Situational Awareness in Grappling/back break

[Black Jack II]

Situational awareness is important in sport competitions, anyone here who has done any highschool sports such as wrestling or football knows that, the question is, who gets the blame in this video.....the guy on top....the guy on bottom....or the ref with his thumb up his own a$$.

http://www.break.com/index/wrestling_move_goes_bad.html

[Three Harmonies]

A little of all IMO. The ref would have had to act very quickly to step in. The guy on bottom should know better, and the guy executing the technique should have gone slower and or not done it at all.
Too bad. Anyone know the follow up story? Was the cat ****ed up permanently?
Jake

[Knifefighter]

Situational awareness is important in sport competitions, anyone here who has done any highschool sports such as wrestling or football knows that, the question is who get the blame in this video.....the guy on top....the guy on bottom....or the ref with his thumb up his own a$$.

http://www.break.com/index/wrestling_move_goes_bad.html

That is a standard intermediate level sweep in BJJ. The ref could not have stopped that in time. The guy on the top was simply countering.

If anyone is to blame it is the guy on the bottom attempting the sweep. It is his responsibility to switch to another sweep once he started to become compromised and out of position with his head & neck.

[Oso]

i dunno, i'm going to give most of the blame to the top guy. when he makes his first step around with the right foot the bottom guy is at max extension. he should have felt that and seen that the guys head was bent backwards under him and never made the second step and sit. IF he had made a full step and sit in one motion then he would not have been as aware and wouldn't be at fault as much as I think he is. the pause between the first and second step should have given him as much time as needed to feel the level of resistance and realize he was about to maim someone. So, because of the pause, he should have beem more 'situationally aware' enough not to eff up his bro.

However, the ref was way to far away from the action and bottom dude should have tucked his head.

Top Guy = 70%
Bottom Guy = 15%
Ref = 15%


But, on the other hand, the primary goal of the ref should be maintaining the safety of the competitors so you could say 100% his fault.

[Water Dragon]

It's just one of those things that happen. I don't think you can 'blame' anyone. If you're gonna play, you have to understand this as a possibility. Martial arts are for dumb @sses, not wimps. :D

[1bad65]

Just a freak accident in my opinion.

I saw at a tournament once both guys shot for a double leg at the same time and both led with their heads. Big clash of heads! One guy was knocked out, the other was in serious pain.

[golden arhat]

if i were the bottom guy i would have yelled stop wayyy before that happened

and if i was the top guy i would have done a walls of jericho type submition instead of going all out in to what he did

failure on all parts i think


but sh!t dude

owwwwww sh!t i'm still cringing

cheers for that, i'm gonna feel a bit sick all week now


owwww **** **** bollocks

i feel sorry for that dude right there

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Train Your Gymnastics Bridge Gents!!

My Daughter Goes Into That Position For Fun. In Fact, She Can Bend Further.

I Blame The Top Guy, He Should Have Felt That He Had His Opponent In A Crippling Position And Backed Off.

In Fact, The Posture He Had Him In Was So Severe That There Is No Way He Could Not Have Known...this May Be Purposeful.

[bodhitree]

I think the guy on bottom was most to blame. He should have opened his guard and went for something else.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the guy on bottom was most to blame. He should have opened his guard and went for something else.

Reply]
No way, the top guy should have had the experience to know what he was doing....that guy should not be allowed in the rig untill he learns some controll.

This is a modern ring sport here, not the invasion of the Qing in 1127 AD

If he does not have the ability to know if his opponent is in a seriously threatening position, then he needs to take up crotchet instead.

[1bad65]

It's the bottom guy's responsiblity to let go or to tap or yell out. If you yell in a BJJ tourny, it's considered a verbal tap. Plus, both guys were not white belts, so the guy on bottom should have known when he lost his sub and let go.

Also, it looked like a kneebar from the guard attempt. On that move I learned to get my head to the OUTSIDE of the leg you are after. He kept his head INSIDE, opening himself up for that to happen.

[Knifefighter]

It's the bottom guy's responsiblity to let go or to tap or yell out. If you yell in a BJJ tourny, it's considered a verbal tap. Plus, both guys were not white belts, so the guy on bottom should have known when he lost his sub and let go.

Also, it looked like a kneebar from the guard attempt. On that move I learned to get my head to the OUTSIDE of the leg you are after. He kept his head INSIDE, opening himself up for that to happen.

It was a sweep attempt (inside wrap around at the ankle, keeping guard closed, arch into opponent) His best bet would have been to grab the sleeve and transition to an umoplata sweep or come up to a reverse single leg.

And yes, it was his responsibility. The top guy was just countering and, in all likelyhood, didn't realize the bottom person was in trouble.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Um guys, LOOK at the position the top guy was in...if he could not realize what he was about to do had seriously dangerous consequences, then he does not belong in this sport.

How can you have someone like that and not think the obvious outcome is a spinal or neck injury?

It happened too fast for a tap or some other form of submission, and the guy was LOOKING down at his opponent before he did it. You are telling me he couldn't see such an obvious injury in the making?

Come on!!

[Knifefighter]

Um guys, LOOK at the position the top guy was in...if he could not realize what he was about to do had seriously dangerous consequences, then he does not belong in this sport.
How can you have someone like that and not think the obvious outcome is a spinal or neck injury?
It happened too fast for a tap or some other form of submission, and the guy was LOOKING down at his opponent before he did it. You are telling me he couldn't see such an obvious injury in the making?
Come on!!

I compete regularly in submission grappling and BJJ and have been doing so for years. I also do some refing... and, yes, that's what I am telling you.

The guy on the top would have been pretty oblivious to the danger he was placing his opponent in. From that angle you can't tell what is going on with your opponent. He could be switching to another sweep or submission in a fraction of a second. You have no time to sit there and analyze the situation. You are just concentrating on not getting swept and getting out of your compromised position as he is working on unbalancing you.

Go out learn some grappling, do some competitions and come back in a few years and then you might be qualified to pass judgement.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sorry dude, there is NO WAY you can have someone in a position like that and still be clueless that you could break his back or neck. You would have to be the dumbest rock on the block.

[Water Dragon]

It happens all the time, Gian. It's called 'stacking' and usually you just use it to pass.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He didn't just pass, he layed in and snapped his back and or neck. If that was not intentional, it was gross negligence on an incredible scale.

[Black Jack II]

As most accidents go, the truth most likely is buried somewhere in the middle.

[1bad65]

He didn't just pass, he layed in and snapped his back and or neck. If that was not intentional, it was gross negligence on an incredible scale.

And what is your grappling experience?

[Knifefighter]

Sorry dude, there is NO WAY you can have someone in a position like that and still be clueless that you could break his back or neck. You would have to be the dumbest rock on the block.

LOL... as with everything else that is not related to kung fu dancing forms, you are once again clueless.

[Knifefighter]

And what is your grappling experience?

He has none.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am really beginning to think that grappling experience = total lack of common sense.....

[Becca]

He didn't just pass, he layed in and snapped his back and or neck. If that was not intentional, it was gross negligence on an incredible scale. Or a horrible accident. I can't see that vid, as that is one of the very few sites my work blocks, but I think I'm getting a very clear picture of what went down.

RD, have you ever kicked and caught your training partner badly? Not that you kicked bad or he blocked bad, it just connected odd and somebody got hurt? It happens; people get injured, sometimes very badly. It's not a blame thing, 'Mijo.

[Water Dragon]

I'm thinking the guy on top was trying to stack to pass guard and the guy on bottom was trying to keep the guard and attempting a sweep. I could be wrong, but that looks likely to me.

[Knifefighter]

I am really beginning to think that grappling experience = total lack of common sense.....

Lack of common sense is trying to affix blame where there is none.

Let's put it in terms that you understand. When doing forms... no that won't work. Nobody ever got seriously hurt doing forms.

OK... women. No that doesn't apply because it is always your fault for choosing crazy women.

How about this... sometimes people in gymnastics attempt a maneuver that is dangerous, screw up and break their necks. It is no one's fault... the person just miscalulated or slipped or any number of unfortunate things.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

A gymnast is trapped within the confines of thier momentum...this guy had him in a very dangerous position, and THEN snapped his back. He should have known before he even initiated the final movement what the potential results would have been in the position he had him in....he had him bent backwards more than most people can bend forwards PRIOR to engaging in the motion that injured his opponent.

He's fully to blame. I'm going to go so far as to say it was intentional.

[Black Jack II]

I'm going to go so far as to say it was intentional.

Let's be real.:rolleyes:

It is an accident, a terrible and horrible accident, but an accident none the less, the thing is with "most" sport accidents is that prevention "almost" always could of happened.



Nobody ever got seriously hurt doing forms.

Heh....I remeber seeing a vid where a karateka breaks his own nose doing a form and punches himself in the face.:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

We just got combat sports accepted back into the mainstream. In the dark days of the 80's the Olympic Committee was determined to convince us that figure skating was a sport and anything with contact was 'barbaric'. Judo and San Da were you two best options for controlled play. ([point sparring don't count, and neither did full contact kickboxing because of the limits.)

We've come a long way. The real problem is if accidents like this are used against the sport itself. This could be a real f@cking problem.

RD - another dark reality: often the more rules there are, the more injuries. In Judo I saw way more serious injuries than under San Da or San Shou rules. Boxers get way more messed up than MMA guys.

There is a happy balance, but when talking abut a situation like this, it is easy to judge if have no experience in what they are doing. Now, I am no BJJ guy, but from my Judo days I can tell you, a lot of the time, sh!t just happens. Guy zigs when he should have zagged. My first response was that this was intentional - until I had buddies who play that game look at it.

We can end all our fun if we get judgmental without proper judgment.

[Becca]

Let's put it in terms that you understand. When doing forms... no that won't work. Nobody ever got seriously hurt doing forms.
Aww common, KF, people have too gotten seriously hurt doing forms, 'specially 2 person forms. Some of the more complex forms can be as intricate as anything a top gymnast would do in a routine. Don't let your disrespect for forms and traditionalists blind you to the fact that forms can be very athletically challenging...

[SevenStar]

Um guys, LOOK at the position the top guy was in...if he could not realize what he was about to do had seriously dangerous consequences, then he does not belong in this sport.

how is a guy who has NEVER done the sport, NEVER competed in the sport and probably never will gonna be able to say what a person who does do it should have realized? c'mon man... Anyway, the guy on top was countering - his counter was met with resistance so he continued forcing it. I would not fault him. The guy on bottom should have transitioned to another technique. A beginner mistake is to hold a position and fight to keep it when you should have long since let it go. This is one example. Another is when a guy gets guard and pulls his opponent close to him and holds him there instead of trying to work for a sweep or sub.


How can you have someone like that and not think the obvious outcome is a spinal or neck injury?

that is an afterthought. the thought is "I want to counter, I am performing my counter and he is resisting. I must try harder, or switch to another technique." His next thought may have been, "He is giving, so I am gonna continue to force it..." He was just working his technique.


It happened too fast for a tap or some other form of submission, and the guy was LOOKING down at his opponent before he did it. You are telling me he couldn't see such an obvious injury in the making?

Come on!!


if the guy couldn't tap, he should have yelled. prior to that, he shoulda just let go and went for something else.

[SevenStar]

We just got combat sports accepted back into the mainstream. In the dark days of the 80's the Olympic Committee was determined to convince us that figure skating was a sport and anything with contact was 'barbaric'. Judo and San Da were you two best options for controlled play. ([point sparring don't count, and neither did full contact kickboxing because of the limits.)

We've come a long way. The real problem is if accidents like this are used against the sport itself. This could be a real f@cking problem.

RD - another dark reality: often the more rules there are, the more injuries. In Judo I saw way more serious injuries than under San Da or San Shou rules. Boxers get way more messed up than MMA guys.

There is a happy balance, but when talking abut a situation like this, it is easy to judge if have no experience in what they are doing. Now, I am no BJJ guy, but from my Judo days I can tell you, a lot of the time, sh!t just happens. Guy zigs when he should have zagged. My first response was that this was intentional - until I had buddies who play that game look at it.

We can end all our fun if we get judgmental without proper judgment.


definitely. I have seen more injuries in judo than d@mn near anything else.

[MasterKiller]

Never would have happened in a no-gi match. I blame the clothes. ;)

[SevenStar]

good point!

[Oso]

definitely. I have seen more injuries in judo than d@mn near anything else.

yea, the one judo tourney I went to there were multiple injuries. I've got tape of a girl just lying there wailing with a popped elbow for minutes before anyone went out to help her. I didn't know what the hold up was but she lay there for a while.

[Water Dragon]

Judo is for dumb @sses, not for wimps.

[Oso]

xxxxxxxxxx* is for *******es, not for wimps.





*where 'xxxxxxxxxx' = any contact sport.



"Health benefits????? Ummm, go take yoga, there aren't really any good long term health benefits to martial arts."