Ditang/ ground techniques

[Leto]

I would like to start a thread discussing the methods and applications of the ground techniques of various styles.
I know ditang quan is a style in its own right, but many styles include ground techniques as a part of their curriculum.
Do most traditional styles include some form of tumbling in their basic skillset?

How does your style develop these skills? Do students begin learning to fall and roll (and get up again) from the very beginning of training? It seems like such skills ought to be fundamental to any marial arts curriculum.

Do you learn "breakfalls" by slapping the ground as you land, or use some other method?
Does your style utilize strikes performed from a prone position? kneeling, squatting, or otherwise extremely low to the ground? What types of strikes are trained, and is any wrestling/grappling included in these techniques?

Techniques I am familiar with include rolling to escape a grab or get out of range, rolling to quickly get into close range for grabbing or strikes, rolling while grappling, like grabbing and pulling someone's legs out from under them.
Falling as a way of evading and striking at the same time, falling and dragging someone down with you, falling on an already downed opponent. kicking the legs or groin from a prone position, sweeping from prone position, reaching up from a prone position to drag someone down.

Do you ever incorporate techniques like this into sparring/free fighting, or is it just something you do in forms that are never applied?

From many people, we hear "you should never go to the ground willingly". While I understand the sentiment, how did styles like monkey and drunken (which heavily rely on unorthodox attacks, including falling and attacks from the ground), get a reputation for being good? If they really aren't any good, why did they spread and become as famous as they are?

A young student "Joe" who trained in my school relayed an experience he had: His PE class in school offered a kickboxing/"karate" course. Having some experience in martial arts, he was allowed to spar with other kids who also had experience. His opponent was a big kid who came charging at him with fists flailing, and "Joe" performed a drop kick like he had learned in one of our crane forms, hitting his opponent in the chest or stomach and knocking the wind out of him. He got up and helped up his opponent who was clutching his stomach. The coach then proceded to scold "Joe", saying "You should never go to the ground". Joe just shrugged his shoulders, feeling that his dropping technique seemed to have been quite effective.
Perhaps such a technique isn't a good idea against a very experienced opponent, and certainly not when surrounded by opponents, but it seems to be applicable in some situations. The element of surprise can easily tip the scales in your favor, and buy you the few split-seconds you need to gain complete advantage. Sometimes you end up prone on the ground unintentionally, and it is good to be able to threaten your opponent from that position and have the skill to turn a fall into an attack.

What are your thoughts? What importance is placed on ditang/ground techniques in your style?

[Leto]

I guess no one wants to talk about technical stuff. Or no one practices this sort of ground technique in their style. Oh well. Maybe it's a secret.

I brought it up because they are interesting techniques from some forms, and wondered if anyone actually applied them in their training, or just did it for show and athleticism.

[ittokaos]

Well, no. I guess no one here does Ground Boxing therefore no response. I know my sifu learned some in his younger days but he has not taught me any of it. The one thing that I do know is that it is usually practiced by Southern Mantis guys. Your best bet is to have this moved to the southern kung fu forum. They should be able to help you better than people who would rather go on and on about USSD and Shaolin Do than to talk about shaolin kung fu in a shaolin kung fu forum.

I hope this helps,


WF

[tattooedmonk]

Well, you know in the forms we have there is a great deal of these techniques. The mantis has them , black tigers, cranes, ground monkey,etc. I love using those techniques and no one really expects them because of the commitment involved. I have been learning a Di tang double broadsword set that is all on the ground. totally amazing!!!

[SenseiShellie]

In BJJ, we learn how to roll forwards and backwards, break our falls properly, learn to move the hips on the ground and more. We learn techniques, partner drills, submissions and then get to "spar." You'd be better suited asking people in a BJJ what they do in class. Every class/instructor teaches differently.

[tattooedmonk]

In BJJ, we learn how to roll forwards and backwards, break our falls properly, learn to move the hips on the ground and more. We learn techniques, partner drills, submissions and then get to "spar." You'd be better suited asking people in a BJJ what they do in class. Every class/instructor teaches differently.
This is about CMA ground fighting techniques, not MMA / BJJJ/ JJ techniques.

[jdhowland]

Tibetan White Crane does a lot of ground fighting techniques and tumbling with or without weapons. The idea is that our attacks should not have to be grounded through the stance in order to have proper release of jing. The practitioner should be comfortable moving directly from a jumping attack to a ground sweep and back up into a kick, as an example.
I learned breakfalls and ground fighting in this system on a concrete floor. It has its advantages: no mat burns and the floor will always be in the same place. Professor Okazaki of Danzan Ryu fame used to teach his students on a concrete pad, as well.
The theory behind breakfalls is the same as in jujitsu--take up the shock with as much surface contact as possible while still protecting the spine and vital organs. A difference between our style and judo ukemi is that we don't break by slapping, preferring to keep the hands warding the head during the fall.
Rattan shield techniques (typically with a short weapon such as single knife) involve a lot of tumbling and crouching to protect the legs against longer weapons. The upper back can get pretty scraped up when practicing this on natural terrain.
Here's a typical method from our school: "A" rushes an attack on"B" who falls away from the fist attack while executing a flying scissors (not recommended as an opening attack). "B" continues rotating after they are grounded and prevents "A" from recovering quickly by a strong downward heel kick. "B" then attempts to jump up quickly to avoid being drawn into ground grappling by flipping his pelvis the opposite way and rolling over one shoulder (looks like break dancing). I think this technique shows a bias of our style which was supposedly developed by Tibetan-Mongolian wrestlers to defeat other wrestlers.

[SenseiShellie]

This is about CMA ground fighting techniques, not MMA / BJJJ/ JJ techniques.

I haven't really seen a TCMA teach ground fighting. I have seen standing Chin Na, but other than that, no. That's why I was mentioning BJJ.

[Leto]

JD, thank you for the reply
That sounds very much like the techniques in the white crane forms I know, including the stomp on the ground after a dropping leg scissor.
The falling method of keeping the hands and arms in front of the body is also used by my style, we don't slap the ground but try to land with as much area of the back touching as possible. We never used any mats, either...just a concrete floor with thin carpet.

Speaking of the leg scissors, check out these illustrations of self defense strategies from a 19th century Chinese text on Fujian white crane and arhat boxing (luohan quan)
(This has been passed down as "Bubishi" in Okinawa, possibly something that was used by the pioneers of Okinawan karate)

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/Taiji_changes/legscissor.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/Taiji_changes/dropscissors.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/Taiji_changes/rollthrow.jpg

TTM, yes, those are exactly the forms I'm talking about. Especially the black tigers, I would like to see if any other styles has techniques similar to those...such as in Hei Hu Fan Shen (flips the body), the jumping up and clawing backwards technique (lying on back) that is repeated six times...there are several apps I see as possibilities there, but we never really explored it. What do you think is the best or most realistic application of that one?

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, yes, those are exactly the forms I'm talking about. Especially the black tigers, I would like to see if any other styles has techniques similar to those...such as in Hei Hu Fan Shen (flips the body), the jumping up and clawing backwards technique (lying on back) that is repeated six times...there are several apps I see as possibilities there, but we never really explored it. What do you think is the best or most realistic application of that one? I would say that the pulling someone down who is standing above you , crawling away while being attacked, pulling at someones back or front who is sitting on top of you , blocking strikes being rained down on you, dealing with someone who has you in a rear naked choke, etc. There are so many. Do these sound like some of the ideas you have had?? You should really practice this aspect of our art. GMT always has said that ground fighting( grappling and striking ) is 1/3rd of the art.

[Leto]

Most of those things I have considered. I don't really see it as blocking attacks coming down on you, as the hands aren't staying up in front of you...but the kicking part could be pushing someone away. I was taught that you should pop your body up as high as you can...don't know if that is for application, or for conditioning and presentation. You would want to pop up really high in order to grab someone and drag them down, though it's sort of an awkward position to do that from. Maybe that's the point. I haven't really tried it, I'm not sure how well that would work. I considered that it could be dealing with someone trying to choke you from behind, or underneath you, and that seems to fit pretty well. It could be throwing someone off from on top of you, also, that's what the body arch/kicking could be used for, like a wrestler trying to avoid the pin.
If it's getting away from someone standing and coming at you, then it should be performed differently, faster not worrying about getting height off the ground, and the hands wouldn't really need to be involved so much. but the move which follows would make sense for the person to be in front of you, sitting up and grabbing, then throwing as you roll in the opposite direction (or pulling legs out from under, or doing a wrestling reversal)

It seems like the best option is for dealing with someone coming down on you, sitting on you, or trying to pin you...arching, popping up your hips, kicking and using the arms to try to control their arms, then sitting up and grabbing them and rolling to get the upper position. It's something I'd have to practice a lot to really figure out all the details, and determine if the form techniques really match the imagined application. (don't really have partners to do this with right now)

There are certainly a lot of ground techniques in many of our forms. I didn't get to see any ground monkey, but stone monkey is a form I really like, as well. It's interesting that two of our three crane forms are really low to the ground with rolling or prone techniques.

[tattooedmonk]

......as the arm is reaching up above your head it can be used as an upward forearm block as you are backing up to get a way. As if the person was standing over you , advancing in a horse stance ,throwing punches.

These techniques really need to be a focal point and something that is practice on to a greater degree in the art!!

The way it is performed as a form and how it is applied is slightly different , but it should not be , the same body mechanics through these ranges of motion should be utilized in both.

[Leto]

well that makes sense, everything that was mentioned could be applied to that technique. Someone else, who's still in the system, said his master/teacher told them is was clawing to the eyes, or grabbing the groin, of someone behind you, that's why you jump up high. That seems like an awkward position to be in, but maybe that's the point. You lash out, launching attacks from whatever position you're in, grabbing onto anything you get your claws on.
Of course, the way things are taught there's no way to spend time on working out all the possibilities...you get one simple application and move on.

How about drop kicks. Anyone practice these? When do you think it is most appropriate to use them?

[tattooedmonk]

well that makes sense, everything that was mentioned could be applied to that technique. Someone else, who's still in the system, said his master/teacher told them is was clawing to the eyes, or grabbing the groin, of someone behind you, that's why you jump up high. That seems like an awkward position to be in, but maybe that's the point. You lash out, launching attacks from whatever position you're in, grabbing onto anything you get your claws on.
Of course, the way things are taught there's no way to spend time on working out all the possibilities...you get one simple application and move on.

How about drop kicks. Anyone practice these? When do you think it is most appropriate to use them?That is the most popular application, but as you should know there are many applications to one technique. The flying / suicide kicks have multiple applications as well . Think of it as doing let say a flying scissor sweep or take down from a kick being grabbed.:D