The three main styles of Hung Gar

[The Xia]

http://www.bltsupplies.com/interview/yee/int4yee.html
In this interview, sifu Frank Yee of the Tang Fong lineage states, "First, I would like to say that there are three main styles of Hung Ga. The first is called Shaolin Temple Hung Ga. Some famous practitioners of this style were: Tit Kiu Sam, Ngam Yiu Ding, Ngam Dim Hung. The second style was called Hung Men. The revolutionaries who fought against the Ching government practiced this style. The third founded by Hung Hei Gune during the 1700’s and systematized by Wong Fei Hung. This is the style most commonly seen today.”
I find this to be very interesting. Most times when I encounter talk about Hung Gar outside of Wong Fei Hung lineage, it’s blanketed over with the general term, “Village Hung Gar.” This quote sheds some light but also raises questions. What are the differences between Shaolin Temple Hung Gar, Hung Men Hung Gar, and the Hung Gar that Wong Fei Hung learned from his father before he combined all that he learned? What are each of these styles of Hung Gar like? And since these are described as the three main styles of Hung Gar, I'm thinking that means there are others. What are some of those? I wonder where Ha Say Fu fits into all this.

Some of Wong Fei Hung’s forming of his Hung Gar is described below.
“A little known fact is that present day Hung Ga has relationships with all three methods. Wong Fei Hung was a member of the Hung Men association, thus having learned their Kung Fu. He also learned the Tiet Sing Kuen, Iron Wire form from Tit Kiu Sam of the Shaolin Temple Hung Ga lineage. He then combined the knowledge of Tiger Crane Techniques obtained from Luk Ah Choy and his father, thus creating the version seen today."

[LaterthanNever]

The Xia,

This is an excellent post/question. When you state: "A little known fact is that present day Hung Ga has relationships with all three methods. Wong Fei Hung was a member of the Hung Men association, thus having learned their Kung Fu."


Of course this logically brings up the question...if WFH is known for his own lineage as it were (LSW lineage) and he was also a member of the Hung Men..and if HM was indeed a separate style of HG..is it possible that both LSW lineage and Hung Men were part of the same style and at some point a pivotal moment came where there was a split?

Intruiging to say the least. What would be especially interesting would be if someone could post a list of forms for both "Shaolin temple Hung Ga" as well as "Hung Men" Hung Ga..

That would be something to see.

[Laukarbo]

I dont believe that in shaolin was a style called hung gar...hung gar derived out of shaolin tiger style..and then went in different directions.actually with every new generation the style went different ways...And thats why there are different interpretations of hung kuen..some added something some got rid of something some changed something etc.

[doug maverick]

hung gar doesn't evolve from just the tiger style. its a blend of both hard and soft, it incorperates all the five animals as well as the five elements. shaolin hung ga is most likely spread from gee shims other students.

[Sicilian Tofu M]

This is a good article on hung gar/ha say fu
http://www.hungkuen.net/article-tangledroots.htm

[David Jamieson]

While tiger style of shaolin is definitely a primary flavour in Hung, it is worthy of Note that Hong chuan (red fist) is an old shaolin style and is expressed in both the modern large and small red fist sets as well as being connected with the Tai tzu Chang Chuan

when these shaolin ways are interspersed with the five animals styles, you can say that there is indeed a shaolin temple hung family.

Many Hung Kuen families do not attribute their arts to Wong fei-hung and Instead make the connection as Shaolin Hung, Shaolin Tiger, Shaolin Tiger/Crane, Sil Lum Hung Kuen instead of WFH Hung Gar and so on.

The families with direct lineage to Wong Fei Hung always make that connection because that's how it is with those families. Many others merely make the connection with the temple itself or the tiger/crane styling from five animals or simply the tiger styling.

I agree with Yee's assessment of things in that respect.

[TenTigers]

although Hung-Ga is five animals, it places greatest emphasis on The Tiger.
Hung Mun was a patriotic organization, with "cells" throughout Southern China. I am sure there were many variations being taught. Nowadays, in Hung Mun, many different styles are taught-some teach Southern Mantis, Some CLF, some Hung-Ga. All however, seem to teach styles based on "Fan Ching,Fuk Ming."

[Pork Chop]

While tiger style of shaolin is definitely a primary flavour in Hung, it is worthy of Note that Hong chuan (red fist) is an old shaolin style and is expressed in both the modern large and small red fist sets as well as being connected with the Tai tzu Chang Chuan


This is where it gets really confusing, pretty sure the northern style's name is "Red fist", but the hanzi they use for the form names on martialartsmart is different, it's actually "flood" like southern hung gar.
Says so right on the cover:
http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs002.html

[Fu-Pow]

I thought the crane in Tiger/Crane came from Lama/Hop Gar?

FP

[banditshaw]

All however, seem to teach styles based on "Fan Ching,Fuk Ming."


Yeah that sounds about right....:cool:

[GeneChing]

It was originally published in the January 1999 issue of IKF under the title Original Hung Gar: The Tangled Roots of a Powerful Kung Fu and republished (although with no additional compensation to me) in the Ultimate Martial Arts Encyclopedia. It's one of my most often quoted articles beyond Iron *****: Not for Men Only! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=315)

OK, end of rant.

As for Hung Men, there is another style that bears the Hung Men moniker but seems to have little relation to Hung Gar in terms of technique. It's popular in Taiwan and Sichuan (regions where the ROC fled during the PRC takeover). We did two-part article series about the background of Hung Men in Taiwan in our 2003 May/June (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=318) & Jul/Aug issues - Behind The Big Door Part I: Secrets of Taiwan’s Hung Men Conspiracy & Behind the Big Door Part II: Taiwan Secret of Hung Men Salutes, Tribunal Halls and the Rituals of Exotic Lion Dance.

[TenTigers]

Fu-Pow sez."I thought the crane in Tiger/Crane came from Lama/Hop Gar? "

True. While the long arm techniques and element punches are credited to WFH's interraction with Wong Yun-Lum, the short-hand crane techniques are more typically Southern as seen in Fukien White Crane.

[Sicilian Tofu M]

Hey Gene, I think its a site error if you back out to the "Insight" page your name is on the article.

[The Xia]

Yeah, I think TenTigers hit the nail on the head when he described the Hung Men and Kung Fu. Practitioners of many styles can be found in their ranks throughout history. However, the interview states that there is a Hung Gar specific to the Hung Mun. However, this does not mean that Hung Gar masters of other lineages are not found in the organization. For one example, the interview states that Wong Fei Hung was. And doesn't the "Hung" in Hung Hei Goon, Hung Mun, and Hung Kuen, all derive from the Ming Emperor of that name as well as red, the color of the red junks?

[The Xia]

As for Hung Men, there is another style that bears the Hung Men moniker but seems to have little relation to Hung Gar in terms of technique. It's popular in Taiwan and Sichuan (regions where the ROC fled during the PRC takeover).
Links and/or videos?

[PM]

hello,

in China nobody uses "village Hung Kyun", it is just another western (and incorrect) term (= redneck Hung Kyun?!). the right term is lou Hung Kyun, old Hung Kyun.

Wong Feihung's/Lam Saiwing's system is called in China Fu Hok Hung Kyun, "Tiger and Crane Hung Kyun", to distinguish it from other non-Wong Fei Hung Hung Kyun systems - saam jin Hung Kyun (Three Stretches Hung kyun), ng ying Hung Kyun (five animals Hung Kyun) etc. never heard of ha sei fu Hung Kyun in the areas i have been to (Fatsaan, Gwongjau... )

[mok]

The shaolin Hong Quan sets - "Da Hong Quan", "Xiao Hong Quan" are not related AFAIK, and definately use the character for "red" in their names, instead of a surname.

However there is another northern Hong Quan style(s) which uses the same surname (ie meaning "flood") in the name, but also has nothing to do with WFH/ Gee Sin Hung Gar... If remember correctly it is a much older system (believed to be many hundreds, if not 1000 yrs old) related to Tai-Zu. It may or may not be related to the shaolin red-fist sets, but I doubt it, as those as much more recent.

Then there's allegedly some southern "red-boat" styles, and again Yuen Kik-Kai's "five-patern" Hung Kuen, which IMO is also completely unrelated to WFH Hung Ga (asides from being another revolutionary style practised in the same period).

[banditshaw]

The shaolin Hong Quan sets - "Da Hong Quan", "Xiao Hong Quan" are not related AFAIK, and definately use the character for "red" in their names, instead of a surname.

However there is another northern Hong Quan style(s) which uses the same surname (ie meaning "flood") in the name, but also has nothing to do with WFH/ Gee Sin Hung Gar... If remember correctly it is a much older system (believed to be many hundreds, if not 1000 yrs old) related to Tai-Zu. It may or may not be related to the shaolin red-fist sets, but I doubt it, as those as much more recent.

Then there's allegedly some southern "red-boat" styles, and again Yuen Kik-Kai's "five-patern" Hung Kuen, which IMO is also completely unrelated to WFH Hung Ga (asides from being another revolutionary style practised in the same period).

Yeah Mok the Yuen Kik Kai version allegedly comes from Fong Sai Yuk......More confusion....

[David Jamieson]

:)

people in china don't use "village" hung kuen, because that is a term that Gene coined in one of his articles.

I believe it is exclusive to people who read his work and this magazine and those who listen to those who read the above. :p

but, when I talk to the older fellows, yes, it is merely "old" Hung Kuen.

old hung kuen to me is a lot tighter. smaller frame, shorter stances (no big square horse really or long bow and arrow etc), more abrupt in it's attacks and in my opinion looks and feels more practical as far as fighting style goes. Closer to a boxing regimen with a kick here and there a throw a grab, but a lot of attacks to the head with palms, elbows, forearms and fists.

I don't think there is a lot of this about in kungfu anymore. People have a tendency to lean towards the more popular versions of styles. Often this is a thing about having identity and inclusion within a given community. For some people it is even better if the community is particularly esoteric, but not exceptionally demanding of them as individuals. It fortifies their own views of themselves as apart, different and special which is a desire of almost every person. BUt that's a whole other tangent.

In the meantime, village style of a given art is an ok description if you have a shaky lineage or there is obvious and drastic differences from what is popularly regarded as a given thing.

[TenTigers]

the term 'Village Hung Kuen" existed before any article. I had heard my Sifu use this term for years, although it has been definately thrown around more as of late.

[Mano Mano]

I believe the term “village” is can also used as is a derogatory term in Cantonese sort of like referring to somebody as a country boy, hillbilly, backward, behind the times or from the sticks.

[TenTigers]

WFH/LSW was taught in the city-Guangdong,Hong Kong, and established their school as the prominant Hung-Ga school, and made Hung-Ga one of the most widely practiced styles of Kung-Fu. To refer to other versions being practiced outside the city as "Village Hung Kuen" makes it become a touchy subject, where some might find it derogatory. This is not saying that the WFH branches created the phrase, but only that it has become a popular expression.
I kinda like "Old Hung Kuen" too. But then there's always someone who will come out of the woodwork and proclaim that "Old Style" means outdated and the NEW SKOOL is more refined, or better than brand x, etc. and you're back to ticking someone off. Ya can't win. Now with the internet, you can inadvertantly insult someone across the ocean, and then it gets blown up out of proportion, and then they issue some "Public Statement"....

(phhttt!)

[TenTigers]

(whww!) that was close! All I need is to show up at the next tournament only to be surrounded by my peers weilding torches,pitchforks (um, Tiger Forks) and a length of rope... "SO, Ya think you're a wiseguy,eh?!"

um...yep.:D

[TenTigers]

gotta love that delete button!

[Pork Chop]

洪家 - Hung gar, ie the art from southern china practiced by Hung Hei-Gun and Wong Fei Hung.

洪 - character meaning vast, flood. The 3 stroke radical on the left meaning "water".

红拳 - Hong quan, the northern art practiced by folks from Shaolin.

红 - character meaning "red" in simplified chinese.

大洪拳, 小洪拳 - da hongquan, xiao hongquan; as quoted from here (http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs002.html), here (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=19787&cat=425&page=5), here (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=19782) and here (http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-hong-quan.htm).
They are both forms practiced in Hong Quan (红拳) that use a different hanzi than the style name.

I'm not making this stuff up. hehe

[TenTigers]

what did you do to print chinese characters?

[Pork Chop]

Well I usually type in Japanese, which also uses a lot of chinese characters (including 洪). In the case above I just cut & pasted.

In Windows, all you need is Asian Language Pack installed under Control Tab- Regional and Language Options - Languages tab, then under the same tab click the Details button to change input method and just add Chinese. If it's anything like Japanese, you'll type in the English pronunciation and chose the right characters.

As an aside, I find Japanese simplifications of hanzi a lot prettier than simplified hanzi from mainland China.

[mok]

Wow - Who knew spelling was so hard? :D

Here we have "Da Hong Quan"/"Xiao Hong Quan" described as "big red fist"/"small red fist", but the DVD/VCD clearly shows the Hanzi for the surname:
http://www.chinavoc.com/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=134

...Here again... same thing:
http://www.cgcmall.com/Dahongquan_p/vc00shaodhq.htm

...and once again:
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=19782


Looks like everybody is calling it "red fist" in english, but writes it with the same Hung as Hong Jia???

Either all the publishers got together to confuse the heck out of foreigners, hired the same absent-minded translator, or else monks can't spell.


Am I missing something here?

[mok]

...then there's this thread here from KFO, that claims da hong quan/xiao hong quan are actually the same art (or taken from) the original old song dynasty art that is effectivly Tai tzu.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=781010

:confused:

[GeneChing]

The Xia: No videos. Magazines. I sell magazines. There's material on that style of Hung Men in back issues of the magazine. Oh, alright, I do sell videos too, but you have to wait. We're launching a new DVD series in October - The Legendary Grandmasters of China (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46879&page=2) - and these two videos are included:
- Grandmaster Gao Chunhe: Hong Gate Hands (hongmenshou 洪门手)
DVD-OG005: REG: $19.95
- Grandmaster Zhang Shaobo: New Hong Fist (xin er lu hong quan 新二路红拳)
Double DVD DVD-OG009: REG: $24.95
However, these DVDs will probably just muddle the discussion even more. :p

Pork Chop: Excellent post about the different characters. You can see the same issue in the two videos I just posted above. What makes it more complicated is that even though you are right, there's a lot of misspellings in martial arts. Many lineages use the wrong characters. It's not at all uncommon to find the wrong character somewhere, especially in a name. Many masters were illiterate. That doesn't invalidate their lineage or their practice. It only muddles this issue even further. It's been a major problem for some time now, not only in Chinese-to-English translations, but also within the source Chinese. And you don't have to be from a village to misspell stuff. I've even seen Tamo misspelled at Shaolin.

[The Xia]

I kinda like "Old Hung Kuen" too. But then there's always someone who will come out of the woodwork and proclaim that "Old Style" means outdated and the NEW SKOOL is more refined, or better than brand x, etc.
Or you can get someone coming out of the woodwork proclaiming that "Old Style" is the real thing and NEW SKOOL is dilluted. :D
Seriousely, I'm not sure I like the term "Old Hung Kuen" either. Here is why. We know how Wong Fei Hung synthesized the material he had learned. We know how Lam Sai Wing also altered his Hung Gar. There's nothing wrong with that. However, who's to say that in other Hung Gar lines sifus didn't do the same? In fact, I'd guess that many "Old Hung Kuen" lineages have sifus who altered and added material.

[The Xia]

The Xia: No videos. Magazines. I sell magazines. There's material on that style of Hung Men in back issues of the magazine. Oh, alright, I do sell videos too, but you have to wait. We're launching a new DVD series in October - The Legendary Grandmasters of China (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46879&page=2) - and these two videos are included:
- Grandmaster Gao Chunhe: Hong Gate Hands (hongmenshou 洪门手)
DVD-OG005: REG: $19.95
- Grandmaster Zhang Shaobo: New Hong Fist (xin er lu hong quan 新二路红拳)
Double DVD DVD-OG009: REG: $24.95
However, these DVDs will probably just muddle the discussion even more. :p
Thanks! I welcome the confusion. It makes clarity all the more worth it. :D

[The Xia]

洪家 - Hung gar, ie the art from southern china practiced by Hung Hei-Gun and Wong Fei Hung.

洪 - character meaning vast, flood. The 3 stroke radical on the left meaning "water".
And is this the same "Hung" in Emperor Hung Wu and the Hung Men? And what about the bit with the red junks? Perhaps that was something that was done after. A play on words perhaps? And what is the significance of a vast flood?

[TenTigers]

Xia, you are correct. In fact, I know people who play an"Old Style Hung Kuen" and they feel that the new version is less effective. They refer to it as "Hong Kong Style." and so it goes.
Bottom line-your Gung-Fu is YOUR Gung-Fu. How effective it is depends on how effective you make it.
You can take "Old Style Hung Kuen," and render it useless, and you can take modern Contemporary Wu-Shu Nam Kuen and teach it hardcore and brutally effective. It's up to you.

[The Xia]

Xia, you are correct. In fact, I know people who play an"Old Style Hung Kuen" and they feel that the new version is less effective. They refer to it as "Hong Kong Style." and so it goes.
Bottom line-your Gung-Fu is YOUR Gung-Fu. How effective it is depends on how effective you make it.
You can take "Old Style Hung Kuen," and render it useless, and you can take modern Contemporary Wu-Shu Nam Kuen and teach it hardcore and brutally effective. It's up to you.
Very true. After all, Wu-Shu's Nam Kuen was formed by taking different parts of Southern styles and contemporary Wushu-izing it. I think it would be interesting to take it and Southern Gung Fu-ize it! :D

[The Xia]

I have to think that Hung Gar is still Hung Gar. From what I've seen of non-WFH lines (which I admit is very limited considering the little I've seen and the vastness of it), it still looks like Hung Gar to me. Different, yes, but Hung Gar nonetheless.

[PM]

wushu nanquan has nothing to do with Hung Kyun, "old" or "modern".

in what sense "new versions" (Wong Feihung, Lam Saiwing etc.)? do you think that "old" Hung kyun did not undergo changes, modifications, additions etc.? lou Hung Kyun is just a term denoting non/pre-WFH Hung Kyun, nothing else. in Chinese "old" does not have any derogatory emaning.

WFH Hung Kyun has both short bridges, narrow stances of Siu Lam Kyun Seut/old Hung Kyun and "long bridges, wide stances" (from Hap Ga/baak Hok/Lama Paai and CLF).

i do not believe in 250 yeas old unchanged styles (better than the "new", "modern" ones), it is just a silly marketing claim. the thing is the essence - skill and usage, that is real, lively tradition. is Gracie BJJ "new", "modern", "diluted", mainstream BJJ because it is not effective, and the "old" JJ or some pre-Gracie or "lost lineage" JJ is necessarily better?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ehhh, the problem is this pronunciation of Hong.

Also, you guys are posting incorrect stuff.

Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin created a series of Hong Quan, 洪拳, sets that he gave to Shaolin to preserve in case the Empire was overrun by it's north & northwestern enemies. This character for Hong is the correct character to use, it means Flowing (like a flood) Fist, meaning you do all the moves together seamlessly one into the other and you overcome the opponent like a tidal wave. Why? Because prior to the Sung Dynasty, there were no forms, they only practiced sequences of loose techniques. After this time was the first time that forms were created (at least in Shaolin).
So, around the 960s, Shaolin had the Xiao Hong Quan (2 sets), Da Hong Quan (6 sets), and the Lao (old) Hong Quan (4 sets) sets.

Indirectly, these sets had some stuff that passed on the the Southern Shaolin schools (they kept the moves they liked and made new sets that were modified to fit the south, etc, etc).

RED Fist, 红, is another style from Shanxi province, it is a mixture of Shaolin, Emei, and other stuff that they collected together over the centuries.

BEFORE the Sung Dynasty, there was a Hong Quan style already, Red Fist, it was practiced by the Tang Dynasty military. No forms, just fighting techniques.

Also, around the Yellow River was a set called Hong Quan, that was created from the 6 Step Quan.

Sichuan Hong Men is a separate style not related to Southern Hong Gar of any type. It is a Zhao family martial art that they passed on their after they escaped from the nothern invasion of the emperor (and the fall to the Jurchin and Mongols).

Southern Hong Men and Hong Gar is named after the first Ming Emperor's reign, and to do a play on words and to hide from the Manchus that they meant this homage to the first Ming emperor, they say "red" when the character is shown as Flowing because of the Red Junks, Free Masons, etc etc. But, it is likely, since this stuff wasn't written down til recently, that they might not have used the Flowing character.

Also, by the way, Southern Hong Men comes from what the Ming Military used for martial art, which was also named Hong Men in homage to the first Ming emperor's reign. These ex-soldiers, plotted to overcome the Manchu and became the revolutionaries. The sets that they practiced were called Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan and Tiger Claw techniques (no relationship to the northern Shaolin / Zhao Kuang Yin Song dynasty emperor's style).
The father of the Crane style founder was a Ming Military garisson leader before escaping with his daughter to the south.

Hung Hei-Gun was not his real name, he was a Ming royal family relative, he real surname was Chu (Zhu). He named himself that again in homeage to his original royal ancestor.

You can read the whole history of Southern CMA, how they are interrelated to Hong Quan, various origins, etc here at my website:
(if you see something factually wrong, please let me know and I will change it)

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm

[doug maverick]

this is one of the best discussion on martial arts i've seen on this board no bickering no troling just people stating what they know i love it.

[Wong Ying Home]

When doing some reserch for another project in China I spoke with one gentleman who was taught a routine called Man Jang Hong or All the River is Red, it was learned in the south and thenbought back to northern china where it is still taught today.

Of course my phonetic translation is very poor but this is what it sounded like to my wetsren ears, however the translation of the form name is correct.

Just thought this might tie in with what was being said by Sal re the red river

[The Xia]

wushu nanquan has nothing to do with Hung Kyun, "old" or "modern".
Modern Wushu Nan Kuen's connection to TCMA is that it is a Wushu-ized combination of various pieces of Southern Kung Fu. All I was saying is that I think it would be interesting to de-Wushuize it.

in what sense "new versions" (Wong Feihung, Lam Saiwing etc.)? do you think that "old" Hung kyun did not undergo changes, modifications, additions etc.?
That was my point. :D

lou Hung Kyun is just a term denoting non/pre-WFH Hung Kyun, nothing else. in Chinese "old" does not have any derogatory emaning.
I don’t think anyone here said it did.

[The Xia]

Ehhh, the problem is this pronunciation of Hong.

Also, you guys are posting incorrect stuff.

Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin created a series of Hong Quan, 洪拳, sets that he gave to Shaolin to preserve in case the Empire was overrun by it's north & northwestern enemies. This character for Hong is the correct character to use, it means Flowing (like a flood) Fist, meaning you do all the moves together seamlessly one into the other and you overcome the opponent like a tidal wave. Why? Because prior to the Sung Dynasty, there were no forms, they only practiced sequences of loose techniques. After this time was the first time that forms were created (at least in Shaolin).
So, around the 960s, Shaolin had the Xiao Hong Quan (2 sets), Da Hong Quan (6 sets), and the Lao (old) Hong Quan (4 sets) sets.

Indirectly, these sets had some stuff that passed on the the Southern Shaolin schools (they kept the moves they liked and made new sets that were modified to fit the south, etc, etc).

RED Fist, 红, is another style from Shanxi province, it is a mixture of Shaolin, Emei, and other stuff that they collected together over the centuries.

BEFORE the Sung Dynasty, there was a Hong Quan style already, Red Fist, it was practiced by the Tang Dynasty military. No forms, just fighting techniques.

Also, around the Yellow River was a set called Hong Quan, that was created from the 6 Step Quan.

Sichuan Hong Men is a separate style not related to Southern Hong Gar of any type. It is a Zhao family martial art that they passed on their after they escaped from the nothern invasion of the emperor (and the fall to the Jurchin and Mongols).

Southern Hong Men and Hong Gar is named after the first Ming Emperor's reign, and to do a play on words and to hide from the Manchus that they meant this homage to the first Ming emperor, they say "red" when the character is shown as Flowing because of the Red Junks, Free Masons, etc etc. But, it is likely, since this stuff wasn't written down til recently, that they might not have used the Flowing character.

Also, by the way, Southern Hong Men comes from what the Ming Military used for martial art, which was also named Hong Men in homage to the first Ming emperor's reign. These ex-soldiers, plotted to overcome the Manchu and became the revolutionaries. The sets that they practiced were called Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan and Tiger Claw techniques (no relationship to the northern Shaolin / Zhao Kuang Yin Song dynasty emperor's style).
The father of the Crane style founder was a Ming Military garisson leader before escaping with his daughter to the south.

Hung Hei-Gun was not his real name, he was a Ming royal family relative, he real surname was Chu (Zhu). He named himself that again in homeage to his original royal ancestor.

You can read the whole history of Southern CMA, how they are interrelated to Hong Quan, various origins, etc here at my website:
(if you see something factually wrong, please let me know and I will change it)

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle14.htm
Thanks. That clears a lot up!

[Sal Canzonieri]

By the way, Lao is not a bad thing to say in Chinese martial arts, it doesn't necessarily mean "old" as in leftover or decrepit or old fashioned or whatever negative thing.

Lao often means advanced, sets that are called Lao were done by people who were older and much experienced, so they were easier to do physically, but much more complex internally.

[TenTigers]

Well according to people that created the Contemporary Nam Kuen sets, the first one being an adaptation of LSW Hung-Ga's Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, and another more recent being a combinaton of Dan Gung Fuk Fu,Seurng Gung Fuk Fu and Fut Ga/CLF, I think it actually mght be related and bear some resemblance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzXi0p6GHzM

[The Xia]

Well according to people that created the Contemporary Nam Kuen sets, the first one being an adaptation of LSW Hung-Ga's Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen
Yeah, I heard that came to be because Chiu Kao demonstrated it in Beijing.

[TenTigers]

fixed the link

[mok]

Sal,

What your article does is compile a lot of separate and overlapping "histories" together with no sources acknowledged, and with no attempts to further validate the claims within.

I applaud you for compiling this as it does have significant value, but frankly there are so many contradictions within any style's sections in "your" text, not to mention contradictions between different style's accounts of claimed shared ancestry, lineage or origins, that it's possible to come-up with a case for just about anything.

For example going by your text, "tiger crane" was:
a) the original name for Yong chun Bai He Quan (who knows why they changed?)
b) created by Gee sin
c) based off Fujian's crane's san jin and Ba bu lin (where is this from, BTW?)
d) created by Hung Hei Goon
e) originally called 36-technique form and created by Bak Mei (WTF? I have done Hung Gar for a few years now and I have never heard this one before...)


Frankly, I wouldn't take half this stuff at face value as much of it comes from unverified sources.


Rispetto,

mok

[PM]

Well according to people that created the Contemporary Nam Kuen sets, the first one being an adaptation of LSW Hung-Ga's Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, and another more recent being a combinaton of Dan Gung Fuk Fu,Seurng Gung Fuk Fu and Fut Ga/CLF, I think it actually mght be related and bear some resemblance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzXi0p6GHzM

well, sorry, but no. no relation, no resemblance (talking about essence, not the sequence, ok).

my sigung, Lam Saiwing's nephew, spend with Lam Saiwing almost 3 decades. i have bought a book on wushu version of fu hok seung ying, and wanted to show the book to him, but my si hing dais and my sifu told me not to do it, otherwise Grandmaster might get a heartattack.

Reader's Digest IS NOT Shakespeare, taebo IS NOT Muay Thai/full contact kickboxing, power yoga is not yoga, fu hok seung ying IS NOT wushu nanquan. according the Hung Kyun core principles, all is wrong - and you as Hung Kyun player certainly know that.

Grandmaster Chiu Kao (Jiu Gaau), pure Hung Kyun man - demonstrating Hung Kyun in Beijing does not mean he was the one who has created any of the compulsory nanquan sets. Northerners who did so do not know anything about Southern gungfu.

[TenTigers]

Chow Hung (Cao Xiong) of Guangzhao was one of the co=creators,(Of the set on the link, not FHSYK) and is of Hung-Ga lineage (non-WFH)as well as Dai Sing Pek Kwa under Gen Duk-Hoi, and is considered one of China's Living Treasures..not a Northerner.
That being said, you can definately see changes in structures,sum-faht were made for competition.
I guess you can give them the sequences, and then the essence will be altered according to the requirements of the venue, in this case, Contemporary Wu-Shu.
We agree on some points,we disagree on others, so I suppose we agree to disagree.

[The Xia]

To me, it looks like PM misread what we wrote. :)
I didn't say that Chiu Kao created any Wushu Nan Kuen sets. I remember hearing somewhere that he demonstrated FHSYK in Beijing and it was well received. I also remember hearing that he taught a little bit of Hung Gar there as well, but it wasn't much because of time constraints. This, according to what I heard, became one of the influences of Wushu Nan Kuen. If I am remembering it correctly lol.
On the content of Wushu Nan Kuen, I'm not saying that it's traditional Hung Gar. I'm just saying that it's a compilation of different things from Southern Gung Fu altered to fit Modern Wushu competitions. All I'm saying is that someone can take that set, and play it according the principles of his Southern Style. Essentially, taking the modern Wushu out of it and putting the traditional Gung Fu back into it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

What your article does is compile a lot of separate and overlapping "histories" together with no sources acknowledged, and with no attempts to further validate the claims within.

I applaud you for compiling this as it does have significant value, but frankly there are so many contradictions within any style's sections in "your" text, not to mention contradictions between different style's accounts of claimed shared ancestry, lineage or origins, that it's possible to come-up with a case for just about anything.

For example going by your text, "tiger crane" was:
a) the original name for Yong chun Bai He Quan (who knows why they changed?)
b) created by Gee sin
c) based off Fujian's crane's san jin and Ba bu lin (where is this from, BTW?)
d) created by Hung Hei Goon
e) originally called 36-technique form and created by Bak Mei (WTF? I have done Hung Gar for a few years now and I have never heard this one before...)


Frankly, I wouldn't take half this stuff at face value as much of it comes from unverified sources.


Rispetto,

mok

Yeah, I know it was written for a newsletter from way back when.
I need to update the info and gather the sources for what was posted.
I don;t have much time in life right now to do that, but sincerely want to.

those a-e that you mention, if you think about it, they don't necessarily contract each other. Many sets have changed their name and evolved depending on the time period. Gee Sin's tiger Crane is not anymore the Tiger Crane set that Hung changed it into. C is just looking at the roots of the set.
A and E can easily be the same thing, just different time periods.
Tiger Crane was changed to Yong chun Bai He Quan by the people Fang taught the art too.
E, I was told this by Poi Chan, and there is a book that compares the song for tiger crane and this 36 set, and they are just about the same.

[David Jamieson]

Is Poi Chan a Hung Gar man?

WFH line people can for the most part, only impart what they know of their own line and frankly, teh WFH lines are pretty well known even outside those lines.

The old shaolin methods are so widespread to try to pin them down to any one source other than shaolin is gonna be hit and miss at best.

The real problem in getting the history of kungfu is manyfold.

for one thing, a lot of reputable masters were simply murdered and those lines were ended over the course of the 20th century.

the cultural revolution took place and wiped out much knowledge in mainland china of just about everything.

Taiwan has political motivation in any martial art story it tells simply because of it's political hatred for China.

The KMT faction are similar in this way and are biased and secretive at the same time in how they present their histories.

A broad brush is needed because that's all there really is now in regards to depth of history. So much is lost because of the oral tradition being akin to a huge game of telephone over time.

I look at it this way, the stories are nice, but they are not necessary to the practice. Find what works through the working of it, and leave the stories to the kids. :)

[The Xia]

I'm sure Frank Yee didn't pull those names out of nowhere though.

[South Paw]

Grandmaster Chiu Kao (Jiu Gaau), pure Hung Kyun man - demonstrating Hung Kyun in Beijing does not mean he was the one who has created any of the compulsory nanquan sets. Northerners who did so do not know anything about Southern gungfu.

Absolutely right Pavel. And to underline this: These newly created forms do not have any applications, because they only took the outward appearance. These are FORMS WITHOUT CONTENT.

[South Paw]

I didn't say that Chiu Kao created any Wushu Nan Kuen sets. I remember hearing somewhere that he demonstrated FHSYK in Beijing and it was well received. I also remember hearing that he taught a little bit of Hung Gar there as well, but it wasn't much because of time constraints. This, according to what I heard, became one of the influences of Wushu Nan Kuen. If I am remembering it correctly lol.
I agree. That's what Sifu Chiu Chi Ling told me in '95, when commenting on his father's inheritance and accomplishments, after his death that same year.

[The Xia]

I agree. That's what Sifu Chiu Chi Ling told me in '95, when commenting on his father's inheritance and accomplishments, after his death that same year.
Yeah, I remember the info I posted being from an interview with Sifu Chiu Chi Ling. Thanks for your post.

[SIFU RON]

Is Poi Chan a Hung Gar man?

WFH line people can for the most part, only impart what they know of their own line and frankly, teh WFH lines are pretty well known even outside those lines.

The old shaolin methods are so widespread to try to pin them down to any one source other than shaolin is gonna be hit and miss at best.

The real problem in getting the history of kungfu is manyfold.

for one thing, a lot of reputable masters were simply murdered and those lines were ended over the course of the 20th century.

the cultural revolution took place and wiped out much knowledge in mainland china of just about everything.

Taiwan has political motivation in any martial art story it tells simply because of it's political hatred for China.





The KMT faction are similar in this way and are biased and secretive at the same time in how they present their histories.

A broad brush is needed because that's all there really is now in regards to depth of history. So much is lost because of the oral tradition being akin to a huge game of telephone over time.

I look at it this way, the stories are nice, but they are not necessary to the practice. Find what works through the working of it, and leave the stories to the kids. :)

Good point, well taken. I am new to this forum, I learned Kung Fu from the last GM Ark Yuey Wong. I was one of his first non Chinese students.

GM Wong left for the USA around 1921. He told me that in China one either learned it all (Kung Fu) or part of it. That did all change when the communist took over, add the cultural revolution, and what is left from way back then ?

GM Wong taught closed first Hung Ga Styles and Hung Ga Animal Styles.
He said "Boat People" Hung Ga is related to Hung Ga closed fist and the most comon Animal Hung Ga styles are the TigerCrane.

I feel the History of all Kung Fu is important. I love all of it.

Thanks, Sifu Ron

[The Xia]

http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/usa/washingtondc/hfhggfc.htm
On this site, there is a form called Hung Mun Sau. Anyone know anything about it?

[The Xia]

GM Wong taught closed first Hung Ga Styles and Hung Ga Animal Styles.
He said "Boat People" Hung Ga is related to Hung Ga closed fist and the most comon Animal Hung Ga styles are the TigerCrane.
Isn't "Boat People" Hung Gar from Hung Hei Goon and the red junks?

[banditshaw]

Isn't "Boat People" Hung Gar from Hung Hei Goon and the red junks?

How about Gee Sin? Didn't he influence Hung Hei Goon and Luk Ah Choi?
Also is there a connection somewhere to Wing Chun through Gee Sin? They were also a part of the revolutionary ''Red Boat'' culture supposedly.
Look at the opening of Fu Hok. There are some similarities for sure.

[The Xia]

Gee Sin is Hung Hei Goon's sifu, but I've always seen Hung Hei Goon credited as the founder of Hung Gar. I believe Gee Sin had other students who went on to found other styles (Soo Hak Fu's Hak Fu Mun comes to mind). Both Wing Chun and Hung Gar are Southern Shaolin, revolutionary styles (and as you said, both have connections to the red junks), but I'm not sure if Wing Chun has connection to Gee Sin. I thought Ng Mui was the Wing Chun founder. I know what you mean about the opening to Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. Hung Gar does have short hand. Not sure about Wing Chun connections though.

[TenTigers]

I've met two guys in their seventies who practice Hung-Ga. One states that Hung-Ga and Wing Chun have the same origins, and are very connected. He says that Wing Chun is the snake and crane techniques in Hung-Ga. The other simply refers to the short hand techniques of Hung-Ga as Wing Chun.
Gee Sien figures promenantly in both styles' traditional histories.

[The Xia]

That's interesting. I'm not all that familiar with Wing Chun history. Is Ng Mui a student of Gee Sin? What kind of connection do you think there is between Fukien Bak Hok and Hung Gar (and Wing Chun for that matter)?

[TenTigers]

Using our 'Traditional Histories" as truth is like being a Religious Fundamentalist. Each style has their own history, which is mostly legend,myth,wishful thinking, and a sprinkling of factual info at best.
According to many traditional histories,Ng Mui, Jee Siem, Fung Do Duk,Bak Mei Do Jung,and Miu Hing were the five who escaped from the burning of the Southern Siu-Lum Temple. But there are no records of them even existing, other than lMartial Arts legends, and Hung-Mun legends. Not that it really matters, these arts stand on their own, even if they were created by a one-legged retarded pirate.:p
Ng Mui and Jee Siem were both elders in the Temple, Jee Siem being the Abbott, and Ng Mui being a nun. Jee Siem reappears in the Wing Chun legends on the Opera Boats (some have him disguised as a cook) and teaches his staff and knives. There is also a branch of Jee Siem Wing Chun.
Hung-Ga, from what I've seen of "Village Styles," and non-WFH lines, had a shorter horse, and shorter bridges, with the appearance closer to the Hakka styles and Fukien styles. Only after combining the long bridges from such styles as Hop-Ga, did it take the shape we see now. Many similarities with Fukien Bak Hok, Check out Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok P'ai, and Ng Ga Kuen for what may have been earlier versions. Mainland Wing Chun,while still looking similar to Hong Kong Wing Chun, still has many variations.

[The Xia]

Using our 'Traditional Histories" as truth is like being a Religious Fundamentalist. Each style has their own history, which is mostly legend,myth,wishful thinking, and a sprinkling of factual info at best.
But it's the best we've got! :)
Besides, I always thought that since there is some line of consistancy in stories told by all these different people living in different places, then there must be some truth to it.

According to many traditional histories,Ng Mui, Jee Siem, Fung Do Duk,Bak Mei Do Jung,and Miu Hing were the five who escaped from the burning of the Southern Siu-Lum Temple. But there are no records of them even existing, other than lMartial Arts legends, and Hung-Mun legends. Not that it really matters, these arts stand on their own, even if they were created by a one-legged retarded pirate.:p
Ng Mui and Jee Siem were both elders in the Temple, Jee Siem being the Abbott, and Ng Mui being a nun. Jee Siem reappears in the Wing Chun legends on the Opera Boats (some have him disguised as a cook) and teaches his staff and knives. There is also a branch of Jee Siem Wing Chun.
Thanks. I didn't know much about Ng Mui. The most I know of her story is from the Michelle Yeoh movie. :p

Hung-Ga, from what I've seen of "Village Styles," and non-WFH lines, had a shorter horse, and shorter bridges, with the appearance closer to the Hakka styles and Fukien styles. Only after combining the long bridges from such styles as Hop-Ga, did it take the shape we see now. Many similarities with Fukien Bak Hok, Check out Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok P'ai, and Ng Ga Kuen for what may have been earlier versions. Mainland Wing Chun,while still looking similar to Hong Kong Wing Chun, still has many variations.
I notice some hand postures I've seen in Fukien Bak Hok in Hung Gar. Of course, there's also the crane's beak which I have not seen in Fukien Bak Hok (which I believe comes from Lion's Roar).
I found some Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok videos here.
http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html
I like the Ng Gar I’ve seen from Ark Yuey Wong. It reminds me a lot of Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut (which would make sense given the art’s history).

[southernkf]

speaking in tradition, Wing Chun is said to have been created or influenced by Ng Mui, depending on some subtleties in the story. Like Gee Shim, Ng Mui is said to be the source of many styles. Some people in Wing Chun do believe Gee Shim created Wing Chun. Most lines don't believe that, but they believe is methods were integrated with the pole form.

Of course Gee Shim and Ng Mui are often claimed to be "peers". They are said to have lived together and presumably trained either together or at least exposed to the same training, that of which ever temple you place them in.

Unfortunately there is no records to verify people or histories. We have to take this on oral tradition. And people get so worked up over them at times. Unfortunately oral tradition is often contradictory, yet people still argue as if it is written in stone. Typically what "I" say is the true version and what "you" say is incorrect.

The next question is if Hung Gar and Wing Chun is related. This is a tough question. What is the basis of this idea? Oral tradition? It is possible the oral tradition could be wrong, misleading, and/or confussed. Hung Gar is known to have been mixed quite a bit with other styles and it seems relativly few people acknowledge that mixture. It typically isn't in the oral traditions. And few people understand the source of the Hung Kuen forms. So to me we are comparing very different things on a surface level. If your thinking wing chun is just the snake and crane of hung gar, then I think your missing a lot of subtlies of wing chun. I think it is much more than just that.

Hung Gar seems to have a very different framework than wing chun. I am not so sure that the core is the same. Some hung gar does have some very interesting similarities though. But then again, wing chun has remarkable similarities to other arts that have no connection to hung gar. It is hard to say if both arts derived from the same source, or were both influenced by similar sources? Some hands seem to be found in both styles, like bong sau, yat ji choi, po pai, etc. But since both arts were around the same area and time, it is possible that some hands were exchanged or are so common that they are likely to be found in many fighting arts. yat ji choi is found in many arts, including early western boxing, and no one is seriously suggesting a connection.

Perhaps the arts are related, but it doesn't detract from either art if they are found to have different sources than those commonly claimed.

[TenTigers]

It's interseting to connect the dots. I also study Jook Lum SPM. The similarities between that and the opening short hand sections in the pillar sets of Hung-Ga is astounding. Many techniques are not simply similar in appearance, but identical in application as well. Then again, it depends on whose understanding of technique you are going by. This can get political, so let's let sleeping dragons lie.

[The Xia]

This can get political, so let's let sleeping dragons lie.
Will do....
Anyone ever hear of that Hung Men Sau set?

[SIFU RON]

http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/usa/washingtondc/hfhggfc.htm
On this site, there is a form called Hung Mun Sau. Anyone know anything about it?

RICHARD MIER KING studied Kung Fu with one of GM Ark Wong's senior students.
There is a group of Kung Fu Martial Artists that get together with him to benefit all Martial Arts. Truly a good group. I like them.

I agree with all the comments everyone has made.

Reards, Sifu Ron

[Jim Anestasi]

Since I am one of those senior student's Of Ark Y. Wong as is Sifu Ron,A lot of G.M Ark Y. Wong's teaching's have Hung Ga in most of his system. I will go as far as to say it was one of his favorite styles,when mixed with the other families that he taught.
Regards,
Uncle jim:D

[The Xia]

So Hung Men Sau is a Hung Gar set from GM Wong's Ng Gar Kuen?

[SIFU RON]

So Hung Men Sau is a Hung Gar set from GM Wong's Ng Gar Kuen?

THATS A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER.

I feel as though all Hung Ga is related.

Today we have many Sifus teaching Chinese Martail Arts . We also have entered into the era of the American Kung Fu Masters.

Today with With the internet we can all share this valuable information. I see similarites in all traditional Hung Ga forms and application.

GM Ark Wong was the first to break the tradition of teaching Chinese only. The Hung Ga he taught was ancient and traditional. It invloved both Closed Fist , Animal Styles, and, at times combined.

Thank you for your reply.

Sifu Ron

[Laukarbo]

THATS A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER.




Really ?:confused:

do u have the Hung Men Sau set in ur curiliculum or not?

:D

[The Xia]

Thanks but...



Really ?:confused:

do u have the Hung Men Sau set in ur curiliculum or not?

:D
What he said. :confused: :D

[banditshaw]

It might of been a communication block between Master Wong and his American students. Jim and Sifu Ron might know the set by another name.
Does anyone know what the set looks like or consists of?
I've never heard of it personally.

[SIFU RON]

It might of been a communication block between Master Wong and his American students. Jim and Sifu Ron might know the set by another name.
Does anyone know what the set looks like or consists of?
I've never heard of it personally.

Good point. A video would help. Thank you banditshaw.

I have seen Hung Ga peformed with several different names and to me it was always Hung Ga. Ark Wong may have come from a different lieage. Back when Jim and I started there was no one else. GM Ark Wong was the first. Today there are too many to count.

The Hung Ga taught to us is similar to YC Wong's Hung Ga. Hung Ga is familiar to all of us that have studied tradional Kung Fu. I respect all teachers of Hung Ga , or any style of Kung Fu.

We both do and we have great repect for all Sifu's of all styles.

Best to all, Sifu Ron

[The Xia]

Thanks SIFU RON. That clarifies your answer. I found the set listed on this webpage that I put a link to a few posts back. http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/usa/washingtondc/hfhggfc.htm

The first time I heard of the Hung Men Sau set is from that site. I don't know anything about the sifu or the kwoon. I only found it because another poster asked about Hung Kuen in D.C., so I posted the link. I found the sets listed to be interesting. I'm always interested in new branches (to me) of Hung Gar and their forms, characteristics, history, etc. But the Hung Men Sau, because of its name, particularly caught my eye. I’m thinking that it may be a possible set in the Hung Men Hung Gar that was mentioned in the interview.

[Jim Anestasi]

About the form you were talking about,on that Web Site mentioned and saw the pictures shown I recognized it.This form was in a book that Sifu Wong had on his shelves of books in his store. This was in late 58 I think as I spent alot of time looking at books & when I found it I showed it to Sifu Wong,he looked at the pictures and we discussed the moves he said it was Hung Ga style and it was called Tiger & Crane. As I recall we talked about one of those pic's on the site mentioned the one where it showed the person leaning and Striking with Hok Chuan,Sifu said the leaning to the side was not done correctly,also he said that who ever drawed the pictures was trying to deceive the people, He was adamant about it. We talked about it for along time for several days but he said that move would not be done the way it is shown also there were several other pictures the book showed that also were wrong.

Regards Sifu Jim:cool::D

[SIFU RON]

About the form you were talking about,on that Web Site mentioned and saw the pictures shown I recognized it.This form was in a book that Sifu Wong had on his shelves of books in his store. This was in late 58 I think as I spent alot of time looking at books & when I found it I showed it to Sifu Wong,he looked at the pictures and we discussed the moves he said it was Hung Ga style and it was called Tiger & Crane. As I recall we talked about one of those pic's on the site mentioned the one where it showed the person leaning and Striking with Hok Chuan,Sifu said the leaning to the side was not done correctly,also he said that who ever drawed the pictures was trying to deceive the people, He was adamant about it. We talked about it for along time for several days but he said that move would not be done the way it is shown also there were several other pictures the book showed that also were wrong.

Regards Sifu Jim:cool::D


Hung Ga Hand Thru The Heart ......Along with Monk Pang's Dragon Palm ......The Hung Ga Tiger/Crane........

Still being taught in their originality.

Sifu Ron

[mok]

......The Hung Ga Tiger/Crane........
Still being taught in their originality.
Sifu Ron


Not quite - if going by Jim's comments above (re: Ark y. Wong's comments concerning the Lam Sai Wing pictures/manuals)... :)

[SIFU RON]

Not quite - if going by Jim's comments above (re: Ark y. Wong's comments concerning the Lam Sai Wing pictures/manuals)... :)


I am referring to what we learned from GM Wong, not anything out of a book.
Everyone has their own opinion.

Reagrds, Sifu Ron

[SIFU RON]

Not quite - if going by Jim's comments above (re: Ark y. Wong's comments concerning the Lam Sai Wing pictures/manuals)... :)

I am refering to the Hung Ga we both learned from GM Ark Wong. A view point of a drawing in a book is just an opinion.

[Jim Anestasi]

I agree with you Ron, as Sifu never taught us anything out of a book, we learned what he had learned & correctly. As I recall way back then that the pic's in said book there was only a few that he made comments on,Sifu showed me why the movement was wrong,as I was on the floor when I tried it on him, as shown in the pic's.:cool::D

Sifu Jim:confused:

[SIFU RON]

I agree with you Ron, as Sifu never taught us anything out of a book, we learned what he had learned & correctly. As I recall way back then that the pic's in said book there was only a few that he made comments on,Sifu showed me why the movement was wrong,as I was on the floor when I tried it on him, as shown in the pic's.:cool::D

Sifu Jim:confused:

It is amazing what Sifu could do with that floor. Here he is 90 pounds soaking wet
yet he bounced everyone around like they were feathers. He always had that "smile". I will never forget that "smile". Sifu was doing a demo in Chinatown on that small stage. One of the performers(250 pounder) grabed him from the back and tryed to choke him out. Only thing is he tried it for real. the feather (Sifu) made that swinging Dragon move and dropped him right over with that shoulder throw he loved. Afterwards, Sifu said to him " no too smart".............next time I hurt you."..........

Loved him, Sifu Ron