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cjurakpt

07-23-2007, 08:05 AM

Greetings..

I am curious, how difficult is it to acknowledge the following concepts:

~The ancient Chinese had limited knowledge of physiology..

~There were people that, without knowing the physiology, were able to accomplish superior physical feats..

~That through careful observation and discipline, people could use seemingly little force to accomplish what others could only by using excessive force..

~That ancient people chose a word, "Qi", to describe the type of discipline and the "little force" that accomplished difficult feats..

~That today we can describe these disciplines and forces through standard scientific expressions and knowledge.. just as cjurakpt has done..

Now, i'm no brainiac, but.. i can read, use google to research, and formulate sound opinions.. and to assert that "Qi" doesn't exist is outside the realm of reasoning and logic.. it exists because we discuss it, it is part of the Chinese language, it has cultural meaning and practical application.. it is not mystical or voodoo except to close-minded persons that need something to ridicule to make them feel like they have something important to say..

Qi, as understood today, is nothing more than superior understandings of physiology, bio-physics, and finely tuned disciplines.. and, i can find no inconsistency between that description and "reality".. Qi, in today's "reality" is the result of intellectual research, focused discipline, and a willingness to evolve beyond antiquated prejudices..

Be well..
Be well..
nicely nicely summarized Bob, as per usual...

some thoughts: there seems to be the phenomenon of "if it's Chinese, it must be good" permeating a lot of tai ji and qi gong practice, to the point where it's assumed apriori that anything that was developed in China 1,000 years ago or more must be inherently superior to anything in the so-called "west" (personally, I blame Kapra, but anyway...:p); so we need to move past that a bit...
also, I think you make an excellent point though - that for a people with a limited understanding of physiology compared to how we know it today, they derrived a highly consistent and dependable methodology of empiricism which worked very well given the obvious limitations; part of the reason this was possible was that in pre-industrial society, things moved a bit slower, so people could spend more time watching and listening to the world around them in a way that rarely happens these days - it's like the way many ancient cultures mapped the heavens - they had people who dedicated thei entire lives to observing minute details and recording them - and that's all they did (perhaps, I am assuming that, i admit); but anyway, now that we have the ability to understand much of what is happening in the body differently and more specifically, we can appreciate the gestalt that is "qi" for its component parts - in fact, we can use the paradigm to enable use to engage in non-linear analysis in context of our contemporary knowledge (which I find rather exciting); to wit, your own discovery of the roll of CT mirrors mine, but yet we came up with it independently - so that suggests something worth pursuing, as a means to more definitively articulate the processes involved in tai ji / qi gong practice

anyway, it IS all just BS when you really look at it...;)

Scott R. Brown

07-23-2007, 08:48 AM

Whether we consider Qi BS or not is dependent upon how we define it. If it is biomechanics harmonized with/directed by mind then how can it be BS; if it is magic (in a manner of speaking) then it is still based upon some kind of measurable phenomenon and is therefore a definable and understandable process. Since this is the case how can it be BS??

Either way it is not actually BS, both are definable/measurable. One is presently measurable the other is not presently measurable. "Not presently measurable" does not mean it is impossible to measure only that it is we do not have the ability to measure it at this time.

Electricity, photography. CPR, the Taser, etc. would all look like magic 1,000 years ago!

mantis108

07-23-2007, 02:45 PM

Greetings..

I am curious, how difficult is it to acknowledge the following concepts:

~The ancient Chinese had limited knowledge of physiology..

The ancient Chinese didn't have limited knowledge of physiology. Ancient Chinese did have limited knowledge of physiology "as we know it" today in the western world. Ancient Chinese had a very different worldview then the general understanding of the modern western world. It has always been mind-body continuum in mind. Ancient Chinese didn't treat mind as one thing and body as another. This has to be made clear.

~There were people that, without knowing the physiology, were able to accomplish superior physical feats..

I would rather rephrase this as "there were people that have exceptional understanding of the mind-body continuum to the extend that they can accomplish superior physical feats without dwelling into academic labeling of physiology. In other words, they simply just expressed the grace of Dao/God as it is available to them without fussing over academic elitism. ;)

~That through careful observation and discipline, people could use seemingly little force to accomplish what others could only by using excessive force..

The "mechanics" of Ancient Chinese can be expressed as Xin (consciousness) - Yi (mind - seeing and operating through sensory) - Qi (quanta - particle/wave) - li (force or energy)

~That ancient people chose a word, "Qi", to describe the type of discipline and the "little force" that accomplished difficult feats..

Qi can be understood through shu (mathametics), Xiang (phenonema - particularly celesterial bodies), and Li (reasoning). It's not hocus pocus.

~That today we can describe these disciplines and forces through standard scientific expressions and knowledge.. just as cjurakpt has done..

Human brains are wired to be able to expirence the world through reasoning and mystical disciplines. It's a matter of preference to chose which discipline. It is the person who chose to switch off either one ability but we don't have to switch off either one.

Now, i'm no brainiac, but.. i can read, use google to research, and formulate sound opinions.. and to assert that "Qi" doesn't exist is outside the realm of reasoning and logic.. it exists because we discuss it, it is part of the Chinese language, it has cultural meaning and practical application.. it is not mystical or voodoo except to close-minded persons that need something to ridicule to make them feel like they have something important to say..

The mystic way is grossly misunderstood today IMHO.

Qi, as understood today, is nothing more than superior understandings of physiology, bio-physics, and finely tuned disciplines.. and, i can find no inconsistency between that description and "reality".. Qi, in today's "reality" is the result of intellectual research, focused discipline, and a willingness to evolve beyond antiquated prejudices..

Be well..
Be well..

Qi being part (the grace and/or the glory) of Dao is very much like Dao/God in the sense that you can ignore it, sally it, toy with it, or whatever but it just go on and on without failing what it does. It is what it is. It's only when we have human arrogance (secularism) to the extend that we believe we are above and beyond it.

Just some thoughts

Warm regards

Mantis108

RonH

07-23-2007, 04:51 PM

Yes, one of the things I've done is healing myself and others.

Vajramusti

07-23-2007, 05:28 PM

There are different paradigms and resultant models of health, disease and human activity. And there are people who are good within their working paradigms
while others are incompetent or even fraudulent in western or eastern disciplines..
Dismissing chi offhand is possibly a very western cultural bias. A top flight acupuncturist can be miles ahead of an MD in physiology in understanding some aspects of the human body- while a research MD with molecular biology background can know things about cellular behavior that the acupuncturist doesnt.
Some great kung fu systems has come out of understanding the proper flow of chi.
Not an accident that taiji didnt come from the world of Gray's anatomy.Top flight yoga -not the health club variety is based on understanding prana and pranayama....the Indian equivalents of chi and chigung.
Medicine is an applied science- an all medical models are effective in some contexts and ineffective in others. The key is finding top flight diagnosticians in different models.
But as far as a kung fu list discussion-if I want to know what the path of a good kung fu motion is- I will choose a knowledgeable kung fu master who has had access to experience and multi generational observation and practice.. If I need part of my ear bone structure scraped I will go to ear surgeon(MD).If I need to have an unwanted
growth in my brain removed I will look for a top flight neurosurgeon.
Context, context, context.

joy chaudhuri

imperialtaichi

07-23-2007, 05:42 PM

cjurakpt

07-23-2007, 05:53 PM

The ancient Chinese didn't have limited knowledge of physiology.
yes they did - the fact that they had to resort to a metaphorical model to describe the way the body works is evidence that they observed physiological function only up to a point; hence, it was limited; just like "western" medicine pre-1900's was also very limited, and so used many similar types of descriptors (go read some early osteopathic texts - they sound more like TCM than allopathic)

Ancient Chinese did have limited knowledge of physiology "as we know it" today in the western world.
the way "we" know it, is also the way everyone "knows" it - and that's because to a large extent, the bio-medical model trumps the TCM model in most cases, especially in traumatology and infectious disease management; why else has it become dominant? it works more consistently, more reliably and more quickly (largely because it is "forcing" something on the organism, as opposed to TCM, osteo, homeopathy, which push the body's own abilities towards dealing with the illness: works great if you have the forces to do it, and the time...)

Ancient Chinese had a very different worldview then the general understanding of the modern western world. It has always been mind-body continuum in mind. Ancient Chinese didn't treat mind as one thing and body as another. This has to be made clear.
again, read up on "western" non-allopathic approaches such as homeopathic, chiropractic and osteopathic in their pre-20th forms: they are also "top down", looking at the entire organism's function in a holistic context; nothing unique about that in China; and the reason they stopped being so prominent here was because when allopathic medicine hit its stride, it worked much better, for all it's linearity, then the other stuff did on most things (not everything, mind you, and certainly some things do respond better to a TCM / ostepathic / etc. approach); in fact, contemporary allopathic approach doesn't put them in opposite corners either;

Qi (quanta - particle/wave)
why is "qi' quanta? I know Kapra has a very romantic view of Shiva's dance looking like a collision in a particle acccelerator, but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the "very small" level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules...

Human brains are wired to be able to expirence the world through reasoning and mystical disciplines. It's a matter of preference to chose which discipline. It is the person who chose to switch off either one ability but we don't have to switch off either one. The mystic way is grossly misunderstood today IMHO.
mystical experience = self-indulgent cr@pola (just my opinion); mere distraction; solar-flares of the brain...even the Taoist's practicing alchemical transformation warned of them; and the Ch'an folk would smack your head with a broom handle if you talked about that sort of thing...

Qi being part (the grace and/or the glory) of Dao is very much like Dao/God in the sense that you can ignore it, sally it, toy with it, or whatever but it just go on and on without failing what it does. It is what it is. It's only when we have human arrogance (secularism) to the extend that we believe we are above and beyond it.
why is secularism arrogant? why is it arrogant to see things simply such as they are? if anything, theism / religion is the arrogance: man, in his desire to feel like he occupies some special place in the universe and because of fear of the unkown (death) / possible extinguishing of the ego construct, has created, in his own image, a great fabrication that has been the cause of more suffering and torment than anything else I can fathom; don't consfuse Dao and good: Dao is form and function such as they are, and requires no elaborate theology or even belief in itself to manifest; without human consciousness, poof, God begone - quite a difference...

cjurakpt

07-23-2007, 06:02 PM

Qi is part of a model to explain and predict observable phenomenons.

Western science, such as Newton Physics, Quantum Mechanics etc are also models to explain and predict observable phenomenons.

Looking at Chinese scientific models through Western science makes it difficult to make sense. And the reverse is the same as well.

There is virtually no way of solidly saying something is real or not; we can only come up with models to explain things.

We may not even have the intelligence to see what's real anyway! Try explaining to a monkey about the molecular make up of a banana; when all he needs to know is that the banana is yummy.

What makes us think we are that much smarter than a monkey? I rather just eat my banana.

Cheers,
John
agreed in terms of the limitations inherent in observation, and re: everything being essentially a model; the difference is the degree to which the model is able to predict and account for changes in the organism (talking aboutmedicine) and correct those changes consistently; as far as east vs. west and never the twain shall meet, i disagree - I think that as the two cultures intermesh more and more, we will find some way to do just that - for example, the "western" concept of tensegrity is, at base, a model of yin/yang theory, but it's aplied functionally to things like architecture and human connective tissue; binary code is essentially yin / yang theory - in fact, Master Jou Tsung hwa in his I Ching book shows how mathematical concepts such as the Bell curve and binary merge seamlessly with generating a bat gwa...

the difference between us and the monkey is basically the ability to abstract and therefore to project the ego self via the mechanism of psychological time onto the backdrop of reality in such a way that craving and desire are satisfied in a much more complex manner; the monkey wants the bannana, he screams until he gets it, he eats it, he moves on; we on the other hand, are able to manipulate nature so that we can put off getting the bannana immediately, but invest psychologically in the eventuality of that bannana being there - of course, as we eat it, we are worrying about when the next one will be available...

cjurakpt

07-23-2007, 06:05 PM

Yes, one of the things I've done is healing myself and others.

what does that mean? define healed"; and in what capacity did you do it? and to what sort of patients? what exactly do you think that you did to them? how many were acute, how many chronic?

don't get me wrong - I;m not suggesting you didn't do anything, but with things like "qi" healing, subjectivity al la entrainment / placebo effect is what is happening (and I do believe placebo effect is real, in terms of bringing about observable physiological changes, BTW, so I'm not suggesting it's make-believe - but it's not as hard to have happen as you may think)

Vajramusti

07-23-2007, 07:09 PM

when you get to empty force or celebrex.

TaiChiBob

07-24-2007, 05:46 AM

Greetings..

Vajramusti: What do you mean by "Empty force"?

If we were looking for "Qi", a substance we couldn't find it.. but, its effects are observable.. in the classic example, you stand at the edge of a pond and observe two fish.. one is swimming the other is belly-up.. the swimming fish has sufficient "Qi" to demonstrate Life.. belly-up fish, not so much..

The "No Qi" group asks for evidence.. yet, they cannot produce a photon or a light wave, but they are certain of light.. so, when someone asks for evidence of "Qi", i ask them to look in the mirror..

I was considering the notion of Qi as a collective effect, and had some interesting thoughts.. i noticed that my daughter was cooking, actually baking a cake from scratch.. and it dawned on me that the "collective effect" was not much different than a recipe.. that various systems combined to create a new unique "substance".. and, i considered consciousness/mind/intention like the heat/catalyst that transforms the ingredients into something yummy.. Yi leads Qi, implies Qi as a pre-existing condition, but.. it could be perceived as such if the Yi was actually the catalyst that creates the condition, it would appear that Yi leads Qi.. regardless, Qi is an observable and verifiable condition, we simply haven't developed the tools to measure it to the skeptics satisfaction.. but, its effects have been measured.. and those effects are consistent with much of the ancient descriptions..

I have no issue with "Mystical" concepts.. in many cases, it is a reference to phenomena that has escaped our measurement thus far.. in other cases, it is, as suggested, BS.. and, i am constantly amused by those that invest so much energy and time in BS.. but, there are unexplained phenomena that cannot be denied or measured.. those observable phenomena are only BS to those that have limited their existence to descriptions of their experiences, and reject the actual experience itself..

I have shared accounts of my personal "Qi" experiences many times in these threads.. for me, those experiences are as real as the air i breathe, and.. they defy classic explanations.. someone else's belief or disbelief has no effect on my understanding of my own direct experience. Rather than deny the existence of Qi, i would consider it preferable to take the position of wait and see.. science is far from conclusive on so many observable elements of Life, that there is more to be discovered than has already been "properly categorized"..

We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation..

Now, to invite criticism even further, i have not been presented any evidence which precludes a human from "projecting "Qi".. either for healing or harming.. Physics has demonstrated that the current model of existence is open to such theories.. i seriously doubt that anyone has mastered that capability, but.. i will not deny its possibility, however slight those chances may be.. more specifically, i am referring to the "Qi balls" so many people ridicule..

but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the "very small" level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules...
Quantum Physics deals with the foundation of existence, the substance of "IS".. it is necessary to reduce our perspectives to this miniscule level to eliminate the enormous amount of information that conceals the basic relationship between Consciousness and existence, between Yi and Qi.. the observation that "Newton still rules" is just a limitation on our current ability to sort through the complex relationships of consciousness and energies.. Considering that Quantum Physics observes the effect of Consciousness on the most basic foundational principles of existence, it is reasonable to consider that that relationship exists throughout the experience of existing.. but, it is still a bit too complex for our current level of evolution to comprehend, so.. Newton will do for now..

So many differing belief systems and philosophies and Masters have come to the same conclusion.. it is what it is.. whether i eat the banana with complete realization of its existence and physics properties or just enjoy its natural goodness.. the banana doesn't care, my flesh gets nourished either way, and.. it tastes the same.. I think we go through a process of learning so we can forget.. of conceptualizing until we realize that life goes on, regardless.. then, in a Zen moment, we just forget it all and enjoy the experience..

Be well..

Vajramusti

07-24-2007, 06:38 AM

"We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation.."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with that whole heartedly.Possibly a misunderstanding of what I was referring to.

On "Empty force" I was referring to folks who point at a line of people and
they "fall" over.

On western medicine- I was referring to pharmaceutical companies who
substitute salesmanship for science.

Actually both instances involve marketing.

joy chaudhuri

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 07:25 AM

I was considering the notion of Qi as a collective effect, and had some interesting thoughts.. i noticed that my daughter was cooking, actually baking a cake from scratch.. and it dawned on me that the "collective effect" was not much different than a recipe.. that various systems combined to create a new unique "substance".. and, i considered consciousness/mind/intention like the heat/catalyst that transforms the ingredients into something yummy..
no surprise that when speaking about cooking, Chinese talk about having "wok qi" - the implication is that there is something "beyond" the constituents of the meal, something that occurs in the gestalt of preparing a meal: the ingredients, the act of preparing them, the state of the preparer - all these all combine in some way to produce a meal; and so, we have a great example of "qi" - it is, in a way, a field effect: and who is to say that everything that is / was / will be in the universe did not contribute in some way?
actually, my teacher uses the analogy of making a cup of hot chocolate (from scratch) to describe the internal alchemical process...

I have no issue with "Mystical" concepts.. in many cases, it is a reference to phenomena that has escaped our measurement thus far.. in other cases, it is, as suggested, BS.. and, i am constantly amused by those that invest so much energy and time in BS.. but, there are unexplained phenomena that cannot be denied or measured.. those observable phenomena are only BS to those that have limited their existence to descriptions of their experiences, and reject the actual experience itself..
I think that the "problem" with mystical experiences is that many people use them improperly - that is, instead of simple accepting them as one type of "ordinary" phenommena, people use them as a way to boost their own ego, even to make themseleves superior to others ("I had this experience and you didn't, therefore I am better then you" - I've seen it in many forms, but that is the take-hme message"; often it's people who are somewhat marginalized from society, who cannot succeed in the "normal" sphere of human activity, so they come at it obliquel and claim mastery in an area where really no one can tell them that they are wrong - a lot of healers have this - Trungpa talks about spiritual materialism, sort of feeling very good about yourself because of these experiences
so to me, they are actually a way to test the ego - you have your "spiritual" experience - and what? do you hold onto it like another golden fetter, or do you simple see it as one side of the sacred/profane coin?

I have shared accounts of my personal "Qi" experiences many times in these threads.. for me, those experiences are as real as the air i breathe, and.. they defy classic explanations.. someone else's belief or disbelief has no effect on my understanding of my own direct experience. Rather than deny the existence of Qi, i would consider it preferable to take the position of wait and see.. science is far from conclusive on so many observable elements of Life, that there is more to be discovered than has already been "properly categorized"..
dang it Bob - the fact that I respect your opinion and give credance to what you write in general makes it very hard for me to outrightly dismiss your opinion when I don't agree with it per se - you are very inconvenient like that...:)
well, I won't comment either way - but I don't disagree with you either...

We are witness to cultural elitism, where each wants to be superior to the other.. when, actually, superiority is in the unification of the perspectives.. Eastern and Western medicine as a combined medical model is superior to either as exclusive therapies.. superiority is not a concept that builds, it excludes.. the practical application of all healing arts is the path of wisdom.. test the claims, then integrate those that have positive results, kinda simple, huh? no theory or system is perfect, we simply need to apply whichever system best addresses the situation..
agreed

Now, to invite criticism even further, i have not been presented any evidence which precludes a human from "projecting "Qi".. either for healing or harming.. Physics has demonstrated that the current model of existence is open to such theories.. i seriously doubt that anyone has mastered that capability, but.. i will not deny its possibility, however slight those chances may be.. more specifically, i am referring to the "Qi balls" so many people ridicule..
well, it would depend on the circumstances - if you or someone else were able to produce them consistently under "laboratory" conditions, ok, that's one thing; but unfortunately, every time this has been attempted, it doesn't pan out, suggesting it is an inherently subjective exprience on the part of those involved...

Quantum Physics deals with the foundation of existence, the substance of "IS".. it is necessary to reduce our perspectives to this miniscule level to eliminate the enormous amount of information that conceals the basic relationship between Consciousness and existence, between Yi and Qi.. the observation that "Newton still rules" is just a limitation on our current ability to sort through the complex relationships of consciousness and energies.. Considering that Quantum Physics observes the effect of Consciousness on the most basic foundational principles of existence, it is reasonable to consider that that relationship exists throughout the experience of existing.. but, it is still a bit too complex for our current level of evolution to comprehend, so.. Newton will do for now..
I think of it this way: on he quantum level, if you were standing in the middle of a street and a truck came driving at you, if you "believed" that the truck was going to pass right through you, it could work; however, you can believe that as much as you want, can convince yourself thouroughly that you and the truck are both masses of particles that in all probability will not occupy the same space at the same time, so you will pass harmlessly right through each other, and it won't make any difference to what really will happen; probably because the amount of energy necessary to suspend Newtonian rules locally while holding them constant in general is way beyond what your belief could ever generate - or something like that...

So many differing belief systems and philosophies and Masters have come to the same conclusion.. it is what it is.. whether i eat the banana with complete realization of its existence and physics properties or just enjoy its natural goodness.. the banana doesn't care, my flesh gets nourished either way, and.. it tastes the same.. I think we go through a process of learning so we can forget.. of conceptualizing until we realize that life goes on, regardless.. then, in a Zen moment, we just forget it all and enjoy the experience..
so, eventually, no banna, no taste, no eating - where are "you" then?

On "Empty force" I was referring to folks who point at a line of people and
they "fall" over.
On western medicine- I was referring to pharmaceutical companies who
substitute salesmanship for science.
Actually both instances involve marketing.
this is absolutely correct - in each case, you illustrate an extreme situation where the ego of the individual / organization has eclipsed the original intent of the approach: whether TCM or allopathic, they are both necessarilly subject to human desire, insecurity etc. because, of course, they cannot function in the abstract;
if I am cranky at times, it's because I have seen both extremes: I like to joke how you can see a drug rep coming a mile away with their little pull behind suitcases; similarly, the "energy healers" who think they have the purview to treat anybody and can do a much better job then any doctor; so if I am excessively austere in my pronouncements, it's because I want to keep ego out of it - there can be no room for "self" when you work with a patient, and so you need to be perfectly clear about what it is that you are doing, about what is really going on, otherwise, sooner or later, you will get nailed by your own arrogance, and this will ultimately harm someone you are working with

woliveri

07-24-2007, 12:34 PM

PangQuan

07-24-2007, 01:46 PM

One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.

TenTigers

07-24-2007, 07:10 PM

um...everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch'i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn't that what the topic is?

RonH

07-24-2007, 07:17 PM

what does that mean? define healed"; and in what capacity did you do it? and to what sort of patients? what exactly do you think that you did to them? how many were acute, how many chronic?

don't get me wrong - I;m not suggesting you didn't do anything, but with things like "qi" healing, subjectivity al la entrainment / placebo effect is what is happening (and I do believe placebo effect is real, in terms of bringing about observable physiological changes, BTW, so I'm not suggesting it's make-believe - but it's not as hard to have happen as you may think)

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That's just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 07:48 PM

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She's living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control...also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That's just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.
I'm assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner; furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your "diagnoses" are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively; while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your "treatment", you a) are more likely to mishandle it; b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

third, if you think that "you" were the one that "brought down the barrier", you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused "treatment" of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical! who are you to presume to "fix" someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable; furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

I've known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of "off the body" treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt...

Vajramusti

07-24-2007, 08:00 PM

No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat...

joy chaudhuri

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 08:09 PM

When I see a man of 74 who looks like a healthy, radiant, 50 year old and who at will manifests the effect of Qi on his arms and knocks me on my @ss with a simple move, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I stand with a 75 year old Qigong Master who's Qi radiates outward and affects my Qi level, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I see a Nei Gong Master who's stomach looks like he's a professional Beer Drinker but when I punch it with all my might it's like punching a car's Steel Belted Radial, I understand the results of Qi Practice.
look, you can call what you are seeing anything you want, but what you are describing is the net effect of a variety of different functional entities: neuroendocrine, immunological, cardiovascular, neuromuscular, nutritional, pshychological, etc. etc.; instead of going into detailed description of everone of them, "qi" acts as a smmational descriptor, that is commenting on their overall state of being / health; you could just as easily use the word "vitality" (which many people do) to describe what you are talking about; I mean, howmany people have you stood next to in your life who have "altered" your perception of yourself? many people describe being in the presence of politicians, actors, etc. in very similar terms to what you describe when in proximity to a qigong master (and I would agree - i go into my sifu's home and practice with him, and feel like I am turbo-charged - while I can break down the whole experience into various components in order to understand it, while I am there I simply experience it); as far as the results of "qi" practice: the actual practice these guys do and why it works can be explained with contemporary anatomical / physiological / kinesiological knowledge; and the results are that the organism functions more optimally, so that you can experience the effects you describe; so certainly, "qi" practice is beneficial - but it is also totally describable with never once using the terms "qi";

One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.
I have put in my time (12 + years); it is precisely because I have put in my time that I can confidently claim what I claim; I know it seems paradoxical, but that's how it is; my perspective in no way diminish the efficacy of what I do - in fact, it has increased it's efficacy; in other words, I am the opposite of what you describe: I went in as a "true believer", fully invested; however, back when I was practicing in context of "qi" alone, my practice was lacking; since I rejected practicing under that context and started adpting my current perspective, everything changed; because it makes sense to me now in terms I can relate to directly (anat/phys/kinese), I feel more "ownership" of the practice, and as such more at ease, more liberated in it - more freedom everywhere - my brutal skepticism has enabled me to unflinchingly question and examine every aspect of what I do, and understand very clearly why I am doing it - as such, I no longer need to go through routines the same way, but rather can be more spontaneous and adaptable as the moment dictates; at the same time, because I have had certain experiences, I am not talking about it from the outside: I have had numerous experiences of the type people describe as related to "qi", but I don't relay them specifically, because I think they are unimportant to anyone but myself;

anyway, your point about the miracle of life is a great one: the point is to see the extraordinary within the profoundly ordinary - that's really the take home message, IMHO

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 08:10 PM

No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat...

joy chaudhuri

hubris is as equally at home in the esoteric as it is in the scientific...

BTW, it's the US that tends to be pill-obsessed - my wife is a physician formerly practicing in the USSR - the amount of meds prescribed compared to here was significantly less, and results were often better...

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 08:19 PM

um...everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch'i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn't that what the topic is?

well, if one rejects the premise, it's hard to provide examples...

I guess I am guilty of a hijack though...:o

but ok, to break my self-imposed moratorium of description: I have had plenty of "experiences" of stuff - off the body "healing", "energy projection", all my "chakras / central channel" spontaneously "opening up" at 20,000 feet while flying home after a SomatoEmotional Release seminar (oh, I've been around the block with this stuff, believe me), and crazy, crazy stuff when on retreat up at Chuang Yen monastery doing Zhuenti Esoteric Vajrayana practice with Ch'an Master Shou You...but at the end of the day, it's really all just phennomena, more distraction than anything else...

mantis108

07-24-2007, 08:45 PM

yes they did - the fact that they had to resort to a metaphorical model to describe the way the body works is evidence that they observed physiological function only up to a point; hence, it was limited; just like "western" medicine pre-1900's was also very limited, and so used many similar types of descriptors (go read some early osteopathic texts - they sound more like TCM than allopathic)

Well, my friend, if you have gotten out of your Descartesian thinking cap, you might realize that my first remark is a part of a lager statement. ;)

Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor).

There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient "Chinese" healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won't acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited "knowledge" about physiology which is the science of dealing with "normal" (isn't normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts.

the way "we" know it, is also the way everyone "knows" it - and that's because to a large extent, the bio-medical model trumps the TCM model in most cases, especially in traumatology and infectious disease management; why else has it become dominant? it works more consistently, more reliably and more quickly (largely because it is "forcing" something on the organism, as opposed to TCM, osteo, homeopathy, which push the body's own abilities towards dealing with the illness: works great if you have the forces to do it, and the time...)

Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back.

again, read up on "western" non-allopathic approaches such as homeopathic, chiropractic and osteopathic in their pre-20th forms: they are also "top down", looking at the entire organism's function in a holistic context; nothing unique about that in China; and the reason they stopped being so prominent here was because when allopathic medicine hit its stride, it worked much better, for all it's linearity, then the other stuff did on most things (not everything, mind you, and certainly some things do respond better to a TCM / ostepathic / etc. approach); in fact, contemporary allopathic approach doesn't put them in opposite corners either;

While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it's not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she's not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because

1) it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.

2) it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole.

why is "qi' quanta? I know Kapra has a very romantic view of Shiva's dance looking like a collision in a particle acccelerator, but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the "very small" level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules...

Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the "very small" level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don't just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can't create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it's Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick.

Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person "intelligent" about "matters" (pun intended) of the heart.

mystical experience = self-indulgent cr@pola (just my opinion); mere distraction; solar-flares of the brain...even the Taoist's practicing alchemical transformation warned of them; and the Ch'an folk would smack your head with a broom handle if you talked about that sort of thing...

You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn't have to be a p!ssing contest of who's better.

why is secularism arrogant? why is it arrogant to see things simply such as they are? if anything, theism / religion is the arrogance: man, in his desire to feel like he occupies some special place in the universe and because of fear of the unkown (death) / possible extinguishing of the ego construct, has created, in his own image, a great fabrication that has been the cause of more suffering and torment than anything else I can fathom; don't consfuse Dao and good: Dao is form and function such as they are, and requires no elaborate theology or even belief in itself to manifest; without human consciousness, poof, God begone - quite a difference...

Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?

Warm regards

Mantis108

cjurakpt

07-24-2007, 09:28 PM

Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor).
I don't mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no "wood" in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the "Liver" in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other...so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today
as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa's book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with "qi" as a metaphor

There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient "Chinese" healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won't acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited "knowledge" about physiology which is the science of dealing with "normal" (isn't normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts.
I am not saying that, in its time, Ancient Chinese medicine wasn't high level - but it was still limited compared to what is known today; same with Egypt or other Middle Eastern countries at around the same time; as for bone setting, it is not at all rejected by allopathy - rather, it has been updated to be more reliable and safer (e.g. - usin x-rays to diagnose the exact nature of a frature and doing an ORIF eliminates a lot of the potential risk of palpating and manually setting a break without visual access); as for muscle treatments, these are in fact widely accepted by physiatrists (PM & R docs) and orthopedists: to wit, they send people to PT all the time, and we use things like PNF, Muscle Energy, Counterstrain, etc. to treat muscles directly; also, Janet Travel, MD and Hans Kraus, MD popularized the practice of trigger point injection to treat muscles; furthermore, chiropractic and Ostepathic manual practice is accepted by many MD's; if Dit Da is not accepted, it's probably due more to it just not being as well known, and also because of how Emergency Medicine functions in the US in terms of access; but I think that is changing, to wit Tom Bisio and co. teaching it in NYC, with very good results I understand;
but still, if you had your hand cut off in ancient China, no one was reconnecting it microsurgically...so they were still limited as compared to today

Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back.
that has more to do with misuse of antibiotics and lack of proper hygene - it's really more a public health issue than anything; it's not a failure on the part of the treatments per se;

While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it's not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she's not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because
1) it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.
2) it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole.
I am not talking economics, but TBH, it's not allopathy per se that is expensive, but rather the medical industrial complex (to paraphrase Eisenhower) that has taken control of it that has made it so prohibitively expensive; resource allocation has always been asymmetrical, and as such, the have's want to stay that way, so they use mechanisms of health and other resources (energy, food, water) to maintain the status quo; the reason they use allopathy as an instrument is because it works as well as it did although they also interfere with TCM gaining ground because they want total dominance of the market (conspiracy? oh yeah...;))
actually, "western" medicine's greatest contribution has probably been in the field of public health, which, if properly applied, is cheap and effective (e.g. - sneezing into your elbow and washing your hands more are two simple ways to stop disease spreading and this costs nothing); that also includes healthy lifestyle and decreasing stressors (Selye) - but what interfere's with these are the demands of modern society, basically dealing with the mess we have made of our planet and the fact that there are just too many of us living on it

Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the "very small" level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don't just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can't create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it's Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick.
it basically shows that nature works along principles that mirror each other from micro to macro (fractals), and as such there are a limited number of "shapes" that it uses to function as such; as for fire and water being 2 of the 5 phases (not necesarily the first two - it depends on which schema you use), well, that's because they are important / essential elements to basic life maintenance, not because the ancient Chinese knew anything about molecular structure (although I am not clear as to your point regarding this in general)

Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person "intelligent" about "matters" (pun intended) of the heart.
not so - your physical structure, subject to the laws of physics, effects your emotional state profoundly - if I break my leg falling out of a tree, I will have a change of emotional state immediately; likewise, if I am physicall out of proximity of someone I love deeply, i can experience emotional changes - so I think our physical existence and the laws that govern it have a great impact on our emotional state, but we just don't notice it because we take it for granted

You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn't have to be a p!ssing contest of who's better.
it's very simple: don't confuse the relative with the absolute; in other words, sometimes you need to pay attention to individual trees when walking through the forrest; circumstance dictates which is needed when;

Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?
God is dead; so is Nietzsche; we are also nothing more than walking corpses...

mantis108

07-25-2007, 11:04 AM

Thanks for the reply, I have just a short one for now.

don't mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no "wood" in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the "Liver" in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other...so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today

I believe in TCM the liver's main function is that it houses and regulates blood; where as lungs houses and regulates air as a form of Qi. In the context of the Wuxing model, it is of the wood element because of its blood nuturing attributes as well as that it has a distinctive blue tint (ultra violet) - the color of wood. 5 Phases are meant to be abstract thinking model. It is carefully constructed and not at all random and arbitrary unlike a lot of the would be experts would have us think.

as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa's book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with "qi" as a metaphor

I am not familiar with the bell curve and am not aware of Jou Tsung Hwa's book concerning this. I do have his Taiji book though. I would have to double check on that. As for the binary system, well it was a gross misterpretation on the Xian Tian Tu (primodial arrangement) by Shao Kangjie (1011-1077 CE). That arrangement's worldview is IMHO more akin to Quantum Physics in it's original intend. But Zhu Xi (around 1130 CE) didn't quite get the mathematics and the phenomena studies of Shao. So he created his own method resorting to a simpler reasoning model (dualistic) which resulted in later discovery of the "link" between it to the binary system by the western world. But like the Chinese would have said "some wrong could come out right". Zhu Xi's worldview is dualistic where the world is simply black and white as his school of thoughts preaches. So... I think we should be aware of that.

Warm regards

Mantis108

RonH

07-25-2007, 05:25 PM

I'm assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner;

Why would you assume that?

furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your "diagnoses" are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively;

The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.

while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the 'patient' physically and mentally.

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your "treatment",

What I've done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.

you a) are more likely to mishandle it;

If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them), but the energy won't suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn't work like that.

b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.

third, if you think that "you" were the one that "brought down the barrier", you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn't work, it comes from the 'damage' being too much for my abilities or I didn't find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn't exacerbate symptoms.

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused "treatment" of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical!

In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one's opponent doesn't understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.

Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.

Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.

who are you to presume to "fix" someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable;

It's tenable.

furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is 'full' or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop 'feeding', so I stop.

I've known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of "off the body" treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt...

It's unfortunate that you don't have a clear understanding what's happening. If you'd care to say 'what was really happening', I'd be better able to clarify things for you.

cjurakpt

07-25-2007, 08:52 PM

Why would you assume that?
because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that; so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question - if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue? although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.
no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized "input" and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person's psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the 'patient' physically and mentally.
you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

What I've done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.
it has nothing to do with what you give them: I've seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and "off the body" energy healing; there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it's impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them),
oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient's "inner physician" will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person's IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

but the energy won't suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn't work like that.
what I'm talking about is that with this kind of "stuff", you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don't know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people's "impossible" cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn't - but that's what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.
you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession - as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement; if you have no license, that can't happen, especially when you are engaging in "treatments" that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think "qi" healing is real and effective, but the system doesn't; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using "qi" - the system doesn't recognize it, so technically you couldn't possibly have caused the negative effect, since "qi" doesn't really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn't work, it comes from the 'damage' being too much for my abilities or I didn't find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn't exacerbate symptoms.
yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes? how do you define success? and what are you recidivism rates? also, what are your criteria for even taking someone on? don't think you don't subjectively screen out people you don't think you can help (never mind that a large percentage of the population self-screens themselves out by not even seeking out what you do), which automatically improves your track record; in other words, the vast majority, if not all, the people who end up coming to you are predisposed towards "fringe" treatments, and being thusly invested at the outset are predisposed towards a positive outcome, because they have decided beforehand that your thing is what's going to fix 'em;
and as for not exacerbating symptoms: if you want to make an omlette you gotta be willing to break a few eggs - input / output - if what you are doing is such that intrinsically it "can't" exacerbate something, then it's not what's really "healing" the people you are "treating" - there is no free lunch...

In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one's opponent doesn't understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.
are you kidding?!? when you are fighting, it's inherently adversarial! you are actively trying to take someone's choices away! the whole point of combat is to be unethical - that's why it's fighting! when you are healing, it's the exact opposite: you are trying to give someone more choices, to increase their freedom - doing something to them without their knowledge is sickiningly paternalistic, and even the most out-there energy healer types I know wouldn't go for it; as for pain meds, you call it interfering (some might call it intervening, or even alleviating), which belies your own strong personal bias, sorry to say, and is an extremely judgemental way of characterizing something that, for many people, enables them to be functional in their lives when they other wise couldn't be; don't get me wrong, BTW - I am no cheerleader for pain meds, and in many cases i thik that they become more of a problem than the original injury, but you need to evaluate each person individually rather than making sweeping generalized comments about what pain meds are or do...

Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.
proof basically of mankind's eternal drive to stick its head in the sand as long as it's not inconvenienced...but I'm not here to debate humanity's history of ineptitude in regards to itself and the environment in which it exists

Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.
riiight - be very wary of any method where beginners have even the possibility of having an effect anywhere's near that of an experienced practitioner - if they can, it's just more evidence that what they are doing is a) BS; b) not what is actually having the effect they are observing - again: no free lunches!

It's tenable.
it's not; and it's totally unethical

When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is 'full' or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop 'feeding', so I stop.
right - all of a sudden, this body, which is so out of balance that it can't self organize enough to the point where the person is asymptomatic, all of a sudden "knows" just what it needs, even to the point where it tells you when it's "full" - how convenient...

It's unfortunate that you don't have a clear understanding what's happening. If you'd care to say 'what was really happening', I'd be better able to clarify things for you.
brother, I am crystal clear on what is going on - I have no illusions about it - there is nothing for you to clarify at all, so don't worry youself about it in the least...

anyway, this is a pointless pursuit, we will obviously not see eye-to-eye on this; good luck in the future and consider yourself lucky you have come this far without incident...

TenTigers

07-25-2007, 09:11 PM

cjurakpt

07-25-2007, 09:26 PM

so..Chris, have you had any experiences with Ch'i? Could you share them?
-otherwise this thread is turning into the annex for the JREF.
The thing is, from what I've seen, pretty much every phenomena could in some way be explained. I would like to hear some experiences which make you go,"I've seen and experienced some things that have totally flipped me out, that to this day, I have no logical explanation for.."

well, that's the problem in a way - I have never been satisfied by not having a logical explanation for anything: I mean, i have experienced very strongly what many would call their central channel "opening up", or their "kundalini" rising, whatever; I have dewcribed phennomenna to my teacher that he said straight out was microcosmic and macrocosmic orbit activity - I have felt my entire lower dan tien literally explode and melt away into liquid white light (I know, I know, spare me the jokes) on the 5th day of a seven da Ch'an retreat, and after that sitting for an hour of meditation was a piece of cake compared to the hell it was a day before; I have felt so "full" of "qi" at times, that I thought I'd float away

the difference is that I look at all of these experiences with a certain degree fo skepticism - in a way, I don't trust them, and am not satisfied by the typical explanations; some I have been able to put firmly in context of anat/phys and other "western" disciplines; others are partially satisfied by this, so they are like works i progress; but all are subject to the same scrutiny regardless...

and just for the record, I can still point my fingers at people's palms from a few feet away and place my other open hand behind their's, have them close their eyes, and most people will tell me that they feel activity at the center of their palm, as well as pulsations that occur at the same rate at which I move my fingers toward and away from thier hand...a cheap parlor trick IMHO, but still very interesting...and not proof of "qi" by any means, only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated...

Scott R. Brown

07-26-2007, 12:32 AM

NJM

07-26-2007, 03:13 PM

Hmmm.......isn't that sort of the definition of Qi?;)

Not really.

Scott R. Brown

07-26-2007, 04:13 PM

...only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated...

Hmmm.......isn't that sort of the definition of Qi?;)

Not really.

Well let's see,

1) Some sort of field effect?

Qi, is or has a field effect!

2) Interacts with others?

Qi interacts with other phenomena!

3) Has not yet been objectively documented or articulated?

According to western scientific method, Qi has not been effectively or objectively documented to a reasonable certainty!

I guess I should have said, "It sounds like a description of Qi" or "It describes some of the qualities of Qi", but it seemed to me the connection between "definition" and "description" would be self-evident.

RonH

07-26-2007, 06:53 PM

because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that

If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student. Plus, with the way I speak of things, you separate a particular method of speech with one type of view, as if having medical training meant I couldn't or wouldn't speak of things in the way I have been.

so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question

I was just asking why you thought that. There wasn't any hidden agenda behind it.

if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue?

Because whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.

no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized "input" and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person's psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

And when I don't tell the individual that I am giving them energy to heal them, there can't be a placebo effect. The placebo effect requires a belief in something, specifically consicous belief. Subconscious belief is more like brainwashing.

you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

We'll need to just accept each other's views and move on on this point.

it has nothing to do with what you give them

Yes, it does. You said I run the risk of making things worse by the healing itself.

I've seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and "off the body" energy healing

I would need some details of the situations to comment on them. Just saying ' I saw something bad happen, it must have an inherent danger' is the wrong attitude to approach it with.

there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it's impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

Such blanket statements come from a misunderstanding of what is going on. It'd work fine with the medical community, but it isn't the same with energy healing.

oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient's "inner physician" will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person's IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

What you're calling the inner physician is the subconscious. And I already addressed that part earlier with this bit: "If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."

If you truly wish to understand the nature of energy healing and the 'medicine' of it, this is one of the best starting points you can have.

what I'm talking about is that with this kind of "stuff", you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don't know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people's "impossible" cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn't - but that's what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

Any energy healing worth his salt wouldn't deny modern medicine. I've recommended it with people that I have healed with energy. There have been some that have requested energy healing and I've sent them straight to the arms of their general practicioner for some modern medicine. As far as these 'flair ups' you've vaguely talked of, any number of reasons could be the cause, even when the healer knows what they're doing. Where it isn't the fault of the healer or the technique, but of something else. This is why specifics are important in what those situations are.

you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession -

I didn't miss the point. But, what you are suggesting here is that the flair up must have been caused by the healer, seemingly as the default position when there could have been something else that was the true cause of the flair up. If a patient is in recovery after surgury and he willingly does something that would force him to be reopened, would you automatically blame the doctor that performed the surgury or would you investigate to find out the actual cause of what went wrong? What if it was someone that snuck into recovery and did something to the patient? What then?

as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement;

So, imagine the number of legal motions that will fill the courts if it is brought to light just how much of an influence the energy fields of people influence/control emotions, thoughts, physical conditions, the fabric of reality itself:

* Judge: Why are you filing this lawsuit?
* Accuser: He thought bad thoughts about me. That made me depressed and I lost my job. I seek satisfaction of lost wages.
* Judge: Granted, the defendent is ordered to pay the plaintiff for lost wages and pain and suffering caused by mental anguish.
* Accused: But, your honor, the plaintiff is having thoughts about me rotting in jail. These will most likely lead to me spending the rest of my life in prison and I might die in there.
* Judge: What about just thinking it won't happen to you?
* Accused: My accuser had the same choice and he didn't do that.
* Judge: Bailliff, take them both away.

Now, let's get back to the energy healing flair ups. Have you investigated what the cause could have been? Something unknowlingly attached to the energy field of the patient and the healing upset the thing, so it caused the flair up to stop the energy transfer?

if you have no license, that can't happen, especially when you are engaging in "treatments" that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think "qi" healing is real and effective, but the system doesn't; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using "qi" - the system doesn't recognize it, so technically you couldn't possibly have caused the negative effect, since "qi" doesn't really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

What about instances where we see people get bullied into situations that they don't want to be in? In some, like intimidating a witness in a trial is against the law, but others aren't, such as the school yard bully. The system recognizes that such a negative influence exists in both instances, but it allows for recourse by the inflicted in only one of them. Even some things that are recognized by the system don't let the injured party get compensation.

yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes?

While I haven't done the specific numbers, my guess would be that it is in the 90s with zero percent for situations where I have aggrivated situations ever.

[quote]how do you define success?

The total number of people, divided by the cessation/alteration of the current situation, when there is little change, when there is no change and if the sitaution gets worse. For that last one, as I said above, I have a 0% rating.

RonH

07-26-2007, 06:54 PM

and what are you recidivism rates?

In some situations, zero relapse. For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds. There were rotating teams for the company and one day, I was working with this one guy who was militant when it came to his health, but he had taken it to the extreme in a subconscious desire to get praise and recognition from his father, who was also one of the 2 owners of the company. His father was also a very disciplined guy, so the son took it to the extreme to get his praise, but it wasn't doing anything to get the praise he wanted. However, one day, I gave him energy to help him out during one particularly hot day, but the energy had the secondary effect of letting him release some of the emotional energy he had pent up inside him. I wasn't around when he blew up, but I heard second hand that his yelling was intense and several of us, including the father of the guy who released his pent up emotions, the other owner and the supervisor of the team I was on at the time, were privately discussing what should be done to help him. And we all came to an agreement that he had personal life issues, that his ultra-regimented lifestyle was unhealthy. I had spoken with the supervisor of the team I was on privately and I poked around for more information, trying to get a quick psychological assessment of the family/work situation both the father and the son had and everything kept leading back to the father-son relationship, which the supervisor agreed probably was the reason. He had known the 2 of them for about 20 years, but he hadn't thought of the cause being the father-son relationship. The supervisor thought it might have been related to the son's relationships with girls, but when I suggested the father-son link and listed reason after reason why I thought that was why, he started seeing how the experiences the son was having with dating were really a symptom of his problems he was having with seeking his father's approval.

Now, the temp assignment was only for about 4 weeks and pretty much everything I learned about his personal life, outside of a few small details, I heard in that one afternoon. I haven't kept in touch with them, but the last I heard was that the son was feeling better after blowing up that one day and releasing many pent up feelings and he hasn't gone back to the same degree of militant disciplin he had before. The guy before he met me was a robot with over 95% of his life. He'd even beat himself up over not keeping his schedule from getting messed up.

There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point. Now, that being said, I am not responsible for anyone I have treated, intentionally or not, if they choose to return to habits that have caused them to regain something they have gotten rid of. If one were to heal the liver of a lifetime drunk, even removing the desire/addiction to drink and they choose to start drinking again like they did before, the healer is not responsible for them getting a screwed up liver again.

But, to cut the details down to small bits, there is always progress or none at all. The time any one has ever 'relapsed' after being treated by me is because they have chosen to go back to the way they were. It hasn't been the fault of the healing itself.

also, what are your criteria for even taking someone on?

Most of the time, it is because I got this sudden urge to help. I haven't set up a healing shop and hung up my shingle. When it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, it's been with those I'm close to and only them.

don't think you don't subjectively screen out people you don't think you can help

I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.

(never mind that a large percentage of the population self-screens themselves out by not even seeking out what you do)

Are you talking consciously or subconsciously? Because that bloke online that said he was sitting up straighter is actually an atheist, I believe. What I do know of him, he doesn't believe in energy healing, I don't think.

which automatically improves your track record; in other words, the vast majority, if not all, the people who end up coming to you are predisposed towards "fringe" treatments, and being thusly invested at the outset are predisposed towards a positive outcome, because they have decided beforehand that your thing is what's going to fix 'em;

That is what's best. Being open to the energy coming into your body and healing you of what's wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. However, there have been lots of people that don't come to me specifically for that and I find out there's something wrong in passing. I don't go around broadcasting that I can heal with energy. In fact, when people ask me about metaphysical things in real life, I proclaim being an atheist, that I don't believe in psychic powers or magick or an afterlife or anything else related to that stuff. For a time, I had considered trying to get a job at a energy healing place, since I have the master level attunement for reiki, but I chose to not do that.

and as for not exacerbating symptoms: if you want to make an omlette you gotta be willing to break a few eggs - input / output - if what you are doing is such that intrinsically it "can't" exacerbate something, then it's not what's really "healing" the people you are "treating" - there is no free lunch...

And this is more evidence that I could help you better understand energy healing and how responsive energy is with the mind.

are you kidding?!? when you are fighting, it's inherently adversarial! you are actively trying to take someone's choices away! the whole point of combat is to be unethical - that's why it's fighting!

So, that whole bit about Marx and Queensburries rules or whatever was unethical?

when you are healing, it's the exact opposite: you are trying to give someone more choices, to increase their freedom

Exactly, you are supplying the body with an additional source(s) of energy to be utilized by the body. That's part of it.

- doing something to them without their knowledge is sickiningly paternalistic, and even the most out-there energy healer types I know wouldn't go for it[quote]

So, the people that spread energy in the form of love and peace and hope and good tidings and feelings to help increase peace and harmony amongst large segments of people are sickeningly paternalistic?

[quote]as for pain meds, you call it interfering (some might call it intervening, or even alleviating), which belies your own strong personal bias, sorry to say, and is an extremely judgemental way of characterizing something that, for many people, enables them to be functional in their lives when they other wise couldn't be

I'm not calling it interferring. That is the inference you are making when taking what you've said to its ultimate expression of reality. The same would apply to an EMT or an ER doc that is assisting someone that's been in a bad car accident and all the time they are being worked on, they are unconscious. Their conscious mind is not aware of what's going on. Is it unethical to treat someone without their conscious consent? If someone is knocked unconscious and dumped into a river to drown and someone jumps in to get them out, was what they did unethical when they rescued the one bonked on the head, even if they didn't have the legal right to aid in someone's health, like an EMT or an ER doc would?

don't get me wrong, BTW - I am no cheerleader for pain meds, and in many cases i thik that they become more of a problem than the original injury, but you need to evaluate each person individually rather than making sweeping generalized comments about what pain meds are or do...

I'm not making generalizations. All pain meds inhibit the transmission of information from the pain nerves to the brain. Sometimes, they just lower the intensity of the level of pain the brain gets. But, that is what is happening. You are altering their mental and emotional states, regardless of which way they are being manipulated.

RonH

07-26-2007, 06:55 PM

proof basically of mankind's eternal drive to stick its head in the sand as long as it's not inconvenienced...but I'm not here to debate humanity's history of ineptitude in regards to itself and the environment in which it exists

Then, you are missing out on a more complete understanding of what's going on with energy healing, either by oneself or by someone else.

riiight - be very wary of any method where beginners have even the possibility of having an effect anywhere's near that of an experienced practitioner - if they can, it's just more evidence that what they are doing is a) BS; b) not what is actually having the effect they are observing - again: no free lunches!

Or C, discovering an ability they didn't know they had or D, there was something that linked up with their energy causing a power surge that's either temporary or permanent, etc. etc.

[qoute]right - all of a sudden, this body, which is so out of balance that it can't self organize enough to the point where the person is asymptomatic, all of a sudden "knows" just what it needs, even to the point where it tells you when it's "full" - how convenient...[/quote]

Okay, this is another subset of energy healing that you need to understand. Even if you were an atheist, DNA also ready knows what it wants when the body is damage. It even goes through its own DNA repair cycle. Immune systems adapt to things in the environment, so they have stronger, healthier bodies. That's why they say it's best to have kids get sick when they're younger to boost their immune system. Come on, now. When surgeons do the best they can to put back together a broken body, sometimes they leave it in the end up to the person's own body knowing what it needs to do the fix itself the rest of the way.

brother, I am crystal clear on what is going on - I have no illusions about it - there is nothing for you to clarify at all, so don't worry youself about it in the least...

It is crystal clear that you don't have a decent level of understanding of what's going on when it comes to energy healing. Your illusion is that you think you've got a good grasp on the subject. The choice is yours to retain the illusion.

anyway, this is a pointless pursuit, we will obviously not see eye-to-eye on this; good luck in the future and consider yourself lucky you have come this far without incident...

It has nothing to do with luck. It have everything to do with knowledge.

cjurakpt

07-27-2007, 07:59 AM

well, you've basically responded with the typical types of answers that most "energy healers" I've worked with (and now it makes sense vis a vis the Reiki attunement you mentioned - "master" level, eh? so, I guess you stayed for the entire weekend...)

your answers all sound very reasoned and logical, with the exception that the entire premise from which you operate is funadamentally flawed; for example, you mention treating someone who unconcious by an EMT / ER doc as an example of ethically treating someone without their consent - sorry, it doesn't work for 2 reasons - first off, they are unable to give their consent and as it may be a matter of life or death so you can't really wait for them to wake up and give it (as opposed to the people you "treat" who could if they were asked); second, the MAJOR difference is what I;ve been saying all along: if the EMT or ER doc mess up, they are liable for that - so even when the patient is "out", they still have some measure of protection / recourse; of course, your argument is that it's all good - energy healing is "different", that it can only help or just have no effect at all - wouldn't it be nice if that was the way things really did work?

see, when you treat "obliquely", without really doing anything, it's very easy to say that when it works it was because of what you did, but when it doesn't it was because of something else - not having to folow the rules of cause and effect you are free to shape the circumstances as they occur to your own bias

another red flag is how you offer to help me understand when I have not asked for instruction - you seem just a little too eager to help me (and others), yet you inteestingly do not seem interersted in going through some sort of training that would allow you to work with people in a structured capacity - which is the typical hallmark of the amateur versus the professional: for the amateur, it's an adventure - very romantic; for the professional healer, it's actually very different - it's actually routine, even boring - that's what happens when you treat 8 to 10 people a day (also a little harder to get your "perfect" numbers...) who come in with real, actual sickness (sorry, your curtain-hanger example really doesn't impress in the least - try your mumbo with a baby who has chronic ear infections or an adult with fibromyalgia and see where you get); the "skill" is then, to move past the routine, and find the spintinaity, the freshness of each person, despite the repetition: that is, finding the profound within the ordinary, as opposed to looking for the extraordinary as a means of personal entertainment - your writings ultimately reflect back on yourself as being an important part of the equation (e.g. - the "urge" to help: as a professional, I don't have that luxury - you make yourself available to those in need, and do your work for their benefit, even when you don't feel like it) - it's actually quite the opposite: the "healer" should fade out, the healing itself is what matters;

but overall, it's ok, because you are not hanging out a shingle and taking money for your services; like that you can spin your magic on unsuspecting people without concern because since you are neither actually doing anything any different than anyone else projecting thoughts at them in the course of their day, because they have no expectation of healing from you, it's fine; as you say, there is no difference between what you are doing and between what any random person walking by them and projecting thoughts at them is doing, so that's fine;

anyway, thanks for the little amusement - it's a good reminder of why I no longer do or deal with people who do this stuff anymore

cjurakpt

07-27-2007, 11:29 AM

oh wait - a few other things...

If you desire the specifics, I've had some medical training, but I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student. Plus, with the way I speak of things, you separate a particular method of speech with one type of view, as if having medical training meant I couldn't or wouldn't speak of things in the way I have been.
so obviously I was right then, to assume it - and from the way you spoke of thing i was able to correctly dicern you are not trained / licensed;

Because whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.
no - the relevance is not in terms of what modality you use, but in terms of the context within which you apply it

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.
wrong again - credentials assure the patient that you have had the type of training necessary to ensure their protection as much as possible (of course, someone with training can still do something wrong/inappropriate, but again, the patient has recourse)

And when I don't tell the individual that I am giving them energy to heal them, there can't be a placebo effect. The placebo effect requires a belief in something, specifically consicous belief. Subconscious belief is more like brainwashing.
if you don't tell the patient anything, then you have no way of knowing if they actually got better: the entire expeience goes through your subjective filter, and your personal bias is evident, because you never talked to them before or after so you actually don't know what they think / feel

I would need some details of the situations to comment on them. Just saying ' I saw something bad happen, it must have an inherent danger' is the wrong attitude to approach it with.
again, all things ith power can either harm or heal depending on how they are used, no exceptions

Such blanket statements come from a misunderstanding of what is going on. It'd work fine with the medical community, but it isn't the same with energy healing.
right, because that's the world of free lunches - it's all good, the universe will take care of thing; total BS

[QUOTE=RonH;782482]What you're calling the inner physician is the subconscious. And I already addressed that part earlier with this bit: "If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."
it's funny, you keep repeating this stuff like it's real, like these little conveninet beliefs have some basis in reality; anyway, the Inner Physician is not my term, it's John Upledger's, and it's not the subconscious per se; but anyway, the point is that if this inner healler/subconscious is so preemminent, why is the person sick in the first place?

Any energy healing worth his salt wouldn't deny modern medicine. I've recommended it with people that I have healed with energy. There have been some that have requested energy healing and I've sent them straight to the arms of their general practicioner for some modern medicine.
ah yes, the old "even I have sent peple to an MD" duck; sorry, accepting the norm does not substantiate the fringe

As far as these 'flair ups' you've vaguely talked of, any number of reasons could be the cause, even when the healer knows what they're doing. Where it isn't the fault of the healer or the technique, but of something else. This is why specifics are important in what those situations are.

I didn't miss the point. But, what you are suggesting here is that the flair up must have been caused by the healer, seemingly as the default position when there could have been something else that was the true cause of the flair up. If a patient is in recovery after surgury and he willingly does something that would force him to be reopened, would you automatically blame the doctor that performed the surgury or would you investigate to find out the actual cause of what went wrong? What if it was someone that snuck into recovery and did something to the patient? What then?
are you kidding? where did you learn to reason? first off, only someone with psychological problems would "willingly" do something (whatever that might be) requiring beng re-opened; and in that case no one would blame the surgeon; similarly if someone "snuck into recovery" (:confused::confused::confused:yeah, that happens ALL the time), obviously it has nothing to d with the doc...so again, your point maks no sense: when I talk about a patient having a flair-up (e.g. - an exacerbation of presenting symptoms) follwing a session because of the treatment itself, it simply shows that the power of the treatment was such that it reacted with the initial imbalance in a waay that created the flair-up; now, this may or may not be a bad thing, it may even be something the patient has to go through; but the point is that, when it happens, as a professional you know what to do about it and how to deal with a patient who may be a bit freaked out

So, imagine the number of legal motions that will fill the courts if it is brought to light just how much of an influence the energy fields of people influence/control emotions, thoughts, physical conditions, the fabric of reality itself
wow, the sky must be pretty in your world; so, you think that because someone thinks bad thoughts about me it impacts what happens, what I do, etc.? if that were the case, i think I'd be a newt or a pile of ash by now; wait, wait, let me try...did you turn into a gazelle with a pink top hat? no? strange...

Now, let's get back to the energy healing flair ups. Have you investigated what the cause could have been? Something unknowlingly attached to the energy field of the patient and the healing upset the thing, so it caused the flair up to stop the energy transfer?
please try to stay on the same planet with the rest of us; you don't need bizzare explanations for why a flair-up can happen; you do a treatment, the organism can't handle the change in the local physiology and has a generalized inflammatory response, and the person feel like cr@p for a few days - the implication is that what ever you did somewhere to get some structures moving was too much for the already out of balanced system to handle and integrate; of course, with experience, you learn what to do to avoid this, and on what type of patients you have to be more careful of this happeneing, and also what you can tell someone to d after a treat to minimize the chances (which varies from person to person)

What about instances where we see people get bullied into situations that they don't want to be in? In some, like intimidating a witness in a trial is against the law, but others aren't, such as the school yard bully. The system recognizes that such a negative influence exists in both instances, but it allows for recourse by the inflicted in only one of them. Even some things that are recognized by the system don't let the injured party get compensation.
no one said anything was perfect - but the intention is there; as for your yet again inept analogy: with the school yard bully, if there is proof of assault, the law does get involved; if it is something that is below the scope of the legal system, then the school's diciplinary system handles it, duh...

While I haven't done the specific numbers, my guess would be that it is in the 90s with zero percent for situations where I have aggrivated situations ever.
your guess? sorry, that's meaningless - if you have not been keeping track with some sort of documentation, then your recall alone is highly unreliable, especially if you have had no actual contact with the person before bestowing your healing on them, if you don't see them anymore, then how do you actually know what is ging on a year later? and if no one you treated has ever had a negative response, you are either God or clueless - oh, but wait! that's right! all the negative effets you've ever seen weren't from you, they were from something else! wht a relief...

[QUOTE=RonH;782482]The total number of people, divided by the cessation/alteration of the current situation, when there is little change, when there is no change and if the sitaution gets worse. For that last one, as I said above, I have a 0% rating.
I have no idea what you mean here, except that I'd rate you about a "0" myself as well...

cjurakpt

07-27-2007, 11:52 AM

In some situations, zero relapse. For instance, I had a temp job once installing awning, drapes and mini-blinds blah blah blah
that entire "example" was just the kind of solipsistic claptrap that keeps people like you thinking that they have some special insight into the world, when in fact they are just as relatively unimportant as everyone else...

There have even been times when someone online has specifically said that they were feeling better, having read a post I had made in regards to a TV show. They felt healthier, they said they were sitting up straighter and I hadn't even intended that they get better. They hadn't entered the conversation at that point.
so you never iintended to do anything, it wasn't in person, and they hadn't even been on-line when you were posting, but read something you wrote and contacted you to tell you that they were feeling better?!? and yet you think that you were the one responsible for that?!?!? I almost don't know what to think here...

Now, that being said, I am not responsible for anyone I have treated, intentionally or not, if they choose to return to habits that have caused them to regain something they have gotten rid of. If one were to heal the liver of a lifetime drunk, even removing the desire/addiction to drink and they choose to start drinking again like they did before, the healer is not responsible for them getting a screwed up liver again.
that is true - and I am the first one to tell all my patient's straight out that anything I suggest that they do its up to them to do it or not, I actually don't really care - my "promise" is to treat them to the best of my ability, and if they help or hinder that on their own, that's their choice, but I won't judge them; if they go back to the behaviors that created their pain, that is their right; what you are responsible for is what happens to them as a result of the actual treatment, not what they do later on that is unrelated to it

But, to cut the details down to small bits, there is always progress or none at all. The time any one has ever 'relapsed' after being treated by me is because they have chosen to go back to the way they were. It hasn't been the fault of the healing itself.
again, that's assuming you actually did anything at all - but your way of assessing and following up are so subjective and biased that you have no way of knowing what really did happen

Most of the time, it is because I got this sudden urge to help. I haven't set up a healing shop and hung up my shingle. When it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, it's been with those I'm close to and only them.
hallmark of an amateur

I've never come across a time when I thought 'this is too much for my abilities'. You can't go into any situation thinking that.
if you are playing healer, then it's fine; if you are dealing with the real world, it;s the first and foremost thing on your mind, and is what keeps you from harming someone when what they have is beyond the scope of your pratice

Are you talking consciously or subconsciously? Because that bloke online that said he was sitting up straighter is actually an atheist, I believe. What I do know of him, he doesn't believe in energy healing, I don't think.
you don't know anything about him, and if you think "stting up straighter" means anything, then you are really in trouble...

That is what's best. Being open to the energy coming into your body and healing you of what's wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. However, there have been lots of people that don't come to me specifically for that and I find out there's something wrong in passing. I don't go around broadcasting that I can heal with energy. In fact, when people ask me about metaphysical things in real life, I proclaim being an atheist, that I don't believe in psychic powers or magick or an afterlife or anything else related to that stuff. For a time, I had considered trying to get a job at a energy healing place, since I have the master level attunement for reiki, but I chose to not do that.
because that wold mean declaring outright your intention, which sets up the possibiity of failure for you - if you've never been asked directly, it's easy to come up with the idea that you helped after the fact - just forget it, I'm getting tired of this (must be the energy you are projecting at me to get me all passified...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)

And this is more evidence that I could help you better understand energy healing and how responsive energy is with the mind.
you are arrogant man - what makes you think that I a) want your "help" or b) that I even need it? dude, I think you need lots of help, but I couldn't give a hoot about whether you actually change your opinion or stop doing what you are "doing" - this whole thing is just a way of exposing to anyone who reads this what kinds of nutters are out there and how they operate!

So, that whole bit about Marx and Queensburries rules or whatever was unethical?
that's not a fight - that's a competitive venue, designed to provide entertainment; a "real" fight is when two guys in a parking lot mix it up because they want to maim each other, and will do whatever they can to win (like not actng ethically!)

So, the people that spread energy in the form of love and peace and hope and good tidings and feelings to help increase peace and harmony amongst large segments of people are sickeningly paternalistic?
no, because when they do this they simply express it without specific intent, and do not claim that because of it they are specifically healing someone with a real pathology;

If someone is knocked unconscious and dumped into a river to drown and someone jumps in to get them out, was what they did unethical when they rescued the one bonked on the head, even if they didn't have the legal right to aid in someone's health, like an EMT or an ER doc would?
as far as the good samaritan example, this is an extenuating circumstance, occuring where the rescued party is otherwise incapable of expressing their wishes; doesn't apply in your case

I'm not making generalizations. All pain meds inhibit the transmission of information from the pain nerves to the brain. Sometimes, they just lower the intensity of the level of pain the brain gets. But, that is what is happening. You are altering their mental and emotional states, regardless of which way they are being manipulated.
yes, but it is done with their consent before hand, in most cases, so they know what is being done to them;

Then, you are missing out on a more complete understanding of what's going on with energy healing, either by oneself or by someone else.
no, I've had a pretty "complete" understanding of it - that's why I'm out of it

It is crystal clear that you don't have a decent level of understanding of what's going on when it comes to energy healing. Your illusion is that you think you've got a good grasp on the subject. The choice is yours to retain the illusion.
thanks, I'll just stick with having a good grasp on reality instead...

ok, I really am done with this now

RonH

07-27-2007, 04:53 PM

well, you've basically responded with the typical types of answers that most "energy healers" I've worked with (and now it makes sense vis a vis the Reiki attunement you mentioned - "master" level, eh? so, I guess you stayed for the entire weekend...)

I can't speak for how most other energy healers speak. I don't know most of them. I speak only as I would speak. And given that you do not know how I came about any attunement or practice I have currently, the pot shot of the 'weekend wonderer' doesn't help anything in the slightest.

your answers all sound very reasoned and logical, with the exception that the entire premise from which you operate is funadamentally flawed; for example, you mention treating someone who unconcious by an EMT / ER doc as an example of ethically treating someone without their consent - sorry, it doesn't work for 2 reasons - first off, they are unable to give their consent and as it may be a matter of life or death so you can't really wait for them to wake up and give it (as opposed to the people you "treat" who could if they were asked);

So, if an energy healer came upon someone that was unconscious and there wasn't a way to get help from modern medicine, but they could use energy, that would still be unethical for the energy healer? It' a shame you would see it that way.

second, the MAJOR difference is what I;ve been saying all along: if the EMT or ER doc mess up, they are liable for that - so even when the patient is "out", they still have some measure of protection / recourse; of course, your argument is that it's all good - energy healing is "different", that it can only help or just have no effect at all - wouldn't it be nice if that was the way things really did work?

Given that you truly don't have a decent understanding of energy healing and have used as your only reference your experience with some bad situations, this view isn't unexpected.

see, when you treat "obliquely", without really doing anything, it's very easy to say that when it works it was because of what you did, but when it doesn't it was because of something else - not having to folow the rules of cause and effect you are free to shape the circumstances as they occur to your own bias

What you have also shown is your misunderstanding of what I have said earlier which is that cause and effect *are* required in energy healing.

another red flag is how you offer to help me understand when I have not asked for instruction - you seem just a little too eager to help me (and others),

I just made the offer. Sheesh. Sue me for being nice. I have no problem with you declining the offer. It wouldn't hurt my ego if you said no. Given that I have read your reply to my last messages, I still don't feel any pangs that you don't want to listen to me and further the discussion.

yet you inteestingly do not seem interersted in going through some sort of training that would allow you to work with people in a structured capacity

Except, you jump to the conclusion that I never have and think of a structured capacity involves something like the details from becoming a licensed medical professional. Like that's the only decent standard there is.

which is the typical hallmark of the amateur versus the professional: for the amateur, it's an adventure - very romantic;

Since you don't know squat about me or energy healing, you've made an appeal to authority, which is fallacious logic, combining it with name calling.

for the professional healer, it's actually very different - it's actually routine, even boring - that's what happens when you treat 8 to 10 people a day (also a little harder to get your "perfect" numbers...) who come in with real, actual sickness (sorry, your curtain-hanger example really doesn't impress in the least - try your mumbo with a baby who has chronic ear infections or an adult with fibromyalgia and see where you get);

Curtain hanger??? What are you going on about now? I understand you don't want to learn about energy healing, but this is nuts. Curtain hanger my bum.

the "skill" is then, to move past the routine, and find the spintinaity, the freshness of each person, despite the repetition: that is, finding the profound within the ordinary, as opposed to looking for the extraordinary as a means of personal entertainment - your writings ultimately reflect back on yourself as being an important part of the equation (e.g. - the "urge" to help: as a professional, I don't have that luxury - you make yourself available to those in need, and do your work for their benefit, even when you don't feel like it) - it's actually quite the opposite: the "healer" should fade out, the healing itself is what matters;

And here is where more information would be given to you, about how the energy healer physically and mentally gives of himself for the betterment of his patient, where his own thoughts and feelings can have an influence on how well the patient comes out in the end. Where most of modern medicine doesn't require that. It doesn't require the continued mental exertion, as it does for the energy healer because a purely physical object(s) is used on the patient. I would have explained further, but you have made it abundently clear that you have no interest in wanting to understand.

but overall, it's ok, because you are not hanging out a shingle and taking money for your services; like that you can spin your magic on unsuspecting people without concern because since you are neither actually doing anything any different than anyone else projecting thoughts at them in the course of their day, because they have no expectation of healing from you, it's fine; as you say, there is no difference between what you are doing and between what any random person walking by them and projecting thoughts at them is doing, so that's fine;

And your continued misunderstanding of what I have said, as well as energy healing, leads to this kind of thinking.

RonH

07-27-2007, 05:31 PM

oh wait - a few other things...
so obviously I was right then, to assume it - and from the way you spoke of thing i was able to correctly dicern you are not trained / licensed;

Except, you couldn't have known that before I said it. You jumped to that conclusion because you wanted to, so that it would fit perfectly with your view. But, since this view involves the equivilent of just knowing force equals mass times acceleration when it comes to physics, this is unsurprising.

no - the relevance is not in terms of what modality you use, but in terms of the context within which you apply it

Context. Knowing a context requires understanding what's going on and how it's being used. Because you are saying 'I saw something bad after energy healing began, energy healing must be the cause', you don't know crap about the context as it pertains to this.

wrong again - credentials assure the patient that you have had the type of training necessary to ensure their protection as much as possible (of course, someone with training can still do something wrong/inappropriate, but again, the patient has recourse)

Using credentials is an appeal to authority. Look it up. It isn't credentials, it's the facts and logic of what's being said. As an example, someone could have cheated on their medical exams to get their 'MD credentials', but that doesn't ensure the 'doctor' truly knows anything of medicine.

if you don't tell the patient anything, then you have no way of knowing if they actually got better: the entire expeience goes through your subjective filter, and your personal bias is evident, because you never talked to them before or after so you actually don't know what they think / feel

So, instead of addressing the fact that conscious awareness is required for a placebo effect, you move on to me. There is a way to tell. Did you ever think that talking to them could work? You can try observing their behavior and interactions with others. You stop reading reports and really look at people.

again, all things ith power can either harm or heal depending on how they are used, no exceptions

right, because that's the world of free lunches - it's all good, the universe will take care of thing; total BS

Once again, you treat energy healing, as if it was modern science, that it would act the same way. I keep telling you it's not, but you don't want to listen.

it's funny, you keep repeating this stuff like it's real, like these little conveninet beliefs have some basis in reality; anyway, the Inner Physician is not my term, it's John Upledger's, and it's not the subconscious per se; but anyway, the point is that if this inner healler/subconscious is so preemminent, why is the person sick in the first place?

[face palm]

Are you kidding me? Okay. I point it out to you again and I'll even make it bold.

"If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."

There's a reason why the whole thing is in bold. The whole thing answers your bloody question.

are you kidding? where did you learn to reason? first off, only someone with psychological problems would "willingly" do something (whatever that might be) requiring beng re-opened; and in that case no one would blame the surgeon; similarly if someone "snuck into recovery" (:confused::confused::confused:yeah, that happens ALL the time), obviously it has nothing to d with the doc...so again, your point maks no sense: when I talk about a patient having a flair-up (e.g. - an exacerbation of presenting symptoms) follwing a session because of the treatment itself, it simply shows that the power of the treatment was such that it reacted with the initial imbalance in a waay that created the flair-up; now, this may or may not be a bad thing, it may even be something the patient has to go through; but the point is that, when it happens, as a professional you know what to do about it and how to deal with a patient who may be a bit freaked out

Oh, brother. With the energy healing examples you are using as evidence the energy healing has a strong chance of causing flair ups, you have never provided any information about you trying to find out what was the cause. All you've done is blame the energy healer. I gave an example where it wasn't the doc's fault, but something else was. Regardless of how degranged someone would be required to be, there can be someone like that and that situation can happen. So, stop acting like 'oh, that probably will never happen, so its a bad argument'. And not all medical professionals are good therapists at treating the freaked out people.

wow, the sky must be pretty in your world; so, you think that because someone thinks bad thoughts about me it impacts what happens, what I do, etc.? if that were the case, i think I'd be a newt or a pile of ash by now; wait, wait, let me try...did you turn into a gazelle with a pink top hat? no? strange...

And this is the part of energy work that you have no interest in understanding how things work, so you pass it off as BS.

please try to stay on the same planet with the rest of us; you don't need bizzare explanations for why a flair-up can happen; you do a treatment, the organism can't handle the change in the local physiology and has a generalized inflammatory response, and the person feel like cr@p for a few days - the implication is that what ever you did somewhere to get some structures moving was too much for the already out of balanced system to handle and integrate; of course, with experience, you learn what to do to avoid this, and on what type of patients you have to be more careful of this happeneing, and also what you can tell someone to d after a treat to minimize the chances (which varies from person to person)

I would do another face palm, but I've had to do so many already it isn't even funny. Here is another point I had brought up previously of the cause not being the technique/application done, but something else, but you've reached a point where you don't give anymore. It's always the energy healer's fault. No ifs, ands or buts for you...regardless of whatever else might be involved. Yet, you don't hold medical docs to the same standard. Double standards are also fallcious logic.

no one said anything was perfect - but the intention is there; as for your yet again inept analogy: with the school yard bully, if there is proof of assault, the law does get involved; if it is something that is below the scope of the legal system, then the school's diciplinary system handles it, duh...

Except, there are even limits to what schools can do. The analogy still stands because it was to show that there are things recognized as real by the legal system, but still don't do anything about. You have tried to shift the goal post, which is fallacious logic.

your guess? sorry, that's meaningless - if you have not been keeping track with some sort of documentation, then your recall alone is highly unreliable

Wrong again, you don't know my memory.

, especially if you have had no actual contact with the person before bestowing your healing on them, if you don't see them anymore, then how do you actually know what is ging on a year later? and if no one you treated has ever had a negative response, you are either God or clueless - oh, but wait! that's right! all the negative effets you've ever seen weren't from you, they were from something else! wht a relief...

A gross and deliberate misrepresentation of what I have previous written. Another fallcious logic use.

I have no idea what you mean here, except that I'd rate you about a "0" myself as well...

What I had written was in plan english. Lying doesn't help you. More fallcious logic.

RonH

07-27-2007, 05:56 PM

that entire "example" was just the kind of solipsistic claptrap that keeps people like you thinking that they have some special insight into the world, when in fact they are just as relatively unimportant as everyone else...

Everyone is important. Just because you want to whine and moan and complain about people doesn't mean everyone else should.

so you never iintended to do anything, it wasn't in person, and they hadn't even been on-line when you were posting, but read something you wrote and contacted you to tell you that they were feeling better?!? and yet you think that you were the one responsible for that?!?!? I almost don't know what to think here...

He said it was because he knew I was involved with the discussion and the feeling increased the more he read my posting. I would begin to also give you a basic lesson on personal energy imprinting on objects, which can include messages posted online and how he was absorbing the leftover energy I had given to that post and how this is an ancient concept in mysticism, but you have no desire to learn anything about that.

again, that's assuming you actually did anything at all - but your way of assessing and following up are so subjective and biased that you have no way of knowing what really did happen

This is funny haha, since you don't know anything about energy healing.

hallmark of an amateur

if you are playing healer, then it's fine; if you are dealing with the real world, it;s the first and foremost thing on your mind, and is what keeps you from harming someone when what they have is beyond the scope of your pratice

you don't know anything about him, and if you think "stting up straighter" means anything, then you are really in trouble...

The latest thing you have been wrong on this topic/discussion, which has been everything. Explaining at this point would be a waste of time.

because that wold mean declaring outright your intention, which sets up the possibiity of failure for you - if you've never been asked directly, it's easy to come up with the idea that you helped after the fact - just forget it, I'm getting tired of this (must be the energy you are projecting at me to get me all passified...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)

All a verbal declaration would do is strengthen the energy work. There is so much about this topic you don't understand.

you are arrogant man - what makes you think that I a) want your "help" or b) that I even need it?

It isn't arrogance when you offer someone assistance, especially when you were just being nice and there was nothing else behind the offer.

dude, I think you need lots of help, but I couldn't give a hoot about whether you actually change your opinion or stop doing what you are "doing" - this whole thing is just a way of exposing to anyone who reads this what kinds of nutters are out there and how they operate!

And what you've done is try to use fallacious logic to be disrespectful and misrepresent things you don't understand.

no, because when they do this they simply express it without specific intent, and do not claim that because of it they are specifically healing someone with a real pathology;

I feel the need to do it now.

[face palm]

as far as the good samaritan example, this is an extenuating circumstance, occuring where the rescued party is otherwise incapable of expressing their wishes; doesn't apply in your case

And again.

[face palm]

yes, but it is done with their consent before hand, in most cases, so they know what is being done to them;

And it is done without their consent when they're unconscious.

cjurakpt

07-27-2007, 07:56 PM

ugh - it's like a train wreck - I can't seem to look away

the pot shot of the 'weekend wonderer' doesn't help anything in the slightest.
ok, so how long was the "master" level training / attunement?

So, if an energy healer came upon someone that was unconscious and there wasn't a way to get help from modern medicine, but they could use energy, that would still be unethical for the energy healer? It' a shame you would see it that way.
no, that's not what I mean at all; what I mean is that regardless of the modality you use, it is always preferable to get consent; if you can't get it, then it is due to extenuating life/death situations; regardless of if you can or can't get it, if you screw something up, then you should be held accountable

Given that you truly don't have a decent understanding of energy healing and have used as your only reference your experience with some bad situations, this view isn't unexpected.
where did I say that I have only had "bad" experiences? actually I've had some amazing experiences both receiving it and doing it; remember, my main contention is not about energy healing per se: it's about the context of how it's delivered, the responsibility/accountability of the practitioner, the differences between amateurs and professionals in this regard and having a clear understanding of what is going on when you do do that sort of thing;

What you have also shown is your misunderstanding of what I have said earlier which is that cause and effect *are* required in energy healing.
if someone walks into your clinic with acute neck pain and you apply energy healing, will they walk out in 15 mintues with no pain? that's cause and effect

I just made the offer. Sheesh. Sue me for being nice. I have no problem with you declining the offer. It wouldn't hurt my ego if you said no. Given that I have read your reply to my last messages, I still don't feel any pangs that you don't want to listen to me and further the discussion.
good with that

Except, you jump to the conclusion that I never have and think of a structured capacity involves something like the details from becoming a licensed medical professional. Like that's the only decent standard there is.
so what is another "standard"?

Since you don't know squat about me or energy healing, you've made an appeal to authority, which is fallacious logic, combining it with name calling.
calling some one an amateur is not an insult / name calling - it's what you are: you do not do this professionally, you do it because it is of interest to you; you are not held to the same standards as a professional, so what else can you be called?

Curtain hanger??? What are you going on about now? I understand you don't want to learn about energy healing, but this is nuts. Curtain hanger my bum.
whatever - the story about the guy hanging drapes / curtains / whatever

And here is where more information would be given to you, about how the energy healer physically and mentally gives of himself for the betterment of his patient, where his own thoughts and feelings can have an influence on how well the patient comes out in the end. Where most of modern medicine doesn't require that. It doesn't require the continued mental exertion, as it does for the energy healer because a purely physical object(s) is used on the patient. I would have explained further, but you have made it abundently clear that you have no interest in wanting to understand.
no matter what you do, you give of yourself; if I'm sweating my balls off trying to take someone through a full-body unwinding, I am giving of myself; if I am trying to set up a difficult adjustment, that is giving; but there is also a limit, because going beyond that, you can flow into the other person; what's mine is mine, what;s yours is yours, and that's how it stays (of course, fundamentally that is an artifiact, but this is not to confuse the relative with the absolute)

Except, you couldn't have known that before I said it. You jumped to that conclusion because you wanted to, so that it would fit perfectly with your view. But, since this view involves the equivilent of just knowing force equals mass times acceleration when it comes to physics, this is unsurprising.
it's very simple, so try to follow: you made some initial comments; I replied stating that, based on those comments you did not strike me as having any training / license as a healthcare professional; you wrote back saying how can I know that? I said it was because of the way you made the initial comment, and asked you if you were in fact one; you replied you weren't; I said that basically I was right the first time - so I didn't say anything before you - you made the first comment initially, and I made an assumption based on that initial comment

Context. Knowing a context requires understanding what's going on and how it's being used. Because you are saying 'I saw something bad after energy healing began, energy healing must be the cause', you don't know crap about the context as it pertains to this.
as I said before, I have seen both good and bad; which is reasonable - and which is why I believe that no matter what type of healing you do, you need to be prepared to deal with potentially negative outcomes

Using credentials is an appeal to authority. Look it up. It isn't credentials, it's the facts and logic of what's being said. As an example, someone could have cheated on their medical exams to get their 'MD credentials', but that doesn't ensure the 'doctor' truly knows anything of medicine.
it's all word-play; it's not just "appeal to authority" - it's recognition of extensive and intensive training and supervivion during that training and testing to get that credential; you have no idea about what it takes to become an MD if you think that someone could just cheat on med school exams and get licensed...

So, instead of addressing the fact that conscious awareness is required for a placebo effect, you move on to me. There is a way to tell. Did you ever think that talking to them could work? You can try observing their behavior and interactions with others. You stop reading reports and really look at people.
it's funny - I almost never read reports first - in fact, I get most of my information about patients in the first 15 seconds or so by observing the person sitting as they wait in the waiting room, shaking their hand, listening to their voice, checking the eyes, watching the breath, watching them walk to the exam room, and also where they choose to sit in the room when they go in (tells me a lot about how receptive or controlling the tend to be - the ones who go over and sit in my chair are typically the ones who have been difficult...)- it's all extremely valuable, and pretty much right most of the time; HOWEVER, i then put that aside temporarilly, and go through a detailed history, and then various sorts of more standardized testing to confirm things from a more objective perspective by taking my subjectivity out of it momentarilly; also, all the stuff I observed I use as a guideline, meaning that if someone shows me something contrary to what i predicted, I don't ignore it;
as far as placebo, placebo effect is possible even with non-verbal communication - meaning that I readily admit that there is something that can occur between people where one person can influence the other without a word being spoken - and it does involve energy - but it's not according to some contrived theories that involve the system "taking what it needs" and all that; my sense is that it has to do with neurochemical responses, something like a phermonal effect, as well as non-conscious processing of body language

Once again, you treat energy healing, as if it was modern science, that it would act the same way. I keep telling you it's not, but you don't want to listen.
because if it did, then you;d have to face the fact that there is, again, no such thing as a free lunch...

[face palm]
#1

Are you kidding me? Okay. I point it out to you again and I'll even make it bold.
"If chi is given to heal one's physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies."
There's a reason why the whole thing is in bold. The whole thing answers your bloody question.
you know, when you explain something to someone and you don't speak the same language as them, repeating the same thing at a higher volume typically doesn't work (I should know - my first Chinese teacher only spoke Cantonese - that was fun...); anyway, I disagree with the premise

cjurakpt

07-27-2007, 07:57 PM

Oh, brother. With the energy healing examples you are using as evidence the energy healing has a strong chance of causing flair ups, you have never provided any information about you trying to find out what was the cause. All you've done is blame the energy healer. I gave an example where it wasn't the doc's fault, but something else was. Regardless of how degranged someone would be required to be, there can be someone like that and that situation can happen. So, stop acting like 'oh, that probably will never happen, so its a bad argument'. And not all medical professionals are good therapists at treating the freaked out people.
I gave examples from manual therapy, not energy healing; as for blaming the energy healer and not the doctor, let me try one more time: I am saying that anyone (doctor, healer etc.) doing anything (surgery, energy work, etc.) always has the possibility of causing a negative reaction by what they are doing; there is nothing that, if it has power, can only help and not have the potential to harm; this perspective is critical if you are to act respectfully and responsibly with anyone you work with, and i will never not be of that opinion - it's right up there with never becoming involved with your patients outside of the professional relationship, either socially, financially, romantically, etc. (some of the things I have seen my own colleagues do I find reprehensible - so I am not just bashing energy healers pro forma); and I do agree with you that many medical professionals are not at all good at dealing with negative consequences, laregely because it bruises their egos to have to admit they might have done something wrong

I would do another face palm, but I've had to do so many already it isn't even funny.
actually only one up to this point...

Here is another point I had brought up previously of the cause not being the technique/application done, but something else, but you've reached a point where you don't give anymore. It's always the energy healer's fault. No ifs, ands or buts for you...regardless of whatever else might be involved. Yet, you don't hold medical docs to the same standard. Double standards are also fallcious logic.
again, i don't know where you get this - you are the one refusing to admit that the energy healer ever can be "at fault", so it seems - I am saying the ANYONE can be at fault, and most therefore be able to handle it appropriately

Except, there are even limits to what schools can do. The analogy still stands because it was to show that there are things recognized as real by the legal system, but still don't do anything about. You have tried to shift the goal post, which is fallacious logic.
that's because, again, the legal system doesn't need to get involved in everything - in the school yeard, the "limited" ower of the school is typicall sufficient to handle bullies, because usually what they do is not of sufficient significance to wrrant the type of consequences that the legal system can impose; however, when the school reaches its limit, then the legal system takes over; in the case of energy healing, neither the healthcare system nor the legal system recognize it, so if you do it to someone and they have a negative effect, if they went to the legal system and explained that they were harmed by your energy projection treatment or whatever you do, they would be laughed out of court; yet you maintain that it is real, so then, if an energy healer did at some point create a negative effect, what resources would the client have available to seek restitution? I know you maintain that the nature of your treatment is such that any negative effects are not because of what you do per se (which I still maintain is shirking one's inherent responsibilty for what one does, but nevermind that for the moment), but it's conceivable that others are practicing different types of energy healing, and some approahes may have this effect - so, what should the patient do if they have no recourse available along the typical channels?

Wrong again, you don't know my memory.
it's not about your memory per se - it's about human memory in general which is highly selective, and we tend to remember things the way we want for them to have happened; now, I do agree you can have very good recall with patients - I may not remember someone's name 5 years later, but they are usually surprised when I can recall what they came to me for, and often specifically what I did with them; however, it's not a hundred percent - in fact, because I am typically so accurate, I get used to assuming I have better recall than I do, so I wouldn't even think that I was wrong when I am; anyway, this is why we keep writtne notes, to prevent that from happening...

A gross and deliberate misrepresentation of what I have previous written. Another fallcious logic use.
well then, I must be unclear: so, is it possible that you might create a negative effect or not? have you ever or have you never?

What I had written was in plan english. Lying doesn't help you. More fallcious logic.
what you wrote was some strange equation about how you came up with your success rate; it made no sense to me - that's no lie

Everyone is important. Just because you want to whine and moan and complain about people doesn't mean everyone else should.
no, no one is important - people like to think that they are, but this is purely a defense mechanism on the part of the ego; it has nothing to do with complaining either - in 100,000 years, none of this will be remembered - how important can it / us be if that is the case? no, it is people's sense of self-importance that really has created the suffering in the world - unfortunately, we are all subject to it (although a good dose of Krishnamurti often can help deflate this)

He said it was because he knew I was involved with the discussion and the feeling increased the more he read my posting. I would begin to also give you a basic lesson on personal energy imprinting on objects, which can include messages posted online and how he was absorbing the leftover energy I had given to that post and how this is an ancient concept in mysticism, but you have no desire to learn anything about that.
I am well aware of this "phennomenon" - let's try it under controlled circumstances and see how real it is though: e.g - have people sit in front of an object that you have imprinted and some people sit in front of one that is not; tell both that the object is imprinted and see if there is any diffeence betwen the two groups; repeat with same set up except tell patient objects are not imprinted; according to what you say, I believe, the people dealing with imprinted objects should always have a better effect than those sitting in front of uniprinted ones, regardless of what they are lead to believe; if not, then it has nothing to do with the object...

This is funny haha, since you don't know anything about energy healing.
you keep saying that - it's interesting, because according to the people I've studied with, I actually know quite a bit - but because I disagree with your perspective on it, you say that I don't...

The latest thing you have been wrong on this topic/discussion, which has been everything. Explaining at this point would be a waste of time.
yet you press on...

All a verbal declaration would do is strengthen the energy work. There is so much about this topic you don't understand.
dito for you re: subjectivity...

It isn't arrogance when you offer someone assistance, especially when you were just being nice and there was nothing else behind the offer.
search your feelings...

And what you've done is try to use fallacious logic to be disrespectful and misrepresent things you don't understand.
I understand the difference between relatively subjective and relatively objective, which is pretty much what this boils down to...

I feel the need to do it now.
[face palm]
#2

And again.
[face palm]
#3
oh, BTW - I'm not sure what this actually means - are you telling me to talk to the hand, or actually slapping me, or are you trying to project energy at me to help me to try to understand? anyway, as long as it makes you feel good, please go ahead...

And it is done without their consent when they're unconscious.
again, and let's try this real slow now, when a medical professional comes across someone who is unresponsive, they do what they do because it is assumed that to do nothing would allow the person to die; consent, logically, becomes unimportant, because the reasonable assumption is that, were the person able, they would ask to have everything possible done to save their life (which is why if you have a DNR request, it is reviewed extensively before it is approved); furthermore, what they are allowed to do without consent is limited only to life saving procedures; and if they screw up somewhere, they are legally liable; in your situation, you are dealing with conscious people who, if asked would tell you that they either wanted you to do something to / for them, or not; so if in fact you are actually doing something that could effect them and it is without their direct and conscious consent (regardless of what you think that their subconscious might be telling you), that, to me is unethical

RonH

07-28-2007, 06:09 AM

ugh - it's like a train wreck - I can't seem to look away
ok, so how long was the "master" level training / attunement?

The attunement itself took about 15 minuntes. The training has never stopped and wouldn't. Just as it wouldn't with being an MD.

[quote]no, that's not what I mean at all; what I mean is that regardless of the modality you use, it is always preferable to get consent; if you can't get it, then it is due to extenuating life/death situations; regardless of if you can or can't get it, if you screw something up, then you should be held accountable

This is a spot where actually *knowing* what energy healing involves would be good.

where did I say that I have only had "bad" experiences? actually I've had some amazing experiences both receiving it and doing it; remember, my main contention is not about energy healing per se: it's about the context of how it's delivered, the responsibility/accountability of the practitioner, the differences between amateurs and professionals in this regard and having a clear understanding of what is going on when you do do that sort of thing;

It's all you've been moaning about. You say chi is a metaphor, but say there might be some energy field interaction that isn't totally understood and even bringing up pheremons. Yet, when I offer to explain with no other reason than to be nice, you've shown no interest in understanding.

And...

[face palm]

You've done energy healing? You don't even know what's involved and *you* say I'm lucky I haven't hurt anyone? Good lord. You haven't been trained and you're saying that *I* don't know what I'm talking about?

[face palm again]

if someone walks into your clinic with acute neck pain and you apply energy healing, will they walk out in 15 mintues with no pain? that's cause and effect

When it comes to cause and effect in energy healing, that is the most superficial involvement for an example. I would go further in depth, but you really have no interest in understanding.

so what is another "standard"?

Oh, *now* you want to undertand something that you've admitted you've done without any real training and all your pot shots and misrepresentations over the last couple of days? Good grief.

calling some one an amateur is not an insult / name calling - it's what you are: you do not do this professionally, you do it because it is of interest to you; you are not held to the same standards as a professional, so what else can you be called?

Except, you have no basis for the extent that I've done it when I got the urge. I spent a lot of time working with the sick and injured on the basis of a single urge catalyzing my working with them. It isn't an urge just from seeing something as I pass by on the street.

whatever - the story about the guy hanging drapes / curtains / whatever

Go ask any knowledgable energy healer, especially a reiki one, and ask them about energy healing removing blockages that can involve suppressed emotions. How they will come to the surface and how they can sometimes be let out in intensity, like a running rapid.

it's very simple, so try to follow: you made some initial comments; I replied stating that, based on those comments you did not strike me as having any training / license as a healthcare professional; you wrote back saying how can I know that? I said it was because of the way you made the initial comment, and asked you if you were in fact one; you replied you weren't; I said that basically I was right the first time - so I didn't say anything before you - you made the first comment initially, and I made an assumption based on that initial comment

If you wanna go simple, I can do that, too. The fact remains that someone that is a medical professional or not could answer the same way. What you made was a hasty generalization before you knew all the facts. Whether your hasty generalization was true or not is irrelevent. It doesn't negate the fact you made a hasty generalization.

it's all word-play; it's not just "appeal to authority" - it's recognition of extensive and intensive training and supervivion during that training and testing to get that credential; you have no idea about what it takes to become an MD if you think that someone could just cheat on med school exams and get licensed...

And people that have been found to practice without ever having a license hadn't stopped them from learning medicine.

it's funny - I almost never read reports first - in fact, I get most of my information about patients in the first 15 seconds or so by observing the person...

Then, you should already understand. So, your statement was moot.

as far as placebo, placebo effect is possible even with non-verbal communication - meaning that I readily admit that there is something that can occur between people where one person can influence the other without a word being spoken - and it does involve energy - but it's not according to some contrived theories that involve the system "taking what it needs" and all that; my sense is that it has to do with neurochemical responses, something like a phermonal effect, as well as non-conscious processing of body language

And I keep seeing that you want to try to hold onto the idea that you're putting forth, saying it might be pheremonal, but you have no desire to understand the knowledge of systems that have been working with energy healing. Even when the offer is made, you shoo it away. You want to be objective about it, but you aren't willing to do any research into the knowledge that has let people develop energy healing methods up to today.

because if it did, then you;d have to face the fact that there is, again, no such thing as a free lunch...

This coming from a bloke that doesn't want to even research the knowledge of energy healing paths.

RonH

07-28-2007, 06:55 AM

I gave examples from manual therapy, not energy healing; as for blaming the energy healer and not the doctor, let me try one more time: I am saying that anyone (doctor, healer etc.) doing anything (surgery, energy work, etc.) always has the possibility of causing a negative reaction by what they are doing; there is nothing that, if it has power, can only help and not have the potential to harm; this perspective is critical if you are to act respectfully and responsibly with anyone you work with, and i will never not be of that opinion - it's right up there with never becoming involved with your patients outside of the professional relationship, either socially, financially, romantically, etc. (some of the things I have seen my own colleagues do I find reprehensible - so I am not just bashing energy healers pro forma); and I do agree with you that many medical professionals are not at all good at dealing with negative consequences, laregely because it bruises their egos to have to admit they might have done something wrong

And I have the feeling that if I came right out and said why this wouldn't happen when you are trying to heal someone, it wouldn't get through.

actually only one up to this point...

There are the ones I didn't write down.

again, i don't know where you get this - you are the one refusing to admit that the energy healer ever can be "at fault", so it seems - I am saying the ANYONE can be at fault, and most therefore be able to handle it appropriately

Okay, the spirit has moved me to give you a little taste of the specific knowledge I have been talking about this whole time I had originally offered, but now am in no way inclined to give you any more.

Energy manipulation is not the same as energy healing. Because there are mental and emotional issues involved with trying to heal someone, without the knowledge and training, it isn't 'energy healing'. It's just 'energy manipulation'. *You* have taken the default position that in the cases you saw as flair ups, that it was the healer at fault, but you indirectly admit that you didn't care about trying to find out if it was the one doing the procedure in those cases or if it was something else. I gave the example of a patient harming themselves after surgury or someone coming into recovery after surgury and messing with the patient, but you dismissed that out of hand by saying it was a remote possibility.

I said understanding context means you understand what is going on. You have yet to show you have the desire to understand that.

that's because, again, the legal system doesn't need to get involved in everything

Whether it needs to get involved is irrelevent. The matter was if it did anything for things it recognized as being real.

yet you maintain that it is real, so then, if an energy healer did at some point create a negative effect, what resources would the client have available to seek restitution?

There are other extralegal means. They've already gone outside the legal system to have things done to themselves that are not approved by groups, like the FDA or the AMA. There are those energy users that are mercenary types. There's the actual legit websites online that deal with revenge and righting wrongs and stuff. There is ceremonial magick, but it's best if they already have had experience with it. Candle magick is good for beginners. Chaos/sigil magick is, too, but these 3 shouldn't be used lightly. We're moving into areas in this thread that deal with things that can't really be classified in a legal system, especially when the ideas are taken to its ultimate expression. The example of the judge, accuser and accused would be one such example.

I know you maintain that the nature of your treatment is such that any negative effects are not because of what you do per se (which I still maintain is shirking one's inherent responsibilty for what one does, but nevermind that for the moment), but it's conceivable that others are practicing different types of energy healing, and some approaches may have this effect - so, what should the patient do if they have no recourse available along the typical channels?

It has nothing to do with shirking. I said already it has everything to do with knowledge.

it's not about your memory per se - it's about human memory in general which is highly selective, and we tend to remember things the way we want for them to have happened;

That is on everyone else that doesn't have my noggin.

have you ever or have you never?

Energy manipulation, yes. Energy healing, no.

what you wrote was some strange equation about how you came up with your success rate; it made no sense to me - that's no lie

Oh, come off it. Success rate, yeah or nay. Was there a change, yeah or nay. No change, yeah or nay. Did it get worse, yeah or nay.

I am well aware of this "phennomenon" - let's try it under controlled circumstances and see how real it is though: e.g - have people sit in front of an object that you have imprinted and some people sit in front of one that is not; tell both that the object is imprinted and see if there is any diffeence betwen the two groups; repeat with same set up except tell patient objects are not imprinted; according to what you say, I believe, the people dealing with imprinted objects should always have a better effect than those sitting in front of uniprinted ones, regardless of what they are lead to believe; if not, then it has nothing to do with the object...

If wishes were horses...

Not everyone has the same reactions. Each person has their own level of sensitivity to such things. Many don't even know they have certain abilities. How do vision tests work? The doc uses the assumed training and knowledge that comes from learning letters and numbers. If the patient doesn't have that, the best they can do is say whether something's clear or not. There's also the question of just how open the test subjects are to the idea behind the test.

you keep saying that - it's interesting, because according to the people I've studied with, I actually know quite a bit - but because I disagree with your perspective on it, you say that I don't...

So, now you say you have studied energy healing, but before you hadn't. You need to pick one and stay with it.

I understand the difference between relatively subjective and relatively objective, which is pretty much what this boils down to...

No, it comes down to knowledge, which you have continued to demonstrate that you lack when it comes to energy healing.

oh, BTW - I'm not sure what this actually means - are you telling me to talk to the hand, or actually slapping me, or are you trying to project energy at me to help me to try to understand? anyway, as long as it makes you feel good, please go ahead...

The front of your face is lightly slapped by your own hand.

again, and let's try this real slow now, when a medical professional comes across someone who is unresponsive, they do what they do because it is assumed that to do nothing would allow the person to die

Irrelevent.

cjurakpt

07-28-2007, 10:04 AM

It's all you've been moaning about. You say chi is a metaphor, but say there might be some energy field interaction that isn't totally understood and even bringing up pheremons.
my point is that it isn't completely understood, but I don't believe in the explanation that you or other energy healers give either, which is that it exists as a quantifiable entity, when it is actually a subjective desscriptor; that's it in a nutshell for me

Yet, when I offer to explain with no other reason than to be nice, you've shown no interest in understanding.
you took it upon yourself to offer me instruction without me requesting it - so I declined your offer as such, as I am not interested in it from that perspective; if you have info to share, you don't need to preface it with any sort of offers, just say what is on your mind and be done with it; likewise, if you don't feel like sharing anything, don't; either way, I really don't care what you do ultimately; if you share something, I will comment on it according to my own beliefs, but if you don't I won't feel the less for it, that's for certain

You've done energy healing? You don't even know what's involved and *you* say I'm lucky I haven't hurt anyone? Good lord. You haven't been trained and you're saying that *I* don't know what I'm talking about?
what makes you think I have had no training in it? where did I ever state that?

When it comes to cause and effect in energy healing, that is the most superficial involvement for an example. I would go further in depth, but you really have no interest in understanding.
as I said, if you feel the need to go further into depth to make your point go ahead; if you don't want to that's fine; this whole "you don't want to understand me so I'm not going to say anything" schtick is getting lame - if you really felt that way, that I am not going to listen or understand, why do you bother to keep responding to anything at all?

Oh, *now* you want to undertand something that you've admitted you've done without any real training and all your pot shots and misrepresentations over the last couple of days? Good grief.
nope - my level of understnaing (or lack thereof according to you) suits me just fine: you said that it wasn't the only standard; I know of no other that is valid; so I asked in a somewhat offhanded semi-sarcastic manner (should have used one of these, I guess: :rolleyes: ); anyway, if you feel like telling me about another one, fine; if not, then don't; but don't try to paint it as some sort of change of heart or capitulation on my part

Except, you have no basis for the extent that I've done it when I got the urge. I spent a lot of time working with the sick and injured on the basis of a single urge catalyzing my working with them. It isn't an urge just from seeing something as I pass by on the street.
so, how often do you get this urge? how many people have you actually worked with (a rough number is fine: mine would be some where in the 1,500 range, I'm guestimating, just for non-competitive comparison, so you have an idea of what sized of data base I'm drawing from)

Go ask any knowledgable energy healer, especially a reiki one, and ask them about energy healing removing blockages that can involve suppressed emotions. How they will come to the surface and how they can sometimes be let out in intensity, like a running rapid.
I am well acquainted with this phennomenon, and a fair amount of my initial post-graduate training focused on just such this sort of thing; you can have this effect from hands on or hands off work; but I don't see this as much any more, because it is not the way in which I am interested in working per se - what I have taken from it is the ability to deal appropriately with this sort of thing if it happens spontaneously, as opposed to trying to produce that sort of effect like others do; IME, either path can be fine in certain cases, whereas in others you need to do either structural or cognitive/emotional first / primarilly to work things out - obviously I deal only with the former in those sorts of cases

If you wanna go simple, I can do that, too. The fact remains that someone that is a medical professional or not could answer the same way. What you made was a hasty generalization before you knew all the facts. Whether your hasty generalization was true or not is irrelevent. It doesn't negate the fact you made a hasty generalization.
my point was, someone without medical training probably wouldn't have made the statement that way - hence, if you go back and read my earlier posts, my caveat that I would have been surprised if you were;

And people that have been found to practice without ever having a license hadn't stopped them from learning medicine.
you can learn all you want; practicing is another story

Then, you should already understand. So, your statement was moot.
no, my point is to show that despite my own "intuitive" approach, I always take another look from a more standardized perspective: they temper each other;

And I keep seeing that you want to try to hold onto the idea that you're putting forth, saying it might be pheremonal, but you have no desire to understand the knowledge of systems that have been working with energy healing. Even when the offer is made, you shoo it away. You want to be objective about it, but you aren't willing to do any research into the knowledge that has let people develop energy healing methods up to today.
I have researched it , I have studied it; and I've moved past it;

This coming from a bloke that doesn't want to even research the knowledge of energy healing paths.
again, have, did, moved on

And I have the feeling that if I came right out and said why this wouldn't happen when you are trying to heal someone, it wouldn't get through.
again with the carrot dangling - man, if you wanna say it, say it; if you don't that's fine - what difference does it make to you whether I want to understand or not?

Okay, the spirit has moved me to give you a little taste of the specific knowledge I have been talking about this whole time I had originally offered, but now am in no way inclined to give you any more.
wow - must be the planets in alignment...

Energy manipulation is not the same as energy healing. Because there are mental and emotional issues involved with trying to heal someone, without the knowledge and training, it isn't 'energy healing'. It's just 'energy manipulation'. *You* have taken the default position that in the cases you saw as flair ups, that it was the healer at fault, but you indirectly admit that you didn't care about trying to find out if it was the one doing the procedure in those cases or if it was something else. I gave the example of a patient harming themselves after surgury or someone coming into recovery after surgury and messing with the patient, but you dismissed that out of hand by saying it was a remote possibility.
I can think of about 2 or 3 people I used to know / work with who hold that perspective, so nothing revelatory about it; let me be simple: person comes for treatment; person receives treatment; person has bad response to treatment (e.g. - flair up of initial presenting symptoms and / or generalized inflammatory response - the two most common things I have seen); therefore, something about the treatment caused the response; now, maybe it was something therapist / healer did "wrong", maybe it's a healing crisis, maybe it's something else - but unless you can know that for sure, to me the responsibility is on the person giving the treament - if you can't figure it out, then my default position is that the healer has to take the responsibility; BTW, if it's the patient intentionally harming themselves afterwards or someone doing it to them obviously that is not due to the treatment itself (unless the treament induced some sort of serious psychosis in the former case, but I've never seen anything like that), so it's not something I am even considering

There are other extralegal means. They've already gone outside the legal system to have things done to themselves that are not approved by groups, like the FDA or the AMA. There are those energy users that are mercenary types. There's the actual legit websites online that deal with revenge and righting wrongs and stuff. There is ceremonial magick, but it's best if they already have had experience with it. Candle magick is good for beginners. Chaos/sigil magick is, too, but these 3 shouldn't be used lightly. We're moving into areas in this thread that deal with things that can't really be classified in a legal system, especially when the ideas are taken to its ultimate expression. The example of the judge, accuser and accused would be one such example.
so it' sort of like shammanic justice, huh? :rolleyes: if that was how the world really worked, that would be interesting (so i guess it's a good thing I was given all those shammanic protection sygils a few years back...)

cjurakpt

07-28-2007, 10:04 AM

That is on everyone else that doesn't have my noggin.
which I imagine constitutes a good number of people in this world...

Oh, come off it. Success rate, yeah or nay. Was there a change, yeah or nay. No change, yeah or nay. Did it get worse, yeah or nay.
ummm...okaaay

If wishes were horses...
we'd all be standing knee deep in doo...

So, now you say you have studied energy healing, but before you hadn't. You need to pick one and stay with it.
please show me where I wrote that I had not studied it? now who's assuming? just because I have a contrarian opinion on it doesn't mean I know noting about it or have had no experience with it (including spending way too much time hangning out with freaky chicks from Barbara Brennan's school - but they were cute...)

No, it comes down to knowledge, which you have continued to demonstrate that you lack when it comes to energy healing.
disagreement with your perspective on it = lack of knowledge...gotcha

The front of your face is lightly slapped by your own hand.
no wonder it feels so nice and frothy...

anyway, look man - you're obviously going to keep doing your thing (it's apparant that no matter what I say, it's not going to sake your belief significantly, so no point in beating a dead gazelle); so be it - I don't agree with your perspective or methods really, but it sounds like that what you are doing does not create negative responses (I'll just take your word on it); to me, that means it's not really doing anything, and that the positive responses you get are due to a diffeent set of phennomenon then what you think, but I guess the bottom line is that people are, according to you, feeling better; and your heart seems to be sort of in the right place, that is, you are doing this ostensibly to help people and you are onot advertising or making claims about what you do as a means to bring in patients - however, I would just encourage you, if you are going to do it in some sort of venue like a center and hang out a shingle to go get licensed in some capacity - usually a massage therapist license if the easiest to obtain and most massage schools are pretty receptive to the sort of stuff you are talking about; like that, you can still hold your subjective beliefs, but at least you'll be trained in how to handle practice and ethical issues from a mainstream pespective, which I promise you, really are designed from the perspective of patient protection in a way that is transparant

anyway, good luck

RonH

07-28-2007, 11:16 AM

my point is that it isn't completely understood, but I don't believe in the explanation that you or other energy healers give either, which is that it exists as a quantifiable entity, when it is actually a subjective desscriptor; that's it in a nutshell for me

And this is why you will always never understand energy healing. You keep thinking of it as a figurative thing and always dismissing the literal, outside of anything related to the material body.

you took it upon yourself to offer me instruction without me requesting it - so I declined your offer as such, as I am not interested in it from that perspective; if you have info to share, you don't need to preface it with any sort of offers, just say what is on your mind and be done with it;

I made the offer because the truly required knowledge of proper energy manipulation to perform a healing isn't something that can be summed up with a few responses. The fact that you are unwilling the accept it as intereacting energy fields, which comes from certain basic facts and prefer the pheramonal explanation is a major stumbling block. Proper energy healing requires the belief that it is literal and tangible for the best results overall. An apparent material reductionist might work in certain instances, but it is still not a proper understanding.

what makes you think I have had no training in it? where did I ever state that?

The fact you've taken the position more aimed to material reductionism, the fact you say chi is a metaphor and not a literal thing, contradictory to its nature, the fact you aren't making a distinction between energy manipulation and energy healing, your stance that energy healing works the same way as modern medical healing, etc. etc.

If you really have had training in energy healing, it's grossly inadequate.

if you really felt that way, that I am not going to listen or understand, why do you bother to keep responding to anything at all?

The spirit has moved me. Why are you still responding?

nope - my level of understnaing (or lack thereof according to you) suits me just fine: you said that it wasn't the only standard; I know of no other that is valid; so I asked in a somewhat offhanded semi-sarcastic manner (should have used one of these, I guess: :rolleyes: ); anyway, if you feel like telling me about another one, fine; if not, then don't; but don't try to paint it as some sort of change of heart or capitulation on my part

I've been telling you what another one is with every post I've made in this thread, but every time, it gets dismissed.

so, how often do you get this urge? how many people have you actually worked with (a rough number is fine: mine would be some where in the 1,500 range, I'm guestimating, just for non-competitive comparison, so you have an idea of what sized of data base I'm drawing from)

The time between each urge varies. My best guess depends on the circumstance. Face-to-face, several thousands. At a distance, a little less, but that is also when I haven't used 'roaming healings', where the energy moves from person to person, to area to area and continues to do so and work on others without any conscious or subconscious input from me. All summed up, we're talking millions, if not billions. This is what comes from a more extensive understanding of what is involved in energy healing/manipulation.

no, my point is to show that despite my own "intuitive" approach, I always take another look from a more standardized perspective: they temper each other;

Only when you don't let one run roughshod over the other.

I have researched it , I have studied it; and I've moved past it;

You might have moved past it, but your posts demonstrate that it wasn't that extensive.

person comes for treatment; person receives treatment; person has bad response to treatment (e.g. - flair up of initial presenting symptoms and / or generalized inflammatory response - the two most common things I have seen); therefore, something about the treatment caused the response; now, maybe it was something therapist / healer did "wrong", maybe it's a healing crisis, maybe it's something else - but unless you can know that for sure, to me the responsibility is on the person giving the treament - if you can't figure it out, then my default position is that the healer has to take the responsibility;

And unless you can show any evidence other than 'I can't see any other reason', all you've got is a baseless accusation. Nothing more. That itself isn't responsible.

BTW, if it's the patient intentionally harming themselves afterwards or someone doing it to them obviously that is not due to the treatment itself (unless the treament induced some sort of serious psychosis in the former case, but I've never seen anything like that), so it's not something I am even considering

Failure to consider the possibility is bad, whether you work in a hospital, as an MD, or somewhere else.

so it' sort of like shammanic justice, huh? :rolleyes: if that was how the world really worked, that would be interesting (so i guess it's a good thing I was given all those shammanic protection sygils a few years back...)[/quote]

It's the same reason why there isn't a law for every wrongdoing, no matter how slight or grand.

mantis108

07-28-2007, 12:47 PM

And now for something less serious

Qi Animated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKFKxfL7tV4)

Enjoy

Mantis108

cjurakpt

07-28-2007, 12:54 PM

And this is why you will always never understand energy healing. You keep thinking of it as a figurative thing and always dismissing the literal, outside of anything related to the material body.
well, we are just going around in circles on this...no point going on about it at this point

I made the offer because the truly required knowledge of proper energy manipulation to perform a healing isn't something that can be summed up with a few responses. The fact that you are unwilling the accept it as intereacting energy fields, which comes from certain basic facts and prefer the pheramonal explanation is a major stumbling block. Proper energy healing requires the belief that it is literal and tangible for the best results overall. An apparent material reductionist might work in certain instances, but it is still not a proper understanding.
again, same thing - relatiely subjective versus relatively objective; I guess ultimately what works for you works for you, what works for me works for me;

The fact you've taken the position more aimed to material reductionism, the fact you say chi is a metaphor and not a literal thing, contradictory to its nature, the fact you aren't making a distinction between energy manipulation and energy healing, your stance that energy healing works the same way as modern medical healing, etc. etc.
so basically you infered it the same way I infered that you were not licensed...;)

If you really have had training in energy healing, it's grossly inadequate.
akin to my perspective of your training if you had in fact been licensed

The spirit has moved me. Why are you still responding?
I dislike leaving relatively loose ends - hence my attemps to bring this to some sort of relatively amicable closer, since going round and round gets us no where; agreeing to disagree and moving on in a gentalmanly fashion is the only win/win here, and hence the most feasible manner of discontinuing this with some sort of relative harmony (since I was the one who fired the general opening salvo at the beginning of the thread, I figure the onus is on me to initiate)

The time between each urge varies. My best guess depends on the circumstance. Face-to-face, several thousands. At a distance, a little less, but that is also when I haven't used 'roaming healings', where the energy moves from person to person, to area to area and continues to do so and work on others without any conscious or subconscious input from me. All summed up, we're talking millions, if not billions. This is what comes from a more extensive understanding of what is involved in energy healing/manipulation.
and again, here we have yet another insurmoutable difference of opinion

Only when you don't let one run roughshod over the other.
so we agree that it can go both ways...

You might have moved past it, but your posts demonstrate that it wasn't that extensive.
depends what you consider extensive: the equivalent of ~20 hrs.+ / week actively learning / treating over a period of about 5 years? maybe to you that is or isn't; I don't know (and don't really care); of course, you also have issues with the quality of what I ostensibly learned as well, so obviously the numbers are not that significant

And unless you can show any evidence other than 'I can't see any other reason', all you've got is a baseless accusation. Nothing more. That itself isn't responsible.
I hold myself to that standard; it's kept me clear on what was happening in most situations; it works for me; if you don't buy it at this point, no point in pressing it

Failure to consider the possibility is bad, whether you work in a hospital, as an MD, or somewhere else.
no - what I mean is that I don't consider that type of a situation when talking about holding a therapist accountable for what they do during a treatment - if something like that happens, it's obviously not the fault of the therapist / healer / MD's treatment per se, as I believe you were pointing out, and I was not concerned with because I found it as self-evident

anyway, seems like this has run its course; again, good luck