plateus and over-training.

[Knifefighter]

Here's some "light" boxing sparring:

Tyson getting dropped during sparring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O--qqlE1oI8&mode=related&search=

Floyd Mayweather (who has to lie down and rest afterwards):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQL0aqEzh8&mode=related&search=

James Toney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKArp0h3-Tk&mode=related&search=

Manny Pacquiao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwA4Cs1y-I&mode=related&search=

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's some "light" boxing sparring:

Tyson getting dropped during sparring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O--qqlE1oI8&mode=related&search=

Floyd Mayweather (who has to lie down and rest afterwards):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQL0aqEzh8&mode=related&search=

James Toney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKArp0h3-Tk&mode=related&search=

Manny Pacquiao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwA4Cs1y-I&mode=related&search=

And they were training for...*gasp* a fight perhaps?

:rolleyes:

Oh wait you are right EVERYONE trains full force, full contact, full intensity EVERY FREAKING time they spar.
What was I thinking ???

[t_niehoff]

And they were training for...*gasp* a fight perhaps?

:rolleyes:


Roll your eyes all you want -- it just shows you don't get it. They were TRAINING. Do you understand? TRAINING. If you are not training for a fight, to fight, then you are not doing martial arts -- you're just playing around. And you're not developing functional fighting skills. Everytime they enter the gym they train the same way.



Oh wait you are right EVERYONE trains full force, full contact, full intensity EVERY FREAKING time they spar.
What was I thinking ???

You were thinking that you knew how real fighters trained, and you were wrong. Do they train full contact, full intensity every time they spar? No. Just most of the time. ;) And it is at the core of their training.

Why don't you do what I've done and what Dale has done and many others have done -- actually take your ass down to a good MMA school and train with some really good fighters, work with some excellent, proven fight trainers and see for yourself how they train?

[t_niehoff]

In that we are in agreement.
Cycled sparring intensity, like any other type of cycling also alllows you to avoid./break through plateus and over-training.

No, I'm not talking about "cycled sparring intensity". I'm saying that you want 100% sparring most of the time, and make it the core of what you do. You may lower the intensity at times to warm up, to work on certain things, to keep training while injured, etc. but for the most part you want to train at the intensity that you want to perform at. Train as you will fight.

You might want to visit Steve Morris' website

http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/

In my view, this guy has got it right.

[YungChun]

Train as you will fight.
I assume, as was seen in the clips, the leaning on the opponent, to rest, covering passively, taking then giving... Are NOT things you advocate Terence?

I have a quesiton for you Terence re sparring or how you see sparring as you do it... When you spar--ready go--HAJIME! Are you looking to finish ASAP, in other words enter and finish, or are you looking to feel him out, test his reactions, and in general take your time?

Also, as was seen in the boxing clips there were many times when the fighters rested, took shots, just covered... Is this, in addition to the above "stylistic" choices how you spar, or advocate sparring, or are you talking more about REALLY using 100&#37; intensity and trying to finish him off as soon as humanly possibe IF possible.. Also are you mainly looking to finish standing or on the ground, or you don't care?

[Liddel]

God Damm... Beating down this door again.

While i agree with terrence on the active use of what you are learning, in VT's case, being more consistent, sparring under preasure and regularly. Its not the be all and end all.

A balance is needed. As far as some of the things you say Terrence you are a product of the people around you. IMO all MMA fighters do not train the same way as you, there are similarities of course. All one needs to do is watch a series of TUF and you realise that yes they activly do what you advocate. But NOT all the time. They are human like the rest of us. They go light at times, they abstain from heavy contact before fights, they even cry after loosing on occasion.

Your making out like every MMA guy has the ONE and ONLY true way of training down pat. But there is so much diversity, there can be and are exceptions to the rule.

Your view is valid IMO no doubt, but there are other sides to the coin also that are in fact reflected by proven fighters outside your immediate circle.
Recognise this already, these "debates" are getting OLD, same goes for those that think hes completly wrong.

Get some balance here for crying out loud.

I have friends that i spar with FULL CONTACT they were taught to box by a good boxer friend of mine who taught them by just sparring. Ive knocked them down many times and i have more over all 'technical ability'....proven by doing..... and here i am, mostly a theorician... LOL.

Just doing aint good enough, you need balance !

Oh yeah and on the breathing front....dont know about running but any free diver thats trying to go to huge depths..has to engage in breathing trainnig and CANNOT aquire the right breathing habbits just from doing !

So its all dependent on context isnt it ?

[t_niehoff]

I assume, as was seen in the clips, the leaning on the opponent, to rest, covering passively, taking then giving... Are NOT things you advocate Terence?


It's easy to say that a person shouldn't do those things, but that overlooks the reality of the matter. Depending upon what happens, like how long the fight goes on, you may find the need to do these sorts of things. My view is that instead of starting with a POV of what you "should" do, find out for yourself what you can do and what you need to do. That only comes from doing it.



I have a quesiton for you Terence re sparring or how you see sparring as you do it... When you spar--ready go--HAJIME! Are you looking to finish ASAP, in other words enter and finish, or are you looking to feel him out, test his reactions, and in general take your time?


It depends.

You see, in theory it sounds great to say "you should enter and finish ASAP" but the reality of fighting is not so clear. If he is any good, he isn't going to just let you enter (and finish). Fighting is opportunistic. Like anything else, there needs to be the opening for you -- if it is not there, and you try to enter, you will suffer. If the opening is not there, then you need to create one, and that may entail feeling him out, testing his reactions, etc. When the opening is there, you take it. Sometimes the path is short, sometimes it is longer.

BTW, when I talk about "entering"I mean entering into and staying in contact with the opponent (the clinch).



Also, as was seen in the boxing clips there were many times when the fighters rested, took shots, just covered... Is this, in addition to the above "stylistic" choices how you spar, or advocate sparring, or are you talking more about REALLY using 100% intensity and trying to finish him off as soon as humanly possibe IF possible.. Also are you mainly looking to finish standing or on the ground, or you don't care?

What I mean by 100% isn't that you are moving as fast, powerfully, etc. as humanly possible (going bezerko) but that you are moving in a way that corresponds exactly to how you will really move in fighting -- striking as you will really strike (same speed, power, etc.), defending as you will really defend, shooting as you will really shoot, sprawling as you will really sprawl, passing the guard as you will really pass, going for subs as you will really use them, etc.

As I personally am much more comfortable and skilled on my feet (I see myself first and foremost as a WCK practitioner), that's the game I try to impose on my opponents. In contrast, one of the guys I train with, who is an ex-Div 1 wrestler, has a different game and uses WCK as a means to enter GNP. WCK provides a skill set; how we use it is up to the individual.

[YungChun]

It's easy to say that a person shouldn't do those things, but that overlooks the reality of the matter. Depending upon what happens, like how long the fight goes on, you may find the need to do these sorts of things. My view is that instead of starting with a POV of what you "should" do, find out for yourself what you can do and what you need to do. That only comes from doing it.

Highly venue dependant. The rules of the game...



You see, in theory it sounds great to say "you should enter and finish ASAP" but the reality of fighting is not so clear. If he is any good, he isn't going to just let you enter (and finish). Fighting is opportunistic. Like anything else, there needs to be the opening for you -- if it is not there, and you try to enter, you will suffer. If the opening is not there, then you need to create one, and that may entail feeling him out, testing his reactions, etc. When the opening is there, you take it. Sometimes the path is short, sometimes it is longer.

BTW, when I talk about "entering"I mean entering into and staying in contact with the opponent (the clinch).

No different IMO than a grappler who will enter sooner rather than later..

100&#37; intent and energy to do the above ASAP given whatever the limits and take them out ASAP is what I mean.. Like Wong said hesitation can kill you and a fast start timing IME is helpful...

[t_niehoff]

Highly venue dependant. The rules of the game...


Generally, it has been my experience that people who don't - and can't - play the game, and so don't and can't understand it, are the ones that always talk about the limitations of the rules. ;)

I am always amused that people who think they can do better and, of course, know better than genuine, proven, highly skilled fighters. Those poor guys with all their fight experience, with all their great coaching, with all their athletic prowess, etc. just continue to "get away" with all kinds of things because the "rules" allow them to. Why don't you do them and the world a favor by visiting them and showing them the errors of their ways?

You might find out that when you have fighting skills, you can more or less fight by any rules. And that when you don't have the fighting skills - like most people in TMAs - you can't fight with or without rules.

But, of course, you ahve a theory of how to really fight. ;)



No different IMO than a grappler who will enter sooner rather than later..


They enter as soon as they can and no earlier. :) Talking about it and doing it -- especially being able to do it against good people -- are very different things.



100&#37; intent and energy to do the above ASAP given whatever the limits and take them out ASAP is what I mean.. Like Wong said hesitation can kill you and a fast start timing IME is helpful...

Lots of things can be helpful. Taking out good fighters ASAP isn't as easy as you believe. Do you think boxers, muay thai fighters, MMAists, etc. want the fight to go longer than seconds? Don't you think they'd like to win ASAP too? But, with all their skills, experience, athleticism, etc. they can't do it (at least not consistently and regularly) but you beleive *you* can? Or that WCK people can? LOL! Fantasy is a wonderful thing.

[Knifefighter]

100&#37; intent and energy to do the above ASAP given whatever the limits and take them out ASAP is what I mean..

The problem is when two people are relatively evenly matched, ASAP can be quite a bit longer than just a minute or two.

A pro boxer can usually take out a novice boxer in less than 30 seconds, but will need a much longer time against another pro.

[YungChun]

Generally, it has been my experience that people who don't - and can't - play the game, and so don't and can't understand it, are the ones that always talk about the limitations of the rules. ;)

I am always amused that people who think they can do better and, of course, know better than genuine, proven, highly skilled fighters. Those poor guys with all their fight experience, with all their great coaching, with all their athletic prowess, etc. just continue to "get away" with all kinds of things because the "rules" allow them to. Why don't you do them and the world a favor by visiting them and showing them the errors of their ways?

You might find out that when you have fighting skills, you can more or less fight by any rules. And that when you don't have the fighting skills - like most people in TMAs - you can't fight with or without rules.

But, of course, you ahve a theory of how to really fight. ;)

Regardless of your sarcasm and thinly veiled insults the rule set DOES define how the fights will evolve... Folks train differently based on rule sets. I have actually competed in tournements and I know that training must reflect the rules of the game.



They enter as soon as they can and no earlier. :) Talking about it and doing it -- especially being able to do it against good people -- are very different things.

And just because you can do it against skilled person A does NOT mean you'll be able to do it against skilled person B.



Lots of things can be helpful. Taking out good fighters ASAP isn't as easy as you believe.

Stop putting words in my mouth.. Where did I say it was EASY?


Do you think boxers, muay thai fighters, MMAists, etc. want the fight to go longer than seconds? Don't you think they'd like to win ASAP too? But, with all their skills, experience, athleticism, etc. they can't do it (at least not consistently and regularly) but you beleive *you* can? Or that WCK people can? LOL! Fantasy is a wonderful thing.
This is about intent and focus.. I had a boxer, a pretty good one, as a student.. He thought I and the system had something to offer and that means a hell of a lot more to me that your generalized wiseazz quips.

[t_niehoff]

The problem is when two people are relatively evenly matched, ASAP can be quite a bit longer than just a minute or two.

A pro boxer can usually take out a novice boxer in less than 30 seconds, but will need a much longer time against another pro.


Exactly.

People sometimes develop these theories of how they believe fighting should go. The reality is most often very different.

[t_niehoff]

Regardless of your sarcasm and thinly veiled insults the rule set DOES define how the fights will evolve... Folks train differently based on rule sets. I have actually competed in tournements and I know that training must reflect the rules of the game.


Of course training will reflect the rules/venue/etc. This is specificity at work. But my point is that the root skills that make a person a good fighter are the same, regardless of the rules. And so, the training of those root skills will be pretty much the same. Will your training *also* take into account rules/venue/etc.? Sure.



And just because you can do it against skilled person A does NOT mean you'll be able to do it against skilled person B.


Of course. That is a given. So what?



Stop putting words in my mouth.. Where did I say it was EASY?


Sorry if I misunderstood you, but you seemed to me to be saying that your theory was "to take the opponent out ASAP". What I was trying to point out that this is very unlikely, unless your opponent is a real scrub or makes a serious mistake.



This is about intent and focus.. I had a boxer, a pretty good one, as a student.. He thought I and the system had something to offer and that means a hell of a lot more to me that your generalized wiseazz quips.

"The system" (I guess you mean WCK) doesn't offer anything (on its own). We, as individuals, can only offer those things that we know. And we don't really know how to make WCK work unless we can really make WCK work, really fight successfully (hold our own) against good fighters. Everything else is theory, BS.

[YungChun]

What I was trying to point out that this is very unlikely, unless your opponent is a real scrub or makes a serious mistake.

IME it only takes a very small error on the opponent's part, or on our part, to turn the tide..and humans make lots of errors..

Using a strategy that is unusual can also help the opponent make a mistake, often he hesitates for just a half a second...

[YungChun]

"The system" (I guess you mean WCK) doesn't offer anything (on its own).
Sure it does, it offers a path, a method of training, a strategy and through all that, and through sparring it forges a way of fighting and a mindset<intent>.

[Nick Forrer]

The problem is when two people are relatively evenly matched, ASAP can be quite a bit longer than just a minute or two.

A pro boxer can usually take out a novice boxer in less than 30 seconds, but will need a much longer time against another pro.

a couple of old school vale tudo fights to make the point

ryan vs tico

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuChfdSIPw


royler vs eugene

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jp-4dU6Wh9s

[t_niehoff]

Sure it does, it offers a path, a method of training, a strategy and through all that, and through sparring it forges a way of fighting and a mindset<intent>.

In my view, all those things only come from experience, actually fighting/sparring. What the various martial arts do is provide a point of departure into sparring. But it is not the art that directs us, it is our results that direct us. In other words, we don't do such-and-such because the art "tells" us to, but because our results tell us to.

WCK is a skill, activity, not a belief system. It is like the skill to ride a bike (though much more complex than that simple skill). It doesn't exist apart from us and apart from the doing. That's why someone who can't do it (can't fight well with WCK), can't really teach others -- because they don't have the skill to teach. Our differences stem from the fact that you see WCK as a belief structure, as theory, as being knowledge-based, and I see it as a learned skill (like any other athletic skill).

[Knifefighter]

a couple of old school vale tudo fights to make the point

ryan vs tico

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuChfdSIPw


royler vs eugene

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jp-4dU6Wh9s

Notice that those were only one of five or six series of clips, all of the same fights. Each of those fights were over 40 minutes total.

Check out #4 in the Ryan series where they are spitting at each other. LOL.

[YungChun]

I
In other words, we don't do such-and-such because the art "tells" us to, but because our results tell us to.

WCK and our teachers are the same as a pro boxer's coaches and their training/drilling... Boxers train and use all sorts of things <moves> because their trainers and training 'tells them so'... Boxers that fight spar and WCK folks that fight also spar.. Boxers that train and follow the direction of their coaches do so because they trust their coaches and their training, as do many WCK folks right or wrong... NO DIFFERENCE....except the triaining method...

[t_niehoff]

WCK and our teachers are the same as a pro boxer's coaches and their training/drilling...


No, they're not at all. It's actually night and day. Boxing coaches, for one thing, actually can box (and did themselves box at a fair level at some point), whereas the overwhelming majority of WCK teachers couldn't fight using their WCK tools/skills their way out of a wet tissue bag. So boxing coaches are working from experience, not theory.

Equally importantly, the way boxing coaches train boxers is not at all similar to the way WCK people are "taught." The process and the results are different.



Boxers train and use all sorts of things <moves> because their trainers and training 'tells them so'...


What you don't get is that good fight trainers work from experience -- experience actually fighting/boxing. From seeing what really works. In other words, what they are doing is sharing their experience with people who are less experienced. And their views are entirely nontraditional -- they,like all athletic coahces -- are looking to get the best results not preserve a lineage, etc.

In WCK, people with little to no experience, people who don't and can't do it, are telling people what to do based on what they believe should work or has worked against other poorly skilled people. This is the blind leading the blind.

So when a good coach gives advise, they are suggesting something based on an understanding that only comes from the doing. And even then, the boxer himself may or may not incorporate that advise - it will depend upon the results (how well it actually works). All good fighters/athletes are guided by actual results.



Boxers that fight spar and WCK folks that fight also spar.. Boxers that train and follow the direction of their coaches do so because they trust their coaches and their training, as do many WCK folks right or wrong... NO DIFFERENCE....except the triaining method...

This is another example of seeing a superficial similarlity (both groups spar, both groups listen to their coaches) and believing tits the same. It's not.

For instance, where does that "trust" come from? I listen to my BJJ teacher because he is a BB - which means he can (and I've seen it for myself) actually use in fighting what he teaches at a very, very high level and so he is teaching those things that he can actually do, and because he has trained other really good BJJ fighters (including MMA fighters) - he is a proven fighter and trainer. And even though I listen to him, I am still guided by my results on the mat.

[YungChun]

No, they're not at all. It's actually night and day. Boxing coaches, for one thing, actually can box (and did themselves box at a fair level at some point), whereas the overwhelming majority of WCK teachers couldn't fight using their WCK tools/skills their way out of a wet tissue bag. So boxing coaches are working from experience, not theory.

You keep talking about the teachers who don't have experience, some do... How about your WCK sifu is he lumped in there too?

What about all those boxing coaches who lost... Never made it to the top or even the middle..? How are they qualified to lead the way to the top for others according to your myopic viewpoint?

The point wasn't about any particular person's experience it was about the point of trust and following directions--right or wrong.. Some Sifu DO give bad advice, some coaches also give bad advice, point was you said that the boxer or whomever is not going by *others* advice but only by their own experience, this is simply another distortion on your part..

Boxers and other pro fighters will often simply follow instructions just like TMA will often do the same.. Likewise smart TMA will also use their own experience and knowledge to absorb what is useful and reject what THEY find useless..

No difference except yes we know most WCK sifu and WCK suks but NOT ALL and agian has nothing to do with the point which was that you said real fighters ONLY GO BY THEIR EXPERIENCE...


What you don't get is that good fight trainers work from experience -- experience actually fighting/boxing.

See above...


From seeing what really works. In other words, what they are doing is sharing their experience with people who are less experienced. And their views are entirely nontraditional -- they,like all athletic coahces -- are looking to get the best results not preserve a lineage, etc.

More blanket statements.. . You can't lump every dam teacher, school and students together and generalize; well you can; in fact you do, but it's absurd..


both groups listen to their coaches and believing tits the same

Now everyone knows that's not true.. LOL

[Knifefighter]

What about all those boxing coaches who lost... Never made it to the top or even the middle..? How are they qualified to lead the way to the top for others according to your myopic viewpoint?

Even an intermediate level boxer will have lots and lots of full contact sparring and competitions under his belt.


Boxers and other pro fighters will often simply follow instructions just like TMA will often do the same.. Likewise smart TMA will also use their own experience and knowledge to absorb what is useful and reject what THEY find useless..

Actually, there is an interplay. A boxer will adapt his coaches' advice to his experience and a good coach will adapt his advice around his boxers' experiences, strengths and weaknensses.

[YungChun]

Even an intermediate level boxer will have lots and lots of full contact sparring and competitions under his belt.



Actually, there is an interplay. A boxer will adapt his coaches' advice to his experience and a good coach will adapt his advice around his boxers' experiences, strengths and weaknensses.
Agreed. And depending on how the fight *is going* as well.

[jesper]

Actually, there is an interplay. A boxer will adapt his coaches' advice to his experience and a good coach will adapt his advice around his boxers' experiences, strengths and weaknensses.

In what way is that different from how a good WT teacher coaches his students ?


Terrence hate to pick on you again, but how many sifus have you fought ?
There are a lot out there, some good some bad, and some disgracefull. But you keep saying the majority does this or the majority does that.
How many of those thousands of teachers have you actually fought since you know their skill level ?
Unless you have fought the majority, then your just speculating.

For the most part I agree with what you say terrence, but you really need to loose that know it all attitude. Specially since you come of as having limited experience fighting people outside your little club. I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

[Knifefighter]

In what way is that different from how a good WT teacher coaches his students ?

Almost all boxing coaches competed, if not at the pro level, then at the amateur level and have quite a number of competitive matches under their belts... and for each match, they probably had many hours of full contact sparring with a variety of different boxers.

How many WT teachers have never competed or sparred in full contact setting outside of their own schools (or at most, maybe three or four times)? I am speculating, of course, but I would bet that is the case in the majority of instances.

[jesper]

I did say good WT teachers:)

Besides that, I dont know how many teachers have fought outside their own school as I dont know them all.
I can tell you that in scandinavia, your encouraged to test out your skills outside your own private sphere.
As for the rest of the world *shrug*.
I do know from first hand experience that alot of teachers in other part of the world go out and test their skills, but whether they represent the majority or what I have no clue.

[YungChun]

I did say good WT teachers:)

Besides that, I dont know how many teachers have fought outside their own school as I dont know them all.
I can tell you that in scandinavia, your encouraged to test out your skills outside your own private sphere.
As for the rest of the world *shrug*.
I do know from first hand experience that alot of teachers in other part of the world go out and test their skills, but whether they represent the majority or what I have no clue.

Even of those TCMA teachers with experience you see much more experience with boxers, I don't know how much experience the typical coach has but most boxers who have been at it for a while would have say two to three hard sparring sessions per week with different people not including actual fights in the Ring.

I have to agree that compared to most TCMA folks the magnitude of difference in realistic experience is enormous.

Then to top it off you do searches on YouTube and you see TCMA "masters" training with folks at the wrong distances for applying power, and they even have poor *no contact* skills and horrible technique.. When questioned, they don't even seem sure of what they are talking about...and really look like they couldn't defend themself against an angry grandma.. On the other hand there ARE some schools and teachers who have quite a bit of good experience of all kinds and are smart and creative teachers, so there are exceptions, but too few it would seem.

In reality though the truth is that most TCMArtists don’t want and are not looking for the kind of contact used by most boxers.. So you have the market filling a niche for those people who want to learn “self defense” learn a few moves, here and there but not really jump all the way into what you would call “fighting”… Some arts even if done right are not really designed for fighting, like Aikido, which IMO is almost completely defensive..