Human Weapon 2 - OMG !!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm in shock. Will have to watch it several times again (I taped it) in order to give exact details...

BUT...

The Traditional Wing Chun Butterfly Sword form and techniques (ie.- applications against other weapons) that I've learned from William Cheung look almost exactly like some of the escrima, kali, and silat that was demoed on the show. Right down to some very specific details and fan sao (follow up moves). Including also footwork, figure eight slashes and thrusts, etc...Very speciifc stuff. I'm not talking generalities here.

Including even some unarmed techniques vs. unarmed punches coming in at you - including some finishes to such moves that end in armlocks and throws.

I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg (it was mentioned that Chinese martial arts had an influence on FMA - as was arts from other countries)...

BUT I'M JUST IN SHOCK RIGHT NOW ! :eek:


P.S.- Very different than the Butterfly Swords (both form and applications) I learned/saw during my Moy Yat days.

[Knifefighter]

P.S.- Very different than the Butterfly Swords (both form and applications) I learned/saw during my Moy Yat days.

Fight and/or spar full contact with it and it will be even different.

It will look more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c&mode=related&search=









.

[TenTigers]

didn't William Cheung's books feature Dan Inosanto?

[Lugoman]

There's quite a bit of Chinese influence in the Filipino arts. But doesn't the FMAs predate WC?

I liked that double arm tie up that ends in a throw, I could see that working in chi sau. I hope none of my classmates watched the show. :p

[banditshaw]

Fight and/or spar full contact with it and it will be even different.

It will look more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c&mode=related&search=









.


Cool clip. The Conan reference was amusing as well.

[jesper]

You know what kind of wood they use for their sticks or if its slightly padded. They seemed able to take alot of punishment.

[Black Jack II]

There's quite a bit of Chinese influence in the Filipino arts

No there is not. That is a untrue blanket statement and one that has never been proven. Name which style and how.

There are over 300 styles and substyles, of different fma based archipelago arts. The connection with the Spanish and with the Malay culture is very significant but I doubt any real connection with the chinese whatsoever.

[t_niehoff]

I'm in shock. Will have to watch it several times again (I taped it) in order to give exact details...

BUT...

The Traditional Wing Chun Butterfly Sword form and techniques (ie.- applications against other weapons) that I've learned from William Cheung look almost exactly like some of the escrima, kali, and silat that was demoed on the show. Right down to some very specific details and fan sao (follow up moves). Including also footwork, figure eight slashes and thrusts, etc...Very speciifc stuff. I'm not talking generalities here.

Including even some unarmed techniques vs. unarmed punches coming in at you - including some finishes to such moves that end in armlocks and throws.

I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg (it was mentioned that Chinese martial arts had an influence on FMA - as was arts from other countries)...

BUT I'M JUST IN SHOCK RIGHT NOW ! :eek:


P.S.- Very different than the Butterfly Swords (both form and applications) I learned/saw during my Moy Yat days.

People get caught up in various martial arts (which is better, etc.) when in reality at their core all functional arts contain the same functional elements -- they have to. There are only a limited number of things that work at stand up, at clinch, and on the ground, or with various weapons, at very high levels of intensity. All the various functional martial arts do is take these same elements and put them together slightly differently and/or emphasize different aspects.

That said, there is much in the FMAs, silat, and WCK that is not functional. And that's because of the unrealistic practices of those methods -- which produces unrealistic theory and application.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I liked the frontside head lock takedown they used, using the forearm as a lever between the neck and shoulder. Anyone seen this used like this before that can describe it?

Although it didn't seem as effective against either of the hosts....or maybe the FMA guys were holding back?

I have to say, the MMA fighter host took a lot of punishment with his sticks, but he can man the hell up to take some vicious punishment. I wonder if the broken finger means the big guy'll be taking some fights in the upcoming episodes, as I don't see a show like this having taken a hiatus for rehab purposes.

[Knifefighter]

You know what kind of wood they use for their sticks or if its slightly padded. They seemed able to take alot of punishment.

If you are talking about the Dog Brothers, the sticks are rattan and there is no padding.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You know what kind of wood they use for their sticks or if its slightly padded. They seemed able to take alot of punishment.

that last fight was a metal stick wrapped in foam rubber.

[Lugoman]

No there is not. That is a untrue blanket statement. One that has never been proven. Name which style and how.

There are over 300 styles and substyles, of different fma based archipelago arts. The connection with the Spanish and with the Malay culture is very significant but I doubt any real connection with the chinese whatsoever.

http://www.houstonmartialartsacademy.com/HMAA_Home/Systems/Escrima/escrima.html

I've gotta go with what others are saying if I know no better myself no matter how much I want it to be otherwise.

[AmanuJRY]

I was impressed with the Pekiti Tirsia Kali, I saw a spot on it on a different show.
Amazing training methods.

I would have liked to see the hosts attend a DB pack gathering, although the exhibition match at the end looked impressive.

[Black Jack II]

Sorry man, that link is just that a bland link, it has ZERO emprical data on anything to grant this specific quote any substance whatsoever.


There's quite a bit of Chinese influence in the Filipino arts

The article focus on just one area of the very large culture, the Pampanga area which is again just one area, and in the article it showcases ZERO data on specific link points for any solid research or any follow through for anyone wanting to actually get any proof.

I am not saying there has not been some influence in some of the fma systems out there, I believe Sikiran may be one that if any has some chinese influence in its high line kicking structure, but to go with the line that there is quite a bit of chinese influence in fma is flight of fancy.

[Knifefighter]

The biggest influence on the FMA's were probably the Spaniards.

[Black Jack II]

Spaniards.

Roger that, for most of its systems by far and wide.

[YungChun]

That said, there is much in the FMAs, silat, and WCK that is not functional. And that's because of the unrealistic practices of those methods -- which produces unrealistic theory and application.
Let's say you're right...

1. What "unrealistic practices" are you talking about in each art..?
2. Why would these "unrealistic practices" come to be in ALL these DIFFERENT arts which, not that long ago needed to be functional..?
3. If these arts are not really functional why did they continue to exist before the modern era? <Post WWII>

What about arts like Iai Jutsu where there is a long history of people hacking each other into bits with purportedly great calm and focus? Same really goes for many CMA styles that used a lot of different weapons to do the much the same?

I have my own theories as to some of the 'changes' but I think that the mindset in use when applying these arts can vary greatly--eg fear of death or no fear of death, cultural belief systems that change how one sees combat—technical information that has since been changed or removed, a bill of goods sold like a used car, etc.....

Still, a much different mindset in the east vs the west, emotionally, which can fundamentally change one’s combative mindset and therefore what can work for the person physically IMO... Not everything works the same for each person and when there are fundamental belief systems that are different among groups of people I think you can see a wider range of what can be functional.

Many of the theories in these arts make a lot of sense.. Can folks apply them? I think some can to varying degrees. So to what degree is there distortion and why?

[Liddel]

For a contrasting view read... "Comprehensive Asian fighting arts"
By Donn F Dreager and Robert W Smith.....

They cover the issue of where styles originated from very well....

http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Asian-Fighting-Bushido-Warrior/dp/0870114360/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5915427-7032665?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185668292&sr=8-1

[t_niehoff]

For a contrasting view read... "Comprehensive Asian fighting arts"
By Donn F Dreager and Robert W Smith.....

They cover the issue of where styles originated from very well....

http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Asian-Fighting-Bushido-Warrior/dp/0870114360/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5915427-7032665?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185668292&sr=8-1

NO, they cover the legends and stories very well.

[Knifefighter]

Let's say you're right...

1. What "unrealistic practices" are you talking about in each art..?
2. Why would these "unrealistic practices" come to be in ALL these DIFFERENT arts which, not that long ago needed to be functional..?
3. If these arts are not really functional why did they continue to exist before the modern era? <Post WWII>

Because they quit fighting for real with them. FMA's and Silat are good examples of this. These arts are filled with people who think they are deadly weapons fighters, but only do drills and very light contact sparring and have never done real, full contact in their lives.

[t_niehoff]

Let's say you're right...

1. What "unrealistic practices" are you talking about in each art..?


Forms, unrealistic drills, mysticism, theory, etc.



2. Why would these "unrealistic practices" come to be in ALL these DIFFERENT arts which, not that long ago needed to be functional..?


For several reasons, but you are making a huge assumption -- that these arts were functional to begin with.

First, people didn't understand how the human body worked, how to optimally train, etc. until recently. These people lived in *primative* cultures that permeated their thinking. And they didn't have the technological and educational advances we have today. So they were doing the best they could based on available information. They came up with ways to teach, preserve, train, explain, etc. that were not very good.

Second, because everyone trained poorly, the standard of performance was across the board generally low. We develop fighting skill by fighting, and the quality of opponent and the amount of fighting we do being the two most important factors in our development. These guys weren't fighting that much (they couldn't without the protective gear, etc. we have today) and the people they were fighting with weren't good.

Third, in many of these arts, nonfighters began spreading/teaching -- and this always leads to a quick decline in the art. Unrealistic practice generates crap. So as it was spread from nonfighter to nonfighter, more and more unrealsitic stuff, more crap, became part of their arts.



3. If these arts are not really functional why did they continue to exist before the modern era? <Post WWII>


See #2 above. Look, traditional japanese jiujitsu (TJJ) was all over Japan prior to 1900. Some of the lienages had been around for centuries. Did it work? Sure - against other poorly trained fighters. When Kano took the technical aspects and modified the training method (adopting the sport model) to a modern functional training method, judo blew the TJJ schools away. Where are these schools today in fighting or grappling competitons? They are nowhere to be seen. Becasuse like TMAs, including WCK, their training methods suck. People "trained" in TMAs don't develop the same levels of skill, nor develop as quickly, as those trained with the more functional methods.



What about arts like Iai Jutsu where there is a long history of people hacking each other into bits with purportedly great calm and focus? Same really goes for many CMA styles that used a lot of different weapons to do the much the same?


And if you do a bit of research, you'll find that after the Meiji era, when commoners were permitted to own and train with swords, many did just that. And most couldn't get samurai to train them so they just got swords (shinai) and trained competitively, sparring with each other. And at the first kendo tournament that permitted commoners to compete (just a few years after the prohibition was lifted), the commoners won! They beat the samurai with all their arcane "knowledge", with their katas, with their expereince, etc. Why? Because they trained more effectively (by just sparring competively) and got better (and much more quickly).

You believe the stories, the legends, that these guys were great fighters. When in reality it's like seeing a fight today between a classically trained WCK guy and a classically trained tai ji guy -- two poorly skilled people fighting. Go watch the white crane v. tai ji clip. These were the masters. The stuff of legend. The standard was abysmal. If you lost, what did you do -- go back and do the forms more, more push hands or chi sao, etc. They just didn't know how to train better.



I have my own theories as to some of the 'changes' but I think that the mindset in use when applying these arts can vary greatly--eg fear of death or no fear of death, cultural belief systems that change how one sees combat—technical information that has since been changed or removed, a bill of goods sold like a used car, etc.....

Still, a much different mindset in the east vs the west, emotionally, which can fundamentally change one’s combative mindset and therefore what can work for the person physically IMO... Not everything works the same for each person and when there are fundamental belief systems that are different among groups of people I think you can see a wider range of what can be functional.


If a person has very little in the way of skill, his mindset isn't that important.

Some people are born fighters. Some are not. Either way, it is the training that forges your mindset. If you train as you will fight, you are training the fighter's mindset. If you are not training that way, you are not training that mindset.



Many of the theories in these arts make a lot of sense.. Can folks apply them? I think some can to varying degrees. So to what degree is there distortion and why?

Lots of theories make sense -- to people who aren't fighters and don't have the experience *needed* to truly discern the BS.

[YungChun]

Because they quit fighting for real with them. FMA's and Silat are good examples of this. These arts are filled with people who think they are deadly weapons fighters, but only do drills and very light contact sparring and have never done real, full contact in their lives.
And those in the past who had to fight, to survive, trained much the same way, with the exception that when it came down to it some of them survived and some didn't. The ones who were left alive had the expereince but both the dead and the living started off with the same training... When it comes to deadly weapons experience FOR REAL you only have one level of experience--the survivors..

[YungChun]

First, people didn't understand how the human body worked

Unlike in the west, in the east there was no religious limitations imposed on exploration of the human body. Criminals and undesirables were subjected to all kinds of experiments that were performed, often, while they were alive, to discover exactly how the body works and how to more effectively kill it.

I see some brilliant thinking in the substance and at the core of some of these arts. I do not see what you see and again if you think these arts are primitive and lack an intelligent and knowledgeable basis in their inception then why do you train such a system?

[t_niehoff]

Unlike in the west, in the east there was no religious limitations imposed on exploration of the human body. Criminals and undesirables were subjected to all kinds of experiments that were performed, often, while they were alive, to discover exactly how the body works and how to more effectively kill it.


You can't be serious! This is, I guess, why the West developed the sciences of anatomy, physiology, etc., that the West first learned about what the organs really did (as opposed to storing chi), how the blood circulated, the various systems in the body, the true causes for disease, etc.? While the chinese developed none of this.

You really need to begin doing some serious reading.



I see some brilliant thinking in the substance and at the core of some of these arts. I do not see what you see and again if you think these arts are primitive and lack an intelligent and knowledgeable basis in their inception then why do you train such a system?

Most of that stuff is nonsense. You won't find anyone who can really execute their "brilliant" thinking in fighting decently skilled people because it is bunk.

I practice WCK because it's method suits me. But I try to train like a modern fighter does.

[YungChun]

You can't be serious! This is, I guess, why the West developed the sciences of anatomy, physiology, etc., that the West first learned about what the organs really did (as opposed to storing chi), how the blood circulated, the various systems in the body, the true causes for disease, etc.? While the chinese developed none of this.

You really need to begin doing some serious reading.

Hundreds of years ago Terence, thats way before CSI, btw, the church FORBADE such investigation.. This was not the case in China.. I HAVE read about experiments conducted long before the same was done secretly under penalty of death in the West.. However the experiments done in the East were much more cruel and ruthless.. No they didn't have a periodic table but they did have knives and eyes and subjects who had no rights...

The Chinese starting in the Han dynasty had many other trappings of high culture long before the same was true in the west....

Moreover I know doctors who train who find the movements and forms to demonstrate this knowledge of anatomy very clearly...

[YungChun]

I practice WCK because it's method suits me.

Hmmmm, so the art has a method.. :p:D:cool::eek::rolleyes:

And an 'antiquated' Chinese art at that--created amid the "nonsense" of that uninformed day... Puzzling Isn't it? :confused:

Well at least we know we won't find anyone who can really execute any of that "brilliant" thinking in fighting. LOL

[Knifefighter]

And those in the past who had to fight, to survive, trained much the same way, with the exception that when it came down to it some of them survived and some didn't. The ones who were left alive had the expereince but both the dead and the living started off with the same training... When it comes to deadly weapons experience FOR REAL you only have one level of experience--the survivors..

The veteran fighters who survived figured out what worked and what didn't and passed that knowledge on. The problem was, that once the arts were no longer used in battle, the real stuff began to be watered down with the theoretical stuff, eventually ending up with a mish-mash of workable and unworkable techniques... and nobody knew the difference between the two because they never used it for real anymore.

[Liddel]

NO, they cover the legends and stories very well.


What makes you say that ?

Its not like i hold the book in high regard or anything im just curious what you know of these guys.

DREW

[jesper]

Second, because everyone trained poorly, the standard of performance was across the board generally low. We develop fighting skill by fighting, and the quality of opponent and the amount of fighting we do being the two most important factors in our development. These guys weren't fighting that much

Carefull about your assumptions Terrence, to my knowlegde you havent fought any samurai from the 1800 century, a roman legionair or a mideval knight for that matter.

We may have a better understanding about why the human body works the way it does, but those people sure knew how to kill in a very effective way. And they sure did train alot. A knight spend some 5-6 hours a day homing his skills when not of to war. same with the samurai or the legionair.

I agree that many of the arts are watered down today, but that doesnt mean they didnt know how to use it back then, it just means that in the last 100 years the training has changed and become more civilized as the need to apply it in real life has diminished.
Take Karate (generic). In the old days it didnt contain any kata as there was no need, since you went out and practiced what you preached, ie fought alot.
Then it was forbidden to fight puplicly and more important japan became a more stable country so you didnt have all these wars to fight. Therefor they invented ways of simulating combat and started making forms which did that.
Now look at katas today as it grows more and more distant to actual combat, you start introducing very unrealistic manouvres into it.
Same with many forms from other countries.

If you want a climpse of how they trained in the old days, try take a trip to the phillipenes and visit some of the remote areas where they still hold to old traditions, and actually quite often fight deadly battles with knifes and sticks.
Sure they have flowery names for their technics, and sure they dont have the knowlegde of human anatomy we do, but do you really wanna give them a knife and have a go at them ?.
Im pretty confident I know the answer:)

[Knifefighter]

If you want a climpse of how they trained in the old days, try take a trip to the phillipenes and visit some of the remote areas where they still hold to old traditions, and actually quite often fight deadly battles with knifes and sticks.
Sure they have flowery names for their technics, and sure they dont have the knowlegde of human anatomy we do, but do you really wanna give them a knife and have a go at them ?.
Im pretty confident I know the answer:)

Which "remote area" of the Philipines did you visit where you witnessed deadly battles with sticks or knives?

[Nick Forrer]

The biggest influence on the FMA's were probably the Spaniards.


The illustrisimo system I am learning at the moment definitely has a spanish influence in some of the movements

[Nick Forrer]

BUT...

The Traditional Wing Chun Butterfly Sword form and techniques (ie.- applications against other weapons) that I've learned from William Cheung look almost exactly like some of the escrima, kali, and silat that was demoed on the show. Right down to some very specific details and fan sao (follow up moves). Including also footwork, figure eight slashes and thrusts, etc...Very speciifc stuff. I'm not talking generalities here.



Have you considered the possibility that william cheung based his 'Traditional' knife form on movements that come from FMA? Perhaps the connection is much more recent then you realise.

[jesper]

I didnt vitness it myself knifefighter, but I was once on a course with some phillipe sf soldiers who showed me some moves and we talked alot about where they come from and what their life was like.
Oh and they sure had the scars to prove they had seen stuff. As a knifefighter you know what I mean im sure.

[t_niehoff]

Hmmmm, so the art has a method.. :p:D:cool::eek::rolleyes:


Of course it does - but you still don't get it. Wrestling is a skill and a method of fighting, boxing is a skill and a method of fighting, WCK is a skill and a method of fighting. The method doesn't tell us what to do but delineates (describes) the skills.



And an 'antiquated' Chinese art at that--created amid the "nonsense" of that uninformed day... Puzzling Isn't it? :confused:


First of all, you are assuming that WCK was "created", and there is no evidence of that (other than the obviously made-up origin stories), and I don't think that was the case. I think it much more likely that WCK evolved, in the same way that boxing and wrestling evolved, from the experiences of various fighters over time and was gradually organized into what it is today.

Second, from my perspective, many of the chinese martial arts, including WCK, have focused on an area of fighting, that might be described as maintained-contact infighting with attached striking (dirty clinch boxing), and have some sound strategic, tactical, and technical elements. In much the same way, traditional japanese jiujitsu had many of the strategic, tactical, and technical elements for jacket wrestling, in stand-up and on the ground. The silimarity is that when you ahve poor training methods, and particularly when you do mainly unrealistic training, these elements get "lost" amid the nonsense infused into the arts by both the unrealistic practices themselves and by the nonfighters who "add" to the confusion.



Well at least we know we won't find anyone who can really execute any of that "brilliant" thinking in fighting. LOL

One huge problem with the theoretical nonfighters is that they beleive they *know* -- they know how WCK should work, they know the applications, they know what the forms mean, they know because they have the concepts, they know, they know, they know. In reality, they know nothing. It is all theory, all belief. Because if they can't do it in fighting and against decently skilled people, they don't have a clue. Knowledge and understanding beyond a superficial level comes only from skill. And skill only comes from doing it (in fighting). But they are buttressed in their beliefs by unrealistic practices (look, ma, I can do it in chi sao), by the traditional mindset (my master really knows! and I have the real theory/concepts) and by the brainwashing of group-think.

But, of course, my views are easily refuted. Just show me someone who can do what they say they can do, the way they say to do it, actually do it in fighting someone with decent skills. In other words, someone who can do what they are training to do. After all, that's the standard.

[YungChun]

The method doesn't tell us what to do but delineates (describes) the skills.

The "method" is a training methodology <or yes even an idea--as in little idea--or program and contains techniques and mental paradigms used for both training and adaptation of techniques and tactics in application.


First of all, you are assuming that WCK was "created", and there is no evidence of that. (other than the obviously made-up origin stories), and I don't think that was the case.

See, you believe that, everyone is thinking in terms of what you used to think.. That is not always the case. Instead of telling everyone what they think--do you do that in person too? No wonder you train so hard… But you should be asking people what they think instead of telling them....

"Created" can simply mean a refinement of a method by one or more people who were responsible for said refinement. They broke off in a different, or simpler direction. Having done so they are thought to have "created" their version of the older method.


Second, from my perspective, many of the chinese martial arts, including WCK, have focused on an area of fighting, that might be described as maintained-contact infighting with attached striking (dirty clinch boxing), and have some sound strategic, tactical, and technical elements. In much the same way, traditional japanese jiujitsu had many of the strategic, tactical, and technical elements for jacket wrestling, in stand-up and on the ground. The silimarity is that when you ahve poor training methods, and particularly when you do mainly unrealistic training, these elements get "lost" amid the nonsense infused into the arts by both the unrealistic practices themselves and by the nonfighters who "add" to the confusion.

Still according to you most of the content suks, and came from sources that were ignorant and uninformed.. There are dozens of styles that specialize in inside clinch fighting and all the TMA that do came from similar 'uninformed' sources so I really don't see why you wouldn't just do a proven method like MT and BJJ and leave the 'CMA' BS out of the mix... Is there something mystical or special about WCK that you think isn’t already in a proven style like MT?


One huge problem with the theoretical nonfighters is that they beleive they *know* -- they know how WCK should work, they know the applications, they know what the forms mean, they know because they have the concepts, they know, they know, they know. In reality, they know nothing. It is all theory, all belief. Because if they can't do it in fighting and against decently skilled people, they don't have a clue.

Yes, we know, keep it real--got that...

Here's an idea: Why not just put the above in your sig and then write in SEE SIG at the end of your posts.. It would save you <and us> a lot of valuable time that's wasted reading/writing/responding to the same thing over and over again.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Like I said, Nick, I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg. And yes to another previous poster: Dan Inosanto was in William Cheung's Butterfly Sword book wherein the photos showing TWC vs. other weaponry were demoed - with Dan being the opponent.

Anything is possible about where TWC weapon work comes from. I really don't know what to say at this point. But I can tell you this much: put two sticks into the hands of a TWC guy and he'll look remarkably like some of the FMA guys in the documentary.

That's how much the moves (both form and application) seemed to look alike. Including some empty handed stuff both against a weapon attack and against empty hand punches coming in.

I've got to watch the Human Weapon 2 vid again - and very attentively.

[Nick Forrer]

Like I said, Nick, I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg. And yes to another previous poster: Dan Inosanto was in William Cheung's Butterfly Sword book wherein the photos showing TWC vs. other weaponry were demoed - with Dan being the opponent.


Victor,

That link with Guro Dan is your zapruda film right there. If the motions look like FMA (and unlike any other WCK lineage knife form) they probably are FMA. Which to be clear is no comment on their martial validity - I am a big fan of FMA and am learning the Illustrisimo system at the moment.

I look forward to this episode - I watched the muay thai one from a torrent today.

[Nick Forrer]

Video of the 'old man' tatang illustrisimo

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ

[Matrix]

I look forward to this episode - I watched the muay thai one from a torrent today.Hey Nick,

Thanks for reminding me about torrents. I just noticed the FMA episode is also available. :cool:

Cheers,
Bill

[Ultimatewingchun]

I happen to know for a fact that William Cheung had demoed the BUTTERFLY SWORD FORM (and possibly some applications as well) to at least one American (Blaine Collins) before he ever met Dan Inosanto - which was back around 1982-83.

Blaine met him in 1979 in Australia.

So don't look for a Zagruda film just yet - as far as Dan goes. But where TWC swords come from is still an open question in my mind.

Btw...in the book KUNG FU BUTTERFLY SWORDS that William wrote Dan appears within the last chapter throwing moves at William with one broadsword..and then with two broadswords, with a staff, and with two Butterfly swords - while William works with two Butterfly Swords in all the sequences.

[Nick Forrer]

Just watched it. Cool episode. Nice fight at the end. Usual suspects featured - doce pares plus pekiti tersia. Hope they will do a BJJ one.

[Sihing73]

No there is not. That is a untrue blanket statement and one that has never been proven. Name which style and how.

There are over 300 styles and substyles, of different fma based archipelago arts. The connection with the Spanish and with the Malay culture is very significant but I doubt any real connection with the chinese whatsoever.

Hello,

Hmm how about Kuntao? The very name gives credit to the Chinese influence. Of course one could argue that the Islamic influence is far greater overall for the FMA. Unless you are going to be a stickler and try to seperate the FMA from other Indonesian arts, you have to recognize some type of influence due to trade and immigration.

As to the Spanish being the source of much of the FMA my only question then would be why they got defeated and run out?????

[Knifefighter]

Just watched it last night... 1/3 good stuff; 2/3 B.S.

[Black Jack II]

I have not seen it yet, waiting to get to it tonight.


Hmm how about Kuntao?

Kuntao is a whole other animal.


Of course one could argue that the Islamic influence is far greater overall for the FMA.

For the moro-moro arts yes, its a muslim based culture, the fma world has been influenced by many different factors, spanish, portuguese, japenese, malay, islamic traders, maybe chinese depending on location, its main ideal is to take what is pragmatic.


As to the Spanish being the source of much of the FMA my only question then would be why they got defeated and run out?????

What are you talking about...?

The Spanish conquered much of the Philippines islands with its military and to a specifc area in its culture. Spanish sailors were excellent swordsmen, using a cut and hack style of swordplay at that time, I am not talking about the rapier here but lower class weapons of the working shipboard solider.

Count in halberds, spears, polearms which are made of real steel, as well as cannons and modern tactics one can see that fire hardened rattan, seashell blades, stingray whips and bamboo spears are not really that of a matchup.

[Knifefighter]

As to the Spanish being the source of much of the FMA my only question then would be why they got defeated and run out?????

The Spanish ruled the Phillipines for something like 450 years. Hang around someplace for that long and a lot of stuff will rub off.

[Sihing73]

Kuntao is a whole other animal.

How so? Are you saying that Kuntao or Kuntaw is not or can not be considered to be a FMA?

[Black Jack II]

Kuntao is not a specific system as it is a generic term just like Ch'uan Fa. It is a Hokkien term and means fist way or something of that nature.

Just as there are many styles of arnis, many styles of silat, many styles of kungfu, there are also a multiple of different kuntao systems. Some strictly chinese based, some enriched with different local fighting flavours and the enviroments there teachers carried them to in a ex-pat sort of fashion, an example would be the silat systems picked up by the chinese kuntao players who ended up living or traveling to those regions.

Same goes for tat kuntao or kuntaw, take one culture and blend it with another's fighting system, flavour, and heritage to get a whole other animal.

IMHO it would not be considered straight fma.

There is a poster here name Mas Judt who knows all about kuntao and the dutch indo material, he would be a much better person to talk to about this.

Peace.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just watched it last night... 1/3 good stuff; 2/3 B.S.

I'd be curious to know the ratios you'd throw out for the first episode. My judgment? Heavily skewed for the latter.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Those guys need a BS detector. They go out to search for masters, but end up getting some kooks in there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My take on the first episode (Muay Thai):

90% good stuff.

[TenTigers]

Phillipinos were very adept at assimilating anything and everything into their fighting. There is a large Chinese population in the Phillipines, so it stands to reason that CMA would have influenced FMA. Whether it is recent or not is not the issue.

[Shaolin Wookie]

My take on the first episode (Muay Thai):

90% good stuff.

Come on, dude.


Fairtex? Friggin' sweet.
The military acadmy? Crap. Brick breaking? No big deal. The big white dude broke the same bricks on his first attempt, and he'd never done it before. Doesn't say much for their brick breaking, right? A skill attained in minutes, or seconds, as it were.
Monkey master? Crap. I saw that Hanuman tech. in a Tony Jaa movie, and that's probably the only reason they wanted it on the show.
The Muay Thai wushu temple (didn't even know they had 'em)? Crap, but better.....their krabi krabong weapons work saved them.
The backwater MT camp? Sweet. But the fighters looked weak compared to Fairtex.
The Burmese Chaiya camp? Friggin' sweet, but with an undercurrent of mythological crap that seems to infest CMA. Still, they had excellent drills, and almost all of it involved two-man work.

The show producers seem more interested in looking for what is cool (the MMA guy who fought in the first two shows certainly seems to try and pick up what looks cool, rather than what's effective, and leads to him dancing around and taking unnecessary shots [not that I could do better, though]). I laughed pretty heartily when the old guy in the Kali/Escrima episode told him to quit dancing.

[Knifefighter]

Come on, dude.


Fairtex? Friggin' sweet.
The military acadmy? Crap. Brick breaking? No big deal. The big white dude broke the same bricks on his first attempt, and he'd never done it before. Doesn't say much for their brick breaking, right? A skill attained in minutes, or seconds, as it were.
Monkey master? Crap. I saw that Hanuman tech. in a Tony Jaa movie, and that's probably the only reason they wanted it on the show.
The Muay Thai wushu temple (didn't even know they had 'em)? Crap, but better.....their krabi krabong weapons work saved them.
The backwater MT camp? Sweet. But the fighters looked weak compared to Fairtex.
The Burmese Chaiya camp? Friggin' sweet, but with an undercurrent of mythological crap that seems to infest CMA. Still, they had excellent drills, and almost all of it involved two-man work.


Just goes to prove there is B.S. in every style.

[Lugoman]

To Black Jack II


There's quite a bit of Chinese influence in the Filipino arts


Sorry man, that link is just that a bland link, it has ZERO emprical data on anything to grant this specific quote any substance whatsoever.

Gotcha, and I do apologize, I misspoke in saying there was "quite a bit" should have said there was some... so I concede that you won this bout.

Not by a KO though. :)

[Black Jack II]

Not by a KO though.:)

Not at all....lets just say a sprained ankle caused the bout to stop.;)

[UrBaN]

@Ultimatewingchun

The arts you mentioned are the same family arts. Especially in empty hands.

WC does not have knife training, but it's empty hands are the exact same with fma, silat (at least the most known ones), Jun fan etc. Same hand movements, same kicks, same strategy.

In actual training they are a few differences but in combat, one can hardly tell the difference between them and that's the whole point of a martial art.

Training methods are what's important, not the art. If I am doing wc and I use focus mitts, do I besmirch my wc with boxing? Or am I just using another training method?

But most people, trying to feed their ego, project their training (a.k.a. their choice) as the best. And it is in our nature to compare and to be antagonistic.

On the other hand, taijutsu, jjj, bjj, hapkido, ninjutsu etc. (other family arts) have minor differences in actual combat. But they can still exchange training methods.

In our days with the use of technology, we have a bigger advantage than our ancestors, because we can actually see how others perceive combat. See what they are doing and demystify arts and people. Now fiction tales of old times are hard to re-generate.

Anyone having experience in those arts mentioned, is not biased, doesn't have financial benefits, and been true to himself, can see the similarities.

Just my personal opinion.

[k gledhill]

wc no knife training ? can you clarify that for me Urban

[kung fu fighter]

Come on, dude.


Fairtex? Friggin' sweet.
The military acadmy? Crap. Brick breaking? No big deal. The big white dude broke the same bricks on his first attempt, and he'd never done it before. Doesn't say much for their brick breaking, right? A skill attained in minutes, or seconds, as it were.
Monkey master? Crap. I saw that Hanuman tech. in a Tony Jaa movie, and that's probably the only reason they wanted it on the show.
The Muay Thai wushu temple (didn't even know they had 'em)? Crap, but better.....their krabi krabong weapons work saved them.
The backwater MT camp? Sweet. But the fighters looked weak compared to Fairtex.
The Burmese Chaiya camp? Friggin' sweet, but with an undercurrent of mythological crap that seems to infest CMA. Still, they had excellent drills, and almost all of it involved two-man work.

The show producers seem more interested in looking for what is cool (the MMA guy who fought in the first two shows certainly seems to try and pick up what looks cool, rather than what's effective, and leads to him dancing around and taking unnecessary shots [not that I could do better, though]). I laughed pretty heartily when the old guy in the Kali/Escrima episode told him to quit dancing.


The lost style of muai thai on this show was identical to wing chun in theory. especially the idea of not retreating but countering by moving into close range elbows.
What do you guys think?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some similarities in theory, yes...but IDENTICAL !! ??

Definitely not.

[russellsherry]

hi all re escrima, and wing chun, firstly hi sifu victor you spoke of blaine meeting guro dan 82 83 i think, guess what i was at the first semminar grandmaster cheung hosted when he brought goru dan out , this was the first time , i met nino pillo dans student as well i fought in the tourment that master, cheung held and did ok. master cheung and guro did a wing chun vs stricks demo which was great also goru larry hastwell i spelled the name wrong i think and dan did double phillipino swords , now a side story to this , i was traning with the sticks when a tall guy walked through the door and looked supprised he was training under david cheung and came up for a minute about ten minutes john chow drops the name roland dantes morden arnis 12 years later that tall guy became my sifu david foggie roland dantaes his teacher in arnis which dave hold 5 th dan guro roland is my arnis teaher and close friend as
well, also hi nick forrier guro david is a student of chris ricketts guro one of the most famous masterso of babakan in the worl;d as well as the most respected
peace russell sherry

[UrBaN]

@k gledhill

I'm not talking about the Butterfly swords obviously. WC has a few techniques against the knife but that's it.

[UrBaN]

@ victor

Identical can't be anything, but for the 80% of the clips you show me of fma, jkd and silat empty hands practical moves (and not fancy stuff that every style has in it's cirriculum) I'll try to translate the moves in wc terms (W.Cheung's lineage which I think you follow) and see if you agree. What do you say?

Please don't take this the wrong way, I don't have anything with you or the styles mentioned. I just believe that things are simpler than they look sometimes.

I know what I say sounds paradox, but that's what I believe. I also believe that Yip Man lineages are the same when it comes to combat. I could give you examples but that will take the thread in another point which I don't want to.

Let's say, I hate politics and I believe that sometimes lineages exist only to feed someone's ego to prove that what they do is the purest/better/oldest/more practical/modern/only_truth etc.

[UrBaN]

@ kung fu fighter

Of course. I believe that wc's theory and strategy especially, was made only for combat. It was a well-thought system. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a purist, I believe in cross-training and that's what I do.

And when you take out the sport aspect of any art, and try to translate it to street fighting, the strategy and theory will have the same requirements.

[k gledhill]

@k gledhill

I'm not talking about the Butterfly swords obviously. WC has a few techniques against the knife but that's it.


:D thanks now I see clearly .

[Ultimatewingchun]

Urban:

I was referring to kung fu fighter's assertions about Muay Thai when I said that similarities to wing chun are not identical.

[UrBaN]

Ah, ok then :)

[Mas Judt]

I'm going back a bit:

There is KunTao, KunTaw and KunTao Silat in the Phillipines - none of it really related to the Dutch-Indo stuff. Some similarities, a lot of differences, one of the ystems looks like Karate - so it adopted a JMA style with a Chinese name - just like in the US, the Chinese style names are popular.

Chinese influence - sure, especially over the last 50 years. But not so much in the core FMA.

Knifefighter is correct on what creates BS over time, but has left out some important factors: If you play combat sports - the rules will create BS over time, and free fighting is essential as what you need to train changes based on who you find yourself fighting.

[SAAMAG]

People get caught up in various martial arts (which is better, etc.) when in reality at their core all functional arts contain the same functional elements -- they have to. There are only a limited number of things that work at stand up, at clinch, and on the ground, or with various weapons, at very high levels of intensity. All the various functional martial arts do is take these same elements and put them together slightly differently and/or emphasize different aspects.

That said, there is much in the FMAs, silat, and WCK that is not functional. And that's because of the unrealistic practices of those methods -- which produces unrealistic theory and application.

This quote is the holy grail of this thread.

[AmanuJRY]

It's like the law of diminishing returns is to economics.

The more skilled you become and the more skilled an opponenet becomes, reduces the amount of technique that will be 'effective' (or 'useful' for a better term).

That's why in high level MMA competition we don't see a lot of unusual attacks or submissions. Of course, on occasion we'll see somthing rare, and it works because it caught the opponent off guard.

[YungChun]

It's like the law of diminishing returns is to economics.

The more skilled you become and the more skilled an opponenet becomes, reduces the amount of technique that will be 'effective' (or 'useful' for a better term).

That's why in high level MMA competition we don't see a lot of unusual attacks or submissions. Of course, on occasion we'll see somthing rare, and it works because it caught the opponent off guard.
Don't really agree that there is "less" that is effective, it's just that everything is *less effective*. In this case when both are more skilled you see more deadlocking.. In these cases when facing a good opponent going *outside the box* IMO is the order of the day... So, the figher with the greater *range of experience* can make this his advantage...

The old chinese fighers used to always say...Never just train one art... You have to diversify...

[Phil Redmond]

I won't use the word rip off but I saw this in Canada a few years ago on the Canadian History Channel. The show was called "Deadly Weapons". An Aikido Black Belt from Montreal named Josette D. Normandeau even visited the same old Cane Master that was vistited in the American version:
Check these links.

http://www.filmoption.com/international_sector/showdetails.asp?id=305

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=121

[southernkf]

I won't use the word rip off but I saw this in Canada a few years ago on the Canadian History Channel. The show was called "Deadly Weapons". An Aikido Black Belt from Montreal named Josette D. Normandeau even visited the same old Cane Master that was vistited in the American version:
Check these links.

http://www.filmoption.com/international_sector/showdetails.asp?id=305

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=121

Hello Phil,

I have watched both series and they indeed seem to be following the same format Josette's show did. So far the same arts are profiled as well as much of the content. I wonder if it is a rip off, which I doubt, or if the same people are responsible for brining it to the US. I saw the other on Fine Living Tv.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I won't use the word rip off but I saw this in Canada a few years ago on the Canadian History Channel. The show was called "Deadly Weapons". An Aikido Black Belt from Montreal named Josette D. Normandeau even visited the same old Cane Master that was vistited in the American version:
Check these links.

http://www.filmoption.com/international_sector/showdetails.asp?id=305

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=121

True, but she sucked :D ( not that these guys are THAT much better).
Seriously though, the Deadly Arts series was kind of cool, it exposed people to some systems never seen before like the Indian one and showed things like "combat" capoeira.
The karate part with Taira sensei was worth that whole episode.

Don't recall which kung fu was shown....

[t_niehoff]

It's like the law of diminishing returns is to economics.

The more skilled you become and the more skilled an opponenet becomes, reduces the amount of technique that will be 'effective' (or 'useful' for a better term).

That's why in high level MMA competition we don't see a lot of unusual attacks or submissions. Of course, on occasion we'll see somthing rare, and it works because it caught the opponent off guard.

Yes, exactly, and this is true for any competitive"game" - sport, atheltic activity, fighting, etc. "Junk" can compete with "junk" but it crumbles under the pressure of really good (functional) stuff. The rub is that we can't know from theory what is "junk" and what is good (functional) stuff: that can only be determined from experience (actual results). For example, the triangle choke is something that works at the very highest levels, and is a high percentage submission. There isn't any theory that tells us that; results tell us that.

[Phil Redmond]

I just found the videos of the History.ca show Deadly Weapons.
http://www.history.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=72529
I thought I'd lost them. The segment on Kalaripayattu was amazing. They say that Damo was from the Kerala area where Kalaripayattu was developed and that he taught it when he went to China.
PR

[Vajramusti]

Phil- The Bodhidharma's origins are from Kanchi puram in Tamil nadu- near enough to Kerala in broadstroke geography...he lived during the Pallava dynasty..converted to Chan.. and is one of the Chan patriarchs. Standard things in monk training then and now- is preliminary yogic exercises and breathing before meditation. As being from a princely family he is likely to have
had martial instruction.. but I doubt that he founded any Chinese martial system. However, the breathing control that he taught-played an important role in later martial training.
Kalaripayyatu is one of many Indian systems. Many have withered in the colonial era but kalaripayattu has survived. Bodhidharma did not create the kalari tradition.
I did a(Phillip Zarilli) book review essay on kalaripayattu for the Journal of Asian martial Arts some years ago.

"Red Pine" a very good translator (knows Chinese-old and new and sanskrit) did a good book
translating the sermons of Bodhidharma that have survived. For skeptics who question the existence of Bodhidharma,- his sermons translated from the written Chinese-years later- is full of Indian symbolism and flavor.He is a major source of Chan(Dhyan/Zen-same root words) and is rooted in early Indian Mahayana. The latter invoves universalist conceptions and is not the property of any single person or nation.

Thanks for the memory jogging reference.I couldnt find the video.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

The History Channel in the U.S. has different programming from the History Channel in Canada. I have tapes of all 6 of the Canadian "Deadly Weapon" shows and converted them to DVD. If you email me a mailing address I can send you the Kalaripayattu episode.
Phil

[Nick Forrer]

Just watched the Karate, Savate and Judo episodes

The Savate epsiode was really good although Bill Duff is becoming more and more annoying - a clumsy unskilled oaf with an inflated opinion of himself and his abilities.

The Judo episode was great too.

Karate episode was not as good - the scene where the master broke the board with his hand and then pretended it was his fingers and got them to try it with their fingers was amusing tho.

Curious what the Kung Fu episode will be like.

[YungChun]

Karate episode was not as good - the scene where the master broke the board with his hand and then pretended it was his fingers and got them to try it with their fingers was amusing tho.
I am not an advocate of this type of training nor of Uechi Ryu, nor do I think this is what those systems were supposed to be spending all that training time doing..

HOWEVER....

You are absolutely dead wrong.. Master Shinjo spent the last 30 years or so working on those *deformed fingers* <how do you think they got that way?> of his just so he can break those boards with what is called in that system a Nukite... I know people who have seen him do this in person.. He can IN FACT do this..and he can also do it with his big toe--believe it or not..

Combat worthy...? I have no opinion on the matter...REAL? very much so..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just watched the Karate, Savate and Judo episodes

The Savate epsiode was really good although Bill Duff is becoming more and more annoying - a clumsy unskilled oaf with an inflated opinion of himself and his abilities.

The Judo episode was great too.

Karate episode was not as good - the scene where the master broke the board with his hand and then pretended it was his fingers and got them to try it with their fingers was amusing tho.

Curious what the Kung Fu episode will be like.

What ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_vhuhqIROw&mode=related&search=

[Nick Forrer]

Okay well perhaps im wrong - would have to see this in person - its hard to tell from the video. Maybe im being overly cynical - My BS ometer is always switched on when I see demos like this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay well perhaps im wrong - would have to see this in person - its hard to tell from the video. Maybe im being overly cynical - My BS ometer is always switched on when I see demos like this.

Uechi guys are a different breed when it comes to conditioning and this guy has always been a freak, you should search on Youtube about him and Uechi, freaky stuff.

[YungChun]

Okay well perhaps im wrong - would have to see this in person - its hard to tell from the video. Maybe im being overly cynical - My BS ometer is always switched on when I see demos like this.
I thought you may have been thinking of when he used the Bushiken or thumb strike which uses the first knuckle of the thumb as the impact point.. This does kind of look like he is using his palm, but again he is actually using the knuckle of the thumb..

IMO the Japanese went completely over-board with the whole idea of "conditioning" the body like this... And IMO it offers remarkably low returns on training investment in terms of time and pain... This is what they use to impress the crowds and put money in the bank.. All or most TMA seem to go overboard in certain elements within the art, often to WOW the crowds, demos, fake chi sao for us... this is how *they* do it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought you may have been thinking of when he used the Bushiken or thumb strike which uses the first knuckle of the thumb as the impact point.. This does kind of look like he is using his palm, but again he is actually using the knuckle of the thumb..

IMO the Japanese went completely over-board with the whole idea of "conditioning" the body like this... And IMO it offers remarkably low returns on training investment in terms of time and pain... This is what they use to impress the crowds and put money in the bank.. All or most TMA seem to go overboard in certain elements within the art, often to WOW the crowds, demos, fake chi sao for us... this is how *they* do it...

He is okinawan and they are much more hard core than the Japanese in terms of conditoning.
As for "low returns in terms of time and pain", to each their own, context is everything.

[YungChun]

He is okinawan and they are much more hard core than the Japanese in terms of conditoning.
As for "low returns in terms of time and pain", to each their own, context is everything.
Honestly... I used to do this style...

IMO it is completely *not cool* and somewhat moronic to teach, show, tell people of all ages etc and/or lead by example that mangling their hands and feet, NUKITE, TOE KICK, is what they need to do/train to develop good self defense or fighting skills.. It is just totally way the f$&#37;# out there IMO and most good and high ranking teachers in that system agree IME...

The standard conditioning is okay for the most part.. Legs and body...

I could go on forever with my issues in Uechi but I would prefer not to. There are some modern folks going outside the box with their Uechi and those are the good ones IMO.. Actually Joe Lauzon from TUF, his teacher is a Uechi guy <and Marine> , but one that ended up specializing in BJJ...

[Vajramusti]

I thought the judo segment was by far the best.
The last Judo champ with 3 ippons against one of the co hosts had good skills
and adjusted to whatever was there.
Given the diversity of kung fu styles, versions, lineages-judgment on what is quality on the part of the producers could be problematic.And, it will be difficult for the animated figures to show micromotions in the better styles..

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Honestly... I used to do this style...

IMO it is completely *not cool* and somewhat moronic to teach, show, tell people of all ages etc and/or lead by example that mangling their hands and feet, NUKITE, TOE KICK, is what they need to do/train to develop good self defense or fighting skills.. It is just totally way the f$%# out there IMO and most good and high ranking teachers in that system agree IME...

The standard conditioning is okay for the most part.. Legs and body...

I could go on forever with my issues in Uechi but I would prefer not to. There are some modern folks going outside the box with their Uechi and those are the good ones IMO.. Actually Joe Lauzon from TUF, his teacher is a Uechi guy <and Marine> , but one that ended up specializing in BJJ...

Yes, I know Joe and of his teacher, again context.
This type of conditioning is NOT for everyone and this individual seems to be fine with it, look at Higaonna as another example.
I know a guitar player (classical) that does the same type and his hands are just fine and while noticable, not "deformed".
Its just not fro everyone.

[YungChun]

And then there's the 'testing' let me stop...

Definitely not for everyone... :rolleyes: I'd love to let Terence loose on that group for a week or two... LOL

[sihing]

I was reaffirmed twice in watching the most recent episode on Krav Maga, the first when they said that self defense and sport fighting are two different things entirely, second is that you have to put yourself into the non comfort zone in whatever of the two that you wish to participate in to really be effective. Being effective in one of them doesn't necessarily transfer over to the other. Different curcumstances, different rules, different environment, different intentions, and one is life and death, the other isn't.

James