Traditional Training In A Modern Society

[DMK]

I have been reading differnt post and noticed concerns over lineages of students that may or may not have learned from teachers and passing down the closets method that was taught by there teacher. In or modern society it is imperative that indoor or what I call private students encourage there teachers to keep records of indoors students, what they learned and how long.
This will help to keep fighting down and inflating of lineages. I have heard of students learning bits and pieces of material then open schools ,and using ther teachers name .WOW .
The message here is to Promote and Continue what was passed to you and Produce ,Quality students.
If we don't get a grab of passing down quality material by the best qualified student'(theory is one part,you have to show as well) then TCMA WILL BE LOST.
With that in mind it brings on another concern EGOS , classmate fighting, these traits must go,after all who wants to join a school\family with in school fighting.WUDE should be your first lesson,although it is hardly practiced.
Take a stand in our system practice hard, work together. and continue the methods learned by your teacher. This is the Honrable THING TO DO.
Good Luck

[TCosta]

Hear, Hear! I would second that.

[Dale Dugas]

I agree with you.

Train hard and master what you have before you call yourself a master.

Be well,

Dale

[sanjuro_ronin]

The honourable thing would be the stop that closed door crap.

[gabe]

When I boxed, my trainer spent a lot of time with me, and very little with others, some of whom were there much longer. Why? Because he liked me. He showed me things that he didn't teach to the others. Not just because he liked me, but obviously because I'm built different and fight different- obvious, right? Others got different stuff, same reasons. And the majority of people at that gym got next to nothing. This is closed door training. Which is just a label describing a relationship. No different in eastern or western arts. You don't get what you paid for, everybody paid dues. You get what you get because the teacher likes you.

That lineage battle in the other thread, well, the guy in question isn't supposed to look like his teacher or his classmates, he's supposed to look like himself. He had a relationship with his teacher and got what he got. Anybody that questions how he plays his fu questions the guy that taught him.

[cjurakpt]

you know, I hate to sound like a stick in the mud, but, despite the below poster's obvious good intentions, I think that a lot of what he espouses is actually characteristic of what's wrong with a lot of TCMA, in terms of allowing a lot of ancillary, impractical and even downright bogus cr@p to escape the blade of evolution...


I have been reading differnt post and noticed concerns over lineages of students that may or may not have learned from teachers and passing down the closets method that was taught by there teacher. In or modern society it is imperative that indoor or what I call private students encourage there teachers to keep records of indoors students, what they learned and how long.
this is not only impractical (what, the teacher's going to keep handwritten logs of everything they taught?), it doesn't mean squat - it will only give documented evidence that someone learned something from someone: it says nothing about skill, it only "verifies" that you spent more face time with your teacher; and what? who is to say that the teacher is so unbiased to begin with that he will pick based on quality, that he will not lie, that he is to be trusted in anyway? how do you verify this?


This will help to keep fighting down and inflating of lineages. I have heard of students learning bits and pieces of material then open schools ,and using ther teachers name .WOW .
welcome to the ENTIRE HISTORY of TCMA...you do realize that TCMA teachers actually have been known to take $$$ from TOTAL STRANGERS to allow them to reference them as instructor, right? don't blame it all on the students - they learned by example...


The message here is to Promote and Continue what was passed to you and Produce ,Quality students.
in a lot of cases, that would probably mean NOT teaching them what was passed on to you...cynicism aside, this has nothing to do with lineage - different people will produce quality students (whatever that actually means) under different circumstances for different reasons - no amount of externally imposed "quality control" will ever have significant impact on that


If we don't get a grab of passing down quality material by the best qualified student'(theory is one part,you have to show as well) then TCMA WILL BE LOST.
it's already lost - if you read around on here a bit, there are numerous discussions about how TCMA in the last 100 years had been altered radically from how it was taught before; and BTW, what's so terrible about that? why is it that preserving some quasi-mystical "ancient" practice is inherently important? if someone said that you had to preserve the kind of medicine they practiced 2,000 years ago just for its own sake, that's all well and good, but it dissapearing wouldn't be that big a deal either; besides, if you understand Ch'an, it would be the first to tell you to stop drinking the dregs of someone else's meal...


With that in mind it brings on another concern EGOS , classmate fighting, these traits must go,after all who wants to join a school\family with in school fighting.WUDE should be your first lesson,although it is hardly practiced.
welcome to the human race; families always fought, always will; MA schools will ALWAYS have conlict internally - it's the nature of society - to think otherwise is naiive; and hello, you can't address the issue of ego by setting up a structure that actually inlates it: the whole notion of a teacher "verifying" his student's credentials is fundamentally an act of building up the student's ego - much better the master throws him out the door after 20 years without a word to anyone...
wu de is one of many pseudo-intellectual artifacts created and propagated by TCMA practitioners trying to gentrify the TCMA world so that they could shed the historical stench associated with being a professional fighter (basically a low life according to Chinese culture) and hopefully attract students with some financial means to study with them as "scholar warriors" (the CHinese equivalent of "weekend warriors" here)


Take a stand in our system practice hard, work together. and continue the methods learned by your teacher. This is the Honrable THING TO DO.
Good Luck
the problem is that this romanticized view of what TCMA was / is sets up an unrealistic context, with lofty goals that don't matter for squat in terms of learning to fight (hence the old saw "kung fu is more than fighting" spiel); bottom line: you don't need "wu de" to become a skilled fighter; and you don't need to learn TCMA to be an honourable man - they are mutually independent; there is likewise no gestalt effect when you combine the two, sorry to say; people will work together if it suits their purpose, and they will turn around and be azzholes to each other at the drop of a hat; taking great pains to keep track of someone's level in a given system will furthermore yield little fruit - if anything, it will create disharmony, because at root, it is setting up a comparative / hierarchical dichotomy (basically "I am this / those others are not this")

if you want true "harmony", true freedom, the best is to be by yourself - move through the world without attachment, without craving, without concern for title, lineage, etc. - judge based on what is in front of you, not what someone else tells you is supposed to be there;

if you wish it put more eloquently, I suggest considering the following:
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/k_pathless.htm

[Scott R. Brown]

A beautiful illustration of Idealism meets Pragmatism, cjurakpt!;)

Hi DMK,

Your idealism is laudable, but as cjurakpt implies, harmony is begins within the individual not the world system. When we create structures designed to coerce others to conform to our own preconceived set of ideals we become exactly what we are trying to avoid.

The sun shines on everyone without prejudice; Tao accomplishes all things and does not lay claim to anything. If we lead by example some will follow because they are inclined to do so, those who don't wouldn't anyway.

[cjurakpt]

A beautiful illustration of Idealism meets Pragmatism, cjurakpt!
thank you


... as cjurakpt implies,
implies? IMPLIES?!? Odd's Fish man, if that's implication, what would stating it directly be like? mallet to the os frontalis? TNT in the undershorts?:eek::eek::eek:
;)


harmony is begins within the individual not the world system. When we create structures designed to coerce others to conform to our own preconceived set of ideals we become exactly what we are trying to avoid.
otherwise, very nice summation - very pithy, very concise


The sun shines on everyone without prejudice; Tao accomplishes all things and does not lay claim to anything. If we lead by example some will follow because they are inclined to do so, those who don't wouldn't anyway.
it's so simple - why do we all keep forgetting it?
here's another version of it, also told by K.:

You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, "What did that man pick up?" "He picked up a piece of Truth," said the devil. "That is a very bad business for you, then," said his friend. "Oh, not at all," the devil replied, "I am going to let him organize it."

[Scott R. Brown]

implies? IMPLIES?!? Odd's Fish man, if that's implication, what would stating it directly be like? mallet to the os frontalis? TNT in the undershorts?:eek::eek::eek:;)

LOL!! Weeeeeeeell...I am so used to qualifying my statements in an effort to avoid an absolute statement I do it automatically. To state unequivocally what I believed your comments to mean implies I completely understand your intent. I perceive that my personal biases could lead me to believe you are stating something I think you mean, but that in actuality I am incorrect in my understanding. I am hesitant to state what I think I understand about your comments as an absolute so I qualified my impression with "Implies" to avoid taking a firm stance in the event I projected what I wanted you to say onto your statements. :D:D:D:D

Now THAT makes sense, doesn't it??:confused:


Sorry, force of habit!;)

[Water Dragon]

gabe has just accepted the correct as a closed door disciple.