Bak Hsing Kwoon Fights [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

mokkori

07-20-2007, 09:51 AM

I just found these this morning, one of the CLF brothers in HK has been posting a ton of gold latley, so props to linglingchat on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_03ZbivKG3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J11TJvkLBjw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3HZNOocLno

Thanks gents! Actually Ive got a lot more but kind of portioning it out. My sifu plans to post some of his stuff up soon, hope its just as impressive if not more than the other vids Ive been posting!

By the way, if you like my videos then please rate them too and show your support for Choi Lei Fut!

http://www.youtube.com/linglingchat

gwa sow

07-20-2007, 10:11 AM

who is your sifu?

mokkori

07-20-2007, 10:31 AM

who is your sifu?

My Sifu is Paul Roberts, he teaches here in Hong Kong and in Japan.

nospam

07-20-2007, 05:03 PM

The vids were a real treat to watch. I loved the movements and appreciated the subtle differences in expression. Does any one know why they were shot? Is it a training video? Was it their kwoon simply shooting application?

nospam
:cool:

Satori Science

07-22-2007, 10:45 AM

Here's another short fight, this is of a younger Sifu David Zerff Di Sihing of our school and my Sifu's loyal disicple since 1981.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kTy06sqPOA

deeperthantao

07-22-2007, 10:55 AM

nice one brotha!!

keep em coming

nospam

07-25-2007, 02:10 PM

Yea - I do like watching those fights.

Good schtuff!

nospam
:cool:

stout

07-26-2007, 11:55 AM

Good footage. Thanks for sharing.

They dressed like semi contact but fought like full contact force. What was the deal?

Satori Science

07-26-2007, 11:59 AM

They were my SIfu's tournaments and his rules, except for exterme cases he didn't like to DQ people for excessive contact back then. He had one funny story about the early days at a Karate tournament ware the brothers were pulling their sow chois and the points weren't getting counted. So Sifu told them to start throwing them for real, about 15min later there was a black belt meeting and it was decided that the points for the pulled sow chois would be counted.

The way he tells it we were the reigning tournament champs for years, so everyone came gunning for us, if you watch the footage of Dave fighting he is essentially doing two things, trying not to get kicked and trying not to hurt the other guy, but every time he loses his temper with the guy, WHAM!

In western Canada in the 80's the standard was very high in terms of athletisicm, I think you would be hard pressed to find to many TKD guys who fight that hard these days.

Any way, I have other footage of our senior black belts fighting each other (Sifu's Curt Dave and Robert Yee) and they are much more controlled with their power, but those TKD guys came looking for a fight and learned the hard way...

stout

07-26-2007, 12:54 PM

The light gloves makes application of technique alot easier....especially sau. Not sure if you can unleash CLF in any enviroment other then full contact. It's hard to be fast and not hurt your fight partner with the swings and you got to be fast with the swings. So is there going to be another Bak Hsing tournament?

stout

07-26-2007, 12:55 PM

you have the link of your sihings sparing? Thanks.

nospam

07-26-2007, 03:15 PM

The tournies were billed as sem-contact but we always fought full-contact. It didn't seem to matter much and the refs generally never called it. We generally didn't throw long arm techniques though and all of the kicks bounced off us - but alas point sparring.

Some times the head shots got carried away depending on the size of your opponent (had to make a point of what was and what wasn't 'counting') - we may have entered and held point tournies but we never modified (besides no sau chows) our techniques. It was all good fun.

When we fought classmates we did settle down the power cuz there was no point or need to know what was working and what wasn't. It did allow us to use more fancier techniques. I recall a picture perfect set-up jump/spinning back kick I did on a classmate - we could fight with more flare :D

nospam
:cool:

stout

07-27-2007, 09:53 AM

how do you find sparing in comps with folks who fight the standard modern way, like kickboxing techniques? Against the more advanced folks who has the timing. footwork etc nailed. Do you feel CLF gives you advantage? Especially with heavier gloves, it much harder to swing CLF punches. I guess Dave Lacey's fighter Franco, proved you can do it. I see that in your sihings 1989 fights, they sometimes reverted to straight punches also, they don;t always use CLF technique.

nospam

07-27-2007, 12:50 PM

Altho I believe these questions are more for Satori, we are of the same Familia, so:

"how do you find sparing in comps with folks who fight the standard modern way, like kickboxing techniques?" Easy enough. Kickboxers tend to fight similarily to boxers, that is, not too much forward motion, so moving them did not prove too much a challenge ie) moving them backwards to be overwhelmed.

"Against the more advanced folks who has the timing. footwork etc nailed." For anyone who has skill there will always be a challenge. They usually did not have the skill to get out of the way from our very aggressive attacks so they too would invariably turn and run.

"Do you feel CLF gives you advantage?" CLF is the advantage.

"Especially with heavier gloves, it much harder to swing CLF punches. I see that in your sihings 1989 fights, they sometimes reverted to straight punches also, they don;t always use CLF technique." We are a straight punch lineage - you saw how we use it and how well it works. Golden rule - keep the fight simple. If punch #1 and #2 work, then use them until you require punch #3, #4, then slip back to punch #1 then punch #2~

There are many other techniques but when you have your opponent on the run and you continue to close, straight punching is the quickest, easiest, and most effective technique. If you notice in the Curtis Taylor fight vid, he does not kick - altho we do have every imaginable kick in our arsenal, feet grounded for more power is our golden rule.

nospam
:cool:

Pork Chop

07-27-2007, 01:13 PM

Would love to see more clips of you guys in san shou or kuoshu.

i respect the heck outta you guys but i generally have a problem with people fighting all out in medium/light contact sparring venues. Just seen too many bad judges rooting for a particular fighter, unfairly enforcing rules to shape the outcome, and guys showing up unprepared for that level of contact due to the division not being described as such. Safety precautions & disparity between safety gear in most tournaments are a joke. Would much rather see schools who want to fight all out, do so in the venues created for it.

Just one of many examples I've personally experienced:
Had my lip split by a wing chun guy wearing MMA gloves in a tournament in philly once (my martial art gloves were huge by comparison). as soon as I punched him back in the face (mask actually, he was wearing a kuoshu mask, i was wearing open face), i was threatened with disqualification. When i used my kicks to stay away, the judge made us start in bridge (talk about unfair advantage for a wing chun guy). The guy kept grabbing my gloves and punching me in the mouth. Any attempts at retaliation were met with threats of disqualification. I ain't got time for that kinda bs.

That's not to say that the outcome of the fights posted would be any different. It would just be nicer if it were in a better venue.

Satori Science

07-27-2007, 01:57 PM

I see that in your sihings 1989 fights, they sometimes reverted to straight punches also, they don;t always use CLF technique.

Seems like you don't understand the Bak Hsing that well (no offence) Tam Sam emphasised almost entirely on Chop Choi, as Naya said we are a striaght punch lineage. In my opinion they were holding off on the stright punch to protect their opponents. Curt gets a warning from my sifu for the left chop to the face in his fight and Dave almost knocks his opponent out right before the end of his fight. When I train, or teach about 85% of my emphasis is on the straight lead. My Sifu doesn't even start explaining the application of Gwa-sow until you reach a black belt (just our way I suppose). To be a black belt in our school you HAVE TO understand the Chop Choi. It is the main technique that my sifu mastered (along with his infamous side kick).

Tam Fei Pang always emphasised the coordination of kicks and chop choi to my Sifu and Lung Tse taught, exatcly as Naya said, the grounded running footwork and succesive combinations of a minimal number of mastered hand tequniques. Our ideas about gwa sow come from him though & his notion of the Mi Ji Kuen or the "Rice Word Fist" our specialized swinging arm techniques.

I agree with the rest of Nospam's points, especially "CLF is the advantage":cool:

Satori Science

07-27-2007, 02:01 PM

Would love to see more clips of you guys in san shou or kuoshu.

i respect the heck outta you guys but i generally have a problem with people fighting all out in medium/light contact sparring venues. Just seen too many bad judges rooting for a particular fighter, unfairly enforcing rules to shape the outcome, and guys showing up unprepared for that level of contact due to the division not being described as such.

As I said, they were our tournaments and so generally we were the ones adhereing to the rules. As I pointed out the TKD guy Dave was fighting was defiantely there to hurt him. My experience has been that I'm always at a tournament to spar. But if my opponent decides he wants to fight then we are fighting.

The experience you described is out and out bad juding which is soemthing differnt and if you watch the contact level in Curt's fight the other guy went gunning fo his head at the bell. Also the other guys has about 30 pounds and a few inches on him. Being an honourable competitor is important but not more important than getting beat up.

I would add that being cheated is something different entirely. We have that problem all the time these days as our school is much smaller than in days of the past and many of th judegs now are the guys who lost to my SIhings for years. The easy solution there again is to knock a few black belts out. Not the most honourable but its works.

I think the phenomena of heavy contact in semi-contact tournaments is ongoing. At Wong 06 last year I had two of the four people I fought trying to knock me out. It sortta comes with the territory. And believe me The brothers were still holding back, those guys got off light.

All the best

Satori Science

07-27-2007, 02:08 PM

you have the link of your sihings sparing? Thanks.

I have some vid projects on the go but nothing else up at the moment. There will be more coming though.

http://www.wanpage.com/tam/

Here is a video of Master Tam Sing demoing some sections from our lineage's Di Sup Tse. My Sifu's dear Hing Di and lion dance partner was Tam Sing's disciple, for Tam SiSook Gung a good warm up for his student was to gwa sow a tree 500 times. There are lots of stories of him like that.

enjoy:D

nospam

07-27-2007, 02:43 PM

The above clip of Tam Sing is from the movie "the Paris Killers".

Yesterday I managed only 50 gwa sau's on my tree, but it was a slow, muggy Canadian day.

nospam
:cool:

Pork Chop

07-27-2007, 02:58 PM

Satori

that's cool. i just think they should do away with medium contact altogether.
yeah, the tkd guy did look like he wanted to blast.
tkd guys always want to kick real hard, but you brush their face with a punch and they curl up in a ball.

when i was with the wongs, working the tournament, in like 03, a guy got a sinus cracked open in "continuous medium contact". Guy was out on his feet, bent over at the waist, and a ton of goo came out his nose from the cracked sinus. At that moment I was like "this is insane". both guys had completely different headgear & gloves. Some of that stuff people use offers no protection whatsoever. judges were encouraging the behavior. Bad thing about working tourneys is that you've kinda gotta take who you can get as far as judges. be nice if we had a decent organization to standardize that stuff.

stout

07-30-2007, 09:58 AM

Canada Bak Hsing goon guys - Thanks for the explaination. The movie clip is insane. a good show of Buk Sing CLF.

I am surprised to hear that you put so much effort into your straight punch training. Although it should not be as Buk sing is famous for Chap. What i was taught tended to focus on Sau, more then anything else right from the beginning. The problem with Gaw/Sau, I find that is, if you use them as the primary lead attack, they tend to be easily spotted.

When you say you are a straight punch lineage, do you mean that you would try to deliver chap punches but still with the extension of shoulder and side step. So not like the standard straight punches. With this technique, would you not be worried about delivery speed? How is Buk Sing Chaps different to others?

nospam

07-30-2007, 11:50 AM

How is Buk Sing Chaps different to others?

To know that you need to fight one of us :D

I am surprised to hear that you put so much effort into your straight punch training. Although it should not be as Buk sing is famous for Chap. What i was taught tended to focus on Sau, more then anything else right from the beginning. The problem with Gaw/Sau, I find that is, if you use them as the primary lead attack, they tend to be easily spotted.

Every lineage is going to be some what different. The reason why my familia focuses on the straight punch is because it is effective. Also, the tasp choi is taught at intermediate level and requires conditioning, otherwise it simply buckles on impact and is ineffective. So our beginner to intermediate students will learn the long arm and straight punches.

For tournament purposes, tasp choi is not a valid technique as the primary target is the throat, so again we straight punch for the most part because it is the most effective weapon for that situation. Oh, you'll see tasp choi nonetheless, but more straight punches.

We tend to not open an attack with tasp choi, or gwa sau or any other swinging arm conbination, although will throw out a gwa choi followed by tsap or straight punch, as a sau choi is best 'set-up' for maximum delivery and devastation.

Regarding delivery and speed, the straight punch is very fast and powerful and still incorporates the upper torso and hips and legs. It is not a tasp choi, but for me to talk more about that, you would have to call me Sifu.

nospam
:cool:

stout

07-31-2007, 12:38 PM

Thanks for that. It gvies me more incite to using CLF. I want to learn Buk Sing but unfortuately geography and timing does not coincide. There's jsut not many Buk Sing Sifus around in the western world. So I just have to make do with what I have already & refine based on my own experiences. I know the technique from forms I have learnt but not much about delivering them when timing Is required.

When you guys train, do you pretty much spar at every class? How hard do you think you need to spar to practice CLF?

nospam

08-01-2007, 03:55 PM

When you guys train, do you pretty much spar at every class? How hard do you think you need to spar to practice CLF?

Stout - everyone knows a Bak Hsing playa fights even when asleep. :D One mind, any weapon.

nospam
:cool:

hskwarrior

08-01-2007, 04:23 PM

you guys do that too?????:eek:

stout

08-01-2007, 05:40 PM

Stout - everyone knows a Bak Hsing playa fights even when asleep. :D One mind, any weapon.

I get you. Cheers.

Satori Science

08-01-2007, 06:43 PM

Here's another short fight, Sifu Dave Zerff again. This one showcases a lot of tequnique but Dave's defiantely going easy on the power, so more of a demonstartion than anything. Although he does take one good contact call. Actaully he was probably being extra well behaved as his opponets teacher was the center ref...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woIy42uMhvg

Enjoy:D

stout

08-14-2007, 11:19 AM

Thanks for posting these. I really admire their footwork in particular. Are both Sifus still training/teaching?

Satori Science

08-14-2007, 11:52 AM

We call our footwork the running horse, its our pride and joy(along with the chop choi)
And yes my Sifu is still hard @ it.

cheers

southernkf

08-14-2007, 12:00 PM

Here's some footage of my Sihing, a younger Sifu Curtis Taylor fighting at one of my Sifu's tournaments back in 1989. Master Suen is the center ref, wearing a gold suit one of his trade marks back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFJUwCqHUE8

Enjoy

Cool fight clips. I liked that he applied pressure and kept his cool under pressure. My critiques, meant in the best intentions, are the leaning forward to reach for the strikes rather than staying balanced (but then I don't know much about Bak Hsing CLF), and that he didn't control the kicking enough.

Good Stuff

stout

08-14-2007, 12:40 PM

leaning forward - it's a CLF thing, most notibly Buk Sing. Like many good things, it works very well with a combo of other variables. Chan don't seem to show any of such leaning forward characteristics.

hskwarrior

08-14-2007, 12:42 PM

we lean a little bit too in the Hung Sing Lineage, whether or not we adopted that from Tam Sam or not, IDK........I agree, you don't see too many chan family clf guys leaning forward the way buk sing does.

Satori Science

08-14-2007, 01:14 PM

Cool fight clips. I liked that he applied pressure and kept his cool under pressure. My critiques, meant in the best intentions, are the leaning forward to reach for the strikes rather than staying balanced (but then I don't know much about Bak Hsing CLF), and that he didn't control the kicking enough.

Good Stuff

As for leaning, just because he leaned doesn't mean he was off his center. Again our running horse technique allows for almost 90% forward weight while maintaing solid root. And when we lean in our square horse we maintian our center (its about how you lean) As for the kicking control, on the one hand Curt agrees with you, when we discussed that footage the other day he said more or less the same thing. However I didn't really see the TKD land to many of those kicks?

cheers:D

southernkf

08-14-2007, 01:24 PM

As for leaning, just because he leaned doesn't mean he was off his center. Again our running horse technique allows for almost 90% forward weight while maintaing solid root. And when we lean in our square horse we maintian our center (its about how you lean) As for the kicking control, on the one hand Curt agrees with you, when we discussed that footage the other day he said more or less the same thing. However I didn't really see the TKD land to many of those kicks?

cheers:D

OK, I get the leaning. From my perspective I feel it was innappropriate, but then I practice a different art and I can't comment on CLF - any branch. :D

Yes, the TKD guy DIDN'T land too many of those kicks. Thank goodness. The out come may have been different if he was a better kicker. It is interesting to see how other styles deal with the same actions differently.

Thanks for the input