kungfu vrs bjj old clip

[Black Jack II]

Classic bjj fight vrs kung fu cat who I think is Jason Delucia?

In a bizzare way, some small physical elements of it remind you of the Springer meltdown. Don't you just love the BJJ marketing aspect of it thought....;)

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1185411761/Classic_Fight_Between_Royce_Gracie_and_a_Kung_Fu_E xpert

[1bad65]

Rorion's commentary was always entertaining.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And what have we all learned since that fight? Besides the fact that Delucia was not a Kung fu expert, and in fact a Kempo guy?

[rogue]

That your average Kung Fu guy without ground experience would end up the same way as a Kempo guy.

[Knifefighter]

And what have we all learned since that fight? Besides the fact that Delucia was not a Kung fu expert, and in fact a Kempo guy?

Delucia fought a much better fight than pretty much any of the kung fu guys that I saw come into the Academy over the years.

The only people who had anything to to with kung fu who showed much in terms of fighting ability were the JKD guys, one of whom almost knocked out out one of the purple belts in a challenge match (ironically, the purple belt was also an ex-JKD guy).

[sanjuro_ronin]

DeLucia had a couple fights with Royce didn't he?
Always coming back for more, quite the scrapper and fighter.

One day we MAY see the "real" kung fu in action, though I am not holding my breathe...probably see the Sasquatch competing in MMA before that.

[SifuAbel]

That your average Kung Fu guy without ever fighting someone with ground experience would end up the same way as a Kempo guy.

fixed..........

[Black Jack II]

That your average Kung Fu guy without ground experience would end up the same way as a Kempo guy.

Rogue, you mean like this.....;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

[PangQuan]

Well, in contemplation over this particular vid (which i cant watch right now, but im sure i have the right one in mind) we can learn what DeLucia's strengths and weaknesses are in that fight.

We can learn some things about Delucia.

We can make the obvious observation that being well rounded, versed in standup, clinch, and ground are all important. We can learn who, out of those 2 men, won the fights.

Can we learn as a whole about any "style" of fighter in a broad sweeping generalization of people who may have background in specific ethnic martial traditions? No. That would be silly for us to do.

But I think over all the most important lesson here is to NOT fight a bjj player unless you know the ground. To do otherwise would be like attempting to swim across a body of water with out knowing how to swim first. You WILL drown.

[Shaolinlueb]

i give this 2 stars out of 10.

[sanjuro_ronin]

2 Shaken in the right place can cause a lot of discomfort !

[tattooedmonk]

is this fight prior to the UFC fight?? I believe it is. If it is then we know why he was picked to fight in the UFC....because Royce already knew he could beat him!!:D Plus Jason is not a "KUNGFU" Expert.

[Black Jack II]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

[PangQuan]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

Thats part of the problem. There is no set standard for being a "kungfu expert"

and the largest part of that problem being people put forth that claim, and then when defeated, kungfu as a whole gets dogged on.

when in fact that claim should not have probably been made.

oh by the way, I am an expert in everything life has to offer, in all facets and all ways. I am the supremem being on this planet.

see how my words dont really make it so? thats the major problem with people who like to make claims they cannot back up.

when you make a claim of an expert, you need to be able to back that claim up. when you cannot back up your claim, you prove yourself to in fact NOT be an expert.

for instance, if you claim you are an expert in Egyptian history, yet when asked the line of Pharo's you cannot recite, you are in fact obviously NOT an expert.

the test will prove if you are really an expert, in this case, fighting. If you claim to be an expert of fighting, yet cannot hold up. your claim is thus proved to be false.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can argue that, when one choose to fight and represent a system of combat, then, rightlyfully so, that system is being judged.

If someone else doesn't agree with his "representation" of said system, then THEY should "do better".

Jason wasn't a kung fu stylist at all, was he?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

Because he was a kempo guy, not a Kung Fu guy. He should have been billed as a Kempo guy, but wasn't because Kung Fu sells better due to Bruce lee, and David carridine. It wasto Gracie's advantage to let him bill himself as a Kung Fu guy as well, because they were out to dominate the Kung Fu world.

Just because Kempo guys like to sell thier art as Kung Fu for marketing appeal, does not make them a practiioner of a purebred authentic, real Kung Fu system....it makes them Kempo guys.

[SifuAbel]

I didn't pick him to represent me. If I knew he was going to be the end all-be all measure of kung fu then I'd have call out for a more extensive try out.

And that scott guy, oh god, that was bad. I didn't pick him either.

[SifuAbel]

And not to knock kempo, Liddell was a kempo guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

Because he was a kempo guy, not a Kung Fu guy. He should have been billed as a Kempo guy, but wasn't because Kung Fu sells better due to Bruce lee, and David carridine. It wasto Gracie's advantage to let him bill himself as a Kung Fu guy as well, because they were out to dominate the Kung Fu world.

Just because Kempo guys like to sell thier art as Kung Fu for marketing appeal, does not make them a practiioner of a purebred authentic, real Kung Fu system....it makes them Kempo guys.

If Ed parker was alive, he'd hit you with his ukelaylee !

[Black Jack II]

Because he was a kempo guy, not a Kung Fu guy.

His own site has 5 Animal Kung Fu listed all over it, now again there is not a chart showing who he learned from or anything about his specific system, but those words are there as bright as day.

His Aiki Kempo system I believe is something new.

[SifuAbel]

Doesn't make it real.

And again, I didn't pick him. Did anyone here pick him? Was there a committee I missed? Was there an international convention dedicated to setting up elections or try outs for the ultimate champion of kung fu? No. LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

But if he had won...

[SifuAbel]

Sure, some would take the opportunity. But they would know. And I still wouldn't have picked him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like they do with Cung le.

[Black Jack II]

Doesn't make it real.

Of course it does not make it real. It seem's though that in the confines of what one may consider "real" in cma, that topic itself can be dragged back and forth between a number of different people, bickering about what is what and who is who.


And again, I didn't pick him.

Actually, even if you did it would be nothing to sh!t on the toilet rim about. The guy has a decent fight record, has actually stood up and competed in mma, and for all intent and purposes is a fighter.

The selection could of been worse.

[1bad65]

Read the book 'No Holds Barred: Evolution' by Clyde Gentry III DeLucia was a legit Kung-Fu guy. Of course he does not represent all KF guys, ans Royce does not represent all BJJ guys.

[SifuAbel]

The selection could of been worse.


His fight record and ability are not in question. Its the fact that OTHER people want to make this the Flag baring poster child for all kung fu.

[Black Jack II]

Its the fact that OTHER people want to make this the Flag baring poster child for all kung fu.

No doubt there.

In essence its absurd to really say styles make fights, its not just that simple, its more about the enviroment dictating the fight, and by fight I am talking about a self defense situation here. Last time I checked people don't have a day glow aura over there heads stating what training they have in what martial art.

Even if they did it would not mean a lick of camel ****.

[SevenStar]

is this fight prior to the UFC fight?? I believe it is. If it is then we know why he was picked to fight in the UFC....because Royce already knew he could beat him!!:D Plus Jason is not a "KUNGFU" Expert.

1. it was before the UFC fight
2. delucia then decided to take up bjj because he realized the importance of groundwork.
3. delucia has a better fight record than ANY kung fu guy you can point out who is fighting mma.
4. why does he have to be an "expert" in order to compete?

[SevenStar]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

Because he was a kempo guy, not a Kung Fu guy. He should have been billed as a Kempo guy, but wasn't because Kung Fu sells better due to Bruce lee, and David carridine. It wasto Gracie's advantage to let him bill himself as a Kung Fu guy as well, because they were out to dominate the Kung Fu world.

Just because Kempo guys like to sell thier art as Kung Fu for marketing appeal, does not make them a practiioner of a purebred authentic, real Kung Fu system....it makes them Kempo guys.

who said he was a kempo guy? he said himself he was a kung fu guy. He later started bjj and now he is on an aiki-kempo kick. IMO, the gracies weren't out to dominate the kung fu world specifically, but the tma world in general.

Hell, after all this time, who really cares if he is or isn't a kung fu guy? he's a fighter with a better pro record than probably anyone on this forum...

[Knifefighter]

is this fight prior to the UFC fight?? I believe it is. If it is then we know why he was picked to fight in the UFC....because Royce already knew he could beat him!!:D Plus Jason is not a "KUNGFU" Expert.

That challenge match was before his UFC fight. He then trained with the Gracies. After that, he entered the UFC. The Gracies felt it was disrespectful of him to enter after training with them, which is why Royce snapped his arm in the UFC match.

[rogue]

If Ed parker was alive, he'd hit you with his ukelaylee !

Now that's funny :D

[tattooedmonk]

1. it was before the UFC fight
2. delucia then decided to take up bjj because he realized the importance of groundwork.
3. delucia has a better fight record than ANY kung fu guy you can point out who is fighting mma.
4. why does he have to be an "expert" in order to compete? Did he decide after this fight or after the UFC fight?? He looked worse in the UFC fight.IMHO

He is no kung fu expert. He said he was five animal kung fu.He does not really represent kung fu IMHO.

He does not have to be an expert to compete.

He was billed as a five animals kung fu expert.

Which you can see from the pre fight warm up and profile he was nothing of the sort.

[rogue]

That challenge match was before his UFC fight. He then trained with the Gracies. After that, he entered the UFC. The Gracies felt it was disrespectful of him to enter after training with them, which is why Royce snapped his arm in the UFC match.

Now that's so stupid a mentality it would even make a TMA grand master blush.

[Knifefighter]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

Because he was a kempo guy, not a Kung Fu guy.

His website says he was trained in Five Animal Kung Fu:

"As a boy Jason was legally adopted by his kung fu teacher. He studied many years, and was tested in the tradition of the time: the sash test.
The sash test was a ritual combat endeavor in which the winner was signified by the removal of the sash of his opponent by incapacitation, stealth, or other. He failed once and passed the second time.
In 1992 in response to his direct challenge. Jason went to Los Angeles to challenge Steven Seagal to a fight in his Dojo. He proved reluctant, but there were other takers. One, Royce Gracie, and his dynasty took him up on a challenge, which begat a rematch, which begat an invitation to fight in Japan.
It was his career in Japan which cultivated him to a higher dimension. It forced Jason to first excel at the popular techniques of the time. It also began the rebirth of his core techniques, five animal kung fu, which he was able to transpose into aikido as a less physically demanding and more natural version."

[Knifefighter]

He looked worse in the UFC fight.IMHO

He is no kung fu expert. He said he was five animal kung fu.He does not really represent kung fu IMHO..

He did manage to beat Scott Baker, another kung fu guy.

[The Willow Sword]

Pretty much all the Kempo schools i have ever seen online or in cities call what they do a style of kungfu. dragon and tiger. it is a hybrid kung fu system correct?
YES CORRECT.

Peace,TWS

[Jay's Camp]

Thats part of the problem. There is no set standard for being a "kungfu expert"

and the largest part of that problem being people put forth that claim, and then when defeated, kungfu as a whole gets dogged on.

when in fact that claim should not have probably been made.

oh by the way, I am an expert in everything life has to offer, in all facets and all ways. I am the supremem being on this planet.

see how my words dont really make it so? thats the major problem with people who like to make claims they cannot back up.

when you make a claim of an expert, you need to be able to back that claim up. when you cannot back up your claim, you prove yourself to in fact NOT be an expert.

for instance, if you claim you are an expert in Egyptian history, yet when asked the line of Pharo's you cannot recite, you are in fact obviously NOT an expert.

the test will prove if you are really an expert, in this case, fighting. If you claim to be an expert of fighting, yet cannot hold up. your claim is thus proved to be false.

So True!

In fact JFS is a good example, Master of everything (including mouth boxing), and ability of NONE!:D

[Black Jack II]

He is no kung fu expert. He said he was five animal kung fu.He does not really represent kung fu IMHO.

Tough, either way you call it, for good or bad or indifferent he was/is a kung fu player.

Like I said, his fight record is long, he has a fighters heart, what better pick could you want with the exception of a hands down winner, get real.

[SifuAbel]

It also began the rebirth of his core techniques, five animal kung fu, which he was able to transpose into aikido(?!?!?!?) as a less physically demanding and more natural version."

Like I said, I didn't pick him.

[SifuAbel]

So True!

In fact JFS is a good example, Master of everything (including mouth boxing), and ability of NONE!:D

Can you say creepy non sequitur vaginal bleeding?

[1bad65]

So True!

In fact JFS is a good example, Master of everything (including mouth boxing), and ability of NONE!:D

Aren't you being a little rough on JFS? He knew how to quit quite well!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Wasn't his Five animals from some sort of Kempo line? If I remember correctly it was, which means it's not Kung Fu, it's some sort of Kempo creation.

[SifuAbel]

Aren't you being a little rough on JFS? He knew how to quit quite well!
can you say creepy collecting of vaginal bleeding?

[SifuAbel]

Look guys, win or lose, he didn't display anything that was familiar as a kung fu style. A few kicks, a few spins, but nothing that displays signatures of a style.

And yes, we can tell.

He did win matches too, it isn't like he didn't . Whatever he was doing.

Again, are you people going to continue making this into the Kung fu sample 0f ages?

[1bad65]

Look guys, win or lose, he didn't display anything that was familiar as a kung fu style.


Nor did JFS. So does he not do Kung-Fu?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that's so stupid a mentality it would even make a TMA grand master blush.

Actually, that is very much in line with what a TMA instructor WOULD do to a former student who decided to use what HE taught him against his own school.

[SevenStar]

Did he decide after this fight or after the UFC fight?? He looked worse in the UFC fight.IMHO

He is no kung fu expert. He said he was five animal kung fu.He does not really represent kung fu IMHO.

He does not have to be an expert to compete.

He was billed as a five animals kung fu expert.

Which you can see from the pre fight warm up and profile he was nothing of the sort.

many of the guys back then were billed as 'expert'. van cliffe was as well. So was the wing chun guy. I am guessing that was the promoters / announcers doing, not the actual fighters.

regardless of what you saw, he has a better record than any other known cma guy in the mma world, with over 30 wins to his credit.

[SevenStar]

Look guys, win or lose, he didn't display anything that was familiar as a kung fu style. A few kicks, a few spins, but nothing that displays signatures of a style.


a knee to his opponent's face. The position he is in while doing it resembles "golden rooster stands on one leg" he actually has a pic of him landing the technique on his site and has it listed as a crane technique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

a knee to his opponent's face. The position he is in while doing it resembles "golden rooster stands on one leg" he actually has a pic of him landing the technique on his site and has it listed as a crane technique.

I though that was "dog urinates on hibiscus"...

[Black Jack II]

I though that was "dog urinates on hibiscus"...

No, you have that one misplaced.

It looks more like the fabled technique called "mongoloid r@ping the snow leopard."

[1bad65]

many of the guys back then were billed as 'expert'. van cliffe was as well. So was the wing chun guy. I am guessing that was the promoters / announcers doing, not the actual fighters.

The UFC took the best qualified of the guys who applied to be in the show. On the early UFCs, they simply put ads for fighters in the popular MA mags of the time. I think it was not until around UFC 3 that they received over 100 applications. Many of the well known martial artists of the day had way too much to lose to enter it. Emin Boztepe, Frank Dux, 'Bonecrusher' Smith, and Ernesto Hoost were a few of the guys who actually received invites guaranteeing them a spot in the UFC who declined.

[SifuAbel]

a knee to his opponent's face. The position he is in while doing it resembles "golden rooster stands on one leg" he actually has a pic of him landing the technique on his site and has it listed as a crane technique.


If thats all it takes, then EVERYBODY was kung fu fighting. :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

yeah, but regardless, is that not a direct application of the stance in combat?

[SifuAbel]

yeah, but regardless, is that not a direct application of the stance in combat?
For the purpose of making it a siganture...
Being that it could be used for quite a few things, that several styles have a knee lift and that the way he got there may or may not have been the same, no.

Its not at all about individual techniques. Bouncing around and doing spin kicks is more TKD than CMA.

[PangQuan]

If thats all it takes, then EVERYBODY was kung fu fighting. :rolleyes:

Were those cats fast as lightning?

[SifuAbel]

woh ho ho hoooooooooooooooooo................

[msg]

all i know is royce still hits and swings his punches like a bei.tch

[1bad65]

all i know is royce still hits and swings his punches like a bei.tch


Alot of the Gracies still have that 'BJJ is the best' attitude and really dont cross-train enough.

Renzo is the best one due to his willingness to incorporate other arts into his 'game', IMO.

[neaikikai]

I see clips like this all the time. to me if a bjj master is rushing you to bring you down, the last thing I would do is go straight back in a line like this guy did and try to strike him. I firmly believe either a judo style throw, you know he pushes you pull, or a jujisu or aikido arm or wrist lock would serve someone better, than just going straight back. Try to get behind him, around him, don't go in a straight line back, what does everyone else think?

[David Jamieson]

bjj aint mma.

boxing aint mma

wrestling aint mma

muay thai aint mma

karate, kungfu an dthe rest aren't mma.


one could take anything and incorporate it as long as it speaks to the ranges that you have to deal with and only if you want to do mma.

ufc, as applied in teh ring isn't really mma either, itr's ufc and functions on the ruleset of ufc which negates a lot of really cool things you can do in a fight that can be taken from any number of fighting styles or simply just be dogass powerful and useful at the point in time.

anyway. just saying. There sure are a lot of ufc fans in this kungfu forum lately though. I guess there aren't enough places for them to hang out anymore? :p

[chivalrous hall]

Rorion's states "this guy is a kung fu representative" so who or where is Kungfu and when did he say to this guy "Now you be my representative"
there r people out there who have no training in any "titled whatever" yet they can beat the crap out of most even the ones trained in so and so.

"Opinions r like A$$holes...evryones got one":D

[SevenStar]

Alot of the Gracies still have that 'BJJ is the best' attitude and really dont cross-train enough.

Renzo is the best one due to his willingness to incorporate other arts into his 'game', IMO.

incorrect. have you ever TALKED to any of them? if you ask royce, he will very openly tell you that he is NOT an mma guy - he is a bjj guy who fights in mma events.

[1bad65]

incorrect. have you ever TALKED to any of them? if you ask royce, he will very openly tell you that he is NOT an mma guy - he is a bjj guy who fights in mma events.


Then how am I incorrect? I just said many don't really cross-train enough. You said I was wrong, then pointed out Royce says he is a 'BJJ guy'? I honestly am confused, not being difficult.

[diego]

Why is he not a kung fu expert.....what is the set standard for a kung fu expert?

because the real kung fu experts had weapons fighting experiance...uno the old village farmers fighting thieves...government servicemen protecting caravans before guns came out etc:)

I think that's why the old masters put so much time in stance training and focusing on the one strike kill...cuz he most likely woould have a knife in his power hand, and grab with the jab hand...it takes three to five years to western box, I'm thinking it would take 10-20 to fight with the sword, staff, double daggers, whip etc with the proper chinese footwork methods.

Haven't done weapons training tho!.