Realistic tai chi...

[Knifefighter]

Some realistic tai chi grappling sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA

Nice stuff.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Wow, surprised you are the one who posted that!

[Knifefighter]

Wow, surprised you are the one who posted that!

Why is that?

[SPJ]

there are some regular pushhand competitions in China, Taiwan and other countries.

there is also the world cup event.

--

:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why is that?

Reply]
Well, because it's actual Tai Chi usage, done in practice like it's supposed to be...and you recognized it. Most times you are Poo pooing TCMAs

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDXRjXEhLGY

an intro Tai Chi pushhand clip for people that are interested.

you start with fixed step pushhand.

then moving step pushhand.

finally free/random step/moving pushhand.

and you also practice small, mid and large circles etc etc.

:D

[cjurakpt]

I would add this one as well:

http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm

[Ben Gash]

I know smalltins, he's a student of my first teacher. Apparently the Chen village has been getting increasingly rough in it's push hands lately. When they went earlier this year, my teacher was asked to participate in what he thought was a friendly bit of pushing hands (they'd been there for 4 hours at this point). The guy came in and slammed him in the shin. In his next cycle he then headbutted him full in the face :eek: My teacher then clinched with him, did a minute or two of standing grappling, and then threw him with a belly to belly suplex :D

[Fu-Pow]

Defnitely saw some Tajij from the guy in blue. The guy in black less so.

This brings up an interesting point that I've been thinking about. Some want to define "internal" as something mystica or related to "chi" but I think really what it is about is subtlety.

"External" refers to gross movements, "internal" refers to a movement that is more refined, more subtle, harder to determine whats going on.

The more "internal" you are the less it appears that you are doing and yet the intended effect is often greater. The reason being that the opponent often has a harder time knowing what you are doing because it is concealed within more subtle movements.

I don't think that this is only true of the so called "internal arts" but can be developed in any martial art....especially those that work within clinch range.

In "internal arts" this subtlety is trained from the beginning, looking for a very high degree of refinement first and then applicability.

In regards to what "real taiji" looks like and this video. This video shows very gross movements. If the practitioners were of a higher level of skill then the the movement would be more subtle, to the point that you might think it was "fake" because you wouldn't see a lot going on and then all of a sudden a dramatic result.

It doesn't mean that they aren't doing Taiji but that it is at a gross level.

I'm not saying that this subtlety is only in Taiji, I would expect the same thing from high level Judo players for example.... a high degree of refinement in their movement...which often looks like less movement.

FP

[Christopher M]

A swing and a miss.

[Fu-Pow]

A swing and a miss.

Is that comment directed at my post?

[mantis108]

Definitely nice to see push hand that doesn't resemble hands chasing only. It is also nice to see that they are able to practice what they preach. There's not only going with the flow like Judo, wrestling and Shuai Jiao but also repelling as well. So both the yin and the yang are covered just what Taiji is supposed to do. Me likey. :D

Thanks for sharing Knife Fighter

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Why is that?

Reply]
Well, because it's actual Tai Chi usage, done in practice like it's supposed to be...and you recognized it. Most times you are Poo pooing TCMAs

The thing about KF is that he's NOT anti CMA. He's anti garbage. He's complimented some san shou vids that were posted as well.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, I am starting to see that.

[PangQuan]

from what ive noticed KF gives credit where credits due, though he may be one of the first to call BS, generally its supported by his reasons.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q__o_5gNX0w

Taiwan vs Singapore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPs2hKszQkk&mode=related&search=

world cup in Taipei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-qTIDCtSZk&mode=related&search=

Taiwan's national game.

:)

[Knifefighter]

Tai chi push hands is kind of like Sumo for normal sized people.

[cjurakpt]

Tai chi push hands is kind of like Sumo for normal sized people.

possible quote of the year...

actually, the TC guys who I referenced with the link above are all big sumo fans, and have looked to sumo for ideas in their push hands training

[yutyeesam]

Tai chi push hands is kind of like Sumo for normal sized people.

I like that parallel. Makes me wonder if studying training methods of Sumo would be a more efficient path towards gaining skill in TC push hands?

[unkokusai]

The Nagoya basho just ended. Asashoryu won again for his 21st yusho!

[SevenStar]

I like that parallel. Makes me wonder if studying training methods of Sumo would be a more efficient path towards gaining skill in TC push hands?

mas judt has been saying on this forum for a few years that sumo has a lot in common with shuai chiao as well.

[SevenStar]

Akebono pushing Chen zhan jun (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw)

This isn't a sumo rules match or anything, so akebono really didn't do anything other than lay weight onto him. It is still interesting to see how well chen handles it tho

[PangQuan]

there is this movie

Budo: The Art of Killing

Supremely Cheesy vid, BUT there is some nice actual video footage in there, that anyone with any sort of actual exerience in MA could see whats good and whats not.

But really check it out there is some neat Sumo footage in there.

There is even this giant Scot teaching some JAPANESE how to Sumo, freaking great.

you might think hes japanese till you see his chops and take a close look at him when it shows his face.

[Mas Judt]

The core syllabus of Sumo throws is common to most Shuai Chiao schools - it differs from there. based on where it is from and how it works, Taiji has always seemed as an evolution from stand up grappling - a lot more going on there than meets the eye. But only when done well - and many Taiji schools have gone off in other directions...

[Mas Judt]

Knifefighter is not the troll everyone makes him out to be. I love CMA, but my opinions are training are very similar to his... although in Shuai Chiao there is live training...

[The Xia]

But really check it out there is some neat Sumo footage in there.
That Scot is one hell of a Sumo wrestler. He has an interesting breathing exercise that he created. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vTg_s8oDIg

[LeeCasebolt]

mas judt has been saying on this forum for a few years that sumo has a lot in common with shuai chiao as well.

Wrestling looks like wrestling? Crazy talk! :D

[SevenStar]

"some practitioners believe that tai chi should always be soft. When it gets hard, push hands starts looking more like sumo wrestling. Critics discountsuch bouts as not being 'true' tai chi because fighting like that loses the essence of internal style."


"Sometimes you need to try feeling internal power, feeling other people, slowly gentlemanly. That's one tai chi way. Another way, if you go (to a) tournament to become champion, you cannot always do that. Because if you (do) that, you will lose. Sometimes, use more hard because your kung fu is not enough. If you're the same level, better you're a little bit hard. Better don't (be) too gentle. Then you lose."

[Fu-Pow]

"some practitioners believe that tai chi should always be soft. When it gets hard, push hands starts looking more like sumo wrestling. Critics discountsuch bouts as not being 'true' tai chi because fighting like that loses the essence of internal style."

Posted before:

In regards to what "real taiji" looks like and this video. This video shows very gross movements. If the practitioners were of a higher level of skill then the the movement would be more subtle, to the point that you might think it was "fake" because you wouldn't see a lot going on and then all of a sudden a dramatic result.

It doesn't mean that they aren't doing Taiji but that it is at a gross level.

I'm not saying that this subtlety is only in Taiji, I would expect the same thing from high level Judo players for example.... a high degree of refinement in their movement...which often looks like less movement.



" Sometimes, use more hard because your kung fu is not enough. "

Important part.


The point is that "Taiji" is an ideal to be achieved, its not always practically achievable. That's not to say there aren't those who are "there", that have reached a ridiculously high level of motor skill and sensitivity that they literally embody those principles in every movement they make.

My current approach is to train to be as efficient as possible but plan B is to have some reserve of strength/endurance when you can't be. Why train to be inefficient, its doesn't make any sense?

Ultimately Taiji is a study of movement, how to be the most efficient in Martial Arts. How to get a big return on a small expenditure. The principles of Taiji that we hear about so much are a way to help you achieve that....even if it can't always be maintained.

I have a feeling that if you dig deeper into many of the "clinch range" arts ie Shuai Jiao, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Sumo, Sambo, Wrestling, etc. you will find many of the same principles even if they are not as clearly delineated as they are in the Taij canon.

The problem with Taiji training as it currently exists is there isn't a "plan b" when you lack the skills to make the more advanced techniques work...they take a long time to develop. So it might make sense to cross train is something a little more basic and then layer those Taiji skills on top of what you already know.

If you look at many of the famous Taji fighters this exactly the pattern their training took. This was how my Taiji Sigung learned, he started in Shaolin and Tong Bei, then Xin Yi Quan and finally Chen Taiji.

FP

[Knifefighter]

My current approach is to train to be as efficient as possible but plan B is to have some reserve of strength/endurance when you can't be. Why train to be inefficient, its doesn't make any sense?

Whatever the activity- Tai Chi, Shaou Shiao, Wrestling, Judo, Sumo, BJJ, boxing, kung fu, Muay Thai, Sambo- unless you are significantly more skilled than your opponent, you will always need to utilize quite a bit of strength, power and endurance if you are going live against resisting opponents. To think otherwise is the sign of someone who doesn't train in a live manner.

[Mulong]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

[Knifefighter]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

Could you point us to a clip of something that shows this supposed high level of skill?

[Mulong]

There are some VCD that show good taiji fighting principles from a Chenshi taijiquan and Yangshi taijiquan point of view; however, there are most likely not on Youtube.

Actually, picked a very rare one of Chen, Xiaowang.

[Knifefighter]

There are some VCD that show good taiji fighting principles from a Chenshi taijiquan and Yangshi taijiquan point of view; however, there are most likely not on Youtube.

Actually, picked a very rare one of Chen, Xiaowang.

Maybe you could download one for us to see.

[Christopher M]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

The original clip? I didn't think it was billed as "taiji tuishou per se", but rather simply as shuai, which, as you say, is what it was.


Could you point us to a clip of something that shows this supposed high level of skill?

Well, the difference between tuishou and shuai isn't that one is high and the other is low level. Although maybe that was the implication after all...

[Christopher M]

Of course: we shouldn't expect things which aren't tuishou to look like tuishou.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It looked like Push Hands to me. The object is to learn to feel you opponents balance, and then when you can lead them to the opportune moment, take thier center of balance away from them (or lead them into giving it up), and then throw them effortlessly...because your opponent did the work for you.

That is pretty much what we see in those clips. The guy in blue seems to ONLY be issuing power once he has led his opponent to a state of unbalance, his structure and mechanics are good, so that is a good example of push hands.

That is the ultimate goal of taiji....keep you opponent unbalanced so they are never on solid enough grounds to offer a real attack.

Push hands teaches you to feel thier structure, and to use the various techniques in the form, at the proper time to guide them out of a state of balance.

It also teaches you to counter and redirect incoming forces when an opponent tries to do the same to you.

You are not trying to fight *against* a *resisting* opponent, you are trying to redirect the attackers force so you don't have to deal with it directly, and in such a way that the opponent gives up his balance...even if for the briefest second, so we can apply force of our own at a point when we get the most results, from the least effort.

Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

[Fu-Pow]

You are not trying to fight *against* a *resisting* opponent, you are trying to redirect the attackers force so you don't have to deal with it directly, and in such a way that the opponent gives up his balance...even if for the briefest second, so we can apply force of our own at a point when we get the most results, from the least effort.

Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

Beautifully put RD.

[stricker]

have you read what tim cartmell (bjj black belt and long time taiji dude) has to say about push hands? i cant remember where but i read him saying he thought it was basically wrestling sparring but they got to the point of just taking the balance etc and saying 'i got you' without actually finishing the takedown or whatever. then it turned into a game and the wrestling bit got lost etc...

also, i saw a think on the tv last night called Last Man Standing, they had clips of jungle wrestling in south america and then mongolian wrestling, and believe it or not, different rules etc, but they were all wrestling and lo and behold, it all looked like wrestling... funny that :cool:

[Christopher M]

It looked like Push Hands to me. The object is to learn to feel you opponents balance, and then when you can lead them to the opportune moment, take thier center of balance away from them (or lead them into giving it up), and then throw them effortlessly...because your opponent did the work for you.

That is pretty much what we see in those clips.

On this basis, judo randori is pushhands too.

On the other hand, maybe pushhands isn't any practice where you try to offbalance your opponent, but rather has something to do with the distinctive nature of taijiquan -- like, say, the systematic training of zhan, nian, lian, and sui in the context of peng, lu, ji, and an?


Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

Similarly, because weight lifting makes you stronger, if you weight lift right, you should be able to overpower everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And because running makes you faster, you should be able to get away from everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And when Royce Gracie has to make an effort to get position or a submission, it's just evidence that he's not doing BJJ right.

Or maybe these are all overwhelmingly silly ways to understand the training of physical skills.

For viewing pleasure: More Taiji clinch work NOT in a tuishou format (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAHqZCYAn1U), Tuishou with Shuai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss).

[Fu-Pow]

On this basis, judo randori is pushhands too.

On the other hand, maybe pushhands isn't any practice where you try to offbalance your opponent, but rather has something to do with the distinctive nature of taijiquan -- like, say, the systematic training of zhan, nian, lian, and sui in the context of peng, lu, ji, and an?

He's trying to put into a context that a non-taiji player can understand.




Similarly, because weight lifting makes you stronger, if you weight lift right, you should be able to overpower everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And because running makes you faster, you should be able to get away from everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And when Royce Gracie has to make an effort to get position or a submission, it's just evidence that he's not doing BJJ right.

Taiji, done correctly doesn't look like "overpowering" anyone.



Or maybe these are all overwhelmingly silly ways to understand the training of physical skills.

You haven't demonstrated that.



For viewing pleasure: More Taiji clinch work NOT in a tuishou format (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAHqZCYAn1U), Tuishou with Shuai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss).

Nice clips. However, knifefighter won't buy it because its not done under sparring conditions.

[Knifefighter]

Nice clips. However, knifefighter won't buy it because its not done under sparring conditions.

The second clip was complete B.S. and not the least bit realistic.

The first one was more realistic and indicative of a grappler who has a much better understanding of control points than his opponents.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taiji is a principle based system, as long as the principles are there, its Taiji, wither it be more grappling oriented like those clips or more strike oriented like the stuff of CC Chen in New York.

[shrub]

Don't forget the Tai Chi symbol is made up of half Yin and half Yang. You have to have strength to compliment the soft.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, but strength is only applied after you have lead your opponent to a state of unbalance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You wanna see a perfect display of Yin-yang in grappling?
See two top level BJJ players go at it.

[Fu-Pow]

You wanna see a perfect display of Yin-yang in grappling?
See two top level BJJ players go at it.

No doubt. That's what makes it boring to watch. :D

[Knifefighter]

You wanna see a perfect display of Yin-yang in grappling?
See two top level BJJ players go at it.

And there is a ton of strength and power being used at that level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And there is a ton of strength and power being used at that level.

Yep, and a ton of giving and going with the motion, of flowing from one move to another in an ALMOST effortless fashion, perfect blend of yin and yang.

[Fu-Pow]

And there is a ton of strength and power being used at that level.

So I think the question is not whether Taiji uses strength/power, its WHEN it is used.

First (or simultaneously) the opponent is led off balance and THEN the power is issued. In those with a high skill level, this "unbalancing" happens so fast you don't see it, only the issuing of power. And once you opponent is off balance its takes very little strength/power to see a large result.

In the second video of the oldman you can see him off balance the opponent and then slam him to the ground with little effort. Its not because he's super strong, its because he knows how to upset the youngman's balance and then applies a small amount of force and basically "helps" him to fall.

So how do you unbalance someone without unbalancing yourself? The key is in a circle or a sphere shape....ie you can't unbalance a ball, there is always a line of gravity straight up and down that connects the bottom and the top.

The human body is not a "ball" but it can be "connected" in such a way that it takes on similar properties. Its not a hard ball but more like a squishy raquetball. This "squishiness" is what is referred to as "peng" in Taiji. Movements are always done is a spiral fashion which maintains this "internal" connectedness.


FP

[Knifefighter]

Yep, and a ton of giving and going with the motion, of flowing from one move to another in an ALMOST effortless fashion, perfect blend of yin and yang.

Hahahaha... far from effortless.

[Knifefighter]

In the second video of the oldman you can see him off balance the opponent and then slam him to the ground with little effort. Its not because he's super strong, its because he knows how to upset the youngman's balance and then applies a small amount of force and basically "helps" him to fall.

It is either because the young guy is completely clueless or is letting him do it. A first year high school wrestler would not have given him the angles that guy did.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hahahaha... far from effortless.

I said "ALMOST effortless FASHION"..:D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xGoR4rxgH8s&mode=related&search=

The good ones alwys make it seem easy and effortless, maybe that is were the "confusion" in regards to what LOOKS like "real" Taiji comes from....

[Fu-Pow]

It is either because the young guy is completely clueless or is letting him do it. A first year high school wrestler would not have given him the angles that guy did.

Where do you live? I will find you someone to go push hands with...I think that's only way you will be convinced of anything.

FP

[Knifefighter]

Where do you live? I will find you someone to go push hands with...I think that's only way you will be convinced of anything.

I'm in the LA area. I'd definitely be up to get together with someone who would be interested in doing this.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yep, and a ton of giving and going with the motion, of flowing from one move to another in an ALMOST effortless fashion, perfect blend of yin and yang.

Reply]
If this is what BJJ is, then Taiji Quan would be the most logical stand up system to pair with it because it operates on the same type of principals.

[Knifefighter]

Fu Pow:

What is your experience as far as doing freestyle push hands type stuff against freestyle or greco wrestlers or judo players?

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow:

What is your experience as far as doing freestyle push hands type stuff against freestyle or greco wrestlers or judo players?

None. Just haven't had any opportunities actually.

FP

[Knifefighter]

None. Just haven't had any opportunities actually.

OK, then, how much have you gone freestyle push hands against people who don't do tai chi or some other kind of "push hands" type of style?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think push hands is only done by Tai Chi guys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, and a ton of giving and going with the motion, of flowing from one move to another in an ALMOST effortless fashion, perfect blend of yin and yang.

Reply]
If this is what BJJ is, then Taiji Quan would be the most logical stand up system to pair with it because it operates on the same type of principals.

I showed some Judo newaza/BJJ to a Chen taiji local master and he loved it.
Said it was a perfect compliment to his taiji.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have heard rummurs of a Zhao Bao Taiji master who is doing the same.

I know there have been some taiji guys who have competed in MMA with success as well.

I would think that Bagua Zhang guys would also fall into this category too, because Bagua uses similar principals to Taiji, they just have much more circular and slippery footwork.

[SPJ]

"push hand" as a practice or training step is not unique in Tai Chi. It is also in many other styles.

actually, Tai Chi borrowed it and developed it as a way of practice of 13 posture training/practicing.

Tai chi also borrowed the long pole practice to develop several Jin power practice.



http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/pushand.htm

a link to some Tai Chi push hand rules.

http://www.magictortoise.com/TournRules.pdf

Tai Chi competition rules in Kuoshu federation.


http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/ph.html

an interesting article.

http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/125.cfm

an explanation page.

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have heard rummurs of a Zhao Bao Taiji master who is doing the same.

I know there have been some taiji guys who have competed in MMA with success as well.

I would think that Bagua Zhang guys would also fall into this category too, because Bagua uses similar principals to Taiji, they just have much more circular and slippery footwork.

I know a few that started and love it to death.
The fact they don't get punched in the face helps :D

[unkokusai]

What is your experience as far as doing freestyle push hands type stuff against freestyle or greco wrestlers or judo players?

I've done push-hands stuff with taiqichuan folks. Depends on who is doing it, but as you might expect they are not really equipped to deal with leg shots at all (not sure how 'free'style you are thinking) and they don't handle wrist control, russians, duck-unders, or arm drags done at full speed very well. The more restricted the context of the push-hands, the better they were (naturally enough).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think to a certian degree,push hands is a way to train certain sensitivity attributes for stand up fighters, that normally ground wrestlers would develop naturally. Like how to listen and feel your opponents structure as you come in to strike and throw. Since leg shots are more of a ground game thing, I think you would have to create a new push hands exercise to accommodate that. You would then have a bridge between the stand up grappeling, and the ground game..

[Knifefighter]

I've done push-hands stuff with taiqichuan folks. Depends on who is doing it, but as you might expect they are not really equipped to deal with leg shots at all (not sure how 'free'style you are thinking) and they don't handle wrist control, russians, duck-unders, or arm drags done at full speed very well. The more restricted the context of the push-hands, the better they were (naturally enough).

I'm thinking less about leg takedowns and more along the lines of greco (pummelling, hand control, pushing and off-balancing) without being in the mode of compliant give and take that is seen in tuishou.

I think it will always resemble GR or Sumo, rather than the tuishou that Fu Pow is expecting. I think the reason he thinks that way is because he has only done push hands with other Taiji people who are playing the game.

[cjurakpt]

I like doing push hand a great deal - it definitely develops a very specific skill set in terms of being sensitive to yourself and opponent moving together, and it is very invigorating when done without tension

however, I will be the first to tell you that it is very much based on a "gentleman's agreement" - in other words, you aren't striking, you are trying to maintain contact, you may or may not be stepping, and you are staying at a certain range in order to enable the particular expression that you are looking for to occur

when you go full out with both people resisting, it looks a lot different and feels much different as well; and you actually can get tired doing it!

[unkokusai]

Since leg shots are more of a ground game thing, ..

How do you figure that?

[Black Jack II]

I think push hands is an excellent flow drill that offers a lot of creativity in application compared to other energy structures out there. I have more of a background in using Hubud-Lubud, Kadena de Mano, and some Palis-Palis drills but push hands is certainly interesting.

Only problem is when people think flow drills are fighting, which they are not, getting stuck doing push hands and not sparring and adding other situational attributes to your game is where the delusion comes in.

[Fu-Pow]

Only problem is when people think flow drills are fighting, which they are not, getting stuck doing push hands and not sparring and adding other situational attributes to your game is where the delusion comes in.

Great point.

[Knifefighter]

I think push hands is an excellent flow drill that offers a lot of creativity in application compared to other energy structures out there. I have more of a background in using Hubud-Lubud, Kadena de Mano, and some Palis-Palis drills but push hands is certainly interesting.

Only problem is when people think flow drills are fighting, which they are not, getting stuck doing push hands and not sparring and adding other situational attributes to your game is where the delusion comes in.

Pummelling is not fighting either. However, unlike push hands, it is a piece of fighting which makes it a more realistic way to train. Push hands, at least the tuishou form of it, is about as realistic as going through some Tango steps before you go for your throw.

[PangQuan]

I just recently started training Chen Taiji, I cant wait to start getting into the push hands to see what its all like for myself.

It always seemed similar to chi sau to me, except without the strikes and more on creating imbalance and uitlizing your opponents mistakes to make him fall.

How often would you need to train BJJ a week to learn the basics and start to develop a good understanding of the ground, also what would you guys think bout training taiji and bjj at the same time as new arts?

should i just hold off on the ground for now?

[IronFist]

Realistic? Maybe if you ever find yourself in that hugging position.

edit - no offence. I think Taiji is awesome. But it's not Muay Thai/BJJ.

[SevenStar]

How do you figure that?

I am betting he says that cuz it is primarily utilized by grapplers...

[SevenStar]

I think to a certian degree,push hands is a way to train certain sensitivity attributes for stand up fighters, that normally ground wrestlers would develop naturally. Like how to listen and feel your opponents structure as you come in to strike and throw. Since leg shots are more of a ground game thing, I think you would have to create a new push hands exercise to accommodate that. You would then have a bridge between the stand up grappeling, and the ground game..

I don't think that would be a bridge... more of a patch... like when tma guys became big on "tackle" defenses as a way of showing how they would deal with a double leg.

you are right about the sensitivity thing, but you have to ask yourself why you think grapplers develop that sensitivity naturally - what are they doing that the taiji guys are not?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

They develop it because of the nature of grappling..they are in close and connected to thier opponent. Strikers are more distant, and cannot develop that intimate connection.

For strikers who have throwing in their art, there becomes a need to learn to feel and be sensitive to the opponents structure similar to a grappler would....but they don't get tied up grappling, so push hands developed to give that sensitivity in a way that a stand up striker would need to help set up and execute his throws, but without having to become a full fledged grappler in the process.

Push hands also helps you learn to keep yourself covered against in comming strikes, and to develop good positioning in a stand up situation....which grappling does not as it's focus is on the ground. It also teaches one to use his contact with the opponent to disrupt and unbalance a stand up fighter so it makes it hard for him to strike you...again, another attribute that a ground specialist would not cover.

In other words, it is a more sport specific way to develop the needed sensitivity for standup strikers, who also throw. It is specifically designed to give the striker that sensitivity in his own environment.

[Christopher M]

Push hands, at least the tuishou form of it, is about as realistic as going through some Tango steps before you go for your throw.

I didn't realize you'd trained tuishou.

[Knifefighter]

For strikers who have throwing in their art, there becomes a need to learn to feel and be sensitive to the opponents structure similar to a grappler would....but they don't get tied up grappling,

If they were training thier throwing in a realistic manner, they would get tied up in grappling. Anyone who trains throws in a live manner will soon find out that there is no such thing as "not gettting tied up grappling."



which grappling does not as it's focus is on the ground. .

BJJ is really the only grappling style with a primary focus on the ground. The other grappling styles are slightly more slanted towards standing grappling.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Throws are suppose to be fast and furious...if you are getting tied up grappling, you are doing something very wrong.

[Knifefighter]

Throws are suppose to be fast and furious...if you are getting tied up grappling, you are doing something very wrong.

They may "supposed to be", but, more often than not, they end up getting "tied up grappling" when the opponent is resisting and halfway skilled.

[Ronin maximus]

If ya can't match their skill on your feet, then just grab 'em and hold on.

Basic primitive instinct.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

They may "supposed to be", but, more often than not, they end up getting "tied up grappling" when the opponent is resisting and halfway skilled.

Reply]
Which is why Push hands is important. It gives you the ability to read the opponents structure better, so you can better time your throw so that the opponent cannot resist due to having been unbalanced and uprooted just enough to make said resistance extremely difficult, if not impossible.

It is virtually impossible to launch counter measures and make an effective resistance if one has lost thier balance, or been led out of balance.

In addition, pushands helps teach one to retain thier own balance and structure when an opponent is trying to take them down as well. It really is an excellent practice for stand up fighters who throw, so long as you don't over emphasis it to the detriment of other things important.

[Water Dragon]

Pummelling is not fighting either. However, unlike push hands, it is a piece of fighting which makes it a more realistic way to train. Push hands, at least the tuishou form of it, is about as realistic as going through some Tango steps before you go for your throw.

Then you don't understand Tui Shou. It trains attributes, not techniques. My grip fighting in Judo is based more on Tui Shou than anything else. IT works very well; if you understand what it is you are training.

[Fu-Pow]

They may "supposed to be", but, more often than not, they end up getting "tied up grappling" when the opponent is resisting and halfway skilled.

Reply]
Which is why Push hands is important. It gives you the ability to read the opponents structure better, so you can better time your throw so that the opponent cannot resist due to having been unbalanced and uprooted just enough to make said resistance extremely difficult, if not impossible.

It is virtually impossible to launch counter measures and make an effective resistance if one has lost thier balance, or been led out of balance.

In addition, pushands helps teach one to retain thier own balance and structure when an opponent is trying to take them down as well. It really is an excellent practice for stand up fighters who throw, so long as you don't over emphasis it to the detriment of other things important.


****, you are on a roll!!!!

[Mas Judt]

Both my CMA & IMA training had solutions for double-leg tack downs, but i know what you mean Seven. Believe it or not THE BEST training I've ever seen on the single leg was from a North Carolina high school 'wrasslin' coach. Just insert some better mechanics and whoosh. Crazy stuff.

People need to drop the cultural bias and re-enactment stuff and look and things more globally.

Knifefighter is right. My bread and butter is throwing - only thing is you need to better than half way decent to avoid being blasted, you need to be good if your opponent is good.

After that, it looks like 'wrasslin.' Life's a b!tch, eh?

[Mas Judt]

Push hands can be a good tool, unfortunately most I see practicing it ARE tools.

[unkokusai]

Throws are suppose to be fast and furious...if you are getting tied up grappling, you are doing something very wrong.

Ai-ya, another theory master! :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Theory ehy? I don't see Cung Le gettn tied up when he tries to throw...he just wait's till the opportune moment and does it.

[unkokusai]

Yeah, there's where you expose your 'theory boy' identity. Your ignorance is standing out in bold colors.


Maybe the problem is with your understanding of the notion of 'tying up.'

[Knifefighter]

Theory ehy? I don't see Cung Le gettn tied up when he tries to throw...he just wait's till the opportune moment and does it.

LOL @ Le not tying up in grappling to set up his throws. Getting tied up grappling is how you set up throws.

[SevenStar]

Throws are suppose to be fast and furious...if you are getting tied up grappling, you are doing something very wrong.

in theory, that is correct. realistically, it is incorrect, unless you drastically outclass your opponent.

[SevenStar]

Which is why Push hands is important. It gives you the ability to read the opponents structure better, so you can better time your throw so that the opponent cannot resist due to having been unbalanced and uprooted just enough to make said resistance extremely difficult, if not impossible.

It is virtually impossible to launch counter measures and make an effective resistance if one has lost thier balance, or been led out of balance.

In addition, pushands helps teach one to retain thier own balance and structure when an opponent is trying to take them down as well. It really is an excellent practice for stand up fighters who throw, so long as you don't over emphasis it to the detriment of other things important.

so a good push hands guy should clean up in a judo tourney...

[shrub]

Note grabbing and hanging on clothings (as commonly used in Judo) is treated with great disdain in Tai Chi and is not allowed in push hand.

[Black Jack II]

Here is an example of getting tied up in a streetfight. Not saying that these two are the best fighters in the world but its a actual real example of getting caught in the clinch when all is chaotic.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1185762433/Tough_Fight_Between_Two_Big_Brawling_Bad_Asses

[Fu-Pow]

so a good push hands guy should clean up in a judo tourney...

If a Taiji guy entered a Judo tournament.....

FP

[Fu-Pow]

in theory, that is correct. realistically, it is incorrect, unless you drastically outclass your opponent.

Here's the technical difference. In Taiji you can get in close, uncomfortably close actually, and "tied up" but you don't get "twisted up." If you are twisted up you lose the "frame" or structure, you don't have any space left in which to work. This is one thing that push hands teaches you, how not to lose your frame or lose your space, even in close.

Alot of people think of push hands as the most rudimentary form of it....two guys touching hands at a distance and moving them in a circle. That's the very beginning.

A complete push hands set of exercises will include exercices that are much closer in...knee to knee, hip to hip, shoulder to shoulder. These are harder to do and maintain the frame and the space. Its easier to get twisted up and harder to let the joints spiral.

FP

[unkokusai]

right foot blue.....

[Merryprankster]

Gee Fu Pow, because as we know, grapplers don't spend YEARS of their lives working on what you call "frame" or "structure."

Cheeeeeee-rist.


Martial Artists are worse than high-maintenance women and avant garde literary wanna-bes.

"What we do is unique and special! We're different! We're better!"

Ugh.

Quick tip: It's all the same ****. If it weren't, I'd stare at icelandic glima and mongolian wrestling and sumo and go "wow, that looks SO bio-mechanically different from what I do."

Except I don't.

And if people didn't slap "idiot filters" onto their goggles, they wouldn't either.

[Fu-Pow]

Gee Fu Pow, because as we know, grapplers don't spend YEARS of their lives working on what you call "frame" or "structure."

Cheeeeeee-rist.


Martial Artists are worse than high-maintenance women and avant garde literary wanna-bes.

"What we do is unique and special! We're different! We're better!"

Ugh.

Quick tip: It's all the same ****. If it weren't, I'd stare at icelandic glima and mongolian wrestling and sumo and go "wow, that looks SO bio-mechanically different from what I do."

Except I don't.

And if people didn't slap "idiot filters" onto their goggles, they wouldn't either.

What an a$$. :rolleyes:

FP

[Knifefighter]

Fu Pow... you've been studying Tai Chi for how long now? About a year?

And you've done freestyle type grappling with other types of grapplers how many times? None?

Since you are a newbie and haven't gone out and mixed things up with other grapplers, you are speaking purely from a theoretical standpoint. Problem is, reality is different than theory.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow... you've been studying Tai Chi for how long now? About a year?

I've studied Taiji for about 10 years, not that its really germane.



And you've done freestyle type grappling with other types of grapplers how many times? None?

That's the same as me asking you how many Taiji guys you've mixed it up with? None?



Since you are a newbie and haven't gone out and mixed things up with other grapplers, you are speaking purely from a theoretical standpoint. Problem is, reality is different than theory.

Purely theoretical would be like only in my head. I do push hands every Saturday. So what I'm saying is not "purely theoretical", its largely empirical...that is hands on.

Like I said man, go find a good Taiji practitioner and ask for a demonstration of some of things that we do. You talking about Taiji is like me talking about Judo, we can only speculate based on the things we have seen and our own experience....but it doesn't take the place of doing it hands on.

FP

[Black Jack II]

Purely theoretical would be like only in my head. I do push hands every Saturday. So what I'm saying is not "purely theoretical", its largely empirical...that is hands on.

It's only largely empirical if it is pressure tested under a alive enviroment against other systems, in this case other standup grappling systems to see if you can make it work on a certain percentage scale.

Not saying there is not some empirical info in what you do just that you have not stated how it is largely empirical.

[Knifefighter]

IThat's the same as me asking you how many Taiji guys you've mixed it up with? None?

I've been involved in grappling and the martial arts for 30 years now. I've mixed things up with pretty much every style you can think of.

Your just doing push hands within your own group, so anything outside of that is theoretical.

I'm going to paraphrase what someone posted on another thread:

"A lot of people do things in what they call "sparring", particularly with others in their same group, doing the same things, with the same poor habits, poor skills, etc. This is the problem. You can't learn what are and are not good grappling habits by working with poorly skilled people. Go to a really good grappling gym, one that has produced high level competition grapplers, show them your "push hands", and ask them -- after all, they are experienced grapplers -- about what they think of it, about the strengths and weaknesses of it. Then ask them to do some freestyle grappling with you. They'll be glad to... then you will no longer be speaking from a more practical perspective."

[unkokusai]

Purely theoretical would be like only in my head. I do push hands every Saturday.

But with who?

[Fu-Pow]

I've been involved in grappling and the martial arts for 30 years now. I've mixed things up with pretty much every style you can think of.


You started this thread and asserted that THIS is what Taiji REALLY looks like. When people disagreed with that assertion you defended your position...but the fact remains, or correct me if I'm wrong here, that you have never sparred with, pushed hands with or ever encountered......any Taiji pracitioner. You have never practiced Taiji yourself....on what basis do you have to be the artibiter of what is "realistic Taiji" and what isn't?

It'd be like me posting on "realistic Judo" and then saying well I have 10 years experience in Taiji and Choy Lay Fut so that makes me an expert. It would be largely speculation...much like what you are doing now.

So my challenge to you is that if you want to make assertions about Taiji that you find a well known, well regarded practitioner and test some skills with them. It doesn't have to be a brawl but see how they would handle some of the things you would do in a typical match with some pressure to it.

Peace

FP

[MasterKiller]

You started this thread and asserted that THIS is what Taiji REALLY looks like. When people disagreed with that assertion you defended your position...but the fact remains, or correct me if I'm wrong here, that you have never sparred with, pushed hands with or ever encountered......any Taiji pracitioner. You have never practiced Taiji yourself....on what basis do you have to be the artibiter of what is "realistic Taiji" and what isn't?

It'd be like me posting on "realistic Judo" and then saying well I have 10 years experience in Taiji and Choy Lay Fut so that makes me an expert. It would be largely speculation...much like what you are doing now.

So my challenge to you is that if you want to make assertions about Taiji that you find a well known, well regarded practitioner and test some skills with them. It doesn't have to be a brawl but see how they would handle some of the things you would do in a typical match with some pressure to it.

Peace

FP

Isn't this pretty much the same thing you do in the groundfighting threads?

[Knifefighter]

You started this thread and asserted that THIS is what Taiji REALLY looks like.

No... I said "realistic".

As in what it looks like when two people are both resisting and trying at the same time. Big difference.




..but the fact remains, or correct me if I'm wrong here, that you have never sparred with, pushed hands with or ever encountered......any Taiji pracitioner.

You stand corrected.

[Water Dragon]

If a Taiji guy entered a Judo tournament.....

FP

Been there, done that. Even got the T-shirt.

[Merryprankster]

Sweet! I made fu-pow's ignore list!:D That's like going to a party and finding out that all the hot chicks there want to hump your brains out, while the fat stupid one thinks you're ugly.

Course, getting on fu-pow's ignore list isn't too hard. Just talk sense, and sure enough, you'll eventually get there.


"If a Taiji guy entered a Judo tournament....."

This sounds like the opening to a joke, you know, like a minister, a rabbi and a priest...

"so, a Taiji guy, a Judoka and a wrestler all enter a tournament...."

[PangQuan]

"so, a Taiji guy, a Judoka and a wrestler all enter a tournament...."

I'll be waiting on that punchline! ;)

[Merryprankster]

The punchline?

There really isn't one. It goes something like this:

... and they all found out that what they do is basically the same, and they could learn a lot from each other, maybe, if people stopped being "true believers" in their style being special and unique.

[Water Dragon]

Sweet! I made fu-pow's ignore list!:D That's like going to a party and finding out that all the hot chicks there want to hump your brains out, while the fat stupid one thinks you're ugly.



I get a kick out of how I have more Tai Chi experience than him (10+ years), actively compete in Judo, and he still somehow knows more than me about what Tuis Shou is and isn't compared to Randori.

[banditshaw]

Welcome to the club Merryprankster....wasn't too hard huh?:D

[Fu-Pow]

No... I said "realistic".

As in what it looks like when two people are both resisting

Ok then.....what it REALLY looks like when people are doing Taiji realistically. :rolleyes:

If both people are resisting it isn't Taiji. It betrays your ignorance of Taiji to use the term "resisting" and Taiji in the same sentence. RD quite eloquently pointed this out already.

If a Taiji master is "trying" he is not resisting. He is not besting an opponent because he can "resist" with more force.

Resisting=

-Being stuck, unable to change and be continuous
-Undermining structure
-Giving away information to your opponent
-Losing sensitivity



You stand corrected.

Who was this person(s) that you "tested hands" with that did Taiji? You don't have to give me a name but perhaps a style and the length of time practiced and the circumstances.

Gracias

FP

[unkokusai]

If both people are resisting it isn't Taiji.



...............oh bother, LARP-alert! :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

If both people are resisting it isn't Taiji.

This is theoretically true in Taiji, and an essential for tui shou.

This is also theoretically true in Judo, BJJ, and Boxing though, so what is the relevence of this statement?

[Mas Judt]

And the theory hits the pavement and gets a bloody nose....

Fu Pow, the perfect scenario only happens in two cases:

1.) Your opponent is slow, stupid & unsophisticated

2.) Your opponent is caught by surprise

I have known players, like Wai Lun Choi who could *f you up effortlessly, toying with all kinds of skilled guys, but there is a point, where even a highly skilled player such as himself will end up 'in competition'

Resisisting seems to be the wrong word here - resistance in fighting is another skilled opponent trying to do you in at the same time you seek to do them in. This is the monkeywrench in the machine that makes it, well it makes it a FIGHT. There is a conceptual and realistic difference here.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the point in Taiji is to avoid going force on force, but rather to be slippery and to redirect or neutralize the incoming force.

A good example was in a tug of war fight between me and my daughter the other nite. We were fighting over this big giant foam "Fun doodle" thing. At one point she was pulling on it really hard trying to pull me off the couch, and i just let go. Of course she fell on the floor.

I laughed (Because it was just ridiculously silly), and claimed that I had just kicked her ass with Tai Chi...because...well, I did. :p

[Fu-Pow]

And the theory hits the pavement and gets a bloody nose....

Fu Pow, the perfect scenario only happens in two cases:

1.) Your opponent is slow, stupid & unsophisticated

2.) Your opponent is caught by surprise


You don't always get the "perfect scenario" but the point of training is so that those "perfect scenarios" will present themselves more frequently. In order to do that you can't get all twisted up, you can't get stuck. You have to maintain position ,frame and space in order to get more of those opportunities.

I'm all for having a plan B if you meet someone who outclasses you ie building strength and endurance. However, your plan A shouldn't be the same thing as your plan B.



I have known players, like Wai Lun Choi who could *f you up effortlessly, toying with all kinds of skilled guys, but there is a point, where even a highly skilled player such as himself will end up 'in competition'

Resisisting seems to be the wrong word here - resistance in fighting is another skilled opponent trying to do you in at the same time you seek to do them in. This is the monkeywrench in the machine that makes it, well it makes it a FIGHT. There is a conceptual and realistic difference here.

Yes "resisting" is the wrong word.

[SevenStar]

You don't always get the "perfect scenario" but the point of training is so that those "perfect scenarios" will present themselves more frequently. In order to do that you can't get all twisted up, you can't get stuck. You have to maintain position ,frame and space in order to get more of those opportunities.

I'm all for having a plan B if you meet someone who outclasses you ie building strength and endurance. However, your plan A shouldn't be the same thing as your plan B.


Plan B makes Plan A pretty much automatic, no? If I spend hours a week training against guys who are making me resist because they are at my level or above - guys I HAVE to contest with because I cannot easily throw them, Doesn't that make plan A automatically fall into place? If you outclass the guy, you will dominate him with no effort. As has already been said, wrestling, judo and bjj all operate of this same thing that you are saying taiji does. Judo's basis is "maximum efficiency" - maximum result with minimum effort. Conceptually, this is great, but realistically it just doesn't always work that way.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Conceptually, this is great, but realistically it just doesn't always work that way.

Reply]
That is because your Qi is weak!!!



















**RD runs and hides** :p

[Knifefighter]

If both people are resisting it isn't Taiji.

Real grappling has resistance, it's the nature of real-life grappling (as compared to the theoretical exercises that you do). Watch any competitive grappling match - BJJ, Sumo, Sambo, wrestling, Shao Jiao (even competitive Tai Chi where neither person is restricted)- and you will see this resistance.

The people who expect it to be like you think it is are usually lost when it comes to actual applications in a live setting.


Who was this person(s) that you "tested hands" with that did Taiji? You don't have to give me a name but perhaps a style and the length of time practiced and the circumstances.

Over the years, I've mixed it up with a variety of Taiji people... an instructor who taught at a company I used to work for, people who came into schools I have trained at, instructors and students training in parks, friends, etc.

[SevenStar]

Here's the technical difference. In Taiji you can get in close, uncomfortably close actually, and "tied up" but you don't get "twisted up." If you are twisted up you lose the "frame" or structure, you don't have any space left in which to work. This is one thing that push hands teaches you, how not to lose your frame or lose your space, even in close.


you don't get twisted up because you are agreeing not to. judokas, bjj guys, wrestlers, etc WANT to tie you up. being tied up does not indicate a loss of structure and frame unless you are the one in the less advantageous position. How can I throw a person if I have lost structure? obviously, you can't. that alone shows that although I may be tied up, I still retain my structure.

[SevenStar]

Purely theoretical would be like only in my head. I do push hands every Saturday. So what I'm saying is not "purely theoretical", its largely empirical...that is hands on.


right, but you are pushing with OTHER TAIJI GUYS. people who are playing your same game. Go to a judo club and randori. Go to a bjj club and roll. right now you aren't mixing it up, you are just training with guys at your club.

[SevenStar]

Conceptually, this is great, but realistically it just doesn't always work that way.

Reply]
That is because your Qi is weak!!!


















**RD runs and hides** :p



What you don't know is that my qi is the reason your primary username doesn't work on the main forum, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[SevenStar]

Note grabbing and hanging on clothings (as commonly used in Judo) is treated with great disdain in Tai Chi and is not allowed in push hand.

that's fine. How do they feel about under and over hooking? how about grabbing the limb instead of clothing? they have to grab or hook something...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What you don't know is that my qi is the reason your primary username doesn't work on the main forum, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Reply]
DO'H!!!! :)

[Black Jack II]

You know who would be great for this conversation, the cat from Northern Lights Tai Chi Academy who used to post on here, the one who was a tai chi mma based school in Canada.

For what its worth I found this Chen style tai chi grappling defense clip on youtube. All I have to say is wtf...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yLvyocnKQ

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You mean shooter? I think he's on Emptyflower.

[PangQuan]

I've just started my Taiji training so I dont have anything to contribute at this point.

Though my Sifu has many articles he has written regarding martial arts.

Here is one one push hands I found to be very interesting.

Note: His teachings are all greatly influenced by I-Chuan training.

http://i-chuan.net/pages/Training05/Fong_pushhands.pdf

Mind you this appears to be regarding only specific elements of why we do push hands.

[SevenStar]

that is a pretty good article.

[Knifefighter]

For what its worth I found this Chen style tai chi grappling defense clip on youtube. All I have to say is wtf...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yLvyocnKQ

LOL!

WTF is right... Head dive leg takedowns with no set up to single leg attempts with the head on the outside of the leg;

Nothing like demonstrating takedown defenses against a guy who is completely clueless on how to do takedowns.

The first knife defense was pretty bad, but he's on the right track with the other ones with the two-on-one control... add some decent ground work into the finishes and it wouldn't be bad.

[unkokusai]

For what its worth I found this Chen style tai chi grappling defense clip on youtube. All I have to say is wtf...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yLvyocnKQ

Why do so many people seem to think that showing 'counters' against *ahem* 'takedowns' by people who seem determined most of all to throw themselves on the ground anyway is going to lend credibility?


Ai-ya~ :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Here's a couple vids that are very similar to the Tui Shou I learned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHQv6fLpIoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLaSWJgsERk

Here's two guy's playing around, but look at the guy in blue in round 1. I tend to stick and follow in a similar manner, but not exactly the same thing. This has worked for me in everything from SC, to Boxing, to Muay Thai, to Judo. In JUDO, I use this in grip fighting. I switch between a standard and over the back grip. When someone gets a superior grip on me, I just let go of my frip and come back in with a better grip based on where his hand is threatening me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQtvUdqyp7Y

Here's an example. We're doing Randori, and I have a standard grip, right hand on the lapel, my left hand defending his right hand attack. He gets my left sleeve with his right hand and pulls down. Maybe he wants O Soto, I dunno. I will immediately release my left hand, swim up the inside and grab his gi at his elbow joint from the inside and pull DOWN, because he's already pulling down. I'm giving him what he wants, just not in the way he expects it. If I get it, I 'finish the circle' with my right hand and go for O Soto, my Tokui Waza.

When I randori, I wait. As soon as he attacks I reposition my grip to pull in the direction he's going. Usually I use a soft steady pull and try to stretch him out, off balance, so I can enter. Usually,he attacks and I reposition, he takes another grip and I reposition, and so on. sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. A lot of times I have to muscle out because he almost got me. Other times I'll go Bonzai, Shuai Chiao style, if I think I see an easy attack. But my STRATEGY comes from the Tui Shou, I randori different than the other Judo guys. Not better at worse, just a little different. I feel what their doing a little differently, I think it's in how I look at things. I credit this to the Tui Shou I learned.

I'm thinking at this point maybe Fu Pow and Royal Dragon are talking about a whole nuther animal than I am.

[Water Dragon]

I like this vid too. This guy's pretty good at push hands from my view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxO5mNHGGOE

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQtvUdqyp7Y

Here's an example. We're doing Randori, and I have a standard grip, right hand on the lapel, my left hand defending his right hand attack.

LOL... might want to check that link.

[Black Jack II]

I like this vid too. This guy's pretty good at push hands from my view

Not trying to come across like a duck who has a tampon lodged in his anus but was that serious or am I missing the sarcasm??

Honest injun...maybe I gave to much blood at the hospital today or maybe the ear hair I found last night has screwed up my comprehension for net communication.

[Water Dragon]

Oh Sh!T! I just looked at that vid again.

Here's the vid I MEANT to post, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxO5mNHGGOE

[Knifefighter]

I like this vid too. This guy's pretty good at push hands from my view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxO5mNHGGOE

That is a perfect example of martial arts B.S.

The "opponent" is not only being compliant, he is actaully helping the "grandmaster" to throw him.


Here's a couple vids that are very similar to the Tui Shou I learned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHQv6fLpIoI

And that one is even worse. The guy is jumping up as he is "pushed".

Real grappling is nothing like those two clips. Compliance in a demo is one thing... helping yourself to be thrown is just as bad as the no touch chi knockout people. No wonder people are clueless if that is the kind of stuff they are practicing.


Oh Sh!T! I just looked at that vid again.
Here's the vid I MEANT to post, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxO5mNHGGOE

No that's not it either. Show us the one of you doing randori. I'd like to see you doing something that is even remotely similar to what the above two clips were showing.

[Christopher M]

Real grappling is nothing like those two clips.

Real bullfighting is nothing like those two clips either. Same with real firefighting. Oh, and real basket-weaving.

Wait a second, why are we listing things which are nothing like those clips? Seems like a waste of time.

[Water Dragon]

Jeez Dale, you might wanna try that hooked on Phonics program. I never said it was fighting. I even stated push hands was NOT fighting multiple ties on this thread. How much clearer can I get then that?

Ever lose your balance? What do you do to stop from falling? You hop. He's not helping the guy throw him. He's jumping so he doesn't fall down.

Please don't say, "it's not fighting" after I said that multiple times already. School starts in a couple weeks, mebbe you could pick up a reading comprehension class.

[Water Dragon]

Also, Tui Shou IS a compliant exercise. That's the way it works Buddy. Do you want to paraphraseanything else I've been saying for years? Wanna go for the push hands is not fighting again thing? I agree with you, Bro, you're just totally missing the point.

[Black Jack II]

Ever lose your balance? What do you do to stop from falling?

Land on a midget.

[Knifefighter]

Also, Tui Shou IS a compliant exercise.

Compliant drills are a good way to learn new techniques, do warm-ups and cool-downs, or just do easy training sessions.

The problem with using compliant exercises to demonstrate someone’s ability is that there is no way to tell their skill level based on this. You could teach a 12-year-old girl to throw a grown man around like that if her partner was helping her and jumping into the air like the guys were doing on those clips. The only way to show skills that translate to fighting is to show them in sparring or fighting. Otherwise, you are just demonstrating dancing ability.

As far as push hands, not only is it not fighting, much of it is not even representative of what happens during fighting or grappling. Because push hands drills go through many movements that not specific to fighting or grappling, there will be a very low transfer of skills to fighting or grappling (a basic tenant of motor skills learning and athletic performance is specificity of training). Contrast this to flow drills done in BJJ, takedown drills in wrestling or throwing practice in Judo. All the movements and positions are the exact same movements and positions that happen in the fighting or grappling. You’re not going to see a “swing dance move” in any of these disciplines like was shown in the clip above because all the drill movements are specific to fighting or grappling.



Ever lose your balance? What do you do to stop from falling? You hop. He's not helping the guy throw him. He's jumping so he doesn't fall down.

LOL... that is ludicrous.

People who lose their balance do not hop and jump into the air. Watch any kind of grappling match with two resisting opponents (or go back and watch the original clip that I posted). You will see people losing their balance and getting thrown, but you will not see any hopping and jumping into the air.



Please don't say, "it's not fighting" after I said that multiple times already.

So, are you going to show the clip of you doing randori to demonstrate the applicability of push hands in a more realistic situation?

[Black Jack II]

I like this format, its a push hands competition done in a ring enviroment, Yiquan vrs Japenese Taikiken.

Looks more forcefull, kinda reminds me of some dumog. BTW the music will get your grove on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8HWoSoS6U&mode=related&search=

[Knifefighter]

I like this format, its a push hands competition done in a ring enviroment, Yiquan vrs Japenese Taikiken.

Looks more forcefull, kinda reminds me of some dumog. BTW the music will get your grove on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8HWoSoS6U&mode=related&search=

And guess what? Lots of pushing and comprominsing of balance, but no hopping and jumping into the air.

[Water Dragon]

So, are you going to show the clip of you doing randori to demonstrate the applicability of push hands in a more realistic situation?

Yeah Bro, I'm gonna hop on that just as soon as you Fed Ex me a video camera. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Here's an example. We're doing Randori, and I have a standard grip, right hand on the lapel, my left hand defending his right hand attack. He gets my left sleeve with his right hand and pulls down. Maybe he wants O Soto, I dunno. I will immediately release my left hand, swim up the inside and grab his gi at his elbow joint from the inside and pull DOWN, because he's already pulling down. I'm giving him what he wants, just not in the way he expects it. If I get it, I 'finish the circle' with my right hand and go for O Soto, my Tokui Waza.

Umm.... what happend to that?

You know... the original clip of you doing randori to show how you are using Taiji for grip fighting.

[Black Jack II]

I don't think he ever said he taped it.

[Knifefighter]

I don't think he ever said he taped it.

Yeah... he even said he messed up and posted the wrong clip.

Then he re-posted one of the clips he had already posted before.

[Water Dragon]

We've already covered that I have terrible vid-post-fu. I think I need to train with Master Killer.

[Knifefighter]

We've already covered that I have terrible vid-post-fu. I think I need to train with Master Killer.

So there was no video in the first place?

Or you just don't know how to post it?

[Water Dragon]

So there was no video in the first place?

Or you just don't know how to post it?

No, I do not have a video of myself. I never said I did. I was trying to give an example of the kinds of things I do in Judo that come from my Tai Chi days. I said the one guy in the video who was goofing off with the JKD guy was sticking in a similar way to what i do.

And to avoid future confusion, let's clarify a couple terms while we're at it:

do not= don't have in existance
similar= somewhat like but not exactly the same as
goofing off=playing around, not actually sparring or fighting

[Edmund]

LOL. You completely gave the impression that you were giving a video of yourself.
I can understand the confusion that KF had.

You posted 3 clips and then said: Here's an example. I am doing randori and doing osoto gari with an inside sleeve grip.

Then the link has no osoto-gari.





No, I do not have a video of myself. I never said I did. I was trying to give an example of the kinds of things I do in Judo that come from my Tai Chi days. I said the one guy in the video who was goofing off with the JKD guy was sticking in a similar way to what i do.

And to avoid future confusion, let's clarify a couple terms while we're at it:

do not= don't have in existance
similar= somewhat like but not exactly the same as
goofing off=playing around, not actually sparring or fighting

[Water Dragon]

My bad then. I'm out on injury right now, but I'm hoping to compete in Dallas this December. If anyone ever tapes one of my matches, I'd be more than happy to share it with everyone. I've talked a lot of shlt over the years. People deserve a chance to rip on me too, lol.

[scholar]

Taijiquan is a diverse art, with a lot of variation between styles. Most schools nowadays are all pretty wushu, no sparring or hitting the ground. Some styles still focus on wrestling and throws as an adjunct to sparring, though finding them is looking for a needle in a haystack.

This was a 2002 demo in Hong Kong, the guys are from a Singapore Wu style school;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWezZzEODw

[MasterKiller]

We've already covered that I have terrible vid-post-fu. I think I need to train with Master Killer.

20 minute horse stance for you!

[Toby]

That is a perfect example of martial arts B.S.

The "opponent" is not only being compliant, he is actaully helping the "grandmaster" to throw him.

And that one is even worse. The guy is jumping up as he is "pushed".

Real grappling is nothing like those two clips. Compliance in a demo is one thing... helping yourself to be thrown is just as bad as the no touch chi knockout people. No wonder people are clueless if that is the kind of stuff they are practicing.I watched all the vids and yeah, seems like there's a lot of face saving going on in some of them. Having said that, I've been on the receiving end (and watched others) of things that probably looked pretty weird to bystanders. My teacher will sometimes do a thing where he'll use others' reactions against them in conjunction with quickly changing the direction of his actions. E.g. if he grabs you around the shoulders/neck and pulls sharply the body's natural reaction is to resist and pull away. If he then changes it super quickly and pushes out while your reaction is still to pull away, you can get thrown pretty well. No compliance going on.

[Knifefighter]

Taijiquan is a diverse art, with a lot of variation between styles. Most schools nowadays are all pretty wushu, no sparring or hitting the ground. Some styles still focus on wrestling and throws as an adjunct to sparring, though finding them is looking for a needle in a haystack.

This was a 2002 demo in Hong Kong, the guys are from a Singapore Wu style school;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWezZzEODw

That is not wrestling. That is compliant dancing.

[scholar]

I don't know many dancers hit the floor like that... :rolleyes:


Inference time: it isn't fighting, it is training. They are at the same level, and know what each other can take. They aren't trying to hurt each other, they're conditioning to hit the floor without injury on the one hand, and practicing how to put someone on the floor on the other. They aren't sparring, they aren't doing finishing scenarios (if "compliant dancing" means allowing your demo partner to stand back up), they aren't doing locks and breaks. They are doing offsets into throws from a position of contact. Pushing hands.

[Knifefighter]

I don't know many dancers hit the floor like that... :rolleyes:


Inference time: it isn't fighting, it is training. They are at the same level, and know what each other can take. They aren't trying to hurt each other, they're conditioning to hit the floor without injury on the one hand, and practicing how to put someone on the floor on the other. They aren't sparring, they aren't doing finishing scenarios (if "compliant dancing" means allowing your demo partner to stand back up), they aren't doing locks and breaks. They are doing offsets into throws from a position of contact. Pushing hands.

I'm not referring to the actual throws when I say "compliant dancing". I am talking about the "push hands" dancing beforehand. Setups and movements against opponents in live settings look nothing like that.

[TenTigers]

push hands, chi-sao,hubud, etc are designed to teach touch sensitivity and reaction. All the time spent developing the skill is for ONE SPLIT SECOND IN TIME.
If I want to land a strike, and it meets opposition, I can either re-group, or flow with or around it. If I want to throw,I need to feel your balance point, and find the timing and positioning to exploit it.
These are simply drills to help achieve this end. A means to an end.Not the end itself.
You honestly need to have a basic understanding of this before you can give an opinion. That's like me looking at the space shuttle and criticizing its design. WTF do I know about aerospace engineering?

[SevenStar]

push hands, chi-sao,hubud, etc are designed to teach touch sensitivity and reaction. All the time spent developing the skill is for ONE SPLIT SECOND IN TIME.
If I want to land a strike, and it meets opposition, I can either re-group, or flow with or around it. If I want to throw,I need to feel your balance point, and find the timing and positioning to exploit it.
These are simply drills to help achieve this end. A means to an end.Not the end itself.
You honestly need to have a basic understanding of this before you can give an opinion. That's like me looking at the space shuttle and criticizing its design. WTF do I know about aerospace engineering?

while that is true, as a bjj black belt, he does have SOME notion of how to set up a throw/takedown, how to feel a person's center, etc. Not all methods are the same, but you can point out enough similarities, when said similarities exist, much like the taiji example he posted the he liked.

[TenTigers]

yes, I agree. But let's remember, it's only a drill. It's kinda like watching Tyson skip rope and thinking,"Yeah, what's he gonna do, skip at me?"

[Black Jack II]

Flow drills do have a place, its just another tool to work on action and reaction attributes. The best one's are not set, so the players can break out of one drill and enter right into another, so it becomes freeform like shadow boxing, it lets you work your creative side.

The only problem is when people get flow drill crazy or they stary thinking its actually fighting.

Personally I like push hands and would like to explore some more in the future.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Personally I like push hands and would like to explore some more in the future.

Reply]
I should hook you up with Troy, he's ridiculously good at that stuff.

[PangQuan]

I like to think of push hand type exersizes near the same process as learning to walk.

at first you crawl and are not very coordinated. eventually, you learn to pull yourself into a standing position, yet still you have no coordination or balance. your muscles are not developed for the action. the 'feeling' of standing is still alien. eventually you will take your first step, then you will fall. you will have a guide many times to help you take more steps than you can actually do by yourself.

you may take 10 steps when, alone, you could have only taken 1 or 2. guidance by one who is very familiar with walking helps you learn that feeling in advance to what you can do alone. this will help you to understand what your faults are, what your weaknesses and strengths are. its a process done in almost any type of training endeavor.

with a good partner and teacher you can have a great guide to lead you and help you feel things you would othewise be unable to experience.

push hand is NOT fighting. push hands is an exersize that has VERY specific ELEMENTS of fighting. but hardly all elements of fighting are involved.

it is not going to look like fighting, its not suppose to look like fighting. when a taiji practitioner fights, then it will look like fighting. Not when he is doing push hands.

its like when you step on a tack or a nail, or touch a hot stove. that moment of explosive action without thought, the reaction of the body at maximum capacity for survival. we try to recreate this feeling. when you are doing push hands to be able to recreate the element the very moment your opening presents itself...this is one element of the training we are trying to achieve.

to have someone there to guide you and to help you feel this is part of the reason we do push hands.

although I am lower than a novice, take every thing i say with the knowledge that i am a beginner in the world of taiji, though many concepts i do understand, the actual physical side of the coin i have yet to fully experience.

[SevenStar]

Taijiquan is a diverse art, with a lot of variation between styles. Most schools nowadays are all pretty wushu, no sparring or hitting the ground. Some styles still focus on wrestling and throws as an adjunct to sparring, though finding them is looking for a needle in a haystack.

This was a 2002 demo in Hong Kong, the guys are from a Singapore Wu style school;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWezZzEODw

just watched the vid... I see what knife is talking about. Good throws - sukui nage, harai goshi, o soto gari... But you aren't gonna set up those throws that way. Look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XA3PoyJ4BI&mode=related&search=

this is what throw set ups - even split second throws - tend to look like when you have a resisting opponent.

[SevenStar]

yes, I agree. But let's remember, it's only a drill. It's kinda like watching Tyson skip rope and thinking,"Yeah, what's he gonna do, skip at me?"

I agree it's just a drill - but if you are drilling everything from the setup to the throw, why not actually do the proper setup? just IMO, I would keep push hands seperate from free wrestling. That clip looks like it is combining the two. sticking with your tyson example, he doesn't skip rope while he's sparring...

[PangQuan]

I would keep push hands seperate from free wrestling.

I think this is a very good point.

[Black Jack II]

I should hook you up with Troy

Is that the guy who teaches tai chi in the Aurora Park district?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One of, there are two. The other guy is just a health guru.

Troy was the primary owner on the school we had on RT 59...which now has some Bejing affiliated Wusu guys in our old spot.

[Knifefighter]

push hands, chi-sao,hubud, etc are designed to teach touch sensitivity and reaction. All the time spent developing the skill is for ONE SPLIT SECOND IN TIME.
If I want to land a strike, and it meets opposition, I can either re-group, or flow with or around it. If I want to throw,I need to feel your balance point, and find the timing and positioning to exploit it.
These are simply drills to help achieve this end. A means to an end.Not the end itself.
You honestly need to have a basic understanding of this before you can give an opinion. That's like me looking at the space shuttle and criticizing its design. WTF do I know about aerospace engineering?

"Sensitivity drills" is the buzz phrase for practicing techniques out of context. The problem is, when you practice things out of context, they have much less applicability than when you practice them in context. Sensitivity is developed by doing the actual activity, in the same context and with the same movements done when going live. Wrestlers develop sensitity from wrestling; judokas develop sensitivity from doing throws and fighting for grips; BJJ practitioners develop sensitivity from rolling.

Push hands, chi sao, and, to a lesser extent, hubud are all artificial constructs. The movements done during these exercises are not the same ones that are done in a live setting. Watch judokas, wrestlers, BJJ guys, boxers, and MT fighters. All of their drills mimick the same movements done when going live against resisting opponents.

[Water Dragon]

just IMO, I would keep push hands seperate from free wrestling.

I agree with this 100 %. I was always taught that in push hands, you need to cooperate and 'go with it', in order to develop the correct responce. Once things like winning, ego, trying to do a technique come into play, it's not push hands anymore. That doesn't make randori or sparring any less essential, it just makes them something different than push hands.

[TenTigers]

do you not understand that these are simply tools? They are not the sole method of training, but only one slice of the pie, used to develop one attribute that is used in their overall fighting skills.
I think because modern day granola tai-chi schools place such an emphasis, and that they take up the limelight, that you believe that this is the method that people who do real Tai-Chi use.

[TenTigers]

"I agree it's just a drill - but if you are drilling everything from the setup to the throw, why not actually do the proper setup? just IMO, I would keep push hands seperate from free wrestling"



keeping push hands separate from free wrestling is sensible to western wrestlers. The set ups are different. Chinese wrestlers don't slap hands away and go for the grab, they try to join the person's arms in order to control them and lead them into the throw, or lock. Different strategies call for different traiining methodologies.

[Knifefighter]

I agree with this 100 %. I was always taught that in push hands, you need to cooperate and 'go with it', in order to develop the correct responce. Once things like winning, ego, trying to do a technique come into play, it's not push hands anymore. That doesn't make randori or sparring any less essential, it just makes them something different than push hands.

It's not the cooperation that makes it bad... it's the unrealistic positioning and energy. It's hard to learn to develop the correct response when the partner gives you the wrong positioning and energy.

[Water Dragon]

I really wish I could find a way to say what I'm trying to. I think I give up for a while. All I can really say is I have found it valuable. Maybe it's because it's the first and longest art I've trained, but no matter what else I do, my defense is based on what I learned in Tui Shou, and it's alwyas worked for me.

[cjurakpt]

my friend Sifu Mike Pekor competing and winning the 2007 USCKF 200 lbs + freestyle push hands championship match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardLHzFqtRA

[Knifefighter]

my friend Sifu Mike Pekor competing and winning the 2007 USCKF 200 lbs + freestyle push hands championship match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardLHzFqtRA

Yep... that's exactly what push hands looks like when both people are resisting.

I can already hear the theoretical non-fighters who have only ever done compliant exercises saying, "That's not real push hands" and "They are at low skill levels."

[5Animals1Path]

Yep... that's exactly what push hands looks like when both people are resisting.

I can already hear the theoretical non-fighters who have only ever done compliant exercises saying, "That's not real push hands" and "They are at low skill levels."

Whether or not they're at "high" levels, that's my favorite kind of push hands. Two people at relatively equal levels, which forces you to really feel it out to take his balance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yang Lu-Chan is probably rolling around in his grave.