The Death of TMA

[Mas Judt]

A while back I was having dinner with another instructor. I had commented on how many things I had modified in my training in response to Bjj/NHB. While it does not change my method, there are some things that are commonly taught that are now irrelevant due to how they (easily) open you up to a counter. The guy just stared at me like I was a nut. From his perspective the art was 'perfected' by it's creator and he'd be a fool to change anything. I shifted topic, and explained how once I had modified a method from SPM to fight some Golden Gloves boxers. It worked great. It used SPM principles, just was not used how I was taught it. Then I covered Sun Tzu - you know, know your enemy, know yourself....

Nontheless he thought I was a fool, and I thought he was a tool.

This is why MOST TMA group are relegated to the same bus as the Society for Creative Anacronism and other re-enactors, versus the martial art bus.

Thoughts?

[The Xia]

Unfortunately, a lot of so-called TMA do not train in the way that their styles were intended to be. This seems to lead people to think that TMA is useless or needs to mimic MMA. However, real TMA trained the way it is intended doesn’t need to change. You mentioned SPM. That's something very rare. It's acquired by hand to hand transmission, and there isn't an enormous number of people that really have the hand.

[Water Dragon]

All I know is, Darwin naturally selected the Correct.

[Oso]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it. only idiots will think that what they are taught is supposed to be maintained as is w/o interpretation or interpolation with or against other methods.

this goes without saying in my book but I've never been taught to think that way by any teacher

[Christopher M]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it.

Right. If you look back at the history of the traditional chinese arts, the theme of adaptation is ubiquitous. Even in recent history we have, for example, yiquan incorporating principles from western boxing. Usually "because this is the way it's always been done" really means "I don't know what it's done this way", but the former markets a whole lot better.

[PangQuan]

What I find funny is how some people will assume that thier art is "complete", and that nothing needs to change. It must remain exactly as it was given to them.

Yet they do not realize that the art they were given was the accumulation of many peoples interpretations and personal insights and developments within their own personal studies. A constant state of evolution.

When I am taught something, anything really not just martial arts techniques and principles, the material or information becomes MINE. When you truly learn something that thing is engrained in your being. It becomes part of you. After much study and scrutiny this knowledge becomes very intimate.

Once someone has this intimacy in place they can clearly see what it is they have. The strengths as well as the weaknesses. At this point it is the duty of the practitioner to find faults and reinforce them if at all possible. This is a requirement in all studies to further the evolution and creation process of something that is truly alive.

The artistic process of development coupled with the keen eye of science and functionality is always in a continual state of flux. For each person walks a different path, each path will have different pit falls.

Two people cannot take the exact same material and apply it seamlessley to their own particualar, seperate paths. The material must be changed to accomidate the environment.

As water flows down the streams bed it must flow effortlessly by perfectly molding itself to its environment. Though two streams may hold the same glaciers water, their paths will vary greatly.

I've always believed this was a very basic and intermediate concept to all life offers. A requirement to understand if you will.

It seems though that there will always be those who choose not to open their eyes.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the preservationists have a place though. With out them really ancient styles would not still be with us.

[Water Dragon]

I think the preservationists have a place though. With out them really ancient styles would not still be with us.

Most definately. I love antique cars, but I wouldn't put a Model-T in Nascar. I think the problem is a lot of people have an apple but claim it's an orange.

[lkfmdc]

Most martial artists are indeed anacronists, though the sad thing is they don't realize it

People get dressed up like civil war soldiers and re-enact the battles for fun and for history, but they don't think that makes them a modern military force.

Methods of fighting with swords, shields, spears, lances, axes, etc. indeed had immediate relevance and utility to mankind for a great deal of our recorded history.

However, the relevance and meaning of martial arts training still changed as society evolved. Advances in warfare technology made many older battlefield methods either lessened in importance or completely obsolete. At the same time, increasingly urban lifestyles created a new need for both individual self defense and personal dueling methods.

The average Renaissance gentleman certainly had practical need of sword fighting techniques to defend himself and his honor in the urban life he led, but very little need for battlefield training with armor and lances.

Today, a student may similarly find utility in learning to defend against a knife attack but has absolutely no practical application for the sword fighting techniques the Renaissance gentleman may have used on many occasions.

This appears not only to be a logical but also an obvious conclusion, yet how many martial arts students in the modern world still devote time and energy to the mastery of such archaic weaponry?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed, however, fighting is fighting, and the human body has not changed at all since 200,000 years ago when our species first evolved. I really don't believe fighting has much either.

If anything what has happened is we got away from real fighting, and are now going back to basics. Even "Modern" conditioning is looking more, and more like Old Time strong man training.

Sometimes, if it ain't Broke, don't Fix it. What MMA has effectively done is gone back to a point before it was broken, when styles were defined by the groups of techniques seen during the fight instead of how many forms you knew.

[TenTigers]

not to mention, foil,epee and sabre. I'm just a freakin dinosaur.

[lkfmdc]

I really don't believe fighting has (changed) much either.



What you believe, pardon me, has very little to do with reality!

There was a time in the not so distant past when Americans believed that kicking was "unfair fighting" and you'd never see a kick in a street fight or brawl.... maybe you're just too young

Most TCMA feature inside trips, but now with people doing BJJ this is a very bad idea

The head butt is still relatively unusual in the US, in most of Europe it is an integral part of their brawling and fighting culture

back to kicking, unlikely an American will throw a kick at your head in the street, in Korea you see jumping kicks in street fights

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is nothing new under the sun here Ross. Every thing you described has been going on for 200,000 years, and much of it may even predate our species.

Just because things come in and out of vogue over time and varying geographies does not mean anything changes. It just means the same stuff that has ALWAYS been there is in the spotlite a bit more than it has been in recent memory.

[lkfmdc]

There is nothing new under the sun here Ross. Every thing you described has been going on for 200,000 years, and much of it may even predate our species.

Just because things come in and out of vogue over time and varying geographies does not mean anything changes. It just means the same stuff that has ALWAYS been there is in the spotlite a bit more than it has been in recent memory.

If you never get "Royal Dragon" back as a screen name, I can suggest an alternative, CLEOPATRA......

[Black Jack II]

may even predate our species.

??????????????:cool:

[1bad65]

To not change is stupid, if you want it to be effective. If you want to not change for the sake of the art itself, its one thing. But if you won't change because you feel one art is complete you are fooling yourself.

Look at the Gracies, in the early to mid 90s BJJ was the art winning most of the NHB/MMA fights. Well when other fighters incorporated the ground game into their arsenal, even the Gracies began to cross-train to stay competitive.

[Mas Judt]

Look at the gracies - the took Judo ne-waza and refined it for their kind of contest. It is a good example of taking the lessons taught and using them creatively in your environment.

'Martial Art' is the only 'art' I have seen where copying and not thinking is sometimes held as the highest standard. (This is of course true to only a sub set of the audience.)

The other major sin is the 'not invented here' syndrome that results in gaps...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To not change is stupid, if you want it to be effective

Reply]
Change for the sake of Change alone is not too bright either. If it ain't broke, Don't Fix it!

[1bad65]

Change for the sake of Change alone is not too bright either. If it ain't broke, Don't Fix it!


I think the early UFCs showed many styles were broke.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed....................

[SevenStar]

If anything what has happened is we got away from real fighting, and are now going back to basics. Even "Modern" conditioning is looking more, and more like Old Time strong man training.


It never got away from it. What happened was you guys (general public) didn't know about it because it wasn't in the public eye. college and high school sports programs have been training this way for years. When I played football, we weren't using machines and doing curls, we were benching, squatting, deading, doing cleans, etc. Now what I will say is that some of the more "eclectic" things, like picking up irregular shaped objects have been making a comeback since strongman competitions started gaining popularity, but they were never dead, just unseen by the majority. The majority has seen machines and bodybuilding over the years.

[David Jamieson]

The only constant is change.

If one can't be down with that, then they really don't have much in the way of kungfu. imho. :)

[Christopher M]

Researching and practicing methods from other periods and/or cultures doesn't make you an "anachronist." In every field of human activity, there is a necessary tension between the past, which represents a storehouse of perspectives and solutions, and the present, which represents the problems facing the contemporary culture. Scientists, artists, and philosophers all seriously study the history of their field for this reason. There's no reason to expect physical culture to be any different.

[Becca]

A while back I was having dinner with another instructor. I had commented on how many things I had modified in my training in response to Bjj/NHB. While it does not change my method, there are some things that are commonly taught that are now irrelevant due to how they (easily) open you up to a counter. The guy just stared at me like I was a nut. From his perspective the art was 'perfected' by it's creator and he'd be a fool to change anything. I shifted topic, and explained how once I had modified a method from SPM to fight some Golden Gloves boxers. It worked great. It used SPM principles, just was not used how I was taught it. Then I covered Sun Tzu - you know, know your enemy, know yourself....

Nontheless he thought I was a fool, and I thought he was a tool.

This is why MOST TMA group are relegated to the same bus as the Society for Creative Anacronism and other re-enactors, versus the martial art bus.

Thoughts?
I think most people who are "traditionalists", who are honest, will admit that they do not use thier techniques exactly the way they do them in a form. The form is an encyclapedia of how those who came before you fought. I beleive you are to learn the metrial and make it your own, but should still take care to pass on the original form in as pure a contex as possible. Just because it is the personal fighting style of someone long dead does not mean it has no merrit or that someone else may be able to beifit from some aspect of the form that you found useless.

[golden arhat]

??????????????:cool:

hahahh

lol

[golden arhat]

[QUOTE=Becca;784102]I think most people who are "traditionalists", who are honest, will admit that they do not use thier techniques exactly the way they do them in a form. The form is an encyclapedia of how those who came before you fought. I beleive you are to learn the metrial and make it your own, [QUOTE]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together

[DPL]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together

But a form does show you how to string applications together. Christopher M's post makes the most sense - it's just as much folly to ignore the cumulative, earned knowledge of the past as it is to blindly believe that the 'way of the ancients' cannot be improved. You have to strike a balance.

Studying set forms for new applications is an intensely rewarding experience, both in discovering hidden meanings or new applications you hadn't previously considered, and also in personalizing the form and maybe, hopefully, adding to the accumulated wisdom with your own interpretation.

[Becca]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together
Correct, a teacher does. Just as the form doesn't teach you to fight... The teacher does.


Your point was?

[The Xia]

Aren't you guys sick of TMA vs. MMA threads yet? :p
If you like what you are doing, and what you are doing works the way it's supposed to, what more can you ask for? What do you care what MMA does or doesn't do?

[Becca]

To not change is stupid, if you want it to be effective. If you want to not change for the sake of the art itself, its one thing. But if you won't change because you feel one art is complete you are fooling yourself...
I think the problem you have with people calling thier art "complete" is a case of either you misunderstanding them, or at some point, them misunderstanding the concept of a complete fighting system.

I was never, ever taught that to be complete was to be stagnet. Not in martial arts, not in work, not in family, and not in life.


complete definition

adj. com·plet·er, com·plet·est
1. Having all necessary or normal parts, components, or steps; entire: a complete meal.

At no point did I find "perfect" in the definition of complete. There fore a complete style of martial arts is not a "perfect" style, but rather a style that has all the necessary parts that the practitioner or founder thought was needed.

[Oso]

Right. If you look back at the history of the traditional chinese arts, the theme of adaptation is ubiquitous. Even in recent history we have, for example, yiquan incorporating principles from western boxing. Usually "because this is the way it's always been done" really means "I don't know what it's done this way", but the former markets a whole lot better.

sadly, that's true.

[rogue]

Whew, at least karate never ran into the stagnation problem.;)

[Black Jack II]

Rogue,

Look up my Daido Juku karate thread in the mma section rogue.

[golden arhat]

Correct, a teacher does. Just as the form doesn't teach you to fight... The teacher does.


Your point was?

but not with the form
just as u very rarely use big and long complicated words in regular conversation
or find urself in a situation where u would need them



as far as i'm concerned
TMA is useless and can die a horrible and obscure death somewhere for all i care

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Aren't you guys sick of TMA vs. MMA threads yet? :p
If you like what you are doing, and what you are doing works the way it's supposed to, what more can you ask for? What do you care what MMA does or doesn't do?

Considering you have started 20,000 out of the 20,001 threads on MMA vs. TMA, I can see why you are sick of it!:p

On a serious note, I have invented a new style called Super Trooper Dumb-A**-Ryu do, or for short STD. It is an invincible fighting art of bad mouthing forms, praising grappling, worshipping the anti-grapple, supporting anti-pugilism, making blanket statements about styles I know nothing about, wearing silk pajamas and waving a sword around that weighs more than I do, and last but not least, sporting a mullet with my chest stuck out and hitting on MILFs who come to my class while a pimply faced thirteen year old yellow belt teaches their stupid children. If anyone is thinking of stealing my idea, F**k off, I have a patent.

[David Jamieson]

My style is HTFU which is followed by STFU after or slightly before it's applied upside someones head. :p

[TenTigers]

I just want the part about the MILFS. My style has already been established-DILLIGAF.

[Becca]

but not with the form And an Engish teacher does not teach sentence structure with an encyclopedia...


just as u very rarely use big and long complicated words in regular conversation
or find urself in a situation where u would need them

Maybe a 16-year-old doesn't. I'm a junior purchasing agent; I use and abuse large words quite a bit. (thank goodness my e-mail program has spell check even if this one doesn't. ;) )

Another small data point: an encyclodedia is not a dictionary; it does not list words and their meanings. encyclodedias are reference books that list topics in alphabetical order...



as far as i'm concerned
TMA is useless and can die a horrible and obscure death somewhere for all i careThat's a good reason for you not to study it. Your oppinion is not a good reason for me not to study. Nor is a Completely mature statment like the one you just made enough to make be change my mind...:rolleyes:

[sunfist]

There were talented TCMA people back in the day, there are talented TCMA people now and there will be talented TCMA people in the coming generations. CMA is declining as a fad, but that leaves a core of dedicated people, and that is a good thing.

The only thing that is dying is the public reverence of the art, and 'i know kung fu' was never going to get you laid anyway, so who cares?

[rogue]

What makes someone a talented TCMA?:confused:

[Oso]

What makes someone a talented TCMA?:confused:

oh, you know, the usual:

levitation
flying
telekenisis
telepathy
translocation

;)

[rogue]

That's good to hear, I thought they might have changed the requirements. :D

[David Jamieson]

What makes someone a talented TCMA?:confused:

diligent effort, correct structure, correct principles, correct expression and I would imagine sundry other things.

same as what makes anyone talented at anything really.

But you know this. Just being acidic? lol :p

[TenTigers]

I recently was introduced to two very interesting gentlemen. One from Lung Ying Moor Kiu, the other from Wu Mei P'ai (from China, not related to Chau) both were hardcore fighters, veterans of many fights,challenges, some with blades, and had scars to prove it. (Both btw very soft-spoken and low key, and very open and generous with their teaching. No egos.) Both come from very traditional CMA, and practiced forms, and still teach them and value them as an important learning tool. But hey, wtf do they know?

[John Takeshi]

The only thing that is dying is the public reverence of the art, and 'i know kung fu' was never going to get you laid anyway, so who cares?

Try ninjitsu. It's a whole other world, mate.

[Anthony]

A thread like this makes me wonder how relevant martial arts (hand to hand combat) is in our society at all.

I mean, how often (after grade school) do you really exchange fisti-cuffs with someone in your everyday life? Hardly ever. And if it does happen, you most likely put yourself in that situation.

If any ancient fighting art was truly evolving it would become a sport entirely. There would be no arguments. You compete, you either win or loose.....end of discussion.

[golden arhat]

What makes someone a talented TCMA?:confused:

he has to be making a lot of money from teaching BS to many many ppl

[rogue]

A thread like this makes me wonder how relevant martial arts (hand to hand combat) is in our society at all.

I mean, how often (after grade school) do you really exchange fisti-cuffs with someone in your everyday life? Hardly ever. And if it does happen, you most likely put yourself in that situation.

If any ancient fighting art was truly evolving it would become a sport entirely. There would be no arguments. You compete, you either win or loose.....end of discussion.

What part of My Little Pony Land do you live in? Sport is great, but it's not the final outcome of any evolutionary process.

[Christopher M]

A thread like this makes me wonder how relevant martial arts (hand to hand combat) is in our society at all.

Practicing martial arts makes you healthy, brings you together with new friends, gives you enjoyment, reconnects you with your body and the physical world (very important for office workers, academics, etc., which make up much of our workforce), and helps you participate in our cultural heritage.

That's about as relevant as you can get.

[sunfist]

he has to be making a lot of money from teaching BS to many many ppl

If thats your idea of success, then i suppose your training in wushu makes sense:p


A thread like this makes me wonder how relevant martial arts (hand to hand combat) is in our society at all.

While any sort of combative skill is obviously only an emergency measure for the average person, id say that of those skills hand to hand combat still does retain a very important place. A gun or knife should only be drawn when the situation clearly demands the use of absolute force, leaving a massive grey area to be covered by unarmed combat. It may be a nessicary step towards aquiring or drawing a weapon. It also arguable requires much longer to gain true proficiency in, and so needs extra attention.

[David Jamieson]

A thread like this makes me wonder how relevant martial arts (hand to hand combat) is in our society at all.

I mean, how often (after grade school) do you really exchange fisti-cuffs with someone in your everyday life? Hardly ever. And if it does happen, you most likely put yourself in that situation.

If any ancient fighting art was truly evolving it would become a sport entirely. There would be no arguments. You compete, you either win or loose.....end of discussion.

Sometimes you don't put yourself into anything but you just happen to live in a socio-economic segment of society that has a different texture to that of which you apparently have become accustomed too.

I didn't live in any sort of a sedate loving and happy community until I was almost 30 yeasr old. The rest was tied up in middle impoverishment and a lot of people around me were let's say "entrepreneurial" in their approach to living. There was lots of conflict and plenty of physical violence.

Nowadays, I enjoy a more sedentary life in a relatively quiet setting where the people are better off financially and educationally.

But After reading this, I'm afraid I would agree with rogue on his assessment of your world view. You gotta get out in the world more. :)

[BlueTravesty]

Just as there are people of the mindset "I don't ARGH! want to learn a buncha RAWR! goofy forms and UGH! philosophical crap. I just wanna take someone's GROWL!!! face and bash it into floor! Awoooooooo!" (This isn't the majority of MMA school attitudes, but there are way more than there should be.)

There will also be people whose outlook is more like "Sweet, I wanna do moves like in that movie I saw. WATAAAH! Those pajamas are cool!" This is the majority of TMA schools.

At the same time, there are people of the mindset "I don't want someone telling me I can stop a grappler with eye gouging, but at the same time, it's called Martial ARTS; I don't mind doing something besides learning how to hurt people. Besides, I left all the chest pounding and ego-stroking behind when I got out of Junior High." This is the extreme minority of TMA schools. They won't teach you to beat someone who fights professionally day in and day out, every day, but they will help you handle yourself when some insecure twit takes a swing at you for "lookin at his woman." And every once in a while you can actually do something besides learning creative ways to punch an opponent you just took down in the face as they're begging for mercy :rolleyes:

[WanderingMonk]

Most TCMA feature inside trips, but now with people doing BJJ this is a very bad idea


because I have zero ground fighting knowledge, would you elaborate a bit on why the inside trips get one kill against a bjj guy?

[LeeCasebolt]

because I have zero ground fighting knowledge, would you elaborate a bit on why the inside trips get one kill against a bjj guy?

Inside trips, as a rule, land you directly in the BJJer's guard. If you have zero ground fighting knowledge, not a good place to be.

[Knifefighter]

Even worse are the step behind takedowns favored by Hung Ga... straight into a knee bar.

[WanderingMonk]

appreciate the wisdom

[Becca]

Even worse are the step behind takedowns favored by Hung Ga... straight into a knee bar. You know, I used to give you just a bit of credit when you said drivle like this... Then I took your advise and found a good, proper grappling teacher. Now I know it's baised drivel. :rolleyes:

A "step behind take down" is called a sweep. And I have been taught 4 different ways to do them from a wrestler's point of veiw. And all 4 have a mirror in TCMA. This tells me that a TCMA guy getting knee bared with that move is like a grappler getting knee bared: It's a lack of experiance, not a style thing.:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

Knifefighter - I'm not that familiar with Hung Ga, care to elaborate? Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

I assure you that Knifefighter is even less familiar with Hung Ga than you are. :p

[Knifefighter]

You know, I used to give you just a bit of credit when you said drivle like this... Then I took your advise and found a good, proper grappling teacher. Now I know it's baised drivel. :rolleyes:

A "step behind take down" is called a sweep. And I have been taught 4 different ways to do them from a wrestler's point of veiw. And all 4 have a mirror in TCMA. This tells me that a TCMA guy getting knee bared with that move is like a grappler getting knee bared: It's a lack of experiance, not a style thing.:rolleyes:

LOL... In MMA, wrestling and BJJ we call it a takedown.

And good luck the first time you step between a sub-grapplers legs from behind.

[1bad65]

In MMA, wrestling and BJJ we call it a takedown.

And if you haven't been shown why you don't want to step between someone's legs from behind, you need a better sub-grappling coach.

Knifefighter is correct.

You guys do know his credentials, right?

[Water Dragon]

because I have zero ground fighting knowledge, would you elaborate a bit on why the inside trips get one kill against a bjj guy?

O Uchi Gari is an inside trip. A good O Uchi man will destroy you with the throw. That being said, I can't do O Uchi for jack, which make me happy that I know how to pass guard.

There are no absolutes. If I do O Uchi, I'm getting put in a guard. A specialist will turn yo @ss into a pancake though.

[Water Dragon]

Even worse are the step behind takedowns favored by Hung Ga... straight into a knee bar.

What are they doing? I don't think I've seen that one.

[lkfmdc]

Knifefighter,

I did Hung Ga for a good number of years, yet I am not sure what technique you are referring to?

The most recognizable sweep in Hung Ga is basicly and O-Soto Gari, no throw is perfect but O-Soto is pretty standard and high percentage.....

Just curious which technique you are referring to?

[Becca]

LOL... In MMA, wrestling and BJJ we call it a takedown. Yes. And in a stand-up art, it is called a sweep. Your point is?


And good luck the first time you step between a sub-grapplers legs from behind.Now, if I was BEHIND them, I'd be using a choke to take them down, not a sweep.:rolleyes:

[Becca]

Knifefighter is correct.

You guys do know his credentials, right?Yep, I do. I will bow to his expertese on grappling every time. That does not make his oppinions gosple, though. And is oppinions on anything stand-up of TCMA related are very heavliy coated in bull ooky.

[1bad65]

Yep, I do. I will bow to his expertese on grappling every time. That does not make his oppinions gosple, though. And is oppinions on anything stand-up of TCMA related are very heavliy coated in bull ooky.

TCMA or not, the discussion is on takedowns, not on standup as in striking. He is right on this one. Even cops are taught not to put one of their legs between someone's legs they are frisking because the guy could reach down and grab it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What about crashing through by going between thier legs? How would they have *Time* to counter that?

[Becca]

TCMA or not, the discussion is on takedowns, not on standup as in striking. He is right on this one. Even cops are taught not to put one of their legs between someone's legs they are frisking because the guy could reach down and grab it.No kidding. But he *also* said he was talking about a Hung Ga "rear take down" (sweep), which is stand up. The way he was describing it made it obvious he was probably descibing a failed attemp he might have once seen, not a technique done properly. If he knew as much about Hung Ga as he thinks he does, he would not have a) called it a take down and b) would have noted that a failed rear sweep can get you knee bared.:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

why do you guys even try anymore? :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Because we are argumentative, and this is a better outlet than debating politics with people we know in real life. :D

[Becca]

Because we are argumentative, and this is a better outlet than debating politics with people we know in real life. :D
Ditto. My co-workers go crying to the boss when I start arguments over semantics with them. :rolleyes::D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What Wusses!!! :D

[PangQuan]

http://infowars.com/articles/bb/dna_db_person_added_to_db_every_45_seconds.htm

discuss this. its freaky. just wait till its our turn:(

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is one reason why I want to move out to the country......like WAY out, to where the cops are still driving 1970 Ford Galaxies.

[PangQuan]

have you watched this yet?

if not, give it a whirl, but watch it from beginning to end.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983

[Becca]

have you watched this yet?

if not, give it a whirl, but watch it from beginning to end.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983
Dude! That's 2 hours long! I'm not going to watch that without a little background first...

[msg]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it. only idiots will think that what they are taught is supposed to be maintained as is w/o interpretation or interpolation with or against other methods.

this goes without saying in my book but I've never been taught to think that way by any teacher

i think the ma that should stay the same is the internal arts .if you changed them you would not retain any benefits thats why they are complete

[PangQuan]

Dude! That's 2 hours long! I'm not going to watch that without a little background first...

Its about the Bohemian Grove. And how our current presedent is an attendee, and what its about, and how it goes way back to some old school crazy acult stuff.

if you are one of those "there is more than they are telling us" or "whats really going on" kind of people. this will facinate and intrigue you.

:p

[PangQuan]

its an elite club, permitting only men, from all parts of the world. Nixon, Regan....there are shots of those two sitting next to each other having a grand ol time at the bohemian grove.

when did you ever see nixon or regan together beeing chummy in the press?

[Becca]

Hmmm. I might actually watch that. Then maybe I'll understand my mother's side of the family a bit better. Might be good fodder to get my Dad to leave me alone, too. (I still have no idea how my parents stayed together as long as they did...)

I personally do not get too upity about politial "he-said/she-said". I study the canidaates, I vote, then I sit back and see if the person who won does well. Of course, comming from a family that goes to war every time the president is brought up, maybe I just don't want to hear it any more...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have had 22 minutes of it on so far. At this point it looks like a New World order/Tri lateral commission/Free Masons Secret world government conspiracy version of Blair Witch Project.

[Becca]

Ooooo... much better synopsis. Now that actually makes me want to watch it. Didn't you say you were in advertizing?:cool:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Me advertising?LOL, no. I trade Futures, and run a small independent insurance appraisal company.

[SifuAbel]

Worshiping Baal.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yeah, God forbid we worship a Giant Owl.....

[SifuAbel]

So much for the christian right.

[PangQuan]

LOL

isnt it some weird stuff. now just wait for the human sacrafice...

the screem doesnt sound fake to me! :eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, I have now seen 48 minutes of it...they are at the part of Blair Witch project where they are interviewing the locals.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Here is a sat photo

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=internal&addtohistory=&latitude=U6F1%2fhLnHaxDpHVtw91HVw%3d%3d&longitude=Ry6X8oMn19It8xsar7p3vQ%3d%3d&name=Bohemian%20Grove&country=US&address=20601%20Bohemian%20Ave&city=Monte%20Rio&state=CA&zipcode=95462&phone=707%2d865%2d2311&spurl=0&&q=BOHEMIAN%20GROVE&qc=Clubs

[Black Jack II]

LOL, the Grove is just a very old rich boys club, don't make a fire where there is none.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

But Fire is good, it warms my bones!!

[PangQuan]

Here is a sat photo

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=internal&addtohistory=&latitude=U6F1%2fhLnHaxDpHVtw91HVw%3d%3d&longitude=Ry6X8oMn19It8xsar7p3vQ%3d%3d&name=Bohemian%20Grove&country=US&address=20601%20Bohemian%20Ave&city=Monte%20Rio&state=CA&zipcode=95462&phone=707%2d865%2d2311&spurl=0&&q=BOHEMIAN%20GROVE&qc=Clubs

lol you're all about google earth and SAT photo's arent ya?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It makes me feel special! :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Here is Area 51

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&country=US&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&addtohistory=&cat=Groom+Lake&address=&city=&state=NV&zipcode=

You will notice that it is right next to Area 52.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well gents, I would love to keep talking, but I am now on my way to aquire possession of the Disk.

















Literally, a friend has a bootlegged CD for me!!

[Black Jack II]

Use Google Earth, it will actually show you Area 51 in detail.

[1bad65]

Alex Jones lives in Austin, he used to(and may still) have a TV show on cable access.

[rogue]

Use Google Earth, it will actually show you Area 51 in detail.

Not much there anymore, but it keeps the kooks occupied.

[Black Jack II]

Not much there anymore, but it keeps the kooks occupied.

That is what I have heard as well, though it seems that they just built a very large new hanger on the base, biggest so far at the site.

I think that is where the grey aliens have there orgy parties with the reptialians.......;)

[DPL]

So, if I read this thread correctly, you guys are suggesting that the Bohemian Grove, the gray aliens, and the reptilians have conspired to bring about the death of TMA?

Dam, I knew Dana White looked like that dude from Men In Black who turns into the giant c0ckroach.

And evidently c0ckroach is a bad word...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ur right, Google Earth is better. I have it on my desktop...unfortunately, I am on my laptop now.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, if I read this thread correctly, you guys are suggesting that the Bohemian Grove, the gray aliens, and the reptilians have conspired to bring about the death of TMA?

Reply]
Yes, that is exactly what happened. They will get you too if you do not take precautions. For example, did you know you can deflect thier mind probe by surrounding your cranium in aluminum foil?

[DPL]

So, if I read this thread correctly, you guys are suggesting that the Bohemian Grove, the gray aliens, and the reptilians have conspired to bring about the death of TMA?

Reply]
Yes, that is exactly what happened. They will get you too if you do not take precautions. For example, did you know you can deflect thier mind probe by surrounding your cranium in aluminum foil?

Should I shape the aluminum foil in the form of a Chairman Mao hat, or would a chinese peasant hat perform better in blocking these frightening intrusions?

[BlueTravesty]

yeah, I tried the tinfoil thing for a while. It helped to deflect the greys' mind-beams, but aluminum helps keep out the malevolent spirits sent by Xenu much better. I suggest wearing both.

Also, don't forget to microwave your clothing. It zaps the tracking devices that are required by law to be inserted in every pair of non-brand name clothing. The trick is to put a glass of water in the microwave. Make sure you put it in for NO LONGER than 16.897 seconds. If it goes a fraction of a second more or less, you will have robo-nazis on your doorstep faster than you can say "Oliver North." :D:eek::)
(I love listening to Coast to Coast AM... it's like an audio trainwreck)

[rogue]

Please note my avatar.

I'm working on a tin-foil condom because I think Mrs. Rogue is an alien replacant.

[Mas Judt]

I think that is where the grey aliens have there orgy parties with the reptialians......

Shows what you know. Greys only have s@x with themselves. Alone.

Where do you get this crazy stuff?

[David Jamieson]

Please note my avatar.

I'm working on a tin-foil condom because I think Mrs. Rogue is an alien replacant.

you bastige! Right after I read grey/alien orgies reference, I immediately thought about tin foil condoms.

get outta my head rogue!

[Black Jack II]

Where do you get this crazy stuff?

My great uncle Elric Von Lickdanstien was one of only a few scientist's to escape with his life from a government black op project where his group went back in time to fight SS Nazi stormtroppers who were trying to harness the ability to control cybernetic enchanced dinosaurs.

He passed on the knowledge of the greys and there far out orgy parties, that and so much more, even now I get the shakes thinking about what could of happened if those cybernetic cold blooded killing machines had gotten through the stargate.

Kungfu or MacDonalds may never had even been invented.:(

[David Jamieson]

Also, please refer to the Owl by his true name of Malloch.

or be struck down! :D

[rogue]

My great uncle Elric Von Lickdanstien was one of only a few scientist's to escape with his life from a government black op project where his group went back in time to fight SS Nazi stormtroppers who were trying to harness the ability to control cybernetic enchanced dinosaurs.

He passed on the knowledge of the greys and there far out orgy parties, that and so much more, even now I get the shakes thinking about what could of happened if those cybernetic cold blooded killing machines had gotten through the stargate.

Kungfu or MacDonalds may never had even been invented.:(

Great nephew, I am Elric Von Lickdanstien who went forward in time.

[Black Jack II]

Great nephew, I am Elric Von Lickdanstien who went forward in time.

I knew the rumours were true, now the world shall tremble, and women shall swoon!!

[BlueTravesty]

Please note my avatar.

I'm working on a tin-foil condom because I think Mrs. Rogue is an alien replacant.

Interesting... perhaps I should try it as well. I always wondered why it feels like it has a mind of its own sometimes