How do you realistically defend against a Dog?

[diego]

Every summer two cats go missing a day in my neighbourhood from coyotes, that come down to the suburbs from the mountains. Today while walking to the store I saw a full grown coyote. I walked up behind it hoping it would get frightened and run for the hills, but the little ******* turned around and stepped to me. As it came in it caught me off gaurd so i could only do a light blend of a rear muay thai round kick and an inside crescent kick...I only clipped his beak with the top of my shoe, which is the crescent kick, but I wiped through his face using the slashing mechanics of a thai kick...I busted my knuckles on my right hand so all I do for the last month is kick the bag for like two hours a day, so it was a natural reaction technique...no real power...just executed to create distance, which it did perfectly.

So, the beak shot shook him up good, and he wouldn't charge after that...I shouted at him a bit, and he ran up the alley, but kept stopping to stand his ground, so I grabbed a chunk of concrete sitting in a pile in a nearby yard and chucked it at him, missing by a foot...the bugger chased the rock, then I gave him one more shout to step off, then I turned and walked, and the he ran away...conniving bugger that wily cat is...sucker just couldn't not stop holding his ground...I felt compassioniatte for his circumstance being hungry, but I love cats more than dogs, so I was willing to kill the coyote with my heel if I had to.

My question is...say i missed him with the right inside crescent kick, and then he darted in and lockjawed my support ankle...how best do I get him off me, like what are the details for gouging eyes, ripping nostrils, and manhandling eardrums etc?.

this is a serious threa...the coyote I could have rocked with my feet...but a wolf or a maddog german shepard...I'd be scared!.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Offer him your left hand, and as he tries to take it pull back, and with your right hand plow down along the side of his head so your arm checks his mouth preventing a bite. Reach in and grab his paw. Then stand up as fast as you can flipping him in circles in the air.

[diego]

Offer him your left hand, and as he tries to take it pull back, and with your right hand plow down along the side of his head so your arm checks his mouth preventing a bite. Reach in and grab his paw. Then stand up as fast as you can flipping him in circles in the air.
are you serious? :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If he does bite your hand, hook your fingers down under his toung to the floor of his mouth and ram down and in as hard as you can. It will force his head to his chest and relive the bitting pressure at the same time. You will sustain some injury, but if you follow by mounting from the rear and pulling his jaw bone into his neck as hard as you can, he will be forced to release his grip. You can choke him out BJJ style with relative ease at this point if you like, same as you would a person.

From there, you can also pin him with a half or full nelson and just lay on him till he tires too much to fight.

I used to full on spar Theresa's Shepard. He was vicious and refused to loose. I got bit a couple times, but eventually figured out that dogs are easy to controll in a fight. Thier reflexes are not faster than yours if you have any martial skill at all.

Your best bet (seriously) is to unleash some BJJ on them.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

are you serious?

Reply]
D@mmm Straight!! :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you do as I say, he cannot turn his head towards you to bite. He's on a bad angle because you just got superior position on him.

[diego]

are you serious?

Reply]
D@mmm Straight!! :D
but the flipping in circles...won't he just land, get up and attack?

what if he catches my support ankle after a missed kick...how do I reach down and remove his teeth from my shoe?....besides taking my shoe off:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You should not be fighting a dog with stand up, you need to think Shui Jiao. Get in close and clinch him then go for the throw.

If you use the throw I explained above you will most likely sprain his left leg enough to make him think twice about engaging you a second time. If he's dumb enough to try again, next time step in and behind so you end up laying on top of his back and then choke him out.

Also, Dogs do not land on thier feet like cats If you can enter like I explained you can feed into all sorts of pile driving throws and take downs that will put him on his side or back and will allow you to gain top controll.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but the flipping in circles...won't he just land, get up and attack?

Reply]
If you are lucky, yes. To prolong the practice of dog sparring you have to take care to be gentile on the throw so as not to sprain his leg or he will try to limp away scared rather than stay and train with you.

If you wish to prolong the practice, you have to go gentile and fool the Dog into thinking he has an actual chance of winning, otherwise he will back down and run away.

Remember, your arm is much stronger than his leg, so it will be easy to hurt him as I described, so be careful not to hurt him or you will not have a wild animal to practice with anymore.

[diego]

You should not be fighting a dog with stand up, you need to think Shui Jiao. Get in close and clinch him.

If you use the throw I explained above you will most likely sprain his left leg enough to make him think twice about engaging you a second time. If he's dumb enough to try again, next time step in and behind so you end up laying on top of his back and then choke him out.

Also, Dogs do not land on thier feet like cats, you can enter like I explained you can feed into all sorts of pile driving throws and take downs that will allow you to gain top controll.

interesting...see I'm like 6 foot 5 or 4 or something, so I'm all about kicks to keep an opponnent at bay, unless he plays basketball:)..I like the whole choke him out thing, but what about when he lock jaws your ankle...you'd be in a lot of pain to do any types of bend down, pick him up and anal gouge him...hm, but plugs would work to, i remember someone saying!!? :mad:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Don't offer him your ankle, offer him your left hand. He's a dog and will go towards the most easy biteable target. Since your intent is concealed, you are basically setting him up for your entry, and also the follow through to the throw or whatever type of ground controll you please.

There are other ways too, just watch the Crock hunter and see how he takes animals down. The same concepts can be used with the dog so long as you enter like I said to check his ability to bite right away, by gaining superior position on him. Once you have a good side position on him, he cannot hurt you becasue your arm is preventing him from turning his head to bite.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

pick him up and anal gouge him..

Reply]
No, too risky as you would have to remove your controlling hand form the side of his head. That will free him up and give him the room he needs to turn and bite...not to mention it's just plain disgusting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you have some practice, you can also do this and then shoot your left hand in and under his jaw, then back up to grab the top thus pinning his mouth shut. Dogs are very strong with clamping their jaws shut, but weak when it comes to opening them.

[Chosen-frozen]

Dude, if they`re that common a threat in your area buy a can of pepper spray.These little basids carry disease, and if they`re comming into town and aren`t afraid of pepole they could very well be rabid. You don`t want to engage them up close period.

[TenTigers]

I fight with my dog alla time and he's big-Flatcoat retriever-part retriever,part Newfie. I grab him by the cheek/neck area and slam him down to the ground. You can really get your hands into this area. You just pull his head down-where the head goes, the body follows, and dogs think with their heads/mouths.
But he's smart. I used to fake him, and now he knows my tricks. I try to lure him with one hand, and he immediately looks for the other. fkn dog's smarter than me.

[viper]

One ive been taught is that if a dog jumps towards the throat is to try an either step grab grab one leg or if u can an avoid the mouth grab both and push them outwards and the shoulder blades pop back into the chest cavity and puncture the lungs an heart. Also im not sure but run or grab its back legs they cant turn on them selves to good esp if u move round. but id advise distance like a big stik.

[John Takeshi]

Get a bigger dog.

[Oso]

with a 12 guage?

if you don't mind sacrificing one arm dogs will generally go for the first object closest to them and bite it. when they do that, circle around the back of the neck with the other hand and bend the head back till they let go or it breaks.


but, seriously, get the shotgun and be done with the pest once and for all.

[Water Dragon]

get an NBC stick

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Get a what?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What? I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Shaolin Wookie]

nigga

be

cool

[STICK]

*SMACK*

****, RD, you're whiter than I am.:D

[jdhowland]

My sihing Ross Lai once told me something about the Tibetan style kap cheui with a dropping horse being useful against wild dogs in Tibet and China. I'm not sure I could time the strike with the dog's leap. It might work; my mother's great dane was killed by a clip to the snout by a harried moose. (Not a kap cheui though; horses do good kap cheui but moose do dan geuk.) We have wolves and coyotes here, too. No big deal; I get as close as I can. But a feral dog would worry me more than an Alaska brown bear, and a pack would have presented a real nightmare to a trade caravan. I wonder if Wong Yan Lum ever dealt with them? As a bit of encouragement, I'm told that during the bygone and very illegal entertainments in which men fought pit bulls for money, the men usually won.

[Black Jack II]

So much horrible info in this thread about dog defense.

Sparring with your dog is not even on the same planet as getting attacked by a large dog or god forbid a working breed with a serious hardon for you, dogs don't spar, he was playing. Get your hands on a weapon, a knife, rake, chair, anything you can, if you live in a area where dog attacks or hybrid attacks are common carry a breaking stick with you, a blade, some mace.

As for the physical, trying to codify any fancy technique is bull**** on the empty hand front, dogs are chaos incarnet, and your panic attack is going to be HUGE, so lets get real.

I have been around working breeds for a long time, including some Schutzhund.

[Water Dragon]

http://www.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/american-bulldog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/american-bulldog-0146.jpg
These work pretty good for defense against Coyotes too

[ammocase]

As humans we really dont have phsyical weapons, only thing we can rely on is our highly developed brains. Reach for a stick or something, jesus! My neice was attacked by two dogs an they bit her arm an did some damage. I would imagine low roundhouse kicks a front kicks would be best, just be careful they dont bite an clinch down on your ankle or calf, your main focal point is the mouth, thats the only weapon these creatures have.

[xcakid]

Well here in TX. Coyotes are considered varmints therefore it legal to hunt them and shoot them. Same with wild pig/boars and smaller varmints. .223 caliber rifle is great for downing these *******s.

As for wolf, well I can tell you for a fact they don't go down easy using a .40 pistol but it sure slows them down for the second shot. :D

As already suggested: Get a big stick. Walking stick or cane would be nice when you out and about. Pepper spray and stun guns work. Or a bigger dog. Also carry around a pocket knife. Dogs tend to back off if there is a big gash on there side.

[TenTigers]

There is a story about Wong Fei-Hung killing a trained attack dog with a technique from Fu-Hok...he raises one hand above and when the dog went for it, he used his kiu-sao and grabbed its throat and snap kicked it in da bawlz.
One, I always thought that was the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and
Two, Wong Fei-Hung, one of the most famous Martial Artists in Chinese History (ok, folk legend) and figurehead of our glorious Hung-Ga...is famous for kicking a dog in da bawlz? wtf?
uh..nope..nope...don't like it one bit. nosiree...:rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

your main focal point is the mouth, thats the only weapon these creatures have.

To a extent that is true, but a dog has a tad more when viewed in whole, one is force of motion in its attack, I have seen a number of lvery arge guys get slammed to the grass by a full charging 90lb dog.


Dogs tend to back off if there is a big gash on there side.

Depends on the dog. Just like people some are more game or crazy for the fight then others.

[Yum Cha]

Trained attack dogs will often be taught to attack the groin, not "offered" targets.

Anybody see Bill Murry in "Where the Buffalo Roam?" NIXON!!

Anyway, when I was a little kiddie, a hard man friend of the family took a few of us to the junkyard (pretty cool place for kids, eh) to get some pickup parts. A big German shepard guard dog came out of nowhere on the charge. He bent down and put out his arm, the shepard took his forearm, he pulled in and up, putting his other forearm behind the dogs neck, pushed top out, tapping the upper jaw, pulled bottom in and snapped the dogs neck clean and quick, than picked up the carcass, carried it to the office, threw it at the owner and nearly did the same to him, shouting about the kids he had with him.

Teeth never made it through the denim jacket.

Likewise, as kids, when we came upon dogs, we picked up rocks - the dogs had an instinctive kind of fear of flying objects that hit and hurt. Just bending down and faking it was often enough - but we're talking about mean neighbourhood dogs, not attack dogs, or cornered dogs.

Personally, gimme a shovel. Doubles to bury it too...

[ccsraj]

If the dog is a trained personal protection or police dog and it is a good specimen: You have no chance. All of this nonsense about kicking the dog at the right time is baloney. Your best chance of surviving is to stand absolutely still. If you are unarmed, and you try to fight the dog, you will lose. The dog is fast enough to bite you two or three times before you even realize where you've been bit. And by then... it's over.

[ccsraj]

You should not be fighting a dog with stand up, you need to think Shui Jiao. Get in close and clinch him then go for the throw.

If you use the throw I explained above you will most likely sprain his left leg enough to make him think twice about engaging you a second time. If he's dumb enough to try again, next time step in and behind so you end up laying on top of his back and then choke him out.

Also, Dogs do not land on thier feet like cats If you can enter like I explained you can feed into all sorts of pile driving throws and take downs that will put him on his side or back and will allow you to gain top controll.

Good analysis on dogs behaviour.

[Johnny Tsai]

I was house sitting once about 15 years ago, and while I was taking out the trash still half asleep at about sunrise , the couple I was house sitting for forgot to mention the bid A** 100 lb + New Foundland (I think I spelled it right) in the yard.

Needless to say, I dropped two large bags of trash as this massive dog jump at at me and put it's two paws on my shoulders and knocked me back into the fence. I am 5'6, it was like 6 foot standing up.


My response was to double hand grab it underneath it's jaw , squeeze it's throat, shove it back and Knee the hell out of it's chest , It knocked it back and it tried to jump again and I groin kicked it (yup, works on jumping dogs). It yelped and fell back , I'm am pretty sure I hurt the dog, but never brought it up to the owners. I got the hell out of the yard and left the trash right where it fell. The end.


My only experience.

[SAAMAG]

This thread has got to be total bull****--and I hope no one actually takes any of this advice....

Dogs will vary in their ferocity and ability and weakness. Just with any wild animal, its got natural weapons that you do not. Try and beat the thing down with whatever you can find--if there's nothing around than you'd have a better chance with a covered foot than a bare arm. Slamming a dog or shoving your thumb in it's eye will usually get them to let go if they're biting.

Why you walked up behind the coyote is beyond me...you asked for the trouble to be honest.

[Black Jack II]

Good analysis on dogs behaviour

No its not.

[Johnny Tsai]

This thread has got to be total bull****--and I hope no one actually takes any of this advice....
.



Vankuen,

I'm sorry was that aimed at my post? Hope not, because it was an actual occurance, not advice.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, I sparred a Rott this weekend. I used all the same stuff that worked on the shepard and got chewed up but good. Seems the Rot has a much tighter turning radias than the Shepard, and can actually bite me when I *Think* I had him locked up....so kindly disregaurd anything I have said on this thread unles you are fighting a Shepard.

[John Takeshi]

The biggest dogs in the world will still lose to the biggest cats.

[Snake77]

I have been attacked by a dog before and it sucked. I put mt arms in the line of its bite and it got forearm good. Basically I powered it down and choked and kneed it. It let go But I did'nt. I held it down and yelled for help. I've got a nice scar on my forearm from that **** dog.

[Chosen-frozen]

I keep reading all this offer it your arm stuff and cringing.( Yeah, yeah, it beats letting the dog choose where he bites but...) I spent 2 years in our local volunteer fire dept before I moved overseas. Quiet town usually no crime to speak of, but we got a resque call once about a crook that got torn up by a lady`s Mastiff. The crook had attacked her with a knife and so he was armed and able to stab the dog multiple times. Even so the first bite and shake from that dog broke both bones in his forearm and dislocated it at the elbow and shoulder. The soft tissue injuries from the teeth weren`t pretty either.

"Realistic" defense against a dog was the thread starter`s goal. I`d say strong pepperspray and a stout walking stick. Distance is your friend people.

[Johnny Tsai]

The biggest dogs in the world will still lose to the biggest cats.

The biggest cats in the world will still lose to the biggest lizards.

[wiz cool c]

You just freeze. Don't move at all. Don't look it in the eye. He will sniff you for a second or two and leave you alone. I learned this trick a long time ago,when I was about 12. At the time I used to take two Karate classes. One was in a bad neighborhood and I had to walk there. There where some stray dogs running around and I got to use this techneque more then once. It works.

[Snake77]

I keep reading all this offer it your arm stuff and cringing.( Yeah, yeah, it beats letting the dog choose where he bites but...) I spent 2 years in our local volunteer fire dept before I moved overseas. Quiet town usually no crime to speak of, but we got a resque call once about a crook that got torn up by a lady`s Mastiff. The crook had attacked her with a knife and so he was armed and able to stab the dog multiple times. Even so the first bite and shake from that dog broke both bones in his forearm and dislocated it at the elbow and shoulder. The soft tissue injuries from the teeth weren`t pretty either.

"Realistic" defense against a dog was the thread starter`s goal. I`d say strong pepperspray and a stout walking stick. Distance is your friend people.


I've got a pretty gnarly scar,BUT that dog was zeroed in on my crotch. If it happens again the dog will suffer puncture wounds.

[FungFu2u2]

I have a wolf/Husky mix..you need to show them who is the alpha. I have beat the crap out of her and she still listens to my husband, before me. Heck I even trained her to not just grab food and bring back a ball when thrown.My husband is the alpha male when it comes to her. She is over 100 pounds and will not let anyone come near the kids. The neighbors chickens are her favorite treat. I do all the training and my husband gets all the credit, thats crap.

[Lucas]

The biggest cats in the world will still lose to the biggest lizards.

http://www.komodotours.com/images/komodo-dragon.gif

VS.

http://www.exzooberance.com/virtual%20zoo/they%20walk/tiger/Siberian%20Tiger%20471057.jpg

you be the judge.

[BlueTravesty]

http://www.komodotours.com/images/komodo-dragon.gif

VS.

http://www.exzooberance.com/virtual%20zoo/they%20walk/tiger/Siberian%20Tiger%20471057.jpg

you be the judge.

I smell one of those 3d rendered animal face offs... come on, National Geographic, I'm waiting...

[John Takeshi]

I'll bet Michael Vick could teach you a thing or two about how to defend against a dog....heh....heh....heh....

*ZAAAP!* *Bang!*

[SAAMAG]

Vankuen,

I'm sorry was that aimed at my post? Hope not, because it was an actual occurance, not advice.

No not at all...sorry about the miscommunication. I was amazed at all the bad advice being given is all....

[Fox]

As a lettier carrier, I can tell you that pepperspray does not work very well on the larger breeds of dogs. I worry more about those little yappers that come from behind, out of no where.

[boshea]

The biggest dogs in the world will still lose to the biggest cats.
The biggest cats in the world will still lose to the biggest lizards.

The biggest lizards in the world will still lose to the biggest duckbilled platypus.

[Johnny Tsai]

http://www.komodotours.com/images/komodo-dragon.gif

VS.

http://www.exzooberance.com/virtual%20zoo/they%20walk/tiger/Siberian%20Tiger%20471057.jpg

you be the judge.


When I said the "the biggest lizards", I was referring to Crocs and Gators. :D

[boshea]

When I said the "the biggest lizards", I was referring to Crocs and Gators. :D

When I said "the biggest duckbilled platypus," I was referring to this (see attached image).

[Johnny Tsai]

When I said "the biggest duckbilled platypus," I was referring to this (see attached image).

Now thats funny!

Actually after surfing youtube, I stand corrected. It appears Tigers hunt Alligators for food? Either way, vid show Tigers winning.

[John Takeshi]

I don't know if any of you guys have ever seen Karate Bear Fighter, or Karate Bull Fighter, with Sonny Chiba playing the part of Masutatsu Oyama, but I think he makes an excellent representation on how to deal with killer animals. If it's a dog, try ripping off his tail with your bare hands.

[Vajramusti]

If it's a dog, try ripping off his tail with your bare hands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont want to try that with Vick's friends.

joy chaudhuri

[mkriii]

Choke the dog out BJJ style. Don't try to pull away if he has a hold of your arm. In fact as someone said give it to him. While he has your arm in his mouth push your arm forward down his throat. When he opens to try to get more or a better grip then pull it out. I don't know if it would work BUT i would use eye guages and ear strikes using my palm also.

[BaguaGoblin]

Some crazy ideas in this thread!

#1 Don't sneak up behind it!!

You're putting the coyote in a dangerous situation, by being that close. It's like cornering it. They are probably in survival mode, and they don't know humans like a domestic dog. A snake will slither away but if you get too close, it has to defend itself or die.

Grab a garbage can or something if you're going to go towards it, but still don't sneak up on them.

#2 Stay away from it's mouth. Don't let it bite you. Like a knife, don't get stabbed.

[The Willow Sword]

you know when it gets right down to it, if you are attacked by a dog,and a big dog for that matter, you are fuked, no ands ifs or buts about it. you are going to get bitten and if it is two dogs attacking you then you are even more majorly fuked than when you got attacked by one dog. you WILL get ripped apart, you will p!ss yourself silly as you are being attacked, you will pray to god that you survive and then IF you come out of it alive, then its off to the ER for rabies shots as well as stitches and then reconstructive surgey to make yourself look like "normal" again. This is FACT.

As for all the coyote comments, coyotes will NEVER allow you to get within 20 yds of them let alone 20 inches. they are reclusive and shy and they will NEVER let you know that they are at your doorstep UNTIL they have carried off your livestock and then yip and yodel off in the distance to celebrate their nightly hunt. you will hear them but you will never see them except in very rare cases.

(since we dont go around carrying sticks and bats and swords and shotguns) The ONLY thing that will help you in a dog attack is IF you are a licensed handgun owner and you have it with you. MACE will just come flowing back into your face and then YOU will be even MORE FUKED THAN FUKED.

Thank your creator or however you see the world and kharma that you have not been attacked by a dog, because if you do get attacked,what did i say before??? YES i said your fuked.
































your fuked.

Peace,TWS

[sonny1595]

Well I would have to say first mistake is to defend....the moment you placed yourself in a defense you became vunerable. Second you should have been counter attacking with no option but to kill the animal...the animal has only one plan and he would kill you with no hesitation, so too must be this animal. So stkes executed should have been directed to kill the animal.

Good luck with your next animal attack.

[David Jamieson]

taser it.

then put it in a duffle bag.

don't forget to make sure you protect your supporting ankle. :p

[Drake]

If it has your hand, grip the lower jaw (you've already been bitten anyway). The dog will lose nearly all of its bite strength (I've been through this before, it's true) and will be lucky if it can even break your skin. Just make sure you use your other arm and legs to stabilize the dog, which at that point will panic due to this.

I hate hate HATE killing dogs for any reason, but after you've stabilized the dog's mouth, proceed to use your spare arm to choke it out. Be vicious, be savage, and don't get all soft when it starts to whine.

I feel sick just typing this... :(

Run the poor thing off if you can... it's likely just hungry due to no food, thanks to urbanization and habitat depletion.

[RFM]

Funny, the only time I have been overly concerned about dog attacks was when I was on deployment in Bosnia and Iraq and there were packs of them, scared and hungry, and being the portly fellow that I am - I was concerned. In such situations though, I was also well armed (though shooting the dogs or any unauthorized discharge of my weapon was prohibited) and somewhat protected by my body armor/gear.

Another place I had concern was when I lived in SATX. The strays live outside the city, but come in via water drainage thingys (I forget their actual name). I recall a patient at Brooke Army Med Center that I was visiting who was out running and had a bad encounter with a stray German Shepherd. Dog torn this lady up pretty bad, so bad, that it pretty much ended her military career.

Good thread. You can never be too safe. Something else to consider - how about for those of us who live in rural areas? I don't just have dogs (we all have them) we have coyote and bobcats, some areas have mountain lions....any thoughts on those?

Peace,
Bob

[Drake]

Bobcats or mountain lion? Uh... run... they'll shred you in seconds. Not even Frank's fu jau will save him from one of those.

[hskwarrior]

no, but i will stab this schit of a mountain lion or a bobcat with the pair of pens in my pocket. he will kill me, but i'll leave it something to remember me by.

[Drake]

no, but i will stab this schit of a mountain lion or a bobcat with the pair of pens in my pocket. he will kill me, but i'll leave it something to remember me by.

Well...you ARE an appealing target. You'd keep the bobcat and its cubs fed for months! :cool:

[hskwarrior]

yeah, well......SO! what about those shoes you're wearing?

[Drake]

yeah, well......SO! what about those shoes you're wearing?

dems combat boots!

[Steeeve]

Hey Bros

Im letter carrier ,post man .....I walk .....

my favourite song is Return to sender ...ELVIS :D and the red hot chili pepper SPRAY:eek: and Cookies

Steeve

[jigahus]

I carry a hot dog in my pants all the time in case I get attacked from a dog. Don't ask me why.

[Fox]

Hey Bros

Im letter carrier ,post man .....I walk .....

my favourite song is Return to sender ...ELVIS :D and the red hot chili pepper SPRAY:eek: and Cookies

Steeve

Glad to hear I am not the only one on this forum that believes in the same tactics.:)

[todi]

Jezzz, this thread brings back memoires.... I love dogs, BUT: I have a scar on my chest, on my arm, and on my hand from 3 different shepards. I've had a Rotweiler go after me and I was saved by getting through a door which it tried to take down to get to me. Two other scary moments were: running early morning in the mountains of Virginia and coming across a wolf hybrid and a pit bull that had packed together and killed a fawn. They were in the middle of the trail and we had a face off. It was weird because you could see who was the brains of the group. The pit bull kept looking to the hybrid kind of like, "what ta we do boss? What ta we do?" I stood my ground and the hybrid took one step towards me (which caused the pit bull to start towards me) and then the hybrid changed it's mine. I slowly made my way around them and then got the hell out of there. Another time, I decided to go running after dark on this old trail outside of a town close by here that boardered on the National Forest. I realized what a mistake that was when 5 miles into the run, I head a pack of ferral dogs following me in the trees. I didn't think I was going to make it back to my car that night.
Dogs are varied as much as people in temperment and strength. Some of them are as difficult to bring down as a psycho laced on PCP. Not running and holding your ground may work, and then again, it may not.

[Fox]

Jezzz, this thread brings back memoires.... I love dogs, BUT: I have a scar on my chest, on my arm, and on my hand from 3 different shepards. I've had a Rotweiler go after me and I was saved by getting through a door which it tried to take down to get to me. Two other scary moments were: running early morning in the mountains of Virginia and coming across a wolf hybrid and a pit bull that had packed together and killed a fawn. They were in the middle of the trail and we had a face off. It was weird because you could see who was the brains of the group. The pit bull kept looking to the hybrid kind of like, "what ta we do boss? What ta we do?" I stood my ground and the hybrid took one step towards me (which caused the pit bull to start towards me) and then the hybrid changed it's mine. I slowly made my way around them and then got the hell out of there. Another time, I decided to go running after dark on this old trail outside of a town close by here that boardered on the National Forest. I realized what a mistake that was when 5 miles into the run, I head a pack of ferral dogs following me in the trees. I didn't think I was going to make it back to my car that night.
Dogs are varied as much as people in temperment and strength. Some of them are as difficult to bring down as a psycho laced on PCP. Not running and holding your ground may work, and then again, it may not.
I have a wolf hybrid myself. she is the alpha . I have a shepard male and a boxer male, and she rules them all.
It is funny to watch her crawl under the neighbors windows, so they can not see her steal their chickens. The others follow her, but she is very protective of my kids and my property.
I would not trade her ffor the protective reasons. I live in the country,so when I am gone, I feel my famil is much safer.
I get chased more by the little yappers, then the big dogs when I am delivering mail. I have a few scares to show for it.

[mok]

Just got my first dog 2 weeks ago - a 5 months sheppard / lab mix that is currently 45lbs.

I have playfighted with him a little, same stuff that's been mentionned before: try to get control of his head/neck is the only chance I have. Stuff like distract with one hand, tan sau or bong sau on the other side to get to the neck, that sort of thing. Also up/down seems to work better than side to side - their vision/reflexes are **** fast from side-to-side, but they have more difficulty seeing stuff either up or down past a limited angle.

That said, already the littlle bugger is learning my tricks and is rapidly getting better and faster. Based on playbites I would place my chances at getting the upperhand without a bite at 50/50, and this is just playfighting, not real aggression.

I'm with blackjack - if it's a large working breed or a pitbull, don't think you can get the upper hand easily. And yes, they vary as much as humans in ability/personality, but keep in mind on purely animal atheleticism / reactivity scale they are much quicker than we are.

[banditshaw]

Have you guys ever thought of killing with kindness?
A hug or a cuddle goes along way sometimes.

[Fox]

lol..yep look them in the eyes when they are in kill mode. See how far kindness gets ya.:D

[diego]

Funny, the only time I have been overly concerned about dog attacks was when I was on deployment in Bosnia and Iraq and there were packs of them, scared and hungry, and being the portly fellow that I am - I was concerned.

Peace,
Bob

oh man lmao use a funny guy:)

[andyhaas]

Usual disclaimer, don't try this at home, don't try this at all, I'm not an expert so don't believe me, etc.

But what seems to work best is just kicking because if you go to the ground with a dog they're all over you. Just kick them in the face -- that usually works.

I've tried a ton of hand techniques and the best seems to be punching them in the head, but most of the time the dog gets teeth in.

[the Preacher]

you know when it gets right down to it, if you are attacked by a dog,and a big dog for that matter, you are fuked, no ands ifs or buts about it. you are going to get bitten and if it is two dogs attacking you then you are even more majorly fuked than when you got attacked by one dog. you WILL get ripped apart, you will p!ss yourself silly as you are being attacked, you will pray to god that you survive and then IF you come out of it alive, then its off to the ER for rabies shots as well as stitches and then reconstructive surgey to make yourself look like "normal" again. This is FACT.

As for all the coyote comments, coyotes will NEVER allow you to get within 20 yds of them let alone 20 inches. they are reclusive and shy and they will NEVER let you know that they are at your doorstep UNTIL they have carried off your livestock and then yip and yodel off in the distance to celebrate their nightly hunt. you will hear them but you will never see them except in very rare cases.

(since we dont go around carrying sticks and bats and swords and shotguns) The ONLY thing that will help you in a dog attack is IF you are a licensed handgun owner and you have it with you. MACE will just come flowing back into your face and then YOU will be even MORE FUKED THAN FUKED.

Thank your creator or however you see the world and kharma that you have not been attacked by a dog, because if you do get attacked,what did i say before??? YES i said your fuked.



your fuked.

Peace,TWS




its funny the morning "walkers" do carry sticks around here!

wolfgang (http://sandakungfu.com/images/sanda%20kung%20fu/BalckDog.jpg)

my dog has killed three coyotes
he's mean as HELL
he likes to fight
he's bitten 6 people
(a total of 18 stitches)
10 days solitary @ animal control
got his "prison' tattoo

I have to be careful with him around unfamiliar people.

[BUK SING]

hold ur arm out and present your the outside of your hand (the side with knuckles on it) have your hand just flop let it smell your hand and the dog will ussaully become freindly if it dosn't your hands in a position were it probably wont be sereiously injured (watch your wrist though) and push your hand up (in the same position) this is kind of like a drunken technique to the dogs lower jaw the send your fingers into the dogs eyes. You could also kick it in the ribs dogs are quite weak their.

[Drake]

hold ur arm out and present your the outside of your hand (the side with knuckles on it) have your hand just flop let it smell your hand and the dog will ussaully become freindly if it dosn't your hands in a position were it probably wont be sereiously injured (watch your wrist though) and push your hand up (in the same position) this is kind of like a drunken technique to the dogs lower jaw the send your fingers into the dogs eyes. You could also kick it in the ribs dogs are quite weak their.

Put out your hand? I have a scar on my hand that is solid proof that that is a terrible idea.

[BUK SING]

Put out your hand? I have a scar on my hand that is solid proof that that is a terrible idea.

Thats still a good ide because it stops it going to your face stomach or leg.

[Hitman]

Very interesting comments.

There are thugs in Britain that use their dogs as weapons. BBC television news last night showed a man training his dog to attack people. My question is what is your defence against the owner hitting or stabbing you, while you busy wrestling or hitting his dog? (Provided the dog has not seriously hurt you first)

Thank you
Hitman

[CoolHead]

The advantage for the dog usually begins once it has sensed the target is unprepared, but there are also plenty out there that will want to try you no matter what. Before you need it, you need to decide your willing to commit to
a violent response that is pure business. Yang promoted using a shoe as a gaurd and a slapper; keep your elbows in and use quick movements, provoke the
animal to commit to a grabbing bite. Once it closes and you are over it, stomp straight down on one of it's rear legs at the elbow- and get clear fast. If you are quick and accurate you can change direction at the last second and punch straight for the nose, or take out an eye once the mouth is busy with your footwear- Those backlegs are totally vulnerable at 90 degrees, fighting dogs plant their rear legs. Domestic dogs are not prepared for this attack, but never try it on a Wolf.

[latta]

I read an article in "Black Belt" written by a dog trainer about defending a dog according to his experience, and wasn't very impressed. I wrote a letter to the editor expounding on dogs/people interactions, but they posted instead a letter which raised more questions than it answered. I have been waiting several days for "authorization to post" at their forum, which isn't very vibrant anyway, compared to this one, so I am going to post here instead.

What are my qualifications? I have kept exotic and domestic animals from an early age, including a personal collection which I maintain to the present day. I am particularly partial to reptiles, and worked as a zookeeper for 8 years, and the zoo herpetologist (including many "hot" snakes) for 3 years. I have had American Pit Bull Terriers for over 30 years and corresponded with many famous names during this time, such as Howard Heinzl who had the famous Dibo dog. I have been an APBT club president, representative, organized dog shows, and been involved in this breed at EVERY level. In addition, I have 42 hours of college biology, including graduate herpetology. Also, and most telling, I have been a Postal Clerk for 19 years....

Moving along to the question at hand, how does one deal with dogs? First of all, one must understand that dogs are "bite-oriented". They don't have claws or other mechanisms for inflicting harm. They bite. Secondly, one needs to realize that people are NOT bite-oriented, so one dog biting another dog is not nearly as traumatic as it is for a human to get bitten. Thirdly, it is important to note that the teeth are the hardest part of the human or dog body. Whatever they bite will be seriously hurt. At this stage, let me point out that ALL DOGS HAVE TEETH! It doesn't take a pit bulldog to seriously hurt a person. My mother-in-law was a surgical LVN who worked for a plastic surgeon for many years. The worst dog bite case she ever saw, and she saw them regularly, involved German Shepherds. This is no reflection on any breed. All dogs can cause serious injury. Some years ago, 3 Pekinese mauled a baby to death. So one needs to think in terms of "dogs", not "breeds".

So how does one deal with a vicious dog? There are many facets to this question. If a person knows vicious dogs habitually occupy an area where he or she plans to go, then one should either change his or her route, or make preparations for a problem, or call the local animal control facility and complain. The regular mailman on a route seldom gets bitten by a vicious dog. It is the replacement carrier who is usually in danger. If a person owns a dog which unreliable around his own family, the dog needs to be put down, not given up for adoption to someone unaware of the problem who will get hurt (or his family will get hurt).

What is a "vicious dog" exactly? A vicious dog is one which attacks its own owners or stranger's off of its owner's property. It is popular these days for people to train dogs to attack people, and there are few laws against this abuse of animals. Yet, if they attack another dog, this is a felony in many states. It is very natural for a dog to protect its territory. But it shouldn't attack people outside of its home range. These types of dogs need to be humanely put down. And it should never bark, growl, or snap at its owners in its home range. It must always know it is at the bottom of the totem pole so to speak. Realistically, a dog should warn its owner of a problem, but it is up to the owner to judge what to do next.

So we need to think about scenario-based training. What if one encounters a vicious dog in the park? It is useless to express wild opinions without providing genuine solutions to a problem. The first line of defense is a good pepper spray. Not Mace, because dogs don't have tear ducts, and Mace doesn't affect them. Pepper spray, the higher the concentration of capsaicin, the better. Bear spray goes up to 15%, but most dog sprays only have 5%. The spray should shoot IN A STREAM, not a mist. Mist is useless, as the slightest breeze will cause it to disperse. And the stream needs to be aimed at the NOSE, MOUTH, AND EYES of the dog. In spite of this, some dogs are relatively immune to capsaicin, so it isn't completely reliable. One must also test the sprayer to ensure it is working, practice a bit so as not to aim the bottle at one's own face, and make sure the tip is on each time one leaves the house. The bottle should be on the belt or somewhere instantly accessible.

So, what about sticks? Sticks are good, but I see people in the park all the time with cheap pine broomsticks which are too light and fragile to be effective against either people or dogs. One must have a good, strong stick made of red oak, cocobolo, bahi, or ironwood, or perhaps one of the synthetic vinyl sticks. It needs to be heavy enough to actually disable the dog, as simply hurting some dogs isn't enough. In addition, one needs to consider the terrain of the confrontation. Dogs don't maneuver well on asphalt or cement, for instance, so footwork is important. The stick needs to be swung hard on the dog's nose, which is extremely fragile. In addition, a dog can't bite unless it can breathe through its nose. If the nose is missed, the head is OK. Just as people don't like bites, dogs are not inured to striking.

It needs to be said here that hitting a dog isn't always the best strategy. Especially in the fighting breeds, they interpret striking as "Hey, this guy is getting me. I have to try harder." Aggression must be effective, rather than simply pain-oriented. At this point, I need to interject that fighting dogs are recently bred down from a long line of dogs intended for military interventions against people, as well as various uses for bringing down wild animals. But fighting dogs in recent history are bred to fight other dogs, and ignore people. This is an intraspecific, as opposed to interspecific, behavior. Dogs in a dog pit have 2 handlers and a referee in the pit itself, as well as spectators quite often, so they traditionally for the most part ignored people and had to concentrate on their opponent. Anyone who has every entered into serious fighting competition will appreciate this. One doesn't jump off the ring stool and attack the card girl.

Back to sticks, long distance hitting is the best of course, but, unless a person practices, may not be adequate, as dogs are much faster than people. In the event the dog closes and gets a hold on something, one is better off using a 2-handed grip in order to generate enough force to do any good (especially women). One needs to get the dog off as soon as possible, as most dogs have an innate sense of where to attack to incur the most damage. A severed artery or attack on the windpipe, etc., can quickly disable a person to where they can't defend themselves and are at the mercy of the dog. So, gripping the stick with both hands and using it as hammer or pike on the head and body is one strategy.

The stick can also be shoved down the dog's mouth or between the jaws to impair biting/breathing. This is the principle of the "break stick" which has typically been associated with dog fighters. In reality, the break stick is the safest and most humane way to get one dog off another dog, or off a person. This stick looks like a wooden practice blade, and is simply inserted between the dog's teeth so that the mouth can be pried open while the other hand is holding the scruff of the dog's neck. The cur breeds, e.g. other than APBT's, are much more dangerous to people in this respect as they will snap at anything when they are in pain. The pits usually are focusing on the object of their anger.

As far as knives go, the idea is the same as with people and the targets are the same for a dog or person. A person needs to have a one-hander readily accessible to deal with dogs. One really obvious target on a dog is the kidney. These are usually very accessible to a blade, and will result in unconsciousness of the dog in 20 seconds or so. The kidneys are right behind the rib cage. Obviously, as with people, the eyes are another target. The problem, of course, is maintaining one's composure as the dog chews on some body part. Here in Texas, one can obtain a concealed weapon permit and blow the dog away with a gun when attacked.

I haven't read any of the posts on this thread and I'm not really interested in anybody's opinion or "spins", only facts. I also don't care for the PETA people who put other species' interest ahead of our own, just as I don't like the dog people, a al Vick, who sacrifice the dogs and their buddies to save their own rear ends. I can guarantee everyone that, until we take care of people first, all other species are doomed. Right now, on this planet, habitat destruction in Third World countries has wiped out thousands of species. We are well into a great species extinction which will far exceed the dinosaur and related group extinction of 65 million years ago, all because of human overpopulation. However, I will gladly field anybody's serious animals questions. If, however, someone want to harass me with stupidity, I will post it here and ridicule it for the world to see. This seems to cure a lot of goofiness.

I love dogs and all animals, but people hold the key to the future at this point.....

[Hitman]

I just remembered that there are books written about Master Wong Fei Hung's life. They included two incidents about him fighting dogs. I cannot remembered the exact detail. I am not sure whether they were fact or fiction. Therefore, you have to check them out for yourselves.

Incident one - A friend (X) of Mater Wong Fei Hung told him that a man from Europe was offering 50 pieces of gold to any unarmed person who could defeat his dog. The organisers would not take any responsibility of the injuries the contestants might received from the dog. They went to watch the fights and noticed that all the contestants were torn into pieces by the dog.
X told Master Wong Fei Hung that he was very disappointed to see the local Chinese being beaten by a dog. Master Wong told him that the reasons why the Chinese lost.
1. they all fought the dog as though they were fighting a human. The dog was attacking the lower part of the body. All the contestant were forced to drop into low stances in order to fight it. They were fighting the dog's term.
2. the dog was very well trained and very smart. It was fast and very aggressive. It was more mobile than the human.
3. the contestants had no experience fighting a dog before, while this dog had plenty of experience fighting human.

Master Wong told his friend that he would fight the dog the using the monkey style. Next day Master Wong entered himself into the tournament He used monkey style to confuse the dog, but did not attack at all for a very long time. The audience thought that he was going to be bitten by the dog. He let the dog did all the attack, until it run out of breath and slow down. He then pretended to hit its head. As the dog lift up its head and tried to bit his hand, he immediately stamp the back of the dog with his kick and broken its back. When he tried to claim his prize, the owner refused to pay him. Master Wong ended up to fighting the dog's owner in order to get his money.

The second incident was that his enemies sent three dogs to kill him. He killed all three dogs without getting bitten. He fought the dogs one at a time.

[latta]

In the first place, a dog does not tear a person to pieces. It takes a really large animal, like a bear, tiger, or alligator, to tear a person to pieces. On the other hand, it does not take a very large dog to terrorize a human. People have no natural weapons, e.g. large teeth or claws, to deal with a dog, so it is understandable that a person might be terrified if a vicious dog attacked. Of course, the larger the dog, the more deadly the attack. The only reason the giant breeds like mastiffs, bull mastiffs, St. Bernards, rottweilers, etc., are not involved in more fatal attacks on humans is that they are not as popular or easy to maintain, and therefore not as common, as the smaller breeds, like APBT's, German Shepherds, Chows, Doberman Pinschers, etc.

Secondly, the stories of the old Chinese masters are myths and the stuff of legends, and don't seem to be based on specific incidents. Rather they are glorified stories enhanced by their students to make them look even better than they probably were in life. Obviously, we have more and more dedicated martial artists of all types in the world today. It only makes sense that some of these people are the equal or better than the martial artists of yesteryear.

So saying, it would be very difficult for an unarmed person to defend unarmed against 3 large, determined dogs, moreso than 3 unarmed people. It is virtually impossible to break a dog's back with a kick. I have never heard of anything less than a car paralyzing a normal-sized dog. It is easier to thrust a stick down the dog's throat or jam it between the jaws to prevent it biting. In addition, because dogs have no other weapon than their teeth and jaws, people in the past who fought wolves and dogs would control the head by gripping the nape of the neck or jamming a gloved hand into the mouth and pulling down the lower jaw while they strangled around the neck with the other arm. Legends are nice, but we need to stick to the reality of what happens when a real person, for instance, meets up with a vicious dog in the park of street.

At this point, I will touch on a few other strategies for dogs. If the person is handy with a stick or sword cane (which they are conveniently carrying), the stick or blade can be thrust downwards right between the shoulder blades of the attacking dog (assuming it is not very large), just as a matador thrusts the sword on a bull, and it will stop the dog in its tracks. This technique is the downwards version of the "lion-killing technique" of kung fu, where the end of the spear is planted in the ground and the spear is angled upwards to catch the cat as it makes its final jump.

Also, an umbrella is can be opened to intimidate the dog. For some reason, dogs are in frightened or put off by an open umbrella (The frilled lizard of Australia uses a similar strategy). In addition, any kind of cattle prod or taser is terrifying to a dog (as it is to people). For really large dogs, we have a saying, "The bigger the dog, the smaller the heart". So a solid blow with a stick to the nose, head, or ear is usually sufficient to put them off. Ideally, though, most dog attacks can be prevented by calling in offending owners and their dogs to the local animal control authorities before an attack ever takes place, and by euthanizing dogs which prove to be aggressive to people.

[Hitman]

In the first place, a dog does not tear a person to pieces.

You are very fortunate and never have the experience of having several chunk of your own flesh removed by a dog. I got several chunk my own flesh removed by a neighbour's dog when I was very young. My mother had been bitten by dogs before, but she never had the experience of seeing chuck of her own flesh being removed by the dogs.

[latta]

Certainly a vicious dog can tear off a chunk of flesh, break small bones, and, given a little time or perhaps a pack of dogs, maim and maul to the tune of hundreds of stitches, as well as severing arteries causing blood loss resulting in death. Small children and elderly people are especially vulnerable, as they are physically vulnerable and unable to defend themselves. I had an English Mastiff which could chew up the large joints of a cow like candy. However, a dog cannot tear off an arm, leg, or head as we have all seen happen with bears, sharks, alligators, tigers, and the like. Definitely, though, it has been proven over and over that dogs can kill people, and the smaller the person and larger the dog, the more dangerous the result. I can recall years ago when 3 Pekinese mauled a baby to death.

On the other hand, as the former president of an ADBA-sponsored club here, I once organized and ran an APBT (American Pit Bull Terrier) - only fun show where we had 112 entered dogs without a single incident of any kind. I have offered to lecture on the care, restraint, and handling of dogs here, as we, like most cities, have a big problem, yet I never got any response at all from any dog organizations here. Apparently, they like things to happen first so they can provide a knee-jerk reaction after the fact, or maybe they simply like to appear to know everything.

The gist of my lectures would be the methods and different types of effective restraint of a dog, as well as the bad ideas. For instance, double nylon collars, rather than a single leather collar. Eventually the leather can stretch and the dog gets away because the owner never checks it. And one would be amazed how many people tie up their dogs with rope or light chain, which any self-respecting dog will chew out of immediately. And some people walk or tie up their dogs in harnesses, which some dogs are very adept at backing out of. A dog anywhere in close unavoidable contact with people should be muzzled just as a courtesy.

And it's amazing how many dog owners think it's funny when their dog barks at someone, either off- or on-lead or through or across the fence. Not many people find this amusing. Or how many people will let their dogs loose unrestrained on their property with the result that the dog runs off the property to challenge someone or chase something, then runs back on the property. Also a dog should never be aggressive towards its owner, even when pushed off its food dish. It should never growl at the owner's family, and especially not at children. If it runs off its property and attacks a person or another animal, it should be euthanized. No 2- or 3-strike rule, because the 1st strike could kill or maim a person. And there is liability on the part of the dog owner. The injured person has recourse to civil suits. Sue the pants off the dog owner.

A dog should be trained to stay in a travel kennel when on the road, so it doesn't run out and chase or attack someone or something. The collar should be no looser than 2 fingers between collar and neck, and no tighter than 1 finger. The size of the collar and strength of the lead and clasp should be proportionate to the size of the dog. Double clasps with strong swivels are a good way to prevent a dog from unfastening a single clasp, which some dogs have a knack for doing. Of course, all dogs used in a public setting should have a minimum of training. It only takes 10 - 15 minutes of training per day from an early age, say 4 - 6 weeks, to train a dog.

A dog which attacks its owner, family, or friends without good cause should be euthanized, not taken to the pound or given away where it becomes someone else's problem. And a loose dog or other dog problem should be reported to the proper authorities BEFORE an accident or tragedy. You'd be surprised how fast these bad-assed gangbangers with impressive dogs run and hide under their bed the first time something comes down. Who did you see defending Michael Vick?... not that he deserved any defense. A guy who would electrocute or drown dogs that just fought for their owner should be drowned or electrocuted himself. But his own family and friends rolled over on him and ****ed on themselves to save themselves stiffer charges and potential jail times and fines.

When one's dog of a particular breed attacks someone, it reflects on the whole breed, not just the individual dog or the owner, just as a guy who trains in karate, MMA, or any martial art, then gets busted for rape, child porn, mugging, or drugs, reflects on the whole art. People are fear-mongers. They need to know dogs, and by extension the dog owners, are under control, rather than out to get them. Sorry, I tend to rant on this subject. BTW I see where LA just passed a law requiring most dogs and cats to get spayed or neutered. I think LA will always have a problem until they require the spaying and neutering of most people. As the late great Pete Sparks said, "The more I see of people, the better I like dogs".... ;)

[bakxierboxer]

.... I think LA will always have a problem until they require the spaying and neutering of most people.....

An interesting idea.... probably save a few bucks, too.

[Seppukku]

What are my qualifications? I have kept exotic and domestic animals from an early age, including a personal collection which I maintain to the present day. I am particularly partial to reptiles, and worked as a zookeeper for 8 years, and the zoo herpetologist (including many "hot" snakes) for 3 years.

So, what do I need to do if I'm being attacked by a snake?

By the way, good luck with your herpes (I didn't even know there was an -ology to the study of herpes, or that those infected with the disease were verifiable -ologists. At least someone's out there fighting the big nasty.

[zapruder_bjj]

Certainly a vicious dog can tear off a chunk of flesh, break small bones, and, given a little time or perhaps a pack of dogs, maim and maul to the tune of hundreds of stitches, as well as severing arteries causing blood loss resulting in death. Small children and elderly people are especially vulnerable, as they are physically vulnerable and unable to defend themselves. I had an English Mastiff which could chew up the large joints of a cow like candy. However, a dog cannot tear off an arm, leg, or head as we have all seen happen with bears, sharks, alligators, tigers, and the like. Definitely, though, it has been proven over and over that dogs can kill people, and the smaller the person and larger the dog, the more dangerous the result. I can recall years ago when 3 Pekinese mauled a baby to death.

On the other hand, as the former president of an ADBA-sponsored club here, I once organized and ran an APBT (American Pit Bull Terrier) - only fun show where we had 112 entered dogs without a single incident of any kind. I have offered to lecture on the care, restraint, and handling of dogs here, as we, like most cities, have a big problem, yet I never got any response at all from any dog organizations here. Apparently, they like things to happen first so they can provide a knee-jerk reaction after the fact, or maybe they simply like to appear to know everything.

The gist of my lectures would be the methods and different types of effective restraint of a dog, as well as the bad ideas. For instance, double nylon collars, rather than a single leather collar. Eventually the leather can stretch and the dog gets away because the owner never checks it. And one would be amazed how many people tie up their dogs with rope or light chain, which any self-respecting dog will chew out of immediately. And some people walk or tie up their dogs in harnesses, which some dogs are very adept at backing out of. A dog anywhere in close unavoidable contact with people should be muzzled just as a courtesy.

And it's amazing how many dog owners think it's funny when their dog barks at someone, either off- or on-lead or through or across the fence. Not many people find this amusing. Or how many people will let their dogs loose unrestrained on their property with the result that the dog runs off the property to challenge someone or chase something, then runs back on the property. Also a dog should never be aggressive towards its owner, even when pushed off its food dish. It should never growl at the owner's family, and especially not at children. If it runs off its property and attacks a person or another animal, it should be euthanized. No 2- or 3-strike rule, because the 1st strike could kill or maim a person. And there is liability on the part of the dog owner. The injured person has recourse to civil suits. Sue the pants off the dog owner.

A dog should be trained to stay in a travel kennel when on the road, so it doesn't run out and chase or attack someone or something. The collar should be no looser than 2 fingers between collar and neck, and no tighter than 1 finger. The size of the collar and strength of the lead and clasp should be proportionate to the size of the dog. Double clasps with strong swivels are a good way to prevent a dog from unfastening a single clasp, which some dogs have a knack for doing. Of course, all dogs used in a public setting should have a minimum of training. It only takes 10 - 15 minutes of training per day from an early age, say 4 - 6 weeks, to train a dog.

A dog which attacks its owner, family, or friends without good cause should be euthanized, not taken to the pound or given away where it becomes someone else's problem. And a loose dog or other dog problem should be reported to the proper authorities BEFORE an accident or tragedy. You'd be surprised how fast these bad-assed gangbangers with impressive dogs run and hide under their bed the first time something comes down. Who did you see defending Michael Vick?... not that he deserved any defense. A guy who would electrocute or drown dogs that just fought for their owner should be drowned or electrocuted himself. But his own family and friends rolled over on him and ****ed on themselves to save themselves stiffer charges and potential jail times and fines.

When one's dog of a particular breed attacks someone, it reflects on the whole breed, not just the individual dog or the owner, just as a guy who trains in karate, MMA, or any martial art, then gets busted for rape, child porn, mugging, or drugs, reflects on the whole art. People are fear-mongers. They need to know dogs, and by extension the dog owners, are under control, rather than out to get them. Sorry, I tend to rant on this subject. BTW I see where LA just passed a law requiring most dogs and cats to get spayed or neutered. I think LA will always have a problem until they require the spaying and neutering of most people. As the late great Pete Sparks said, "The more I see of people, the better I like dogs".... ;)

This was a great series of posts! Not only the thoughts on breeds and dog behavior, but most of your defenses(the only thing is if you are fighting a dog EXPECT to get bitten, because the chances are they will get you) I just posted on another thread talking about breeds and the fear mongering that goes on with a lot of them, and I in fact talked about the culling of human aggressive dogs in fighting breeds. Cheers

[latta]

http://byunews.byu.edu/archive08-MAR-bearspray.aspx

[latta]

Some people are phobic regarding dogs, although I don't necessarily blame them sometimes:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080320132646.htm

[mawali]

It all depends on the size of the dog, the breed, and what is was trained for!
The look at yourself, the one facing the dog, your size, what you are carrying (basebal bat!) other people around and how vicious you are when attacked.

If Mas Oyama could kill a bull and a bull, being larger can destroy a dog, then a man (who is bad a enought like Boris) can surely teach the dog a lesson and have him for lunch.

[jackmcmanus21]

I think I would die if I was walking down the street and saw a guy lock in a rear naked choke on a coyote

[jacksawild]

When facing an aggressive dog the number one concern is your body language. Dog's rely on instinct so keep your head high, make yourself big, don't back away (even an inch) and stare directly at their eyes. Make lots of noise and try a bluff charge or two. If the animal clamps onto you press the skin of their cheek between their teeth to get them to release. To defeat a dog it is usually enough to pin him on his back by his neck until he surrenders (stops struggling, ears go down, tail relaxes) but that is risky for a wild dog. One of a dog's weakest points is it's sternum, grabbing both front paws and forcefully spreading them apart can cause massive injury to a dog (or any quadraped). Pinning a dog down on his front with one arm pressing down on the back of his neck while the other hand snaps his head up will break his neck. I recommend avoiding situations where you must fight a dog, or any animal, but I share these points as a last resort.

Playfighting with pet dogs is, IMO, a terrible idea. All dogs should know that using it's mouth on a human is totally unacceptable (even if it's gentle/cute).

[SAAMAG]

I find it odd that some of you feel that dog's shouldn't be allowed to bark, or growl, or play rough with someone. They are DOGS...and each has their own distinct personality. They will know the difference between playing, and actually fighting, biting, aggressing, etc.

If you want to euthenize a dog because he got ****ed off at someone, than than we should euthenize some people for assault. Dogs are not property...they're living beings. People aren't perfect, and thus you shouldn't expect your dog to be either. Don't get me wrong though--I do believe a dog should be well trained from it's youth, but a "mistake" isn't justification for euthanization.

Saying that a dog should be euthenized simply for running across the street and bowing up to someone or something is moronic. They are protective of their territory, that's a natural and in my opinion, a good thing--so long as they know to obey commands and know the limits of their territory (which shouldn't be across the street but you get the idea).

As far as "fighting" a dog, if it's a lone dog, you shouldn't have a problem, lot's of things in this thread have been said that would work...most of the time...body language will do the trick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The word "chinatown" usually does the trick for me.

[zapruder_bjj]

Make lots of noise and try a bluff charge or two. If the animal clamps onto you press the skin of their cheek between their teeth to get them to release. To defeat a dog it is usually enough to pin him on his back by his neck until he surrenders (stops struggling, ears go down, tail relaxes) but that is risky for a wild dog. One of a dog's weakest points is it's sternum, grabbing both front paws and forcefully spreading them apart can cause massive injury to a dog (or any quadraped). Pinning a dog down on his front with one arm pressing down on the back of his neck while the other hand snaps his head up will break his neck. I recommend avoiding situations where you must fight a dog, or any animal, but I share these points as a last resort.

Playfighting with pet dogs is, IMO, a terrible idea. All dogs should know that using it's mouth on a human is totally unacceptable (even if it's gentle/cute).

Worst advice ever please do not listen to this, as this can get you VERY hurt.

[Fox]

You should never stare a dog in the in the face. That is a challenge to them.

[jacksawild]

Worst advice ever please do not listen to this, as this can get you VERY hurt.

Having worked with dog handlers in the military and police it is standard advice and of course it's dangerous but it is last resort stuff.


You should never stare a dog in the in the fsce. Yhat is a challenge to them.
Very true but if a dog is aggressivley attacking you it is better to appear threatening.

[zapruder_bjj]

Having worked with dog handlers in the military and police it is standard advice and of course it's dangerous but it is last resort stuff.

That is NOT standard advice, it is pure bad advice. There have been good posts on this thread with useful practical information...but you sir were not one of those people, and if people listen to you they WILL get hurt. Like I said before worst advice ever.

[zapruder_bjj]

Very true but if a dog is aggressivley attacking you it is better to appear threatening.

This is like putting your hand on a hot stove and turning UP the heat...OMG PLEASE STOP POSTING HERE!! I honestly cant tell if you are a really subtle troll job or if you are really just that stupid.

[Fox]

Having worked with dog handlers in the military and police it is standard advice and of course it's dangerous but it is last resort stuff.


Very true but if a dog is aggressivley attacking you it is better to appear threatening.

Pepper spray works , just fine for me. It gives me enough time to get away.

[Lucas]

I know there used to be a thread on how to deal with dog attacks but i cant find it. any mod feel free to move this where ever :)

Anywho, i was attacked by a dog this weekend.

here is what happened:

I left my apartment and turned down the walkway to get to the stairs. the view is blocked by bushes. when i turn and walk toward the stairs there is an old dog there all alone, it got startled and started growling... i came up on it pretty fast and so stupidly i just edged my way around it. it snapped at my crotch but i dodged it and went for the stairs. at the bottom of the stairs a moving van was backed up to the stairs with a rot weiler (sp) tethered to the bumper and able to reach the steps... it was freaking rabid from hearing the old dog go agro. i turned to go back up the stairs to see at eye level the old dog going rabid. rather than risk getting my face bit off i went toward the rotty, yelling to anyone who may own them. no one was present. i yelled 'if your dog attacks me im hitting it!"

knowing how dogs are i started to try and skirt this foaming ******* as it growled and snapped at me. i kept my for arm in front of me horizontal knowing either the dog would bite it or not, if it wanted to bite and its not there it will go for my groin or jump for my face. it took the bait and snapped once then bit down on my arm. i stepped into the dog shoving my arm into its mouth as hard as i could, then i used the knife edge of my hand to hit it on the top of the head a few times until it let go, then i sped away.

luckily i wear leather and it was raining out, it saved my arm from getting shreded up. my jacket has some marks. my arm is pretty sore still, and there were some pretty puffed up marks from where the long teeth pushed down into my arm. the whole area is red and tender and a bit swollen, but im pretty sure there isnt any real damage.

worst part is i know dog nature and its not the dogs fault. didnt and wont call the authorities cuz i dont want the dog to be put down for having stupid owners.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The sad part about it is this is the dog!!:eek:

http://www.irenaspomeranians.com/sitebuilder/images/krysarici_112-600x478.jpg

:DJK, Glad your ok! Knifehand FTW!!

[Lucas]

lol dude dont give away the good stuff :mad:

that little guy was MEAN!

[Lucas]

thanks for moving it i couldnt find this thread for some reason

[GeneChing]

I took the liberty of merging this into our dog defense thread here.

Not to make too much light of what was surely a dangerous situation, but anyone else think "it snapped at my crotch" would make a good sig line?

[Lucas]

haha that is a good one! its ok to make light and fun i sure do!

the weird thing is i dont know what i would have done without my jacket on. i think maybe i would have kicked it. i was essentially trapped with nothing but to confront one of the dogs. maybe a crescent kick...

[YouKnowWho]

My teacher hated dog. He was attacked by a group of dogs in his job before. One day he was in a park. A dog jumped on him. He grabbed that dog's leg, spun his body, and then smashed that dog's head against a tree.

In Manchria, there were a lot of wolf. The parents always told their children that wolf has copper head, steal back, and straw legs. I assume that dog should be the same as wolf that their legs are weak. If you have a stick, attacking the legs should be the best move.

[-N-]

If you have a stick, attacking the legs should be the best move.

My Sihing would rough house with my dog when he got bored. Eventually, the dog learned how to avoid sweep kicks and weapon attacks to the legs. And he knew to attack immediately after escaping the sweep.

(And we tell the students, "Why can't you do this? Even my dog could do this.")

[Lucas]

that was something i was thinking about after that, i could to a chopping downward side kick and probably break or injure the leg easily. one problem though is that i do like dogs :o

[GeneChing]

After a long day, I got home and collapsed on the sofa. My dog came up for some petting.

Then he puked on me. :mad:

Your sense of humor is what makes you a great poster here, Lucas. I don't know why so many others take this forum so seriously. And it's my job to be here, or at least part of it, and I do take my job seriously.

[Lucas]

in that case i hope you have a small dog! :p

it gets super serious sometimes....if i didnt laugh i would have to cry

;)

[YouKnowWho]

in that case i hope you have a small dog! :p

Like the one that I have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9tWakpRfY

[Lucas]

your dog reminds me of a mini chewbaca from star wars

[bawang]

bong sao + chain punching
win every time

[goju]

A family of foxes have taken over my backyard so i may find out how :eek:

[bawang]

try rubbing mayonaise on your penus and walk slowly towards them

[JamesC]

:D
try rubbing mayonaise on your penus and walk slowly towards them

Lmao! :D

[Lucas]

**** bawang u gots all the good advice!

[Frost]

Mata Leon choke :)

[taai gihk yahn]

if you ever get attacked by a CO, just bend over and kiss your asz goodbye...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYbM9O0C8UU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhdXFZ-y7Ms
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f4_1258150204

FYI, these dogs are highly prized as sheep-heard protectors because they basically kill wolves; wild wolves; in the Caucasian mountains;

and they don't bark first; they just go kill; which is why people like them as house protectors

they are also highly intelligent and fiercely loyal to their owners - my wife had one for a number of years, he was smarter than some people I know

[Lucas]

omg caucasian dogs! id fight one with a spear

[taai gihk yahn]

omg caucasian dogs! id fight one with a spear

spear might work, but you better have great aim...

the other thing is that they are trained to attack one arm, disable it, and then let go and attack the other, as opposed to staying on the first arm, in the event that someone "sacrifices" it so that they can use a weapon in the other hand...

[Lucas]

I should get one of those dogs!

[taai gihk yahn]

I should get one of those dogs!

they are awesome, but u needs lots of space and a lot of commitment to training them - you can't just leave them to their own devices, they require a structured approach and a lot of interaction;

[Lucas]

well maybe when im rich i'll get one. lol i dont have room for any dogs :( wish i did tho....

[wenshu]

if you ever get attacked by a CO, just bend over and kiss your asz goodbye...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYbM9O0C8UU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhdXFZ-y7Ms
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f4_1258150204

FYI, these dogs are highly prized as sheep-heard protectors because they basically kill wolves; wild wolves; in the Caucasian mountains;

and they don't bark first; they just go kill; which is why people like them as house protectors

they are also highly intelligent and fiercely loyal to their owners - my wife had one for a number of years, he was smarter than some people I know

I phucking want one.

[taai gihk yahn]

I phucking want one.

again, it's a big committment - the people who are into breeding / owning these are very involved, no half-aszed approach w these dogs, or they will eat ur asz if u r not on ur game w them; but if u r serious i can point u in the direction of some breeders

[wenshu]

I wish. Thanks for the offer.

I find it to be unnecessary cruelty to raise even a small relatively easy tempered breed in an urban apartment dwelling. Moreover, between work, family and training 3 disciplines I am rarely home.

Work breeds really need constant stimulation. If only I was independently wealthy living on decent acreage.

Pardon the digression;

Where I currently reside in Downtown L.A. it is in vogue to own large breeds. The adaptive reuse initiatives have led to very pet friendly management.

Everyone has these huge dogs. It pains me to think of how long these poor animals spend trapped alone in tiny unpartitioned soft lofts. I'm sure cleaning up after them is no joke either. There are three pet grooming outfits on every block, and at least a couple high end fancy pants whole pet food stores where questions of where is the "fancy feast" is met with haughtily derisive sneering from a hipster with a coke hangover.

They have to power wash the sidewalks twice a week. But that could easily be to get rid of the human feces as much as the canine.

[Foiling Fist]

Nine pages of post, at this count.

Some very good posts and advise already.

When a dog is just being aggressive, watching your flank and standing your ground may help. If the attack is not serious, a bop on the nose works great. If you are going to use a spray, use one that streams and sticks, with military tear gas in it such as Saber. When mace is sprayed under the nose, in the chest area, it can take out 80% of the oxygen one is breathing. Bloodshot eyes will blind, and a dog's nose as a target will not kill, but they will sure feel it more than a human, since they are much more sensitive, this will cause a sensory overload, which will slow the dog.

If a dog is viscous, and intent on harm other tactics are required.

Dogs can be as quick as a knife, so get something for bait, and let him attack this; such as your shirt, wrapped hand, or stick etc. If not a stick or chain, use it as bait, feint, distraction, or an instant wrap over his eyes and/or snapping jaws. Even if the dog shakes it off, that gives you another move; that you should have ready to go.

If you can are an expert on open hand methods, the dog will realize your hands are talons, similar to his teeth and quick. I do not recommend this unless you can also either do 30 fingertip pushups, or a fingertip pushup vertically against a wall (headstand, then push up on the flat of your fingers).

Preferred weapons of nunchakus are great for multiple dogs and on bikes, but are not realistic due to the laws in some states such as California, unless you are on your own property or place of business.

Chains and sticks are great also, if you happen to have one handy.

I prefer the throat rip, but it is unlikely you will hit on a first strike, since the target is so close to his teeth. Puncturing the sternum is a good option. The single knuckle Buddha-Fist is great for a sternum strike, and a full fist will be noticed.

Spear hand can be put in between the floating ribs.

If you are proficient in Dim Mak, or a seasoned boxer, the ear area will hurt and be a knockout, when hit precisely from the correct angle.

For untrained fighters, break the dogs back with a hammer fist.

I have fought multiple dogs alone, but have not had to kill one yet.

Dog is man's best friend, and dog spelled backwards is god.

[Foiling Fist]

See Dogs are Awesome at http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6359021/dogs-are-awesome

Since dogs are said to be derived from domesticating and breeding wolves, you might consider what is going to happen after you deal with the dog, and you have the owner show up.

A friend of mine Barry, who is usually mild mannered and accommodating was bouncing at a pizza joint in near UC Berkeley. A couple of guys kicked and/or messed with his dog, and he picked up and threw the two Hell's Angles through the plate glass window.

Then there is the example of Matt Damon's response when trying to be recruited in the movie, 'The Shooter'.

Most cannot kick a dog, since a dog is usually quicker. If you are fast enough, I have done so successfully in the head, but sometimes get a shallow bite in the process, with tennis shoes. I trained in Tiger Tae Kwon Do, where you would have to do 1,000 kicks each class before you got a lesson. Bill ‘Superfoot’ Wallace could kick a dogs head.

A good discouraging blow is a kick or punch to a dog's ribs, it will hurt but not stop it.

I am usually one of the guys that will step into a multiple dogs fighting to stop it in the park; but about 1 in 20 times I have to stop, or pass.

If you are having problems with a dog, you might try using the ultrasound or radio repelling devices.

Sometimes it is not you the dog wants to attack, but something you represent,
read the book 'Animals in Translation', by Dr. Temple Grandin.

As far as wolves go, you might consider the wolf Romeo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20081222/ap_tr_ge/travel_trip_alaska_romeo

I have meet Romeo many times and I would trust him more than most people.

John Hyde wrote a book on him,
'Romeo: The Story of an Alaskan Wolf'.

[Lucas]

I was recently told taht if you strike the bridge of a dogs nose hard enough you can break it (of course) which can lead to rupture blood vessels there which can prevent the dogs brain from recieving adequate oxygen and seriously damage or kill the animal.

i have not been able to verify this though. i'm trying but there arent really any sites i can find about how to hurt dogs...not that i want to but im curious if its true or not.

any vets in the house?

[bawang]

do dim mak work on dogs?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I once worked on a ranch, and there was an old man that worked there who would run coyotes with dogs, and once the yote was treed he would get off his horse and ease in on it. He would have the dogs barking but also being held back, that was my job. He would reach in with his left hand and as the coyote grabbed it he would instantly, before it could apply great biting force, grab the bottom jaw and lever it downward, and this prevented it from actually biting him hard. He would sort of lift up and control it while myself or someone else taped the feet together. He told me he learned this by playing rough with his own dogs. It works with my dogs as well, but I have not used it to actually fight a dog. He told me that he could do it with any dog but a bull dog. The jaw is too short, too wide, and way to powerful to lever down.
I fear that if you go trying to fight a serious dog by punching and kicking he will do a take down and eat your a$$ up.

[Dragonzbane76]

hum.... fighting a dog...

well first off i would not put myself in that position unless absolutlely nessessary. I would say that it would be hard to do against certain breeds of dogs, as above stated like pitbulls or bulldogs. One thing i've learned about being around dogs is that you stand your ground if a dog comes aggressively toward you. If you give the dog will take your backside. I've heard to jam you hand down the throat, but i've never tried or had the inclination. :)

honestly, I would try to postion myself as you would a weapon weilded against you, control the mouth. only advise i could give on that one.

[mig]

You guys are funny. I couldn't continue reading all postings from dogs to snakes or wild animals. Some are fun, some are out of laland and many too much reading novels or short stories about urban mythology.
A dog is a dog and a wild animal is a wild animal. Humans are wimpy creatures and those who live in the country side around the world know much better. Just don't mess around with wild predators or even dogs. In case of emergency, find anything and use it as a weapon, climb a tree, a table or any safe place if you can but don't start thinking or rationing your lies as you are surviving for your life. Be real.

Mig

[Lucas]

That was the only time I was attacked by a dog myself and I got stuck in that situation, I stood my ground but worked on escape as quickly as I could. When I was a kid growing up I Bastrop Texas we would have small packs of wild dogs come through our property, sometimes while I was outside playing. Wwwould climb something as fast as ww could because ww knew the dogs would kill us. These are more akin to rabid animals with little in common with pet or city dogs. For any wild animal I would never engage without a weapon. Pet and city dogs generally act out on protection instinct. I will say after being bitten I look at dogs a bit differently.

My arm is just now finally healed. If the dog had not been tetherd I would have had a far different situation and outcome.

[Faruq]

I used to full on spar Theresa's Shepard. He was vicious and refused to loose. I got bit a couple times, but eventually figured out that dogs are easy to controll in a fight. Thier reflexes are not faster than yours if you have any martial skill at all.

Your best bet (seriously) is to unleash some BJJ on them.

If you put this on DVD and marketed it as self defense against wild dogs or rabid dogs, I bet you'd make a bundle. There's got to be a better label for it than those I suggest, but there's lots of people out there who are afraid of dogs so I'm sure there's a market. I just want to see video footage of you illustrating all these things you say on a live dog (not full power of course), so I can understand what you're saying.

[PalmStriker]

hum.... fighting a dog...

well first off i would not put myself in that position unless absolutlely nessessary. I would say that it would be hard to do against certain breeds of dogs, as above stated like pitbulls or bulldogs. One thing i've learned about being around dogs is that you stand your ground if a dog comes aggressively toward you. If you give the dog will take your backside. I've heard to jam you hand down the throat, but i've never tried or had the inclination. :)

honestly, I would try to postion myself as you would a weapon weilded against you, control the mouth. only advise i could give on that one.
I know someone (Texan) who had to kill a dog that attacked him by shoving his hand down it's throat, other hand clasped on nostrils while leg scissorgripping
dogs body. Owner of dog was the problem.

[wolf3001]

I hope no one has posted this yet. Dishu Quan.........

[Hebrew Hammer]

I'd just bite him back, they never expect it. Of course you want to go for the scrotum, just don't let your ole lady catch you practicing this technique on the neighbors dogs. :eek:

Footnote: 4 out of 5 dentists do not recommend this, avoid if pregnant, you have lock jaw, you are missing most of your teeth, or you have dentures.

[aussie1981]

shoot it lol, iff you have time then wrap a shirt around your arm and let it bite that arm.....then proceed to beat the **** out of it..

[David Jamieson]

pull front legs apart.

stab it repeatedly.

pull top and bottom jaw apart.

beat it with a stick.

this is only for large sporting or hunting dogs.

with dogs, the problem is ALWAYS the owner.
Unfortunately, your dog needs to be licensed, but the owner doesn't need a license to own a dog. go figure.

There are a lot of people who haven't got a clue about how to relate to an animal, live with one and have one or two as companions. Many folk have a stupid tendency to anthropomorphize their dog. That is to say, attribute it human traits and perceive it to have them. It doesn't. It's a dog.