Old School Kung-Fu flix & Copyright issues

[yutyeesam]

Hey I noticed that in these old school Kung-Fu DVDs released by a group called "Ground Zero Entertainment", that there is no copyright symbol or warnings for piracy or public display of any sort whatsoever. DVDs like this (http://shopping.yahoo.com/b:Black%20Belt%20Theatre%20Double%20Feature:966699 30)

Ground Zero used to have a website, which is now defunct, don't even know if they're still in business.

When there's no copyright, trademark, registered symbol of any sort, does that mean it's fair game to broadcast without having to seek permission?

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[doug maverick]

that means ground zero probably got those films without permission and were just selling and maeing a buck hopeing nobdoy will notice.

[yutyeesam]

If that's the case, then wouldn't any place who sells these Ground Zero products be selling illegal products? HKflix sells them http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/title.Black+Belt+Theatre/qx/titles.htm

And I've seen these available at retail outlets such as Best Buy and Circuit City. So how does that work? Could they all get into trouble for selling essentially pirated merchandise?

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[doug maverick]

I'm Just Saying Its Very Strange Tyhjat Theres No Copyright Signs Cause No Way Would That Get Passed The Legal Department In Any Liget Compnay Don't You Agree?

[dragonf1y]

Copyright is legaly implied automatically.

While including copyright information can help, it is not required.

All that is ever required if you have a dispute is proof that you are the originator of the material.

[doug maverick]

but i remeber thwey didn't put the trademark on a certain super hero. and he was stolen by marvel.

[yutyeesam]

Copyright is legaly implied automatically.

While including copyright information can help, it is not required.

All that is ever required if you have a dispute is proof that you are the originator of the material.

But let's say there's a public access TV station, and one of the producers wants to show one of these old school kung-fu movies from Ground Zero Entertainment. The station policy is that they cannot air copyrighted material.

This material doesn't say Copyright anywhere on it. Can it be aired?

There are all sorts of film makers and music video makers who make stuff but it's not copyrighted, and they are fair game to air. So airing these old Kung-Fu movies (with no copyrighted info) wouldn't be any different, would it?

[GeneChing]

There are a lot of pirate kung fu movie distributors. Due to the weird intricacies of international copyright law, especially with Asia, these can be very difficult to track down. I don't know enough about Ground Zero Entertainment to label them as a pirate, but the fact that there is no copyright is highly suspect. Pirates are bad because the people who get injured are not only the originators of the material, but also the purveyors. Stores such as HKflix can get into legal trouble and so can public access TV stations, if they are presenting pirated videos. I'd be surprised if HKflix is actually dealing with a pirate, since they are so large. MartialArtsMart.com (www.MartialArtsMart.com) carries only a fraction of the DVD catalog they carry and we get cease and desists about DVDs frequently. In our case, it's because we often sell Asian DVD releases; these aren't pirated at all, however, when some American distributor buys up the rights for the American release, they can shut down any American-based vendor of the Asian releases. Kung Fu Hustle (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=783354&postcount=87) was a typical example of this for us. When that happens, we get stuck holding the product. Same would happen if it were pirated, although sometimes these are ordered to be destroyed.

[yutyeesam]

How can we find out more info on Ground Zero Entertainment? They've definitely partnered with Wu Tang Clan on the release of some DVDs, and those indeed have copyright protection.

It's their independent features that don't mention anything about copyright.

It's interesting, I just found this on the Choy Lay Fut film starring Cliff Lok:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=product&id=1562743

And I bet it's the same movie as this:
http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.1911/qx/details.htm

With the former probably having been copyrighted, perhaps.

[jethro]

The first version of CLF you list is from Rarescope aka BCI. Rarescope is their rare kung fu movies line. BCi used to be named Brentwood Home Entertainment, and a lot of their releases were pirated. They have cleaned up their act and now put out legitimate releases. Their recent kung fu and samurai releases have done pretty well.

The second version of CLF you show is from Groundzero. They released it before Rarescope, and unlike the Rarescope version, it is not all the way widescreened and has imbedded subtitles from Germany or some other country.

Groundzero, Videoasia, Xenon, Treeline films, St. Clair Vision, Red Sun and Panmedia are all bootleg companies. There are countless bootleg companes, and not all are from the kung fu genre of course. Red Sun and Panmedia are the only ones around right now distributing kung fu and they are the same company. The person who runs the that bootleg shop is doing his very best to ruin any chances for legitimate releases of movies like Pedicab Driver and many others. There is also a rumour that Celestial won't be releasing the last 200 or so movies they have in their library. Why would they when they know that the pirate will just steal the print and sell it on his own? It costs a hell of a lot less to distribute movies when you don't have to remaster the picture and the audio tracks. The kung fu genre is the least of the cops worries when it comes to bootlegging. It is just sad.

[doug maverick]

i know people whpo have aired kung fu movies on tv shows on publkic acces without permission and notrhing happend to them. i don't know what to say except take your cchances and see what happens

[jethro]

i know people whpo have aired kung fu movies on tv shows on publkic acces without permission and notrhing happend to them. i don't know what to say except take your cchances and see what happens

There is certainly nobody that will stop you.

[yutyeesam]

There is also a rumour that Celestial won't be releasing the last 200 or so movies they have in their library. Why would they when they know that the pirate will just steal the print and sell it on his own? It costs a hell of a lot less to distribute movies when you don't have to remaster the picture and the audio tracks. The kung fu genre is the least of the cops worries when it comes to bootlegging. It is just sad.

Thanks for the info and perspective.

Any idea how these bootleggers steal the print in the first place? Do they just get a second or third generation copy?

The Choy Lay Fut movie from Ground Zero seemed like it was literally taped from some Arabic Television station! There was some Arabic TV logo at the bottom right corner of the screen, along with French and Arabic subtitles.

[godzillakungfu]

Thanks for the info and perspective.

Any idea how these bootleggers steal the print in the first place? Do they just get a second or third generation copy?

The Choy Lay Fut movie from Ground Zero seemed like it was literally taped from some Arabic Television station! There was some Arabic TV logo at the bottom right corner of the screen, along with French and Arabic subtitles.

Many people recorded straight off the TV in the early eighties. There is a huge trading subculture that became smaller when DVD's appeared. Many are straight from tv. If you look carefully you'll see the color line that appears when, a section is paused and restarted to edit commercials.

There are bootleggers that actually own the films themselves. When the bottom fell out of the Chop Socky flicks, people purchased many film reels for cheap prices.

Also, as you stated, they are second, third, and sometimes fourth generation tapes. Especially if it is a rare film.

[jethro]

Taped off the TV, and also camcorder jobs in the theaters. I don't see anythign wrong with that. Especially movies like 'To Kill a Mastermind' (a Shaw Brothers classic from Sun Chung). If nobody is going to remaster it, then nobody is going to stop you from bootlegging it. What is sad about Red Sun/Panmedia is that they steal Celestial's beautifully remastered print and sell it as their own. I wish the Weinstein's would do something about it since they are going to be releasing a lot of the movies that Red Sun has aleady released. Of course if they took the pirate to court they would end up losing money. They would have to do it just to make a point.

[Jimbo]

I should think that Dragon Dynasty/the Weinsteins should be able to release quite a lot of Celestial's excellent Shaw prints very successfully if they want to. Their distribution is very good; they get their product, including their Shaw releases, in lots more places than I've ever seen the Red Sun versions. Plus they can retail about the same, but are far better quality and have language options/special features, unlike Red Sun.

[jethro]

That is the thing though Jimbo. Let's just use Mad Monkey KF for instance. When the Weinsteins release that, it is going to have all the extras, the picture quality will be tops, the audio will sound cleaner than it ever has before, but what if someone sees the crappy Red Sun version sitting right next to DD's for 10 bucks less? People like you are me are smart and know that buying the legit release is the way to go because it is so far superior, but general fans will take the cheaper version. Dragon Dynasty should do fine though, even with the boots.

JUst on a side note, did you see that Shaolin Mantis trailer? Coolest thing ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98T-I1DWBeI

[kungpowmaster]

This is a problem not only in the martial arts genre. I also am a spaghetti western fan, and this also happens. There are also some independent fans that actually restore and fix up old rare movies, which is great. But, it seems anyone could just steal these and release them. I know people hate it, but I'm thinking the only way to really stop it is to make a small watermark type of thing on the screen.

Also, Celestial needs to always include an English dub. I prefer a dub. And they also need to price their DVDs comparitively along types like Red Sun/Bonzai etc. Because, truth is, if I see a dubbed version, and it even cheaper, but still has a nice widescreen print, I will get that one.

So really, the high-end release companies need to make their stuff the better choice, and that way, they will run off the piraters. Cuz no one will buy their stuff if it's not a better deal.

Some may think, "oh they will lose money", but that's what they are doing now, if people leave the Celestial on the shelf and pick up the Red Sun.

That's the only answer I can think of, unless these high-end companies can legally secure the TITLE rights, and then actually sue any other company that releases it. This can, and does happen. Godzilla/Toho is an axample, that has a contact with a DVD company for the US, and when some PD label released a Godzilla movie, they were stopped.

Chosen One

[jethro]

When Red Sun steals their transfer from Celestial, it doesn't look as good as Celestial's DVDs (Deltamac and IVL). And Red Sun DVDs have all types of problems with skipping and most of their DVDs stop working after a month or two. I can't think of a single reason to buy their POS DVDs. Always good to stick with the legit releases, especially since Red Sun does their best to ruin any legit releases. If nobody remastered these movies, he would have no one to steal from. The person who runs that company is one of the most heartless basterds on Earth. Once you check out a Dragon Dynasty release Kung Pow MAster, you will see there is no reason whatsoever to buy Red Sun DVDs. Unless you feel like wasting your money on a DVD that doesn't even work. Why you would want to do that, I don't know.

[Jimbo]

I would agree with Jethro.
All the Celestial Shaw Bros remasters being released by Dragon Dynasty (DD) have the English dub and original language options. Their quality is so much better than Red Sun; also, the Red Sun DVD I bought before I became aware of the problems (Instructors of Death, a.k.a., Martial Club) has an English dub, but with several "bleed-throughs" of Cantonese amidst the English dub. It claims to have both English dub and original language versions, but only has that English with Cantonese flaws. That does not happen with the DD versions. Not to mention that the DD Shaw releases retail about the same price as the Red Suns.

Now, I realize some of the Image/Celestial Shaw releases don't have an English dub option (in my collection includes Boxer's Omen, Heaven and Hell, and Water Margin). Possibly the first two weren't dubbed into English? And I think the dubbed version of Water Margin (Seven Blows of the Dragon) was heavily and poorly edited. Legendary Weapons of China did have an original English dub, and that's included on that release. I, for one, am glad that Image/Celestial and DD have enough respect for the movies that they (so far) haven't made new English dubs, like 20th Century-Fox did to most of their Golden Harvest releases.

[jethro]

LEgendary Weapons is the only one with English dub from Image. The only thing I don't like about the Image DVDs is that they NEVER include the original cantonese dub, it is always Mandarin. That is fine on the older Shaw movies, but not on the ones from 1978-79 and after. Luckily Dragon Dynasty is doing things right. The English dubs on the DD versions are about 1000 times better than red Sun. And Jimbo, did you see that Shaolin Mantis trailer on the 36th Chamber DVD?

[Jimbo]

Jethro:
Actually, that was one of the trailers I did not look at yet. I clicked a few of them than went to Gordon Liu's interview. I will check that out; after all, it's definitely one of David Chiang's best ever, if not his best of all time.

I also picked up Hard Boiled, also from DD. I'd seen it in the theater long ago, and had the VHS version, but I wanted all the extras, too. I also wanted to see the Phillip Kwok (Kuo Chui) interview. IMO, John Woo's second-best movie; I think his best is actually Last Hurrah for Chivalry.

I've always liked Hard Boiled. But my biggest gripe about it is the same gripe I have about Woo's Bullet in the Head. Both films start out great, but there is literally SO MUCH excess of shooting and explosions that any drama and excitement begins to evaporate after awhile. You become numb (a.k.a., overly-accustomed) to the violence. Besides that, the guns all seem to have a magically never-ending supply of bullets. They can shoot pistols about 50 times without a reload (do they reload in the film?). Those are some reasons that for me, I think Ringo Lam's Full Contact is a better Chow Yun-Fat film.

[jethro]

I kind of agree with you. I like HArdboiled a lot more than Bullet in the Head, but the story isn't as good as it should be. There is just too much focus on making the final shootout in the hospital the greatest shoutout ever. They could have really done something special with the story in Hardboiled, but Woo didn't achieve that, at least in my opinion he didn't. and shame about that streched image from DD. Notice how the guys look fatter becase of the bad job they did with the picture. I am sure the extras are great, but this is the only release from Dragon Dynasty that I am not interested in whatsoever. Until Dragon Heat (Dragon Squad) comes out that is. I will rip the sh!t out of that movie:D

[jethro]

And check out that shaolin mantis trailer ASAP!!