Making a PM public

[Notintheface]

So besides going against "some people's" perceived Nettiquette is posting a pm an infractionable offfense here on KF?


Is it stated anywhere in the FAQ?

Is posting someone's own words and claims an insult?

I know I am rough around the edges when it comes to being rude but if I claimed to be a Grandmaster of Hung gar to someone in a pm, I am pretty sure they will call me to task and quite possibly make it public.

Quite honeslty when I troll I expect to get infractions here and there but the moderation is really assinine. I receive an infraction for posting a pm, which appears to be Bohditree's pet peeve, but I don't recevie one for call someone an out right Moron or **** WIT.

Lok sent me a message unsolicitated and I decided to make a sent private message public because it was now in my possession and there for my right to do with as I pleased. Now if I saw an explicit rule stating not to do such an action I would expect to get an infraction. I have looked for this rule but have yet to find it... I am still looking.

I am also noticing that out of all the moderator Bohditree is the only supplying me with these infractions. Bohditree, if you are goning to give me infractions at least attempt to make them sound and sensible or at least entertaining!;) I don't mind getting taken to the woodshed but please base the punishment off of posted " Proper forum behavior" infractions and not pet peevees:)

[synack]

Rule or not. I wouldn't do it.

[Notintheface]

I understand that and you are prefectly correct in your observation because you base it upon what you believe to be right or wrong.

What I am arguing here is based upon perceived ettiquette and applied rules.
No where have I found a rule statting I should not post a PM.

The infraction I have received for posting the pm is that of insulting the person who sent the email.

So I insulted the pm sender, who makes some outlandish claims, by posting his own delusions

The infraction does not match the action. If I received the infraction for calling Lok a bull****ting liar, then yes I would say I deserved the infraction.

Now when I asked, and I am still asking, why is posting a pm a bad thing, I was answered, "it is a PRIVATE email"

So it leaves me to wonder, would i have been ok if I wrote a post without the Email and said "This guy Lok is insane he told me event A, Event B and outlandish claim C" More than likely the community would have replied POST evidence or it didn't happen.....

Now what I am also find a bit humourus is that out of all the moderators I only get sanctioned when this paticular moderator is on otherwise I am a safe little troll. So this leads me to wonder if this is a unviersal belief among the kung fu board moderators, an implied rule of KFO, a written rule or what?

If it is a loose belief and differs from mod to mod then something more concrete should be posted about what is actually allowed and what is frowned upon.

I would love to hear Gene's personal perspective on this subject of discourse :)

[Toby]

Why don't you send him a PM? :p

Making PMs public doesn't bother me. Sometimes they're too funny to keep private. Yours sorta fit that bill. When I used to be active on here there was a particular complex persona who was sort of like a troll. People used to make private messages from that person public, including Gene himself. He might not've actually posted the PM verbatim but he certainly discussed the intent of it. Of course in that case we all knew the persona was crazy so we all laughed along with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

PM = PRIVATE message, what's so confusing here?

[Notintheface]

LoL, I am tempted too!

Your example is exaclty what I am looking for! So if this behavior has occured, even by Gene himself, then why is it wrong?


Is it only wrong if the person who is being made fun of well liked?
Or
If the person is a friend of the MOD?


Bohdtree is he your special friend?

Gene do you post Pms and what is your personal view on this Nettiqueteeeeeeeee?

[Notintheface]

Private does not = garanteed silence. There are two parties involved and unless both party A and party B agree to message exclusivity then there is no real expectance of secrecy.

For example, I don't know Kohlop at all but yet he fet the need to message me. Fine I answered his message back but then he fired off something quite odd that I thought should be viewd by the public at large.

The question at hand is "where is it dictated that what I did was incorrect or warranted a infraction?

I would also like to know how is my action of posting a pm an insult to a member of this board? Did displaying his silliness consititue an insult? If so, how? If what he said is true then there is no insult and if he told me , a complete stranger, this info why would he not share it with anyone else?

Did he get caught with his pants down and did I do something wrong by pointing and laughing?

now with the Gene sample, I want to know if Gene gave himself an infraction.

Bohditree still sucks though :) and yes yes yes I know INFRACTION

[Toby]

Your example is exaclty what I am looking for! So if this behavior has occured, even by Gene himself, then why is it wrong?Gene's case was complex. The person was not so much liked as respected. They had a thick skin, which made it fun to argue with them. You could say anything you wanted to them and they wouldn't complain to the moderators ever. I've also been on the brink of getting banned for calling someone a bastard or something similar just once. After that settled down I did it again jokingly and was almost banned again. I prefer thick skinned people. But the one persona broke many (written) rules themselves and were actively breaking rules at the time, so Gene posting PMs from them was maybe different than posting PMs from someone "innocent".

Once I googled that persona's forum name and found that after they were banned from here, they were banned from pretty much every martial arts and fitness forum on the net. Moderators here had a lot more patience than most other forums. Of course, the persona's downward spiral into schizophrenia/pathological lying became more pronounced as time went by so maybe they deserved a banning earlier in those other forums.

[Toby]

I guess what I'm saying is I would expect an "infraction" :rolleyes: if I was breaking rules and the other party complained. Gene's seems like a pretty cool guy, though. It's not that easy to get banned unless you really set out to. GDA's still around, for example ;). You're still a small fish at this stage.

And I guess if you weren't breaking any rules, you've got nothing to worry about.

[Toby]

OK, I just checked the rules that you have to read when you register and there's nothing saying you shouldn't post PMs. It might break etiquette and piss people off, but it isn't necessarily forbidden.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Private does not = garanteed silence. There are two parties involved and unless both party A and party B agree to message exclusivity then there is no real expectance of secrecy.

For example, I don't know Kohlop at all but yet he fet the need to message me. Fine I answered his message back but then he fired off something quite odd that I thought should be viewd by the public at large.

The question at hand is "where is it dictated that what I did was incorrect or warranted a infraction?

I would also like to know how is my action of posting a pm an insult to a member of this board? Did displaying his silliness consititue an insult? If so, how? If what he said is true then there is no insult and if he told me , a complete stranger, this info why would he not share it with anyone else?

Did he get caught with his pants down and did I do something wrong by pointing and laughing?

now with the Gene sample, I want to know if Gene gave himself an infraction.

Bohditree still sucks though :) and yes yes yes I know INFRACTION

And how do we know the PM's weren't altered ??
Its a tricky slope that is best left not navigated.

If you didn't think you did anything wrong then you need to understand what private means ie: NOT FOR PUBLIC.

[B-Rad]

If someone's acting crazy/threatening (without being baited into this kind of behavior), or if they're acting completely contradictory in public giving you a hard time in the process, and you're not giving out their personal info, I don't see there being any problem with that. If someone I don't know is being a complete **** through private messages when I never indicated I wanted to have a private conversation with them, I have no problem posting their unsolicited emails/pm's on a public forum. I know a couple of us have posted crazy emails from a certain nutty teacher in the past :p I don't know the complete context of your situation (what transpired before hand) so it's hard to say if it was right or wrong, but you're definitely not the first to post private messages/emails in public. Of course trolling isn't going to gain you any sympathy, lol. And like the dude above me said, there's no proof you didn't alter the private message without confirmation from the other party. Trolling doesn't exactly gain you any credibility either ;)

[PhilDunlap]

I am sorry but we are not talking priveleged information, Sending a pm to a stranger who did not request it I see no reason for it to be kept private

[Notintheface]

And how do we know the PM's weren't altered ??
Its a tricky slope that is best left not navigated



You are right that alteration makes it a slippery slope but the other party has access to the sent letter in their mail since they did send it.

Also at the time I received the infraction the person who sent me the email was not on. I received the infraction as far as I know from Bohditree just because he saw my post, which had been up for a LOOOOOOOOOOONG while, decided it didn't meet his standards and I got the infraction. I am sure other MODs saw it but I guess they choose to leave it be.

[Notintheface]

I made the original post Yesterday at 05:17 AM


and I received the infraction around 07-17-2007 12:21 PM

Almost a full day before anyone said anything. Even though Bohditree may be a nice guy but arbitrary nature of enforcing a nonconcrete rule is Bull****!

Plus to chalk it up to it being in the nautre of insulting another forum member is also BS.

[PangQuan]

not that I care all that much but I will throw in my 2cents.

If you are going to send a message to someone on the internet, thats your deal.

If I send a message to someone, yes I am sending it for them to read for themselves.

At the same time I do not send PM's to people I may think will make them public, and if I do, I only send information I would not mind made public.

Thats just how the internet works people. You have to realize there is nothing TRULY PERSONAL on the internet.

thats for letters, phone calls, and in person talks, IN REAL LIFE!

anything you ever do on the internet you should do with the full knowledge it is wholey public and will be given out, scrutinized, made fun of, laughed at, applauded, praised, ****ed on, stepped on, etc.

its the internet.....its the internet....its the internet....sink in yet?

[GeneChing]

Posting PMs is by definition, poor netiquette. That's obvious to anyone, even a troll. Personally, I never share PMs. I appreciate some of the kind comments people have left about me above - if I've earned any of them, it's because I maintain confidentiality. You have no idea how many secrets I keep. That being said, I also attempt to be as prudent about every email I send. It's one of the most challenging aspects of my job since I send hundreds of emails a week. But as a professional writer, I am very aware of the power of word, so I always give me best effort at being as appropriate as possible, even on this forum.

Notintheface, Bodhitree has been one of our mods for a long time. He's contributed a great deal of time and effort to keeping our forum here running smoothly. I stand behind his decisions and I think it's admirable of him to have given you as much rope as he has. If you were in my face like you are in his now, I would have banned you long ago. Until now, I've totally empowered him to decide your fate on this forum. However, given this thread, I'm now considering overriding Bodhitree's decision to allow you to remain. If Bodhitree asks, I'll ban you immediately. But I might just ban you before he asks, if you keep this up. I have far better things to do then explain obvious netiquette to you.

[cjurakpt]

if there is a version of "caveat emptor" for PM senders, then I think they should have it emblazoned on their monitors somewhere;

in fact, I always send a PM as if it is something that might be posted at some point, so I censure myself even moreso than I do when posting publically!

here's how it is, IMHO: a PM is not used to send something that ought not to be posted publically - it is done simply to have a conversation that could occur publically, but is done with the convenience of not having any distracting chatter in the form of other posts

at the same time, if it's an exchange between two folks who have the arrived agreement of "secrecy", to post the contents is definitely bad form...but should not neccesarilly be actionable for the reasons stated above, IMHO

HOWEVER, to send an unsolicited PM to someone, especially a chastizing or hostile one, and one that could be used as ammo to back up a public confrontation between the two people - hey, too bad for the sender...

finally, realize that the content of a PM can be edited or even made up completely, leading to at least temporary confusion, until (if) a mod comes in and corrects that (I assume they can access the actual text if need be to verify the authenticity), so take it all with a grain of salt, right?

2 ¢...

[PangQuan]

Me thinks the Banninator is taking his belt off! :eek:

[Notintheface]

Notintheface, Bodhitree has been one of our mods for a long time. He's contributed a great deal of time and effort to keeping our forum here running smoothly. I stand behind his decisions and I think it's admirable of him to have given you as much rope as he has. If you were in my face like you are in his now, I would have banned you long ago. Until now, I've totally empowered him to decide your fate on this forum. [. I have far better things to do then explain obvious netiquette to you.

Then I'll be honest then Gene, I'll take the ban. Because All I am doing is challenging a perceived ettiquette extended bewteen to indivudals that agree upon secretcy and privacy and I have never extended that hand. In challenging this, am doing something wrong then so be it i'll go down for that.

Ask to read the pms sent back and forth between us and the penalties I was given. Publishing a pm=insult. that is down right silly.

SIZE="3"]However, given this thread, I'm now considering overriding Bodhitree's decision to allow you to remain. If Bodhitree asks, I'll ban [/SIZE]you immediately. But I might just ban you before he asks, if you keep this up

Have I disrespected anyone in this thread? Actually a good debate on netiquette is going on becasue I posed this question.


He's contributed a great deal of time and effort to keeping our forum here running smoothly. I stand behind his decisions and I think it's admirable of him to have given you as much rope as he has.

I have not doubted his contributions to this forum but I am questions his current dealings with me. given me as much rope, please I have seen people here do much worse and still be around.

I appreciate that Bodhitree has kept me from being banned and I appreciate that but at the same time does that mean I should not still question policy? Or publicly speak up about what I feel is skewed forum practices?

[Notintheface]

I'll take the BANN that is not the problem but if the responses to this post are indicitve of what people think then I am not alone....Also it would be nice to have it in a FAQ somewhere so others would not make that mistake in the future.

[PangQuan]

wouldnt it be funny if Notintheface was Bodhitree ! :eek::D

[Notintheface]

lol now that would the ultimate troll.....

[GeneChing]

That's all I had to hear. Thanks for making my job easier.

[cjurakpt]

That's all I had to hear. Thanks for making my job easier.

with all due respect, I think that's an unfortunate choice: despite his moniker and his MO in some regards, he has made some valuable contributions here - kind of like the guy in the Gurdjieff commune who constantly irritated everyone else, who Gurdjieff had actually "planted" there to do just that...personally, I found him refreshing and he played the roll of "chorus" rather nicely in several instances...

furthermore, there are at least 5 or so "individuals" (Noone, Mega Foot, Truthman, HungaNYC)who should have been removed for really obnoxious trolling way before this guy; it's true he "broke" some rules, but at the same time, he explained himself coherently, and obviously is not the only one who is of that opinion

and I think his "asking" for the ban was his way of simply stating that he is what he is, he's not gonna change his ways to avoid it;

that said, if you want to ban him for all that, please go ahead and ban me as well - it's been fun, but if this is what it's come to, I'll go down with him...

Edit: BTW, we are not the same person, if anyone is wondering

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Notintheface,

Just the name PM (Private message) implies a private conversation and it is reasonable to expect the communication would remain private. If the person wanted to communicate publicly they would have. Private means private for a reason. The title "Private Message" communicates to the receiver that the sender intends for the message to be private and remain private unless otherwise specified by mutual agreement.

To publicly post a private message is clearly a sign of poor manners and poor judgment on the part of the revealer of the message. It is immaterial whether one shouldn't be surprised if their message is made public because it was sent over the Internet. I agree with the "participator beware" mentality, however that does not justify posting another's private message without their approval, it merely explains it. The act is not just poor manners, in some cases. and this one is a good example, it reveals immaturity.

Even the fact you are publicly whining about your treatment from a moderator reveals your lack of character. You should have sent a PM to the moderator first and tried to handle your complaint privately. If you did not receive a satisfactory response then you can always PM Gene.

Since you have been on this board you have repeatedly complained publicly about private matters and revealed numerous private messages. You have been given another opportunity to improve your behavior by Bodhi and yet you continue to reveal a PM publicly. Your behavior is similar to a child trying to justify his misbehavior by looking for support from his friends.

The solution to your problem is very simple. If you have a question about the rules take it up with the moderators or Gene. If you don't like the rules go play somewhere else where the rules are more to your liking.

But for God's sake stop whining and complaining about how others are treating you by revealing their PM's to everyone else.

If you don't want to hear from some people. put them on your ignore list!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi cjurakpt,

You are comparing apples to oranges here!

[cjurakpt]

Hi cjurakpt,

You are comparing apples to oranges here!

both still fruit...;) (ok, ok, I'm guessing you were holding the door wide open for me on that...)

anyway, maybe I haven't read through all his stuff that thoroughly, but given the specific context of at least the latest "infraction", I still think he should not be banned, just my opinion...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi cjurakpt,

LOL, well, what I mean is that you have an established reputation here. The reputation that Notintheface is establishing is, let us say, of a lesser quality. Within any group respect is earned over time, therefore mis-steps of conduct are more readily forgiven when a person's history (reputation) speaks for them. This is a universal phenomenon found within all groups.

If Notintheface had taken some time to establish a pattern of behavior that is generally respected, his behavior "might" be given a bit more latitude. However, even when he is corrected in his conduct he feels the need to make it public. So he compounds immature behavior with more immature behavior. This is a quality that does not build respect and clearly does NOT apply to you.

Even chaos has order to it, even the Wild West had inherent rules of conduct, so do Internet BB's. The host gets to make the rules and it is up to each participant to decide for themselves whether they want to follow them.

As an aside, I am not lobbying for the banning of Notintheface. To my knowledge this BB is not a democracy. I try to abide by the rules and I do not think it is unreasonable expect others to do so as well. But in the end it is up to the moderators and Gene. I respect their judgment because it is their responsibility to maintain some sense of order. If I don't like it I can go else where too.

As a second aside, on one occasion in the past, on another MA BB, one of the participants wanted to include something I wrote publicly in a non-BB article they were writing. They asked me for my permission even though I had posted my comments publicly. It is just polite to do so and when I was asked my respect for the individual grew, it did NOT diminish. There is a lesson in their conduct I think.

[cjurakpt]

fair enough...and yes, I agree you are not advocating banning per se, just giving a reasoned perspective...and maybe, for whatever reason, I am using some of my credit in the bank on his behalf (maybe 'cause I think I know who he is as well, and am going on that "hunch"?); anyway...

[PangQuan]

well i have a question.

suppose you get a PM from someone. suppose you never asked for a Private Conversation?

they can forcably put you in a situation where you have to recieve private text even though you never asked for it?

sure you can just not open it, but we all have that curious side to us.

you cant just not open a pm....that would kill the cat in all of us.

so you get a PM. you never asked for it, you open it out of curiousity, read it and get offended.

at this point you have to just keep it private? now this is out of the context of the current situation mind you. completely false scenario im describing.

So i get a PM, i read it, its mean, and I have to keep it private? That just doesnt sound right to me for some reason....maybe if your going to send confrontational information to someone in a PM you should think about what they might feel when they read it. If you send someone something out of the blue that they did not ask for and your being confrontational I think you have stepped over the line of poper etiquette in the first place.

thus etiquette is out the window for both parties IMO.

if you out of the blue insult someone in a private message, welll.......common sense dictates they will retaliate....what better way to relatiate on a PM in a public forum than to make it public?

well, i suppose etiquette goes in all directions and the first to breach the code of netiquette is the first to state un official "its on"

btw, Im not Notintheface either. lol.
but im hella bored at work and need to pass time.

[@PLUGO]

Doesn't matter who he is . . . he's banned now. We could always hunt down any other persona's he floats around with and ban those as well . . .