Silly Question, but I'll ask anyway.

[Lugoman]

Are there any solo exercises to help in chi sao?

I don't get to chi sao much since I'm so new and I definitely lack in forward energy and the ability to keep my elbows in.

[TenTigers]

some people find using the rataan ring helps with elbow position, fluidity, and smooth transitions from bong/tan.

[Lugoman]

some people find using the rataan ring helps with elbow position, fluidity, and smooth transitions from bong/tan.
I've seen the rings in magazines but never knew what they were used for.

Do you put them behind the elbows when doing solo rolling? Seems like the ring would slide off the fook if you didn't.

Thank you.

[TenTigers]

Randy Williams has a dvd dealing soley with the rataan ring, I believe.

[Lugoman]

Randy Williams has a dvd dealing soley with the rataan ring, I believe.

Cool, thank you so much.

[Liddel]

Are there any solo exercises to help in chi sao


Just as a side note - have you seen the movie - "The prodigal son"

Is it Cheung Bo or Leung Yee Tie that has a bamboo contraption for chi sao training, when i saw the movie i was like WTF is that ? :p

You could always build something like that..... :D

DREW

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi,

Jesse Glover showed me a way to use resistance bands to help create forward pressure when doing solo chi sao position changes. PM me if you would like details.

Whatever you do, do so cautiously as you may end up creating bad habits. There is no substitute for a training partner.

WWW

[aelward]

This may sound ridiculous, but I find that lying on your back and doing poon sao is helpful. It creates a downward resistance which, when you are lying on your back, translates to development of forward pressure. You can add a couple of iron wrist rings to help.

IMO, this is better than rattan rings, which cause your arms to develop laterally because of the inside resistance; or from standing iron wrist rings, which have downward resistance, and specifically where the leverage is the worst, causing you to develop stiffer delts.

[monji112000]

Cool, thank you so much.
don't waste your money. Rattan rings force you to put pressure outwards.. even a little its a bad idea. Pressure should be linear, IE forward and backward.

You can shadow chi sao. It sounds stupid, but once you learn a few setups, counters, lop sao, basic rolling , free chi sao ect..
You can combine them and imagine your opponent. Imagine his reaction, thinking that he will always detect your plan, and quickly counter it.
It works, shadow chi sao and shadow boxing are really great tools for Wing Chun.
you can't replace a live person though..

[byond1]

Rattan rings do not force you to put preasure outward. One only does that when one hasnt been properly trained or misunderstands what one has been taught. Rattan ring training has been used in YKS WCK for almost 100 years that we know about.

The key to any training tool, is to understand how to use it or you will train the incorrect things. I cant vouch for Randy williams DVD nor his approach to the Ring, but can vouch for there being authentic uses.

You can train on a Juk Jong or Bamboo Jong, as well, which is a very responsive Jong, that gives you pressure to react to, and is one of the core tools for training Snake Hand WCK.

Training forward intent is of utmost importance to Tang Huen(Rattan Ring) and Juk Jong. This can also be trained with a wall! For example - placing a Dim Jeung/Jik Jeung (verticle palm) on a wall, and apply forward pressure. If your horse isnt good, you will uproot yourself. Its a usefull tool to judge ones root and forward pressure ratio.

Best of luck to you.


B

[byond1]

P.S

The size of the ring is paramount to it working correct. Overlarge size rings will force you to do incorrect things to make use of it. And it isnt placed on the wrist.

What you can train with it is also hingent upon what style WCK you practise. The H.K horizontal hand fook, has no place that I know of in Rattan ring training.

[YungChun]

Are there any solo exercises to help in chi sao?

I don't get to chi sao much since I'm so new and I definitely lack in forward energy and the ability to keep my elbows in.

1. Play your FORM(s)...!

Forward energy and elbow position are elements found in the SLT.. Many folks feel playing the form helped them pick up these things..

2. Learn the correct conditions for each technique and the correct mechanics/concepts of the moves..

Without the correct conditions you won't be able to apply the moves right..

3. Find freinds that are interested and show them what you know. Work with them on drills, etc.. when you have no one else to work with.

4. Work the movements alone in the air if there is no one else to work with and try to get the movements correct along with footwork and structure...


5. Build a little dummy arm that you can mount on a wall or tree and work with that....


6. Do your homework--whatever that is.. Hitting the sandbag, heavy bag, forms, punches, kicks, etc... I bet there is a lot of leftover homework...

HTH

[Lugoman]

Thank you everyone for your replies, this is a lot of information to digest so I will pore over it for awhile and see what I can work with.

In the mean time, I had brainstorm (or was it a light sprinkle?) last night. I have an 12lbs medicine ball that I was toying with. I began rolling it in a poon sua fashion between my forearms, it was impossible to maintain because at some point it would slip out and fall to the ground.

So then I got down on the floor lying on my back and did the same and it tired me out pretty quickly. I did have to keep the preasure forward and my elbows close or catch it in the chest or stomach.

However, in order to do this requires one arm to be more forward than the other, particularly when forming the bong sua, and does nothing for structure etc.

Any thoughts on this?

[anerlich]

In the mean time, I had brainstorm (or was it a light sprinkle?) last night.

Sweet.

Like one of my treachers says al lthe time,

"What's your best training tool? ..... IMAGINATION"

I haven't really tried to work out any solo training stuff for chi sao, but I have come up with a number of solo heavy bag drills for BJJ on my own. Also a number of ways to drill certain open guard sweeps and subs using a belt and the bannisters on my stairwell.

[Lindley]

Lugoman,

This is by far NOT a silly question! It is actually a genuine one.

As mentioned, to address the elbows in, play your Siu Nim Tao form A LOT. Also, try playing the first section with the tan sao/fuk sao movements (often referred to as the three prayers to Budda) very, very slowly. See if you can work to playing that section alone for 20 minutes (Si-Ti Gung Yip Man has been known to do it for an hour). Your hands move ever so slowly and your mind is out to some imaginable place. This we refer to as "Nim Tao", where your hands begin to seek the center without thought. Also, start to put your mind in your elbows and have your elbows go along your body until your wrist and middle finger are in center. Playing the Siu Nim Tao form should be central to this development. Other exercises should support this.

As for forward energy, one cannot study what they do not understand. Define what this is to you and language it. This will be accompllished primarily by playing with a partner, although since you say you are along one thought might be to use a Muk Jong (wooden dummy) or other stationary object simulating an opponent to apply a forward pressure to it, in pulses. Use a wall or a pole. Press and then release. Forward energy is a consistent energy, one which we learn to apply with tension and looseness. Playing a lot of Siu Nim Tao can also help develop this energy in another way because having good hand position, supported by your body structure, will help you maintain good forward energy.

Good luck with your Kung Fu...

[byond1]

Elbows In?????

Yes of cource thats what WCK develops - the handy dandy Rattan Ring is used just for this reason. Not only does it help one learn to keep elbows in faster, you dont even have to ~try~, as the ring keeps the elbows in, so one doesnt have to think about it at all, and can focus on ones relaxation, intent, and Ging release.

I would say the best size should give enough room for both elbows + 2 elbow distance between the elbows. This would give a snug fit but not one that would be crippling:D.

Remember always press forward, dont get lost in the circling motions as many do. Just like with Huen, intent is still forward!

Brian

[Steeeve]

The only way to learn chisao is to to do chisao .....with a partner....in fact chi sao is a drill .....you dont have to learn it like ...I mean combinaition 1 2 3 ....but to learn good structure .... by doing it ....for the bridge...keep the centerline but you dont fight with chi sao

chi sao is just a drill its not wing chun ......

ratten stick could not train the chi sao .......its just a equipment to train two arms defense coordination....like a speed ball for a boxer

Wing chun is a two men drills style for applied it

Steeve

[Lugoman]

Hey Brian (byond1),

I'm may have the wrong idea about how to use the rings. Do your arms need to be inside or out? Seems like if you did the arms outside it would force you push inward instead of outward to roll with the ring.

And Steeeeve,

I understand what you are saying, I'm just looking to supplement my training. class is only an hour long and I don't have anyone outside to train with. I tried teaching my wife poon sau, but she gets bored with it quickly and complains. Although my dog is a natural with the fook saus, when I tried to roll with him he started bitting me. :D

Hitting the speed bag isn't boxing but the speed bag is an attribute trainer.
Chi sua is part of my school's curriculum and I just want to do it as well as I can.

[YungChun]

How many classes per week?

How about getting some of the guys or even one or two of them to get together when there is no class?

What about all that solo work?

What specifically within Chi Sao are you working on right now?

What form are you up to?

What about outside--distance--work? If you get a heavy bag or have one and use it....you'll probably be ahead of the pack...

[Liddel]

Chi sao is part of my school's curriculum and I just want to do it as well as I can.

Are you talking Chi Dan Sao or Chi Sao/sticking in general ?

I dont know your level of training, so take this with a grain of salt per say...

Training Chi Sao alone may help you concentrate on power generation, like inch power in your Jum Sao or structure with regard to elbow positions...but what about practicing the concepts.

If your referring to general sticking when you say Chi Sao..

I would recommend to practice your own VT version of shadow boxing.

Use your mind to see an action coming, block and retaliate with the same hand. Or follow up with any action you can or want to use...as you have been taught.

You may tend to feel the flow between each individual action and begin to realise the energies present in the momentum of the transitions etc. Making it more dynamic.

If your talking about Chi Dan and Poon Sao the shodaow boxing works also, just use actions that segway in and out of each Platform..... You have to use your mind of course...i mean you are alone :rolleyes:

I.E See an action coming, use Tan Da and transition from there into Poon Sao...
(Tan turns to Bong, punch to Fook for Poon or Tan just to Jum Punch to Wu for Chi dan Sao)

It tends to be more functional (IMO :) ) and crosses over well to training drills that are more fixed because you've already been outside the box....

Hope you get what i mean, and hope it helps.

DREW

[YungChun]

I would recommend to practice your own VT version of shadow boxing.

Use your mind to see an action coming, block and retaliate with the same hand. Or follow up with any action you can or want to use...as you have been taught.


Not that I disagree per se but...

In cases where folks are new and/or have not actually fought before with good contact with their WCK I don't think they are going to know what moves to work or how to work them....

If they don't have this experience then whatever they practice probably won't translate well to application.

[YungChun]

Interesting clip..

Note the pad work.. You could work similar moves on a heavy bag...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGdJ7Gy0M8

Interesting sparring too... I see a lot of folks doing this kind of thing, wonder why you don't see much use of elbows on the inside...

[byond1]

Keith -

lets think about "perception" for a minute. For example you studied one particular branch of WCK. For the longest you thought it was the best. You than had a "paradigm" shift - hence your perception changed. Now you realize what you used to learn, isnt so great at all or at least just not as good, as what you learn now .

Many guys in the 80s had this shift in thinking when they first learned TWC.
I to had a paradigm shift like you. I studied HK WCK around 15 years, and had my paradigm shift learning YKS WCK.

Like the X you talk about frequently, that is found in several Mainland WCK branchs, but not found in many VT branchs, there is alot of other components, that are not found in mainstream WCK arts. The Rattan Ring is one of them.

Since you have encountered numerous branchs of VT and what you learn now is the first to contain very particular info, wouldnt it also be logical that there are other components and info, that you simply may not know about or understand, due to its rarety or lack of teachers who understand it and pass it on? Something to think about before discrediting something, before training it.

Now while i respect your right to an opinion, either informed or uninformed- trying to disprove, a legitamate training method, when , to my knowledge you have never trained Mainland WCK that uses the rattan ring, isnt productive nor helpfull.

The original poster didnt ask, for "The H.K answer" - So I partisipated.

Just as you have experianced there is Good VT and Bad VT, even Good WSL VT and Bad WSL VT the same is true on mainland WCK. Some branchs are good, some bad. But with a good teacher and method, the Rattan Ring, Candles, San Bags, and Chop sticks are suplimental methods of conditioning.

Many that study chinese arts, understand, the secrets are never in the forms. But the training methods and conditioning methods, that give one particular "Gung" is what is "secret" or reserved for only proven students

Your analogy of the chair isnt correct, IMO and context of what I am speaking about, as the chair would stop you from training what needed to be trained. This isnt the case with the Rattan Ring. Its similar to the idea of using Jong as a tool, that helps refine your structure and positioning by forcing you to conform to its structures, while learning to fully express Ging. After training it, you remove the Jong, you still walk away with what you trained. You also train the same stuff without the Jong as well thus rounding out, your training and conditioning..It didnt act as a crutch. Neither does the Rattan Ring.

What you said about training the elbow and the X is true - I agree fully - but the rattan ring is a supplimental training tool, and is legitimate.
I dont agree with use of pectorl muscles to power anything though. In the approach I practise our punch is thrown by our Kwa muscle and core, the pec tensing would inhibit force travel up and out through the arm as its thrown.

B

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i've been hitting the sides of door frames in my house just pak or bong or whatever seems to really help my structure ans postioning just an idea