Hong Quan anyone?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've been researching Hong Quan and have found that there are several style named this.

- There is a Tang Dynasty era Hong Quan practiced by their military along with a type of Pao Chui. Sometimes this style is called Long Fist Tong Bei, but it is not related to Qi or Shi Tong Bei.
- There is a Hong Quan that was practiced all along the Yellow River that was derived from the 6 Step Boxing set (which is also mentioned in General Qi Chi's famous book).
-There is Shanxi Hong Quan
-There is Denfang village Hong Quan
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan (Xiao, Da, and Lao Hong Quan sets) that comes from Zhao Kwang Yin.
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan sets that are from 1200s that come from Li Sou (of bai Yi Feng and Jue Yuan fame).
- There is Louyang Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Cha Quan system's Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Shaolin Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan done by Ming Dynasty military (composed of sets named Xiao Hong, Da Hong, and Tiger Claw).

10 different Hong Quan stlyes. They are all different from each other and also there has been some interaction between these depending on the lineage.

Next, can you read Chinese? If so, please read these articles on Song and Ming Tai TZu Hong Quan,
They are all by that researcher, tell me what you think.

http://www.wushu2008.cn/viewthread.p...a=page%3D4
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102180940.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181121.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181332.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181643.html

http://www.wulinzhi.com/other-chinese-martial-arts/2494

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's another great article with tons of information
about the various Hong Quan style and how they compare:

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

[bredmond812]

hey sal,

those links from your first post 不行。 怎么办?

B Red

[r.(shaolin)]

Okay, first, everyone has to stop bothering to mention modern public show Shaolin cause it is just a circus act, it has not bearing on anything anyone is concerned with.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.



I am only concerned with the sets that all the oldest monks have passed on to Shi De Gen, Shi De Yang, Shi De Gian, Shi Se Yuan, the two Liu's, and so on.

As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.


There is no use bothering with any other things that "Shaolin" circus group does. ALL THESE OLD lineages, indeed do "The Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. " I have documentation of these sets, and have learned them, this Da Hong Quan
is actually the Lao Jia Quan,

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan (see my post: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47251&page=3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqttylj1Q&mode=related&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?




many people do not know that. This other Da Hong Quan that people often see is the 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan. What Huang didn't know (realized, whatever) is that there is the Xiao Hong Quan (that everyone is familiar with) then these 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan, and then there is Lao Hong Quan, they are all from Zhao Kuang Yin's Song Hong Quan, that he passed to Shaolin at some point.

Second, Shaolin Quan means all the various long fist styles practiced throughout Henan Province that was once derived from the early sets created by the martial guards at Shaolin under Fu Ju's supervision, such as Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan.


There is a series of signature moves that come from this set and if they are not found in a style's sets, then they are NOT Shaolin Quan, but some other kind of long fist.

As I pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.


I't s a silly question / statement in the first place.

Well, I;m bored of this topic, I would like to discuss Shaolin history / forms, etc with people who would like to do so,

So, I am starting a new thread on Hong Quan, and please if you want something to contribute answer that thread, thanks!

No offense to anyone meant, please

As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

[PangQuan]

Here is an old thread where I got a lot of info from Sal and RD in partial relation to what you're bringing up.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41291&highlight=da+hong

check it out, maybe some info you might want. several pages though....

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But now that you bring this up IMO the "this is for show' and 'not what we really do' is just a 'red flag' (no pun intended) that there is a lot of guess work going on at Shaolin.


As I said most of the martial arts these monks comes from various lay sources not a single lineage. take Shi De Gen, one of his teachers, Wu Shan lin was a layman. Yes yes I know that the claim is that Shan lin's father was once a Shaolin monk. Be that as it may, this lineage actually has very few sets. Shi De Gen was a martial art enthusiast and learned much of his material from other sources - in other words its a mixed bag. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, this is true for the other 'old' monks as well. Most of these people learned after the 1920's. So in a matter of speaking its not that old. All in all it makes for dicy research. I can buy that all this material is a good sampling of what was still around the region in the late 70's but to my mind it's one source and certain not a comprehensive nor a definitive one.

The only reason to bring this up is to make clear that I take what comes out of Shaolin today with salt.

As per my other post, i would agree with Huang Baoshan's (黄寶珊 -1905-1998)
view of this Hong Quan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y
also done by a layman in the early 80's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqttylj1Q&mode=related&search=

I am assuming that this article also referes to the above set.
http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Tell me something about Lao Jia Quan and its history. . . any video clips on the net around?






As a pointed out in another forum, Shaolin sets have not only signature movements but a signature structure.



As far as Hong Quan sure I would love to chat about Zhao Kuangyin aka. Taizu vs Zhu Yanzhang aka. Taizu and 紅拳 vs 洪拳. If you're still into it.

r.

Because we don't have time machines, I am interested in the sets themselves, how they are related, if so, he one seems to evolve from another, etc.
How there seem to be families of sets that seem to go together because they share so many movements, etc.
Many times there are nei gong sets that also appear connected to these sets as well.

Right now, I trust Shi De Gen and all the others that have looked at the various hand copied Shaolin manuals and what sets these books show. I find a coherency in them.
You can see how nei gongs like 6 Harmony Gong, Chan Yuan 8 Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, Rou Gong, Xin Yi Ba, and these sets all seem to have a relationship to each other:
Rou Quan sets, Xiao/Da/Lao Hong Quan, TZ Chang Quan, Tong Bi Quan, Pao Quan/Pao Chui, and any others like these.
The theory/body mechanics/postures/movements, etc etc etc all work together in this family of sets.

But so what if the lineages are from lay people? They more than likely should be considering how many in Shaolin's history people came and went and the place opened and closed and so on. I think that is more likely where you would find sets that have been preserved for hundreds of years (to make an anology: Montreal French still uses old phrases and words from Old French from the 1600s, Parisian French is very modern sounding and have many new words and phrases. Pomme Fritte is modern french, Patat Fritte is old french, much closer to Latin, since Italian also says Patate Fritti. Hope I made myself clear)

I am interested in discussing the possible evolution of these "Shaolin" sets and how they compare and contrast with each other and other sets from other related or not styles (tai ji, long fist, etc ) from other places in China. Case in point: I was observing an Emei set called 7 Star Fist, from the Zhao Men Sect (named so because these sets came there during the time of Zhao Kuang Yin in Song Dynasty). I noticed that this set was very much like Hawk Step Fist from Shanxi Hong Quan. One of these articles stated that a teacher from Emei went to Shanxi and taught these forms there, and the school he left behind to 4 of his students mixed these sets with their Shanxi Hong Quan sets. Hence the set being pretty much the same between emei and shanxi. See? Interesting, and historical.

----------------

About those Da Hong Quan sets you linked to.
That is the standard Da Hong Quan Yi Lu sets.
It is not the same as the Da Hong Quan set that is called Lao Jia Hong Quan.
Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set is a more advanced version of Xiao Hong Quan set. The Xiao hong quan is simple and consists of 36 postures. The Da Hong Quan/Lao Jia Hong Quan set contains all these moves plus more to make 64/72 postures/movements, and the moves in common are done much more complex and deeper understanding.

Da Hong Quan (as seen in the videos, sets 1 to 6) are also part of Zhao Kuang Yin's Hong Quan series that he gave to Shaolin, but they are of a different methodology (though they also contain the Xiao hong quan movements within them). They are a sum total of Zhao KY's techniques that he had learned in his life.
As stated in those links to articles that i posted.

I have a copy also of another series of Hong Quan sets from Shaolin that come from the Li Sou/Bai Yu Feng tradion, and they are noting like these sets at all.
I should look and compare them to Shanxi hong quan though, since Bai was from Shanxi originally. But it is Li Sou that gave Shaolin these sets as a gift (so they are from outside).

------------------------------------------------
YES< of course I would like to discuss Song TZ Hong Quan vs Ming TZ Hong Quan!

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan?
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from in Shandong?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. Where do these sets come from?
THey do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu).
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are Ming TZ sets, an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.

Any info would be great, thanks!

[B-Rad]

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

[Sal Canzonieri]

Most of this discusion is waaaaay over my head, but have any of you seen the Wudang Hong Quan (vcd offered on http://www.plumpub.com). Just curious what that's derived from...

I have seen that set (I have the vcd), well it looks like basic Hong Quan seen in Hebei and Shandong Province.
Hong Quan simply means flowing boxing meaning that the movements are all to flowing one after the other so that it overwhelms to opponent like a flood.

So, Hong Quan is in a lot of unrelated styles, just like there are many different tong bei quan too, it's all just basic long fist.

There might be a connection to another style's hong quan, could be, I don't know right now.
Maybe someone else knows?

[DRleungjan]

Hello Sal,

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. I find it extremely interesting however. I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind:

The Siu Lam Hung Kyun sets that you mention on this thread, have they or did they influence any of the southern arts at one point or another in their history of development?


Just curious. :)

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hello Sal,

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. I find it extremely interesting however. I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind:

The Siu Lam Hung Kyun sets that you mention on this thread, have they or did they influence any of the southern arts at one point or another in their history of development?


Just curious. :)

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Could you clarify your question? Somehow in amongst all that I did not catch it.
Yes, there are many Hongquan some related some not, but pretty straightforward.

e.g. to some I could see:

Yang Jwingming's things are derived from the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (combined from Hebei and Shandong Masters' arts). which then was taken to Taiwan.

The Emei qixing set is from Zhaomen (of the 8 men of Emei)....it was derived from Zhili (Hebei) and Shanxi Martial arts so of course related to Shanxi and Hebei arts.

Shanxi Hongquan is itself a combination of arts.........

etc....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, well I have these questions:

Just what the heck is Shanxi Hong Quan? Where did they get all these sets from? I have had a hard time investigating this right now.
Is is Shaolin derived? How old is it?
I know that some of their sets came from Emei, but what about the others?

What can you tell me about Ming TZ Hong Quan?
Is it in any way related or derived from Song TZ Hong Quan at all?
I think not, I think it is more like Hong Gar's type of Hong Quan.
Is it completely different and if so what styles is it derived from?

Also, the style in Shandong known as Plumflower, it is a series of sets, the ones that Yang Jing Ming teaches and others. They do two Tai Tzu Quan sets (yi and er lu). Where do these sets come from?
People are telling me that these two TZ sets are unrelated to Song TZ, that they are an amalgamation of Shandong martial arts.
thanks

[DRleungjan]

Well, the answer is directly and indirectly.

A lot of your question I have answered here at my site:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

But, also Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan is what the Ming military did, their three main sets were Xiao (small) Hong Quan, Da (large) Hong Quan, and Tiger Claw.

Read my LONG southern KF history article on that site and you will see how this Tiger Claw entered into Fujian because of people who were stationed at a Ming Army Garrison before escaping to the south when the Qing dynasty started.

All you want to know and more is written there.

Ah...many thanks I will read in detail. :)

[Shaolin Master]

I will have more detail on Hongquan ...when I get around to filling that space on http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html but with my recent country move it will be a few more months before I start updating it all again......anyways.

Shanxi Hongquan:

Earliest records are from the Song Dynasty, it was called Xijia Quan (West Family Boxing) and later in the Wei period was renamed as Hongquan. It was supposedly due to the whole Zhao Taizu Hongquan 32 Postures ..... (which in the manuscript contains a lot of grammar commesurate with the dialect of Shanxi)

In the olden days it was said (Dong Qiang Xi Gun) - [East Spear and West Staff], it was also said (Dong Cha, Zhi Chuo, Xi Hong) - [ East (Shandong) practices Cha (quan), Zhi (Hebei) practices Chuo (Jiao) and the West practices Hong (Quan) ]

In the Qing dynasty the style was practiced by many both in Shanxi but also in Hebei etc....There were 4 well known masters that were responsible for the great propagation of the art ....these were Sanyuan's Yaozi 'Swallow' Gaosan (Master Gao Zhankui), Lin Tong county's Heihu 'Black Tiger' Xingsan (Master Xing Fuke), Tong Guan's county's E Hu 'Hungry Tiger' Susan .....etc.....they spread the art all over China...and the art became known as different brances such as Gao Family, Zhao Family and Xi Family (as per past)....etc as a side note Emei Zhaomen (is also known as Sanyuan pai..because it came from Shanxi Hongquan). Anyways it is also thought that Shaolin Jueyuan (Baiyufeng) had studied some Shanxi arts and passed on versions of basic Hongquan to Shaolin.

However...the style through time absorbed the features of other schools of chinese martial arts and as a result Shanxi Hongquan is a compilation of many arts allbeit with the Hongquan at its core. Some of the styles to which it encompassed include: Hongquan, Paoquan, Jiuquan, Huaquan, Tongbei, Ditang etc....this all resulted in the one hundred or so forms that it has developed through time.

...anyways that is Shanxi Hongquan for now.....

Kind Regards,
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

Careful not to compare apple and oranges.

Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan, was named after the Hong reign of the first Ming Emperor Zhu, is it is not what he practiced but rather, what the military practiced and was named so in his honor.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong


I really appreciate your historical information, thanks for all the great info on the various Hong Quan styles, I has helped clarify things for me.
THANKS!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

Fu YU Shaolin? From Yuan Dynasty?
So that would be the Kan Jia Quan shaolin style, which indeed was the base for which the Northern Shaolin style (hate that name, so easy to get confused with just northern shaoin in general) was created from.

Why does your website say Fu Yu is from the song dynasty, when everything known about Fu Yu is from the Yuan dynasty (which was when Kan Jia Quan was developed)
and from Shi De Gen, Shi De Gian, and all the other lineages say that Fu JU, not Fu YU is from the Song dynasty.

Fu Yu and Fu JU are not the same people, I know I have harped on this too many times, but they aren't.

Fu Yu is well documented as being from the Yuan Dynasty.

Fu JU is the one that called the 18 masters in the Song dynasty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Master:

Did you learn the Rou Quan sets from the Liu family?

If so, I have some questions.

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

still many typos throughout my sites....I never edit....Fu Ju Song of the 18 .....etc..

Anways yes Kanjiaquan (if you read chinese,....my front page says...'Shandong Yang Xiushan Shaolin Kanjiaquan)....

Nope I did not learn the shaolin rouquan that you would be querying...

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Shaolin Master,
I have a question on this form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

I know it came from the nanjing Kuosho academy. I also know that this is only half the set. What I want to know is if it was created at the nanjing Kuosho? Or if it is a set from an older Tai Tzu tradition that was brought in from the outside and taught there?

Also, is this set the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan? or is your set by that name different?

And lastly, if this is an older set originating from Shandong, do you know of any other lines that do it, and how do they compare to the nanjing version?

[MasterKiller]

Shaolin Master,
I have a question on this form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

I know it came from the nanjing Kuosho academy. I also know that this is only half the set. What I want to know is if it was created at the nanjing Kuosho? Or if it is a set from an older Tai Tzu tradition that was brought in from the outside and taught there?

Also, is this set the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan? or is your set by that name different?

And lastly, if this is an older set originating from Shandong, do you know of any other lines that do it, and how do they compare to the nanjing version?

That set looks a lot like Er Lu Maifu.

[Shaolin Master]

All these are also the same Nanjing Guoshu Taizu Changquan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

Han Qingtang (who taught Li Mao Ching who Taught Yang Jwing Ming) was from Shandong and his sets had elements from Shandong arts as well even though he spent a lot of time at the Nanjing Zhongyang Guoshu Guan. Like most teachers (and to some degree even students) of the institute they all had various backgrounds.

The sets include Liuhequan, Lianbuquan, Gongliquan, Tantui, Maifu (1,2 and 5), Shizitang, si lu chaquan, sanlupaoquan, Taizuchangquan, Kaoquan, Xiaohuyan, Fanche, Silubenda, yanqingquan, heihuquan, tanglangshou, luohanquan, jingangquan etc..

As one can see many were borrowed from the Chaquan, Yanqing (mizong) quan, tanglang and Taizu Changquan etc...(Shandong/Hebei) styles. So yes they do have similarities but so it possibly was a set and then modified a little (like most of the Nanjing sets or teachers thereof).

The Shandong variants have a different power method, Taiwan somehow tightened the movements up (not too bad seems purposeful).......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[r.(shaolin)]

On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan (Fist) needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban Army - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan (1279-1368) and Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the much earlier Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220). The name "Hong jin jun," (Red Turban army) was also used during the Jurchen conquests in 1127 during the fall of the northern Song.

The ancient Han Dynasty is commonly considered by Chinese to be one of the greatest periods their history. At one point during the Han Dynasty, Wang Mang, a "usurper" seized the throne. The Han dynasty was restored with the help of a grass roots group calling itself the Red Eyebrows, "Hong Chi Mei". This event became legendary, and the symbolic reason for the use of "red" by subsequent groups fighting against 'alien' rule.

The intentions of the 12 century rebellious military leaders of the northern Red Turban (Hong Jin - 紅巾) in the mid Yuan Dynasty (1300's) movement was "restoring of the "Song" dynasty - which was part of their ideology. They were instrumental in spreading both Hong Quan and its connection to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤, (Emperor Taizu- the founder of the Song Dynasty). During this last half of the Yuan Dynasty, there was an militarization of the Chinese population that has few precedents. The center of this militarization was Red Turban sectarian rebels who championed a restoration of the Song Dynasty. During the first part of his career Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 – the future founder of the Ming Dynasty – was a rising leader of the rebels who at first supported this idea for political and ideological reasons. The massive scale and significance of these movements seems to be escaping most of the forum discussion. You can say that Hong Quan is really a range of related styles connected to the rebellious military, polarized by Zhu Yuanzhang, and Red Turban commanders. This why most, if not all of the northern Hong Quan (Red Fist-紅拳) styles give Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty credit for Hong Quan 紅拳 styles. Throughout these struggles, Shaolin used the characters 洪拳 for Hong Quan (at least the tradition I practice) and it also attributes its invention to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song dynasty (more on that later). During the later part of the Yuan dynasty 1348 AD to 1353 AD, many groups organized throughout the country for the sole purpose of fostering rebellion against the alien Yuan.

There were two independent groups of Hong insurgents; the northern Hong headed by Zhao Kuangyin and the southern (or western) branch headed by Chen Youliang. Both Red Turban (Hong Jin Jun - 紅巾軍), helped militarize the population against the Yuan Dynasty. Their styles of Hong Qaan thus spread widelyand diversely in the northern China plain as well as in the south. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 eventually inherited the leadership of all the northern Red Turbans, and then after defeating Chen Youliang (the southern leader of the Hong), Zhu Yangzhang relocated himself in lower Yangzi region for strategic reasons. Once he gained control, he slowly disassociated himself from the Red Turbans and the Song dynasty. This helps to account for why northern Hong (Red) Quan still maintains the Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 / Song connection but the south generally does not.

The scale of this militarization was massive and wide spread, which why it is not possible to give any one person credit for any Hong system, let alone a particular set. Hong Quan (both northern and southern) also spread greatly during the middle and late part of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) as part of the Taiping Rebellion. This was during the time of Hong Xiuquan (Chin.: 洪秀全; a Hakka Chinese who led the Taiping Rebellion..

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪'vast' is used (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power (Also see note below). It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed there (or possibly renamed), sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

ps

There is also a subtle reference to 'red' in the word 'ming 明 as used in 'Ming Dynasty'. Ming is a split character made of sun日 and moon 月. The sun is always represented by red in China.

[mantis108]

On the subject of Ming founder Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 and 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan and Ming Dynasty. However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220).

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).
Han Shantong raised people's attention or rather hope by saying that they would return to Song reign. But they actually wanted the country for themselves. Han Shantong crowned/ordained himself as Ming Wang (King of Brightness 明王), which is part of his spiritual-military movement slogan, in order to legitimize his would be future role as the ruler of all China. He enticed Zhu Yuanzhang by giving him the title the King of Wu (吳王). According to "official" record, Zhu Yuanzhang refused the title. This is the part in history that get interesting because there is a discrepency in official record and folklore. Some see that Zhu Yuanzhang took Ming as the designation of his dynasty is a prove that he's involved with the white lotus cult. But others suggested that since Zhu's power base is in the south, it could be that he used Ming to commerate that but he actually got control of China through his own doing more or less. ;)

Mantis108

[Royal Dragon]

WOW, that is a lot of information to digest!!

2 questions still remain though. First, was this set...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

...created at Nanjing? or imported TO Nanjing from Shandong? In other words, When and where was it created?

And specifically for Shaolin Master, does the aboved linked to set resemble the form called "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" from your system?

Also, either way, do you know the history of that perticular set (your system's taizu?)

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, how does this fit into the picture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

Is it the second half of this form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4


Or is it a unique set in and of itself from the same system?

[r.(shaolin)]

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).

Yes it is a complicated story.
Han Shantong of the White Lotus Society was captured and executed and Liu Futong his chief of staff headed south. Liu transformed the earlier armed White Lotus militia into Red Turbans. He was one of the many rival contenders for leadership of the Red Turbans. Eventually it was Zhu Yuanzhang that won out.

r.

[Royal Dragon]

Masterkiller,

Was the "Little Tiger Swollow" a set that came out of the Nanjing Kuosho academy? If so, was it devloped there, OR was it developed in Shandong and just imported into Nanjing's curriculem?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks very much to everyone that is participating in this history lesson, I hope you all continue to discuss, Hong Quan history needs to be sorted out.

Questions that come to mind about all the various Hong Quans, please comment if you have any info, thanks:

- I saw documentation of the original Red 紅拳 Fist Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets and they were really the same as what is now called Vast Fist 洪拳 in Shaolin. Some clear variation in body mechanics, but the sets were the same regardless.

- The earliest I could find any history mentioning something called Hong Quan said there was a style called this that was practiced by the Tang military, and made its way into Shaolin during that era, along with some type of Pao Chui. No sets , just loose techniques, as was customary for the military. It's was a type of Tong Bei, which is like saying it was a type of Long Fist essentially.

- Shaolin has their widely known Xiao Hong Quan (36 postures) set, and also a set they now call Lao Jia Hong Quan (64 postures/72 movements) that is a longer, and more complex mechanically, version of the Xiao Hong Quan. Used to be that THIS set was called Da Hong Quan. And, I have some material from Shi De Gian that refers to this set as Da Hong Quan.

These two sets are what is called the Er (2) Hong Quan style of Shaolin?

- Then there are the Shaolin 6 Roads of the Da Hong Quan sets (which their quan pu poem/song attributes to Zhao Kuang Yin himself). Roads 1 and 2 are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Road one is pretty well known by people.
Any background on these Da Hong Quan sets ?

- Also, from Shi De Gian and from Liu Zhen Hai (and family) I have documentation of another series of a 4 Roads of Hong Quan sets. These are being called the Lao Hong Quan Shaolin style.
Any insight to when/where this from?

- What happened to the Hong Quan sets that Li Sou practiced at Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty? It is supposed to be from Shanxi originally.
Is there anywhere it can be seen?

- From what I understand, the Ming TZ Hong Quan that the Ming military practiced was pretty different than any Shaolin Song TZ Quan (both Hong or Chang Quans), that it was closer to what morphed into the Tiger sets of the Southern martial arts (the tiger part of Tiger & Crane from Hong Gar).

- Shandong had a documented group of monks from Shaolin in the exodus from Shaolin that happened in the 1700s. The linages from stem from them do Hong Quan sets as well, but their stuff looks like Shaolin Song TZ, but by now, with a Shandong martial arts flavor (some Cha Quan thrown in and so on).

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.
There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?
So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

THANKS! Looking forward to all of your comments (Shaolin Master, R. Shaolin, Mantis 108, etc)



On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

. . .

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪 (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power. It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed (or possibly renamed) there sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Masterkiller,

Was the "Little Tiger Swollow" a set that came out of the Nanjing Kuosho academy? If so, was it devloped there, OR was it developed in Shandong and just imported into Nanjing's curriculem?

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

[MasterKiller]

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

Some claim it comes from Wang Lang himself (but we all know it didn't. ;) )

[Royal Dragon]

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.

Reply]
But where did those two Tai tzu sets come from? did they exist in shandong as part of a tai tzu system prior? Or were they created at Nanjing?


There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?

Reply]
I don't think that has been answered yet. They may be Shandong Tai Tzu imported into Nanjing.


So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

Reply]
If they collected various sets, then those sets had to have existed previously, or they would not have been able to collect them...so by that logic they probably are ancient sets.

We need to understand that the Nanjing system is not Tai tzu, but just a collection of various Long fist sets from other traditions. Some of those sets Nanjing created, others they imported from other systems. If these two Tai Tzu Hong Quan sets were imported from a larger Tai tzu Hongquan system stemming from Shandong, then there should be a complete system out there with those two forms in it that would include all the matching sets as well.

We need to find out if Nanjing created them, or Imported them into thier curicculem.

[Robert Young]

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.

Reply]
But where did those two Tai tzu sets come from? did they exist in shandong as part of a tai tzu system prior? Or were they created at Nanjing?


There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?

Reply]
I don't think that has been answered yet. They may be Shandong Tai Tzu imported into Nanjing.


So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

Reply]
If they collected various sets, then those sets had to have existed previously, or they would not have been able to collect them...so by that logic they probably are ancient sets.

We need to understand that the Nanjing system is not Tai tzu, but just a collection of various Long fist sets from other traditions. Some of those sets Nanjing created, others they imported from other systems. If these two Tai Tzu Hong Quan sets were imported from a larger Tai tzu Hongquan system stemming from Shandong, then there should be a complete system out there with those two forms in it that would include all the matching sets as well.

We need to find out if Nanjing created them, or Imported them into thier curicculem.

Let me clearify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

[Royal Dragon]

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

[Robert Young]

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4


Yes, it is the same as our Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. And, it is the only and the whole form. There is no second section of this form. The person in the clip is my younger Long Fist uncle Lee, Mao-Qing.

[Royal Dragon]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

[Robert Young]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/LBmini/lbkmini_A203.jpg

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

I think you have been misled about this, I have never seen anything to support this information anywhere.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Let me clarify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?

[Robert Young]

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/LBmini/lbkmini_A203.jpg

Gao Dao Sheng's two road Long Fist is prabably the form he learned in Sang Dong when he was young. I don't know who he learned it from. I have not really looked inside of the book. But if he says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, it may be another Tai Zu Chang Quan set. But it does not relate to our Tai Zu Chang Quan. There are other people practice other Tai Zu Chang Quan froms from Sang Dong also, that does not mean they are related. Chinese like to use famous people to name their forms that does not mean Tai-Zu created the forms or anything related to Tai-Zu. It is simply a good name to use and people used it. There are many southern Tai Zu forms in southern Shaolin Tai Zu system from Fu-Jian/Taiwan also. But, they are from totally different systems.

[Robert Young]

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?


Tz Chang Quan is the form from Long Fist system. NO one really know the history of it, and it really doesn't matter. It is who we learned it from is important. Every generation and every master has modified a little bit here and there depending on their own interpretation. My Long Fist uncles' version of TZ is a little different from our version even some of my Long Fist younger uncle's Tz was actually taught by my teacher. This is Chinese thinking, and believe me, I'm very very traditional person and I'm dead serious about our tradition.

The term "Shaolin" is a general term. When we say I practice Shaolin simply means I practice Chinese martial arts. Then, there are northern Shaolin and southern shaolin which means norhtern Chinese martial arts and southern Chinese martial arts. Shaolin is not a system or style like some people think. In norhtern shaolin and southern shaolin, there are many many systems under each category. It is a simple way for people to identify which kind of martial arts they practice.

Yes, our TZ shares a lot of moves with MaiFu because MaiFu are also typical Long Fist forms we pratice. Xiao Hu Yen is another story, Our Xiao Hu Yen was from 7 star PM GM Wang, Song-Ting. All the Xiao Hu Yen from our Long Fist line under GM Han was from this source because it was my teacher first learned the form and spread the form to his Long Fist brothers. Our Xiao Hu Yen should be practiced a little different from the way LF does simply because it is a PM form, but most people do not know the difference. That is why some people think it has our LF influence. But the reality is that it should be praticed like PM not LF.

The history of our lineage I know can only traced back to my Long Fist great grand teachers who taught the arts to my GM Han in Sang Dong. This is the lineage we follow.

[Royal Dragon]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

[r.(shaolin)]

TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.


Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

At your service, see attachments, shows the first five moves after the opening salute Gao always does in his sets.

I can tell you that this Gao set is much more closer to the Shaolin TZ Chang and Hong Quan that I know, and it not at all like the TZ Chang Quan form of the Han line.
So, it must be like was said, an unrelated set to the Han set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

It's done so differently it might as well be a different set.
Again, you might have been misled.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, here is the thing, I have seen that set elsewhere too though. I will concede that it's an unrelated set, and also that the performer does not use the body method for Tai tzu (Or any shaolin art that I can see), but the rough over all choreography appears to match the other versions I have seen, like the girl in white from the treasures of Taiwan tape(she also does the Cha Fist set too).

I think if you removed the flash from his set it would be legit.

[Royal Dragon]

How much of the Shanxi Hong Quan is Tai Tzu related? 100 forms is a lot. The Tai Tzu stuff has to be limited to only a handfull of sets.

Am I correct in thinking that Shanxi Hong quan today is more of a collection of Hong systems found in the region, rather than one massive style?

[r.(shaolin)]

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm


Do people understand how sets are analyzed in relation to each other?


I - as much info as possible is found on "who taught who what, when, and where". In this way, you can see how various sets spread over an area or from one region to another.

I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's some new and interesting information on the Empty Flower board that you might all like to see, I was amazed by it:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1187475183

Hong Quan is mentioned.

[RAF]

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

[Sal Canzonieri]

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

If you can watch it, please give us any factual points that might be of interest, thanks (dates, names, etc) that might be mentioned in the show.

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm



I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

I totally agree, these are very important.

By the way, the 3 main sets of Shaolin Hong Quan have three different salutes and the opening and closing of each of their sets.

1 - Xiao Hong Quan sets
2 - Da Hong Quan sets
3 - Lao Hong Quan sets

The Lao Hong Quan sets always end with the Pull the Bow posture.
They always open with a Double Ming Fist (no flat hand over the fist, this of course was a Ming dynasty salute), the Lao Hong Quan sets, which are directly from Zhao Kuang Yin himself start out with Double Fist, each of the 4 sets do it in a different direction.

[Royal Dragon]

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

The 6 Da Hong sets have their own salute, similar to the xiao one, but not the same.

The first line of the song/poem for the first set says literally "given to us by the emperor Tai Tzu"

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting.

I was going through those charts you sent me, I don't think they are fully complete as some of the transitions don't make any sense to me. It could be that I don't have enough of a background to work them out as is. I need a more detailed blueprint.

Also, do you have the Da Hong charts as well?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting.

I was going through those charts you sent me, I don't think they are fully complete as some of the transitions don't make any sense to me. It could be that I don't have enough of a background to work them out as is. I need a more detailed blueprint.

Also, do you have the Da Hong charts as well?

I throughly practiced the movements all month, everything is there.

What you don't see if that in the Chinese language explanation next to the images, it has further instructions, like "first step forward with right leg and then with left leg" and the image only shows the final leg movements in the motion arrows.

I can read you what the Chinese is saying if you are stuck.
There are just a few points where the text has more info that the illustration does not show at all.

[Royal Dragon]

I was thinking that.

Are these all supposed to be practiced as one long set?

Either way, what is the reason for having 4 sets, when you could do them all back to back in one form?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I was thinking that.

Are these all supposed to be practiced as one long set?

Either way, what is the reason for having 4 sets, when you could do them all back to back in one form?

Why is there 6 Da Hong Quan sets or 4 Pao Chui sets, and so on?

In this case, and as is often the cause in many CMA, each set is called a Lu in Chinese, which is close to meaning a road or route or routine.
They are really all one long set, but each Lu emphasizes different ideas and strategies.

You are supposed to do them all back to back as one form, yes.
But during each one you look for the new lessons it is teaching you.

By the way, there are 116 movements in these sets, but 108 different postures.
AND< they start and end of sets of 32 postures (like the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan Yi Lu set), AND you can find just about all these postures in General Qi Chi Quang's infamous 32 move set.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. Which onces are missing from Qi jiguangs set?

OR, is Qi Jiguangs form a section of this material maybe?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting. Which onces are missing from Qi jiguangs set?

OR, is Qi Jiguangs form a section of this material maybe?

It's always the same 3-4 moves missing, which are from the other styles that he mentioned in his list (Ba Fan Shan, etc).

[r.(shaolin)]

......

In this case, and as is often the cause in many CMA, each set is called a Lu in Chinese, which is close to meaning a road or route or routine.
They are really all one long set, but each Lu emphasizes different ideas and strategies.

Shaolin sets as well are structured on certain number of sections/parts (Chin.:部 bu) or roads (Chin.:路 lu) Both these terms have been included in the names of some sets. However in those cases, the number of sections or roads is generally included in the full name of the set. Shaolin's Tantui Shier Lu 譚腿十二路 "Tantui 12 roads or paths," follows this convention. Like most traditional Shaolin sets Tan Tui travels on a line going back and forth, these lines are called 'roads' (Chin.:路 lu). Each grouping is designed to fall neatly into a single road. This is why you hear the word "tao lu (Chin.:套路) "a set (as in a group) of roads," in reference to sets. As you can see the word 'set' is an appropriate word for what some people call 'forms'.

On the other hand, Shenlong Shier Bu 神龍十二部 which like most traditional Shaolin sets, travels on a line going back and forth, uses the word 'bu部' rather than '路 lu'. This is because it is measured by grouped sequences of attacks and counters which are strategically more complex and do not fall neatly into a line per section.


By the way, the 3 main sets of Shaolin Hong Quan have three different salutes and the opening and closing of each of their sets.

1 - Xiao Hong Quan sets
2 - Da Hong Quan sets
3. - Lao Hong Quan

What has been passed on by our older generations is that all Shaolin sets begin with the Shiwuwei Yin hand position (for dispelling fear and symbolizes protection, etc. - the left Shiwuwei Yin for empty hand sets; the right Shiwuwei Yin for weapons) followed with both palms pressing down along the front of the body. In the case of weapons, just the one hand is pressed down.

Shaolin was unique in that it documented the origins of sets they 'absorbed'. According to the tradition I practice this included retaining the style name of sets, as with Hong Quan. Although Shaolin monks added their own opening gestures in front of these adopted sets they retained the existing beginnings as well. This created longer opening sequences. In other words there was no attempt to hid the source of sets by Shaolin monks.

We do not have any sets called "Lao Hong Quan sets" so I cann't comment.

However in our case, once the typical 'Shaolin Shiwuwei Yin' is done the 'original' openings for Xiao and Da Hong follows. Although these are different for Xiao and Da, they do have some similarity as well. According to our tradition Xiao and Da Hong Chuan Quan sets were practiced at Shaolin monastery for centuries and were used in tests of basic skill (da being the more difficult set). Versions of these extant sets spread to the laity because they were commonly done by all martial monks at one time. During the early 1950's when the PRC's Research Commission of Chinese Physical Culture began to standardize and simplify traditional northern long fist sets, simplified versions (of the way we do Xiao and Da Hong Changquan) have found their way into early modernized wushu.


no flat hand over the fist

That's right, Shaolin does not use this salute.

r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Here's some new and interesting information on the Empty Flower board that you might all like to see, I was amazed by it:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1187475183

Hong Quan is mentioned.

Hi Sal,
I finallly had a chance to look at this and found it interesting as well.
Here are my thoughts.


At that time, the most important styles in Shaolin Si was Shaolin Taizu Chuan, Shaolin Hong Chuan and Shaolin Pao Chuan.

Basically this confirms that around end of Ming and beginning of Qing dynasties, Hong Quan was important or at least was well known at Shaolin and was attributed to Taizu.


Bai Yufeng's, Wu Xing Di Tang Chuan (5 element tumbling boxing), created during the Yuan dynasty, had probably already been disseminated to the masses.

Our traditions also claims that Bai Yufeng and Wu Xing being created during the Yuan Dynasty, however this is the first time I've heard any one calling Wu Xing a "tumbling boxing". This is interesting because in our tradition 'tumbling' is well represented in three of the 12 sets that make up Shaolin Wu Xing as we practice it. These three important sets being: Wu Xing Hu Shou 五形虎手(Five Shapes of Tiger Hands); Wu Xing Long Shuo 五形龍手( Five Shapes of Dragon Hands) and Long Hu Zheng Sheng 龍虎爭 勝(Dragon and Tiger struggling for Supremacy).



At this time, Ji Longfeng had not yet gained any true inspiration, however, the path to Shaolin runs past the QianZhai Temple in Bo’Ai county.

Priest Dong of QianZhai, was famous for his Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands)

This suggests that Rou Quan was not from Shaolin but from Qianzai Temple 千載寺. This temple was not an orthodox Chan Buddhist temple but a synthesized temple that combined Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.


This is the same way the merchant Wang Zong Yue passed his Soft Hands and Six Harmony Spear skills to Dong when he passed the temple when he passed by. No style can be created from nothing and just as Zhang San Feng took the lessons of those before him and created the 13 Soft Hands, Ji Longfeng too, had a teacher.

Again this suggests that Rou Quan is not from Shaolin.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This suggests that Rou Quan was not from Shaolin but from Qianzai Temple 千載寺. This temple was not an orthodox Chan Buddhist temple but a synthesized temple that combined Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.

Again this suggests that Rou Quan is not from Shaolin.

r.

Well, maybe.

First there was the Shaolin nei Gongs that the Rou Quan come from:
LiuHe Gong (6 harmony)
Chan Yuan Gong (Zen Circular exercises)
Luohan 13 Gong

From them the Rou Quan sets were made (3).

oral history says that these sets are from Tang Dynasty or earlier to Sui.

How do we know that the Taoist Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) is not derived from these supposedly ancient Shaolin sets.

Maybe it is possible that Shaolin got them from Taoists? Or vice versa?

I'd have to compare the Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) to the Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong and so on to know for sure.

One thing is for certain, tai ji is very much like these Shaolin sets (both the nei gongs and the rou quan)
AND

the other interesting thing is that the Qianzai Temple's 千載寺 martial art is said to be a Shanxi province Tong Bei origin
AND these Shaolin Nei Gong and Rou Quan sets are CLEARLY derived from Tong Bei !!!
(if you've done both, as I have)

I really wonder which came first, the Shaolin or the Taoist starting point?

Will need some detective work. If the information is available, it can be ascertained I think by comparing dates and so on.

We know that both Chen Wang Ting, his Li family cousins and now it is known that Ji Long Feng went to Qianzai Temple during the early Ming time period.

The 6 Harmony style is known to go back to the Song dynasty.

But this 13 Postures is the real missing link.

When and where did the Taoists get it?

Also, if Qianzai Temple is founded by Shanxi people who moved south to Henan, where did they get this 13 Postures art from?
They say from Taoist source (Zhang Seng Feng - but that is considered merely a legendary story).

If Shaolin has been doing these very primitive but effective sets since Sui or Tang dynasty, then maybe they are the original source?
And people didn't know that the Taoist got it from Shaolin originally, especially since by Ming time period Shaolin had be destroyed and closed down a few times already and their arts scattered all over the place after the Song and Yuan dynasties.

[r.(shaolin)]

I really wonder which came first, the Shaolin or the Taoist starting point?

Will need some detective work. If the information is available, it can be ascertained I think by comparing dates and so on.


When and where did the Taoists get it?

Also, if Qianzai Temple is founded by Shanxi people who moved south to Henan, where did they get this 13 Postures art from?
They say from Taoist source (Zhang Seng Feng - but that is considered merely a legendary story).



Many Buddhists clergy kept friendships with Taoists clergy; and without a doubt there were exchanges and absorption of elements between Taoist and “Buddhist religious teachings as well as martial arts.

Shaolin was characterized by the fact it absorbed many kinds of martial arts coming from all kinds of different people. Just one example is Shaolin's Seven stars sword (chin.: Qixingjiàn 七星剑) which has obvious Taoist reference in its name. This should not surprise in that Taoism has a deep history in China.

During the Tang period of the three spiritual systems: Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism, Taoism was the paramount. During the Song and even during the Yuan it continued to be very influential. It was not until the end of the Ming dynasty that it began to decline and during the Qing dynasty it was Buddhism which stood in high regard. By then Taoism no longer had any standing at the imperial court.

The relationships between Taoism and Buddhism was complex, as they influenced each other in many ways while often competing. Chan is a prime example in that it was the product of a successful transformation of Buddhism and Chinese traditional thinking and China’s native culture.

Of the different sects of Buddhism that developed in China, Chan most closely came to reflect Taoist influence. Many scholars maintain that there was an interaction during Imperial times between Taoist monks and Chan Buddhists and there was a mutual borrowing of gods and rites. As late as the early 1900’s, both monks and other observers of the time noted that Taoist monks were in fact allowed to stay in the wandering monks hall’s even at strict model Buddhist monasteries and attend devotions, and meals.

This is supported in histories/legends passed on to my teacher concening some Shaolin sets.

Old Li family histories say that the Li brothers and Chen Wangting created shisanshi tongbei gong 十三式通臂功 - Thirteen Postures Boxing, also called taiji yangshen gong 太極養生功 at Qianzai Temple 千載寺 (note that 'the concept of yin and yang comes from Taoist and Neo-Confucian philosophy not Buddhism).

Our verbal traditions say that Tai Ji were created by a lay follower of the Shaolin Monastery who was (or became – its not clear) a Taoist. The legend continues that a few generations later some sets of this art were introduced to Shaolin by his grand student(s).

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is supported in histories/legends passed on to my teacher concerning some Shaolin sets.

Old Li family histories say that the Li brothers and Chen Wangting created shisanshi tongbei gong 十三式通臂功 - Thirteen Postures Boxing, also called taiji yangshen gong 太極養生功 at Qianzai Temple 千載寺.

Yes, agreed, thanks.

This Tai Ji Tong Bei that Chen Wangting and his Li cousins created was made from what they learned at this Qianzi Temple, which is called "tong bei" (shanxi long fist?) and nei gongs that they incorporated from the big three religions.

Now, it is found out the Ji Long Feng's spear and other training also comes from Qianzi and later Shaolin exchanged material with him, eventually leading to his creation of 6 Harmony Xin Yi.

Qianzi is shaping up to be the missing link between many things: Shanxi Province arts, Chen TJQ, XY, and Shaolin. I think it is important to explore these connections.



Our verbal traditions say that Tai Ji were created by a lay follower of the Shaolin Monastery who was (or became – its not clear) a Taoist. The legend continues that a few generations later some sets of this art were introduced to Shaolin by his grand student(s).

Well, that's the Chang San Feng story, isn't it?
He was the lay follower that went to Wudang and developed TJQ and whose grandstudents spread it in Henan Province.

I think that it wasn't really Chang Seng Feng but the person who ran the Qianzhi Temple who is the real person that did this.
BUT< he had said he had a taoist teacher who taught him the 13 Postures set.

A comparison really needs to be made between Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan 13 Gong and the 13 Postures Set.

Also, in the long run it is all based on Tong Bei, and very clearly these Shaolin sets, including their pre-requisite nei gong sets: 6 Harmony Gong and Chan Yuan Gong are derived from tong bei, they are almost identical.
And like tong bei, you can do them with sword in hand (like Taoist sets!)
Tong Bei has nei gongs, and is of course a Taoist art (was no Buddhism when tong bei was being developed - from sword movements).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's this relevant info with some answers:

According to Qu Jian and Li Xiangyi, “the art of Wuji Cultivating Life” and “the Thirteen Postures Boxing” had been CREATED by the Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 (614-741), or Li Daozi 李道子, who well studied the Three Teachings, Qianjin yifang 千金翼方 “Revised Prescriptions Worth a Thousand Pieces of Gold,” daoyin 導引 “guiding and pulling” and tunai 吐納 “expelling the old breath and drawing the new.” Based on the stone tablet inscriptions provided in Qu’s article, Shi Li’s art accentuates: “Don’t be bully of futileness, the pugilism is for life and health. The softness overcomes the hardness, give up yourself and follow the opponent 勿為霸腐 拳為民生 以柔克剛 舍己從人.” (Qu Jian; Li Xiangyi).

So, Li Daizi (Shi Li) was the Creater of 13 Postures set, wow interesting!!!!!

Not Chang San Feng, or some mystery Taoist.
Perhaps he was the ex-Shaolin person that turned to Taoism?

Since he was lived from 614-741, it is very well possible that he via his grand-students later brought this type of Rou Quan material to Shaolin? He did live pretty far back!

Interesting that when Ji Long Feng went to Qianzhi Temple, he learned 6 Harmonies (spear and fist) there.
Since the source nei gong to the whole Song dynasty era Shaolin sets (Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Tong Bi, etc) comes from the 6 Harmonies Gong set!
Very interesting.

What we need to do is compare 13 Postures Set to Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong and Rou Quan.

[Bruce W Sims]

Although it may seem like the most obvious answer, most of the folks who I know who attempt research in this area seem to be drawn to materials dated back hundreds of years. The lack of documentation seems to bother them not at all.

For myself, I tend not to pay much attention to anything prior to the YUAN Dynasty, as even going back some 700 years is probably a bit of a stretch, yes?

As far as General Qi's material I can only say that I concur with the latest scholarship that supports that the Boxing Canon is primarily TAIZU Long Fist and that General Qi's commentaries provide little or no insight into the execution of such material. I have been aware for some time that it has become acceptable for people to take the salient position of the methods and attempt to chain these together in some fashion as to produce a "form"(See: Qi Family Publication). To my mind it would make much more sense to use the individual methods as they are.

Currently I am engaged in research into the KWON BUP material which is said to derive from the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Unfortunately I must report that while this is a popular position for people who have read the recent translation (See: Kim, Turtle Press), once one steps away from this single representation the entire fabric begins to come undone.

Has anyone else found a similar rapid degrading of information over the last two hundred years? Personally I think we might do better to focus on this rather than attempt to identify something from the 10th Century, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

I think it makes sense to try and identify as much as we can, as far back as we can.

[Bruce W Sims]

I certainly agree with that. I wonder only that perhaps we might have more success--- more useful information of direct consequence to what we do today ---if, perhaps, we begin with what we know in THIS century and work backwards.

For instance, we know that the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI was published in 1795. This post-dates the work of both the Chen Clan as well as YANG Luchan. And, the work, itself, invokes the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Might we not be better served if we could identify those methods for what they are in that work? The Koreans did not use but about 19 of the methods and the time period cannot be so far removed from what we do now that folks are unable to identify the methods for what they are--- a scant 212 years ago. Certainly the nomenclature ought be found in either the CHEN tradition or one of the five styles that make-up the Northern Chinese Long Fist tradition, yes? Such a contribution would allow people to actually put the material of this resource in the Public Domain rather than keep it secretive within the Korean culture.

I think it is always fun to muse over the origins of things. For people who are entertained by the notion, we can always ascribe the "Eight Pieces of Brocade" the the 12 Century patriot Yue Fei, for instance, though we will never be able to know if he originated them or not. And for the TCM folks among us, we can always imagine that the "Yellow Emperor's Canon of Medicine" was actually written in the 3rd Millenium BC rather than the 3rd Century AD as is more likely. But from the standpoint of application and practice, where may the better good be served? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

Hmmmm... What happened to the discussion?

Was it something I said?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[r.(shaolin)]

Bruce (and Sal),

I'm buried with other pressing matters. I do have some thoughts
on your interesting posts. Later this weekend I will try and get them down and post something.

cheers,
r.

[Royal Dragon]

As far as Taiji goes, I have heard that everything, in every Taji style is found in Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan.

Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is supposed to be the style of the Elite Imperial Guards of the early Sung dynasty (Still trying to fully prove that though, but so far it looks to be accurate) and is basically a mix of the prominat military styles of the time.

That being said, it would have been spread through out the area, and common to anyone who's family had a career military person in thier line somewhere.

The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is softer, and more internal looking to me, and you can clearly see that the 32 posture set from Shaolin is imbedded in Chen Taiji's old form (As shown In Sal's article for the magazine).

Since Sal has access to those with expertise in the old Shaolin historical records, we are able to know what Tai Tzu Chang Quan was comprised of in the Sung dynasty. We can then compare those techniques to Taiji, and see what is there today.

That is the reason why it is so important to be familiar with the really ancient stuff.

As for Cha Fist, various Hong Fists, Tong Bei, Cuo Jiao (foot poking), We know those were the military styles that were common prior to, and during the early Sung dynasty…the techniques of which, both Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, are made of.

Prior to the Sung dynasty, those styles all were formless, and just collections of loose techniques and their usage.

I am told Taoist Tong bei is very old, thousands of years in fact. Between this style, and Shui Jiao, it looks to me that they are from where all Chinese styles sprang from, including most of the core, central Shaolin styles.

Knowing all this, it allows us to move forward on the timeline, and see the evolution of newer styes.

[Bruce W Sims]

Well said, but how do we know that what we are talking about is the same as what is practiced in actuality? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

Well, in the case of many Sung dynasty Shaolin (Like Tai Tzu) the historical records are still around. We may not know exactly, but the techniques are well known, and probably the choreography of the forms. That is as close as you are gonna ever get I think.

It is enough to gte a genral picture of things though.

[Bruce W Sims]

“Well, in the case of many Sung dynasty Shaolin (Like Tai Tzu) the historical records are still around. We may not know exactly, but the techniques are well known, and probably the choreography of the forms. That is as close as you are gonna ever get I think.

It is enough to get a general picture of things though.”

I want to agree with you, Royal, but there is some piece of this that simply does not set well with me. For instance, I know that in the KMA it is not at all unlikely to find people waxing profound over the nature of the HWA RANG warriors when, in point of fact, we know next to nothing about them, their purpose, training, tactics, training and so forth. Its fun to speak in gross terms about them, and Gawd knows that more than a few post-WW II traditions have invoked them. However the actual amount of information simply doesn’t justify all of the nose-scratching.

For comparison, at least the MYTBTJ is closely related to the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Seems that if someone wanted to investigate, they would side-step much of the pre-Yuan material and start taking a stronger look at the execution of identified material from, say, 1700-going-forward.

Please understand that I have every regard for “pure science” and “pure research”. Perhaps I share these thoughts only because I come from a bit more pragmatic view, yes? As an example it might be interesting to identify the first time a particular method, say, “Pats High (on) Horse”, is ever mentioned in the literature, and that is Well and good. For my part, however, I would rather take as many executions of such a method, and compare and contrast them to identify the essence of the method. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Sal Canzonieri]

Although it may seem like the most obvious answer, most of the folks who I know who attempt research in this area seem to be drawn to materials dated back hundreds of years. The lack of documentation seems to bother them not at all.

For myself, I tend not to pay much attention to anything prior to the YUAN Dynasty, as even going back some 700 years is probably a bit of a stretch, yes?

As far as General Qi's material I can only say that I concur with the latest scholarship that supports that the Boxing Canon is primarily TAIZU Long Fist and that General Qi's commentaries provide little or no insight into the execution of such material. I have been aware for some time that it has become acceptable for people to take the salient position of the methods and attempt to chain these together in some fashion as to produce a "form"(See: Qi Family Publication). To my mind it would make much more sense to use the individual methods as they are.

Currently I am engaged in research into the KWON BUP material which is said to derive from the Boxing Canon of General Qi. Unfortunately I must report that while this is a popular position for people who have read the recent translation (See: Kim, Turtle Press), once one steps away from this single representation the entire fabric begins to come undone.

Has anyone else found a similar rapid degrading of information over the last two hundred years? Personally I think we might do better to focus on this rather than attempt to identify something from the 10th Century, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

So far, the only documentation that exists that has been found is the hand written copies of the Shaolin manuals that were later burned in 1925 fire.

Shi De Gian (co-writer of Shaolin sets encyclopedia) and others spent the last 40 years traveling throughout China and South East Asia looking for all these hand written manuals that various lineage holders have been passing on through the generations since Shaolin essentially shut down after 1925.

-----------------------------

The stuff seen in General Qi's book in no way other than names for postures is what is found in Chen Tai Ji sets.

They clearly took Shaolin sets as frames for their internal ideas that came from Chen Wang Ting's development of 13 Postures Tong Bei.

The postures in General Qi's book are not a real set, just a collection of techniques.
Most of them are indeed seen in various Tai Tzu related Shaolin sets.
But the other postures are from other styles he mentioned (Ba Shan Fan, etc).

I used to not agree with this, until I compare all the material together from the different styles and it became very obvious.

[Bruce W Sims]

Dear Sir:

As I begin this I had some misgivings as to whether or not I would have been able to respond through PM given the limits of this system. I thank you for your kind response and hope that you appreciate how much your input is valued by me in furthering this project. As I suspected, however, the PM will take only 1000 characters or less. Perhaps a hidden blessing might be that a public exchange might give others a chance to pitch-in as well, yes? Anyways, here goes......

I will not restate the entire history of the MYTBTJ as I am sure you are much familiar with the work and the origins of its materials, their import to Korea from China, the many revisions, and the final publication in 1795. I am also sure that you are aware of the recent commercial translation by Dr. KIM Sang H. (See: ISBN 1-880336-53-7), which, though much regarded, is not what I would characterize as a “scholarly” work, the translation being rather “free”, if you will.

My current work focuses on the KWON BUP (Lit: “Fist Method”) portion of that work (See: Book Four; Chapter One). The MYTBTJ identifies this material as coming from CHUK Kye-kwang (C. QI Ji-guang) and his manual Ji Xiao Shin Shu (See Chapter 14). However. You will find great differences resulting from how the Koreans elected to frame and use the material. Please consider the following.

1.) Have a copy of Gyves (See: University of Arizona) fine translation of General Qi’s “Boxing Canon” and it contains all 32 stanzas, suggesting that all of the methods are accounted for. I also have several copies of the MYTBTJ in English, Han-Gul and, most importantly in Hanja, which is to say in the earlier Chinese before the post-Revolutionary Government (1911) initiated the revisions that were later adopted.
2.) A survey of the KWON BUP chapter readily produces a list of the following 28 methods.

#1 Tam Ma Se (Scouting Horse Posture)
#2 Yoran Ju Se (Breaking Bird Elbow)
#3 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture)
#4 Sunran Ju Se (Docile Bird Wing)
#5 Chilsung Kwan Se (Seven Star Fist Posture)
#6 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture)
#7 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture)
#8 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture)
#9 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture)
#10 Bok Ho Se (Prone Tiger Posture)
#11 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture) Repeat
#12 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture)
#13 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture)
#14 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture)
#15 Joong Sahp Yung Se (Four Level Posture)
#16 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture) Repeat
#17 Do Ki Ryong Se (Falling and Riding the Dragon)
#18 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture) Repeat
#19 Mae Bok Se (Ambush Posture)
#20 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture) Repeat
#21 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture) Repeat
#22 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture) Repeat
#23 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture) Repeat
#24 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture) Repeat
#25 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture) Repeat
#26 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture) Repeat
#27 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture) Repeat
#28 Ohwa Jun Shin Se (Five Flowers winding around the Body)

You will, I think find the names of these methods familiar both from the JI XIAO SHIN SHU as well as the material of the CHEN clan now known as CHEN TAI CHI CHUAN. You may also notice that many of the labels are also found in the TAIZU CHANG CHUAN traditions (See: Huo). However, please note that when repeated methods are deleted, there are in fact, only 17 methods or merely half of the original Boxing catalogue.

Combination #1 Tam Ma Se (Scouting Horse Posture)
Combination #2 Yoran Ju Se (Breaking Bird Elbow)
Combination #3 Hyunkak Huhee Se (False Prey Posture)
Combination #4 Sunran Ju Se (Docile Bird Wing)
Combination #5 Chilsung Kwan Se (Seven Star Fist Posture)
Combination #6 Kosa Pyung Se (Four Levels Posture)
Combination #7 Do Sahp Se (Throwing Posture)
Combination #8 Il Sahp Bo Se (Drizzling Walking Posture)
Combination #9 Yo Dan Pyun Se (Single Whip Posture)
Combination #10 Bok Ho Se (Prone Tiger Posture
Combination #11 Ha Sahp Se (Pinning Posture)
Combination #12 Dang Du Po Se (High Block Posture)
Combination #13 Ki Go Se (Flag Beating Posture)
Combination #14 Joong Sahp Yung Se (Four Level Posture)
Combination #15 Do Ki Ryong Se (Falling and Riding the Dragon)
Combination #16 Mae Bok Se (Ambush Posture)
Combination #17 Ohwa Jun Shin Se (Five Flowers winding around the Body)

Further the Koreans, most probably owing to the political climate of the times, appear to have retained only the most “benign” of the methods. They also introduced a curious two-person drill, perhaps in response to the late General Qi’s recommendation that single training also required paired training. Is this fashion two people were pitted against one-another but only so far as their methods would cancel each other, and not so that one might “triumph” over the other (See: KWON BUP; Author’s Note)

Modern attempts to investigate this material to any depth have failed miserably, probably from a host of mis-informations and insecurities on the part of modern-day Korean scholars. For instance, not a few people have elected to use materials from the YANG, WU and SUN TCC traditions in an effort to reconstruct these methods. In another instance, Koreans who are well-informed on the matters of the MYTBTJ choose not to communicate with non-Koreans as it would most probably reveal the poverty of their own knowledge as well as disclose a much-prized national tradition.

What I am seeking to accomplish is to characterize the execution of the KWON BUP Methods in a manner most closely approximating how they might have been known at the time of their publication, round about 1750 to 1800. There is no huge secret about this material and the possibility of providing this to the KMA community is an exciting prospect.

Let me stop for the moment and ask your thoughts thus far.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

As far as I know, the names of the Qi Jiguang postures do match with Chen, HOWEVER apon comparing the actual moves, there is no match at all. The names were used, but not the moves those names go to.

Now, if you compare Chen Taiji to Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, regardless of what the names of the moves are, the moves themselves match up exactly. In fact Sal has an article where he shows how each Tai Tzu posture was compared to the old Chen form, and it was found that the entire Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set was not only in the Old Chen form, but in the exact same sequence, move for move, IN ORDER. The Chen only added thier own stuff in between those moves.

Also, in comparing the first section of the Loa Hong Form, and Da Hong form from the Shaolin Tai Tzu system, it is clear to see that Zhao Boa Taiji was built on Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well...the names of the moves mean nothing, and neither does the sharing of the names between various Taji lines, and General Qi Jiguang. Only the actual sharing of the moves themselves matters. That said, the sharing of the actual moves is between Taiji, and Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

Qi jiguan was just a military man, and thus exposed to Tai Tzu, as it was a prominent military art during is time. Back then Tai Tzu was as common as TKD schools are today. Just becasue he was exposed to Tai Tzu, and Chen style is also built on Tai Tzu, does not mean Chen got thier techniques from Qi Jiguan's book.

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, Royal, this is exactly what I have found for myself. It is quite a source of comfort to communicate with people who are “on the same page”. In the past I have worked to convey these same concerns to others in the KMA community and have been stuck by how obtuse folks seem to be when I raise these very concerns. Please allow me to take these one at a time.

“….As far as I know, the names of the Qi Jiguang postures do match with Chen, HOWEVER upon comparing the actual moves, there is no match at all. The names were used, but not the moves those names go to…..”

For the purposes of my research I only use the late General Qi’s “Boxing Canon” as a catalogue, of sorts, to assure that I am talking about a discrete number of methods. As we both know, the writing itself offers only the General’s principles regarding the methods, since he undoubtedly left it to his cadre to actual teach the techniques based on each method to his units. In this sense, the general’s writings only serve to get us “into the church” but do not help us to any one particular “pew”, as it were.

“……Now, if you compare Chen Taiji to Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, regardless of what the names of the moves are, the moves themselves match up exactly. In fact Sal has an article where he shows how each Tai Tzu posture was compared to the old Chen form, and it was found that the entire Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set was not only in the Old Chen form, but in the exact same sequence, move for move, IN ORDER. The Chen only added thier own stuff in between those moves……”

This is precisely where I am at in my research. You are the third person I have met to invoke the “Shaolin 32” set of the Taizu LF tradition, though I have also had it presented to me as the “Taizu 32 Postures” of the Shaolin tradition. Either way I am given to believe that the methods are similar, and sometimes nearly identical while the labels may vary. This is where I think that the use of Qing Mandarin Characters as compared to traditional Korean Hanja would be a huge help. Still, you are very right that even if the labels might be sorted-out there is still the matter that the methods identified by those terms may vary considerably. This is why I have been so keen to focus on the TAIZU and CHEN material of the second half of the 18th century.
Certainly there might be some resources from that time which would reflect the execution of a method of a given name, yes?

“……Qi jiguan was just a military man, and thus exposed to Tai Tzu, as it was a prominent military art during is time. Back then Tai Tzu was as common as TKD schools are today. Just becasue he was exposed to Tai Tzu, and Chen style is also built on Tai Tzu, does not mean Chen got thier techniques from Qi Jiguan's book….”

My “qualified conclusion” (aka: “humble opinion”; “best guess” :)) based on my research thus far is that both General Qi as well as the CHEN clan as well as many others took the TAIZU material and bent it to their purposes. Nothing new about that in the MA world and I can say the same for the Korean MYTBTJ. However, it remains that an important part of Korean tradition is respected if we can begin to put a method with the labels as they might have been used early-on rather than how they have come to used today. Thoughts?

BTW: Is it even possible to find “TAIZU 32” as it might have been executed, say around 1750 to 1800? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

This is precisely where I am at in my research. You are the third person I have met to invoke the “Shaolin 32” set of the Taizu LF tradition, though I have also had it presented to me as the “Taizu 32 Postures” of the Shaolin tradition. Either way I am given to believe that the methods are similar, and sometimes nearly identical while the labels may vary. This is where I think that the use of Qing Mandarin Characters as compared to traditional Korean Hanja would be a huge help. Still, you are very right that even if the labels might be sorted-out there is still the matter that the methods identified by those terms may vary considerably. This is why I have been so keen to focus on the TAIZU and CHEN material of the second half of the 18th century.
Certainly there might be some resources from that time which would reflect the execution of a method of a given name, yes?

Reply]
You would have to ask Sal Canzonieri. He would be the guy who would know the resources.


My “qualified conclusion” (aka: “humble opinion”; “best guess” ) based on my research thus far is that both General Qi as well as the CHEN clan as well as many others took the TAIZU material and bent it to their purposes. Nothing new about that in the MA world and I can say the same for the Korean MYTBTJ. However, it remains that an important part of Korean tradition is respected if we can begin to put a method with the labels as they might have been used early-on rather than how they have come to used today. Thoughts?

Reply]
I am not sure exactly what you are saying, but Tai Tzu was spread on a "MASSIVE" scale when soldiers returned home from thier tours of duty (Assuming they lived through it). Most Tai Tzu of this nature is Tai Tzu Hong Quan, not Tai Tzu Chang Chuan...although both styles have the same core roots, and share a large number of techniques.

Tai Tzu Hong Quan is just a collection of various techniques form the varied styles practiced by the Song's military. It's not a set system, as each Garrison had thier own flavor, and mix of a number of core styles.


Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is what the Emperor Zhao, Kuang Yin distilled from the arts that also comprised the Hong Quan. It's basically all his favorite techniques only done with a more internal twist. It is the original Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that descended from the Emperors system (Through his Generals) that Chen style is built on, not the military Tai Tzu Hong Quan...Although, you see that as an influence too...but then the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Quan share so many moves, it's hard to say for sure which art they came from.

BTW: Is it even possible to find “TAIZU 32” as it might have been executed, say around 1750 to 1800? Thoughts?

Reply]
I know the form, as does Sal Canzonieri (He is actually the one who showed me the authentic version). From what I can tell, anything from Zhao Kuang Yin was carefully preserved as is because it is considered sacred.

The most direct sets are the Lao Hong sets, as they came direct form Zhao Kuang Yin, and not his Generals.

Here are a few clips of the Shaolin 32. Tye are abridged, done externally for show, and marked of course, but you get the general shape of the set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw-qCSCAlHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFJQqdeLVk&mode=related&search=

The above sets are like looking back in time to the Primordial Tai Chi...It's Tai Chi, before there was Tai Chi.

[Royal Dragon]

This set (As far as I can tell) is more representative of the Shandong Tai Tzu Hong Quan style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8

The sets above are from the Nanjng Kuoshou institute. I have heard they developed it, AND it was just imported from Shandong....the jury is still out on this set. It seems to be made up of common Tai Tzu Hong Quan techniques though.

Here is another set, supposedly from the same Shandong based system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb1znn33EJM&mode=related&search=

I have seen this set elsewhere besides the sound effects guy above, but I don't fully know it's story. All I have been told is it is from Shandong and is part of a much larger system. It may, or may not be connected to the first set. I originally thought it was, but I have some questions now.

[Bruce W Sims]

“……I know the form, as does Sal Canzonieri (He is actually the one who showed me the authentic version). From what I can tell, anything from Zhao Kuang Yin was carefully preserved as is because it is considered sacred……”

Is the material that you learned from Sal

a.) A single, long “spirit form”
b.) A set of three “spirit forms”
c.) A string of related techniques organized under the term TAIZU Long Fist but not intended to actually be executed as a spirit form?
d.) Best described as a TAIZU HONG rather than TAIZU CHANG QUAN material?

Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

I actually learned the form from another person, Sal just tuned me in with the missing moves, and various corrections between the version I was doing, and the authentic version when he was in town preforming.

As the post above showed, THIS is the set I learned----->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw-qCSCAlHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFJQ...elated&search=

It is the first section of the form. This section is often known as the "Original 32 move form" and is the Tai Tzu set that is the basis of Chen style Taiji.

It's plain to see, just order a copy of Sal's article from the magazine, he goes though posture, by posture.

a.) A single, long “spirit form”
b.) A set of three “spirit forms”

Reply]
I have no idea what you mean by "Spirit forms"


c.) A string of related techniques organized under the term TAIZU Long Fist but not intended to actually be executed as a spirit form?

Reply]
This is an actual formal routine developed in the 960's AD. It's the foundational set of the style Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the basis of Chen Taiji.

d.) Best described as a TAIZU HONG rather than TAIZU CHANG QUAN material

Reply]
See above...it is THE 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form that begins the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan system. It's not the Tai Tzu Hong Quan. It is the actual Emperor's personal system as taught to Shaolin by the Generals he sent to teach the monks over a 3 year period, and he himself personally during his 1 year stay at Shaolin later.

Tai Tzu Hong Quan is said to be what the Military of the early Sung dynasty was doing, and is really a mix of the various military systems of the time. It's a different style.

[r.(shaolin)]

Sal wrote: Well, that's the Chang San Feng story, isn't it?
He was the lay follower that went to Wudang and developed TJQ and whose grandstudents spread it in Henan Province.

You are right and I agree that this may well have been just a legend. I would only add that I believe that this legend is older than Tang Hao, Henning, et al indicate. Henning states that " The origins of this myth cannot be traced back earlier than its appearance in the popular novel, Travels of Lao Can, written between 1904 and 1907."
Well, that is simply is not true. That legend was known in the 1800's and very likely in the 1700's.
By the way in our version of the legend only the art of the sword is associated with Zhang Sanfeng.


Sal wrote: I think that it wasn't really Chang Seng Feng but the person who ran the Qianzhi Temple who is the real person that did this.
BUT< he had said he had a taoist teacher who taught him the 13 Postures set.


Sal wrote: Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 (614-741), or Li Daozi 李道子, who well studied the Three Teachings, Qianjin yifang 千金翼方 “Revised Prescriptions Worth a Thousand Pieces of Gold,” daoyin 導引 “guiding and pulling” and tunai 吐納 “expelling the old breath and drawing the new.” Based on the stone tablet inscriptions provided in Qu’s article, Shi Li’s art accentuates: “Don’t be bully of futileness, the pugilism is for life and health. The softness overcomes the hardness, give up yourself and follow the opponent 勿為霸腐 拳為民生 以柔克剛 舍己從人.” (Qu Jian; Li Xiangyi).

Basically I understand you to say that the "person who ran the Qianzhi Temple" learned this 13 Posture set from an unidentified Taoist teacher.

Whether Chang Seng Feng (Zhang Sanfeng) had anything to do or is connected with this set's tradition is beside the point because it appears that Qu Jian and Li Xiangyi are just talking about the Three Doctrines and not about the development of this set. The "Three Teachings" was a concept that became popular during the T'ang dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD) of combining Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism.


Sal wrote: A comparison really needs to be made between Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan 13 Gong and the 13 Postures Set.

I strongly suspect that the so called Shaolin Rou Quan is a recent addition to Shaolin
and may well have been added by a lay Shaolin student before it arrived to present day Shaolin. In older times once sets were adopted by Shaolin they were not based on the number 13.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

You are right and I agree that this may well have been just a legend. I would only add that I believe that this legend is older than Tang Hao, Henning, et al indicate. Henning states that " The origins of this myth cannot be traced back earlier than its appearance in the popular novel, Travels of Lao Can, written between 1904 and 1907."
Well, that is simply is not true. That legend was known in the 1800's and very likely in the 1700's.
By the way in our version of the legend only the art of the sword is associated with Zhang Sanfeng.

Basically I understand you to say that the "person who ran the Qianzhi Temple" learned this 13 Posture set from an unidentified Taoist teacher.

Whether Chang Seng Feng (Zhang Sanfeng) had anything to do or is connected with this set's tradition is beside the point because it appears that Qu Jian and Li Xiangyi are just talking about the Three Doctrines and not about the development of this set. The "Three Teachings" was a concept that became popular during the T'ang dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD) of combining Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism.



I strongly suspect that the so called Shaolin Rou Quan is a recent addition to Shaolin
and may well have been added by a lay Shaolin student before it arrived to present day Shaolin. In older times once sets were adopted by Shaolin they were not based on the number 13.

r.

No I wasn't saying that Shi Li learned them from a wandering Taoist, the opposite in face; I have read elsewhere in Chinese articles that artifacts from Qianzhi temple state the during the 600s, Shi Li created the 13 Tong Bei Gong (skills or exercises). It's not a set but, like in Tai Ji Quan theory, it is 13 different Jings.

Yeah, Chang Sen Fang has been credited with this for a long time, but that is because of a series of confusions that are easily detangled, once the info is laid out on the table to be examined. Regardless of how far back the story goes, it still was pretty much impossible for him to have created the 13 Postures Gong (which became tai ji quan).

It is clear now thanks to researchers in China that Shi Li created the 13 Postures Gong and 1,000 years later Chan Wang Ting and his two Li family cousins developed what they called Taiji.

What I want to see is how the Luohan 13 Gong (again not a set, but 13 different energies, or skills, or exercises) might relate to 13 Tong Bi Gong.
(Note: People keep translating "Gong" as postures, but that is not correct, Gong really means energies, Jings, skills)

Oral history has certain ancient, Sui dynasty?, Nei Gongs, such as 6 Harmony Gongs (a series of tong bei like jings) being "Pre-Buddhist" material, that they have not been altered. Soon after the Buddhists developed 8 different Chan Yuan Gongs (Zen Circling Energies or Skills. Hui Ke, the actual main founder after Da Mo or Shaolin Chang Buddhism took these two developed the Luohan 13 Gongs. From all these the "Shaolin" / neighboring traditions developed various Rou Gong (soft skills) and sets were eventually made called Rou Quan. It is used to relax your bones and muscles. It requires smooth breathing to coordinate with body movements. Softness within hardness. After practicing for a long time, the Qi of Dian Tan can reach the top and bottom of the body through the meridians.

There Rou Quan sets were only taught to the oldest people at Shaolin, not the martial monks but a health enhancing set, with self defense as a by product of the health part. It was for the health of internal organs, preventing constipation and stagnation. There are only 3 Rou Quan sets. It's one of the longest running oral traditions in Shaolin, and all the "old" line linages from around Henan have their oldest linage heads learning.
for example, Wu Gu Lin learned this along with the Xin Yi Ba, the other oldest tradition. As did other people today who are of these lineages are:
Zhu TianShi, Mao Jing Guang, Shi Yongzhi (I think), and Liu Zhen Hai.

[r.(shaolin)]

No I wasn't saying that Shi Li learned them from a wandering Taoist, the opposite in face; I have read elsewhere in Chinese articles that artifacts from Qianzhi temple state the during the 600s, Shi Li created the 13 Tong Bei Gong (skills or exercises). It's not a set but, like in Tai Ji Quan theory, it is 13 different Jings.

Yeah, Chang Sen Fang has been credited with this for a long time, but that is because of a series of confusions that are easily detangled, once the info is laid out on the table to be examined. Regardless of how far back the story goes, it still was pretty much impossible for him to have created the 13 Postures Gong (which became tai ji quan).

Because the "Three Teachings" was a concept that was associated with the Tang dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD), crediting Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 (614-741) if this person even lived during this time becomes suspect in my mind. The stone tablet inscriptions provided in Qu’s article I believe are from the the 1700's at the earliest (correct me if I'm wrong). In other words even if collaborated, these 1700 and 1800 documents can only be considered legend, not factual history. One would need a variable Tang Dynasty artifact(s) for it to be otherwise. Furthermore it is curious that unlike "Tai Qi" and Chang Sen Fang, which are prevasive, "Qianzai Temple and priest Shi Li 十力 are rather obscure and not readily associated with other Tia Qi traditions.

Our tradition's legend make no mention of "Chang Sen Fang" aka. Zhang Sanfeng in reference to 13 Postures Gong" but rather, as I said above, to sword methods. These legends say that Zhang Sanfeng learned martial arts from his father Zhang Yiping and his grandfather, who sold medicine, all of whom were experts in the sword.

The Shaolin tradition I practice saying that "high level" sets in Shaolin use 'Wu Xing" (5 shapes) and/or Bagua. In other words in Shaolin 13 gong refers to Wu Xing + Bagua. So you can see that this is not the invention of any one person. This should not surprise since even the layout of Buddhist monasteries and establishments follow the arrangement of the eight trigrams (bagua) in accordance to the pattern of the book of Changes in the tradition of emperor Wen of Chou. You will note that in the Song dynasty octagonal Buddhist pagodas were on the increase and became the standard type of Buddhist pagoda in this period and continuing to be built up to the Ming and Qing Dynasties.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Because the "Three Teachings" was a concept that was associated with the Tang dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD) crediting Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 (614-741) becomes suspect in my mind. The stone tablet inscriptions provided in Qu’s article I believe are from the the 1700's at the earliest (correct me if I'm wrong). In other words even if collaborated, these 1700 and 1800 document can only be considered legend, not factual history. One would need a variable Tang Dynasty artifact(s) for it to be otherwise. Furthermore it is curious that unlike "Tai Qi" and Chang Sen Fang, which are pervasive, the name "Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力 is rather obscure and not readily associated with other Tai Qi traditions.

Our tradition's legend make no mention of "Chang Sen Fang" aka. Zhang Sanfeng in reference to "13 Postures Gong" but rather, as I said above, to sword methods. These legends say that Zhang Sanfeng learned martial arts from his father Zhang Yiping and his grandfather, who sold medicine, all of whom were experts in the sword.

The Shaolin tradition I practice saying that "high level" sets in Shaolin use 'Wu Xing" (5 shapes) and/or Bagua. In other words in Shaolin 13 gong refers to Wu Xing + Bagua. So you can see that this is not the invention of any one person. This should not surprise since even the layout of Buddhist monasteries and establishments follow the arrangement of the eight trigrams (bagua) in accordance to the pattern of the book of Changes in the tradition of emperor Wen of Chou. You will note that in the Song dynasty octagonal pagodas were on the increase and became the standard type of Buddhist pagoda i the his period, continuing to be build up to the Ming and Qing Dynasties.

Well, Shi Zi is much easier for me to believe (for now at least) as a founder or at least a pervayer of an internal art than all the legendary people, at least he is real, is from a definite place and time, etc. Being right between Shanxi and Henan areas, and the home of ancestral people from Hongdong Shanxi, home of tong bei and hong quan long before Shanxi people were forced to relocate to Henan villages.

Hmm, yes, Wudang based internal martial arts, do indeed share their primary attributes in Sword fighting techniques, especially the Double Swords material. And so do the internal aspects of Shanxi area "tong bei" arise out of the double swords techniques.
So, makes sense that Chang Sen Feng's tradition story has roots in sword as well.
Sword us methodology has traditionally been associated with Taoist people.

The 13 Tong Bei Gong from Qianzi (like Taijiquan) consists of:
The 8 gates (Ba Gua), which are Peng, Lu, Ji, An = Four Primary Hands (Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, and Push) / the 4 straight directions (of Kuan, Li, Zhen, and Dui ).
All together = Grasp the Bird’s Tail. 掤, 履, 挤, 按
and Tsai, Lieh, Chou, Kao = the Four Corner Hands (Pull Down, Split, Elbow, and Shoulder) / the 4 diagonal directions (of Qian, Kun, Gen, and Xun ).
Also, The 5 elements, (aka the 5 shapes, Wu Xing) are Jin, Tui, Gu, Pan, and Ding = stepping forward, backward, to the left – sideway forward, to the right – sideway backwards, and staying in place.
Elements = Water; Fire; Wood, Metal, and Earth.
The first eight are about Shou fa - hand skills; and the last five are about Bu fa - footwork skills.

So too are the Shaolin 13 Gong, correct?

The Luohan 13 Gong are essentially the same concepts as above, for sure, in the execution of its 13 jings.

Still makes me want to research the relationship between Luohan 13 Gong and Shi Li's 13 Tong Bei Gong.

All the Rou Quan material that came out of Luohan 13 Gong (8 Jings + 5 Xings), 6 Harmony Gong (6 Jings), and Chan Yuan Gong (8 jings) are so much like what became known as Chen/Zhao Bao, Yang, Wu (Yang + Zhao Bao), and Woo Taiji Quan styles that it is uncanny!
There is nothing in these Shaolin nei gongs that is not covered in taijiquan and vice versa.
There must be a reason.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hmm, yes, Wudang based internal martial arts, do indeed share their primary attributes in Sword fighting techniques, especially the Double Swords material. And so do the internal aspects of Shanxi area "tong bei" arise out of the double swords techniques.

So, makes sense that Chang Sen Feng's tradition story has roots in sword as well.
Sword us methodology has traditionally been associated with Taoist people.

I would point out that the sword, and sword gestures, are important signifiers within Buddhism and it is therefore not surpising that the sword (劍 jian) is an important weapon within Shaolin, at least in the tradition I practice. Double swords, according to our legends, were brought to Shaolin by Feng Ming 鳳鳴 and subsequently monks called it "鳳鳴雙劍". What has been passed on to our ancestors is that jian 劍 methods came to Shaolin from two sources: Wudang and monk Qiu Yue Chan Shi (秋月禪師). Shaolin Seven Star sword (chin.: Shaolin Qi Xing Jian 少林七星劍) for an example, as evidenced by the name (i.e. seven stars of the big dipper) clearly suggests that this set was absorbed from the outside and as our legends say from Wudang.





The first eight are about Shou fa - hand skills; and the last five are about Bu fa - footwork skills.

The character ‘xing’, as used in Shaolin wu xing (chin.: 少林五形), is not the same as used in “wu xing” (chin.: 五行) which refers to the so called “5 elements” of fire, earth, air (metal) and water. Having said that, because “Wu xing” (chin.: 五行) is a pervasive concept within Chinese thought and Buddhism it is manifest in various elements of Shaolin – not just footwork skills. “Wu xing” (chin.: 五行) is also represensted within “Wu xing” (chin.: 五形) and is even symbolically represented within the opening and closing gestures of all Shaolin sets within the "Shiwuwei Yin" (abhaya mudra) were the five fingers symbolize “Wu xing” (chin.: 五行).

r.

[Royal Dragon]

All the Rou Quan material that came out of Luohan 13 Gong (8 Jings + 5 Xings), 6 Harmony Gong (6 Jings), and Chan Yuan Gong (8 jings) are so much like what became known as Chen/Zhao Bao, Yang, Wu (Yang + Zhao Bao), and Woo Taiji Quan styles that it is uncanny!
There is nothing in these Shaolin nei gongs that is not covered in taijiquan and vice versa.
There must be a reason

Reply]
Sure, they ALL share a common root. Maybe ultimately Tai Tzu shares this root too, and Chen Taiji did not come from Tai Tzu, btut both came from a more primitive forbearer?. Maybe all this related stuff actually came from a much older Taoist tradition?

[r.(shaolin)]

Prior to the Sung dynasty, those styles all were formless, and just collections of loose techniques and their usage.

Hi Royal Dragon,

If I understand what you are saying, at one level this makes sense, that is, on first blush – single techniques and single applications are more 'primitive' or 'elemental ' therefore a earlier development.I believe it is just the opposite, and would suggest that core principles/postures and such as "13 postures" or sets like Tan Toi are a relativity recent developments. More complex choreographed sets pre-date the Song period (although these performances became common among civilians during the Song Dynasty) were based on 'storytelling' (i.e. re-enactments) not core principles.

r.

[Bruce W Sims]

I am probably going to get shouted-down for this, but what I have found is that the sophisticated training material seems to represent an embellished system that over-trains a person to perform the "bread-and-butter" material at a higher level of effectiveness. What I mean is that a form or drill may require a person to strain for years to accomplish some exotic technique. However, its not that the person would actually USE that technique though there might be an outside chance that they might. Rather the idea is that if a person can ultimately accomplish the highly sophisticated material with reasonable effectiveness, then the more fundamental material will come with no thought at all.

Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Royal Dragon]

If I understand Shaolin history correctly, Forms were developed in the very beginning of the Sung dynasty.

Prior to that, it was all loose Techniques because function was what mattered in a savage world.

As time rolled on, forms slowly became more popular. By the Ming, they became more wide spread. By the Qing and modern times they became so over loaded that Kung Fu went into a major decline and in may instances is lost and useless today.\

I think back at the inception of Forms, they were a good thing in accordance with thier original intents. Later, they became a bit more useful as a type of a training method, but that is where the use of forms peeked. After that point they became over used and sent Kung Fu into a decline.

[Bruce W Sims]

If I understand Shaolin history correctly, Forms were developed in the very beginning of the Sung dynasty.

Prior to that, it was all loose Techniques because function was what mattered in a savage world.

As time rolled on, forms slowly became more popular. By the Ming, they became more wide spread. By the Qing and modern times they became so over loaded that Kung Fu went into a major decline and in may instances is lost and useless today.\

I think back at the inception of Forms, they were a good thing in accordance with thier original intents. Later, they became a bit more useful as a type of a training method, but that is where the use of forms peeked. After that point they became over used and sent Kung Fu into a decline.

Could be. I would also throw-out another possibility.

Perhaps the individual techniques were found to be relatively easy to remember. However, as systems became larger and more sophisiticated it might be that a page was taken from the folks dances of local communities or culture. In a world where illiteracy was over 90%, being able to pass information from generation to generation in un-written fashion would have been key, yes?

For myself, though, I am still having problems with the transmission across the centuries. We have modern sources telling us that what we are doing has ancient roots. However, I am struck by how little such material is found documented in day-to-day records of the times. For instance, if someone was to survey printed material of the last three hundred years there would be regular mention of Boxing, and Bare-knuckles fighting. I wonder where these references are going back to the 18th century and before. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Sal Canzonieri]

If I understand Shaolin history correctly, Forms were developed in the very beginning of the Sung dynasty.

Prior to that, it was all loose Techniques because function was what mattered in a savage world.

As time rolled on, forms slowly became more popular. By the Ming, they became more wide spread. By the Qing and modern times they became so over loaded that Kung Fu went into a major decline and in may instances is lost and useless today.\

I think back at the inception of Forms, they were a good thing in accordance with thier original intents. Later, they became a bit more useful as a type of a training method, but that is where the use of forms peeked. After that point they became over used and sent Kung Fu into a decline.

I dont' agree that forms (sets, kata, tao lu, etc) became "over used and sent KF into a decline" nor "By the Qing and modern times they became so over loaded that Kung Fu went into a major decline and in may instances is lost and useless today."
That makes no sense, especially during the Qing Dynasty and up into the 70s.

Forms are a memorization device, and each one teaches a different strategy of applying the concepts inside a particular style. Nowhere til the 80s anywhere did KF schools teach forms at the expense of fundamentals.
Forms are the most important part of a system, as long as you know the fundamentals of that system and can do the foundational material, then you can do any forms in that system. What you learned with forms is the strategy of how to apply the ideas. Forms are a way for the founders of the style to speak to you in a lesson from the past. Forms are to be done last, to be used to meditate on what the lessons are from the movements and for their movements to be ingrained in your body so that they flow in and out of you naturally, like you learn to ride a bike or any other skill. Forms help you develop and maintain skills.

Now after 1980s, there are some schools in the Western world and in China that just teach forms.
Mostly because people started not having enough time to spend years on establishing a foundation.

That's not a problem with forms, that's a problem with the teachers.
If KF sucks it's because teachers suck, plain and simple.
You can't blame forms.
That's like blaming guns existing instead of the people who use them to kill others instead of for self defense.

If people don't have proper body mechanics they can't do anything of substance anyways.

And applications are not set in stone. Movements in sets, since all Chinese martial arts movements are both offense and defense simultaneously, can be used in almost all circumstances. There are no exact applications for a movement, there are many many depending on what is happening, so forms movements are about strategy mostly that depend on the fundamentals to make them effective (such as stepping patterns, body positioning, etc)

----------------------------

About loose techniques:

Sets became more established during the song and after, but that does not mean that none existed before that.
There were short sets practiced, which were strings of drills, both for weapons like the sword and the spear. Taoists used sets like these way back into 7th century at the least. The Tang military had Red Fist and White Hammer drill sets.

Shaolin created the first long sets for exam purposes.

The military had drills that were used for weapons training that were applied to empty hands if you dropped your weapon. Such as Chin-na applications and takedowns done with the same drill movements for weapons.

Wandering martial artists used their favorite loose techniques that they picked up by sparring with other martial artists.
Some came from military origins and some from village folk origins (from manual labor and farming origins).
Some came from dance origins.

All martial arts from before the 1980s were weapons experts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Could be. I would also throw-out another possibility.

Perhaps the individual techniques were found to be relatively easy to remember. However, as systems became larger and more sophisiticated it might be that a page was taken from the folks dances of local communities or culture. In a world where illiteracy was over 90%, being able to pass information from generation to generation in un-written fashion would have been key, yes?

For myself, though, I am still having problems with the transmission across the centuries. We have modern sources telling us that what we are doing has ancient roots. However, I am struck by how little such material is found documented in day-to-day records of the times. For instance, if someone was to survey printed material of the last three hundred years there would be regular mention of Boxing, and Bare-knuckles fighting. I wonder where these references are going back to the 18th century and before. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

They came from Quan Bu, manuals that were kept in the family or passed to linage holders of a style. There are quan bu in many styles that have been passed on from person to person that were written way before the 18th century. Many of these are in museums in China because they were taken by the government as national treasures during the 1980s surveys.


Also, from military training manuals. There are people that collect them, there are one from the song dynasty and tang dynasty. One was found hidden underground inside a pig's bladder. One that I read about stated that a Taoist martial art master was brought in to improve the troops efficiency and effectiveness (since Taoists were among the best sword fighters and martial artists).

AND, they came from oral transmissions from one generation to another. You can't discount oral material just because it was not written material. Many of the oral transmissions have data that can be verified historically in local written records (such as gazettes, etc).

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, Sal:

Good thoughts to be sure.

Have any authorities surveyed the manuals that you are citing so as to validate their age?

I know that here in the West, if someone were to come up with yet another Guttenberg Bible, there would be a host of tests to verify the authenticity of the work including paper type, ink type, and the nature of the type itself.

For myself, I get concerned when some pivotal work turns up somewhere---like in a Salt Shop ( :) ) Currently it is astounding how many Ming Era swords are turning up in the markets and on E-BAY with suspiciously uniform patina. Before we start putting too much faith in these manuals shouldn't someone be checking the authenticity? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[r.(shaolin)]

In primitive societies weapon dances were used to simulate, recall, or reenact combat or the moves of combat for both training and ceremonial purposes. This ancient practice is still common in folk ritual in many parts of the world and can be traced back even to ancient Sparta, were weapon dances were used in ritual training for battle. In China of antiquity 11 centuries B.C., it was recorded that King Wu 周武王 (1048 BC) created fighting methods into dance called Xiang Wu 象舞. These dances became the core method of military training. These reenactments were a kind of storytelling. Analytical systemization such as core principles were I believe a later more sophisticated development.

Sword dancing has a very ancient history in China and was directly connected to martial arts. There are even records of a female sword dancer being asked to teach soldiers sword routines 500 B.C. By the Tang Dynasty, sword sets and routines were well established and even described in poetry during this time period.

Story telling is one of the most ancient methods of passing on knowledge from one generation to the next in ancient times. Although primitive and very ancient, this approach has come to be seen some modern trainers as a highly effective approach because it works at a deeper level than just repetition or simplification. Stories make people act; they are a core and compact ways of integrating lots of information. There is a lot of work being done on why mental simulations work. This is why SWAT training involves scenarios. One of the most surprising observations by researches has been that mental simulation can also build skills and in fact mental practice alone produces about two thirds of the benefits of actual physical practice. The story's power, is two fold. It provides simulation (how to act) and emotion (motivation) to act. Basically, the (not so) primitive war dance was very effective training :-)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That's not a problem with forms, that's a problem with the teachers.
If KF sucks it's because teachers suck, plain and simple.
You can't blame forms

Reply]
I am not saying the forms are at fault, I am saying the over use of them is (which by proxy would make it the teachers fault).

when a large amount of schools spend endless time on forms where you learn *Maybe 3-4* applications of a 54 move set, then on to the next set, learning 10 forms to make black sash in 3 years, that is what I am talking about.

This trend, (From what I can see) started at the advent of commercial schools where more forms=more money. This would place the trend's beginning in the Qing dynasty.

Over all, Kung Fu IS in a decline today, because of the over use of forms, and lack of actual learning of techniques and thier usage in a two man environment. There are a VAST amount of Kung Fu schools that really can't fight well at all. MMA has proven this.

I am not saying there are not still old school lines where the teachings is still good, but that there are so many bad ones now that the forms choreography schools are the norm, and the actual good ones where things are still taught right are the exception.

[Bruce W Sims]

".................Over all, Kung Fu IS in a decline today, because of the over use of forms, and lack of actual learning of techniques and thier usage in a two man environment. There are a VAST amount of Kung Fu schools that really can't fight well at all. MMA has proven this..............."

I tend to agree and I lay the blame at the teacher's doorstep because they do not know how to appropriately integrate forms work with the rest of their material. As a teacher I am finding a number of reasons for this but the biggest one is the student not pulling his weight. What I mean is this.

The students are not practicing the material on their own time.

Conditioning and refreshing "muscle memory" is the responsibility of the student. That is one huge piece of what forms work is about. However, most of my students seem to think they can get everything done in the class. Sorry, it does not work that way. The class is the place where the teacher should be able to spend time focused on the applications and practicality of the art. Instead, what I find is that people are not stretching, working on their strength training, range-of-motion, bags and targets, kicks and so forth. Why is this? Because they think that they can get it all done in class, when every important teacher known has supported the idea that MA is a WAY OF LIFE. As far as I am concerned if a person does not make time each day to work on their material a little bit they would be better off taking up Golf or Soccer. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

.
What you learned with forms is the strategy of how to apply the ideas.

Reply]
Yes and no. That depends on what you mean by "Forms" If you are just talking baout doing the choreography, no. If you are talking about mastering each technique in fighting *outsidfe of the form's standard Choreography", then yes.

When I say forms, I mean strictly the choreography of the set. You can not learn how to use the techniques by perfroming the choreography. If that were true, I'd be unbeatable by now.

The strategy, and how to apply the ideas are learned in the twoman (drills, sparring, competitive fighting etc..) practice of the techniques contained in the form...which one could argue is learning the form, which is why I specify form choreography.

Forms are a way for the founders of the style to speak to you in a lesson from the past. Forms are to be done last, to be used to meditate on what the lessons are from the movements and for their movements to be ingrained in your body so that they flow in and out of you naturally, like you learn to ride a bike or any other skill. Forms help you develop and maintain skills.

Reply]
I agree to an extent. I see them more as ways to record the techniques, refine body mechanics developed by the solo drills, and maintain conditioning. They do contain lessons form the past. I have had moments of clarity where solutions to problems have been found by practicing the choreography, but I have found similar solutions much more often by doing twoman drills and sparring.

Repteady performing the forms choreography over, and over again cannot teach you any fighting skills. Styles today are so over loaded with forms, and form practice that Kung Fu over all (Except for a few rare pockets) is in a major decline.


It is pretty wide spread.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Conditioning and refreshing "muscle memory" is the responsibility of the student. That is one huge piece of what forms work is about. However, most of my students seem to think they can get everything done in the class. Sorry, it does not work that way. The class is the place where the teacher should be able to spend time focused on the applications and practicality of the art. Instead, what I find is that people are not stretching, working on their strength training, range-of-motion, bags and targets, kicks and so forth. Why is this? Because they think that they can get it all done in class, when every important teacher known has supported the idea that MA is a WAY OF LIFE. As far as I am concerned if a person does not make time each day to work on their material a little bit they would be better off taking up Golf or Soccer. FWIW.

Reply]
So, spend the first half of class conditioning, stretching and drilling basics, and the second half working the techniques in partnered pairs and don't teach them the form untill they are getting ready to test for the next level.

Forms were originally like a diploma anyway, use them the way they were originally designed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is all going to go on to a topic that has been talked to death.

Looks at this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCj7sLKSzHI

and tell him that forms are no good.

In my opinion, based on learning KF since the 70s, the old way,
it is precisely because people do not truly understand and know how to use forms that they suck at their KF.

Enough said.

You can start yet another thread complaining about other schools and how they are no good and ruining KF.

My thread is about Hong Quan.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In my opinion, based on learning KF since the 70s, the old way,
it is precisely because people do not truly understand and know how to use forms that they suck at their KF.

Reply]
We need more like you.

And you are right, I sort of side tracked the conversation. Sorry.

And I never said forms are no good...only excessive practice of them when old school guys like you would have actually been working applications, that is all. Forms are a great tool in thier own context. They just don't replace all the other stuff you are supposed to be doing.

Anyway, back to the topic...I'd like to hear more about the old manuals, especially if there are any that document ancient Hong Fist in Shandong.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This one is really nice too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6b11JlU&mode=related&search=

[Bruce W Sims]

Sorry, Sal; you are right, of course. There is no reason to discuss something that gets talked to death on a regular basis. This thread is about HONG QUAN.

One small piece of research ought to be about how material was maintained, promoted, fostered and developed and my sense is that those forms or methods which did not keep pace with advances in the Society probably were dropped or relegated to the more artistic or conditioning side of a given art. Personally, I think the greatest blow came when Chinese Society found that many of their beliefs simply did not hold-up against the military technology of Western incursions. Can you imagine the trauma to the culture when practices such as "Golden Bell" could not protect folks from bullets as respected elders had indicated? Funny thing is, that this "cultural trauma" never gets talked about . Many times it seems as though Chinese Martial Traditions somehow developed and survived an a kind of "magic" place in time and space. There were a great number of events that took place in Chinese History but none of these had any effect, or only had positive effects on MA development.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I sense that somewhere in the background there has been some tinkering and I am thinking that it has been along the lines of nationalistic causes. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sorry, Sal; you are right, of course. There is no reason to discuss something that gets talked to death on a regular basis. This thread is about HONG QUAN.

One small piece of research ought to be about how material was maintained, promoted, fostered and developed and my sense is that those forms or methods which did not keep pace with advances in the Society probably were dropped or relegated to the more artistic or conditioning side of a given art. Personally, I think the greatest blow came when Chinese Society found that many of their beliefs simply did not hold-up against the military technology of Western incursions. Can you imagine the trauma to the culture when practices such as "Golden Bell" could not protect folks from bullets as respected elders had indicated? Funny thing is, that this "cultural trauma" never gets talked about . Many times it seems as though Chinese Martial Traditions somehow developed and survived an a kind of "magic" place in time and space. There were a great number of events that took place in Chinese History but none of these had any effect, or only had positive effects on MA development.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I sense that somewhere in the background there has been some tinkering and I am thinking that it has been along the lines of nationalistic causes. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Well, Chinese invented guns to deal with martial artists.
They've been shooting martial artists a long time before the Boxer Rebellion.

The big bodyguard companies lost a lot of clout once guns were easily obtainable and they had to train in their use after that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This one is really nice too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6b11JlU&mode=related&search=

This one is Xiao Hong Quan applications, cool!

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/6898424-1295091574-1.html

Use this one, it works better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some hard to find Song Tai Zu Chang Quan sets:

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/1212250-1256977671.html

there are more there if you do a search.

[Royal Dragon]

The second link looks like the first section from the long form, from this VCD------------------> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_taitzu.htm

[Sal Canzonieri]

The second link looks like the first section from the long form, from this VCD------------------> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_taitzu.htm

Yeah, it's both sections actually, pretty much the same as in those vcds.
Not same person, slightly different movements, different flavor, but the same two sets.

[Royal Dragon]

So this set is around then. We need to find out what it is exactly. Is it some village Long Fist named after Tai Tzu and Shaolin? Or is it something that actually came out of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chua directly?

[Sal Canzonieri]

So this set is around then. We need to find out what it is exactly. Is it some village Long Fist named after Tai Tzu and Shaolin? Or is it something that actually came out of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chua directly?

Hmm, well, since it has the opening salute of Shandong Long Fist, and the second section is pretty much all mantis:
it is possible that these sets are from that Tai Tzu Mantis style that is indeed found in Shandong.
Kinda like the Shandong Xiao Hu Yan set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo

[Royal Dragon]

How can we verify that?

[Sal Canzonieri]

How can we verify that?

I posted a thread just now in N Mantis area asking for info on the TZ Mantis style, let's see if anyone can shed some more light.

There's a lot of Shandong material in these two sections, that is obvious.

But, the second Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set starts out with the same salute that all the Shandong long fist people do, so maybe that's where it originated from.

Need to see some TZ Mantis sets to compare with these two sections.

I should upload to youtube these two sections and ask the mantis people to look at it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

[Royal Dragon]

Are you planning to put the Tai Tzu forms you posted on emptyflower on Youtube too?

[Bruce W Sims]

I thought I would submit this, just for fun.

The material from the KWON BUP chapter of the MYTBTJ is said to be that of General Qi's Boxing Canon. However, the Koreans did not keep the same order, nor did they use all of the Boxing methods from the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU. Further, in the middle of the chapter, the methods move from single execution to 2-person execution. This was never well-favored by the Koreans themselves, but has at least been well-regarded by historians lately as an appreciation for the General's injunctions about training needing to be more than mere "spirit form".

I came across this on YOU TUBE among a number of clips for SIPPALKI. Were someone to take the flavor of the KWON BUP material and update it into a comprehensive 2-person form it would probably look very much like this. I imagine that people better-schooled in Chinese traditions will be able to pick-out individual methods. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWaJUtXGDo

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal, and RD,

The techniques in both these sets are not unlike those found in traditional Shaolin long fist however neither the set structure or the ending (sun noon) salute are typical of traditional Shaolin sets. As well, from my view Shaolin long fist sets are more compact, with less 'running around', then in these sets - particularly in the second set.

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/1212250-1256977671.html

Do you know anything about this history of the school this set comes from?
r.

[Royal Dragon]

The set you linked to is the same set from these VCD

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_taitzu.htm

When it first came out, I did some asking around, and found that Jerek from the "China From Inside" site has a contact that knows the master form the VCD.

He told me that master is based out of Shanghai, but the sets came from somewhere else.

Unfortunetly the inquiry never went any further than that as other research paths opened up on other Tai Tzu aspects at the time, and this one got pushed to the back burner.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal, and RD,

The techniques in both these sets are not unlike those found in traditional Shaolin long fist however neither the set structure or the ending (sun noon) salute are typical of traditional Shaolin sets. As well, from my view Shaolin long fist sets are more compact, with less 'running around, then in these sets - particularly in the second set.

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/1212250-1256977671.html

Do you know anything about this history of the school this set comes form?
r.

I'm trying to find out whatever I can, supposedly the person that is on the vcds (not this video you posted) is FIFTH generation head, which doesn't go that far back, what's that about 100 years ago? Early 1900s? A generation is 20 years?

Well, I will post him doing the 2 sets on youtube when I get the chance in the next few days, he does the sets a lot clearer and a lot slower than this guys does.
(Wonder if he is a student of his or from a different lineage?)

I just find these sets weird and something historically and stylistically not working with all the Shaolin I have learned or seen before.

All I have been able to find is:

Master Li Cheng Xiang (李承祥) is a 5th generation inheritor of Shaolin Taizhu Branch. He is also the President of HaErBin City Wushu Club. He also is a Yang TJQ teacher.
(Isn't that Manchuria?)

[r.(shaolin)]

Master Li Cheng Xiang (李承祥) is a 5th generation inheritor of Shaolin Taizhu Branch. He is also the President of HaErBin City Wushu Club. He also is a Yang TJQ teacher.


I just find these sets weird and something historically and stylistically not working with all the Shaolin I have learned or seen before.

Hi Sal,
I agree. Is this the same person?
http://www.chinabaike.com/article/sort0525/sort0543/2007/20070801157041.html

r.

[Royal Dragon]

Sal, have you talked to Jarek about this set, and the master from those commercial DVDs?

He may be able to get you in contact with him.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
I agree. Is this the same person?
http://www.chinabaike.com/article/sort0525/sort0543/2007/20070801157041.html

r.

yes, that's the person on the 3 vcd set.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

I kind of figured that.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

I kind of figured that.
r.

No, no, no, I was just kidding.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself, the photo was too funny, ha.

No, the guy on the VCD is slimmer and so on, I am trying to get it to fit on youtube and will post the two sets. The guy from the vcds does it much more clearer.
It would be good to compare the two links once I post it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, here is Li doing Set #2, the one that has the various N Mantis movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g

[Sal Canzonieri]

And here is Li doing set #1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkoWAo3yWeo

In this one, the very end (whirlwind kicks to Shoot Bow position) is the same as the endings in the Shaolin Lao Hong Quan sets do.

[Royal Dragon]

Could Tai Tzu hongquan be considered any Shandong longfist mixed with Tai Tzu from Shaolin?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Could Tai Tzu hongquan be considered any Shandong longfist mixed with Tai Tzu from Shaolin?

Well, there is the documented SHAOLIN Tai Tzu Hong Quan, which you've seen all the sets.

Then, there is a load of stuff called TZ Hong Quan from Shandong area.

What is it? Is it called TZ to just mean "ancestral"? I think so, the ancestor being shaolin.
Because after the 1730-60s, when various monks left Shaolin Henan area and went to Shandong, they brought with them what was being practiced at there time they left: Shaolin
Jingang quan, Er Lang Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan.

(the Jingang Quan went on to be a big influence on the "Northern Shaolin" 10 sets)

Wang Zu Ping not only learned Shaolin Quan from some of these ex-monks, but also he was versed in the Moslem Cha/Hua/Hong system as well.
Also, during that time in Shandong, the Fan family bodyguard company was learning Hong Quan from these ex-monks as well, mixing it with Cha System.

So, Shandong long fist styles now have merged together and people get confused when they see it.

[r.(shaolin)]

No, no, no, I was just kidding.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself, the photo was too funny, ha.

:-))))) that guy with glasses is too cool :-))) he's a dance prof. . Maybe that where Daniel Clowes got the glasses idea for his Enid character :-))))


These look more like traditional sets than the other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkoWAo3yWeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g


However, these two sets have more resemblance in terms technques to the way we do Xiao Hong Chang Quan, Da Hong Chang Quan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B8Ed1-xIUY&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUt9rt32hk&mode=related&search=Shaolin&#37;20Tai%20Zu%20Quan%20Section%202%20E r%20Lu

Our verbal legends say that Xiao Hong Chang Quan, Da Hong Chang Quan were sets developed by Zhao Kuangyin (the first Song Emperor).
One other thought, the use of the name Taizu as in the name of a set to my mind implies that these styles were developed sometime after when Zhao Kuangyin was alive, because Taizu is a posthumous temple name.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about the Shaolin Hong Quan sets that old Li Sou was said to have given Shaolin as a gift, during the Yuan dynasty? (Bai Yu Feng's friend), what are they?

Do they still exist?

I was able to track down a Luohan set that comes from Li Sou, it was animals based and very fluid, not much like the Luohan you traditionally see.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Wang Zu Ping not only learned Shaolin Quan from some of these ex-monks, but also he was versed in the Moslem Cha/Hua/Hong system as well.
Also, during that time in Shandong, the Fan family bodyguard company was learning Hong Quan from these ex-monks as well, mixing it with Cha System.

Reply]
That does seem to be a pretty accurate description of what we are looking at. I wonder if we can find someone with some person, to person documentation on those forms to cross reference?

[r.(shaolin)]

What about the Shaolin Hong Quan sets that old Li Sou was said to have given Shaolin as a gift, during the Yuan dynasty? (Bai Yu Feng's friend), what are they?

Do they still exist?

Hi Sal,
This is the first time I've heard that Li Sou brought Hong Quan to Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty - in our tradition Li Sou is not even mentioned. Where did you heard this?

It is said in our legends that Bai Yu Feng and Jue Yuan just made improvements to Hua Quan and other sets including 'Bai Ma ( and I think Black Tiger as well) which were already at Shaolin.
Our traditions holds that Shaolin Hong Quan is related to Shaolin Black Tiger fist in that northern Black Tiger Fist is based in part on Hong Quan which pre-dates it. Both Hong Quan and Hei Hu Quan were developed outsided and imported into Shaolin. Basically I think Hong Quan was at Shaolin well before the Yuan Dynasty and Bai Yu Feng, et al., and was practiced at Shaolin monastery and elsewhere for centuries.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
This is the first time I've heard that Li Sou brought Hong Quan to Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty - in our tradition Li Sou is not even mentioned. Where did you heard this?

It is said in our legends that Bai Yu Feng and Jue Yuan just made improvements to Hua Quan and other sets including 'Bai Ma ( and I think Black Tiger as well) which were already at Shaolin.
Our traditions holds that Shaolin Hong Quan is related to Shaolin Black Tiger fist in that northern Black Tiger Fist is based in part on Hong Quan which pre-dates it. Both Hong Quan and Hei Hu Quan were developed outsided and imported into Shaolin. Basically I think Hong Quan was at Shaolin well before the Yuan Dynasty and Bai Yu Feng, et al., and was practiced at Shaolin monastery and elsewhere for centuries.
r.

Info I got from Shi Degen's and Shi Dejian's people was same as what you said, plus that Li Sou was who Jue Yuan met first, and he introduced him to Bai Yu Feng.

I got sets from them showing a Luohan set that came from Li Sou, which is five animals based and pretty different from older Luohan sets.
Also, story I got was that as a gift to Shaolin, Li Sou before he left made some new Hong Quan sets from the existing material left at Shaolin. I have not been able to find out exactly what sets.

It could be that he developed the matching Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets that are familiar with people from the old Da Hong Quan and Lao Hong Quan sets that came from Zhao Kuang Yin.
Or it might be something different entirely, but I don't think so.
Those two sets are clearly newer than the old Da and Lao Hong Quan sets.

About Black Tiger, yes indeed, also have same information that Hong Quan and Black Tiger are related, in fact, Shandong Black Tiger is practically TZ Hong Quan sets. The Black Tiger posture itself is in the Shaoln TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu set, the Northern Mantis style has it in a set, and it is also found in Yu Fei Jia Quan sets.

Do you know which Hua Quan sets in particular?
Here you mean Hua as in Hua Mountain?
Not Flower or China or Glorious Boxing?
Not the Hua that is brother to Zha Quan?

[jmd161]

About Black Tiger, yes indeed, also have same information that Hong Quan and Black Tiger are related, in fact, Shandong Black Tiger is practically TZ Hong Quan sets. The Black Tiger posture itself is in the Shaoln TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu set, the Northern Mantis style has it in a set, and it is also found in Yu Fei Jia Quan sets.




Hmmm,


How much do you actually know about Shandong Black Tiger? There are so many different stories about it's existence, that you don't know what to belive. Some say it never existed, others said it's a form of Kung Tao, and yet others say it's a rare legit Northern Black Tiger style. I've even heard it resembles Golden Eagle, whatever that may be...:confused:


jeff:)

[Royal Dragon]

When confused, compared the techniques and construction to stuff we have more solid info about.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c

IMO the application shown are not long fists, Hong Quan is but rather, traditional Shaolin Monkey Fist applications. Monkey fist (Shaolin Xiao Yuan Hou 小猿猴; aka. Shaolin Hou Quan) has a long history at Shaolin.
For many generations young monks learned this style resulting in many sets and names for these techniques, however, the monkey (acting), hand and staff sets generally seen done today by young Shaolin students, again IMO, are not traditional Shaolin monkey sets and have little or no fighting applications.

r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Do you know which Hua Quan sets in particular?
Here you mean Hua as in Hua Mountain?
Not Flower or China or Glorious Boxing?
Not the Hua that is brother to Zha Quan?

The character 'hua' as in the mountain is "華山" in "China or Glorious Boxing" I think the character is also 華.
What has be passed on by my teacher and his teachers is that
that before Bai Yu Feng's time, Shaolin Hua Quan used the character '花'
which means, 'blossom' or 'flower'. In the Yuan Dynasty, when Bai Yu Feng revised these methods, the character was changed to "化" which means "to change into" or something like to 'transform'.
However we still use the character: '花'

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c

IMO the application shown are not long fists, Hong Quan is but rather, traditional Shaolin Monkey Fist applications. Monkey fist (Shaolin Xiao Yuan Hou 小猿猴; aka. Shaolin Hou Quan) has a long history at Shaolin.
For many generations young monks learned this style resulting in many sets and names for these techniques, however, the monkey (acting), hand and staff sets generally seen done today by young Shaolin students, again IMO, are not traditional Shaolin monkey sets and have little or no fighting applications.

r.

Interesting observation, of course what he is doing in application for the Xiao Hong Quan set looks like Monkey, since he is a Xin Yi Ba master, Xin Yi Ba looks and acts very much like Monkey, and
from what i heard, and I have a set of this from Degen that I gave a copy to RD to see, the original Shaolin Monkey set is a root set to TZ Hong Quan sets. This old monkey, which is nothing like modern monkey seen there now, is long fist like.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The character 'hua' as in the mountain is "華山" in "China or Glorious Boxing" I think the character is also 華.
What has be passed on by my teacher and his teachers is that
that before Bai Yu Feng's time, Shaolin Hua Quan used the character '花'
which means, 'blossom' or 'flower'. In the Yuan Dynasty, when Bai Yu Feng revised these methods, the character was changed to "化" which means "to change into" or something like to 'transform'.
However we still use the character: '花'

r.

Aha, okay, THAT makes some things a Lot clearer to me about certain sets, cool. I can date certain sets better seeing "化" versus '花' in a set name.

So, where did this '花' Hua Quan come from that Shaolin had incorporated?

There is Gan Feng Chi's '花' Quan, the hard soft style, but he's from much later times.

You don't mean the taoist 華 Hua Quan (of Hua Shan in Shaanxi) which later moved to Shandong, of the Cai family (tang dynasty)?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmmm,


How much do you actually know about Shandong Black Tiger? There are so many different stories about it's existence, that you don't know what to belive. Some say it never existed, others said it's a form of Kung Tao, and yet others say it's a rare legit Northern Black Tiger style. I've even heard it resembles Golden Eagle, whatever that may be...:confused:


jeff:)

oops, I meant to type Shaolin not Shandong, sorry.

You can see the Shaolin Black Tiger set on vcd:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html
Item Code: SL213

[richard sloan]

I really enjoyed those vids. I like to see the practical every day chore stuff that creeps into the forms, and the buddhist markers.

The sweeping of the temple, the lighting of candles and incense, etc....and here we see the double arm work from the garden tending. There is a tofu making machine, from the punching techs it must be some kind of churning device, which they used to use that built amazing punching. I've always wanted to try and track one down and take a look at it.

[jmd161]

oops, I meant to type Shaolin not Shandong, sorry.

You can see the Shaolin Black Tiger set on vcd:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html
Item Code: SL213


Hmmmm,


Have you seen this form before?


I'd be interested to see what it looks like. There was some black tiger at the temple before Soo Hak Fu created his Hak Fu Mun. There was supposed to be three fist sets and he used this to create his Hak Fu Mun along with other styles he learned at shaolin.



jeff:)

[r.(shaolin)]

Hmmmm,
Have you seen this form before?
I'd be interested to see what it looks like. There was some black tiger at the temple before Soo Hak Fu created his Hak Fu Mun. There was supposed to be three fist sets and he used this to create his Hak Fu Mun along with other styles he learned at shaolin.
jeff:)

Hi jmd,
According to the legends of our tradition, Shaolin Hei Hu Quan(少林黑虎拳) was based on a system called Hei Hu Quan 黑虎拳 from northern China. These methods were brought to Shaolin by different people. The staff technques was brought by a ‘lay’ Buddhist follower of Shaolin named Wei Wen Tong, who learned that art in his hometown in Shangdong. The three hand sets and one contact set of Shaolin Hei Hu Quan were developed by Cai Hongfa and Liang Shanyou.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi jmd,
According to the legends of our tradition, Shaolin Hei Hu Quan(少林黑虎拳) was based on a system called Hei Hu Quan 黑虎拳 from northern China. These methods were brought to Shaolin by different people. The staff technques was brought by a ‘lay’ Buddhist follower of Shaolin named Wei Wen Tong, who learned that art in his hometown in Shangdong. The three hand sets and one contact set of Shaolin Hei Hu Quan were developed by Cai Hongfa and Liang Shanyou.

r.

Cai Hongfa, of the Hua Quan Cai family?

[r.(shaolin)]

Cai Hongfa, of the Hua Quan Cai family?

Hi Sal,
I don't know. Hua Quan is an ancient style that came out of Shangdong allegedly found by Cai Mao. Is there a Cai Hongfa associated with Hua Quan? Cai Hongfa has the same surname 蔡 as in Cai Tai and Cai Gang, could be connected to Hua Quan. There is a fair amount of similarities with Hong Quan, Hua Quan, and northern Black Tiger.



r.shaolin wrote: The three hand sets and one contact set of Shaolin Hei Hu Quan were developed by Cai Hongfa and Liang Shanyou.

Actually in the account of the legend, Cai Hongfa taught Liang Shanyou.

Cai Guiqin studied with a master named Ding Yushan from Shandong Province during the 1870's. Liang Shanyou and Ding Yushan sort of sounds the same but the Chinese characters are different. Hum?

r.

[jmd161]

Hi jmd,
According to the legends of our tradition, Shaolin Hei Hu Quan(少林黑虎拳) was based on a system called Hei Hu Quan 黑虎拳 from northern China. These methods were brought to Shaolin by different people. The staff technques was brought by a ‘lay’ Buddhist follower of Shaolin named Wei Wen Tong, who learned that art in his hometown in Shangdong. The three hand sets and one contact set of Shaolin Hei Hu Quan were developed by Cai Hongfa and Liang Shanyou.

r.


I think we are talking about different things...I'm speaking about The Southern temple and you're speaking about The Northern temple. Because I haven't seen any Northern Black Tiger that looks anything like Hak Fu Mun or Sil Lum Black Tiger.



jeff:)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's some interesting info I gathered recently about Hong Quan styles in general.
If you can add anything to this it would be much appreciated!

According to these sources:

# 陕西红拳要重振昔日辉煌 Shaanxi hongquan yao chongzhen xiri huihuang article published in the newspaper Xi'an wanbao 西安晚报 the March 27, 2006

# Jos&#233; Carmona, De Shaolin &#224; Wudang, les arts martiaux chinois, Gui Trenadiel editeur. ISBN 2.844445.085.7 ISBN 2.844445.085.7

# Hu Guangfeng 胡光锋, Tujie dahongquan St. huang bang 图解大洪拳三晃膀 series of articles published in 2005 in the journal Jingwu 精武.

# 沛县武当洪拳源流 Peixian wudang hongquan yuanliu

# Peixian Wushu Zhi 沛县武术志 , Peixian , 2000

# Emeipai wushu ba da men 峨眉派武术八大门 Wushu

-----------------------------------------

definition of Hong Quan:

The name is made with different ideograms: Hong quan 红拳, Boxing red; 洪拳Hongquan, the Boxing great wave; Hong quan 鸿拳, Boxing Wild Swan or Vast. This is a very old style and so there are many different versions sometimes among themselves, among others: Shaanxi Hongquan 陕西红拳 Boxing red of Shaanxi; Da Hongquan 大洪拳; Xiao Hongquan 小洪拳; Er Hongquan 二洪拳; Etc..

It is said that the Taolu of Hongquan and of Paochui 炮锤 have taken much from a war dance (Tiao wu paida 跳拍打舞) of a palace guard of the King of Qin 秦, Yingzheng 嬴政, who created it to celebrate his victories during the period the springs and autumns (Chunqiu 嬴政, 777-476 BC).

The Hongquan is considered the basis of the Song dynasty's Chang quan Song Taizu 太祖 Zhao Kuangyin 赵匡胤 (927-976).

---------------------------------------------------
The various styles:


Da Hong quan 大洪拳

The legend of the founding of this style traces the origins at the Sui dynasty by Hong Xian 鸿仙. During the Tang Dynasty, there are historical documents that attest that a teacher of Jilin, Liu Fengguai 刘风拐 (also known as Liu Banxiang 刘半响), taught a boxing divided into six sections that has been identified with the Taolu known as Liu bu jia 六步架, the basic structure of the Hongquan. In the xinshu 纪效新书 of the famous of General Qi Jiguang 戚继光 says "in the boxing family's dynasty of Song Taizu's 32 shi changquan 三十二势长拳, there is also the Liubuquan六步拳, the Hou quan 猴拳 (monkey boxing), the Hua quan 化拳 . . .". The Liubuquan is identified with the Liubujia. During the Song dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, and the Ming dynasty Liubujia has spread dramatically in the basin of the Yellow River, giving life to many variations. Lao yang area practices this Da Hong Quan still today.

-----------------------------------------

Wudang Hongquan 武当洪拳

According to the legend of its foundation, this style was created by a Taoist monk on Wudang Mountain during the Song dynasty. As the name of this monk from Hong 洪 was his secular family name, the style was called Hongquan Wudang. Among the empty hand forms are included the: 关东架 Guan dong jia (frame passes to the east); 关西架 Guan xi jia (frame passes to the west); 太平架 Tai ping jia (frame of peace Supreme or Grand Level);十八路对练打捶 18 lu dui lian da chui;三十六摔 shuai 36;七十二擒拿手qinna shou 72; 抓门道功夫 Zhao men dao gongfu; etc..

Among the weapons forms are: dan dao 单刀; Shuang guai 双拐; Shou shao zi 手梢子; Si jie tang 四节镗; Chun qiu da dao 春秋大刀; Etc..

Also, two froms from this style Guandongjia and Guanxijia correspond to two forms created by Song Taizu, respectively三十六路长拳 36 lu Chang quan and 三百六十六手长拳 366 shou Changquan. There is a correspondence of movements and correspondence of many names in the Taolu with the Shaanxi Hongquan, despite their claim that the origins are different, indicating that they share a common origin.

-----------------------------------------

Shaanxi Hong Quan 陕西红拳

This style which originated in the Song Dynasty is considered by many to be the main branch from which have developed all the others. During the reign of Daoguang (1821-51), it had four teachers who have contributed to its growth: Gao San 高三 called "the falcon" 鹞子; Xing San 邢三called "black tiger"黑虎; Si Baolong 司宝龙, and Li Si 李四. The training includes the study of many Tao lu: Xiao Hongquan 小红拳; Da Hongquan 大红拳; Zhong Hongquan 中红拳; Lao Hongquan 老红拳; Taizu Hongquan 太祖红拳; Er Hongquan 二红拳; Guanxiquan 关西拳; Etc. The main weapons are the Gun (staff) 棍, Bian (whip stick) 鞭, and Shuang dao 双刀 (double swords)

---------------------------------------

HONG QUAN or "BOXING CLAN OF HONG" or "RED BOXING" from Shanxi is said to be founded by Gao San (or San Gao) at the end of the seventeenth century. Would have been created by a secret association during the reign of Qing. Places emphasis on postures powerful and stable on the strength given by the kicks and punches. Mimics several animals: the dragon, the snake, tiger, leopard, crane, monkeys and horses. Use the spear and the stick. Influenced by Shaolin schools and Wudang Zhao Men School (imported from Emei).

(This might be the same as Shaanxi Hong Quan, I think that people are mixing up Shanxi and Shaanxi, since the same person Gao San is involved, unless he went to both provinces, which are neighbors of Sichuan where he was originally from.

---------------------------------

Shaolin Hongquan 少林洪拳

In the book "Shaolin quanfa"少林拳法 states that during the time of the Yuan dynasty Jue Yuan 觉远 was visiting Bai Yufeng 白玉峰 and later introduced into the temple Bai's teaching, and mastery of Xiao Da Hongquan, of the gun (gunshu 棍术), Qinna 擒拿, etc.. This is the origin of the two Taolu currently practiced in the Songshan Shaolin schools.

Bai Yufeng, Jue Yuan, and Li Sou played important roles; Jue Yuan was a layman who took a fancy to Wushu. Later he became a monk at the Shaolin Temple, dedicating himself to the study of boxing positions and diligent practice. Soon he started his search for other famous masters.

In Gansu Province in the west of China, in the city of Lanzhou, he met Li Sou ("old man"), a master of "flood fist" H&#243;ngqu&#225;n. Li Sou accompanied Jue Yuan back to Henan, to Luoyang to introduce Jueyuan to Bai Yu-feng, who was born in Shanxi province, at Taiyuan. Bai was a master of an internal method from Luo yang Tong Fu Chan Si Monastery. He practiced the Ji Ji Tai Dou internal boxing style. The three of them, plus Li's son, went to the Shaolin.

Jue and Bai Yufeng developed the “18 Stuffs of Arhat”, increasing the number of forms from 18 to 72, and then to 173. They collected fragments of almost completely neglected patterns, put them to order and perfected them. Bai Yufeng also created the Imitation Boxing which mimicked the movements of the tiger, the leopard, the snake, the crane, and the dragon and other animals for a total of 12. 10 were preserved and the others were not finished by the time of his death.

Li Sou was also very skilled at martial arts, especially at Xiao Hong, Da Hong, and cudgel. His forms were frequently taught at the Shaolin Temple. Li Sou left his Xiao and Da Hong Quan to Shaolin, which are still practiced to this day. After ten years of mutual study and research, Li Sou left Shaolin; Bai Yu-Feng decided to stay in Shaolin and became a monk and chief librarian there. Bai Yu-Feng's monk name was Qiu Yue Chan Shi. Qiu Yue Chan Shi is known for his barehand fighting and narrow blade sword techniques. Jue Yuan (along with his student Yi Chuan) went to Guilin in Guangxi province (at the place of Yangshou) to meet Bai's teacher Ma Zi-Long, master of Ji Ji Tai Dou, who still practiced internal nei gong that was originally from Shaolin but now lost. They studied together at Jing Yun Shi monestary.

---------------------------------

Erlu Hongquan style: The Red fist in two parts (not flood character)

Huang Baoshan (1905-1998), of Gansu, represented the third generation of this style. He learned it in the Shandong province, the birthplace of this two form style.
In the red fist history, it is said that Zhao Kuang Yin, the first emperor of the Song Dynasty had created it; But the real time for the systematization of the style is most probably recorded in the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911). At the 13 year of the Kangxi emperor reign (1674), the red fist had been created between the provinces of Shandong and Shanxi.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hubei Hong Quan

Most of the routines of the Hubei Hong Quan are hand plays, such as the general hand plays, defensive hand plays, Jingang (Buddha's warrior attendant) hand plays, etc. Influenced by the Wudang-style Quan, one of the famous schools in China, the Hubei Hong Chuan also includes newly developed routines called Jiugong-shou, nine-palace hand plays, and Laojuntang, the Hall for Laozi, founder of Taoism. Two-way spear holding plays are the main methods to deal with the Hubei Hong Quan, which emphasizes both attack and defence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guangdong (Canton) Hong Quan

The Guangdong Hong Quan is a routine of animal imitating movements of the dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, crane, lion, elephant, horse, monkey, and small-sized wild beasts (cat, etc.).

-------------------------------------------------

Shandong Hong Quan

Muslim Hong Quan sets that come originally from Western China, these sets are now done as part of the familiar Cha (Zha) Quan system in Shandong and other areas.

They have their own Xiao, Da, and other Hong Quan sets, which are pretty much variants of Zha Quan stuff.

[Royal Dragon]

The Wudang Hongquan seems to be peaking my interest now, as it seems to be a Wudang variant of Taizu Quan. Do you have any more info on that system?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Wudang Hongquan seems to be peaking my interest now, as it seems to be a Wudang variant of Taizu Quan. Do you have any more info on that system?

I'll try to get more info.

Notice it says that the Wudang sets are the also with the Shaanxi sets.
So, wudang's versions aren't the original. Shaanxi's are.
Which means that Shaanxi's sets match Tai Tzu Quan's as well.

Shaolin does the Guan Dong set that is mentioned, it is shown in that set of books from taigu school.
It went be interested to compare it with the Wudang Guandong set.

[Jingwu Man]

I love that book by Jose Carmona, De shaolin a wudang. It's by far the best book on CMA I have found in an occidental language. I bought when I had just started training, and was in Quebec, and it opened my eyes to the real deal CMA.

Are all these styles still practiced? ( I know some are but are the rarer ones?) Are they fairly prevalent in China, or hard to find there too?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shaolin does the Guan Dong set that is mentioned, it is shown in that set of books from taigu school.

Reply]
Really? Which volume, and what is the English they use for it?

[r.(shaolin)]

there. Bai Yu-Feng's monk name was Qiu Yue Chan Shi. Qiu Yue Chan Shi is known for his barehand fighting and narrow blade sword techniques. Jue Yuan (along with his student Yi Chuan)

The legends of our tradition say that Chang Chuan Yi was Qiu Yue Chan's student. Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi had many followers, included lay Buddhists. Chang Chuan Yi , who’s lay-ordination name was Jiu Lian Huan 九蓮環 (Nine Lotus Halo), received martial arts instruction from Qiu Yue Chan Shi and developed a high level of skill. He is the first lay generation of our Shaolin tradition.


went to Guilin in Guangxi province (at the place of Yangshou) to meet Bai's teacher Ma Zi-Long, master of Ji Ji Tai Dou, who still practiced internal nei gong that was originally from Shaolin but now lost. They studied together at Jing Yun Shi monestary.

Do you know where Jing Yun Shi Monastery is. Our legends say that Venerable Yuan Jue also studied Bai Ma -白馬 at Huashan in Shanxi Province.
ps
I find it rather strange that Bai's teacher Ma Zi-Long was from Guangxi province - rather far south would you not say? Our legends say that Bai Yu-Feng was northerner from Shanxi province.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The legends of our tradition say that Chang Chuan Yi was Qiu Yue Chan's student. Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi had many followers, included lay Buddhists. Chang Chuan Yi , who’s lay-ordination name was Jiu Lian Huan 九蓮環 (Nine Lotus Halo), received martial arts instruction from Qiu Yue Chan Shi and developed a high level of skill. He is the first lay generation of our Shaolin tradition.



Do you know where Jing Yun Shi Monastery is. Our legends say that Venerable Yuan Jue also studied Bai Ma -白馬 at Huashan in Shanxi Province.
ps
I find it rather strange that Bai's teacher Ma Zi-Long was from Guangxi province - rather far south would you not say? Our legends say that Bai Yu-Feng was northerner from Shanxi province.

Hmm, so the Chang Chuan Yi and Yi Chuan stories match up, cool.

About Bai, yes, everything says he was born in Shanxi, but that's not where they met up.

Also, about Ma Zi-Long, I guess he was hiding or hanging out in Guangxi, but they worked with him in a Luoyang temple: Jing Yun Shi, where today the Ma family is now Muslim and known for their Xin Yi Quan.

By the way, heard from people doing research on XY's early origins and they are pointing to Tai Tzu Quan and Bai Yu Feng and Luoyang area at the main original source of some of the material and everyone is surprised at this.
I will let you know what they finally present, can you read Chinese?

[r.(shaolin)]

I will let you know what they finally present, can you read Chinese?

Very slowly with dictionary in hand - I would love to see this, so send it to me anyway - I have collaborators . . . .


By the way, heard from people doing research on XY's early origins and they are pointing to Tai Tzu Quan and Bai Yu Feng and Luoyang area at the main original source of some of the material and everyone is surprised at this.


What has been passed on by our older generations is this.
Bai Yu Feng and Jue Yuan based their training regime of Five Shapes Hands (Chin.: Wu Xing Shou, 五形 手) on the animal imitation martial methods already practiced at Shaolin, namely: dragon, tiger; leopard; crane; snake and five other animal imitating methods included: pelican, monkey, elephant, mustang and buffalo for a total of ten animals. Although existing Shaolin techniques were used, Qiu Yue Chan Shi made substantial changes to them when creating the new system. One characteristic of Bai Yu Feng's, Wu Xing Shou was that the clenched fist was not included. Qiu Yue Chan Shi intended to develop fifteen sets, but because of an untimely death he completed only twelve. The twelve sets included eight single sets, two, two-person sets, a staff set and a straight sword set.
These sets were divided into three groups: Dragon Hand, Tiger Hand, and Fighting between Dragon and Tiger. The entire group of sets incorporated twelve stepping patterns: Pelican Looking for Food, Black Dragon Showing it’s Claws, Monkey Stealing a Peach, Black Tiger Stealing The Heart, Golden Leopard Playing with a Ball, Elephant Swings its Trunk, White Crane Showing its Claws, Golden Dragon Flying, Mustang Charging a Water Trough, Buffalo Swinging it’s Horns, Poisonous Snake Sticking out it’s Tongue, and Wild Tiger Charging Forward. In other words, according to our tradiltion Wuxing was not just one or two sets but an entire system designed to be comprehensive and characterized by both soft defensive and powerful offensive actions. As with all high level Shaolin sets, Shen Long Shi Er Bu, (Divine Dragon Twelve Parts/sets) a.k.a: Shaolin Wu Xing Shou (少林五形 手) incorporated both wuxing 五行 (five elements) and ‘bagua 八卦 (eight tetragrams).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, here is the thing, I have seen that set elsewhere too though. I will concede that it's an unrelated set, and also that the performer does not use the body method for Tai tzu (Or any shaolin art that I can see), but the rough over all choreography appears to match the other versions I have seen, like the girl in white from the treasures of Taiwan tape(she also does the Cha Fist set too).

I think if you removed the flash from his set it would be legit.

I think that his students are saying that this set is part of his Northern Mantis linage.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Interesting...but dose that set look like mantis to you?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting...but dose that set look like mantis to you?

No, but that just means that he learned the set from that teacher, but since that teacher was from Shandong, he must have picked it up there from one of the long fist lineages there.

[r.(shaolin)]

So, where did this '花' Hua Quan come from that Shaolin had incorporated?


Our legends say only that Venerable Zhishan of Shaolin Monastery created the fighting style called Hua Quan at Shaolin Si. These fighting methods were seen as an advancement in combat techniques. When Zhishan was killed, Hua Quan style stopped being practiced at Shaolin. Before the killing of Zhishan, his art were greatly respected at Shaolin, as it had contributed tremendous changes to the training of martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. During the Yuan Dynasty, the Shaolin monk responsible for bringing this art back out of obscurity was Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi – our ancestral master.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Very slowly with dictionary in hand - I would love to see this, so send it to me anyway - I have collaborators . . . .

Hi;

They have been translating the information, you can find it here what so far has been translated by people (Josh and others):

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=438

[Sal Canzonieri]

Our legends say only that Venerable Zhishan of Shaolin Monastery created the fighting style called Hua Quan at Shaolin Si. These fighting methods were seen as an advancement in combat techniques. When Zhishan was killed, Hua Quan style stopped being practiced at Shaolin. Before the killing of Zhishan, his art were greatly respected at Shaolin, as it had contributed tremendous changes to the training of martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. During the Yuan Dynasty, the Shaolin monk responsible for bringing this art back out of obscurity was Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi – our ancestral master.
r.

Ah, yes, the infamous story of this event.

So, is it known if this Hua Quan created by ZhiShan is from Wah Mountain of Shaanxi province (where Cai family Hua Quan originally is from before it went to Shandong province)?

Or is it related to the Hua (Flower) Boxing that Gan Fen Chi developed by mixing Shaolin and Taoist martial arts (3 Emperor Pao Chui from Emei) together during the 1700s?

So, you are saying that Bai Yu Feng, et al, used this Hua Quan to develop their 5 Animals system (plus they used Luohan as a base to start with too?)

[r.(shaolin)]

So, is it known if this Hua Quan created by ZhiShan is from Wah Mountain of Shaanxi province (where Cai family Hua Quan originally is from before it went to Shandong province)?

Or is it related to the Hua (Flower) Boxing that Gan Fen Chi developed by mixing Shaolin and Taoist martial arts (3 Emperor Pao Chui from Emei) together during the 1700s?

In the legends/records that have been passed down to us its not quite clear if Zhi Shan created sets or developed sets of Hua Quan at Shaolin Si. It does say these sets incorporated wuxing (five elements) and bagua (eight tetragram) stepping patterns.
No such personnamed, Gan Fen Chi, is mention anywhere in our legend records.


So, you are saying that Bai Yu Feng, et al, used this Hua Quan to develop their 5 Animals system (plus they used Luohan as a base to start with too?)


No. According what was has been passed down us, Bai Yu Feng took on the positon of Zangzhu 藏主 (librarian) at Shaolin Monastery. There he found the records on Hua Quan. The records in our lineages also suggests that Bai Yu Feng also made corrections or changes to a number of other sets at Shaolin as well.
These records make no mention of Dragon / Tiger sets being based on Blossom fist only that Blossom fist sets had at one time been practiced at Shaolin but when Bai Yu Feng arrived there these sets were not being trained.
r.


Ah, yes, the infamous story of this event.

Tell me about this.

[Sal Canzonieri]

2 more Hong Quan styles to add to the list that come from Zhao Kuang Yin:

---------------------------------

"Szechuan (Sichuan) Hung Gar" (Hong Jia) is practiced by the descendants Zhao Kung Yin's relatives who moved to Sichuan province during the flight out during the southern song dynasty and lists the following hand sets:

- Siu Hong Kuen / Xiao Hong Quan (small red fist)
- Da Hong Kuen / Da Hong Quan (big red fist)
- Hong Moon Choy / Hong Men Chui (red door strike)
- Hong Moon Sau / Hong Men Shou (red door hand)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Wubei (Hubei Province) style of Hong Jia (family) roots come from the Tai Tzu Quan of the first emperor of the Song dynasty, Zhao Kuang Yin. Also Hubei Hong Quan is said to be influenced by the Wutang style. Its major sets are:
- Gold General's Hand (Jin Zong Shou / Gum Gong Sao)
- Jamming Hand (Feng Shou / Fung Sao)
- Big Combination Hand (Da Zhong Shou / Dai Jung Sao)
- Gold Splitting Fist (Jin Pi Quan / Gum Pek Kune).

------------------------------------------------

[Qixing Tanglang]

Hmm, well, since it has the opening salute of Shandong Long Fist, and the second section is pretty much all mantis:
it is possible that these sets are from that Tai Tzu Mantis style that is indeed found in Shandong.
Kinda like the Shandong Xiao Hu Yan set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo

First set in that clip is Xiao Hu Yan. According to our Mantis tradition it comes from the system Mi Zong Yi.

[Royal Dragon]

Mi Zong Yi Is Yanngqing Quan correct?

I am told that comes from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, which explains why Xiao Hu Yan looks so much like certain versions of the Tai Tzu quan style.

Also, the Tai Tzu Chang Quan of Li Mao Ching is built on the same frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8&feature=related

Yes, I know they are different sets, but if you zoom in and look close they follow the same frame indicating they are related. In other words, they have the same identical markers, in the same places and same order.

I am going to have to look at Mi Zong clips now to see if that same frame is in them too.

[B-Rad]

It looks to be along the same lines as my teachers mizong quan. At least going by the one mizong set I learned from him.

[Royal Dragon]

The form seems to be constructed totally different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ROOSjmF1Uk&feature=related

[B-Rad]

I've got a digital video recorder now, I'll have to video tape my set when I get home (hopefully I remember all of it :p). There's quite a few different mizong quan/yanqing quan systems and forms out there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Mi Zong Yi Is Yanngqing Quan correct?

I am told that comes from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, which explains why Xiao Hu Yan looks so much like certain versions of the Tai Tzu quan style.

Also, the Tai Tzu Chang Quan of Li Mao Ching is built on the same frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8&feature=related

Yes, I know they are different sets, but if you zoom in and look close they follow the same frame indicating they are related. In other words, they have the same identical markers, in the same places and same order.

I am going to have to look at Mi Zong clips now to see if that same frame is in them too.

Actually, Mi Tzung is older than TZ Chang Quan, it was started right before the Song dynasty, but it left Shaolin and spread around China during the southern Song time period

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJLZOslVCHs&feature=related

:confused:

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJLZOslVCHs&feature=related

:confused:

That is just plain old dance KF, horrible.

I always say in all my seminars, if people don't know WHY they are doing the movements, then they can never learn HOW to do the movements correctly and then the don't know WHAT they are doing.

Evidently there is no core body mechanics being used here, just some kind of ends to a means, moving to get to the end.
This is why forms get a bad name now, people have no clue how to do the core body mechanics so their forms are devoid of any effectiveness. It looks like break dancing to me.

[Royal Dragon]

From my point of view, training body mechanics IS the main purpose of Form practice.

[Sal Canzonieri]

From my point of view, training body mechanics IS the main purpose of Form practice.

EXACTLY, the number one thing that is somehow not understood anymore.

Efficient and Effective use of correct body mechanics allows one to perform drills that train one to link their footwork with their timing, creating whole body movement.
From here, forms are a short hand memory device to allow one to practice the basics under the many variations possible. Then, the applications show them selves as necessary, creating a natural martial art that is ingrained, just like one learns who to ride a bike or drive a car. Once these whole body kinds of activities (mind and body work as one when driving) are manifested, they are never forgotten and spontaneous solutions happen as needed in the face of any obstacles in one's path.

Training body mechanics is what the advanced practitioner always goes back to; a "spiral learning" modality.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here is a video I just posted of the original version of the Xiao Hong Quan set, BEFORE it was shortened in modern times and simplified.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY

This form is often called the Lao Jia Da Hong Quan, the old frame Large Hong Quan, but as you can see 1/3rd of the way in, it is all the Xiao Hong Quan set, but done with more advanced movements.

[LFJ]

sal,

have you heard that ven. dechan said dahongquan has its origins in the first ming emperor zhu yuanzhang, reign name "hongwu" (洪武)?

apparently according to ven. dechan, it was passed on from hongwu during his reign and called hongquan (洪拳).

the poem for dahongquan in the shaolin encyclopedia calls it "taizu hongquan", but doesnt say whether thats song taizu or ming taizu.

also, the erlu dahongquan shown in the encyclopedia says it was ven. dechan who created it as a simplified version of the larger set (yilu dahongquan).

[Sal Canzonieri]

sal,

have you heard that ven. dechan said dahongquan has its origins in the first ming emperor zhu yuanzhang, reign name "hongwu" (洪武)?

apparently according to ven. dechan, it was passed on from hongwu during his reign and called hongquan (洪拳).

the poem for dahongquan in the shaolin encyclopedia calls it "taizu hongquan", but doesnt say whether thats song taizu or ming taizu.

also, the erlu dahongquan shown in the encyclopedia says it was ven. dechan who created it as a simplified version of the larger set (yilu dahongquan).

yeah, I read an article on that, but he was assuming that's where it came from, since the rebellion against the Qing was drumming up patriotism towards the previous Ming empire and they were using Ming "Flood" character in their rebel sect martial arts.
The people from Shaanxi that have Red Fist Hong Quan also said the same thing, they said originally Shaolin Hong Quan was not called that, but they used the 洪 character in honor of the Ming Emperor.
Well, Li Sou's Da Hong Quan that he brought to Shaolin from Gansu was in existence before the first ming emperor zhu yuanzhang, obviously.

Also, the Big Swan or Big Big Vast Fist Da Hong Quan from the area near Shaolin was also changed to using the 洪拳 characters. But everyone is saying that is wrong in many articles in Chinese martial arts magazines. They say the correct way is to use the Swan / Vast character.

Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and Shaolin Da Hong Quan come from two different sources and from two different styles.

Shaolin Da Hong Quan is from Song Emperor Taizu Hong Quan (and has most of it movements in common with his Lao Hong Quan, rather than Xiao Hong Quan), and that was originally Big Vast character, but yes in honor of Ming Emeperor they used Flood character instead. Plus, it also helped them to convey the idea that it was flowing style, because Taizu Chang Quan, the Chang character meant Long like a flowing river. See, it meant Overwhelming, which is again the Vast character.
So people changed it from Vast character to Flood Character during the Qing dynasty.
ER Lu Da Hong Quan and all the other Lu's of Da Hong Quan, 13 in total, are each from a different person that left their set to Shaolin as a gift. Most of the other LU's are from Shandong, where the full style is still practiced.

Now, Xiao Hong Quan was from Li Sou, and I am pretty sure that it didn't have the Flood character until Qing Dynasty either. People were claiming that Flood was a last name, but they were confusing this Hong with the Hung Gar style, which is indeed from someone's last name.

Now, to confuse things further, and the main reason why people assume that Hong character for Shaolin sets was used in honor of Ming Emperor Zhu was because there was indeed actually a Ming era military martial art, based on tiger movements that was called Hong Quan (not at all related to Shaolin Hong Quan in anyway at all), it is composed of two sets (xiao and da), and is a far distant ancestor to Hung Gar, because the founder of Hung Gar was once a garrison leader in the Ming army barracks and he of course learned this Hong Quan, hence Hung Gar is also Tiger based. You can find this info on my website that has all the Southern Shaolin history articles, www.bgtent.com

The full Quan Pu song for the Shaolin Da Hong Quan set and also in some history book about Song Emperor Zhao Kuangyin states that the full name is Taizu GUANDONG Hong Quan. The Quan Pu says that he went from the Eastern Gate to the Western gate of China and took it over. And that makes sense since Zhao did do that. I think there is a saying Beat the Western Gate by way of Attacking the Eastern Gate.

By the way, since you are faster at reading Chinese than me (I'm very very slow), can you post what the Encyc. says about the creationg of Xiao Hong Quan ER LU?
Who? When?
That's an amazingly fun and great set I learned long long ago.
thanks!

[LFJ]

, can you post what the Encyc. says about the creationg of Xiao Hong Quan ER LU?
Who? When?
That's an amazingly fun and great set I learned long long ago.
thanks!

i get tired of typing out encyclopedia too! :D

well, i have the old four volume edition. planning on getting the revised one soon. so i dont know how much different these are, but apparently the newer one says in the dahongquan poem; "if you ask the name of this quan, it is taizu guandong dahongquan".

whereas the older version starts off calling it "taizu hongquan", and the last sentence is instead; "if you ask where this quan originates, it is at shaolin monastery".

i guess they revised it for more than technical accuracy of the sets. :rolleyes:

as for xiaohongquan erlu, it (the old encyc.) is a bit vague, but says it was created by monks who left the order and returned home (huánsúsēng 还俗僧) by combing the basic skills of shaolin xiaohongquan, luohan 18 shou, and other sets. then describes its attributes. finally it says the set is practiced today by no fewer than 50,000 people. among those who have mastered it are ven. sufa (素法) and deyan (德炎, the female co-author). it also says they copied the set down based on her demonstration of it.

as far as history, the poem is a bit more specific. it says it was passed on by monk rujing (如精), and originally from zhenkui (真魁). it doesnt really give a date, but you can figure. these are 23rd and 24th generation monks. definitely within the qing dynasty still. maybe 1700's.

clues: monks returning home, 23rd and 24th generation monks named... it was probably from around the time the monastery was destroyed by the qing government for suspected anti-qing activity. whichever date that may have been approximately.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i get tired of typing out encyclopedia too! :D

well, i have the old four volume edition. planning on getting the revised one soon. so i dont know how much different these are, but apparently the newer one says in the dahongquan poem; "if you ask the name of this quan, it is taizu guandong dahongquan".

whereas the older version starts off calling it "taizu hongquan", and the last sentence is instead; "if you ask where this quan originates, it is at shaolin monastery".

i guess they revised it for more than technical accuracy of the sets. :rolleyes:

as for xiaohongquan erlu, it (the old encyc.) is a bit vague, but says it was created by monks who left the order and returned home (huánsúsēng 还俗僧) by combing the basic skills of shaolin xiaohongquan, luohan 18 shou, and other sets. then describes its attributes. finally it says the set is practiced today by no fewer than 50,000 people. among those who have mastered it are ven. sufa (素法) and deyan (德炎, the female co-author). it also says they copied the set down based on her demonstration of it.

as far as history, the poem is a bit more specific. it says it was passed on by monk rujing (如精), and originally from zhenkui (真魁). it doesnt really give a date, but you can figure. these are 23rd and 24th generation monks. definitely within the qing dynasty still. maybe 1700's.

clues: monks returning home, 23rd and 24th generation monks named... it was probably from around the time the monastery was destroyed by the qing government for suspected anti-qing activity. whichever date that may have been approximately.

Well, we can call the Shaolin Encyc. the Da Quan Book, which is what it is named in Chinese, much shorter, yes?

taizu guandong dahongquan is what it is called in history books as well. So, they must have corrected that. Hmmm.

now about it saying "monks returning".

There's two periods:
During the mid 1600s, ALL the monks attending religious services were massacred by the rebel leader Li, who felt that they were too loyal to the emperor, whether it be Ming or Qing.
The only people who didn't die were those that weren't there that day. I mean everyone was killed by hundreds of rebel armymen, they waited till the monks were in services and unawares. This a historical fact. They destroyed the temple grounds as well, demolished most of it.
So, I would think this is when some monks came back, if they were ordained monks.

In the mid 1700s, the Qing emperor, REBUILT Shaolin completely. BUT< he used this as an opportunity to evict and destroy all the shrine area temples, where the anti-Qing rebels hid out and where the guard Martial Monks were stationed, who were not ordained. They were rebels who posed as monks, learning Shaolin martial arts, but not being religious.
These "monks" spread out at that time to Shandong and spread the Kanjia Quan (which become Bei Shaolin 10 famous sets), Shaolin Hong Quan, and Shaolin Chang Quan. Some went to Hebei where they spread Luohan Quan and other styles. Some went to other provinces and spread what they had specialized on as well. This was a big Shaolin diaspora but they weren't religious monks at all.

[LFJ]

well, you can say the daquan book. but since i havent gotten mine i have to say the baikequanshu... :rolleyes: "encyc." is fine for now.

by the way, does the daquan book have the laojia hongquan set in it, or any shaolin manual you have?

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, you can say the daquan book. but since i havent gotten mine i have to say the baikequanshu... :rolleyes: "encyc." is fine for now.

by the way, does the daquan book have the laojia hongquan set in it, or any shaolin manual you have?

No, none of the three versions I have of the Encyc. has the Lao Hong Quan.

Only Liu Zhenhai has all four roads, with some "marks" put in - I was shown where exactly - in his Shaolin Da Lu book (didn't I give you the ISBN in a PM?). Its been recently reissued in China.

If you get the book, I will tell you where the marks are in a PM or you will get really mixed up at certain points.

Oh, I think you meant the Lao JIA Hong Quan as in the long version of Xiao Hong Quan, same answer. But Shi De Jun has an accurate VCD.
It's the same way I learned it, also on russbo website they have someone doing it.
There was a long thread about it there, I had posted the lyrics to the long version and explained how it is different from the Xiao version. Check it out there.

[LFJ]

yes i meant the laojia hongquan. dejun does a great job of it. i was interested in seeing what the encyc. might say about its history.

the liu zhenhai book you must have talked to "rendahai" about.

i'm book-shopping now anyway. need to get the new daquan book. :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes i meant the laojia hongquan. dejun does a great job of it. i was interested in seeing what the encyc. might say about its history.

the liu zhenhai book you must have talked to "rendahai" about.

i'm book-shopping now anyway. need to get the new daquan book. :)

I really don't like the wushu-ized photos of the sets in the new 2 volume version, but sometimes they fix things that were wrong in the drawings in the 4 volume version, you just have to ignore the "modern" look. The last third of the volume is the same drawings, no photos, the rare sets where you really would like to see a person do the set instead of a cartoon.

[chanboxer]

about the book,

you can get the first issue of it;
http://shop.kongfz.com/book/6925/12855772.html

or this http://www.frelax.com/cgilocal/enitem.cgi?db=book&ty=id&id=SLCT052130
which maybe the second issue of it. but it does not credit liu zhenhai

[LFJ]

oh, it has yuanhouquan in it too?

[Sal Canzonieri]

oh, it has yuanhouquan in it too?

yes! and it is perfectly done.

Also, the mostly full version of Da Luohan
and the weird 18 Luohan hands set from Li Sou
Da mei hua
Yan Qing Quan
Meteor Fist
The twoTong Bi Quan sets
and Five Elements Linking form (some marked postures)
and lots of old traditional weapon sets

[Sal Canzonieri]

about the book,

you can get the first issue of it;
http://shop.kongfz.com/book/6925/12855772.html

or this http://www.frelax.com/cgilocal/enitem.cgi?db=book&ty=id&id=SLCT052130
which maybe the second issue of it. but it does not credit liu zhenhai

Frelax might be out of stock with that version.

[Sal Canzonieri]

LFJ

Can you order two books for me from Kongfz.com ?
I can paypal you the money or trade you books for it?
I have the 5 Tagou books I want to trade and other extra stuff.

If they will send to the USA, maybe you can just order for me and I can pay directly?
I can't read everything on that site. so I don't know how to do it for myself.

There's two books they have that I must get, I've been looking for them for many years!

[LFJ]

i can look. what are the titles?

[chanboxer]

Frelax might be out of stock with that version.

what makes you say that?

[Sal Canzonieri]

what makes you say that?

They have been telling me that they are out of stock most of the time when I ordered the older books.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i can look. what are the titles?

少林內功：柔形捶·云龍劍·修身功

and

中国洪洞通背拳

and

禅拳

[LFJ]

found them. i will look into the options. right now i'm trying to order some from another chinese site that doesnt seem to be working....

[Eugene]

I am not sure if you seen this movie,

But it is Shi De Cheng performing Da Hong Quan in Italy, I remember this video, I saw it last year.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxTNfTnltU
He starts at 4:31 , really cool performence !

Peace Eugene, Saw a lot of videos before I jouned this forum, so I hope you dont mind me adding videos :)

I love to see the Big Masters do any one of the 10 set

[Eugene]

http://v.ku6.com/show/oBuln7ztci4FQfxS.html

Extreme good Hong boxing ! I think your gona love this Mr. Canzonieri :)

I searched today for the characters of Hong you mentioned earlier in this thread, and searched for videos, and found this cool one.

Eugene

[Eugene]

I have been watching this video alot today, I only focus on the Xiao Hong parts because I only know this style.

He does alot of postures a little different, then for example Shi Guo Song or Shi Yong Zhi, the way he does it makes somehow more sence ...

But I am still a newbie..

Here is another video

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE1NzE4MjIw.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://v.ku6.com/show/oBuln7ztci4FQfxS.html

Extreme good Hong boxing ! I think your gona love this Mr. Canzonieri :)

I searched today for the characters of Hong you mentioned earlier in this thread, and searched for videos, and found this cool one.

Eugene

Well, it's good for modern style, but for the real traditional way, it is not really.
He's breaking some important body alignment and core mechanics rules, which makes it inefficient for self defense (not ineffective, that's a different concept. Efficiency has to do with timing and effectiveness has to do with strength).

That back heel going out all the time is detrimental to self defense, and if a form's techniques are not workable for self defense then it is not efficient or effective.

Even Qigong exercises are workable for self defense (I give seminars showing so).

So, it's a nice form for show, but not good otherwise.

Now, this is totally efficient and effective with footwork:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6KAHDd0Pqw (doing it slow for show)

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have been watching this video alot today, I only focus on the Xiao Hong parts because I only know this style.

He does alot of postures a little different, then for example Shi Guo Song or Shi Yong Zhi, the way he does it makes somehow more sence ...

But I am still a newbie..

Here is another video

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE1NzE4MjIw.html

This is Big Swan or Vast Fist (Swan / Vast = Hong) not Shaolin Hong Quan (Flowing / Flooding = Hong).

[Lucas]

man i wish i lived where you teach...

[Sal Canzonieri]

man i wish i lived where you teach...

Well, get a group of people together and I'll come out there and do a seminar.

[Eugene]

Thx, Mr. Canzonieri,

Your awnsers are real clear,

Cool that you give a video of Shi Guo Song, I am saving money to get lessons from him next year ! I live in Holland so, thats gona be alot of money :)

For the most part I am gona take lessons from him in Xiao Hong boxing and Mei Hua Boxing. Its a dream come true :)

Peace Eugene

[Eugene]

Mr. Canzonieri,

I hope you dont mind that I ask alot,
But, I noticed in another thread that you said that one should master hong quan and pao quan before learning Tong Bi quan ?

The Shaolin 10 set.

I tought that the list from Xiao to Luohan was a road to learn, but I believe that pao quan is at the end of the list, maybe before Luohan boxing.

Do you mean that for Songshan Shaolin Boxing, the list would be, if one want to learn all 10 Boxing styles, sets .. forms would be the following :

Xiao Hong Quan
Da Hong Quan
Pao Chui Quan
and then Da Tong Bi Quan ( and maybe Xiao Tong Bi Quan )
Liu He Quan
Taizu Chan Quan etc to Luohan

Greetings Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

Mr. Canzonieri,

I hope you dont mind that I ask alot,
But, I noticed in another thread that you said that one should master hong quan and pao quan before learning Tong Bi quan ?

The Shaolin 10 set.

I tought that the list from Xiao to Luohan was a road to learn, but I believe that pao quan is at the end of the list, maybe before Luohan boxing.

Do you mean that for Songshan Shaolin Boxing, the list would be, if one want to learn all 10 Boxing styles, sets .. forms would be the following :

Xiao Hong Quan
Da Hong Quan
Pao Chui Quan
and then Da Tong Bi Quan ( and maybe Xiao Tong Bi Quan )
Liu He Quan
Taizu Chan Quan etc to Luohan

Greetings Eugene

Everyone has a different list in their lineage.
I don't follow the newer list of 10 that Shaolin uses, it's only been in use since the 1980s. (plus there is a lot more than these 10 sets, those are just considered 10 classic sets.)

If someone had a limited time to learn sets, I guess the usual list is fine to follow.

In my experience, I would start with TZ Chang Quan, as it is the mother of all sets in Shaolin (post - Rou Quan).
Then Xiao and Da Hong Quan.
Then the Pao Chui sets, then the Tongbi Quan set.
Then the order of the remaining sets doesn't matter.
Luohan Quan could come next after Pao Quan or come back to it after learning the other sets.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thx, Mr. Canzonieri,

Your awnsers are real clear,

Cool that you give a video of Shi Guo Song, I am saving money to get lessons from him next year ! I live in Holland so, thats gona be alot of money :)

For the most part I am gona take lessons from him in Xiao Hong boxing and Mei Hua Boxing. Its a dream come true :)

Peace Eugene

Congratulations!

[Eugene]

Yeah tx,

How can I see this form as in or around the Songshan Shaolin set,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WQ8wDT-uzk&feature=PlayList&p=6E36622600E6E06A&index=0&playnext=1

Zhao Yang Quan, I think you have seen it.
Does it have any relation to Hong, Pao, Taizu etc ?

In the video * the myths and logic from Shaolin Kung Fu* Shi De Yang teaches a student this form also. It looked to me like one of the basics sets long ago. :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah tx,

How can I see this form as in or around the Songshan Shaolin set,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WQ8wDT-uzk&feature=PlayList&p=6E36622600E6E06A&index=0&playnext=1

Zhao Yang Quan, I think you have seen it.
Does it have any relation to Hong, Pao, Taizu etc ?

In the video * the myths and logic from Shaolin Kung Fu* Shi De Yang teaches a student this form also. It looked to me like one of the basics sets long ago. :)

Hmm, well, a few months ago we had a thread on each set of the Shaolin main forms, I and others posted tons of videos and then we discussed what's what about each set, everything you need to know.

I guess you can search in the database here for threads I started in the Shaolin area of this site, and you can see all the threads.
90% of your questions will be answered in those threads.

("You do 20 times, then you tell me if you have question" as Bow Sim Mark used to say)

[LFJ]

I think it's time this thread had an update, given the further knowledge we now have of Shaolin Xiaohongquan. This is a simple overview.

There are three major manifestations of XHQ from villages in Songshan, then the common Shaolin XHQ:

1) Mogou village (Xiyuan- Western Courtyard): One long set called Xiaohongquan which used to have a lot more to it. Separated from Shaolin some 500 years ago.

2) Ruan village (Nanyuan- Southern Courtyard): 4 roads named like Xiaohong, Dahong, Sanhong (3 Hong), etc.. Separated from Shaolin some 360 years ago. ( Short clip of the opening section from the first right turn until qixing - danbian. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PZHKOJuPAw) )

3) Luotuoyuan village: One set they call Dahongquan which we've been referring to as Laojia (old frame). ( LTY DHQ (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY) )

4) Shaolin: Also 4 roads, but the vast majority only do the first road.


Similarities:

1) Mogou XHQ follows the same pattern as the current XHQ, but is quite different and was an obvious template for Changhuxinyimenquan. You'd think it's an older version of the same form if you saw it. (More on that below)

2) Ruan XHQ & Luotuoyuan DHQ share close similarities in their Xiexing section which goes Suoshen > You Caijiao > You Xiexing > Suoshen > Tiaobu Zuo Xiexing, whereas the current XHQ has a waibaitui and zhengtitui before the first and second xiexing respectively.

3) Ruan XHQ & Current XHQ are similar in at least the 1st two roads of each.

4) Luotuoyuan DHQ contains actions from the remaining roads added into the 1st road, as if condensed into a single set, hence they call it Dahongquan. But rather than being a fuller version of the current XHQ, it is actually much smaller than if you have all 4 roads.


Conclusions:

1) Since the current Shaolin XHQ is similar to the Ruan village Nanyuan version in more than one road despite the 360 year separation, it appears the current XHQ is also Nanyuan and that they both have the same origin in the Shaolin Monastery's Nanyuan. The same can be said of Luotuoyuan DHQ, as a condensed set of the 4 roads.


Further interest:

1) Mogou XHQ is Xiyuan and while it follows the same pattern, it was also clearly the template for Shaolin CHXYMQ. They claim a 500 year separation and that there was more to the Hongquan system that has been lost.

As to the connection of Mogou XHQ and Shaolin CHQYMQ, Mougou village says a long time ago a man from Mogou became a monk at Shaolin and taught them some of Mogou's sets, modifying them to fit with Shaolin. They believe Shaolin CHXYMQ is from this time.

The CHXYMQ description in the Shaolin Encyclopedia places its creation in the Song Dynasty with a monk named Huiwei (惠威) with 36 original postures which were extended by disciples to 66 postures. Then in the Yuan dynasty it was extended to 72 postures by Jinnaluo (紧那罗) (Who Mogou attribute much of their style to and call 'Nuonuo Ye'), then to 82 postures by monk Zi'an (子安).

In the Ming dynasty it was altered by monks Juexun (觉训), Tongxiang (通祥) and others. They improved the skills, made the structure tighter and gave it a distinctive style (perhaps when the Xinyi rooster elements were added to it, if the timeline matches up).

It then names several Qing dynasty monks who were well-known practitioners, especially monk Jiran (寂然) who after 10 years of hard training with it made substantial alterations. He took out 28 repetitive postures (from the 82 posture set), and added 30 new postures, to total 84.


Questions:

Now, despite all these alterations that took place in Shaolin, it still follows the Mogou XHQ pattern quite closely, only differing in style, despite the 500 year separation? That makes me think Shaolin may have also adopted the Mogou history on the form, but with all these monks named? Unless some of these monks who made alterations also came from Mogou village (such as Jinnaluo & maybe Jiran) and brought the pattern in line with the way it was developing in Mogou, since it was their material in the first place.

Also, with the creation placed in the Song Dynasty, that predates a Li Sou connection. If the original pattern is really so old, then we don't know exactly where Li Sou's Hongquan went in Shaolin, or what it was, since its usually considered to be the current XHQ/DHQ.

Anyway, with Mogou's 500 year separation and Ruan's 360 year separation from Shaolin, they are quite different but still roughly follow the same pattern. They are unlikely to have changed so much in isolation. So the original pattern must be very old. Crediting Li Sou for the same pattern may allow too little time.


Possible conclusion:

So perhaps the original pattern is from Mogou and in fact goes back to at least the Song Dynasty before it was introduced to Shaolin. In Shaolin it evolved into CHXYMQ as it did in the Xiyuan, and in the Nanyuan the pattern evolved into the form of Ruan village and the current XHQ, and out in Luotuoyuan the Nanyuan got condensed into their current DHQ set.

[LFJ]

This is my current conjecture on the evolution of the Xiaohongquan system, based on the above information and comparisons:

1) Mogou village XHQ was introduced to Shaolin Monastery in the Song Dynasty.
2) At the Shaolin Monastery it evolved in two sects, Xiyuan & Nanyuan (Western & Southern Courtyards).
3) In the Xiyuan it evolved into Changhuxinyimenquan, aka. Shaolin Xiyuan Xiaohongquan.
4) In the Nanyuan it evolved into a 4 road set which is the current Shaolin XHQ and the Ruan village version that separated 360 years ago, aka. Shaolin Nanyuan Xiaohongquan.
5) The 4 sets of Ruan NY XHQ were condensed into 'Dahongquan' of Luotuoyuan village, aka. Laojia Hongquan.


Mogou -> Shaolinsi -< Xiyuan/Nanyuan

Shaolinsi Xiyuan -> CHXYMQ

Shaolinsi Nanyuan -> Current XHQ & Ruan XHQ

Ruan XHQ -> Luotuoyuan DHQ

[RenDaHai]

Its a good summary,

But I don't see any need to change our currently accepted version of things.

I think Hong Quan was imported to Shaolin in Song.

500 years ago or so a manifestation of JinNaluo took the then extant Shaolin styles to Mogou village. This is what XHQ looked like at the time, it remained more unchanged in the village because they were not trying to refine it.

Then XHQ evolved in Shaolin and was refined, emphasizing the palms and simplifying the movements. At which point NuoTianFa was healed in Ruan Village and in gratitude taught them the then extant Shaolin Nanyuan styles.

This was still form SHaolin temple this Nanyuan version the current set gradually evolved.

As to the XHQ in the XiYuan Pai, this either changed its name to CHXYM so as not to confuse with their XHQ OR it vanished and then CHXYM was created from interaction with Mogou Village, again not wanting another XHQ they used a pre existing name (CHXYM).

So Shaolin temple is still responsible for XHQ but the village styles are off shoots, frozen in time.

Luotuo village hong quan is then an off shoot from some other point, more recently looking at it.



It should be noted however Luotuoyuans claims are the boldest. Their village is also the origin of the popular Taizu ChangQuan set. They claim they learned it in Song from ZhaoKuanYins armies in Shanxi province. Then 7-800 years ago many people in Henan died and their family moved there from Shanxi. Then they interaced with Shaolin (which may have already had a similar set since it was taught to a large army in song). If they are correct Taizu Chang Quan is the military style responsible for much of the current styles.



As to the origin of Hong QUan, I think Sal is our resident expert. I have forgotten, though my master always told me to remember the names of ZHaoKuanYins teachers. There were two of them. They are responsible in some legends for the origin of our XHQ. Later they told him [ZKY] to go to Shaolin where he meets with yet another manifestation of JinNaLuo. There is a great fairy tale of their meeting. I will have to record it in full.

[LFJ]

I think Hong Quan was imported to Shaolin in Song.

500 years ago or so a manifestation of JinNaluo took the then extant Shaolin styles to Mogou village. This is what XHQ looked like at the time, it remained more unchanged in the village because they were not trying to refine it.

If it was first taken to Mogou by Xu Naluo (nn. Nuonuo Ye, aka. Jinnaluo) and was unchanged in the village because they were not trying to refine it, how is it to be explained that Mogou XHQ follows the pattern of Shaolin CHXYMQ so closely after CHXYMQ has gone through multiple modifications, additions, and subtractions over the centuries while Mogou XHQ should have been frozen?

The development of CHXYMQ as described in my previous post is as read in the Shaolin Encyclopedia and is recorded in "Shaolinsi Wuseng Pu" which credits the original creation to monk Huiwei in the Song Dynasty, with several others modifying it over the centuries even after it would have gone to Mogou. Yet the current version still runs the exact same pattern as Mogou XHQ, even though it had movements taken out and added.

If it was taken from Shaolin to Mogou 5/600 years ago their current versions shouldn't run the same pattern.

Mogou village history also speaks of a villager ordaining in Shaolin and adapting their village system to Shaolin technique, which is where they believe CHXYMQ came from. How far back? To monk Huiwei who created it, or more recently monk Jiran who made the final alterations ending with a version that closely matches Mogou XHQ's pattern?

There are many who believe this Hongquan is original to Mogou village, while Zhao Kuangyin's Hongquan is a different system. Although they both may have earliest origins in Sanhuangbang.

That's the only explanation I can see for them to end up with the same pattern after one was modified multiple times while the other was isolated and unchanged.

Do you think the set (not necessarily the original technique) was created by Huiwei in Shaolin, taken to Mogou by Xu Naluo, then returned to Shaolin by Jiran who modified the then current evolution of it to match Mogou's pattern?

(It's funny the Shaolin Encyclopedia has such detail on CHXYMQ's development, but says nothing about the history of the current XHQ.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, wondering about things.

This is the story: When he was still a wandering youth, Zhou Kwongyin went to Shaanxi (or Shanxi?) and learned Hong Quan from there. I think this was different from the Sanhuangbang which arose from the Yellow River basin areas. He met a Shaolin Monk that was doing Rou Quan and was defeated by him, He followed him to Shaolin and there he stayed for a short while and exchanged his Hong Quan with their Rou Quan, and the Shaolin Lao Hong Quan sets were born.

When he became Emperor, he wanted to keep his ex-generals busy and had them help the Shaolin monks create a set of routines that would be the "standard" Shaolin sets to identify if someone had learned from Shaolin or not. The famous Song Tai Zu Chang Quan set was developed then, at the early Song dynasty years.

Now the other thing to keep in mind is that Shaolin was never continuous, it was closes down many times and the monks dispersed all over. Many of the martial monks became teachers or bodyguards.

Each time Shaolin was reopened, the sets had to come back to it from the countryside.
That's why there is so many different kinds of Henan Shaolin based styles. Depending on the time period, they reflect what was done at Shaolin or what was lost at Shaolin too.

So, it is logical that the reason that Shaolin's XHQ looks like another village's XHQ would be that it re-entered Shaolin from there. Whoever was a teacher would teach the XHQ that he was familiar with.

We need to look at the times when Shaolin was closed to see how martial arts there line up with the times it was reopened.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The 2nd set (er lu) of Xiao Hong Quan shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, looks more like the Nanyuan XHQ.

I don't have my books handy, as I have packed up all my books and belongs and getting ready to move this year.

Can someone look in that book and see what it says about the Er Lu XHQ set?

[LFJ]

The 2nd set (er lu) of Xiao Hong Quan shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, looks more like the Nanyuan XHQ.

I don't have my books handy, as I have packed up all my books and belongs and getting ready to move this year.

Can someone look in that book and see what it says about the Er Lu XHQ set?

All it says is that it was created by huansuseng (monks who have returned to secular life).

The best person to do a comparison would be RDH, who has learned the different versions in their respective villages. We spoke about this recently. The current Shaolin erlu XHQ is similar to Ruan village erlu XHQ (which they call Dahong), but the set shown in the encyclopedia is not the same. It has a similar kicking sequence but is short, while RDH's erlu XHQ is longer than yilu.

[LFJ]

So, it is logical that the reason that Shaolin's XHQ looks like another village's XHQ would be that it re-entered Shaolin from there.

Well, at least with Ruan village XHQ they have a well documented history of monk Nuo Tianfa passing Shaolinquan on to them. Their Nanyuan XHQ has been isolated for 360 years, yet despite the separation it is similar to the current XHQ in at least the first 2 roads.

That means they must have a common origin back at Shaolin, and I think it is another evolution of the same original material that went into Xiyuan- CHXYMQ and Mogou XHQ. These sets all follow roughly the same pattern, although with great difference in content and expression. So the original must have been quite a way back and probably looks more like Mogou's version (contact RDH if you haven't seen it).

[RenDaHai]

I think it comes down to the name CHXYM.

Perhaps CHXYM was originally something different that is now lost, but they re-used the name when they absorbed Mogou XHQ. So the history is talking about a different thing. Either that or the history was absorbed when they absorbed the set and referred to them as monks but in fact they are village elders.

I think it was only absorbed mid 1800's. Other forms were absorbed at the same time, like guandong quan.

There are other strange things, my XHQ-3 has an almost identical section to my sects CHXYM, which in turn is different to the standard Tagous.


Mogou XHQ really does run a long the same sequence as curent XHQ, just expanded in each movement. There are even many banshou palms that you can't see because the performer is not emphasizing them.

[LFJ]

Recently I learned of a Songshan sect called Changhuxinyimen related to the rebel Li Jiyu who led a peasant revolt at the end of Ming/start of Qing, and who's sanctuary was Mogou village. Ming Dynasty records say he insincerely made friends with the Shaolin monks, offering a load of resources as tribute, and learned their wugong. Then he took advantage of the monks, catching them off guard and killed them. The representative boxing style of this sect is also called Changhuxinyimen. Ever heard of Li Jiyu? It is said his little peasant army was suppressed by officers lead by General Chen Wangting of Chenjiagou.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Recently I learned of a Songshan sect called Changhuxinyimen related to the rebel Li Jiyu who led a peasant revolt at the end of Ming/start of Qing, and who's sanctuary was Mogou village. Ming Dynasty records say he insincerely made friends with the Shaolin monks, offering a load of resources as tribute, and learned their wugong. Then he took advantage of the monks, catching them off guard and killed them. The representative boxing style of this sect is also called Changhuxinyimen. Ever heard of Li Jiyu? It is said his little peasant army was suppressed by officers lead by General Chen Wangting of Chenjiagou.

Oh, there is way more to the story. it's not that unknown about. The Chen clan in Chen Village strives to keep it quiet though.
Actually the Li Jiyu uprising was pretty big, and his troops took over the whole area, they were headquatered across from Shaolin, in mountain area, where they could easily see the comings and goings at Shaolin. Li Jiyu was concerned the Shaolin would side with the Emperor as they did historically (this happened at the beginning of the Qing Dynasty actually) and he planned a massacre. When the monks were known to be in prayer, he swept down on them on horseback, entering the building where they did their daily prayers and killed over 200 of the monks.
Now, the thing is, Chen Wangting was retired by then, BUT being that the Li family were their COUSINS, he was related to Li Jiyu and was able to go to Shaolin (only 50 miled away) because of the massacre and look at their records and look at material there where they kept their records about martial arts that later would be incorporated into the corpus that formed Chen village martial arts. This exact story and the fact that they don't want to re-open old wounds has been printed in some of the recent Chen TJQ manuals. They admited that the Shaolin arts were appropriated by taking advantage that the place was empty at the time. One of Chen's martial arts teachers, was a practitioner of Tong Bei Quan, and two of his teachers were from Shaolin teaching him Hong Quan and Pao Quan and Taizu Chang Quan and one of his teachers was a Nei Jia Quan practitioner. This was part of the early formation of the Chen Martial Arts, after the massacre they added a lot more. There are word for word copies in the Chen manuals for their weapons and so on that were copied from Shaolin manuals.

[LFJ]

Right! I know the story. I was not familiar with the name Li Jiyu, or his relation to a sect called Changhuxinyimen and his sanctuary in Mogou. Not sure if that says anything in regards to the connection between Mogou XHQ & Shaolin CHXYMQ though.

[RenDaHai]

Wow!

I didn't know about that one.

Well that would definately seem to be CHXYM then. He must have practiced Mogou pai and modified it for his needs. It must have been the style of his soldiers.

It is always a village style practiced in song shan in several places. I suspect it became shaolin syllabus later on because it was popular in the countryside. It is practiced all over the countryside in Song shan but is not in shaolin temple lineages.

This would explain so much about why the technique is not Shaolin temple standard, why Qi Xing quan is so different from the Shaolin Qi xing, I think this would really make sense.

Do we know any more about when exactly this was?

[Sal Canzonieri]

wow!

I didn't know about that one.

Well that would definately seem to be chxym then. He must have practiced mogou pai and modified it for his needs. It must have been the style of his soldiers.

It is always a village style practiced in song shan in several places. I suspect it became shaolin syllabus later on because it was popular in the countryside. It is practiced all over the countryside in song shan but is not in shaolin temple lineages.

This would explain so much about why the technique is not shaolin temple standard, why qi xing quan is so different from the shaolin qi xing, i think this would really make sense.

Do we know any more about when exactly this was?

1640 -- 1643

Li Jiyu was a military graduate of Dengfeng.

Chen Wangting was actually in Li Jiyu's rebellion army, hiding from a death that he caused during an examination. After the rebellion was put down, he went back to his village. So Chen Wangting had plenty of time to learn xiao hong quan (nothing from Da Hong Quan sets is found in Chen Taijiquan) and other Shaolin influenced stuff from that area.

[r.(shaolin)]

Recently I learned of a Songshan sect called Changhuxinyimen .

Hi LFJ
Can you post the Chinese characters for "Changhuxinyimen"
thanks,
r.

[LFJ]

hi lfj
can you post the chinese characters for "changhuxinyimen"
thanks,
r.

长护心意门

......

[r.(shaolin)]

Do you know how many sets they have in 長護心意門 or any the name of the sets?

[LFJ]

Wow!

I didn't know about that one.

Well that would definately seem to be CHXYM then. He must have practiced Mogou pai and modified it for his needs. It must have been the style of his soldiers.

It is always a village style practiced in song shan in several places. I suspect it became shaolin syllabus later on because it was popular in the countryside. It is practiced all over the countryside in Song shan but is not in shaolin temple lineages.

This would explain so much about why the technique is not Shaolin temple standard, why Qi Xing quan is so different from the Shaolin Qi xing, I think this would really make sense.

Do we know any more about when exactly this was?

The way I heard was just that the CHQXYM sect was "related to" Li Jiyu and Mogou, which I took to mean it must have been something from Mogou and that Li Jiyu just practiced it. I then thought, maybe Mogou XHQ's original name was CHXYMQ, named for their sect. But then, possibly because of its connection to Li Jiyu and the massacre of the monks, Mogou let the name go so as not to have their sect associated with that event. Sort of exchanged names with Shaolin when there was the opportunity. The sect might be something to inquire about in Mogou, tactfully of course.

[RenDaHai]

The way I heard was just that the CHQXYM sect was "related to" Li Jiyu and Mogou, which I took to mean it must have been something from Mogou and that Li Jiyu just practiced it. I then thought, maybe Mogou XHQ's original name was CHXYMQ, named for their sect. But then, possibly because of its connection to Li Jiyu and the massacre of the monks, Mogou let the name go so as not to have their sect associated with that event. Sort of exchanged names with Shaolin when there was the opportunity. The sect might be something to inquire about in Mogou, tactfully of course.

The link between Mogou XHQ and normal XHQ is too strong, it is definately old Shaolin XHQ. I'm thinking more along the lines that LiJiyu leanred the mogou style then mixed it with his material and taught it to his sect and this variant survived with the name of the sect CHXYM.

OR possibly because the link was known when Mogou XHQ was returned to Shaolin they renamed it for the famous sect.

If it was the style they practiced, then wouldn't it be somehow disrespectful for Shaolin to practice CHXYM since this sect killed their monks?

[RenDaHai]

1640 -- 1643

Li Jiyu was a military graduate of Dengfeng.

Chen Wangting was actually in Li Jiyu's rebellion army, hiding from a death that he caused during an examination. After the rebellion was put down, he went back to his village. So Chen Wangting had plenty of time to learn xiao hong quan (nothing from Da Hong Quan sets is found in Chen Taijiquan) and other Shaolin influenced stuff from that area.

Cool, cheers Sal.

I don't have a video of it, but I learned in Mogou their 'Lao' hong quan which is a partener form to their XHQ. This is also very interesting and has a few very similar techniques with Chen Taiji lao jia er lu

[LFJ]

Looking at some dates, Chen Wangting (1580–1660) and Ji Longfeng (1588-1662) were contemporaries. Which puts Li Jiyu and Ji Longfeng at about the same time as well. Li Jiyu may have been a Mogou practitioner who became a student of Ji Longfeng.

We've known that the Xinyi (and Xinyiba) related material in Shaolin, as well as the development of Xingyiquan, came out of interactions with Ji Longfeng and his 'rooster style'.

It then stands to reason that if Changhuxinyimen was the name of Li Jiyu's sect and its representative boxing set, and his old sanctuary was in Mogou village, then he is the man who mixed Mogou Xiaohongquan with Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster style, hence the current name and style.

That would definitely explain things like Mogou XHQ and original Qixingquan that is more like traditional Shaolin being altered into their more 'rooster style'.

That would also explain why the current patterns are so identical between CHXYMQ and Mogou XHQ, because it was not that long ago that this took place. Just over 360 years or so.

It is strange though that the gongfu of a sect that killed the monks would become one of their most popular styles in and around Shaolin, but then again maybe not? It must be pretty lihai.

[LFJ]

Do you know how many sets they have in 長護心意門 or any the name of the sets?

It appears that this Songshan sect of Li Jiyu is a mixture of Mogou village Shaolin and Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster, basically by taking existing Mogou sets and altering them with Ji Longfeng's material, since it wasn't really a system anyway.

There is certainly Changhuxinyimenquan and Qixingquan as the main muzi sets, a Liuhequan duilian, and there may have been something with Datongbiquan of the Nanyuan, but we're kind of looking into that now.

[LFJ]

As far as the Nanyuan Datongbiquan somehow being connected with this Changhuxinyimen sect, there are a lot of technique similarities to the CHXYMQ set.

First of all, at the very opening and later before qixing - danbian there is an action called 'laoniu juancao' (old ox rolls up [eats] grass) which looks like shooing chickens, similar to the action repeated in CHXYMQ, for which it is also named the 'chicken shooing' form.

There is also a large reliance on cross hands and variations throughout both sets. But most obvious is the posture called 'dingxi' (fixed knee position). This is a twisted sort of xubu where the back of the left, front knee is set on top of the right knee, left hand guarding at the right shoulder, right hand guarding at the left knee.

The thing about this posture is that actually, at Shi Deyang's school it is not done as in his instructionals, but is done in a high Xiebu, stepping onto the lead leg and raising the rear heel, and the hands use the fengshou (wind hand) aka. rooster claw shape!

I always took it as an embellishment, but upon comparing the rest of the technique set, it is very much similar to CHXYMQ, more so than I ever realized before.

I've also just realized that Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan theories were borrowed in Xinyi Liuhequan via Ji Longfeng, and because it had not yet been created, the 'Xinyi' he taught at Shaolin was actually Tongbi and rooster elements he had newly designed after witnessing a c0ckfight there.

So, that may be our connection between CHXYM and Shaolin Nanyuan Datongbiquan. Li Jiyu did make "friends" with the monks to learn their wugong before massacring them. So his system in the Changhuxinyi sect (men), as a Mogou practitioner who learned at Shaolinsi and was a student of Ji Longfeng, is made up of Mogoupai and Xinyipai (Tongbi + Rooster).

By the way, the xiexing as done in CHXYMQ with full arms almost in a straight line front to back is called 'shizi tongbi' (cross full arms).

[RenDaHai]

Do you know how many sets they have in 長護心意門 or any the name of the sets?

Sets in this school;

CHXYM, QiXing quan, GuanDOng quan, DaTong bi, WuXing Shi Liu fa, Liuhe quan dui lian.

All of the above forms have versions that are not CHXYM. But there is a DaTongbi practiced at Tagou that is the same QuanPu as the standard one, but uses techniques from CHXYM.

Then the standard QiXing quan IS the CHXYM version. There is also another qixing quan which is the same sequence but different techniques.

Before I thought the above forms were just Tagous variation, but I have seen GuanDong quan done in another place also with CHXYM techniques and I have seen versions without. Now I think maybe all these forms that have a CHXYM version are from the CHXYM sect.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Acccck! I have to bring this information about these people into my Origins of Xin/Xingyi Quan chapter.

I have pages of information in that chapter that would support your ideas LFJ about Ji Longfeng in my book. Perhaps I should make a PDF of that chapter and let you read it and in return you can help me finish that chapter so that it incorporates that insights that are now coming through about Li Jiwu and Ji Longfeng.

Also, guys, think about the story of Chen TJQ being created, Chen village always claims that Chen Wangting changed his Chen Village Pao Quan into what later became knowns as Chen Taiji Quan, AFTER he met up with this supposed "Jiang Fa" (who he really was is a mystery" who WAS an officer IN LIYU's REBEL ARMY and taught Chen some new material that softened the Chen village martial arts into something new.
Which means what? That he taught Chen a martial art such as Tongbei Quan?
It IS known that Tongbei Quan was an early influence on Chen TJQ. so this info would be the missing link that proves what Jiang Fa really taught!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Looking at some dates, Chen Wangting (1580–1660) and Ji Longfeng (1588-1662) were contemporaries. Which puts Li Jiyu and Ji Longfeng at about the same time as well. Li Jiyu may have been a Mogou practitioner who became a student of Ji Longfeng.

We've known that the Xinyi (and Xinyiba) related material in Shaolin, as well as the development of Xingyiquan, came out of interactions with Ji Longfeng and his 'rooster style'.

It then stands to reason that if Changhuxinyimen was the name of Li Jiyu's sect and its representative boxing set, and his old sanctuary was in Mogou village, then he is the man who mixed Mogou Xiaohongquan with Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster style, hence the current name and style.

That would definitely explain things like Mogou XHQ and original Qixingquan that is more like traditional Shaolin being altered into their more 'rooster style'.

That would also explain why the current patterns are so identical between CHXYMQ and Mogou XHQ, because it was not that long ago that this took place. Just over 360 years or so.

It is strange though that the gongfu of a sect that killed the monks would become one of their most popular styles in and around Shaolin, but then again maybe not? It must be pretty lihai.

I don't see how Li Jiyu could have been a direct student of Ji Longfeng, there are too many reasons why they would not have been at the same place at the same time, BUT he could have learned Ji's material from Shaolin instead. Pretty much we can be sure that if he didn't learn Ji Longfeng's material, they both Ji and Li learned Tongbei Quan at some point. Especially since it is pretty well know that his officer Jian Fa taught tongbei to Chen Wangting.

[LFJ]

The 'rooster' techniques are attributed to Ji Longfeng, and one thing we can clearly see is that it is definitely a defining characteristic of the Changhuxinyimen sect, throughout all of its boxing sets. So Li Jiyu surely learned this, if not directly from Ji Longfeng when he was in the area, then from Shaolin when Li interacted with them. It is also said Chen Wangting accompanied Li Jiyu in studying at Shaolin Yonghuatang (Southern Courtyard), learning Xinyiba skills. So it must have already been in Shaolin, and that's where Li got it.

[RenDaHai]

Which means what? That he taught Chen a martial art such as Tongbei Quan?
It IS known that Tongbei Quan was an early influence on Chen TJQ. so this info would be the missing link that proves what Jiang Fa really taught!

That would make sense.

Also later on HongDong Tongbei quan is mixed with early Chen martial arts, I would assume in earlier times they knew their origin styles.

LaoJia Er Lu is even now called Pao Chui right?

I mean, in terms of old Chen MA we only have LaoJia Yi Lu and Er Lu right? The others are all newer creations right?

[Royal Dragon]

I am very interested in this legend. It's a gap in my Zhao Kuang Yin Research. Can you elaborate?


Its a good summary,

But I don't see any need to change our currently accepted version of things.

I think Hong Quan was imported to Shaolin in Song.

500 years ago or so a manifestation of JinNaluo took the then extant Shaolin styles to Mogou village. This is what XHQ looked like at the time, it remained more unchanged in the village because they were not trying to refine it.

Then XHQ evolved in Shaolin and was refined, emphasizing the palms and simplifying the movements. At which point NuoTianFa was healed in Ruan Village and in gratitude taught them the then extant Shaolin Nanyuan styles.

This was still form SHaolin temple this Nanyuan version the current set gradually evolved.

As to the XHQ in the XiYuan Pai, this either changed its name to CHXYM so as not to confuse with their XHQ OR it vanished and then CHXYM was created from interaction with Mogou Village, again not wanting another XHQ they used a pre existing name (CHXYM).

So Shaolin temple is still responsible for XHQ but the village styles are off shoots, frozen in time.

Luotuo village hong quan is then an off shoot from some other point, more recently looking at it.



It should be noted however Luotuoyuans claims are the boldest. Their village is also the origin of the popular Taizu ChangQuan set. They claim they learned it in Song from ZhaoKuanYins armies in Shanxi province. Then 7-800 years ago many people in Henan died and their family moved there from Shanxi. Then they interaced with Shaolin (which may have already had a similar set since it was taught to a large army in song). If they are correct Taizu Chang Quan is the military style responsible for much of the current styles.



As to the origin of Hong QUan, I think Sal is our resident expert. I have forgotten, though my master always told me to remember the names of ZHaoKuanYins teachers. There were two of them. They are responsible in some legends for the origin of our XHQ. Later they told him [ZKY] to go to Shaolin where he meets with yet another manifestation of JinNaLuo. There is a great fairy tale of their meeting. I will have to record it in full.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok guys, I have a question, on a more zoomed out, and larger scope (you'll see my AKTS influence here)

When it comes to

Body mechanics
Catalog of techniques
Footwork
Entrance strategies
Management of the opponents energies and motion.

Are there any significant differences between the content of any of these styles?

I am not talking about form choreography or flavor, or who made what when. I am discussing the core central components of all these styles.

Do any of these sets/systems have anything in them that makes them significantly different (not just a trick technique or concept, or two), skills set or technology wise that makes them uniquely different arts? Or are they just different mixes and matches of the same material all choreographed in different containers that are passed in different scholastic curriculums?

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kHI39EyPU

After talking about all kind of different versions of Shaolin Hong Boxing. What about this one ?


Best regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kHI39EyPU

After talking about all kind of different versions of Shaolin Hong Boxing. What about this one ?


Best regards,
Xian

Hey Xian,

This is just the most common Xiao Hong Quan, only it is done with WuGuLun Pai Shen Fa. It differes a little at the end but nothing significant. The other ones like Mogou pai are very very different in sequence, yet close enough to see similarites.

[RenDaHai]

When it comes to

Body mechanics
Catalog of techniques
Footwork
Entrance strategies
Management of the opponents energies and motion.

Are there any significant differences between the content of any of these styles?
?

The Body Mechanics is slightly different, though it is highly dependant on the level of the practitioner. Usually it is cross compatible in Shaolin with the exception of a couple of the more extreme sects.

The catalogue of techniques is largly similar between all.

The footwork again is similar with the remoter village styles relying on larger stances than those closer to the temple.

Some shou fa and entrance strategies are quite different

Jie li da ren, borrow power principle is the same in all.

[RenDaHai]

I am very interested in this legend. It's a gap in my Zhao Kuang Yin Research. Can you elaborate?

Not really I'm afraid. I have heard the story many times but in Chinese and I am not confident I can relay it accurately. I want to get it written down some time.

But it is about ZKY wanting to go to Shaolin temple and his master holding him back until he is ready then about his meeting with JinNaLuoWang.

JinNaLuo appears in Shaolin mythology in more than one timeline which is confusing.

[rett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kHI39EyPU

After talking about all kind of different versions of Shaolin Hong Boxing. What about this one ?


Best regards,
Xian

Thanks for posting this :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Not really I'm afraid. I have heard the story many times but in Chinese and I am not confident I can relay it accurately. I want to get it written down some time.

But it is about ZKY wanting to go to Shaolin temple and his master holding him back until he is ready then about his meeting with JinNaLuoWang.

JinNaLuo appears in Shaolin mythology in more than one timeline which is confusing.

When you think you can convey it, I am interested in hearing the story. The only one I know is the one Sal posted earlier in the thread.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Anyone familiar with this version of Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan:

http://www.entdeckungsreisende.de/kungfu/shaolin-kung-fu/formen/xiao-hong-quan-shaolin-xue-xiao-long.html

This site shows the standard version and then this version.

[RenDaHai]

Anyone familiar with this version of Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan:

http://www.entdeckungsreisende.de/kungfu/shaolin-kung-fu/formen/xiao-hong-quan-shaolin-xue-xiao-long.html

This site shows the standard version and then this version.

It is the standard version.

It just shows each stance from several angles so there are many pictures and it is a little confusing. Nothing really our of the ordinary though.

[LFJ]

Ha, that's hilarious. The drawing has a backward hat, sunglasses, and a little belly. :D

[GeneChing]

READ Hong Quan: The Red-Style Boxing From Shaanxi and Gansu Provinces By Lucas Christopoulos in our WINTER 2019 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1446). Available digitally too via Zinio (https://www.zinio.com/publisher/kung-fu-tai-chi-m5078).

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine//images/mcover/201901winter.jpg