Truth and lies regarding the so-called "Lineage Holder of LHBF"

[fukien guy]

Recently there has been an ongoing disscussion on the emptyflower
forum regarding Choi Wai Lun and the claims that he has made about
himself, others, and the liuhebafa style in general.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1184861712; start=0

Here is a summary of the postings to date:

Choi Wai Lun claims to be the lineage holder and custodian of the
lhbf system appointed by Chan Yik Yan. He displays a document to
prove this fact that has been mistranslated into English...
-the fact is his own classmates have come forth as witnesses to say
that he paid money to have that written and presented to him!
-the fact is the certificate in mention is actually a simple scroll
of recognition that others posses as well with their names!

Choi Wai Lun claims to have been accepted as a disciple of Chan in
1963 and begun to teach liuhebafa in 1969...
-the fact is Chan was in Singapore until 1965 and didnt open up his
door to new disciples until 1969!
-the fact is Choi did teach in 1969 but it was only Hsing Yi and not
liuhebafa as he had claimed. His own student from the time has
confirmed this fact!
-the fact is that Choi's own classmates who were there have stated
that his actual time with Chan Yik Yan was less than 2 years!

Choi Wai Lun claims to have been educated in Tai Chi, Ba Gua, and
Hsing Yi by Chan Yik Yan...
-the fact is his bagua has proven to be from a different source as
Chan taught the "jiang style" whereas Choi teaches the "swimming
dragon style"!
-the fact is it was stated that Chan had never taught Tai Chi to
anyone!

For the past decade a dedicated disciple of Choi Wai Lun has been
promoting him as the "lineage holder" and "sole heir" to Chan Yik
Yan and the Liuhebafa System.
HE HAS BEEN SLANDERING OTHERS WHOM HE HAS NEVER MET IN PERSON, NOR
TALKED TO, NOR SEEN PERFORM!
And has insulted virtually every disciple of Chan Yik Yan and
currently active teacher of liuhebafa today!

It was also brought up that Choi Wai Lun had never stated anything about himself or his past, and that it was simply his students who were making these claims. If this is so then he was in complete ignorance of his own website, acticles which his students and others published, his published book on 12 Animals, and videos, all stating this information in print! Seems like alot gets by the "Grandmaster of LHBF"!

It is of course not for me to say anything as I too have never met
any other practitioner of lhbf excluding my own teacher. But I find
there to be a shadow cast by Choi Wai Lun that discluded any other
student of Chan Yik Yan as being authentic. Finally after years of
reign as the self proclaimed "lineage holder of liuhebafa", the
classmates of Choi Wai Lun who were there at the time have spoken
their voice through their students on the forum. Let the truth be
known!

http://lineageholder.tripod.com/

BB

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Periodically, people show-up to discredit this master ot that master.. it's the nature of the game.. I've trained with Master Choi, and regardless of lineage, he has the goods.. by that, i mean he can back-up his lessons with usable applications.. and, from my perspective, applications that work beat lineages that don't.. cripe, we all know of "Masters" with ancient verifiable lineages but that produce no fighters, and rarely are seen training "real" applications.. so, do you pay a paper Tiger.. or, do you pay for lessons that work..

Being acquainted with Master Choi, i sense no intention to deceive.. but, i've been wrong before, so.. take it for what it's worth..

Be well..

[fukien guy]

There is no dis-credit and no mention of his skill what so ever!!!

There is only a mention regarding falsified claims made by Choi Wai Lun, and nothing more!

If he is so skillful then he could have rode to the top on talent instead of claiming to be the "lineage holder" of a system! If anyone else had made this claim without proof then the subject would be raised, and this is no different!:mad:

[cjurakpt]

Periodically, people show-up to discredit this master ot that master.. it's the nature of the game.. I've trained with Master Choi, and regardless of lineage, he has the goods.. by that, i mean he can back-up his lessons with usable applications.. and, from my perspective, applications that work beat lineages that don't..

but c'mon Bob - what if you are delusional? ;););)

[SevenStar]

lineage, schmineage. choi's skill level far outweighs any real or fake lineage claims. Why do people get so wrapped up in lineage?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Geeeze, cjurakpt, do you everybody i know? I keep hearing the same question over and over... "are you delusional? hmmm.. makes me wonder at times, am i?... nah, it just seems that way to the really crazy people...:D

Be well...

[cjurakpt]

LOL - parry / riposte...

BTW, what is the point of this thread? is this guy just looking for some self-actualization? I mean, even if 100 people wrote in agreeing with him, does he think it's going to have any impact on WLC?

and it IS a discredit - you are seeking to discredit his claims, which, by extension, makes his teachings suspect

you are also trying to break his rice bowl...

not that anyone really cares all that much anyway...

[entrust]

your A goof! how many masters may embelish their credentials how many? how about since the begining of time is it possable that wai lun choi was better than the master he learned from there are many great masters from chicago area master guo master zhang master wai lun chin and master wai lun choi how do you judge A master I b ye there students so challange his studente othrerwise put up or shut up I am not his student but reconize some one who needs a life:)
i

[B-Rad]

Who are you guys and how are you related to all this? While exposing lies is all fine and dandy, I don't think people take too kindly to random guys bringing over trouble from other forums, especially if you don't take part in the community here. No one knows who you are, or what you have to do with any of this. There's been a number of rather small problems turned into big ones due to the flames being fanned by outsiders, so I imagine most people are going to be a bit cautious with stuff brought over by newbies off another forum.

[mawali]

a. In America, people are easily fooled by CMA/IMA lineage so when you engage Americans you must talk lineage if you want students.

b. Wan Lun Choi proved that he was better because he entered and won tournament(s). That is valid because most CMA/IMA do not test or are afraid to test what they know. So in that scenario, Wan Lun Choi walked the talk!

c. Most Americans do not read chinese so the scroll could have called his mother a beauty queen and no one would know the difference.

d. In CMA/IMA, confidence goes a long way so if you have it and you can prove it, then you have a lineage because you kicked butt! Truth is truth and a lie is a lie!

[Walter Joyce]

Who are you guys and how are you related to all this? While exposing lies is all fine and dandy, I don't think people take too kindly to random guys bringing over trouble from other forums, especially if you don't take part in the community here. No one knows who you are, or what you have to do with any of this. There's been a number of rather small problems turned into big ones due to the flames being fanned by outsiders, so I imagine most people are going to be a bit cautious with stuff brought over by newbies off another forum.

We have been having similar problems at EF. Our moderator ending up banning the person trolling.

[Mas Judt]

I've met a lot of so-called masters in my day, Wai Lun Choi put all of them to shame. His skill is astounding - in free-fighting not 'physics tricks'. My Shuai Chiao teacher ALWAYS gave him the highest respects and a pecial seat because he loved how WLC lived his art and backed it up.

There is considerable debate on the translation of the scroll, and frankly having known Choi, he would say what he thought right to somebodies face. Funny how know he is an old man and retired the mice start squeeling.

Go accomplish what he accomplished, then talk to me. His proof is certainly in the pudding, not in whining like a bunch of old crows.

[B-Rad]

Just curious, but since Wai Lun Choi's retired, who are his successors?

[Mas Judt]

You know, I'll ask that question.

One of his top students, Michael Clanton is still keeping a bunch of his crew together.

[Water Dragon]

Man oh man, people really need to realize the stupidity of this issue. I had a chance to work with Dr. Tao a few times. I was never a student, but I by the time I left, he recognized me when I showed up to a seminar, and appeared happy to see me. I also have seen Wai Lun Choi a few times, but never had a chance to work with him.

Both of those men had solid, authentic, powerful Liu He Ba Fa. Both of them expressed the art in a very different way. How can anyone say say there is only one way in an internal martial art? That totally misses the point. Hell, look at the myriad styles within boxing, and BJJ as an example. This is a good reason the internals are all but dead. People need to stop focusing on what they 'think' is authentic and focus on finding the guys that have something to show and learning that.

[Mas Judt]

You know Sin The' claims to teach Lo Ho Pa Fa....

[Mas Judt]

Heard from a friend today who paid for a translation - it says EXACTLY what Wai Lun Choi said it said.

This Fukien guy is just a punk.

[sunfist]

The discussion as a whole is kinda ironic, considering LHBF itself was made up.




OH SNAP

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


The discussion as a whole is kinda ironic, considering LHBF itself was made up.
LOL.. ALL forms are "made up" by somebody at some time.. there's no set of Cosmic standards for forms.. none are particularly better or worse than another, except in their practical effects..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lineage is like ***** size, it only matters to those that don't have it.

:D

[BCLL]

To Fukien_guy & friends,

Sifu Choi Wai Lun has retired now. With all due respect you'd single handedly stir up the most useless debate. It's not going to make any one of you a better liuhebafa practitioner or fighter.

Since you & others had laid such a serious accusation against Sifu Choi. My Sifu has instructed me to point out false information contained within lineageholder.tripod & other forums in relation to him.

Identify yourself, your sifu & your source if you've nothing to hide!

My name is Francis Locke, a student of Sifu Mok Ki Fai. He is one of your so-called 'The Other students' of late Grand Master Chan Yik Yan & a former student of Sifu Choi. Before Sifu Choi immigrated to Chicago in 1972, he brought Sifu Mok to GM Chan's school to continue his training. Sifu Mok studied under GM Chan until his death. Sifu Mok gave no permission to lineageholder.tripod to quote him as source of information. He is not interested in debating who is the lineageholder or lineageholders of liuhebafa. Based on genuine information it's up to individuals to draw their own conclusions.

The facts about Sifu Choi's scroll:

If anyone who is fortunate to own a copy of late GM Chan Yik Yan's book published in 1969, just open page 5 alongside with a copy of Sifu Choi's scroll. It'll help you to decipher the meaning of both scrolls especially the last two sentences. Sifu Choi's scroll mirrors GM Chan's scroll.

1. Line 7: Liu He Ba Fa Gate=Liu He Ba Fa School, Style, System or Tradition.
Line 8: Only You Acquire (Obtain or Get) To Succeed Or Inherit.
Here's the correct English translation of the last two sentences:

"ONLY YOU GET TO SUCCEED THE LIU HE BA FA SYSTEM!!"

lineageholder.tripod tried to change the last Chinese wording from "CHI" to 'REN' therefore "Inherit" became 'Recognize'. Even with the incorrect last word 'REN' in place the last two sentences in English should be:
'Only you get to be recognize in the Liuhebafa system' and not
'Only for your recognition.'

2. Did Sifu Choi requested, pay for, and receive his scroll?
NO. Sifu Choi did not pay a single cent.
It was his classmates (Sifu Lung Wah, Sifu Mok Ki Fai & other pupils of GM
Chan) who pooled funds together & paid for the scroll as a farewell present.
Sifu Choi NEVER asked GM Chan for such scroll.

3. Did any other GM Chan's disciples receive the same scroll with their names on
them?
Sifu Mok Ki Fai confirms NONE of the others received such scroll.
Sifu Choi's scroll is the ONLY ONE of its kind.
If anyone has the same scroll please SHOW us!

Sifu Mok's information about Sifu Choi:

1. Sifu Choi Wai Lun lost his job as a truck driver during Hong Kong's
leftist's riots (1965-1968).
Thus he devoted a lot of time to intensive training as well as teaching at GM Chan Yi Yan's
school.
2. Sifu Mok Ki Fai joined Sifu Choi's own school after it was open in 1969.
Sifu Choi KNEW Liuhebafa at the time when Sifu Mok started training in
Hsing-Yi.
3. Sifu Choi along with Sifu Lung Wah, Sifu Kam Tung & others from Hong Kong
participated in the Southeast Asian tournament in 1971.
4. GM Chan presented Sifu Choi with the scroll.
5. Sifu Choi immigrated to Chicago in 1972.

Let us assume Sifu Choi followed GM Chan for less than 3 years?! Which one is more productive-: 2 years intensive full-time training or train a couple of hours once or twice a week for 10 years?

Why the wait?
Out of respect for GM Chan, Sifu Choi waited until after GM Chan's passing before declaring himself Grand Master.

Choi Wai Lun did not begin with Chan Yik Yan until 1969?
So our late GM Chan permitted Sifu Choi to open his own school in 1969 before he receives any lesson. NONSENSE!

GM Chan written & sold scroll by REQUEST?
UNBELIEVABLE!

The sole propose of lineageholder.tripod is quite obvious. Ghostly photo, twisted translation, and other false information mount a smear campaign to discredit Sifu Choi in order to support their side of the argument. The worst part is that they claim to be backed by all other GM Chan's pupils. Shameful! Hope we will find out who is behind in such cowardly act.

[PHILBERT]

lineage, schmineage. choi's skill level far outweighs any real or fake lineage claims. Why do people get so wrapped up in lineage?

Back in the day, when Samurai dueled, it was said that they would name off their family lineage of Samurai fathers, grandfathers, etc. Later on they created banners for it that they carried into battle.

[Chihung Mac Au]

It has come to my attention that some unknown person(s) have launched a smear campaign against me. It saddens me that those responsible for this think that this in some way will enhance their own standing in the martial community.

Nevertheless, some very absurd claims have been asserted. The one that I will address is in regards to the certificate Grand Master Chen Yik Yan presented to me. When I received this honor I was filled with great joy as well as some tribulation. The joy resulted in that my teacher felt that I deserved such recognition, but I knew from that point on, the weight of the responsibility for the future of the Liu Ho Pa Fa style rest upon me.

If there exists someone else, whom possesses such documentation, he has an obligation to come forth and present himself and take on the responsibility to preserve Chen Yik Yan legacy.

As far as all the other allegations are concern this fathom references are seriously flawed. My accusers proclaim that all living students of Grand Master Chen, has collaborated on these charges, but does not offer a single name. Let me begin by offering three names on my behalf. Kam Tung, Thomas Choi and Mok Kei Fai whom has since refuted all and any statements or connection with these people. Their statements can be found on the internet.

Since rumors of this nature have the ability to grow without substance, I felt it necessary to speak out on my own behalf.

My skills and my time with Grand Master Chen is my own personal treasure. Since there is no actual person or persons to refute, addressing all the other accusations is senseless.

I have been a presence in the martial art world for nearly half a century. Competing and teaching throughout these many years until my recent retirement. I am still available to anyone who wishes to legitimately question my abilities. Let them come forth in an honorable manner.

My name is Wai Lun Choi

[lkfmdc]

I do not know a single thing about LHBF, about Sigung Chan or about lineage

I do however know Sifu Choi....

HE IS THE REAL THING, HE HAS VERY STRONG KUNG FU, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, HE CAN FIGHT WITH IT

[Mas Judt]

Yep. And I like him personally, so lets see some names of these cowards who post BS about him. Who are you and why are you afraid to sign your name?

Wai Lun Choi is easy to find and never hides.

Same goes for his students.

For that matter, even people friendly to him and his school, like myself - easy to find.

Come you baseless cowards post your name and show us your 'skill.'

I am so over dealing with posers...

Wai Lun Choi is hands down one of the best I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. My Shuai Chiao teacher who always had qualified praise for most other teachers held Wai Lun Choi in the highest regard, without qualification and ALWAYS treated him as an honored guest. Why? Because Choi is the real deal. My teacher is very, very good, but for him being a doctor comes first. He knows what Choi sacrificed to have his art and revered him for it. THIS is why it sickens me to see such utter BS.

Funny how it only happens after Choi announced his retirement...

[HOKPAIWES]

My crane teacher and another fellow student are bros' with a guy who trains LHBF, the Master Choi is mentioned as a bad ass. Supposed to be an old video or something around of him nailing the $%^& outta some guy with what looks like a brush knee twist step strike.

[Mas Judt]

I was kicked off the Yahoo Liu Ho Pa Fa board for asking that the link to the sight slandering Wai Lun Choi be removed.

Obviously the moderators must be part of this.

Just want people to know.

Cowards.

[lkfmdc]

come on, by now we all know, being attacked on the internet by gutless geeks should be taken as a compliment, you must be doing something right ;)

f-em, they're idiots

[cjurakpt]

I was kicked off the Yahoo Liu Ho Pa Fa board for asking that the link to the sight slandering Wai Lun Choi be removed.

Obviously the moderators must be part of this.

Just want people to know.

Cowards.

twats.....

[lkfmdc]

twats.....

big, widely used, smelly, dirty, loose twats