Brian Grey

[Kung_Fu_King]

What do you know about him?

[PangQuan]

What do you know about him?

http://www.greyorthodontics.com/

this one? :eek:

[lkfmdc]

I hear, unsubstantiated of course, that not only is his palm iron, it is hairy as well :eek:

[boshea]

What do you know about him?

He is an Iron Palm practitioner who was accused of sexually abusing one of his students several years ago. He was found innocent (the accusations were made by an ex-lover... gotta watch out for those), but his reputation was ruined by the incident and I believe his school is now closed. The whole sordid affair was covered in various threads on the bullshido.net forums. Search there for more details. A lot of people who trash talked him there took back what they said in light of his innocence.

Outside of his personal life, there are varying opinions about his self-proclaimed title "Father of Iron Palm in America." I have no first-hand knowledge of him though (apart from seeing him at the Shaolin Temple International Festival in 2001, of all places), so I can't speak to that. He has a web site (http://www.briangray.com/), sells Iron Palm books, etc.

[stonewarrior67]

his iron palm is as fake as his hairpiece. stay away from that doof.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What is fake about it? I have his book, and his method is basically to hit bags of hard movable medium...same as ANY OTHER Iron Palm system I have ever seen. How is it fake?

[stonewarrior67]

brain grey couldn't break wind

[boshea]

brain grey couldn't break wind

I'm not disputing what you're saying here because I have no information about the guy's skills. But if you're going to say stuff like that about somebody on a web forum, generally it is more believable if you back up your statements with some concrete details. Have you seen the guy demonstrate his Iron Palm technique? What was weak about it? Just curious.

[gwa sow]

i've read one of his books. not that much different from what i saw on wing lams video. pretty much standard to what i've seen around for ip training. i've never seen the guy perform in person and know nothing about him except from what i've read. but for some reason this keeps popping into my head "his iron palm is as fake as his hairpiece":p

[boshea]

i've read one of his books. not that much different from what i saw on wing lams video. pretty much standard to what i've seen around for ip training. i've never seen the guy perform in person and know nothing about him except from what i've read. but for some reason this keeps popping into my head "his iron palm is as fake as his hairpiece":p

I'm not defending the guy, but I'm curious any time anybody says that someone else is a fake without backing up their statements with concrete reasons. What is it about this guy that rings "fake" to so many people? I'll admit that he seems a bit goofy, with the toupe, the cheesy poses on his web site, and wearing a gi when he is a TCMA practitioner. But does anyone have any real information about him being a fake?

[TenTigers]

"His iron palm is as fake as his hairpiece"

well, I have seen him, and I can say without any hesitation that his hairpiece is certainly not fake. It was definately a real hairpiece. You could spot it a mile away.
Besides, what exactly would be a fake hairpiece? Probably those rubber geisha wigs they put on you in Japanese Resteraunts when it's your birthday...well, it was definately not rubber, and it looked quite like it was made of real hair.
If they refer to vinyl imitation leather as "pleather,"
would imitation hair be "plair?"

[stonewarrior67]

ten tigers, that was too funny and whomever said hairy palm you're a hoot too! Listen, anyone on this board can write a book about being this or that and some of the information might even be correct. But when you claim to be this or that you'd probably better back it up with something. Say for instance you claim to be the father of iron palm in america, you might want to show your capabilities on say...i dunno...breaking something? what did he ever break to show his training? one patio block? two? like i said, the man couldn't break wind and if he did you'd see spacers fly out everywhere.

inside kung fu magazine 1988...i think it was february? Gene Chicoine was on the front cover breaking three blocks standing upright with an open hand chop. if i remember right in his article there was a pic of him powering through 8 blocks (no spacers) with a slap of the hand. That was iron palm!!! lets see brian grey break one upright block anyway he chooses and i betcha the block falls over or he injures himself.

who's gonna be the first kid on the forum to own their very own official brian grey iron palm t-shirt ?

[boshea]

ten tigers, that was too funny and whomever said hairy palm you're a hoot too! Listen, anyone on this board can write a book about being this or that and some of the information might even be correct. But when you claim to be this or that you'd probably better back it up with something. Say for instance you claim to be the father of iron palm in america, you might want to show your capabilities on say...i dunno...breaking something? what did he ever break to show his training? one patio block? two? like i said, the man couldn't break wind and if he did you'd see spacers fly out everywhere.

who's gonna be the first kid on the forum to own their very own official brian grey iron palm t-shirt ?

So you've seen him break before? Like I said, I'm not defending the guy. I'm just saying, if you have details to back up what you said, I want to hear 'em. I just don't like to hear people say "this or that guy sucks" without providing a reason. I don't care who you're talking about (and I have no particular interest in Iron Palm or Brian Gray).

As far as the T-shirt goes, I think it's all you man.

[stonewarrior67]

i edited my last post...

[Akronviper]

All I know is that his "Advanced Iron Palm Book" was a waste of money. So Brian Grey you owe me $14.00.:mad:

[boshea]

All I know is that his "Advanced Iron Palm Book" was a waste of money. So Brian Grey you owe me $14.00.:mad:

Did you buy that book based only on the description of it on his web site?

[stonewarrior67]

All I know is that his "Advanced Iron Palm Book" was a waste of money. So Brian Grey you owe me $14.00.:mad:

no official brain grey iron palm t shirt for akron viper !!!!!

[Akronviper]

Did you buy that book based only on the description of it on his web site?

Just searching E-bay and thought I know Iron Palm, so the advanced is for me. 5 minutes to look through and all I got from it was some very ****ty "Iron Palm Fighting Techniques". I havent seen him break and his Iron Palm applications suck, so I will not get the t-shirt but will say as bad as Lacy is least i've seen him break something.

[stonewarrior67]

You have got a point Akron Viper at least Lacey puts something on the table. In fact just check out you tube and do search for iron palm and you'll see young guys break a patio block with their palm...does that mean that they are masters like Grey since they can preform the same as he?

[Crushing Step]

TTT

For Dale or any other iron palm practitioners, I'm not sure if we had a definite consensus as to weather or not Brian Gray's iron palm as good.

I can say I detest titles like "Grandmaster" but anyway.

http://www.briangray.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems that, outside of actually fighting some one and getting hit with their "iron palm" the only verifiable way to see if their IP training is vaild is to see them break.
There is no reason for someone with IP training not to break for demo purposes, heck I've done it.
As for his "jow", never tried it so I can't comment on that.

[IronWeasel]

it is more believable if you back up your statements with some concrete details.




Lol @ concrete details!!

Get it?!?!?

:D

[Crushing Step]

I am skeptical of breaking, just because I know it can be faked. No offense to people who literally train hard and condition their bodies, but just look at the "shaolin monks". Right.

Secondary question about Mr Gray I guess, is that if he does a kung fu style, or to him is the iron palm enough? His website only talks about iron palm, including even an iron palm form. It was my understanding that iron palm was a discipline within many style of kung fu, and not it's own thing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am skeptical of breaking, just because I know it can be faked. No offense to people who literally train hard and condition their bodies, but just look at the "shaolin monks". Right.

Secondary question about Mr Gray I guess, is that if he does a kung fu style, or to him is the iron palm enough? His website only talks about iron palm, including even an iron palm form. It was my understanding that iron palm was a discipline within many style of kung fu, and not it's own thing?

His website shows instructions of something called shaolin san and IP is a form of hand conditoning, forging if you will, it is not a fight form or MA style, its not even a sub-system as such.

[SimonM]

Shaolin Three?

[Crushing Step]

His website shows instructions of something called shaolin san

I missed that, thanks.


IP is a form of hand conditoning, forging if you will, it is not a fight form or MA style, its not even a sub-system as such.

That's what I thought, though looking at his site he really pushes the iron palm. From a quick look, it seems like it is portrayed as his martial art, which I thought was odd. When someone says they are a "grandmaster", it normally is attached directly to a style and lineage.

[bakxierboxer]

Shaolin Three?

It could also be "free"... as in "San Da", which most folks take as meaning "free-form hitting".
OTOH, there are some who will claim that its' meaning is a bit more like "free" as in "salt-free" or "fat-free"... which could mean "formless hitting" or something "even less complimentary".

So.... possibly "Shaolin Free"... or having no discernible content originating at/from Shaolin?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shaolin Three?

Stooges?
:D

[Crushing Step]

It could also be "free"... as in "San Da", which most folks take as meaning "free-form hitting".
OTOH, there are some who will claim that its' meaning is a bit more like "free" as in "salt-free" or "fat-free"... which could mean "formless hitting" or something "even less complimentary".

So.... possibly "Shaolin Free"... or having no discernible content originating at/from Shaolin?

He got you....

"san" is "three" in Japanese!

[SimonM]

And in chinese.

[Crushing Step]

And in chinese.

Well I'm pwned now I guess, can't say I can count to 10 in Chinese!

[SimonM]

I can, in theory, count to any number in Chinese. It gets a bit complicated after you hit 10000.

(When you begin doing business in China with Chinese people the ability to discuss numbers in Chinese becomes EXCEPTIONALLY important.) ;)

[bakxierboxer]

DRAT!
Looks like I'm gonna have to fall back on the Kung Fu Magazine Glossary:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/glossary.php#S

"San Da (San Da): Free sparring. Lit. "loose hit""
"San Shou (San Sao): Free sparring. Lit. "loose hand""

[sanjuro_ronin]

People, people, this is Brian Gray we are talking about, San in his system probably refers to some shady pyramid scheme or a type of iron crotch training.

[SimonM]

Or maybe it's anguished spanese (spanish / chinese) - for the shaolin saint.

[bakxierboxer]

People, people, this is Brian Gray we are talking about, San in his system probably refers to some shady pyramid scheme or a type of iron crotch training.

Going from the KFM glossary, that'd be "free/loose Shaolin" or "free/loose crotch"?
If it was a "loose crotch" and it began to show too many wrinkles, THEN you could "iron it".
(your choice, of course)

[Eddie]

Perhaps he is using the term Shaolin as an ‘umbrella’伞 that covers multiple styles???

[X_plosion]

FWIW, Mr. Gray wrote in Inside Kung Fu Magazine that "Shaolin San" is (was?) the name he gave to his school because he wanted it to carry on the traditions of the 2 Shaolin Temples. His school was "...going to be number three", because at the time he opened it, he supposedly didn't know if the north and south temples still existed. So then, he was going to carry on the legacy.

I don't have any knowledge of his lineage or where he got his Iron Palm Liniment formula from, nor do I have any opinion on the matter. Just putting this here for information purposes.

[SimonM]

So, apparently I was right!

That's funny...

and pathetic.

Has anyone found any actual documented evidence of the southern temple yet?

[hungheikwan]

After reading the many posts regarding Brian Gray, I'm obliged to shed some light on his Iron Palm and Shao Lin San school.

For thirty years, Master Gray has taught kung fu in Delaware, Florida, and Pennsylvania. The Shao Lin system contains Longfist, Tiger, Mantis, Crane and many weapons forms. His Iron Palm technique is genuine - no spacers. He holds a conference every year which attracts those interested in martial arts as well as those who aren't. ( You can see one of those students, Damien Fe****o, on Youtube demonstrating the breaking techniques he learned from Master Gray. )

What are his credentials and lineage? He never told me and I NEVER ASKED. I'm not concerned with lineage; I just want to practice Kung Fu. The forms I learned from Shao Lin San have allowed me to explore CMA beyond the boundaries of tradition: my path has put me in contact with "bonafides" like C.C. Chen, Tony Yang, Leung Shum, Nick Scrima, Li Deyeng, and many others. None of them had any problems with my kung fu.

For several years now, I've read this forum. I know many of you by your threads and posts, but beyond that I don't know your skill levels or abilities. Some of you seem to have good knowledge and are willing to share. Others of you merely exist to blow off other stylists. In any event, it's easy to speak ill of someone you don't know, but that doesn't make you a better person for it. I can tell you that Master Gray lives life as he sees it, and doesn't seek to exploit others.

Master Gray is currently in semi-retirement. He still teaches Iron Palm, but the Shao Lin San school is not active. It has, however, evolved here in Florida under the direction of Shr Fu Ross Kellin, who has taken the curriculum and added his knowledge of Shuia Jiao and BJJ to the mix to create a stronger course of kung fu instruction.

You can play the "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" card 'till your hand falls off.
It is because of Master Brian Gray that CMA came into my life and I am grateful to him for it.

[TenTigers]

out of curiousity, could you list the names of the forms you learned from Sifu Gray?

[sanjuro_ronin]

After reading the many posts regarding Brian Gray, I'm obliged to shed some light on his Iron Palm and Shao Lin San school.

For thirty years, Master Gray has taught kung fu in Delaware, Florida, and Pennsylvania. The Shao Lin system contains Longfist, Tiger, Mantis, Crane and many weapons forms. His Iron Palm technique is genuine - no spacers. He holds a conference every year which attracts those interested in martial arts as well as those who aren't. ( You can see one of those students, Damien Fe****o, on Youtube demonstrating the breaking techniques he learned from Master Gray. )

What are his credentials and lineage? He never told me and I NEVER ASKED. I'm not concerned with lineage; I just want to practice Kung Fu. The forms I learned from Shao Lin San have allowed me to explore CMA beyond the boundaries of tradition: my path has put me in contact with "bonafides" like C.C. Chen, Tony Yang, Leung Shum, Nick Scrima, Li Deyeng, and many others. None of them had any problems with my kung fu.

For several years now, I've read this forum. I know many of you by your threads and posts, but beyond that I don't know your skill levels or abilities. Some of you seem to have good knowledge and are willing to share. Others of you merely exist to blow off other stylists. In any event, it's easy to speak ill of someone you don't know, but that doesn't make you a better person for it. I can tell you that Master Gray lives life as he sees it, and doesn't seek to exploit others.

Master Gray is currently in semi-retirement. He still teaches Iron Palm, but the Shao Lin San school is not active. It has, however, evolved here in Florida under the direction of Shr Fu Ross Kellin, who has taken the curriculum and added his knowledge of Shuia Jiao and BJJ to the mix to create a stronger course of kung fu instruction.

You can play the "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" card 'till your hand falls off.
It is because of Master Brian Gray that CMA came into my life and I am grateful to him for it.

Very good post and well said.

[stonewarrior67]

so you learned from "the father of iron palm in america"...great....shut me up and post a youtube video of you breaking 6 patio blocks, no spacers, not baked, no fault lines cut into them, no towel to protect your "iron hand". just a clean break.

if not 6 then 5, if not 5 then 4, going down to three would be honorable. if you do that then you'll have shown more than baldy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so you learned from "the father of iron palm in america"...great....shut me up and post a youtube video of you breaking 6 patio blocks, no spacers, not baked, no fault lines cut into them, no towel to protect your "iron hand". just a clean break.

if not 6 then 5, if not 5 then 4, going down to three would be honorable. if you do that then you'll have shown more than baldy.

You know, when I first started IP, I was told no towel by some and towel by others.
I never used a towel because I thought it was weak.
Then I cut up my thumb knuckle on the aggregate of a patio block while breaking it and had back off from training.
Dale Dugas, who was invaluable in his advice as always, suggested a thin little hand towel or wash cloth, not thich, just like a dish cloth really and I have never cut myself since.

[AJM]

I grew up less than a mile from Brian. His brother used to work for me. I can assure you he is a complete charletan with almost no skills. He's one of those blowhards that likes to make death threats and not show up. If he had any formal trainig at all it was as a very young child. Most likely he used comic books as training manuals. He used to do the tear the phone book thing to impress kids. I figured that trick out in less than two days.

[stonewarrior67]

You know, when I first started IP, I was told no towel by some and towel by others.
I never used a towel because I thought it was weak.
Then I cut up my thumb knuckle on the aggregate of a patio block while breaking it and had back off from training.
Dale Dugas, who was invaluable in his advice as always, suggested a thin little hand towel or wash cloth, not thich, just like a dish cloth really and I have never cut myself since.

towels....i dont know....they definately give the appearance of deception....i would definatley not use them.

what's a few cuts to a tough guy like you sanjuro :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

towels....i dont know....they definately give the appearance of deception....i would definatley not use them.

what's a few cuts to a tough guy like you sanjuro :)

LOL !
Point taken, though putting jow on a cut is never a good thing, LOL !

[TenTigers]

I still want to see a list of some of the forms they teach.
In many cases, it is an indication of the source.

[bawang]

omg dat guy rooks so good wher can i learn?
ololololololoolllololol

shaolin san isnt even a coherent phrase in chinese lol and he charges thousands of dollars for private lessons and seminars what a poosy lolol

[AJM]

I still want to see a list of some of the forms they teach.
In many cases, it is an indication of the source.

As a teen there would have been nothing available for Brian to study. The closest thing in the late sixties early seventies was Jhun Rhee's Tai Kwon Do in DC over twenty miles away.

[brothernumber9]

Not to derail the thread but by the early 70's Dean Chin, Hoy lee, Willy Lin, and a couple Tai Chi instructors were already teaching in and around the district. I know it's slim pickings, but there was a few. Otherwise, Thompkins Karate, Jhoon Rhee, and Kim's Karate abound.

[lkfmdc]

I sort of hate to add to the pile on (ok, no I don't, I don't care about adding to this thread)

A classmate of mine (who may jump in whenever he feels like it) met Brian Gray (Grey?) in the old Bak Lei Tat (when it was downstairs) in Chinatown a long time ago. At the time, my classmate was genuinely interested in what Brian may have had to offer and had a friendly conversation with him. HOWEVER, when it came to "what do you actually teach" or "who did you actually study with" those questions were always avoided and there were clear attempts to change the conversation. That should be a sign to most people

[stonewarrior67]

LOL !
Point taken, though putting jow on a cut is never a good thing, LOL !

you're so right...every winter one or both of my thumbs would split from the winter weather in ohio....danggggg did that burn....i used plenty of that liquid that forms a protective coating over the splits and even though i'd apply it heavy that medicine would find a way in there and burn!

ya know another thing about that gray or grey guy that no one touched on is...his articles in that rag inside kung fu wreaked of bs. a prudent person did not need to know one iota about iron palm to tell that he knew nothing and was a charlatan. father of iron palm in america...right...and i'm the king of siam.

[David Jamieson]

Maybe he learned from the old Lee Ying Arng tapes? lol

although, maybe not....

IP is a fairly standard practice.

the key is you gotta practice it!

i prefer the indirect method myself. was never big on the urns, always prefered the beans/stones/shot bags

[Dale Dugas]

I have had issues with Gray.

Direct training is very dangerous no matter the medium you train with. His books talked about training with iron ore, and then making sure that the liniment was mixed with the iron ore dust in your hand to create the iron palm.

Not only is absorbing excess iron into your body through your hands/skin a health risk, inhaling iron ore dust into your lungs is a very serious health risk, and should not be done, ever.

Inhaling dust from mung beans or iron/steel shot is not good for you in any form.

anyone training should place their medium in bags to minimize if not inhibit this danger.

Gray loves to threaten to sue you when you mention his name and his rather lack of spine when it comes to being transparent when it comes to his lineage.

Funny, that you see his students breaking but not the man himself. That speaks volumes.

Anyone see his recent ehow articles?

[sanjuro_ronin]

you're so right...every winter one or both of my thumbs would split from the winter weather in ohio....danggggg did that burn....i used plenty of that liquid that forms a protective coating over the splits and even though i'd apply it heavy that medicine would find a way in there and burn!

ya know another thing about that gray or grey guy that no one touched on is...his articles in that rag inside kung fu wreaked of bs. a prudent person did not need to know one iota about iron palm to tell that he knew nothing and was a charlatan. father of iron palm in america...right...and i'm the king of siam.

You are?
Hey, I've been meaning to ask you, Your Highness, what's with all the Thai She-males ????

The other issue is also the ingredients in the Jow, some of them are not ones you want getting into your bloodstream...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have had issues with Gray.

Direct training is very dangerous no matter the medium you train with. His books talked about training with iron ore, and then making sure that the liniment was mixed with the iron ore dust in your hand to create the iron palm.

Not only is absorbing excess iron into your body through your hands/skin a health risk, inhaling iron ore dust into your lungs is a very serious health risk, and should not be done, ever.

Inhaling dust from mung beans or iron/steel shot is not good for you in any form.

anyone training should place their medium in bags to minimize if not inhibit this danger.

Gray loves to threaten to sue you when you mention his name and his rather lack of spine when it comes to being transparent when it comes to his lineage.

Funny, that you see his students breaking but not the man himself. That speaks volumes.

Anyone see his recent ehow articles?

I didn't know he advocated that.
Sheesh, and that was in his book ???
Glad I never bought any of his stuff.

[David Jamieson]

the direct method is known to cause damage to the hands, but produces the result faster.

I personally wasn't interested in the health risks as Dale mentions.

the use of river stone is probably the safest way to progress in the direct method and the use of iron filings is the least safe.

a lined canvas bag should hold your medium so as to not throw up dust that you inhale.

lead shot is a no-no, copper bbs or iron shot is preferred at the end stage.

I don't know what anyone else does to maintain, but I keep a mung bean bag for myself and will do a month of water striking in the summer months.

here's something interesting of note though in regards to maintenance.

I stopped for a year and in the spring as I was gardening, I was vigorously digging into hard earth and the spade tore my skin, I peeled it and virtually my entire palm came off in a huge callous. BUt my hand did not feel calloused and I hadn't even been aware of the thickness of the skin.

That was interesting. lol.

Healing was super fast and i went back to slapping the bag within 2 weeks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the direct method is known to cause damage to the hands, but produces the result faster.

I personally wasn't interested in the health risks as Dale mentions.

the use of river stone is probably the safest way to progress in the direct method and the use of iron filings is the least safe.

a lined canvas bag should hold your medium so as to not throw up dust that you inhale.

lead shot is a no-no, copper bbs or iron shot is preferred at the end stage.

I don't know what anyone else does to maintain, but I keep a mung bean bag for myself and will do a month of water striking in the summer months.

here's something interesting of note though in regards to maintenance.

I stopped for a year and in the spring as I was gardening, I was vigorously digging into hard earth and the spade tore my skin, I peeled it and virtually my entire palm came off in a huge callous. BUt my hand did not feel calloused and I hadn't even been aware of the thickness of the skin.

That was interesting. lol.

Healing was super fast and i went back to slapping the bag within 2 weeks.

If you can get a PVC lined bag, you should get it, even at the extra cost.
As for lead, I think that if a person has no lined bag, forget lead and stick to steel, if they do have a lined bag there are advantages to lead, but it isn't a "must".
A good Jow is a must and Dale's Jow is top notch and very well priced.

[Hardwork108]

FWIW, Mr. Gray wrote in Inside Kung Fu Magazine that "Shaolin San" is (was?) the name he gave to his school because he wanted it to carry on the traditions of the 2 Shaolin Temples. His school was "...going to be number three",

That is rather pretentious.

And isn´t he rather young to be a "Grand" master?

I had a look at his site and it screams McKung fu or is it Mc Iron Palm?

The mans seems to embody everything that is wrong with TCMAs nowadays.



Seriously guys this "discussion" ain´t worth discussing!:D

[Hardwork108]

Very good post and well said.

Of course it was a "very good" post as it mentioned the grand art of "BJJ" and by implication crosstraining.

Rather missed the point here haven´t we?:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

anyone training should place their medium in bags to minimize if not inhibit this danger.

Or otherwise wear a surgical mask. That way they can train to "dig" their strikes deeper as they improve and not worry about the dust.

[Kansuke]

Of course it was a "very good" post as it mentioned the grand art of "BJJ" and by implication crosstraining.

Rather missed the point here haven´t we?:rolleyes:



Do you have something against BJJ?

[TenTigers]

the direct method conforms more to the shape of the hand, but is harder to set up, as one needs huge urns for the medium. I agree with the dust issue, which is why it was usually practiced outdoors, in fresh air and sunlight. This is also why there is the method of heating up the medium. During the colder months, it was neccesary. Of course, through legend and books and film, we get the guys striking hot iron shot, like you see in "Enter the Dragon","Five Fingers of Death," and the ridiculous versions of why it is called Red Sand palm.

I have to dissagree with one other thing, and that is that showing one's students being a bad sign. It shows that you are a good teacher. It is one thing if you are good, but if you cannot pass your hand to your students, what good are you as a teacher? Showing your students performing skills means that you can make others good, not just yourself.
I have seen Brian Gray perform breaks, and he seems to be able to slap through some pretty large slabs.
But I still question the authenticity.

[TenTigers]

Do you have something against BJJ?
drop it Kansuke. Don't screw up another thread with your little personal vendetta.
It is one thing to make a playful comment, quite another to follow someone from thread to thread like an internet stalker. Grow up.

[lkfmdc]

drop it Kansuke. Don't screw up another thread with your little personal vendetta.
It is one thing to make a playful comment, quite another to follow someone from thread to thread like an internet stalker. Grow up.

you do realize your description matches "hardwork" as well? he shows up all over the place with the same tired crap... oh, but wait! he's a TCMA guy so he must be right :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

drop it Kansuke. Don't screw up another thread with your little personal vendetta.



I'm just asking a question. Your "drop it" comes a little late.

[TenTigers]

yeah, it is late. Shoulda happened long agao.
I hear ya, lkfmdc, I'm not playin favorites, if Hardwork had posted the same thing, I would have responded the same. It's just getting real old at his point, and it derails the threads.
-and it's not that these guys don't have anything to say. Each one has made valiid points at one time or another, but when it starts becoming this 1bad type of crap, where everytime one of them makes a post, the other has to jump on it and take it for pages, it gets annoying.
well, let's not do the same thing, here.
I much prefer the Brian Gray stuff.

[lkfmdc]

I disagree, "hardwork" is the worst kind of troll, and has shown he adds nothing here at all... but I realize that this place has less moderation than the park in the Bronx at midnight so I just ignore him, but I understand other people feeling the urge to tell him to f-off

[Hardwork108]

drop it Kansuke. Don't screw up another thread with your little personal vendetta.
It is one thing to make a playful comment, quite another to follow someone from thread to thread like an internet stalker. Grow up.

Thank you Ten Tigers.

[Hardwork108]

I hear ya, lkfmdc, I'm not playin favorites, if Hardwork had posted the same thing, I would have responded the same. It's just getting real old at his point, and it derails the threads.
-and it's not that these guys don't have anything to say. Each one has made valiid points at one time or another, but when it starts becoming this 1bad type of crap, where everytime one of them makes a post, the other has to jump on it and take it for pages, it gets annoying.
well, let's not do the same thing, here.
I much prefer the Brian Gray stuff.

As far as I am concerned Ikfmdc is as bad as kansuke. I can´t remember the last time I posted anything to him directly (because I generally don´t bother), yet he keeps popping up and badmouthing me in the most cowardly fashion as possible every opportunity he gets, doing his best to discredit everything I post.

Not only that but as you may remember him and some of his other MMA friends (taai gihk yahn, Sanjuro, among other notable knuckleheads here) played an ugly prank that was instigated by IKFMDC himself, by misquoting my posts and attributing me with PMs that were meant to show me as a Nazi, anti semetic criminal.

Funny that Ikfmdc is the one who keeps complaining about lax moderation!

His current cowardly approach is similar to that of the MMA-ist Sanjuro ronin who is "smart" enough to have me on "ignore" so that he can "excuse himself" from answering the slanderous remarks he aims and has aimed at me in the past, while at the same time knowing very well that he couldn´t discuss authentic kung fu with me if his life depended on it.

Yes talk about "less" moderation. Ikfmdc recently participated in the kyokushinkai vs monkey boxing and we all know that the purpose of his presence there was to just badmouth me. His contribution to the actual subject mattero of the thread was a big ZERO!

Talk about TROLLS!

Short of the story is that these people are nothing more than Glorified Kickboxers and they hate me for showing them up for what they really are in ESSENCE! Specially the ones who are here to promote themselves including their egos and/or their "Kung Fu" :rolleyes:/kickboxing BUSINESSES!!!

Hence the chasing and direct and indirect badmouthing and the general hate campaign.

Yes, they feel THREATENED (together of course, with their "kung fu":rolleyes: "credentials":rolleyes: and "resumes":rolleyes:)!

And you can see their insecurity by reading every post they address to me and their constant ingnoring or "not noticing" of the posts I make regarding traditional kung fu training!

Sorry for the longish post and I don´t want to get off the subject of this thread. So lets call this a so that you know post.:)

HW108

P.S. If any of the "modern kung fu experts" did not like my post then please take the matter up with me through PM as not to derail this thread or otherwise hold your peace. Your kindness and consideration will be appreciated.

[lkfmdc]

Got to love how someone with 2 years of training thinks they know more than someone who has studied longer than they have been alive :rolleyes:

BTW: you'll notice that "hardwork" just recently also got into it with John Wang, yeah, what does John Wang know! (/sarcasm)

[taai gihk yahn]

his MMA friends...taai gihk yahn...among other notable knuckleheads here
I'm still having trouble understanding why without provocation you continue to direct insults in my direction despite your supposedly agreeing not to engage in this sort of behavior as a condition of your being un-banned; are you trying to goad me into some sort of pointless exchange?
also, not to belabor the point, but I have never practiced "MMA", I have never kickboxed and I have studied taijiquan with an "authentic" sifu exclusively for the last 15 years; so where are you getting this all from?

[Kansuke]

yet he keeps popping up and badmouthing me in the most cowardly fashion as possible every opportunity he gets, doing his best to discredit everything I post.



Have you at least considered the notion that you are doing your best to discredit yourself everytime you pretend to be qualified to decide who is or is not a "real kungfu man?" Have you mused over the idea that your attitude and constant repitition of this 'I have the real kungfu!' act are the most discrediting things you can do for yourself?


Think about it.

[Hardwork108]

I'm still having trouble understanding why without provocation you continue to direct insults in my direction despite your supposedly agreeing not to engage in this sort of behavior as a condition of your being un-banned; are you trying to goad me into some sort of pointless exchange?
also, not to belabor the point, but I have never practiced "MMA", I have never kickboxed and I have studied taijiquan with an "authentic" sifu exclusively for the last 15 years; so where are you getting this all from?

Yet, you participated in that ugly prank and your previous forum profile did not list only Tai Chi as your MA. Plus your own posts seem to suggest what your real "essence" is! If you find the truth offensive, then that is your problem.

Stop making assumptions about the "conditions" of me being un-banned. You and Ikfmdc were very lucky not to get yourselves banned for that prank and you know it.

If you have any other issues then PM me rather than derail this thread. The same goes for your knucklehead "kung fu":rolleyes: friends Ikfmdc (who has proven time and again that he can´t count and is unable to make a single post about me that does not contain a dishonest statement or a lie of some sort)and Kansuke (who seems to misunderstand every single post that I have made about traditional kung fu training, missing the point of what I say which is about the APPROACH and not about myself :rolleyes:).

[lkfmdc]

It's just a matter of time until he is banned again, the real question is how long and how much crap will he post before something is done

:rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

your previous forum profile did not list only Tai Chi as your MA.


And what did you just say in another thread about why you won't reveal what super secret art you supposedly studied in London is? Try to keep your stories straight.

[lkfmdc]

it's just the same old crap as last time, which got him banned (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=864877&postcount=145)

He was banned on two other forums, only here did he get reinstated :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

He seems to thrive on humiliation.

[taai gihk yahn]

your previous forum profile did not list only Tai Chi as your MA.
yes it did; and all that other stuff was done prior to my studying taiji; and it was all stuff I did while searching for the right place; once I found my current school, I stopped looking; but I've mentioned this already; and your (typical) response was to cry "d1ck-waving"; anyway, none of the "previous" arts I studied involved MMA or kickboxing anyhow;


Plus your own posts seem to suggest what your real "essence" is!
that's your opinion, and maybe you just don't get that on internet forums what you read is not necessarily reflective of the person behind the keyboard, and sometimes there's a reason for that; anyway, you believe it because it suits your agenda, which is that you can't handle the possibility that your neat little construct of what constitutes "real" kung fu might actually not be the case - the possibility that someone who has actually studied "authentic" kung fu in depth might not agree with your rigid perspective is just too unsettling for you; of course, you justify it with your solipsistic argument that anyone who may have an opinion different from yours obviously didn't study "real" kung fu, which saves you the trouble of having to actually accept that your definition of "real" kung fu is not universal, that there are no absolutes (I mean, get real "kung fu principles", indeed - you look at all the different TCMA's, the principles they will list are as varied as you can get; and as far as one art being "irrelevant" to another, that is not so much a question of one art's relationship to another, as it is a reflection of the limited capacity of the individual to understand how they relate despite their apparent differences)


If you find the truth offensive, then that is your problem.
if anyone is offended by truth, it's you, because for you "truth" is a set of rigid criteria;


Stop making assumptions about the "conditions" of me being un-banned.
whatever; fact is, you just can't seem to post without making derogatory remarks about other people;


You and Ikfmdc were very lucky not to get yourselves banned for that prank and you know it.
LOL, luck had nothing to do with it; remember the link I provided to the post by Gene where he basically said all's fair when it comes to dealing with trolls?


If you have any other issues then PM me rather than derail this thread.
nope, no other issues; but as long as you keep mentioning me in a derogatory manner without cause and classifying me as an MMA / kickboxer in your posts, I'll keep inquiring as to the reason; and BTW, unless you are posting about me on a thread dedicated to insulting and misrepresenting me, then technically any further posting of that nature would be off-topic; so you would be the one doing the derailing, not me;

[lkfmdc]

"hardwork" was "chinese fist" on Bullshido, got called out and got banned.....

If interested you can read all his posts over there. Teh best part was when "Pedro" a real student of the Wing Chun guy "hardwork" claims as his sifu called him out!

[sanjuro_ronin]

the direct method conforms more to the shape of the hand, but is harder to set up, as one needs huge urns for the medium. I agree with the dust issue, which is why it was usually practiced outdoors, in fresh air and sunlight. This is also why there is the method of heating up the medium. During the colder months, it was neccesary. Of course, through legend and books and film, we get the guys striking hot iron shot, like you see in "Enter the Dragon","Five Fingers of Death," and the ridiculous versions of why it is called Red Sand palm.

I have to dissagree with one other thing, and that is that showing one's students being a bad sign. It shows that you are a good teacher. It is one thing if you are good, but if you cannot pass your hand to your students, what good are you as a teacher? Showing your students performing skills means that you can make others good, not just yourself.
I have seen Brian Gray perform breaks, and he seems to be able to slap through some pretty large slabs.
But I still question the authenticity.


To get back on topic ( **** that fraud HW8 tries to ruin every thread), I don't doubt that Brian can break some serious slabs, no matter what he has been doing IP for many years now.
But if he is suggesting harmful training methods, that must be addressed, if he is making up his own system of MA ( nothing in itself wrong with that) this must be addressed, if he is claiming a lineage that is not factual, that must be addressed.
Like my sig says, if someone can't name who he learned under or trains with, then everything MA related they say is called into question.
Mine, for example, is very simple, in regards to IP:
Dale Dugas-Steven Hamp-Gene Chicoine- Freemon Ong (sp?).
Its not that hard at all.

[TenTigers]

if someone can't name who he learned under or trains with, then everything MA related they say is called into question.


hmmm, well, I can't name who I study SPM with, due to the fact that my teacher(s) wish to remain under the radar. However, if you know the right people, you could probably find out-if you are in the right circles, there really are no secrets.
But, does it really matter to a bunch of people on an online forum? It depends upon who you consider your peers to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmmm, well, I can't name who I study SPM with, due to the fact that my teacher(s) wish to remain under the radar. However, if you know the right people, you could probably find out-if you are in the right circles, there really are no secrets.
But, does it really matter to a bunch of people on an online forum? It depends upon who you consider your peers to be.

Ah dude, these views tend to be "case specific", as in your case where, for the knowledgable, half a clue is enough.
But we know you, your name, who you have trained with,etc.

[Hardwork108]

hmmm, well, I can't name who I study SPM with, due to the fact that my teacher(s) wish to remain under the radar. However, if you know the right people, you could probably find out-if you are in the right circles, there really are no secrets.
But, does it really matter to a bunch of people on an online forum? It depends upon who you consider your peers to be.

It also depends on how much one would want to show off his skills (specially on the YouTube ;)).

What knuckleheads like Sanjuro and lkfmdc will never understand is that there are kung fu sifus (real ones) out there that do not crave publicity and don´t get off on the "applause" they get breaking pieces of wood :rolleyes: on the YouTube.

I named my sifu once on another forum and I lived to regret it because unscrupulous people such as Lkfmdc and Sanjuro have used his name all over this forum in an attempt to falsley discredit me.

Ten Tigers, everything lkfmdc says is false. If you are interested then read the Bullshido thread and you will see that what Lkfmdc and Sanjuro (in the past) claimed is a FABRICATION.

They are just counting on the fact that many people will not bother going through the whole thread and will just take their word for it.

Apparently I touched a nerve in lkfmdc when in my previous post I showed him to be a self promoting kickboxer. After that post he has gone heywire with his accusations, insinuations while fabricating messages on my sifu´s behalf.

This is really low behavior even for this forum.

[lkfmdc]

Ah, yes, the whole world is out to get "hardworK' and only he is right, sure, yeah, that's the ticket :rolleyes:

What he really regrets is that once people found out who his sifu was, they could contact his sifu and find out that "hard work" is a fraud :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, yes, the whole world is out to get "hardworK' and only he is right, sure, yeah, that's the ticket :rolleyes:

What he really regrets is that once people found out who his sifu was, they could contact his sifu and find out that "hard work" is a fraud :rolleyes:

You are wasting your breath, IF there is anyone that choose to believe this individual after all that he has been shown to be, then that is there problem.
Its a waste of time and effort.
At least you didn't quote him and expose those of us that have him on ignore to his ramblings and dillusions.
He was banned before and he will probably get banned again for his constant harrasment and insults, not to mention his fraudulent and litigious behaviour.

[Hardwork108]

yes it did; and all that other stuff was done prior to my studying taiji; and it was all stuff I did while searching for the right place; once I found my current school, I stopped looking; but I've mentioned this already; and your (typical) response was to cry "d1ck-waving"; anyway, none of the "previous" arts I studied involved MMA or kickboxing anyhow;

Then how come they are not listed in your current profile???

Besides you are MMA ist in your approach. And that is fine. It is a free country but you have taken sides here with other "kung fu" :rolleyes: characters here who would be discussing the kung fu internals through the use of jokes about chi f@rts and other obnoxious comments. That is very un kung fu like isn´t it?


that's your opinion, and maybe you just don't get that on internet forums what you read is not necessarily reflective of the person behind the keyboard, and sometimes there's a reason for that;

And that reason would be the company that you keep. Namely your "Chi f@rt" MMA-ist friends!


anyway, you believe it because it suits your agenda,

My "agenda" here is to discuss authentic kung fu approach in its various dimensions. The people with the real agenda are the ones who cannot make a single post on the subjecto of kung fu without introducing the subject matter of the ring; MMA;BJJ and etc.

I say that because this is supposed to be a KUNG FU FORUM!


which is that you can't handle the possibility that your neat little construct of what constitutes "real" kung fu might actually not be the case - the possibility that someone who has actually studied "authentic" kung fu in depth might not agree with your rigid perspective is just too unsettling for you; of course, you justify it with your solipsistic argument that anyone who may have an opinion different from yours obviously didn't study "real" kung fu, which saves you the trouble of having to actually accept that your definition of "real" kung fu is not universal, that there are no absolutes (I mean, get real "kung fu principles", indeed - you look at all the different TCMA's, the principles they will list are as varied as you can get;

My concern are the basic principles that are common to most major kung fu styles. EG. the importance of proper rooting; the internals;Iron Palm;

Yes there is variety no body is denying that.


and as far as one art being "irrelevant" to another, that is not so much a question of one art's relationship to another, as it is a reflection of the limited capacity of the individual to understand how they relate despite their apparent differences)

What people like you, who claim to have authentic kung fu knowledge, don´t undertand is that while some differences may be apparent others are REAL and can be counter productive if you are crosstraining!


if anyone is offended by truth, it's you, because for you "truth" is a set of rigid criteria;

My truth is not as "rigid" as you may think. Having said that, I do not have the need to "stretch" the truth to fit my crosstraining agenda and to somehow project an exagerated forum image of myself. As I said before I am not here to sell a school nor my wood breaking skills (hello Sanjuro) and/or somehow contect these to my a "kung fu" training program.



whatever; fact is, you just can't seem to post without making derogatory remarks about other people;

Do you want to see derogatory remarks just look further up at Sanjuro calling me a fraud, the same knucklehead Sanjuro who as good as he is in kickboxing, is hopelessly when it comes to authentic kung fu.

You may look further and see lkfmdc´s vile lies regarding my character. And of course there is your other friend Kansuke. Ten Tigers was the only one with enough integrity to tell him , in not so many words, to shut up!

None of you seem to notice each others`"crimes" and "foot in the mouth" moments, but are too ready to jump in when I make a point that you guys find offensive. What do you have to say about that Chris???



LOL, luck had nothing to do with it; remember the link I provided to the post by Gene where he basically said all's fair when it comes to dealing with trolls?

I don´t recall the link, but you might like to know that is what he said to me when I complained about you and your MMA-ist friends idiotic posts.;)



nope, no other issues; but as long as you keep mentioning me in a derogatory manner without cause and classifying me as an MMA / kickboxer in your posts, I'll keep inquiring as to the reason;

If you don´t want people to "misunderstand" your MA sympaphies then perhaps you should "widen" your circle of friends and think more carefully when posting on the subject of tradional kung fu.;)



and BTW, unless you are posting about me on a thread dedicated to insulting and misrepresenting me, then technically any further posting of that nature would be off-topic; so you would be the one doing the derailing, not me;

And no, I am not letting you have the last word, but your post was appreciated and your moral opinion on lkfmdc,kansuke and Sanjuro´s derogatory remarks will be also appreciated (that is if you have managed treat your own moral amnesia).

HW108

PS. And you can pm me.

[Hardwork108]

You are wasting your breath, IF there is anyone that choose to believe this individual after all that he has been shown to be, then that is there problem.

I don´t believe that you are still trying to sell the same lies as lkfmdc.


He was banned before and he will probably get banned again for his constant harrasment and insults,

That from a "man" who falsly accused me of being a fraud.



not to mention his fraudulent and litigious behaviour.


There you go again and please do continue as you are showing your own insecurity at being revealed as nothing more than a Glorified Kickboxer, here to promote yourself just like your friend lkfmdc.

[lkfmdc]

my lord he's a bore :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Going back to the subject matter of this thread one just wonders if anyone ever sued Brian Grey for his false claims and even for injuries sustained in IP training?

[taai gihk yahn]

Then how come they are not listed in your current profile???
LOL - you of all people who are always reminding everyone that this is a "kung fu" forum"; I decided as such, that I would only mention the TCMA stuff I did, in context thereof; I suppose I could list everything again, if you really want me to, but I don't see much point in that


Besides you are MMA ist in your approach. And that is fine. It is a free country but you have taken sides here with other "kung fu" :rolleyes: characters here who would be discussing the kung fu internals through the use of jokes about chi f@rts and other obnoxious comments. That is very un kung fu like isn´t it?
first off, "kung fu" is a term that essentially means "effort over time"; it is not specific to MA nor to TCMA in particular for that matter (in fact, CTS would comment on non-TCMA guys who he thought were good fighters in whatever style they were doing as having "good kung fu"); second, you whole bit about "kung fu morality" and "good character" being important in terms of a teacher's decision to teach someone openly - you really have no idea about this at all: I can promise you, I know of several examples where "in-the-door" students of "authentic" Chinese teachers were of a character that certainly would not have been construed as "good" in general; rather, they simply had put in their time and in regards to their specific teacher did good by him, at least in his estimation; so they got his stuff; which they would use to do things like hurt other people for money; welcome to the world; third, TCMA, by it's nature, is MMA; it's just MMA from within a relatively limited geographic locale, up until the 20th c.;


And that reason would be the company that you keep. Namely your "Chi f@rt" MMA-ist friends!
they are just a lot more fun than you are, is all


My "agenda" here is to discuss authentic kung fu approach in its various dimensions. The people with the real agenda are the ones who cannot make a single post on the subjecto of kung fu without introducing the subject matter of the ring; MMA;BJJ and etc.
again, your concept of "authentic", which you seem to think is universal, is really not; but that is, I suspect, borne out of your limited experience with Chinese teachers / culture


My concern are the basic principles that are common to most major kung fu styles. EG. the importance of proper rooting; the internals;Iron Palm;
yeah, let's talk about those so-called "internals"; as if there is any sort of standardization there; for example, you claim that your WC has "internal"; well, according to some "internal" traditions, unless you have specifically opened up your microcosmic and macrocosmic orbit, you are not doing and will actually have no ability to do "real" internal; now, personally, I don't agree with this, but this is a major concept in the particular Daoist approach I study, which is Complete Reality School, Dragon Gate Sect; fact is, the so-called "internal" done by most martial schools, from this perspective, is low-level and crude; again, I personally, don't share that perspective, but this is how it is in terms of the tradition; my point is that what your style may call "internal" may not even be regarded as such by what are basically "internal" specialists - figure that one out; as for rooting, that is one aspect, true; but you also have to talk about "hing" or lightness, which is also an important concept; an example of "hing" would be boxing, MT or Filipino movement / footwork (taiji is also big on "hing", but more in the upper body); the problem is that many styles "forget" about this, overemphasizing root, ultimately to their detriment; which is why, I believe, lot of people look to arts that are more "hing" based; arts that you call "irrelevant"; but actually arts that end up balancing the bias of most "traditional" TCMA's; so relevance is relative


What people like you, who claim to have authentic kung fu knowledge, don´t understand is that while some differences may be apparent others are REAL and can be counter productive if you are crosstraining!
this is essentially the core of your argument, which is that the system dominates over the individual; however, it is the individual that embodies the system, and therefore the system is fluid, and changes over time to suit the needs of the times; what I will agree is that at the beginning of training it might be difficult for someone to integrate certain "opposing" ideas; but eventually, one understands the underlying unifying properties inherent to all martial-based approaches, and sees more similarities than differences;


My truth is not as "rigid" as you may think. Having said that, I do not have the need to "stretch" the truth to fit my crosstraining agenda and to somehow project an exagerated forum image of myself. As I said before I am not here to sell a school nor my wood breaking skills (hello Sanjuro) and/or somehow contect these to my a "kung fu" training program.
me neither: I don't really care about my "forum image", I don't break things and I don't own a school;


Do you want to see derogatory remarks just look further up at Sanjuro calling me a fraud, the same knucklehead Sanjuro who as good as he is in kickboxing, is hopelessly when it comes to authentic kung fu.
SR's a big boy, he can take care of himself; I dare say, were he standing in front of you, you might be somewhat less uncomplimentary in your appraisal of him


You may look further and see lkfmdc´s vile lies regarding my character. And of course there is your other friend Kansuke. Ten Tigers was the only one with enough integrity to tell him , in not so many words, to shut up!
IMPE, your vitriolic disdain for LKFMDC's entire approach to TCMA more than justifies anything he may reflect back to you; Kansuke has apparently toned himself down considerably from his previous incarnation, unlike yourself - for example, he had previously attacked me without cause for my "admitting" that I had "created" a long sword form during a meditation retreat some years ago and demonstrated it to my teacher while a thunder / lightning storm went on over some distant hills; I found it inspiring - he found it distressing, for some reason; we went back and forth a bit; ultimately, he lost interest when I declined to disavow myself of my statement; now, you may say that it is strange that we should still be "friends"; personally, I don't actually know the guy, it's an internet forum, and I agree with a lot of what he says; ultimately, he doesn't impact my life beyond this, so I'm pretty relaxed about him; as I am with you in the sense that while it's fun to go back and forth with you, it fundamentally has no impact on my "real" life;


None of you seem to notice each others`"crimes" and "foot in the mouth" moments, but are too ready to jump in when I make a point that you guys find offensive. What do you have to say about that Chris???
I guess that I "like" them better than you and therefore bias myself accordingly; and what of it? it's an internet forum; get over it;


I don´t recall the link, but you might like to know that is what he said to me when I complained about you and your MMA-ist friends idiotic posts.;)
so he is being consistent; that should make you very happy! point is though, you were still the one banned...


If you don´t want people to "misunderstand" your MA sympaphies then perhaps you should "widen" your circle of friends and think more carefully when posting on the subject of tradional kung fu.;)
perhaps you should spend less time playing forum superego and widen your own perspective on what traditional "kung fu" actually encompasses


And no, I am not letting you have the last word,
shocked, I am, shocked that you feel this way!!!


but your post was appreciated and your moral opinion on lkfmdc,kansuke and Sanjuro´s derogatory remarks will be also appreciated (that is if you have managed treat your own moral amnesia).
morality is relative; you treat it like it is an absolute; good luck with that;


PS. And you can pm me.
nah, I like to keep this public


Going back to the subject matter of this thread one just wonders if anyone ever sued Brian Grey for his false claims and even for injuries sustained in IP training?
that would be easily researched on LEXIS or WESTLAW, the two major legal databases; any attorney should be able to do that for you without any difficulty

[Dale Dugas]

sue over false claims?

if you use his basic dit da jow, and hit beans you are not going to hurt yourself in the least. But then again you are not really training in Iron Palm.

You can start with beans, but if you are serious you need to work your way up to metal shot, and work that the rest of your training life.

Gray's medicine was called into question many times before. He threatened to sue me rather than attempt to explain his methodology of cooking his medicine for hours. Cooking certain herbs for hours, even those in Grays basic injury formula, would cause these herbs to be rendered useless. Some aromatic herbs need to be treated carefully if heated as they can lose their chemical components through overcooking/steaming, etc...

He makes very grandiose claims his medicine is revered by chinese herbalists. When asked who these people were, he threatened legal action.

It seems the man has a problem with being honest and forthwith.

[IronWeasel]

Going back to the subject matter of this thread one just wonders if anyone ever sued Brian Grey for his false claims and even for injuries sustained in IP training?



??

A martial artist with IP training has a grudge and he should SUE???

Nah...there should be a beating. Problem solved.




...sue...(facepalm)...

[Hardwork108]

sue over false claims?

if you use his basic dit da jow, and hit beans you are not going to hurt yourself in the least. But then again you are not really training in Iron Palm.

You can start with beans, but if you are serious you need to work your way up to metal shot, and work that the rest of your training life.

Gray's medicine was called into question many times before. He threatened to sue me rather than attempt to explain his methodology of cooking his medicine for hours. Cooking certain herbs for hours, even those in Grays basic injury formula, would cause these herbs to be rendered useless. Some aromatic herbs need to be treated carefully if heated as they can lose their chemical components through overcooking/steaming, etc...

He makes very grandiose claims his medicine is revered by chinese herbalists. When asked who these people were, he threatened legal action.

I would hazzard a guess that it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt during his prescribed training or damages a limb by attempting to break something that he was made to believe he could break having followed Brian Grey´s training.

Can you Dale forsee something like this happening in the future, or do you believe that Brian Grey will get away with his "Iron Palm" business?

It is a pity how the TCMAs are so infested by these type of "sifus".


It seems the man has a problem with being honest and forthwith.

That is also a common problem. One just needs to look here in this very forum to see how common.

[Hardwork108]

??

A martial artist with IP training has a grudge and he should SUE???

Nah...there should be a beating. Problem solved.




...sue...(facepalm)...

The problem with these types is if you don´t beat them up bad enough, then they will sue you afterwards.:D ;)

[IronWeasel]

The problem with these types is if you don´t beat them up bad enough, then they will sue you afterwards.:D ;)



One hit...one kill!:cool:

[Hardwork108]

Part 1 :rolleyes:



LOL - you of all people who are always reminding everyone that this is a "kung fu" forum"; I decided as such, that I would only mention the TCMA stuff I did, in context thereof; I suppose I could list everything again, if you really want me to, but I don't see much point in that
You mean you actually listenned to me?:eek:

I am impressed Chris old boy, really!:)



first off, "kung fu" is a term that essentially means "effort over time"; it is not specific to MA nor to TCMA in particular for that matter (in fact, CTS would comment on non-TCMA guys who he thought were good fighters in whatever style they were doing as having "good kung fu");

However as you may or may not know, over time these TCMAs have developed distinct characters that most of the time make them identifiable as "kung fu".



second, you whole bit about "kung fu morality" and "good character" being important in terms of a teacher's decision to teach someone openly - you really have no idea about this at all: I can promise you, I know of several examples where "in-the-door" students of "authentic" Chinese teachers were of a character that certainly would not have been construed as "good" in general; rather, they simply had put in their time and in regards to their specific teacher did good by him, at least in his estimation; so they got his stuff; which they would use to do things like hurt other people for money; welcome to the world;

You are not saying anything new to me. It is like saying that there are bad cops in the police force so no need to be chosey on the morality of the people who run the police force training programs. I have seen and trained with sifus who are chosey about who and what they teach. Welcome to MY world.



third, TCMA, by it's nature, is MMA;

I see that you have been reading and paying attention to my posts on this subject. I will add that individual styles will follow certain distinct concepts and principles even if their creation was a result of "crosstraining".



they are just a lot more fun than you are, is all

I am constantly amazed at how you find disrespect and immorality to be "fun".

I suppose that it is a case of different strokes for different folks.



again, your concept of "authentic", which you seem to think is universal, is really not; but that is, I suspect, borne out of your limited experience with Chinese teachers / culture

I may not know all the authentic approaches to kung fu training as you may or may not know kung fu covers a huge scope. However, I know enough to recognize the unauthentic and the McDonald kung fu practitioners.;)


yeah, let's talk about those so-called "internals"; as if there is any sort of standardization there; for example, you claim that your WC has "internal"; well, according to some "internal" traditions, unless you have specifically opened up your microcosmic and macrocosmic orbit, you are not doing and will actually have no ability to do "real" internal; now, personally, I don't agree with this, but this is a major concept in the particular Daoist approach I study, which is Complete Reality School, Dragon Gate Sect; fact is, the so-called "internal" done by most martial schools, from this perspective, is low-level and crude; again, I personally, don't share that perspective, but this is how it is in terms of the tradition; my point is that what your style may call "internal" may not even be regarded as such by what are basically "internal" specialists - figure that one out; as for rooting, that is one aspect, true; but you also have to talk about "hing" or lightness, which is also an important concept; an example of "hing" would be boxing, MT or Filipino movement / footwork (taiji is also big on "hing", but more in the upper body); the problem is that many styles "forget" about this, overemphasizing root, ultimately to their detriment; which is why, I believe, lot of people look to arts that are more "hing" based; arts that you call "irrelevant"; but actually arts that end up balancing the bias of most "traditional" TCMA's; so relevance is relative

The internals cover a grand scope and are many times misunderstood. Yet again when I come across a so called kung fu practitioner who can´t help himself but to make jokes about "chi f@rts" and "magic powers" then I draw my own conclusions about his "kung fu" knowledge and morality. CORRECTLY I MIGHT ADD!



this is essentially the core of your argument, which is that the system dominates over the individual; however, it is the individual that embodies the system, and therefore the system is fluid, and changes over time to suit the needs of the times; what I will agree is that at the beginning of training it might be difficult for someone to integrate certain "opposing" ideas; but eventually, one understands the underlying unifying properties inherent to all martial-based approaches, and sees more similarities than differences;
What you say here sounds like the approach that I have been taught which is you need to learn a given style of kung fu following its concepts and priniciples. Once you master it then you make it your own that is the style becomes you and you become the style. Is that what you are saying?



me neither: I don't really care about my "forum image",

I care about my forum image and that is why I don´t take it kindly when a dirt bag like Lkfmdc posts lies and made up statements about me.

We all care about our forum image and you do too.



I don't break things

Boy are you in trouble now with your knuclkehead friends. I mean how dare you post in a kung fu forum without breaking things. And I suppose there are no YouTube videos of you punching a hanging sandbag? There goes your "resume" and your 24 years of MA training.

I am suprised at you. Didn´t you know that it is not enough to train day by day and improve at your own pace? Didn´t you know that you need to "prove" your worth to the knucklehead fraternity here. Just wait til that great master of "kung fu":rolleyes: Sanjuro finds out about the aspects that are missing from your "resume".:eek:



and I don't own a school;

Others do!



SR's a big boy,

How do you know he is big. Oh wait a minute, is there something going on here that I am not aware of? Is this the sweet scent of romance in the air? Chris you old rascal you. Anyway enough said on that subject, that story is between you two and I hope that you will have the future that you both deserve. I`ll only say that your mutual respect for ground grappling is making more sense to me now.;)

Seriously though I know he is big, I have seen his picture. However it is not the size of his body nor his fighting ability that I have doubts with, it is his morality and his unending capacity to spew out lies about me while hiding behind the ignore button.

Otherwise I am fine with the rest of his accomplishments including that "incredible" video of him breaking a piece of wood on YouTube. That did wonders for his "kung fu resume" :rolleyes:.

Did you know that video was the most watched video by the Mainland Chinese Kung Fu Master´s Association? So much so that the chinese government attempted to block it, apparently because some of the older Chinese masters who had seen the video had laughed themselves to an heartattack.

[Hardwork108]

Part 2 :rolleyes:


he can take care of himself;

You don´t have to tell me nor to that piece of wood which Sanjuro ronin so mercilessly destroyed. I hear that every time Sanjuro walks by a tree, it starts shaking with fear.:eek:



I dare say, were he standing in front of you, you might be somewhat less uncomplimentary in your appraisal of him

My "appraisal" of him is based on his posts and lies regarding my person. If you had any morals you would admit that he was lying (together with lkfmdc).

So it doesn´t matter if he is standing infront of me or not. I don´t mince words and if that in the past had meant a fight then it was a case of so be it.

The only difference with Sanjuro would be that he would have an unfair advantage. Him standing infront of me would revive his "incredible" YouTube performances (I mean how those pieces of wood sufferred) and hence his "kung fu":rolleyes: resume and as a physical therapist I am sure that you are aware that it is impossible to fight while you are falling down laughing and doing your best to control your bladder.

Yes, he would win hands down but I would still have the last laugh!;)


IMPE, your vitriolic disdain for LKFMDC's entire approach to TCMA more than justifies anything he may reflect back to you;

YOU ARE WRONG! IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY HIM BRINGING MY SIFU´S NAME INTO HIS OBNOXIOUS POSTS!

You may remember the Nazi prank. When principally he (you and Sanjuro, etc.) came up with it, I didn´t even know who he was. And even when that prank fell around your collective ears, he then went on to bringin my sifu (with the help of Sanjuro) and went on to lie and attribute untruthful statements to him and about me.

The rest of you knuckleheads just went along and giggled just like the little girls that you are.

Furthermore if I don´t like lkfmdc´s approach then that by definition mean that he doesn´t like mine. He could, if he wished discuss his differences with me like some of the others here, yet he chose the character assassination root.

Why is he so afraid? I´ll tell you. Well because unlike you he has a "Kung Fu" school and he is here to promote it no matter what and we ain´t gonna get no TCMA morals from the likes of him!!!


Kansuke has apparently toned himself down considerably

Maybe with you, but with me he is the same, always baiting, provoking etc. Apparently this goes unoticed by the same people who call me a troll because apparently Kansuke is a ground fighter :eek: and does not practice kung fu which of course makes him immune from any criticism in supposed "kung fu forum". Yes the nuts have taken over the asylum. :rolleyes:


from his previous incarnation, unlike yourself - for example, he had previously attacked me without cause for my "admitting" that I had "created" a long sword form during a meditation retreat some years ago and demonstrated it to my teacher while a thunder / lightning storm went on over some distant hills; I found it inspiring - he found it distressing, for some reason; we went back and forth a bit; ultimately, he lost interest when I declined to disavow myself of my statement; now, you may say that it is strange that we should still be "friends"; personally, I don't actually know the guy, it's an internet forum, and I agree with a lot of what he says; ultimately, he doesn't impact my life beyond this, so I'm pretty relaxed about him; as I am with you in the sense that while it's fun to go back and forth with you, it fundamentally has no impact on my "real" life;

I agree with you there.



I guess that I "like" them better than you and therefore bias myself accordingly; and what of it? it's an internet forum; get over it;

You can "like" whomever you like but when some "kung fu" pretender makes an offensive joke about chi f@rts that I don´t take kindly to and then you step in to take his side, then I draw my own conclusions about where your sympathy lies and your ACTUAL "KNOWLEDGE" OF KUNG FU!



so he is being consistent; that should make you very happy! point is though, you were still the one banned...

I´ll tell you why I was banned. You and your MMA-ist girlfriends made so much noise by derailing threads and "chasing" me across the forum (and derailing other threads) that the moderators decided that enough was enough.

Now the question was wether to ban me or half a dozen of you knuckleheads. This forum being a business ,they decided to opt to ban one guy (who, surprise, surprise trained traditional kung fu) instead of banning you knuckleheads (who practice god knows what), many of whom had just learnt to spell the word kung fu.



perhaps you should spend less time playing forum superego and widen your own perspective on what traditional "kung fu" actually encompasses

You should take your own advice as well as also passing it to your kickboxer friends, Sanjuro ronin and Mr "quick buck" lkfmdc.


shocked, I am, shocked that you feel this way!!!

There are other things happening in this forum that a so called "traditionalist" such as yourself should be shocked about.



morality is relative;
You keep amazing me by the lenghs that you go to protect the immoral behavior of you kickboxer friends.

That is a good line. You should have been a lawyer. You would do a great job defending murderers and rapists: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, morality is relative"! LOL.LOL:LOL



you treat it like it is an absolute; good luck with that;

Attempted character assassination IS immoral! If you have not grasped that fact then you are the one in need of luck!



that would be easily researched on LEXIS or WESTLAW, the two major legal databases; any attorney should be able to do that for you without any difficulty

Yes, why have threads or discuss anything?:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

One hit...one kill!:cool:

Be careful about that one "hit one kill stuff" here in the forums.;)

Some of the MMA knuckleheads don´t believe in that stuff.

They just prefer to stand face to face and hit each other in the head for numerous rounds until the knucklehead with the lesser amount of brain cells is left standing and is then declared the "winner".:D

[Kansuke]

Then how come they are not listed in your current profile???.



Like your top secret London kungfu?

[sanjuro_ronin]

sue over false claims?

if you use his basic dit da jow, and hit beans you are not going to hurt yourself in the least. But then again you are not really training in Iron Palm.

You can start with beans, but if you are serious you need to work your way up to metal shot, and work that the rest of your training life.

Gray's medicine was called into question many times before. He threatened to sue me rather than attempt to explain his methodology of cooking his medicine for hours. Cooking certain herbs for hours, even those in Grays basic injury formula, would cause these herbs to be rendered useless. Some aromatic herbs need to be treated carefully if heated as they can lose their chemical components through overcooking/steaming, etc...

He makes very grandiose claims his medicine is revered by chinese herbalists. When asked who these people were, he threatened legal action.

It seems the man has a problem with being honest and forthwith.

And that is truly the crux of the matter it seems, when one makes claims one needs to back them up, period.
And in terms of IP, with the relatively small community, that is not hard to do if you are honest.

[TenTigers]

as for rooting, that is one aspect, true; but you also have to talk about "hing" or lightness, which is also an important concept; an example of "hing" would be boxing, MT or Filipino movement / footwork (taiji is also big on "hing", but more in the upper body); the problem is that many styles "forget" about this, overemphasizing root, ultimately to their detriment; which is why, I believe, lot of people look to arts that are more "hing" based; arts that you call "irrelevant"; but actually arts that end up balancing the bias of most "traditional" TCMA's; so relevance is relative


how would you classify styles that "root" only through their structure? Meaning, I can be on my toes, on one foot, etc without having to sink my stance, so long as my alignments are correct. Of course, there is actually some sinking going on, internally. Internally in the sense that inside my body, there is a contracting of the structure, along with specific alignments.

You've seen the demos, usually by Tai-Chi guys-demonstrating their "immovable stance," which is innacurate. What they are showing is structural alignments. Unfortunately, they seek to shroud it in mystery, rather than simply explain it for what it is.
In my opinion, when you remove the smoke and mirrors,
it is even more facinating.

[B-Rad]

Skimmed the topic and someone asked what Brian Gray actually taught. I didn't see an answer, but as far as I can tell it's a mish mash of things (sometimes modified or muddied up). I have VHS video of his students performing a "Shaolin" longfist form which is actually a beginer/intermediate level modern wushu routine. You know, the "learning" forms that more resemble traditional long fist than the acrobatic competition routines. I also recall him exchanging forms with my old teacher, and one of those forms being retooled into a snake routine by either Brian himself or one of his students. My old teacher was a modern wushu champion and studied with Brian Gray some when he was young. Him and his students would visit, hang out, exchange forms, etc.

[taai gihk yahn]

how would you classify styles that "root" only through their structure? Meaning, I can be on my toes, on one foot, etc without having to sink my stance, so long as my alignments are correct. Of course, there is actually some sinking going on, internally. Internally in the sense that inside my body, there is a contracting of the structure, along with specific alignments.

You've seen the demos, usually by Tai-Chi guys-demonstrating their "immovable stance," which is innacurate. What they are showing is structural alignments. Unfortunately, they seek to shroud it in mystery, rather than simply explain it for what it is.
In my opinion, when you remove the smoke and mirrors,
it is even more facinating.
it's a great question, and really one that has occupied me for some time now; I'm not sure it's fully answerable in writing, because there is a component to it that you either have or don't have, and to date the only way I have been able to demonstrate / experience this is in person;

that said, here's one way to think about it; if you are standing and you breathe in using so-called "belly" or "natural" breathing, your abdomen expands and your pelvic floor relaxes; on the other hand, if you do so-called "reverse" breathing, two things happen differently - the belly resists the anterior movement and the pelvic floor resists the dropping of viscera; meaning that the downward pressure of respiratory diaphragm moves through the structure of the spine / pelvis / hips / legs / feet into the earth; then the earth talks back giving you an upward thrust of ground reaction force, which the connective tissue system takes and uses to elongate the structure and give you that "suspended from the top" feeling; having engaged this mechanism, one now has both stability in the stance and torso and mobility in the torso and arms (of course, there is still mobility in the stance and stability in the arms, but it's relatively less - that whole yin / yang thang); balanced in this way, one now can work / move "internally", because of the unification of the breath to the GRF to the neuromusculoskeletal system;

to me, this is the "correct" expression of "gan" and "hing"; it also, I believe is the ground from which both "sung" and "pang" (or discontinuous compression / continuous tension to use the language of tensegrity as it relates to behavior of connective tissue);

I don't know if it directly answers your question per se - it's just how I think about it

[Lokhopkuen]

it's a great question, and really one that has occupied me for some time now; I'm not sure it's fully answerable in writing, because there is a component to it that you either have or don't have, and to date the only way I have been able to demonstrate / experience this is in person;

that said, here's one way to think about it; if you are standing and you breathe in using so-called "belly" or "natural" breathing, your abdomen expands and your pelvic floor relaxes; on the other hand, if you do so-called "reverse" breathing, two things happen differently - the belly resists the anterior movement and the pelvic floor resists the dropping of viscera; meaning that the downward pressure of respiratory diaphragm moves through the structure of the spine / pelvis / hips / legs / feet into the earth; then the earth talks back giving you an upward thrust of ground reaction force, which the connective tissue system takes and uses to elongate the structure and give you that "suspended from the top" feeling; having engaged this mechanism, one now has both stability in the stance and torso and mobility in the torso and arms (of course, there is still mobility in the stance and stability in the arms, but it's relatively less - that whole yin / yang thang); balanced in this way, one now can work / move "internally", because of the unification of the breath to the GRF to the neuromusculoskeletal system;

to me, this is the "correct" expression of "gan" and "hing"; it also, I believe is the ground from which both "sung" and "pang" (or discontinuous compression / continuous tension to use the language of tensegrity as it relates to behavior of connective tissue);

I don't know if it directly answers your question per se - it's just how I think about it


That's a very detailed explanation of some complexed connections and conditions.

I've seen some mentions of using iron filings, river stones, sand and what-not but nearly any resilient object will do. Its really just about gaining experience of the harmonies of internal and external alignments and intention. Striking a phone book for instance can lead the practitioner toward getting used to the feel of what it takes to break various objects without injuring self. A bag full of Mong beans and a good jow to loosen the tissues of the hand and wrist before and after is one of the best methods to start. I you want to get hard core then follow with sand and latter small stones but the beans or book are IMHO enough.

I meet Master Grey in 2001 in Zhong Zhou (http://harmoniousfist.com/images/Grey.jpg) and found him to be a nice guy and a clever conversationalist. Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe. I saw a couple of his students perform in the tournament and they were clearly out classed by most of the competitors there.

Bottom line is if you intend to pursue a regimen of hand conditioning be smart about it. Finding a good qualified teacher would be the best path to reach your goal. If that is not an option, research online and in books to compare various suggested methods and avoid the bizarre or extreme.

An old martial saying goes:
Twist the waist like a snake,
Root your feet firmly to the ground,
Be calm and patient,
Use your strength naturally,
Achieve your gung fu successfully.

These are good guide line for developing any martial skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a very detailed explanation of some complexed connections and conditions.

I've seen some mentions of using iron filings, river stones, sand and what-not but nearly any resilient object will do. Its really just about gaining experience of the harmonies of internal and external alignments and intention. Striking a phone book for instance can lead the practitioner toward getting used to the feel of what it takes to break various objects without injuring self. A bag full of Mong beans and a good jow to loosen the tissues of the hand and wrist before and after is one of the best methods to start. I you want to get hard core then follow with sand and latter small stones but the beans or book are IMHO enough.

I meet Master Grey in 2001 in Zhong Zhou (http://harmoniousfist.com/images/Grey.jpg) and found him to be a nice guy and a clever conversationalist. Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe. I saw a couple of his students perform in the tournament and they were clearly out classed by most of the competitors there.

Bottom line is if you intend to pursue a regimen of hand conditioning be smart about it. Finding a good qualified teacher would be the best path to reach your goal. If that is not an option, research online and in books to compare various suggested methods and avoid the bizarre or extreme.

An old martial saying goes:
Twist the waist like a snake,
Root your feet firmly to the ground,
Be calm and patient,
Use your strength naturally,
Achieve your gung fu successfully.

These are good guide line for developing any martial skills.

Well said Sifu.
And Chris ( taai gihk yahn) always manages to explain things in a detailed and understandable way.
It's his curse.
:D

[Eddie]

Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe.

No offence, but isn’t that comment a little arrogant?

Having said that, I also have no idea who you are, so my reply was more meant towards an anonymous internet username instead of a real person (if yhat makes sense to you). I have also never met this Brian Grey or any of his students, and probably wont ever do so either.

[taai gihk yahn]

also, what's the big deal in general about IP? it's not magic: you hit something with your hand a great deal over time, you will have adaptive changes to the hand; you don't train too hard so that you damage structure excessively; you will also develop a more efficient whole-body motor plan to deliver that strike which, theoretically, should also help increase the power in your delivery (although it's debatable if you only do downward striking - you would have to practice the IP along the same trajectory that you might hit someone to get the full benefit); as far as the "internal" part, you are basically doing controlled manipulation of autonomics - activating the sympathetics to get you "charged" up and the parasympathetics to help increase one's restorative capacity afterwards; dit da jow is theoretically going to help you "heal" although to date there are no studies that I am aware of that objectively demonstrate what is actually going on biochemically with jow application - not doubting that that possibility exists or that empirically one couldn't derive a formula that "works", but there are a lot of variables to consider here, including placebo effect, which is a powerful factor in any sort of medicine and healing

[Dale Dugas]

No,

IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.

[taai gihk yahn]

No,

IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.

sounds more than reasonable; Dale, are you aware of any biochemical based studies on a) components of herbs in dit da jow; b) physiological effects on tissue / pyhsiology on users thereof?

[TenTigers]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.

Correct.

On top of that, there are jows that are stricly "bruise ointments" and then there is IP Jow and anyone that has used both can tell the difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone can break wood and bricks and slabs, it jsut takes training.
What makes IP training different, in the regards to breaking, is that one is able to break with less effort.
There is less "powering through" the object and more "relaxed drop".
Of course as the thickness increases so must the amount of force.
But even in my clip you can see that I break a 2 x 8 x 16 patio slab with just a "drop" of the hand.
I could break that before, but I would have to slam it much harder.
Same thing with the other clips of guys like Dale and the "mutant hand" guy from China and tao123chi and of course Sifu Miller.

[taai gihk yahn]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.
deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation



Correct.
On top of that, there are jows that are stricly "bruise ointments" and then there is IP Jow and anyone that has used both can tell the difference.
true, but again, that subjective feeling could be based on the ingredients - for example, you will feel a big difference in a linement if it has things like capsicum or camphor in it (not saying it does, just making an observation - I am no jow mix-master; this is again not saying jow does or doesn't "work", just that one's subjective reports as to what it is doing is not necessarily an indicator of anything, unfortunately

again, don't get me wrong - I am not trying to "debunk" anything - just pointing out some issues; I think that at this point doing both analysis and clinical studies on jow would be a reasonable step in the right direction;

[TenTigers]

there are also jows that serve both purposes, where they also include herbs that nourish bone, tendon and ligaments. Some IP jows contain herbs that can, if used incorrectly cause the bones to become "over-tempered" and brittle. If you are to learn true IP, it is best if your Sifu is a dit da yee, or a doctor who specializes in bone and soft tissue trauma healing. Higher levels of IP, such as Cinnabar Palm, should be carefully monitored by a Sifu/doctor who can make sure that you are not incurring any injuries or stagnations along the way. Much of the "higher levels" of IP are more involved with noi-gung, and are not to be entered into lightly.
Of course, as we all know,these are all myths unless you can substantiate such claims by demonstrationg on youtube.:rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation


agreed. Some people have allergies to ingredients in many jow formulas, and have had great results from using proper massage, moist heat, and other liniments such as bak fa yao. In some cases, hot water and massage is all that is needed.

[taai gihk yahn]

there are also jows that serve both purposes, where they also include herbs that nourish bone, tendon and ligaments. Some IP jows contain herbs that can, if used incorrectly cause the bones to become "over-tempered" and brittle. If you are to learn true IP, it is best if your Sifu is a dit da yee, or a doctor who specializes in bone and soft tissue trauma healing. Higher levels of IP, such as Cinnabar Palm, should be carefully monitored by a Sifu/doctor who can make sure that you are not incurring any injuries or stagnations along the way. Much of the "higher levels" of IP are more involved with noi-gung, and are not to be entered into lightly.
Of course, as we all know,these are all myths unless you can substantiate such claims by demonstrationg on youtube.:rolleyes:

unfortunately, the idea of an external lineament making a bone "brittle" is questionable at best - what would be the evidence to substantiate this? higher rate of fracture? confirmed osteopenia or osteoperosis? all these things can be measured very accurately, so to make a claim like that one would be at least responsible for providing data;

again, this does not discount subjective, anecdotal data about one's personal experience, but it also does not allow one to generalize with validity or reliability

[sanjuro_ronin]

deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation



true, but again, that subjective feeling could be based on the ingredients - for example, you will feel a big difference in a linement if it has things like capsicum or camphor in it (not saying it does, just making an observation - I am no jow mix-master; this is again not saying jow does or doesn't "work", just that one's subjective reports as to what it is doing is not necessarily an indicator of anything, unfortunately

again, don't get me wrong - I am not trying to "debunk" anything - just pointing out some issues; I think that at this point doing both analysis and clinical studies on jow would be a reasonable step in the right direction;

No one is more of a "doubter" than I when it comes to TCMA and I know you know where I am coming from.
I did a little experiement on my shins with the IP jow and regular jow.
I bruised my shins while conditioning and on one put regular bruise jow and the other the IP jow, massaged them the same for the same length of time.
The bruise with IP jow was gone in about 24 hours, the other took around 48, hardly scientific, but "god enough" for comparative purposes.
Of course bruises on me tend to be gone in less than 72 hours anyways, no matter how bad.

[sanjuro_ronin]

unfortunately, the idea of an external lineament making a bone "brittle" is questionable at best - what would be the evidence to substantiate this? higher rate of fracture? confirmed osteopenia or osteoperosis? all these things can be measured very accurately, so to make a claim like that one would be at least responsible for providing data;

again, this does not discount subjective, anecdotal data about one's personal experience, but it also does not allow one to generalize with validity or reliability

Not sure how much ANY external ointment will effect bones directly.

[taai gihk yahn]

agreed. Some people have allergies to ingredients in many jow formulas, and have had great results from using proper massage, moist heat, and other liniments such as bak fa yao. In some cases, hot water and massage is all that is needed.

it would make for a nice comparative research study: one control group, one group using jow applied lightly, one using jow applied deeply, one group only doing deep massage (you might even have one group using "sham" jow as well, but that would make it even more complex); but you would need at least 20 people per group for statistical power, you'd have to standardize the jow formula, and you'd have to standardize both the training portion (e.g. - specific # of strikes on a bag at a specific force level) and the massage part; then you'd have to have a reliable / valid measurement: probably a subjective reports using some sort of standardized reporting tool, in terms of reorting pain, stiffness, etc.; you might be able to do some sort of functional testing, but that would be tricky to establish; finally, you might test physiological markers of some sort, but again, not sure what that would involve

bottom line - good research is difficult at best, because of all the variables involved; and then, of course, there is the notion that all training of this type is highly individualized, that standardization is not only impossible, it is undesirable; which, of course, is fine - but then one is not able to make an generalized statements regarding the practice or the jow itself - there's always a tradeoff between specificity and generalizability!

[taai gihk yahn]

Not sure how much ANY external ointment will effect bones directly.

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?

I don't know how much the Jow effects the increase in bone density of the hand, but I do know that there is noticible changes even after 1 year of IP training.
I had a comparative X-ray done of my right hand after I started IP, it was compared to a X-ray that I had done on the same hand before, when I had dislocated my finger, and even the technical commented on it, although only after I asked him if he saw any differences.

[bakxierboxer]

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?


There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.

What is "hyaluronic acid" ?

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't know how much the Jow effects the increase in bone density of the hand, but I do know that there is noticible changes even after 1 year of IP training.
I had a comparative X-ray done of my right hand after I started IP, it was compared to a X-ray that I had done on the same hand before, when I had dislocated my finger, and even the technical commented on it, although only after I asked him if he saw any differences.
what exactly did the tech claim to see?

as far as the film comparison: the x-ray would have needed to have been taken by the same machine, at the same distance; and also read by a radiologist, not a tech, who was blinded to which was the "before" and which was the "after";

anyway to have accurate readings on bone density you would need to have a bone density scan;

again, I do not doubt that training IP could increase bone density per se;

[bakxierboxer]

What is "hyaluronic acid" ?

Umm.... "memory" is the first thing to go........

S/B "hyaluronidase".......

http://www.answers.com/hyaluronidase

Basically, this version I heard had it that it was derived from bovine testicular "matter".
(ok, "bull balls")
Hyaluronidase promotes cell-wall permeability which allows for easier inflow/outflow of blood/fluids/whatever from the area in which it is applied.... which, if injured, "promotes healing"......

[TenTigers]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment. I knew someone who claimed it took away her wrinkles.
My ex used to mix this with essential oil of lavender, and it did wonders for her psoriasis.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what exactly did the tech claim to see?

as far as the film comparison: the x-ray would have needed to have been taken by the same machine, at the same distance; and also read by a radiologist, not a tech, who was blinded to which was the "before" and which was the "after";

anyway to have accurate readings on bone density you would need to have a bone density scan;

again, I do not doubt that training IP could increase bone density per se;

Well it was the same machine, don't know about the distance and it was the same tech.
The before and after were marked by the date on the files, he showed me them side by side ( Cool guy, does Aikido).
The reason I took the second x-ray was marked by my doctor as a comparative one to see how the dislocated finger had healed ( an excuse yes, but that's how I roll !).
He mentioned a bone density scan but I could never get one unless an Osteoperois specialist would recommend one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Umm.... "memory" is the first thing to go........

S/B "hyaluronidase".......

http://www.answers.com/hyaluronidase

Basically, this version I heard had it that it was derived from bovine testicular "matter".
(ok, "bull balls")
Hyaluronidase promotes cell-wall permeability which allows for easier inflow/outflow of blood/fluids/whatever from the area in which it is applied.... which, if injured, "promotes healing"......

Cool, thanks.

[taai gihk yahn]

There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.
c'mon - that's just totally bunk, with a nice "evil-mainstream-medical-practitioner-screws-honest-alternative-practitioner" bias thrown in;

first, hyaluronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyaluronan) acid has been "known" for at least 50+ years

BTW, jow formulas are no secret - Bob Flaws published a book 20 years ago with some very good recipies; no medical professional would "need" a TCM practitioner to get the ingredients; also, studies on biochemical properties of herbs have been conducted for a long time, one could easily research which of them contain hyaluronic acid if any do;

[bakxierboxer]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment. I knew someone who claimed it took away her wrinkles.
My ex used to mix this with essential oil of lavender, and it did wonders for her psoriasis.


Once you know what you're looking for, there are usually a number of sources of the "same" or "similar" agents.

[taai gihk yahn]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment.
IMPE, that stuff is incredible! I have personally observed it resolve a second degree burn (blistering) on myself after ~15 minutes with a significant decrease in pain almost immediately; (BTW, this assessment would qualify as "subjective anecdotal", and therefore would not be generalizable)

however, one thing about patent Chinese "herbal" pharmaceuticals - you never know what's really in them; for example, one "herbal" cream that an herbalist gave to one of my training brothers for his cold sores had two ingredients listed on the tube "tetricyclini et cortisoni" :D

[bakxierboxer]

c'mon - that's just totally bunk, with a nice "evil-mainstream-medical-practitioner-screws-honest-alternative-practitioner" bias thrown in;

So, you're saying that it absolutely couldn't have happened that way?



first, hyaluronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyaluronan) acid has been "known" for at least 50+ years

OK, youngster.... I heard that story just about 50 years ago, and it was supposedly an "old story" then.



BTW, jow formulas are no secret - Bob Flaws published a book 20 years ago with some very good recipies; no medical professional would "need" a TCM practitioner to get the ingredients; also, studies on biochemical properties of herbs have been conducted for a long time, one could easily research which of them contain hyaluronic acid if any do;

OK.... now take that back 50+ years ago.
Effin' MA (of the striking varieties) were "almost unknown" back then.
We're talking about days when there were three (3) "karate schools" in all of LA.
(and not many more than that when looking at all of SoCal)
The "usual" response when inquiring about Chinatown about there being any Chinese version of "karate" was "No! no Chinese karate!" (completely avoiding the mention of "anything else")
(let alone the training/conditioning aspects/aids)

[taai gihk yahn]

So, you're saying that it absolutely couldn't have happened that way?
nice try, but no cigar; while technically anything is possible, it's so improbable as to render it essentially non-debatable - for example, the fact that there are no names or other identifying data associated with the story makes it totally suspect; and also that the history of it's discovery is well-documented (below is one example):


Hyaluronic acid was discovered in 1934 by Karl Meyer and John Palmer, scientists at Columbia University, New York. They isolated the substance from a cow’s eye and conceived the name from hyalos (Greek work for glass) and the uronic sugar found in the substance. Hyaluronic acid was first used commercially in 1942 when Endre Balazs applied for a patent to use it as a substitute for egg white in bakery products. He went on to become the leading expert on hyaluronic acid and made the majority of discoveries relating to hyaluronic acid over the next fifty years. (http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=ProductView&CategoryID=35&SubcategoryID=52&ProductID=395)

slightly more plausible than someone stealing a dit da jow formula and stiffing the TCM guy who he got it from :rolleyes:



OK, youngster.... I heard that story just about 50 years ago, and it was supposedly an "old story" then.
ok "oldster", and what? 50 yrs. ago BS was still BS, AFAIK, if not more so given that the ability to debunk stories of that nature was a lot less than it is now


OK.... now take that back 50+ years ago.
Effin' MA (of the striking varieties) were "almost unknown" back then.
We're talking about days when there were three (3) "karate schools" in all of LA.
(and not many more than that when looking at all of SoCal)
The "usual" response when inquiring about Chinatown about there being any Chinese version of "karate" was "No! no Chinese karate!" (completely avoiding the mention of "anything else")
(let alone the training/conditioning aspects/aids)
that is all very interesting, but essentially irrelevant to the point about the story you heard being ridiculous;

[TenTigers]

ah, but what you DON'T know, whippersnapper, is that the cow was a Kung-Fu practitioner, and was being treated for an eye injury with his Sifu's dit da jow.
Jeez Chris, sometimes yer such a smart-a**. :-p "thppppt"

[bakxierboxer]

nice try, but no cigar; while technically anything is possible, it's so improbable as to render it essentially non-debatable - for example, the fact that there are no names or other identifying data associated with the story makes it totally suspect; and also that the history of it's discovery is well-documented (below is one example):


Hyaluronic acid was discovered in 1934 by Karl Meyer and John Palmer, scientists at Columbia University, New York. They isolated the substance from a cow’s eye and conceived the name from hyalos (Greek work for glass) and the uronic sugar found in the substance. Hyaluronic acid was first used commercially in 1942 when Endre Balazs applied for a patent to use it as a substitute for egg white in bakery products. He went on to become the leading expert on hyaluronic acid and made the majority of discoveries relating to hyaluronic acid over the next fifty years. (http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=ProductView&CategoryID=35&SubcategoryID=52&ProductID=395)

slightly more plausible than someone stealing a dit da jow formula and stiffing the TCM guy who he got it from :rolleyes:

FWIW, I "amended" that to hyaluronidase....
The researchers being from Columbia seems to put it in the "area" of NYC Chinatown, while what I'd heard of was from LA......
The "cow's eye" seems to put it into the area of bovine "matter" which has a certain similarity....



ok "oldster", and what? 50 yrs. ago BS was still BS, AFAIK, if not more so given that the ability to debunk stories of that nature was a lot less than it is now


In any case, I was still able to find "some material" about hyaluronidase "back then"
and still "remember it" to some degree.
Seems like you took a bit to go do a look-up yourself.



that is all very interesting, but essentially irrelevant to the point about the story you heard being ridiculous;

No more ridiculous than some of the stories you tell, Mr. Skeptic.
If I find myself short of something useful to do, perhaps I'll take the opportunity to wax skeptical over your latest and greatest "revelation".

[Lokhopkuen]

No offence, but isn’t that comment a little arrogant?

Having said that, I also have no idea who you are, so my reply was more meant towards an anonymous internet username instead of a real person (if yhat makes sense to you). I have also never met this Brian Grey or any of his students, and probably wont ever do so either.

I'm sorry I guess I am a little arrogant:D
I did say I liked the guy!

[taai gihk yahn]

FWIW, I "amended" that to hyaluronidase....
ok... :confused: but that's the enzyme that breaks down hyaluronic acid, so now you are talking about a different chemical...


The researchers being from Columbia seems to put it in the area of NYC Chinatown,
they are both in Manhattan; with about 200 blocks in between;


while what I'd heard of was from LA......
but still no documented evidence


The "cow's eye" seems to put it into the area of bovine "matter" which has a certain similarity....
similarity to what? did I miss something? what does bovine "matter" have to do with anything?


In any case, I was still able to find "some material" about hyaluronidase "back then"
and still "remember it" to some degree.
Seems like you took a bit to go do a look-up yourself.
yeah - I Googled "hyaluronic acid history"


No more ridiculous than some of the stories you tell, Mr. Skeptic.
such as? please give me a specific example of which story you find ridiculous;


If I find myself short of something useful to do, perhaps I'll take the opportunity to wax skeptical over your latest and greatest "revelation".
again, specifics please; and by all means, be as skeptical as you like about anything I say - if you can provide reliable evidence contradicting anything I post, I am all up for it; also, sarcasm does little to further your argument or polemic in general

[mawali]

it would make for a nice comparative research study: one control group, one group using jow applied lightly, one using jow applied deeply, one group only doing deep massage (you might even have one group using "sham" jow as well, but that would make it even more complex); but you would need at least 20 people per group for statistical power, you'd have to standardize the jow formula, and you'd have to standardize both the training portion (e.g. - specific # of strikes on a bag at a specific force level) and the massage part; then you'd have to have a reliable / valid measurement: probably a subjective reports using some sort of standardized reporting tool, in terms of reorting pain, stiffness, etc.; you might be able to do some sort of functional testing, but that would be tricky to establish; finally, you might test physiological markers of some sort, but again, not sure what that would involve

bottom line - good research is difficult at best, because of all the variables involved; and then, of course, there is the notion that all training of this type is highly individualized, that standardization is not only impossible, it is undesirable; which, of course, is fine - but then one is not able to make an generalized statements regarding the practice or the jow itself - there's always a tradeoff between specificity and generalizability!


Good points,
My only comments are as follows:
a. Is it the dit da jow (standardized) OR the massage portion that shows effect?
b. Everyone should have the same problem is same area
c. Use of a pain stiffness scale plus SF-36 (quality of life)
d. Time to relief is a better endpoint, i.e. 24, 48 hrs, etc or less
e. Add a cost effective portion, MD vs OMD or acupuncturist
f. You can nullify "sham treatment" if just massaging the area is good and compare to Time to relief. I would use sham in a different way thought that way may be an actual 'bogus' procedure when seen by an MD. For example, massaging the area then 'blowing qi (hot air??!!) is a shamanistic way to clear 'bad air' but a modern MD may see it as it may sound!!!

[Lokhopkuen]

No,

IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.

Funny thing though when a person is uninitiated to the mysteries if gung fu practice and it's related stance works and alignments it can appear quite magical. The Traveling "Monk" shows for instance. You look at those guys and go wow they can almost fly and how could that dude resist a blow to his head like that? In truth each and everything you see demonstrated there is a teachable skill set but until you learn it "It's magic!"

[taai gihk yahn]

Good points,
My only comments are as follows:
a. Is it the dit da jow (standardized) OR the massage portion that shows effect?
you would have to seperate out the two: one group jow applied w/out deep massage; one applied with deep massage; one deep massage alone;


b. Everyone should have the same problem is same area
it's not a clinical trial using patients - your sample is healthy adults doing IP training; you would need a baseline report from each person pre-training, immediately post-training and then post-application of the modality in question;


c. Use of a pain stiffness scale plus SF-36 (quality of life)
I am not familiar with that one, but will go take a look at it - but if it's standardized and has been shown to be valid / reliable, sure


d. Time to relief is a better endpoint, i.e. 24, 48 hrs, etc or less
sure, why not - but you would need a sensitive window - for example, in 24 hr. everyone might feel better anyway - so I'd look at 1 hour, 3 hours, 6 hours - something like that maybe (or smaller increments even)


e. Add a cost effective portion, MD vs OMD or acupuncturist
certainly a good parameter to look at, but this is typically done once the relative efficacy has been determined; to wit,one could argue that taking Advil after IP training could be a cheaper alternative, LOL


f. You can nullify "sham treatment" if just massaging the area is good and compare to Time to relief. I would use sham in a different way thought that way may be an actual 'bogus' procedure when seen by an MD. For example, massaging the area then 'blowing qi (hot air??!!) is a shamanistic way to clear 'bad air' but a modern MD may see it as it may sound!!!
the point of a "sham" jow is that it's easy to do and impossible to detect, as opposed to "sham" deep massage, for obvious reasons;

all excellent points; and goes to further underscore the difficulty inherent in conducting good (reliable / valid) research;

[bakxierboxer]

ok... :confused: but that's the enzyme that breaks down hyaluronic acid, so now you are talking about a different chemical...

For me, remembering that something from that far back contains "hyalur..." is "pretty good".
What do you remember from then?



they are both in Manhattan; with about 200 blocks in between;

A good deal closer than LA.




but still no documented evidence

If I'd thought much about it back then, I'm not sure just who I'd have approached to write it up.



similarity to what? did I miss something? what does bovine "matter" have to do with anything?

In an earlier post on this I mentioned that the ingredient involved in the "herbal" formula was bull testicles.



yeah - I Googled "hyaluronic acid history"

Right about the time I looked it up to answer SR & corrected myself.



such as? please give me a specific example of which story you find ridiculous;

Guess.



again, specifics please; and by all means, be as skeptical as you like about anything I say - if you can provide reliable evidence contradicting anything I post, I am all up for it; also, sarcasm does little to further your argument or polemic in general

Different strokes....
I write the way I write.

[taai gihk yahn]

For me, remembering that something from that far back contains "hyalur..." is "pretty good".
yeah, well considering the ending of the word completely changes the chemistry of it, not good enough in terms of the argument;


In an earlier post on this I mentioned that the ingredient involved in the "herbal" formula was bull testicles.
cows ≠ bulls; eyes≠testes; proximity≠causality


Guess.
oh please, grow up; with all due respect, if you want to criticize something I wrote, go right ahead, but don't play the coy game; I think the reality is that you can't recall anything specific, you are just making a general comment; which is fine, but at least be honest about it;


Different strokes....
I write the way I write.
that's fine, but it diminishes your inherent credibility;

[bakxierboxer]

yeah, well considering the ending of the word completely changes the chemistry of it, not good enough in terms of the argument;

OTOH, remembering something like that as having a "connection" to any Jow formulation would seem to be an interesting point of information.



cows ≠ bulls; eyes≠testes; proximity≠causality

No kiddin'?
Your new role as "Mr. Obvious"?



oh please, grow up; with all due respect, if you want to criticize something I wrote, go right ahead, but don't play the coy game; I think the reality is that you can't recall anything specific, you are just making a general comment; which is fine, but at least be honest about it;

You're right about that.
For the most part, although you can be annoyingly wordy at times, your info is good.
Areas where I felt that it wasn't so good seemed to not be worth jumping on.



that's fine, but it diminishes your inherent credibility;

Hunh!
Surprised that you think I have any at all.

[taai gihk yahn]

you can be annoyingly wordy at times
no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend

[bakxierboxer]

no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend

Which is what I've mostly been doing... hyper-skimming.
(not bad enough to be on my Ignore List.... yet)

[Akronviper]

Can we get back to bashing Grey this talk of chemistry and such is for the high brow crowd, not us :)

[stonewarrior67]

Can we get back to bashing Grey this talk of chemistry and such is for the high brow crowd, not us :)


sounds like a good idea b.

down with brain grey and his bald head boooooo hisssssss

[Hardwork108]

no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend

So why do you keep reading my posts, if they are not to your liking?

[taai gihk yahn]

So why do you keep reading my posts, if they are not to your liking?
well, as long as you keep mentioning me, I probably better keep an eye on them...;)

[Hardwork108]

well, as long as you keep mentioning me, I probably better keep an eye on them...;)


But my mentioning you is usually not to your liking, so why read unless the educational benefits of reading my posts far out weigh the fact that you don´t like me mentioning you.

[taai gihk yahn]

But my mentioning you is usually not to your liking, so why read unless the educational benefits of reading my posts far out weigh the fact that you don´t like me mentioning you.

so logical!

maybe I am trying to "steal" your secrets; maybe your posts worth a few yucks now and again; maybe I am trying to work off time in Purgatory for all my morally relative behavior; anyway, why do you really care, ultimately?

[hungheikwan]

I've been away from the forum for the last two weeks, but have to say that I'm impressed with the number of responses regarding iron palm and kung fu in general.
If one can get past the vitriol, there's a lot of intelligent discourse amongst the posting community. That's why I enjoy this forum so much.

As to the subject of this thread (which generated eight pages in two weeks!): whether you feel that Master Gray is legit or not, I respect your opinions, and understand, in some cases, your need to expose "phonies". The kung fu world is rife with those folk who would teach you "secret" forms, self-defense techniques, or just how to plain kick ass, and many of them are full of hooey. They're out to separate you from your money by teaching you just enough to keep you coming back to class.

Even if I listed the forms taught by Master Gray, the point is moot. He is semi-retired. Shao Lin San will be a memory in a few years. His Iron Palm training will be practiced by those who received it, without regard to your opinion. And, as I mentioned before, the curriculum is evolving under the direction of Shr Fu Ross Kellin to include more combat application (shuai jiao and san shou). Is this a legacy to be derided? In the end, what makes some forms or styles more legitimate than others? Shouldn't we ALL be practicing the forms set forth by Shao Lin Temple, if that's the case?

The truth is, when something works, it has value. And whether you get that knowledge from a 20th degree Grand Poobah or a dishwasher, is that knowledge any less valuable? But more to the point, is the knowledge applicable to everyone?
Bruce Lee got his core training from Yip Man, but, to my thinking, none of Yip Man's students ever approached Lee's skill. Playing the percentages, one might presume that Yip Man's system wasn't legit.

I personally think my kung fu sucks. But that's no reflection on Master Gray or any of my other teachers - it just encourages me to try harder, for MY own satisfaction.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who posted. Please continue to enlighten me.

[Hardwork108]

so logical!
It always is my dear boy.


maybe I am trying to "steal" your secrets;
Stealing whatever is not beyond you Mr taai "morality is relative" gihk yahn!


maybe your posts worth a few yucks now and again;

They are but how would you know? I mean you still haven´t demonstrated any significant knowledge of kung fu yet.

However, your therapeutic techniques are not bad. Your laughter therapy is doing me a lot of good so please keep posting on kung fu as there is nothing healthier than a good laugh.


maybe I am trying to work off time in Purgatory for all my morally relative behavior;
In a just world you would be doing hard time for your "morally relative" behavior. You really are morally screwed. People like you always think that it is always fine to lie and participate in immoral behavior on the net, "because it is only the net", but there is NO DIFFERENCE!

You are compensating for something that is missing in your life!

I am here to discuss real kung fu and it is a Kung fu forum. Yes, I do get into flame wars with you and your kickboxer MMA-ist friends and that results in some sharp language and gags coming from my side but I don´t lie or participate in attempted character assassination while hiding behind the "internet safety" of my keyboard!



anyway, why do you really care, ultimately?

Well if I am enlightening your kung fu knowledge then that is good to know. Good deeds and all that.;)

[TenTigers]

when you say sanshou, are you referring to the kickboxing being taught by wu-shu coaches? They are not applications to Northern Shaolin, other than the small arsenal used for sparring. Look at any Northern Shaolin form and count the moves that are not used in sanshou, look at your fighting theories and concepts. Night and day if you ask me. What you will be left with, is standardized kickboxing (which is great, if that is your goal) and forms that now have no relevance.
The art dies right there. Congratulate yourself. You just destroyed a legacy.
Now, of course, if when you speak of sanshou, you are specifically referring to training the applications of your given style, leading up to real time, etc. Then yes, it is certainly valid.

[taai gihk yahn]

Mr taai "morality is relative" gihk yahn!
ok Mr. Hardwork "categorical imperative" 108


They are but how would you know? I mean you still haven´t demonstrated any significant knowledge of kung fu yet.
neither have you; you just think you have been, because some of the other LARPers on here subscribe to your mythological belief system;


However, your therapeutic techniques are not bad. Your laughter therapy is doing me a lot of good so please keep posting on kung fu as there is nothing healthier than a good laugh.
by that measure, from reading your posts, I've become the healthiest person on the planet


In a just world you would be doing hard time for your "morally relative" behavior. You really are morally screwed. People like you always think that it is always fine to lie and participate in immoral behavior on the net, "because it is only the net", but there is NO DIFFERENCE!
you've been reading Kant again, haven't you? I thought your mommy told you to stop that!


You are compensating for something that is missing in your life!
thanks Dr. Freud, I'll be sure to look into that :rolleyes:


I am here to discuss real kung fu and it is a Kung fu forum.
but not quite "kung fu" enough for you, I warrant...


Yes, I do get into flame wars with you and your kickboxer MMA-ist friends and that results in some sharp language and gags coming from my side but I don´t lie or participate in attempted character assassination while hiding behind the "internet safety" of my keyboard!
it's simple - because from day one you have acted like an asz, from day two you have been treated like one, plain and simple; but you still think it's about your message, not your delivery, don't you? as for "hiding", LOL - you won't even give your own name, the names of who you study with, etc.;


Well if I am enlightening your kung fu knowledge then that is good to know. Good deeds and all that.;)
the sad thing is that you probably actually do believe that...

[Hardwork108]

ok Mr. Hardwork "categorical imperative" 108
Thank you.:D



neither have you; you just think you have been, because some of the other LARPers on here subscribe to your mythological belief system;
I have because I have and I had it a long time before I came across others here who practice authentic kung fu. You'll understand when you begin to study kung fu seriously.

Actually you could start by paying closer attention to my kung fu posts. It is never too late to learn. There are other kung fu posters from whom even you can learn about kung fu. Try the specialists boards(eg. Northern Mantis, Shaolin kung fu, etc.) as there is some very good info available there.



by that measure, from reading your posts, I've become the healthiest person on the planet
I doubt it. When I said that laughter was healthy I meant from reading genuinely funny material like those written by your good self and not you misunderstanding genuine kung fu posts and laughing at them out of ignorance.


Try to see the difference, will you.



you've been reading Kant again, haven't you? I thought your mommy told you to stop that!

What is "Kant"? I hope you are not referring to something that you have between your legs instead of something else.:eek:



thanks Dr. Freud, I'll be sure to look into that :rolleyes:
People like you never have the guts to look deep at their own selves. Besides from what I have seen, even Freud couldnt help you now.



but not quite "kung fu" enough for you, I warrant...

Not when it is infested with people such as your "good" self!



it's simple - because from day one you have acted like an asz, from day two you have been treated like one, plain and simple;

I have acted like an "asz" because I take exception to participating or starting a single kung fu thread without some knuckleheads turning it into a (merits of) bjj, kickboxing or MMA discussion?


but you still think it's about your message, not your delivery, don't you?

My message was fine before the, as you put it, "MMA abuse" !

The problem with self righteous hyporcrits like you is that when the MMA guys are doing all the abusing you sit silently and even contribute, like you have so many times (posting as cjurakpt).

When the intended "victim" reacts and gives as good as he gets, then you and your "tough" MMA girlfriends turn around and call him a troll and even complain to the moderator.

If that doesnt work then you invent lies and attribute posts to him that he has never made and in general do everything to pull off a complete character assassination.

This is what you, lkfmdc and Sanjuro ronin attempted with me where my posts were doctored to make out as a Nazi, satanist and antisemetic among other vile accusations. Lkfmdc is still using doctored and invented quotations in an attempt to dicredit me while you sit there watching in silence!

Your sympaphies are with the MMA-ists, period!

When it comes to them and their wrong doings, you always seem to be sufferring from moral amnesia!

Or is it a case of as you yourself shamelessly put it, "Morality is Relative"?


as for "hiding", LOL -

YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT THERE. So stop playing stupid because you are too stupid to even pull that one off!


you won't even give your own name, the names of who you study with, etc.;
You want my name so that next time you guys try to character assassinate me you can use my real name?

Tell me something, is the water in your part of the US flueridated? And do consume a lot of it?

The name of the person I study with was dragged here from another sight by your knucklehead friend Sanjuro ronin.

Then your other glorified kickboxing friend, lkfmdc who has apparently "studied":rolleyes: traditional "kung fu", took the name of my kung fu sifu and dragged it across this forum in his feeble attempts to character assassinate me. Yes, your friend sure sounds like someone who has studied traditional kung fu!

Now you want me to provide the names of other sifus? Hey, how about Aspartame, do you consume a lot of products sweetened by this artificial chemical?



the sad thing is that you probably actually do believe that...

Well if I am wrong then ask me to put my kung fu explanations in simpler language so that even you can understand them!

[bawang]

plz do not be make talk
k

[taai gihk yahn]

I have because I have and I had it a long time before I came across others here who practice authentic kung fu. You'll understand when you begin to study kung fu seriously.

Actually you could start by paying closer attention to my kung fu posts. It is never too late to learn. There are other kung fu posters from whom even you can learn about kung fu. Try the specialists boards(eg. Northern Mantis, Shaolin kung fu, etc.) as there is some very good info available there.

I doubt it. When I said that laughter was healthy I meant from reading genuinely funny material like those written by your good self and not you misunderstanding genuine kung fu posts and laughing at them out of ignorance.

Try to see the difference, will you.

What is "Kant"? I hope you are not referring to something that you have between your legs instead of something else.:eek:

People like you never have the guts to look deep at their own selves. Besides from what I have seen, even Freud couldnt help you now.

Not when it is infested with people such as your "good" self!

I have acted like an "asz" because I take exception to participating or starting a single kung fu thread without some knuckleheads turning it into a (merits of) bjj, kickboxing or MMA discussion?

My message was fine before the, as you put it, "MMA abuse" !

The problem with self righteous hyporcrits like you is that when the MMA guys are doing all the abusing you sit silently and even contribute, like you have so many times (posting as cjurakpt).

When the intended "victim" reacts and gives as good as he gets, then you and your "tough" MMA girlfriends turn around and call him a troll and even complain to the moderator.

If that doesnt work then you invent lies and attribute posts to him that he has never made and in general do everything to pull off a complete character assassination.

This is what you, lkfmdc and Sanjuro ronin attempted with me where my posts were doctored to make out as a Nazi, satanist and antisemetic among other vile accusations. Lkfmdc is still using doctored and invented quotations in an attempt to dicredit me while you sit there watching in silence!

Your sympaphies are with the MMA-ists, period!

When it comes to them and their wrong doings, you always seem to be sufferring from moral amnesia!

Or is it a case of as you yourself shamelessly put it, "Morality is Relative"?

YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT THERE. So stop playing stupid because you are too stupid to even pull that one off!

You want my name so that next time you guys try to character assassinate me you can use my real name?

Tell me something, is the water in your part of the US flueridated? And do consume a lot of it?

The name of the person I study with was dragged here from another sight by your knucklehead friend Sanjuro ronin.

Then your other glorified kickboxing friend, lkfmdc who has apparently "studied":rolleyes: traditional "kung fu", took the name of my kung fu sifu and dragged it across this forum in his feeble attempts to character assassinate me. Yes, your friend sure sounds like someone who has studied traditional kung fu!

Now you want me to provide the names of other sifus? Hey, how about Aspartame, do you consume a lot of products sweetened by this artificial chemical?

Well if I am wrong then ask me to put my kung fu explanations in simpler language so that even you can understand them!
it's nice to see you can still be goaded into a mindless rant so easily, LOL


plz do not be make talk
k
k, but only cause you my friend now

[Hardwork108]

it's nice to see you can still be goaded

So, you wrote pages and pages of text to "goad" me? Doesn't look very efficient nor intelligent, does it? But well it is you Taai Gihk Yahn that we are talking about. Immoral, uninformed and not so intelligent.;)



into a mindless rant so easily, LOL

How can one have an intelligent "rant" with an intellectually challenged person such as yourself?:confused:

You didnt even understand the "mindless" rant. That means that the only thing that is left is for you to repeat read my posts, specially the ones regarding kung fu.

I believe that eventually you will see and understand some of the easier concepts involved. Good luck with that.:)

HW108

PS. I am happy to know that you manage to at least comprehend the aspects of my posts that referred to your immoral behavior in this forum and you psychological shortcomings. So we may not need to dig up Dr Freud to help you just yet.

[taai gihk yahn]

So, you wrote pages and pages of text to "goad" me? Doesn't look very efficient nor intelligent, does it? But well it is you Taai Gihk Yahn that we are talking about. Immoral, uninformed and not so intelligent.;)




How can one have an intelligent "rant" with an intellectually challenged person such as yourself?:confused:

You didnt even understand the "mindless" rant. That means that the only thing that is left is for you to repeat read my posts, specially the ones regarding kung fu.

I believe that eventually you will see and understand some of the easier concepts involved. Good luck with that.:)

HW108

PS. I am happy to know that you manage to at least comprehend the aspects of my posts that referred to your immoral behavior in this forum and you psychological shortcomings. So we may not need to dig up Dr Freud to help you just yet.

your trolling really knows no bounds, does it, LOL?

[bawang]

kill meeee
killl meeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[sanjuro_ronin]

It wouldn't hurt you guys to get back on topic and to ignore the troll.

[Dale Dugas]

So you cannot or will not answer the questions posed to you.

Not answering the question(s) speaks volumes.

Not only does Gray not have a lineage that can be backed up, his other self made claims can be brought into question as well.

The man has a seriously questionable background.

His attempts to portray himself as a trained herbalist are laughable. By his own hand, in his books and in articles he described how to make his infamous liniment. His directions point out his total lack of knowledge when it comes to actually making real training/trauma liniments.

That he claims to be a Grandmaster when no one has ever seen/met his teacher to whom he performed a Bai See is also highly doubtful.

One is usually a shifu first, and then when you create a student population would other tersm be introduced.

He has been calling himself "Master" for many years. I even have a letter from him in response to one I wrote to him more than 20 years ago where he signs himself as Master Brian Gray. One does not really call themselves by the title. and usually only after you bring up your students to the rank of Shifu would then your students and grandstudents call you that.

He seems to have only two students that have made the ranks to master, hence he can call himself Grandmaster. Impressive that after all these years and all this skill he has only two students. One would think he would have had more students.

All the rhetoric he spews about pointing out the phonies and fakes should be directed at himself.

His hand is rather low.

[TenTigers]

that is because as Hdwk108 sez-he never studied the real Kung-Fu:




http://www.funnieststuff.net/viewmovie.php?id=1103

[sanjuro_ronin]

that is because as Hdwk108 sez-he never studied the real Kung-Fu:




http://www.funnieststuff.net/viewmovie.php?id=1103

Most awesome commercial ever !!

[Hardwork108]

It wouldn't hurt you guys to get back on topic and to ignore the troll.

I do, but taai gihk yahn keeps posting to me!!!

[taai gihk yahn]

I do, but taai gihk yahn keeps posting to me!!!

not only are you obsessed, now you are delusional;

[Hardwork108]

There he goes again!

The man is obsessed!

[taai gihk yahn]

There he goes again!

The man is obsessed!

it's good to see that you have finally able to admit this about yourself; and who knows, maybe one day you will have enough inner fortitude to refer to yourself directly in the first person singular, as opposed to obliquely in the third - keep working at it though, you are certainly making progress and should be congratulated on that, I wish you all the best in your journey of self-discovery - maybe you have actually been practicing real kung-fu after all!

[Hardwork108]

:confused:

Will you please stop chasing me across the threads!

Get a life Taai Gihk Yahn!

HW108

PS. I have been telling you that I practice real kung fu for the best part of two years and suddenly the coin drops. You poor thing. You must be going through hell, trapped in that "mind" of yours.

Now be a nice boy and stop chasing me around the forums. Some people are beginning to think that you and some of your friends are love hungry girls.

[hungheikwan]

Somewhere amidst the sniping posts, I think you asked me a question.

For Ten Tigers: I use the term "san shou" to denote sparring which includes all four "chair legs" of kungfu - strikes, kicks, grapples, and take-downs. Master Kellin fields a team of fighters that compete in UFC and local bouts. He expects his kung fu students to train likewise.

For Mr. Dugas (no offense is intended by the title "mister"; I just don't know how you'd prefer to be addressed): I understand where you're coming from. Let me try to illuminate my situation. I live in central Florida, where "take-your-dough" schools exist on every corner. I don't have the financial resources to travel to Orlando or Clearwater to train with schools of "lineage". So even if I had to try to learn from a book or a Wing Lam video, if I want to study kung fu, my options are limited. I started my martial training in Wado-Ryu karate back in high school. When I went to college, I tried Yoshikai karate, Hapkido, and Aikido. Wherever my travels took me, I looked for the best teachers available, because even as a fledgling, I could see that style was secondary to good instruction. My TCM experience began with a fellow in Miami; when I moved back to my hometown twenty years ago, Brian Gray's school was the only one around practicing traditional kung fu. Master Gray himself had moved back to Delaware, to oversee the main branch - I never trained directly with him. But I took up his curriculum, and have continued ever since. You may deride the forms as illegitimate or lacking true lineage, but to me they serve a purpose: they give something to practice. I'm not making apologies for Master Gray's claims or how he conducts himself; that's his business. All I know is that he has been generous to me on several occasions (allowing me to attend his workshops for free, arranging lodging for me when I'd visit the main branch, etc.) I don't know who taught him, and, as I've said before, I don't care. I'm just an average Joe who doesn't care about winning trophies, or opening a school, or putting myself over on others in regards to my knowledge of martial arts. I just want to practice kung fu.

I won't invalidate your desire to put him down. If I didn't know him, I might feel the same way. ( Incidentally, his recipe for jow has worked for me - but maybe that's all in my head. ) Because I don't travel in recognized martial circles, I really only know you by your posts and a recent article in Kung Fu/T'ai Chi magazine. But I can tell that you know far more than I about these things, and I certainly respect your viewpoint.

By the way, I'm not always at my computer, so my apologies if I don't answer your posts right away. I'm not trying to dodge anyone - I work 40 hours a week, travel over a hundred miles a day to do so, and spend as much time as I can with my wife and kids. Keep posting! I'll get back to you.

[hungheikwan]

In my previous post I mentioned my "TCM training". It should read "CMA training".
( In the future I'll refrain from using acronyms. )

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I've been away from the forum for the last two weeks, but have to say that I'm impressed with the number of responses regarding iron palm and kung fu in general.
If one can get past the vitriol, there's a lot of intelligent discourse amongst the posting community. That's why I enjoy this forum so much.

As to the subject of this thread (which generated eight pages in two weeks!): whether you feel that Master Gray is legit or not, I respect your opinions, and understand, in some cases, your need to expose "phonies". The kung fu world is rife with those folk who would teach you "secret" forms, self-defense techniques, or just how to plain kick ass, and many of them are full of hooey. They're out to separate you from your money by teaching you just enough to keep you coming back to class.

Even if I listed the forms taught by Master Gray, the point is moot. He is semi-retired. Shao Lin San will be a memory in a few years. His Iron Palm training will be practiced by those who received it, without regard to your opinion. And, as I mentioned before, the curriculum is evolving under the direction of Shr Fu Ross Kellin to include more combat application (shuai jiao and san shou). Is this a legacy to be derided? In the end, what makes some forms or styles more legitimate than others? Shouldn't we ALL be practicing the forms set forth by Shao Lin Temple, if that's the case?

The truth is, when something works, it has value. And whether you get that knowledge from a 20th degree Grand Poobah or a dishwasher, is that knowledge any less valuable? But more to the point, is the knowledge applicable to everyone?
Bruce Lee got his core training from Yip Man, but, to my thinking, none of Yip Man's students ever approached Lee's skill. Playing the percentages, one might presume that Yip Man's system wasn't legit.

I personally think my kung fu sucks. But that's no reflection on Master Gray or any of my other teachers - it just encourages me to try harder, for MY own satisfaction.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who posted. Please continue to enlighten me.

Reply]
Actually, Bruce Lee was far from Yip Man's top student. Yip man had more than one who were by far the senior to Lee.

[Dale Dugas]

Somewhere amidst the sniping posts, I think you asked me a question.

For Ten Tigers: I use the term "san shou" to denote sparring which includes all four "chair legs" of kungfu - strikes, kicks, grapples, and take-downs. Master Kellin fields a team of fighters that compete in UFC and local bouts. He expects his kung fu students to train likewise.

For Mr. Dugas (no offense is intended by the title "mister"; I just don't know how you'd prefer to be addressed): I understand where you're coming from. Let me try to illuminate my situation. I live in central Florida, where "take-your-dough" schools exist on every corner. I don't have the financial resources to travel to Orlando or Clearwater to train with schools of "lineage". So even if I had to try to learn from a book or a Wing Lam video, if I want to study kung fu, my options are limited. I started my martial training in Wado-Ryu karate back in high school. When I went to college, I tried Yoshikai karate, Hapkido, and Aikido. Wherever my travels took me, I looked for the best teachers available, because even as a fledgling, I could see that style was secondary to good instruction. My TCM experience began with a fellow in Miami; when I moved back to my hometown twenty years ago, Brian Gray's school was the only one around practicing traditional kung fu. Master Gray himself had moved back to Delaware, to oversee the main branch - I never trained directly with him. But I took up his curriculum, and have continued ever since. You may deride the forms as illegitimate or lacking true lineage, but to me they serve a purpose: they give something to practice. I'm not making apologies for Master Gray's claims or how he conducts himself; that's his business. All I know is that he has been generous to me on several occasions (allowing me to attend his workshops for free, arranging lodging for me when I'd visit the main branch, etc.) I don't know who taught him, and, as I've said before, I don't care. I'm just an average Joe who doesn't care about winning trophies, or opening a school, or putting myself over on others in regards to my knowledge of martial arts. I just want to practice kung fu.

I won't invalidate your desire to put him down. If I didn't know him, I might feel the same way. ( Incidentally, his recipe for jow has worked for me - but maybe that's all in my head. ) Because I don't travel in recognized martial circles, I really only know you by your posts and a recent article in Kung Fu/T'ai Chi magazine. But I can tell that you know far more than I about these things, and I certainly respect your viewpoint.

By the way, I'm not always at my computer, so my apologies if I don't answer your posts right away. I'm not trying to dodge anyone - I work 40 hours a week, travel over a hundred miles a day to do so, and spend as much time as I can with my wife and kids. Keep posting! I'll get back to you.


Thank you for the post.

Honesty is one of the tenets of the system of Chinese martial arts that I teach. I am very transparent, and brutally honest.

It seems you are as well.

Brian Gray would learn a lot from you.

[Hardwork108]

Reply]
Actually, Bruce Lee was far from Yip Man's top student. Yip man had more than one who were by far the senior to Lee.

From what I have read Bruce Lee was hardly, if ever, taught by Yip Man directly.

[photo-master]

By: Carl Hamilton 12/04/2003

The jury found Brian Wayne Gray not guilty of multiple counts of child abuse, unnatural and perverted sex practice, second-degree sex offense and third-degree sex offense...Gray wept as the jury forewoman read the not guilty verdicts, standing beside his lawyer...The defense stipulated that Gray is a ****sexual at the outset of the trial as well Gray and a former student maintained a ****sexual relationship that included going to gay nightclubs together. The former student (Gray's jilted lover) became irate when Gray ended their relationship and started seeing another man. The other alleged victim conspired against Gray wanting to extort $30,000 from him.

http://www.ehow.com/members/KungFuMaster-articles.html

"How to Properly Translate Leviticus 18:22 - It Is NOT About Gays."

http://www.briangray.com/books.htm

"Grandmaster Gray in these two books, he disproves the myths that have been used for for so long to abuse GAY people."

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2018

Mr. Brian Gray claims that he is a close friend and dear kung fu brother of Master De Yang, but Master De Yang said that he only met him once and had a photo in front of the Shaolin Temple.

Here is Master De Yang's comments about Mr. Gray’s article:
æ—*ä̧*生有(think-up stories),
æ •é£ æ ‰å½±(speak or act on hearsay evidence),
å ¹æ̅›æ±‚ç–μ(try to find a quarrel in straw),
ä̧ å̂‡å ̂å® é™…(not writing according the facts).

[hungheikwan]

Wow. This thread was about Brian Gray's kung fu credentials, but you, Photo-Master, have really shown your ****phobic nature by posting that jpeg. Spend more time practicing your kungfu and less time on character assassination...unless you are just another "jilted lover".

[hungheikwan]

One more thing, Photo-Master: the forum rules state that "you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws." The jpeg that you posted is offensive, inflammatory, vulgar and hateful, and you have no right to foist your fifth-grader sense of humor on the rest of us. I believe that everyone has a right to their opinion, but YOU should be censured from this forum.

[photo-master]

...Photo-Master, have really shown your ****phobic nature. Sorry I do not have much time for FRAUDS, LIARS, and martial art instructors who use their dojo/kwoon to swoon little boys into sex.

GrAY has no skill, no lineage, and NO character to assassinate.

[Dale Dugas]

Brian Gray was sleeping with his students,

whether h o m o s e x u a l or hetero s e x u a l , sleeping with students is morally, as well as ethically wrong and unacceptable no matter what.

He was found not guilty of molestation. Not really an issue as he is guilty of sleeping with his students.

and it was not just one student but several.

hideous conduct for an instructor.

To defend these actions would make you the same as Gray.

[lkfmdc]

Brian Gray was sleeping with his students,

whether h o m o s e x u a l or hetero s e x u a l , sleeping with students is morally, as well as ethically wrong and unacceptable no matter what.



BINGO!

And the lies about his background and training and just making crap up are also reasons to give him two HUGE thumbs down

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread has became very disturbing...

[David Jamieson]

This thread has became very disturbing...

I dunno how so? Gray's been outted for some time now.

What I find humourous is all the people out there who don't get it yet that guys like Gray and his ilk are getting demolished by the free flow of information that the internet has provided us all with.

Some of the older people think that because they're not that great with sourcing information, then everybody else must be crappy at it as well.

It's one thing to have some armchair ufc guy in here telling us that our forms are all wrong and that he has the real, but it's another thing entirely when you do some research and find out that more than a few of the so called "masters" are nothing more than self interested and self absorbed hucksters who never had the real to begin with and have been pretending all along to have something when in fact, they got nothing or worse, they got falseness!

If we go to verifiable sources (style holders) and yes, this is where lineage count, we find that there are a few people who are not even inside of some of these lineages.

This has only come about since the internet really. Prior to that, no one had access to the world to ask the questions they wanted to ask.

Now we do. And we don't need intercession either, we can actually just go out into the world and look without ever leaving home. :)

I love the internets! They got a zen truthiness about them. lol :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno how so? Gray's been outted for some time now.

I don't care what his sexual orientation is, I doubt anyone does.


What I find humourous is all the people out there who don't get it yet that guys like Gray and his ilk are getting demolished by the free flow of information that the internet has provided us all with.

Some of the older people think that because they're not that great with sourcing information, then everybody else must be crappy at it as well.

yes, thank goodness for the information age, people are "ignorant" only if they choose to be, to an extent anyways.


It's one thing to have some armchair ufc guy in here telling us that our forms are all wrong and that he has the real, but it's another thing entirely when you do some research and find out that more than a few of the so called "masters" are nothing more than self interested and self absorbed hucksters who never had the real to begin with and have been pretending all along to have something when in fact, they got nothing or worse, they got falseness!

If we go to verifiable sources (style holders) and yes, this is where lineage count, we find that there are a few people who are not even inside of some of these lineages.

This has only come about since the internet really. Prior to that, no one had access to the world to ask the questions they wanted to ask.

Now we do. And we don't need intercession either, we can actually just go out into the world and look without ever leaving home.

I love the internets! They got a zen truthiness about them. lol

Here, here.
Alas, some still refuse to see...

[Lokhopkuen]

By: Carl Hamilton 12/04/2003

The jury found Brian Wayne Gray not guilty of multiple counts of child abuse, unnatural and perverted sex practice, second-degree sex offense and third-degree sex offense...Gray wept as the jury forewoman read the not guilty verdicts, standing beside his lawyer...The defense stipulated that Gray is a ****sexual at the outset of the trial as well Gray and a former student maintained a ****sexual relationship that included going to gay nightclubs together. The former student (Gray's jilted lover) became irate when Gray ended their relationship and started seeing another man. The other alleged victim conspired against Gray wanting to extort $30,000 from him.

http://www.ehow.com/members/KungFuMaster-articles.html

"How to Properly Translate Leviticus 18:22 - It Is NOT About Gays."

http://www.briangray.com/books.htm

"Grandmaster Gray in these two books, he disproves the myths that have been used for for so long to abuse GAY people."

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2018

Mr. Brian Gray claims that he is a close friend and dear kung fu brother of Master De Yang, but Master De Yang said that he only met him once and had a photo in front of the Shaolin Temple.

Here is Master De Yang's comments about Mr. Gray’s article:
æ—*ä̧*生有(think-up stories),
æ •é£ æ ‰å½±(speak or act on hearsay evidence),
å ¹æ̅›æ±‚ç–μ(try to find a quarrel in straw),
ä̧ å̂‡å ̂å® é™…(not writing according the facts).


In spite of all the bad press about him I am happy that Mr Grey was acquitted. The stigma of being charged with a sexual crime is an ugly thing. Whether the individual is found guilty or not, just being accused is enough to alter the course of life an career.

[AJM]

His brother tried to molest my sister. When I went to his dad about it his response was "so?". I bloodied his nose. Brian sent word through my brother that he was going to kill me. I told my brother to tell him to bring it on. I've been waiting for thirty two years. His brother came to his senses and appologized to my sister and my Dad. I consider him a stand up guy now. The rest of the family, meh. Sick and disfuntional.

[lkfmdc]

a 14 year old girl can tell you she wants to have relations with you, it is still illegal to do so

a 19 year old co-ed may tell a professor she has the hots for him, but he'd be wise not to take up the offer, most universities have rules against it

instructors are in a position where they can abuse power, they should walk carefully and strive for higher aspirations

[sanjuro_ronin]

a 14 year old girl can tell you she wants to have relations with you, it is still illegal to do so

a 19 year old co-ed may tell a professor she has the hots for him, but he'd be wise not to take up the offer, most universities have rules against it

instructors are in a position where they can abuse power, they should walk carefully and strive for higher aspirations

Well said.
Like I mentioned before, very disturbing.

[taai gihk yahn]

whether h o m o s e x u a l or hetero s e x u a l , sleeping with students is morally, as well as ethically wrong and unacceptable no matter what.

in most cases I agree; I will give an example of the "exception" to the rule, which is my taiji teacher, who met his wife in a short-term community ed. class he was teaching: he had no designs on her at all, and never approached her while the class was running: she approached him after it was over (he likes to joke about how cluelessly naiive he was that she was even interested in him), and they ultimately got married, have three kids and are together to this day ~25 years or so later; so it's not quite the same as sleeping serially with students, it's more to demonstrate how it might be appropriate for a lasting relationship to occur subsequent to a teacher / student one; otherwise, I agree - in a similar vein, I have seen this occur in a therapist to client / patient relationship, which, while some therapists I know seem to think is ok, is even more abhorrent because of the fundamentally unequal power dynamic, even more so than teacher / student, IMHO; and it's easy to get sucked in, because of the intense nature of the interaction, especially if there is manual treatment involved; in general, it's poor training of the therapist if that line is crossed (there are various skillful mechanisms for appropriately dealing with the client propositioning you directly or indirectly, keeping the boundary but not hurting their feelings; first and foremost you need to stay internally clear - that will diffuse 99% of it - the other 1% are those people coming in with a specific agenda, which is more difficult to turn down and still keep the client...); to me, it's also a sad commentary on a given therapist's social skills if they need to rely on this dynamic to get laid...

[Dale Dugas]

Hungheikwun,

I have to ask you if sleeping with your students is okay or not.

Brian Gray did just that, and admitted it in court.

Unacceptable whoever you talk to.

Is this still someone you want to follow or train with?

Are you one of his instructors?

if so why would you be loyal to someone who has the morals and ethics of a pig?

[bawang]

shi yan ming sleeps with his students no one ever critisizes him
i think it is wrong but i think a lot of big shots are doing it too and no one critisize thems

[lkfmdc]

shi yan ming sleeps with his students no one ever critisizes him

Shi Yan Ming is MARRIED to one of his students, is he still sleeping with other ones? :eek::confused::eek:

[GLW]

Well, maybe someone SHOULD criticize them for doing it.

I have known a number of instructors who seem to use their school and position at events, seminars, etc... to expand their sexual hunting ground... all the while preaching about Martial Ethics.

They should have learned the lesson I learned just out of college as an engineer :

Never accept anything from a vendor that you can't eat (and no, you REALLY can't eat that...)

Don't get your meat where you get your bread

And if it seems like you are breaking an ethical rule, you probably are.

[lkfmdc]

Well, maybe someone SHOULD criticize them for doing it.

I have known a number of instructors who seem to use their school and position at events, seminars, etc... to expand their sexual hunting ground... all the while preaching about Martial Ethics.

They should have learned the lesson I learned just out of college as an engineer :

Never accept anything from a vendor that you can't eat (and no, you REALLY can't eat that...)

Don't get your meat where you get your bread

And if it seems like you are breaking an ethical rule, you probably are.

we prefer to put it out there straight, we say

"do not **** where you eat, PERIOD"

everyone associated with me knows and lives by this.....

[bawang]

Shi Yan Ming is MARRIED to one of his students, is he still sleeping with other ones? :eek::confused::eek:

when i just started kung fu i heard people talk rumor he was sleping and when i saw him on tv he said theyre not married a few years ago

[lkfmdc]

when i just started kung fu i heard people talk rumor he was sleping and when i saw him on tv he said theyre not married a few years ago

I really don't keep up with the "monks (cough*BS*cough*crap*cough*sorrygene*cough) so I wouldn't really know except they always called her his wife (among other things they called her!) ;)

[photo-master]

In spite of all the bad press about him I am happy that Mr Grey was acquitted... Lokhopkuen, I am disappointed you feel this way.

https://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=243498&page=1

The stigma of sexual abuse for the victims lasts a life time. Just think how many people’s lives he has ruined with his actions. I’m glad this person (user name: jggab) is seeking therapy and has filed a sworn statement.

[hungheikwan]

NO, it is not alright for a teacher to sleep with their students. And, because I am not a direct student of Brian Gray (having really only met him on several occasions), I was not privy to the volumes of information that have surfaced in this thread. Am I shocked to hear these reports? Of course. Do I feel lied to? Not necessarily. I knew that he was gay, but I didn't hold it against him. ( He never made a move on me, and let me tell you, being in show business as I am, I know when a guy's hitting on me. )

I joined Shao Lin San after he left Florida to return to Delaware. His seniors students were my teachers, and even though there was no clear "lineage" other than Master Gray himself, the forms were practical. We trained in the curriculum and I was happy to have some kind of kung fu to explore. My contact with him included his visits to our school in Florida; on two occasions I flew north - once for an Iron Palm seminar, another to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the school. More recently ( November 2001 ) my instructor and I went up to Pennsylvania to help with a demonstration and the opening of a new studio. On all these trips, Master Gray was generous and kind, and showed more hospitality than I deserved.

The subject of Master Gray's teachers has come up from time to time, although I would never be so bold as to ask him directly. Besides, it never really mattered to me. His reputation - ill or otherwise - was broached in a very gentlemanly way to me by Master Nick Scrima, as we sat next to each other at the poker table. He remarked that Master Gray had raised some controversy in the martial world, but then he said nothing more. Not knowing the details, I had no response.

I am not a "closed door" student of Master Gray, so I don't owe him that level of loyalty. I'm not an instructor in his school, because Shao Lin San doesn't exists anymore, as far as I know. I AM an instructor for his (currently) senior student, although we have radically changed the curriculum; we don't even wear the uniform of Shao Lin San, and there are no references to Master Gray. As to the question of following someone who has "the morals of a pig", I myself am not perfect. I haven't engaged in this kind of behavior, but it would be wrong of me to pass judgement. I feel sorry in hindsight for the circumstances that led to his vilification, but I won't denounce him. Nor will I defend him. His actions led him to this place, where he has attracted the contempt you all exhibit. Looking over the body of evidence and vitriolic emotions triggered by this thread, I can see that you are justified in your feelings. I have no rebuttal to offer.

[photo-master]

Martial arts instructor accused of sex offenses

By: Dewey Fox 04/15/2003

According to Smith, Gray first came under scrutiny on March 30 when one of his former martial arts pupils came forward and told authorities that Gray had sexually assaulted him on several occasions. The victim, whose name was not released, is a 32-year-old white male. The alleged sex offenses began in 1984 when he was 13, police said.

At the time of the offenses, Gray owned the Shao Lin San Kung Fu School at 111 W. Main Street, Elkton. The victim told state police investigators Gray had kept him at the studio after the martial arts lessons had ended and molested him. The studio has been closed for a number of years. Police also allege Gray brought the boy to his Mountain Hill Road residence near Perryville where he allegedly performed sex acts with him and took pictures and videos.

The victim informed investigators that these incidents began in 1984 and continued on a weekly basis for the next four years. The alleged offenses ended when the boy was 17, police said. Delaware police arrested Gray on Tuesday, April 8, and held him until Friday when he was extradited to Cecil County. A district court commissioner set his bond at $65,000, a figure Gray has been unable to meet. Smith said the victim has named other students of Gray's studio who had also been sexually abused. As it stands, no charges have been filed against Gray in any of those cases. However, the investigation remains open, Smith said.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kung fu expert held in sex abuse
*Del. teacher faces charges in Md.

By: TERRI SANGINITI 04/16/2003

A longtime Delaware martial arts instructor has been charged with sex offenses by Maryland State Police in connection with the molestation of a 13-year-old karate student nearly 20 years ago. Delaware State Police arrested Brian W. Gray, 51, on fugitive charges April 8 at his Newport Kung Fu studio, 409 Meco Drive.

Gray was extradited Friday to Maryland, where authorities charged him with two counts each of second- and third-degree sex offense, and one count each of child abuse, perverted sex practice and sodomy. He is being held in the Cecil County jail after failing to post $65,000 bail, Maryland State Police Trooper Susan Smith said. Gray, who has been teaching martial arts for 32 years, has operated several Kung Fu schools in the area over the years, including in Elkton, Bear, Peddlers Village and Newport.

Smith said the victim, now is in his early 30s, came forward March 30 with the accusations against Gray dating to 1984. She did not say why the victim waited so long to report the alleged incidents. The victim, who was a student at the now-closed Shao Lin San Kung Fu School on West Main Street in Elkton, told police Gray allegedly molested him over a four-year period at Gray's Perryville, Md., home.

Gray, who bills himself as the "the father of the Iron Palm in America," was credited in the January issue of Inside Kung-Fu magazine with helping to popularize the iron palm technique, a Chinese kung fu skill involving physical hand strikes coupled with the use of the mind. The magazine called Gray one of the 30 most influential Chinese stylists of the past 30 years. Smith said the investigation is continuing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sex offender case realigned
*Grand jury to determine charges

By: Carl Hamilton 05/08/2003

Now prosecutors will attempt to charge Gray through a grand jury indictment, all part of some technical maneuvering on the state's part, Eastridge explained. "The decision to drop the charges as filed in district court in this case was purely a strategic one. It is not, in any way, indicative of a decision not to pursue prosecution in this case,'' Eastridge said. He continued, "In fact, it is my intention to present this case to the grand jury, which meets in the middle of this month, and it would be my expectation that an indictment will be forthcoming following that grand jury session."

Assistant State's Attorney Brenda Sexton dropped all eight counts against Gray on Wednesday in Cecil County District Court, as directed by Eastridge. The list of dropped charges included child abuse, second-degree sex offense, sodomy and engaging in unnatural and perverted sex practice. Sexton dropped the case during a court docket that included a preliminary hearing for Gray. In doing so, the prosecutor made Gray's preliminary hearing unnecessary and, as a result, one never occurred.

In a preliminary hearing, prosecutors typically call their witnesses to testify in an effort to convince a judge that enough evidence exists to warrant a criminal trial for the defendant. Those state witnesses also are subject to cross-examination by the defense. A preliminary hearing, therefore, gives the defense an early look at the state's case. Without a preliminary hearing, the defense must wait until the "discovery" phase of the case to learn what evidence prosecutors possess. "Well, I guess I won't get my fishing expedition,'' commented Gray's defense attorney, Harry D. Barnes III, after prosecutors dropped the case Wednesday morning.

On Tuesday, Barnes told the Whig that he looked forward to the preliminary hearing. "My client maintains his innocence," Barnes said. "I want the opportunity to question these criminal investigators. I filed this motion for a preliminary hearing because I want to find out what (prosecutors) have." If prosecutors seek charges against Gray through a grand jury indictment, though, Barnes won't have such an opportunity. He won't even be permitted in the grand jury room. The grand jury, a 23-member panel that usually convenes once a month in circuit court, hears the state's cases in relative private.

As chief prosecutor, Eastridge calls state witnesses to testify and then the grand jury determines if it should indict the defendant, based on the evidence presented. With no defense lawyers present to cross-examine the witnesses, a grand jury session is a one-sided affair. According to Eastridge, several factors prompted him to charge Gray in district court last month instead of a seeking a grand jury indictment, which automatically places a case in circuit court and makes a preliminary hearing unnecessary. Eastridge declined to detail those reasons on the record, explaining that he didn't want to publicize sensitive information about the police investigation.

He opted to forgo the district court charges and seek a grand jury indictment instead after discussing it with the case's lead investigator, Tfc. Susan Smith of the Maryland State Police. "This wasn't some rogue decision on my part," Eastridge noted. Gray is accused of engaging in various sexual acts with a teen-aged boy who attended his Shao Lin San Kung Fu School in the 100 block of West Main Street in Elkton in the 1980s. (The school no longer exists here.)

The complainant, now 32, alleges that Gray sexually abused him almost weekly, starting when he was 13 and ending when he quit the martial arts school at age 17, according to court records. It began shortly after the boy started to attend Gray's kung fu school in January 1984, court records show. According to court records, Gray sexually abused the boy at his martial arts studio after class and, on numerous other occasions, at Gray's residence in the 500 block of Mountain Hill Road near Perryville.

The Maryland State Police launched an investigation March 30 after the complainant contacted the agency. Police arrested Gray early last month, and he later posted a $65,000 bond. Court documents indicate that the police investigation remains open.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[photo-master]

Main head Grand jury indicts Gray in sex abuse
* 3 former kung fu students involved

By:Carl Hamilton 05/20/2003

Gray faces multiple counts of child abuse, second-degree sex offense, third-degree sex offense and unnatural and perverted sex practice, Eastridge reported. The state will make arrangements with Gray's attorney, Harry D. Barnes III, to serve Gray with charging documents sometime this week and then handle bond issues, Eastridge said. Officials released Gray on $65,000 bond last month after police charged him with eight counts in the original case in Cecil County District Court.

As part of some technical maneuvering, however, the state dropped all eight of those preliminary charges May 7. Eastridge opted to pursue a grand jury indictment in Cecil County Circuit Court instead. The new criminal case against Gray addresses three alleged victims, not one. "What happened between the filing of the first charges and today is that two more victims are willing to come forward now," Eastridge said Monday after presenting his cases to the grand jury. Barnes could not be reached for comment Monday. Two weeks ago, while discussing the original case against Gray, Barnes said, "My client maintains his innocence."

The original case related to one former student, now 32, who alleged that Gray engaged in various sexual acts with him at his Shao Lin San Kung Fu School in the 100 block of West Main Street in Elkton in the 1980s. (The school no longer exists here.) That complainant alleged that Gray sexually abused him almost weekly, starting when he was 13 and ending when he quit the martial arts school at age 17, according to court records. It began shortly after the boy started attending Gray's kung fu school in January 1984, court records show. According to court records, Gray sexually abused the boy at his martial arts studio after class and, on numerous other occasions, at Gray's residence in the 500 block of Mountain Hill Road near Perryville. The Maryland State Police launched an investigation March 30 after the complainant contacted the agency. Police arrested Gray in early April.

"He (the complainant) also stated that Gray would take photographs and videos of him performing sexual acts with other students in the class,'' according to a report filed by lead investigator, Tfc. Susan Smith. Detectives were able to contact three of the 11 alleged victims identified by the original complainant and, at the outset, they wished to remain anonymous, court records show. "All three male victims do not have a criminal history, are gainfully employed, and two now have families of their own ... All three victims have not had contact with each other or the defendant since they were teenagers," Smith noted in her report. Two of those alleged victims have since waived their anonymity to testify as state witnesses, Eastridge said. Meanwhile, the original complainant maintains his sexual abuse allegations in this circuit court case, Eastridge added.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kung fu instructor not guilty
* Gray innocent of sex charges

By: Carl Hamilton 12/04/2003

Brian Wayne Gray didn't sexually abuse two students in his now-defunct kung fu school in Elkton about 20 years ago, according to a jury verdict returned Wednesday. The Cecil County Circuit Court jury deliberated about an hour at the conclusion of his three-day trial before acquitting Gray, 52, of Perryville, of all 18 criminal charges against him. The jury found Gray not guilty of multiple counts of child abuse, unnatural and perverted sex practice, second-degree sex offense and third-degree sex offense.

Gray wept as the jury forewoman read the not guilty verdicts, standing beside his lawyer, Harry D. Barnes III, at the defense table. In his closing argument Wednesday morning, Barnes maintained that the two alleged victims conspired against his client -- one wanting to extort $30,000 from him and the other seeking payback as Gray's jilted gay lover. (The defense stipulated that Gray is a h-o-m-osexual at the outset of the trial.) "The motive is money. The motive is bad blood," Barnes told jurors. According to Barnes, the mere allegations of sexual abuse against his client forced Gray to close a kung fu school he had been operating elsewhere because parents pulled their children. "It's called the sex game, and it can ruin your life," Barnes said, referring to making child abuse claims for ulterior motives. He continued, "Everything my client has worked for 32 years is gone. Even if he's acquitted, he'll carry this stigma for the rest of his life."

Assistant State's Attorney Keith A. Baynes, meanwhile, questioned the plausibility of the alleged victims jeopardizing their careers and families -- one is married with children -- to accuse Gray of committing offenses 20 years ago. "It took a lot of courage for them to come here ... to tell you about these horrible and terrible things,'' Baynes said. The alleged victims told their stories to numerous "strangers" in this legal process, including police investigators, prosecutors, judges and jurors, Baynes noted. According to Baynes, Gray took advantage of the students' respect for him as a kung fu competitor with a high national ranking, in addition to him being their marital arts instructor. The alleged victims didn't come forward as children because Gray told them that they, as well as he, would be arrested for the sexual contact, Baynes said. Nor did they contact authorities as young adults because of shame, which they also felt as children, he added. But one of the alleged victims "couldn't take it anymore" by last March, according to Baynes.

That former student, now 32, blamed his chronic drug abuse, depression, suicidal tendencies and his own sexual deviation on the sexual abuse he allegedly suffered as a child and concealed for 20 years. By the former student's own admission, he served time in prison after being convicted in 1993 of molesting a boy. The former student said he later dedicated his life to Christ, gained sobriety, and decided to "start the healing process for my closure" by dealing with his sexual abuse. A Cecil County grand jury handed up the indictment against Gray last May after a Maryland State Police investigation prompted by the former student's allegations. The probe led to another former student who also claimed that Gray sexually molested him in the 1980s. According to court records, Gray allegedly engaged in various sexual acts with them at his Shao Lin San Kung Fu School in the 100 block of West Main Street in Elkton and at his Perryville residence. It allegedly occurred routinely for approximately three years for one student, and a year-and-a-half for the other, ending when both students left the school, court records show.

In his closing argument, Barnes stressed that the first alleged victim to speak with authorities had monetary reasons to accuse Gray. That former student asked Gray to give him $5,000 in 1993 to pay for a lawyer after authorities charged him with child abuse, Barnes said. And when Gray declined, the former student vowed to get even, he added. Barnes said the former student had been fixated on Gray for years, following his martial arts accomplishments. Last January, that former student ordered Gray to pay him $30,000 to prevent him from making sexual abuse allegations against him, Barnes said. The state, meanwhile, maintained that the two alleged victims hadn't seen or interacted with Gray -- nor each other -- since attending the kung fu school in the 1980s. Both former students denied the extortion allegations made by the defense.

Baynes also questioned why Gray didn't report the blackmail threats to police if they did, indeed, occur. The other alleged victim conspired against Gray because Gray had jilted him, according to Barnes. Gray and that former student -- an adult at that point -- maintained a h-o-m-osexual relationship that included going to gay nightclubs together, Barnes said. The former student became irate when Gray ended their relationship and started seeing another man, Barnes added. According to the former student's testimony, he hadn't seen Gray since leaving the kung fu school back in the 1980s and, therefore, didn't have any such relationship with him. Both former students denied being gay. In his closing argument, Baynes referred to Barnes' various allegations against the alleged victims as a "defense in the making," suggesting he offered explanations after reviewing the state's case. The prosecutor told the jury, "It all boils down to who are you going to believe."

[AJM]

Brian is a liar. Plain and simple.

[Shaolinlueb]

i had a student who was trying to start a "cult". he then said he was using it to get women into sexual relations with him. then he tried to recruit my students into his "cult" i had to ask him to leave. he told them it was a bible study group. :rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

Expressing confidence in religious matters is the easiest way to get a woman in bed. Anybody who does that is a scumbag.

[photo-master]

i had a student who was trying to start a "cult"....then he tried to recruit my students into his "cult" i had to ask him to leave. he told them it was a bible study group. :rolleyes:

Mixing/turning martial arts into a cult is bad news. However even worse yet is when you pervert the word of GOD to sway peoples beliefs. This is why my righteous indignation flares up with Brian gray.


“Fight Bible Thunpers with the Bible!” http://www.planetout.com/msgbrd/read.html?board=433&id=318552

You can order my new books,“Sodom and Gomorrah - The Anti-Gay Myth”, and “Leviticus Revealed - The Truth." My next book in this series will be titled "Daniel - The Gay Prophet," because Daniel was a gay man. I will be following that one with one on the abuse of the words in the book of Corinthians. My website is www.briangray.com . Go to the catalogue section, and you will find them under the Books section.

And, if you want to see my credentials, you can go to either www.ultimateironpalm.com or www.briangray.com . Either one will show you that I am a serious author. I just happen to be a gay Christian with a degree in Theology and Biblical Languages, as well.
-----------

Brian Gray has flipped his wig. I bet his degree in theology is as fake as his martial art lineage...

[teetsao]

brian gray is a hack. plain and simple. he will not share his lineage or say who his teacher was/is. yet he calls all others who study iron palm that supposedly came after him,"self taught" and say that they all copied him, and he states on his site, he keeps "files" on all of these people. he is a stain on the martial arts community. i do not want his name popping up when people do a search on iron palm. i would rather james lacy's name come up before this j-a-c-k-a-s-s-es. his name needs to be wiped from the martial arts community,period. he is a f**king embarrasement to the iron palm community. so what if he wrote a couple of books about iron palm basic conditioning, any one could have done that, they just chose not to. that does not mean he is the "father" of i.p. in america. ask g.m. gene chicoine or g.m. doo wai about that self proclaimed title.when they were teaching it back in the 70s' but kept the lid on it. if you support gray then you are either,naive,stupid or just don't know. if you don't know then i forgive you, but now the info is out.
i will not even get into the blasphemous statements he has made about the prophets of GOD. i will leave him and all else with this tidbit of wisdom,"be not decieved,for GOD is not mocked,for whatever a man soweth,that shall he also reap". Gal.6: 7
the man is treading on thin ice when you go against the Almighty.

[photo-master]

San Francisco Syphilis Alert
http://www.planetout.com/msgbrd/read.html?board=136&base=!!!q&sernum=197280&go=next

"Hail, Kung Fu, Full of Crap, 
PlanetOut is with Thee, 
Blessed Art Thou Among f-a-gs, and 
Blessed Are the Fleas in Thy Rat Fur Wig. 
Holy Brian, Butt kisser of PlanetOut, 
Pray for Us Outcasts, 
Now, and at the Hour of Our Suspension. 
Amen
----------visit http://www.briangray.com and see 10-yr-old pictures of the Master Brian Gray, himself!------------------------------------------------------"

[teetsao]

L.O.L. that is funny stuff.

[Lokhopkuen]

Lokhopkuen, I am disappointed you feel this way.

https://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=243498&page=1

The stigma of sexual abuse for the victims lasts a life time. Just think how many people’s lives he has ruined with his actions. I’m glad this person (user name: jggab) is seeking therapy and has filed a sworn statement.

It would seem he has made a few mistakes and many enemies.
I'm sorry he injured your life and relations.

[photo-master]

It would seem he has made a few mistakes and many enemies. I'm sorry he injured your life and relations.

No need for you to feel sorry for me, the man has never harmed me in any way (physical or other). I however do take issue with his lack of real kung fu lineage and his anti-scriptural, pro-gay perverted version of Christianity. As well him not paying his debt to society, that being spending several years behind bars for his crimes perpetrated against his students.

I guess he got his black belt in Iron Palm the same place he got his Divinity Degree. LOL

[Razaunida]

You know that iron palm guy whose name sort of sounds like Brian Ghey?

He started slippin it to his padowan learner.

Makes me think of all those gay dudes who say that pedophillia and hebephillia have nothing to do with humosexuality....and then I think of Bran Ghey and I think...Yeah right.

Its also a good reminder that you shouldn't sleep with your students. And yet another reminder that you shouldn't turn your padowan learners gay and then sleep with them.

This is a lesson in wu de. One time in an article Brian Ghey said he slapped his dog and scrambled its brains and so he would only use his palm to caress. Now I think he went too far and he might have been better off slapping dogs in the head.

That young man went to be a shaolin monk and ended up being a choir boy. Let this be a lesson. Never let your sifu enter you for any reason...with his painis. A lesson we can all learn from.

Does your school have rules of sexual ethics? In my kwoon queers are allowed, but they get expelled if they sport wood during applications. This way its fair to everyone.

One time I shagged my kung fu sister on the mats. It smelled like sweaty men so it was good for her and just okay for me. After that she quit....because she felt weird and because she was 35 and I was only 15 at the time.

[Hebrew Hammer]

6th grade can be a tough 5 years for some people.

[taai gihk yahn]

You know that iron palm guy whose name sort of sounds like Brian Ghey?

He started slippin it to his padowan learner.

Makes me think of all those gay dudes who say that pedophillia and hebephillia have nothing to do with humosexuality....and then I think of Bran Ghey and I think...Yeah right.

Its also a good reminder that you shouldn't sleep with your students. And yet another reminder that you shouldn't turn your padowan learners gay and then sleep with them.

This is a lesson in wu de. One time in an article Brian Ghey said he slapped his dog and scrambled its brains and so he would only use his palm to caress. Now I think he went too far and he might have been better off slapping dogs in the head.

That young man went to be a shaolin monk and ended up being a choir boy. Let this be a lesson. Never let your sifu enter you for any reason...with his painis. A lesson we can all learn from.

Does your school have rules of sexual ethics? In my kwoon queers are allowed, but they get expelled if they sport wood during applications. This way its fair to everyone.

One time I shagged my kung fu sister on the mats. It smelled like sweaty men so it was good for her and just okay for me. After that she quit....because she felt weird and because she was 35 and I was only 15 at the time.

there really, REALLY needs to be a much more comprehensive screening process for troll applicants...:mad:

[SimonM]

there really, REALLY needs to be a much more comprehensive screening process for troll applicants...:mad:

I strongly agree. Back in the day trolls were at least able to string together a sentence of intelligible words and contained epic stories of juggling high on mushrooms as kung fu training.

This is just a poorly spelled bit of childish ****phobia. 0 internets awarded.

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah......one time.......when I was nine.........I shagged a 35 year old on the teeter-totter. She was so satisfied we met there every wednesday for the whoooooooole summer!!!

Then I woke up and my pillow was gone!:eek:

[lkfmdc]

I see another banning happening

[Razaunida]

What sort of sexual ethics do you have in your kwoon? Is this traditional or a modern addition to wu de?


I was admittedly a little drunk when I posted so it wasn't a very direct question, sorry for the confusion.


I also wonder if maybe this Sifu had a qi deviation that caused him to have hamusexuality. Perhaps his qi gong practice was off. Maybe this is why his student also became imbalanced.

I did sleep with my kung fu sister and broke the school rules. I felt bad about it and lost the school one student. It also wasn't very good. She was recently divorced and sort of looked away the whole time.

[Razaunida]

I see another banning happening


Why are you not banned? You say many bad things, actually you suck. You are fat and lazy, had a good teacher, but understood nothing.

I also saw a video of you easily getting your ass handed to you. You say you make money at your school...congratulations...you teach aerobics!

You are an epic failure and make me sad. If I post as much as you maybe I will become a lazy failure too...you inspire me to practice more. Maybe this is why you have so many students, you motivate them to work hard and not be like you.

I picture you training them while sitting down eating a breakfast burrito.

[bawang]

kung fu teachers assrape their students mentally and financially, he does it literally. i dont see whats so wrong with that.

[taai gihk yahn]

Why are you not banned? You say many bad things, actually you suck. You are fat and lazy, had a good teacher, but understood nothing.

I also saw a video of you easily getting your ass handed to you. You say you make money at your school...congratulations...you teach aerobics!

You are an epic failure and make me sad. If I post as much as you maybe I will become a lazy failure too...you inspire me to practice more. Maybe this is why you have so many students, you motivate them to work hard and not be like you.

I picture you training them while sitting down eating a breakfast burrito.

lol, another moron with a keyboard and the fantasy-fu chip on his shoulder who thinks he understands anything;

[David Jamieson]

lol, another moron with a keyboard and the fantasy-fu chip on his shoulder who thinks he understands anything;

I bet he has girlish hips and an emo haircut too...


lol

[Razaunida]

Tai Gook Yawn, You only say that because he is your Brian Ghey and you love him so much.

Actually you are also fat and you suck, although you intellectually can comprehend what is supposed to happen you can't embody it.

Why do fat teachers have fat students and great teachers have fat students too...because you are lazy.

[taai gihk yahn]

What sort of sexual ethics do you have in your kwoon? Is this traditional or a modern addition to wu de?
lol, another wu de zombie...


I was admittedly a little drunk when I posted so it wasn't a very direct question, sorry for the confusion.
sadly for you, being sober does not improve the quality of your posting


I also wonder if maybe this Sifu had a qi deviation that caused him to have hamusexuality. Perhaps his qi gong practice was off. Maybe this is why his student also became imbalanced.
you are an idiot if this is how you conceptualize the issue; I weep for anyone who has the misfortune of your tuition


I did sleep with my kung fu sister and broke the school rules. I felt bad about it and lost the school one student. It also wasn't very good. She was recently divorced and sort of looked away the whole time.
you are pitiful

[taai gihk yahn]

Tai Gook Yawn,
I see what you did there; nice


You only say that because he is your Brian Ghey and you love him so much.
no; it's because you're an idiot, and because you're an idiot;


Actually you are also fat and you suck,
really? interesting; well, you might be right - if so, kindly provide evidence to substantiate both of these claims (e.g. - photos / vids of me doing stuff, or even verbal report of what you have seen me do in the past); OTOH, you may just be saying this to say it; which is it?


although you intellectually can comprehend what is supposed to happen you can't embody it.
hm; also interesting; please explain what you mean by this: when you say "embody", what specifically?


Why do fat teachers have fat students and great teachers have fat students too...because you are lazy.
yes, I am lazy; never did a hard days work in my life :rolleyes:

[Razaunida]

You don't understand wu de, because you are a fat loser who never trained hard. This is why you understand so little. Even if you trained hard, your teachers were still Guandong hillbillies so maybe that is why you have no honour.

You hate Chinese culture so much, then do you catch wrestling.

I am pitiful? Okay, pity me, I am pitied by an overweight bald man who spends all of his free time on forums. This is why you are fat.

[Razaunida]

Hah, I reply to myself.


Actually Tai gik whan, I like you and think we can be best friends. Even though I disagree with you, its true that you are smart, even though you are always wrong.

I like smart people.....we can be good friends, cheers.

[taai gihk yahn]

You don't understand wu de, because you are a fat loser who never trained hard. This is why you understand so little. Even if you trained hard, your teachers were still Guandong hillbillies so maybe that is why you have no honour.

You hate Chinese culture so much, then do you catch wrestling.

I am pitiful? Okay, pity me, I am pitied by an overweight bald man who spends all of his free time on forums. This is why you are fat.
your trolling is pretty bad; you need to come up with better material and not just repeat the same thing over and over; otherwise it gets boring reading you

FYI, my teacher is from Guandong originally, but moved here as a child, went to Hackley and then graduated from Princeton where he studied psychology and Chinese classical literature; so he's really more of a "smarty pants" than a "hilbilly"; or were you talking about someone else?

[bawang]

he plagarized my trolling. he is without honor

[taai gihk yahn]

he plagarized my trolling. he is without honor
I doubt his penus can hold as much mayonnaise as your can...

[Razaunida]

I have honour and Bawang, everyone knows that Guangdong ren are tu bao zi.

Good he went to princeton...had no time to train, taught you kata and you are happy, good. You are the fat expert. You win!

[taai gihk yahn]

I have honour and Bawang, everyone knows that Guangdong ren are tu bao zi.

Good he went to princeton...had no time to train, taught you kata and you are happy, good. You are the fat expert. You win!

<shaking head sadly> ah, we had such hopes for you;

oh, for the halcyon days of the Judo Katana once again <sigh>

[Razaunida]

now you are my friend.

Teach me how to do kung fu like you.

step 1. Talk

step 2. masturbate

step 3. sleep.

[lkfmdc]

Razaunida has not made any friends yet


LOL, but Gene, really, we need better trolls

[Razaunida]

people who don't agree with you are not trolls.

They may just be people who actually practice and know better.

[lkfmdc]

"I am not a troll!" is the first thing real trolls say

As opposed, to say, ME, who tells you yes I am a troll! I am also Gene Ching's trolling account FYI :rolleyes:

we get it, mommy left the cooking wine out and you got a little drunk, and today she's at the clinic getting the shots for her rash, so you have time to play...

But really kid, for your own good, go outside and play in the fresh air

why, I'd even suggest going out and playing in the traffic :p

[Razaunida]

I am in your school and you don't know who I am. How can you be so dense? We all know you are a fool, but you have a good training space.

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord, someone needs to write a book "trolling for idiots" and get them some new material...

pst, over here, that room you are in, with the padded walls, it isn't my gym LOL ;)

[hskwarrior]

is he following me still?

[SimonM]

Www.memebase.com might as well call it trolling for dummies. For advanced classes try 4Chan. You're welcome.

[Scott R. Brown]

What we got here is someone who has already been banned, back under a different name! Anyone want to guess who it is?

[Razaunida]

anyone want to guess why this forum is still called a kung fu forum? No one wants to even talk about Chinese Martial arts, much less practice them.

[Scott R. Brown]

anyone want to guess why this forum is still called a kung fu forum? No one wants to even talk about Chinese Martial arts, much less practice them.

Yeah, but not you! You would rather talk about shagging a 35 year old woman on the mats of your school when you were 15!

What a loser you are!

[Razaunida]

you are projecting and jealous because you don't know very much and are too proud to be silent and learn.

[lkfmdc]

Razaunida at his computer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8pR1rZZHEs

discuss ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

this guy does sound like someone else that posted on here awhile back....hum....:cool:

[bawang]

does anyone want buy my special iron plam formla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr5Vta0gMTY

[donjitsu2]

now you are my friend.

Teach me how to do kung fu like you.

step 1. Talk

step 2. masturbate

step 3. sleep.


http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/uploads/sPuDd/2009-05-26_223513_ForumBanStick.jpg

Ban him.

He's not even a funny troll like bawang.

[lkfmdc]

Ban him.

He's not even a funny troll like bawang.

+1

(he needs to go to remedial trolling 101)

[SimonM]

One of the first things a troll should learn is that by getting everybody on one side antagonistic to him he's making it so that he is essentially being an anti-troll. Everybody gets the opportunity to troll him without much likelihood of consequence because, hell, they are only giving as good as they got.

Oh and the swear filters are set too strong still, ****tail and ****genize are not swears.