Pak Sao ?

[Liddel]

We all know Pak Sao is a basic parry that can be applied in many differnt situations and resembles parries of many differnt styles.

I noticed when watching others using Wing Chun in vids posted - that there seems to be a huge number of people applying Outside or Inside Pak Sao to the crook of the opponents elbow....

Where i train this contact point is a no - no, as it doesnt have sufficent control of the attack action, compared with positions closer to the wrist.

Also the mis-use of Inside Pak on the elbow, against a round punch can see the opponents forearm bending around your Pak's elbow contact point, still delivering an attack force.... which is dangerous.

If we watch an average boxing match with parries present - the majority of boxers ive seen and even in UFC fights, fighters seem to parry anywhere on the forearm area close to the wrist.

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Inside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Outside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

and Why ?

DREW

[YungChun]

Pak from no contact:

Timing is everything....

If a little early in the timing then closer to the wrist...

If a little late in the timing then closer to the elbow....

Precise positioning of the Pak on a particular part of the arm, from a no contact starting point, in fighting is unrealistic IMO...

In either case the centerline is the approximate location in space...

Energy is vectored into the center. <except when clearing boundries--side Pak>

From within contact the concept of hand replacement comes in so the Pak then is applied at the approximate location of the obstruction to be removed...

[AndrewS]

To me, pak is 'slap'- a slapping, shocking parry. The shocking action is the initial pak sao, the positional stuff afterwards is gum (pin) and fook (control).

I don't like pak sao. Pak favors chasing hands and while it can be a useful tool, I think people get way too fond of it as it pays off more in less realistic/intense practice where most people spend there time.

That being said, I look at pak sao in two different lights depending on range.

In free motion, pak is parrying a straight punch, shocking it to set up a counter either with the same or other hand. It seems to work better (ok, only) when used from mid-forearm down. Getting to the elbow is *very* close to being hit and seems difficult and dangerous if the other person is actually punching for you. This seems to hold for both inside and outside pak. Inside pak is dangerous and usually sucks, unless followed by an immediate attack with the pak hand covering the line for the coming rear shot.

When someone shells up on me, outside pak to the shoulder can be useful in making a hole, as can inpak, though that tends to spin them into me, so I have to be aware of the opposite side hand coming in.

In the clinch, inpak is useful for bumping off a neck tie. I prefer to use it down and out, on the elbow to remove the single neck tie, with my elbow up for some control of the other side of the body. I generally find little use for outside pak in a clinch.

Dunno if that helps.

Andrew

[Liddel]

Both very logical reasonings - we do share attributes.

Gum(pinning) as well as control is important to me also Andrew, as we focus on clearing the center or breaking the bridge as its often reffered to in VT.


Precise positioning of the Pak on a particular part of the arm, from a no contact starting point, in fighting is unrealistic IMO...

I dont really agree with this one point though. I dont have much trouble applying my Pak to the right contact point - straight line punches like Jabs etc....

Boxers do it in fights all the time and hit the same space. Its not like im mm perfect but within the forearm and below the elbow.

I just see using Pak Sao at the elbow as a dangerous move and wanted an insight from those that perhaps have been taught that way.... as to the reasoning behind that applicaation. :rolleyes:

DREW

[anerlich]

In TWC we are taught to try to control elbows and knees. We look to pak slightly in front of the elbow rather than right on the crook.

The tradtional advice against pak'ing near the wrist is that it exposes the pak'er to a folding elbow, but I don't know how realistic such a follow up is if he's really putting power into that initial punch. Also that the elbow moves slower than the fist/wrist and thus is easier to track and stop.

That's for the outside pak sao. IMO inside pak sao is next to useless against a hook punch - it requires too much accuracy. Bil sao is better and stronger if the hook punch is wide open enough (i.e. crappy), but to be honest I feel far more comfortable using crazy monkey boxing style hairbrush type blocks (or "high bon sao") with the elbow up if I can't evade a hook to the head.

A crappy lead pak against a jab leaves you wide open to a follow up lead hook. Keep that hand up there.

[Liddel]

Nice points Andrew, thanks.

We only ever use Pak against the more straight punches... for us the second most important part of Pak Sao is the timing between the contact of the Pak and follow up action. With good timing one couldnt follow with an elbow, its to late IMO.

Something to think about....
If you do a static test - stand face to face with a guy and Pak his elbow hold it and try to control him while he struggles about.
Repeat the test with your hand more towards the wrist.

I feel more control the closer you get to the wrist.

This is fixed and static. If it were dynamic he would have way more power. Same result, more control comes from a position closer the wrisit.

Im not trying to say we hold on after applying Pak Sao but merely most of the energy from punches is in the forearm closer to the wrist, which is what you would be trying to stop/jam.

One other aspect of this position from a close contact POV - is that the resulting shape of your forearm and elbow creates your own space on your center whilst taking room from your opponent closing his room to move and create actions.Where as the shape of the elbow would not cut off the opponents space if the Pak were at/nearer the elbow.

:)
DREW

[Jeff Bussey]

We all know Pak Sao is a basic parry that can be applied in many differnt situations and resembles parries of many differnt styles.

I noticed when watching others using Wing Chun in vids posted - that there seems to be a huge number of people applying Outside or Inside Pak Sao to the crook of the opponents elbow....

Where i train this contact point is a no - no, as it doesnt have sufficent control of the attack action, compared with positions closer to the wrist.

Also the mis-use of Inside Pak on the elbow, against a round punch can see the opponents forearm bending around your Pak's elbow contact point, still delivering an attack force.... which is dangerous.

If we watch an average boxing match with parries present - the majority of boxers ive seen and even in UFC fights, fighters seem to parry anywhere on the forearm area close to the wrist.

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Inside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Outside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

and Why ?

DREW

Hey Drew,
I think applying pak sao is all dependant on your position. The closer you are to your opponent the further up the arm you'll apply it. In fact if you can sink the elbow into your opponent (from your pak) you can send him away.
Personally, I love pak sao and believe it's like what AndrewS said as a shocking slap, but it can also be an absorber as well.

If you buy into the shocking slap thing, then who is to say that I couldn't pak sao someone's face or chest. It may become a strike at that point, but that's why I like it.

J

[monji112000]

We all know Pak Sao is a basic parry that can be applied in many differnt situations and resembles parries of many differnt styles.

I noticed when watching others using Wing Chun in vids posted - that there seems to be a huge number of people applying Outside or Inside Pak Sao to the crook of the opponents elbow....

Where i train this contact point is a no - no, as it doesnt have sufficent control of the attack action, compared with positions closer to the wrist.

Also the mis-use of Inside Pak on the elbow, against a round punch can see the opponents forearm bending around your Pak's elbow contact point, still delivering an attack force.... which is dangerous.

If we watch an average boxing match with parries present - the majority of boxers ive seen and even in UFC fights, fighters seem to parry anywhere on the forearm area close to the wrist.

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Inside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

Wheres your ideal position, to place your Outside Pak Sao with regard to a comming punch ?

and Why ?

DREW

physically if you compare how hard it is to pak someone closer to the wrist compared to someone on the elbow or even higher you will find its very hard the closer you get to the shoulder. This is the way the body was created. It has to do with the muscles and the body structure.

Some people will say that if you pak or slap or tap (whatever you call it) near the wrist the opponent can follow with a elbow. In reality I don't think this will ever happen, because when he punches he will be with full intent. It is impossible to punch one way with full intent and then in mid-stream as soon as you feel someone redirect change up completely... its not going to happen ever. If someone were to be good at doing it you could fake him out quickly and hurt him very badly.

I can say in some cases you aren't trying to redirect the punch , you could be just covering .. then its ok because it doesn't matter if you can move the hand much or not. In this case I would only say its practical when you aren't in front of the opponent but already in close range at his side.

[nschmelzer]

For me, the paak sau is not a slapping motion. It is the heel of the palm to the crook of the opponent's lead elbow, combined with forward energy. For me, the key is having my elbow tucked in (over my nipple) so my paak sau has structure so when I apply forward energy - I have some force behind the move. But it only works for me after I have made it into trapping range and have been able to obtain some degree of superior position (angle). Without structure and forward energy against the opponent's lead elbow, the paak sau is just hands chasing hands - and a western boxer will destroy you. Just one man's opinion. Thanks for the good topic.

[WoodenYummy]

Interesting insight.... My first Sifu used to have us drill pak to the outside of the elbow in order to jam the punch before it comes out, but only against a straight punch, I agree that paking on the inside of a hook seems bad, not that it can't work, just that there seems to be safer options. I agree with the earlier post about structure supportiung the pak, I think its less useful when "slapped", not that its never happened....

[Liddel]

OK guys....so im getting the opinion from some that one of the reasons others choose to Pak closer to the elbow is because of the possible follow up action with the parried punch.....:rolleyes:

I should just make it clear that on the outside Pak, my initial contact would be aimed towards the wrist end of the forarem but secondary to that is controlling the elbow so that the opponent cant use it against you or from a VT POV so that they couldnt perhaps use Lan Sao to face back towards you etc etc.

Jeff - with you on the elbow position, sinking it to perhaps issue some force to the opponent. This is what i was describing in my last post - taking the space closing down his room to move with elbow position aswell.

nschmelzer - I wouldnt call my Pak Sao energy a slap either (although a good enough term for a discussion) I believe its a manifestation of inch power.
I use the bottom third of my palm as the main contact point of my hand. The forces most at work are my elbow and wrist power and with good timing and aim you tend to get a slapping noise coming from the collision......

One point id like to address aswell is from a contact position when applying Pak Sao ive seen many people use different directional force.

What i mean is if you follow a straight line through the Pak's path it will fall outside the opponents body.... this is ineffecient IMO.

If your Paks path is more towards the center or core of the opponent, with good power you tend to -
1) cut off his space by breaking his bridge and
2) send most of the force towards his body which if not directed away by him can rock his root, giving you more options of control....

I like the ideas that you can use Pak as an attack to any area on the body really.
I totally agree. My Pak Sao and the palm hits i train for the face.... for the most part have exactly the same energies present.

Hinge of the wrist and extension of my elbow..... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the feedback
DREW

[YungChun]

I assume folks are really talking about doing Pak Da...?



I should just make it clear that on the outside Pak, my initial contact would be aimed towards the wrist end of the forarem
The main difference I get from some posts is the 'target'. Pak, <doesn't it mean slap in Cantonese?> as I was taught is just another tool used to clear the centerline. So the center is the actual target and the arm contact is almost incidental and would depend on timing and distance..

With the standard outside application the sudden 'slapping' energy is expolosive and directed into the centerline. It can be used to break their structure or center because of this energy release and vector..

As far as the time on contact of the pak, it seems to me, would depend on what you want the pak to do in the way of breaking their structure or center...

[Liddel]

This is why it all started...;)



I just see using Pak Sao at the elbow as a dangerous move and wanted an insight from those that perhaps have been taught that way.... as to the reasoning behind that applicaation. :rolleyes:
DREW

[byond1]

Like all things in the WCK world - if you get 10 wckers in a room and ask for a definition of pretty much anything, you will get 10 differant definitions - with some overlap.

In the Mainland WCK approach I practise we dont typicaly use the Pak Sau energy- as I learned in H.K WCK. First off the basic expression of Pak Sau in YKS WCK, is actualy called "Chang Sau" / Supporting Palm - and instead of Shocking or slapping, it "Joins" and blends in with , like a suction cup.

In combat, more importantly to the "join" is the attack that occurs with the palm, as one joins. Inch power snaps out to the point of expression on the Palm, but does so, in a way, to not knock the opponents hand away. Not sure if that makes any sence at all. We never push or pull hte opponent away from us. We do Push and Pull methods with the opponents motions, keeping super close distance though.

The force applied can vary. It can subtly join, or be more disruptive and controling. It all is based on what you "feel" from the enemy.

A slap or shock is expressed through the entire hand in Pak Sau, where as the way I do it, expresses force through the smallest point possible, while the rest of my palm, adheres to the opponents arm - setting up further control and disruption

I would say it is the most basic tool for interceping and Joining - while setting up basic control. I would never "intend' on using Chang/Pak by itself and I have trained my neurology to respond with other responces though.

I would say, traditionaly in YKS WCK, would never chase hands - ever. We are going in to attack our enemy. This includes Striking, Kicking, and structure destruction (arms, body structure, horse),via Seizing and Locking, throwing, sweeping, ect .

I would personaly say, our version of Pak/Chang is a nice tool, for flowing into "Keeping Flank", when the opponent tries pulling back there arm and launching another strike. One of my personal uses.

Where one applies it, is based on the range of your enemy at the time of your join. Many use Pak/Chang at the wrist, because they use their WCK at wrist distance and keep the opponent at the tip of their extended punch. I personaly dont believe in that as a standard, and at the minimum seek to be elbow distance - The Jong actualy reinforces the correct distance if understood properly.

In my opinion, there is a "sweet spot" ~between~ the wrist and elbow that is the most logical, as it makes it hard for the opponents elbow or wrist to go around your preasure. Of cource many you will encounter wont have that skill of flow around an attack like that -either which way- but I feel one needs to train to maximize, not train to hope you fight someone who is a "half Arsed Fighter". So optimal in a best case senario, between the wrist and elbow.

I personaly advocate, sliding from the "sweet spot" - up to the elbow, after initial contact, via moving the entire body into the opponents space. Allowing the Palm to slide up and jam their elbow into their body. Which would really be one unbroken motion.

I also believe in "thunder and lighting hands' which was the nickname of YKS WCKers back in the day. Which is using Pak/chang to Join and than slide up into a Jaw strike , typicaly ~after~ i have slid from the sweet spot, up to the Elbow, by moving my entire structure into the enemies space. These type of strikes are very disorientating and are typicaly used to hit the jaw, nose or ears.

I would say, "its never about hands", in the WCK context - its about inserting your entire structure into your opponents ,taking his heart and center, with Pak being the most basic tool to train doing this. I would think it necissary to remember we are a "system" which is modular, and that implies we need all parts to be functional.
Thus if one is simply using Pak as a Parry, your using hands against hands, and doesnt, IMO, maximize the WCK method. Inserting your body does though, hence the maxim - "you must have courage to use WCK" - because you dont stand back and flail hands around, you must welcome and keep or go to your opponent. Of cource if one is talking about use in a sport or Non WCK parry methods for sport fighting, I suppose ones life isnt on the line, and it really doesnt matter, but if one is in a life or death situation, you would want to follow the WCK principles, that is if you are a WCKer.

Use of Pak/Chang on the inside is something I wouldnt advocate, but Kulo WCK makes use of it. To use Pak on the inside you would have to use "Same Hand" - Ie the opponents right punch would be paked by our right hand. This is a very illogical thing to do, IMO, on the inside and dangerous against even a basic fighter. A safer, more intuned with the WCK principles responce would be using a left hand motion to Join and intercept the opponents Right (YKS Lan Sau is perfect and substantialy differant to H.K Lan Sau), while we punched, Palmed or Biued with the other arm- Simultaneous intercepting and attacking.

On a side note, use of Lan Sau on the inside would be applied to the Elbow crease of the opponents arm, with a Juen. I feel, you MUST Juen though into the attack as I almost got hooked in the mouth, by not Juening enough, and had to dodge my head to avoid the hit - Oops!

OK enough rambling.

Brian

[byond1]

Ahh, one last thing.
Obviously all core WCK methods are based around preserving ones center, while taking the opponents center, and destroying it and their structure. Pak/Chang is the most basic tool to do so.

[Jeff Bussey]

Since we're speaking of pak sau :D
First I do agree that slapping may not be the right term, everyone has an image in their head when they hear slap, we personally use the term pulse.

But if I can touch on the absorbing side of pak sau for a second. That feeling is kinda like if you held your arm out in front of you and I threw a heavy wet towel on your arm.
That kind of pak sau coupled with a pulling or pushing motion is fun to play with.

J

[monji112000]

pak means to slap, I could be wrong.. being that I am American, but many Chinese people have told me thats the translation.

In the first form we have two pak saos. You can use it in two major ways.
First the way most people seem to describe it here, the push/ jamming into the center. The second slapping or taping however you want to word it. I haven't noticed any forms that don't include both pak saos.. even if then aren't both practiced.

I prefer the slapping pak sao not the jamming into the center pak sao. Its not often that I have a good position to jam in. Not all Wing Chun styles fight the same way.

Since everyone seems to want to talk about the jamming pak sao, what are some followup technqiues use have used in a fight or sparring. (not including chain punch). I like to use the lifting Tan sao to cover and uppercut the person's liver. That seems to set you up to keep covering and driving in or get way.

JMO what followups do you use?

[TenTigers]

pak-sao to the wrist enables jow-sao-running hand by the opponent, whereas connecting to "the sweet spot" closer to the elbow, controls the opponent's structure. There are styles that can and do strike with full force, and still can run, or change direction when encountering a hand. This is a specialty in SPM as well as some Wing Chun schools. Don't regard this concept too casually.
A shocking pak-sao does not need to adhere to the attacker's arm, as it is occupying the center, and now has a clear line of entry. Doing otherwise would result in chasing hands.

[Liddel]

Its just a term Jeff, we knew what you were talking about ;).

I guess for me the only thing i dont like about using the term Slap...is that to the laymen it could be thought of as including the fingers...and while the fingers, for me anyway, play a part in lowering the Parried attack - they have no place in the intial contact. Thats my reasoning.

The forces are a good idea to play around with to see what results differnt people give you... can they lead the force away with say a Bong ...or does it shock thier horse enough for you to take a split second advantage....

This is all as a result of the force from initial contact.

But lets not forget the most important part of Pak Sao...the follow up.
After all its a good bridge from blocking at long range then following up into VT fighting range. Timing is paramount.

If you stop an action with Pak this only serves one pupose, surviving that attack. Any decent fighter can and should be able to deal with that and give another action.

So if we stop/jam an action, pressing the attack action off the center and following up with a punch we then realise the timing is important...if your not quick enough with the follow up - the opponent can take the space again and your whole initial block is moot. This is emphasised in any chi sao exercise.

Obvioulsy i like to follow with a punch, elbow position is important, so that it covers the blocked action - this means the blocked action has to retract or if the opponent looks to clinch you have the center space to gain advantage during his attempt, or even sprawl a takedown attempt if youve got the skills.

Other follow up actions i like are low leg kicks for starters at longer ranges and for shorter ranges where the attack is totally commited to by the opponent, i like to use the elbow. Which then lends itself to a good hook to the body in the other direction (elbow in for good VT guys :) ) adding good body tourque....situation permitting.

DREW

[YungChun]

So if we stop/jam an action, pressing the attack action off the center and following up with a punch we then realise the timing is important...if your not quick enough with the follow up - the opponent can take the space again and your whole initial block is moot.

I thought folks really meant Pak Da, but seemingly not... Pak Da, that is--hitting with the other hand while you clear with Pak... This incorporates elements like defence/offence as one, Hand Unity, Hand Replacement...etc... Step IN with it--do three movements at once... Speed doubling, economy of time/motion, taking back attack timing/initiative...

Using Pak or any block/parry alone--ie passive blocking IMO isn't high percentage and will often draw a stop hit...

Don't Pak--Pak Da!

[Edmund]

pak means to slap, I could be wrong.. being that I am American, but many Chinese people have told me thats the translation.


You are correct. It means slap.