Flawed transmission

[Ben Gash]

I've been a little quiet recently, and I thought I'd share some of my musings.
Why do students overcomplicate things? Increasingly of late I've noticed that my students keep adding superfluous movements into their forms, extra little flowers and hand turns that serve no purpose and I certainly didn't teach them. Some of my students seem to have this subconscious desire to look like a Shaw Brothers movie :rolleyes: This then led me to think are some of the impractical "advanced" transitions that you see in some forms simply a result of this?
This then spills over into the application drills. If I'm teaching a simple weight drop throw they keep trying to put extra steps, trips and turns into it. Last week I taught an application that simply went check, cling, pull and it took me half an hour simply because they kept putting extra little grip changes , steps and twists in and then couldn't make it work :rolleyes: Again, I'm thinking is this why you see so much BS overcomplicated application work in TCMA?
I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?

[5Animals1Path]

They may not be doing it on purpose. I dunno about other people, but stuff creeps into my form on a near constant basis. I'll think I'm doing something right, and train it more and more, only to find out later it was wrong.

And when training techinques, my Sifu could show me how to do it from every angle, give me a step by step dissertation on the mechanics behind it, then show me once more just to make sure, and f*cked if I don't take a wrong turn/step/strike somewhere.

For a last thought, though I rarely do this other then by myself, is to purposefully do the move differently, just to "play" with it, see if I can figure out what's making it tick, then go and talk to my Sifu about it. Doubtin this one though, since you didn't say anything about it.



Of course, if they are doing it on purpose, you might try letting it go, and then making them use it in an application. If they can't find a use for it, or are shown an opening they leave on it, only the hardest head won't figure out maybe he should stick to what he's taught. ;)

[TaichiMantis]

In my opinion, you get this problem when you teach forms without direct application training for each move in the form. My sifu loosely teaches the moves, then gives us corrections to improve each move. However, he mostly leaves the application to our immagination. I don't agree with this way of teaching. He says he doesn't want to limit us by showing us applications for each move. Phooey! If you show me at least one, then I can see the principle and meaning for the move in the form...I can then come up with more. If I can't picture an application for some move I think is meaningless in a form, you will find yourself in the bind you are now in with your students.

Just my two cents...;)

[TenTigers]

there is an expression, (I forget how to say it in Chinese)
"Which eye did you see me do that with?" Meaning,That's not what I showed you.
I also have a problem with people who "stylize" forms. I usually see this with pea**** types, who want to be in the spotlight. You create this at times, when you find a kid who has talent, you nurture it, create a top performer, and his ego takes over. You teach low stances, they do it too low. You teach a grab, they swirl their hands first. Then when you correct them, they get mad at YOU. Go figure.

[Becca]

I also have a tendency to let things creep into my forms. I also know of a few places in my forms where I was taught wrong because things had been creeping into the forms for years before Long Sh'r noticed it and disseminated the correction.

I have also noticed that it's much easier to keep the garbage out of the form by working the application of the form side by side with the ritualized version or the form. By ritualized, I mean that every form is at least a 2 person form, even if you were never taught the "other" side of it. And the one person version is ritualized. By working the single form with the prac-ap form, you can keep both from gaining fluff or loosing details.

For instance, in Pai Lum the first full prac-ap a student learns is for Chinese Soft Fist. I used to have a devil of a time with both the form and it’s prac-ap, called Chinese Soft Fist Self Defense. Then I figured out that I needed to work them as two halve to the whole rather than two separate forms with similar names.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My sifu loosely teaches the moves, then gives us corrections to improve each move. However, he mostly leaves the application to our immagination. I don't agree with this way of teaching. He says he doesn't want to limit us by showing us applications for each move.

Reply]
This is pretty rampant in Chinese Kung Fu...and why you can learn as much or more Kung Fu from the books today, than most live teachers.

[TenTigers]

we teach applications, and hands on drilling way before introducing the form. In this way, the student understands where their biody is to be, and the form is icing on the cake, and is much easier to learn. The goal is to teach fighting as the emphasis.

[David Jamieson]

Drill it out of them. It's the way you know. Who cares why they do it, just work on having them not do that anymore. Be patient.

[SevenStar]

I've been a little quiet recently, and I thought I'd share some of my musings.
Why do students overcomplicate things? Increasingly of late I've noticed that my students keep adding superfluous movements into their forms, extra little flowers and hand turns that serve no purpose and I certainly didn't teach them. Some of my students seem to have this subconscious desire to look like a Shaw Brothers movie :rolleyes: This then led me to think are some of the impractical "advanced" transitions that you see in some forms simply a result of this?
This then spills over into the application drills. If I'm teaching a simple weight drop throw they keep trying to put extra steps, trips and turns into it. Last week I taught an application that simply went check, cling, pull and it took me half an hour simply because they kept putting extra little grip changes , steps and twists in and then couldn't make it work :rolleyes: Again, I'm thinking is this why you see so much BS overcomplicated application work in TCMA?
I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?


grandmaster of the obvious says:

1. they are students
2. they are BEGINNING students

this is something I have thought about as well, but there is really no other way to explain it than that. Things that are simple for an experienced person may take multiple steps, grip changes, etc. for someone who isn't used to doing it. I have a student who had the hardes time learning a simple jab. she simply HAS to punch upward, then bring her fist downward, in a choo choo train fashion. she just can't push her arm straight out. I have several who have problems bobbing and weaving - seems easy enough, but when you aren't used to it, there are a lot of coordination issues that need to be worked out with bobbing and weaving. that forced me to break it down into multiple motions so that they could grasp each motion individually. that's just the way it is.

[Knifefighter]

I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?

Yeah, don't do forms in the first place. If you only do applications, there will be no room for anything that is superfluous. Forms work just begs for inefficiencies to be thrown in.

[Ben Gash]

You have an annoying habit of ignoring half a post knifefighter.

[Pork Chop]

Yeah, don't do forms in the first place. If you only do applications, there will be no room for anything that is superfluous. Forms work just begs for inefficiencies to be thrown in.

yeah i don't think forms are the great evil you make them out to be.
but then, on the other hand, i also don't think you learn fighting from the forms.

i like 'em more as a warm up- like yoga, but a little less granola-y (depending on the kung fu style) with more of a coordination aspect.
in the past, regularly doing one or two forms kept me warm, loosened up, and made me feel good.
lately, my interest in training to fight has really dropped off, so i'm looking to get back into form work to have something to do.

as far as not screwin forms up, video cameras & daily practice are your friends!

[Knifefighter]

Forms are B.S.

Want to make them less so?

Teach only applications and sparring.

Then let the students determine their own single person drills (or forms if you will) coming from what they have learned in application drills and sparring. This is what boxing does with shadow boxing, and BJJ and wrestling do with solo work.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

we teach applications, and hands on drilling way before introducing the form. In this way, the student understands where their biody is to be, and the form is icing on the cake, and is much easier to learn. The goal is to teach fighting as the emphasis.

Reply]
This is the real old school way of doing things....if everyone went back to it, there would be much better fighters out there than there are today.




Forms are B.S.

Want to make them less so?

Teach only applications and sparring.

Then let the students determine their own single person drills (or forms if you will) coming from what they have learned in application drills and sparring. This is what boxing does with shadow boxing, and BJJ and wrestling do with solo work.

Reply]
Forms were originally for the teacher, NOT the students. They give a more sport specific way of getting basic cardio and muscle memory retention for the teacher's solo practice as well as documenting the curriculum of the style and refining the mechanics of an experienced fighter. They have no place in the learning process. Form are really the LAST thing that should be taught.

[Knifefighter]

They give a more sport specific way of getting basic cardio and muscle memory retention for the teacher's solo practice as well as documenting the curriculum of the style and refining the mechanics of an experienced fighter. They have no place in the learning process. Form are really the LAST thing that should be taught.

LOL @ refining mechanics by doing stuff in the air. Refining your mechanics by doing stuff in the air would be like trying to perfect Tango dancing without a partner.

There is no need to ever teach forms. Anyone who wants to do forms dancing should make them up from what they already know.

[Pork Chop]

Forms are B.S.


everything's got a purpose
jumping jacks are bs in fighting too, but they make a decent warm up when you don't got a jump rope.

traditionally techniques came first.
you didn't get a form until you'd already banged out all the individual techniques and combos on the heavy bag and on your sparring partner(s) for about a year beforehand.

historically, it was upwards of a thousand years of chinese martial arts before they ever created a form- originally it was all just single techniques and combos; which (arguably) is why the stuff used to work.

still don't buy that forms are da debbil.
I use 'em the way a muay thai guy uses a ram muay before a fight- something to give you a good warm up, a good stretch, make sure your breathing's right, and help you get your balance.

[Knifefighter]

still don't buy that forms are da debbil.
I use 'em the way a muay thai guy uses a ram muay before a fight- something to give you a good warm up, a good stretch, make sure your breathing's right, and help you get your balance.

From a sports psychology standpoint, you would be better off to warm up, etc. by visualizing an opponent and then working offensive and defensive movments based on this in more of a freestyle manner, like shadowboxing does.

[Pork Chop]

From a sports psychology standpoint, you would be better off to warm up, etc. by visualizing an opponent and then working offensive and defensive movments based on this in more of a freestyle manner, like shadowboxing does.

gotta disagree here...

a good example is flexibility.
did boxing, thai, and san shou for the past 3 or 4 years almost exclusively.
when i first started out i still had great flexibility from the traditional training.
over time, even with a lot of shadow boxing, i managed to largely lose my flexibility.
i'm not just talking headkicks either, my teep turned into something slow & ugly- even though I'd throw over 20 a round.
going back to the old kung fu flexibility drills helped me get some of it back for a while, but not quite 100%.
the guy i know that never stopped going to kung fu won the wka nationals in muay thai and placed second in the worlds, largely with fast head kicks coming at odd angles.

another example is leg kicks.
leg kicks hurt, but they never really bugged me all that much early on.
i'd sink/root at the moment of impact, no biggie- might cramp for a half second, bruise for a day- no major bruises, no hard time walking.
fast forward a couple years, no more stance work. did leg work with squats & stuff, but not to the point of cramping like before. eventually the leg kicks started slicing through my thighs like a hot knife through butter - to the point of not being able to bear weight & getting really nasty bruises.

beyond that, the breathing exercise aspect to forms really does help. it's an intangible that's hard to quantify, but it really did make me feel better. was able to use those breathing exercises to keep from getting too winded or gassed in the ring. a large part of fighting endurance is relaxation & proper breathing.

yes, i'm not going to be fighting in a low horse stance.
yes, i'm not going to be throwing the exact full sequence that appears in the forms.
yes, for technique & visualization training it's sub par.
but it does have a place for some people.
different strokes for different folks.

[jmd161]

Forms are B.S.

Want to make them less so?

Teach only applications and sparring.

Then let the students determine their own single person drills (or forms if you will) coming from what they have learned in application drills and sparring. This is what boxing does with shadow boxing, and BJJ and wrestling do with solo work.


I don't know why you guys waste time trying to change this guys mind or teach him the importence of forms work, he will never understand or even try to comprehend what you're saying. The only way to even get someone like him to look at what you're trying to say is to show him on the mat. Then the next thing out of his mouth would be you're the exception. Until more people get off their arse and start showing people like Knifefighter that TMA can be applicable, they will never give TMA or forms work any credit.

They have met too many TMA people that talk a good game, and have no skill to back it up. Those that really understand forms know what they are for, just practice them and use them what they are for, and stop trying to convert the masses.


As far as the thread topic goes...

I agree with what sevenstar said, they are students and mainly begining students at that. It's common for people to add movements when they are learning. The reason being some techniques look a lot more flowery or complicated when you're watching someone else do it. Then when they go to use the techniques themselves, they try to duplicate what the technique looked like to them. You have to just work with them and they have to seriously train or they will never get the technique.


jeff:)

[Knifefighter]

The only way to even get someone like him to look at what you're trying to say is to show him on the mat. Then the next thing out of his mouth would be you're the exception. Until more people get off their arse and start showing people like Knifefighter that TMA can be applicable, they will never give TMA or forms work any credit.

Anyone who is any good is good despite their forms practice, not because of them.

[Water Dragon]

A lot of things can be classified as 'form'. Uchikomi is 'form', practicing repetetive armbars on someone is 'form', shadowboxing is 'form'. A lot of what CMA refers to is 'formwork' is common in martial sports. It's a very important part of training, and to totally dismiss it is just as bad as thinking it will give you some mystical fighting ability.

[WinterPalm]

Anyone who is any good is good despite their forms practice, not because of them.

You are wrong. Plain and simple.

Forms are a great training tool. Some for the fighting attributes they instill, others more so for their health and conditioning benefits. Many forms are a form of hard chi gong that does wonders for many areas of one's health.
Everything you do in training should have a strong carry-over to actual combative practice. Forms are designed to instill movement and mechanics which also requires actual application in live sparring.

I think you may be watching too many shaw brothers movies or something. I'm not talking anything magical or supernatural...just hard training and daily practice that gives you skill when done properly. Nothing more, nothing less.

[TenTigers]

developing intensity in my forms carried over into my fighting.
Some forms are an encyclopedia of the system, used to carry on the transmission. Is it nessecary? Nope, you could write it all down, but one-you could lose your precious notes, and two-many teachers were illiterate and forms were a way to pass down the entire system intact. If you are simply trainnig for yourself and have no plans to carry on the system, it doesn't concern you. Forms were for teachers as a personal refrence, and for lineage holders.
Certain forms train specific skills such as Sam Jien Kuen, and Sam Bo Gin They are sets but they are drills as well.
The argument against becoming a forms collector (unless it's your hobby) and the mistaken notion that learning the forms will transform you into the ultimate fighter, is a valid one, but why trouble yourselves over trying to educate ignorant people. That was never the idea behind forms, and people who actually believe that aren't the rule, they are the exception.
Argueing your point simply puts you in with them as you are showing that you really never understood the reason for forms in the first place.

[Laukarbo]

I somehow dont understand why people even try to defend the existence of forms...who gives a shyte what others think about forms...

how many million martial artists using forms in their art?

who cares if some of them think forms teach how to fight?

Whos Knifefighter to say they all wrong?

Just facking practice...

:D:D:D

[David Jamieson]

lets not forget knifefighter has a purpose here on this forum for us kungfu people. Now his purpose for you might be different than his purpose for me, but if we didn't have that irritating little weed in our garden, we wouldn't maintain it with the diligence required to make it a nice garden.

already our nice kungfu garden is over run with weeds, so we may as well regard them for what they are and try to plant more flowers and plants that are useful instead of fussing about the weeds all the time.

knifefighter doesn't like forms because he doesn't know or understand them. And so, he takes the position that they are useless on pretty much that angle alone. I would have to say that most people who are against the working of forms as part of a martial regimen probably don't know much about em.
Enough said there I think.


that's cool.

[rogue]

developing intensity in my forms carried over into my fighting.

I'd bet a bet a bowl of flan that it was more mental than the actual practice of doing forms.

[bodhitree]

but a little less granola-y


What's your beef with granola?




mmmmm beef with granola

[Knifefighter]

Do baseball pitchers practice pitching without throwing a ball? Do quarterbacks pretend to throw the ball to their ends? Do you see pro tennis players out on the tennis courts swinging their racquets endlessly without hitting any balls?

What do wrestlers, judokas, and BJJ players do when they practice or warm up before competitions? They grab a partner and go through their moves with a parnter.

Ever seen a race car driver practicing his driving while just sitting in an unmoving car? Or a swimmer practicing his swimming form by swinging his arms outside of the water?

TMA is the only activity where people don't recognize that it is unproductive to practice without the thing that is part and parcel of the activity itself (in this case, your opponent).

All other athletic activities in which people participate, the silliness of this is readily apparent to the participants.

[TenTigers]

Rogue-it was both. But in this case, the form was a vehicle to develop this intent. I am not saying it was the sole method, but one that was worth mentioning.
Forms utilize methods similar to NLP. Posture,vocalization, affect how you feel, eventually leading to a way of being. Correct breathing and vocalization
(hoi-sang, hei-hop) creates a link between body and mind.
Again, these are not the sole method, but simply one slice of the pie, that in my experience both personal and in teaching, has reaped results.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Boxers shadow box....

Forms practice is really for the advanced player who already knows how to fight as a method to further refine thier body mechanics.

BJJ/MMa fighters lift weights, but you would never see one try to lay down and start imitating a Bench press during a fight.

Golfers run through their swings to perfect thier form/mechanics in practice...with out hitting the ball.

Baseball players practice thier swings in the air to correct thier form/mechanics all the time.

Gymnasts do exercises specifically to develop and refine thier form/mechanics all the time....with out actually tumbling.

The list goes on, and on,and on.

Face it knifie, your just wrong here.

[TenTigers]

KF-a few questions:
1-why exactly do you think forms were created?
2-What was their original intent?
3-why is this no longer relevant?

[Pork Chop]

What's your beef with granola?


actually i eat it daily. nature valley mmmm
shoulda said "with a little less patchouli stink"



What do wrestlers, judokas, and BJJ players do when they practice or warm up before competitions?

Not that I really feel like arguing with you anymore, you give new meaning to the term "closed-minded"; but I've read the book and seen the documentary of Dan Gable "shadow-wrestling", with shots and stuff. I know quite a few BJJ guys that warm up with yoga and at least a couple judoka that will run through either a kata or a stringed combination of throws prior to a shiai to get their flow right. Don't see how it's any different.

Guys like Luke Cummo, Diego Sanchez, the crow, and George St Pierre already proved that your cookie-cutter approach to training isn't the only way to go. When even fighters are telling you you're full of baloney, you might want to re-evaluate. I'm sorry wing chun bit you in the hiney. Maybe forms don't work for you; but there are plenty of people who find them to be of some value.

For every anti-forms ally you've met on your jihad, I've met an equal number of legitimate stand up guys who are disgusted by the level of stand up in mma; guys who get really sick of the whole brainwashed mma mentality that says 2 hours of muay thai a week after bjj practice means they've got muay thai skill or that sloppy overhands equates to boxing.


To everyone else: sorry for keeping it going. It's just, a long time ago i figured KF had his views because he didn't think we fought/competed. Now that I've competed, I've trained people to compete, and i've worked with tons of people from various gyms who are successful at competing; I'm realizing he's just ignorant and biased.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ comparing weight lifting, shadow boxing, and judo and boxing warm-ups to forms work.


Gymnastics practice does this type of training because much of it is a solo, dance-oriented activity. This type of work is great for the dancing/presentation part of gymnastics.

If you want to be a dancer, keep doing your forms work.

[David Jamieson]

LOL @ comparing weight lifting, shadow boxing, and judo and boxing warm-ups to forms wor.


Gymnastics practice does this type of training because much of it is a solo, dance-oriented activity. This type of work is great for the dancing/presentation part of gymnastics.

If you want to be a dancer, keep doing your forms work.

Dude, you're a hypocrite. Look at your post above where you get creative with your comparisons.

And maybe, check out a dictionary and perhaps you could use a boxing lesson or two were you will here the words "work on your form" more than a few times. THis is pertaining to structure.

In boxing, you get shown the technique, you get shown the correct shape/form of launching the technique, you drill it in the air, you move to the bag and drill it, then to target mitts, then to an opponent.

so, your form is in place before you use anything on another person.

as for wrestling and bjj, what do you call all the exercises that augment your stuff or is it all matt work and weightlifting for you?

You're blind to what there is and in the meantime, anything you have is already had by everyone else + other have even more materials to work with.

You're like a caveman in your thinking. A caveman with a period and no ears on his head.

:p

[Knifefighter]

KF-a few questions:
1-why exactly do you think forms were created?
2-What was their original intent?
3-why is this no longer relevant?

1- Forms were created by theoretical non fighters based on how they thought fighting was supposed to happen.
2- To teach fighting based on the theoretical constructs of theoretical non-fighters.
3- They were never relevant.

[Knifefighter]

In boxing, you get shown the technique, you get shown the correct shape/form of launching the technique, you drill it in the air, you move to the bag and drill it, then to target mitts, then to an opponent.

These are drills... much different than running through a series of moves in forms.


so, your form is in place before you use anything on another person.

Form (as in structure) is much different that practicing a set series of moves in the air.


as for wrestling and bjj, what do you call all the exercises that augment your stuff or is it all matt work and weightlifting for you?

BJJ is all mat work and conditioning.

[David Jamieson]

1- Forms were created by theoretical non fighters based on how they thought fighting was supposed to happen.
2- To teach fighting based on the theoretical constructs of theoretical non-fighters.
3- They were never relevant.


Spouted by a true Loogan. That's the only words for this drivel :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Boxers shadow box....

shadowboxing is not static - it is not the same form over and over and over... I wouldn't really consider it a form.


BJJ/MMa fighters lift weights, but you would never see one try to lay down and start imitating a Bench press during a fight.

actually, you might... think about the pushing motion of a bench press, and then perhaps pushing someone who has sidemount on you, so that you can make space to escape.


I was actually gonna stay out of this debate, but figured I would chime in here.

[TenTigers]

ok, so you fall into the catagory of people who think forms were an imaginary fight against multiple opponents, or fight scenerios.
Well, no wonder. Who can blame yuo for your opinions on forms. If that were the case, we all would be against forms.
This misinterpetation of the reason for forms came many years ago, when US G.I.s were stationed in Asia, and started to be introduced to Martial Arts, such as Okinawan Karate. They were taught kata. When the Americans questioned their meaning-The teachers, using their limited English (because they certainly could not go into the sublties) basically just said, "It's an imaginary fight against multiple opponets. See? Here's one guy coming at you, you block his kick and then do this punch.."
The reality is, they should have said, "STFU and train, or GTFO, Gaijin!"
So these guys came back home with very basic knowledge-Shodan. Advanced beginner student level. STUDENT LEVEL!!! But Nooooo, they made Black Belt seem like it was the be all end all, and now they become SENSEIs and teach their BEGINNER"S LEVEL understanding of the art. And it spreads worldwide.
Bruce Lee, for all his contributions to Martial Arts, was just as ignorant on the subject as everyone else.
Let's add into the mix, that in the past several generations, the focus on fighting for real was less, and demonstrating forms to attract students was emphasized. Stances got bigger, wider, lower, slower, and movements became bigger, as well.

Like I said before, forms were originally taught last, (besides forms like sam jien and sam bo ging) and mostly to lineage holders, as a refrence or catalogue of the system in oreder to be passed down intact. Can you use a book? Perhaps, but you still need a coach to show you proper structure, alignment, power issueing, delivery. Otherwise a book is too static. A DVD doesn't correct tyou hands on or show all angles.
JKD is passed on pretty well without forms, but most of these guys have volumes of notse. Gu-Lou Wing Chun has no forms AFAIK, but a collection of san-sik, chi-sao, and wooden man. But you probably need a notebook to remember them all. Judo has hundreds of throws, Jiu-Jutsu has waza up the wazoo. These are not simply memorized either.
BUT-lose the notes, the volumes, the scrolls,and the entire system is lost.

So, you are correct in your opinions, but they are based upon false information.
"In the world of the blind..."

[Pork Chop]

shadowboxing is not static - it is not the same form over and over and over... I wouldn't really consider it a form.


how about bobbing & weaving drills under a rope?
very similar in form and purpose to most forms.

the dynamic-ness of a boxer's shadow really depends on what they're working on.
If a boxer's trying to perfect a 1-2-3 or a jab-body hook-head hook-uppercut then you're going to see a lot of the same combo over and over.
Same for stuff like creating angles: jab-parry-adjust angle-cross.

something interesting i've noticed is that boxers have shown how to do reaction/counter drills the correct way ie the mayweather padwork method. most kung fu schools i've seen do these partner drills ad nauseum & they don't seem to do much good, but i think the lessons to be learned from the mayweather style of pad work could do a lot to really make those kinds of drills worthwhile. we've reworked them for san shou and i'd love to rework them for a kung fu style. you'd probably have to break everything up into defending particular doors/gates instead of specific techniques, but it'd be fun.

[rogue]

Rogue-it was both. But in this case, the form was a vehicle to develop this intent. I am not saying it was the sole method, but one that was worth mentioning.

That's what I thought Ten, and I think it's an excellent use of forms.

IMO many people who do kata are expecting a long lost secret application to suddenly become known and automatically become usable, which of course is stupid, when an hour of actual training with a partner would get them further quicker.

[SevenStar]

how about bobbing & weaving drills under a rope?
very similar in form and purpose to most forms.


stop making sense.

I actually don't consider any single technique drill to be a form, be it shadowing a double leg or shuai chiao's "forms" that are one single technique as opposed to a string of techniques like most "forms". semantics, I suppose.

[Knifefighter]

how about bobbing & weaving drills under a rope?
very similar in form and purpose to most forms.

The difference between the shadow boxing and drills that sport fighters do and the forms that TMA practitoners do is that the sports fighters fighting is the exact same motions that are done in shadow boxing.

Watch a boxer shadow box. Watch him fight and you will see the exact same motions in fighting that you do in his shadow boxing.

Not so with TMA's and forms. Their fighting barely resembles their forms.

Lack of specificity is what makes forms useless.

[Pork Chop]

that's the thing though, somewhere along the way it stops being "techniques thrown in the air" and starts being a "form"; and of course as everyone knows these days "forms are bad 'mmmkaaayy".

I think the real problems are context and intent.
If your school's training consists of 60% or more forms training, then I think there's a problem.
If you're not drilling the techniques (actually hitting something), doing 2-person drills, or sparring (actually hitting someone); moreso than working on forms, then I think there's a problem.
If you're having to guess at the applications in your forms & how to fight with your stuff, then there's a problem. Having to occasionally figure out some of the advanced stuff on your own isn't such a bad thing, but you should definitely be given the skeleton or framework in which to work with.

forms as a training tool ain't evil.
forms alone in a vacuum of anything else that's important is.

[Pork Chop]

The difference between the shadow boxing and drills that sport fighters do and the forms that TMA practitoners do is that the sports fighters fighting is the exact same motions that are done in shadow boxing.

Watch a boxer shadow box. Watch him fight and you will see the exact same motions in fighting that you do in his shadow boxing.

Not so with TMA's and forms. Their fighting barely resembles their forms.

Lack of specificity is what makes forms useless.

I take it you've never trained in a boxing gym where they hang the bob & weave rope extra low in order to build leg strength.

[TenTigers]

KF-good points, there IS a difference between the way KFrs do forms and their fighting. For three reasons:
1-their teachers didn't teach them how to fight with KF. Why? Well one is because their teachers only did point sparring and kickboxing, so that's whatthey taught. I always wonder why their teachers didn't teach them? This brings them to
2- Their teachers didn't teach them. Not all good fighters are good teachers.
Maybe they couldn't transmit their knowledge.
Maybe they showed you once, and if you didn't get it, then you didn't get it.
Maybe they didn't have it.
3-then there are different types of forms. Forms are divided into Gung-Faht-those that teach structure, power development, etc
and Kuen-Faht-those that teach techniques
I always find this curious/funny: Wing Chun people all know that you don't fight like Siu Lim Tao,Chun Kiu, Biu Jee. It's the Sifu that brings it together in drills and fighting.(or should be)
Tai-Chi guys all know you don't fight in slow motion
and yet...people think you should look exactly like your forms-one of my pet peeves, because being a Hung-Ga guy, it seems that we are expected to stand in a horse stance, extend a bridge, and fight with one step movement throwing one bomb at a time. In fact, this is exactly what many people teach their students.
Could be why they kickbox, Could be why they turn to MMA! I have never been in or seen a fight that went down like that. Have you? Fights are fast, maniacal,furious barrages, which don't stop until you're done.
That's the way we train, and fight. And believe me,I catch alot of flak from Hung Ga guys who insist I am doing it all wrong. DILLIGAF

[Pork Chop]

Not to be dropping videos like dropping names, but this is one of the best series of clips I've ever seen to show techniques going from form to application to fighting.
Watch 'em all the way through.
Take note of the pad work.
Watch how the moves from the forms show up in their fights (the ones with gloves- not till clip 2, a lot in 3 & 4).
KF will probably just call it "flailing" but that's how they train; it's not boxing so the punches won't look like boxing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMgaDGw9NGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCOlCSKh31A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfgLD0Vw-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTSfbvmnDEI

[PangQuan]

what about some of these CMA guys that have lived through war and have been employed by their and other governments? These guys that have fought and killed in actual real life situations. Some of these guys used their martial arts, and even after all the REAL LIFE situations they still advocate the use of form in study.

granted its not sport these guys fought in but real life encounters. there have been many guys in the military in china that have practiced kungfu before AND after the wars they may have fought in.

they didnt have three five minute rounds with rules in place to protect them. violent fast deadly encounters. a real fight is quick, unexpected, and violent.

people who DID have REAL LIFE encounters with this stuff used and still used forms as ONE, count it ONE particular method of training.

the form will teach your body to react in a certain way, the form is in place for structure.

the main reason i bring this up is i just finished reading "The Making of a Butterfly"

W.C. Chen tells the author of the book at one point that he had used his kungfu in real life encounters MANY times, and was a STRONG advocate of form work.

The reason being, when you attack someone, to recieve the maximum benefit of your attack your structure/form must be precise, otherwise you are not using what you have been taught. you will not recieve the maximum potential of your attack if your form is not correct. This is why we practice form.

again for those who seem to forget. FORM IS A VERY SMALL PORTION OF THE TRAINING. Do not forget that.

Some people seem to think that if you practice form, then that is ALL you practice.

this is not thinking correctly, yes some people do practice this way, but dont look at those people.

that would be like thinking all NFL players suck because a 10 year old kid cant throw or run when he is playing foot ball.

not the same people.

[Wong Ying Home]

Form Technique Application.
Application, Technique Form
Technique, Form, Aplication.

TCMa is systematic in it's skill development. which ever way round the above is approached. However all three above must be a trained. If a person wants to round thier skill off, some peole just want to be fighters, no problem just teach them 10 techniques with variable applications and let them go, some want to learn a system, then they learn more. Some start simply wanting quick fighting skills and then they go deeper. and learn the system

Ten Tigers made some excellent points on the reasons why differences and so have Pork Chop and PangQuan

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think it's funny that a BJJ exponent should be trying to tell predominantly stand up fighters how to train anyway.

[SifuAbel]

I don't know why you guys waste time trying to change this guys mind or teach him the importence of forms work, he will never understand or even try to comprehend what you're saying. The only way to even get someone like him to look at what you're trying to say is to show him on the mat. Then the next thing out of his mouth would be you're the exception. Until more people get off their arse and start showing people like Knifefighter that TMA can be applicable, they will never give TMA or forms work any credit.

They have met too many TMA people that talk a good game, and have no skill to back it up. Those that really understand forms know what they are for, just practice them and use them what they are for, and stop trying to convert the masses.


As far as the thread topic goes...

I agree with what sevenstar said, they are students and mainly begining students at that. It's common for people to add movements when they are learning. The reason being some techniques look a lot more flowery or complicated when you're watching someone else do it. Then when they go to use the techniques themselves, they try to duplicate what the technique looked like to them. You have to just work with them and they have to seriously train or they will never get the technique.


jeff:)

ditto.......

Students always over complicate things. When they see how simple and basic most moves are they wonder where the rest came from.

[SifuAbel]

1- Forms were created by theoretical non fighters based on how they thought fighting was supposed to happen.
2- To teach fighting based on the theoretical constructs of theoretical non-fighters.
3- They were never relevant.


This is funny propaganda.

I mean really, this flys in the face of need being the catalyst for invention.

Sorry dude, this kind of thinking is self serving masturbation.

To date, when I ask people to actually LIST what doesn't work, most people can't answer beyond moves like the tornado kick.(which works for me just fine) They can't actually pinpoint what "doesn't work". They just say "it". Or, doing horse stance drills or some other trivial misunderstood minutia. High round kicks were part of this list. Until, of course, they started showing up left and right. this to me is the hypocrisy of the game. "Round kicks didn't work ever never never ever before they were used in UFC108." OK........

What part of a form doesn't work, The blocks, the punches, the kicks, the underhooks, the knockdowns? What else is there?

[Knifefighter]

what about some of these CMA guys that have lived through war and have been employed by their and other governments? These guys that have fought and killed in actual real life situations.

People who fight during war time use weapons. Hired killers also use weapons.

LOL @ soldiers and contract killers running around killing people with their bare hands.



The reason being, when you attack someone, to recieve the maximum benefit of your attack your structure/form must be precise, otherwise you are not using what you have been taught. you will not recieve the maximum potential of your attack if your form is not correct. This is why we practice form..

LOL @ forms helping you to attack someone. The best way to attack someone is to surprise them.

[SifuAbel]

So by your logic its OK to be sloppy, lackadaisical, just walk in like you have melons for balls and hope that one of your strikes land?

[PangQuan]

People who fight during war time use weapons. Hired killers also use weapons.

LOL @ soldiers and contract killers running around killing people with their bare hands.




LOL @ forms helping you to attack someone. The best way to attack someone is to surprise them.

well then i guess you are calling the author of that books teacher a liar since it clearly states W.C. Chen saying he used Chin Na in real life during his work as an intelligence agent for the chinese and american government.....

ill believe the author transmitted what his teacher truthfully told him.

in addition you must not have understood what i was saying by the help of forms in an attack. this is excluding tactical advantage points of: suprise/position/etc.

also please point out where i state anyone was killed by forms? or did you make that up? are you believing the stuff you make up came from me? do you do this often? I used to make up lies as a child and believe them sometimes. not a good practice.

ever hear of subduing an assailant?

this is saying, when you punch something. anything, a bag, person, wall, car your wife, to do this with the utmost effeciency and structure your FORM must be correct.

I must not have been eloquent enough to get across what i was trying to say.

when you kick or punch the bag, if your form is really really bad, you can hurt yourself. a beginning student of any striking art learns this VERY quickly. you MUST have good form to deal out good power.

proper skeletal structure gives us the posture to be able to use all the muscles possible in any given movement. any movement, dance. running. fighting. skiing. golfing etc. any movment.

effeciency being the key, effeciency letting us issue as much power as our bodies can through proper allignment and muscular use.

This all can be trained through....guess what? FORM....where would a boxer be without propper form in his punches? deffinately not a world champ.

a boxer may not string together forms of his style in one long sequence, he singles them out. trains them seperately. CMA guys do this too. Hell i spent 3 hours yesterday on one technique out of one of my forms. thats all i did training yesterday.

[The Xia]

People who fight during war time use weapons. Hired killers also use weapons.

LOL @ soldiers and contract killers running around killing people with their bare hands.
It looks like you are back to the "People in the past only used weapons to fight" thing. I guess you haven't heard of Gong Sau or Lei Tai, not to mention all sorts of random brawls.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

well then i guess you are calling the author of that books teacher a liar since it clearly states W.C. Chen saying he used Chin Na in real life during his work as an intelligence agent for the chinese and american government.....

ill believe the author transmitted what his teacher truthfully told him.

Reply]
Do you have video on Youtube of him working for the government using Chin Na, as an intelligence agent against resisting grapplers in the cage? If no, Then his life is fake and useless.

[Pork Chop]

So by your logic its OK to be sloppy, lackadaisical, just walk in like you have melons for balls and hope that one of your strikes land?

Have you SEEN most MMA standup? :p

[PangQuan]

well then i guess you are calling the author of that books teacher a liar since it clearly states W.C. Chen saying he used Chin Na in real life during his work as an intelligence agent for the chinese and american government.....

ill believe the author transmitted what his teacher truthfully told him.

Reply]
Do you have video on Youtube of him working for the government using Chin Na, as an intelligence agent against resisting grapplers in the cage? If no, Then his life is fake and useless.

lmao!!!!!!

ps i edited that post a bit :P

[TenTigers]

ahhh, KF's jus pizzed cuz he never got over the time he backed down from GC.:p

[The Xia]

Have you SEEN most MMA standup? :p
You should know by now that when you go against a well-trained, resisting opponent in a realistic, full-contact format all effective striking resembles that of angry, drunken sailors. :rolleyes: :D

[Pork Chop]

You should know by now that when you go against a well-trained, resisting opponent in a realistic, full-contact format all effective striking resembles that of angry, drunken sailors. :rolleyes: :D

suuuure it does hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqryglW_MUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf1tYh2LIVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqkvl5YvH7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHCQpgvaB-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpUkneMSWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agi_ygP8mP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhMQ7QSCID8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cLpXx2suBQ

sorry, just an excuse to post more clips, couldn't resist. hehe

[SifuAbel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHCQpgvaB-s

great structure, great form, great kung fu.

[SevenStar]

I think it's funny that a BJJ exponent should be trying to tell predominantly stand up fighters how to train anyway.

a bjj guy who also competes in mma and stickfighting? Nah, what would he know.

Hell, I think it's hilarious and a CMQ / taizu guy who has never done bjj was trying to tell bjj guys what a bjj guy could or couldn't do and whether or not his actions were intentional...

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHCQpgvaB-s

great structure, great form, great kung fu.

LOL... notice how in 99% of the MT, boxing, wrestling, judo and Sambo clips out there they are either working against an opponent or hitting something.

Now, check out the CMA clips... notice how about 75% of them are forms done in the air.

[Knifefighter]

proper skeletal structure gives us the posture to be able to use all the muscles possible in any given movement. any movement, dance. running. fighting. skiing. golfing etc. any movment..

In fighting, this structure comes from working against either some kind of equipment or and opponent, not practicing in the air.

[TenTigers]

KF, what kind of stickfighting did you do?

[Knifefighter]

Dog Brothers.

[TenTigers]

didn't you learn the abcedarios, and two-man drills like dokum y punyo. Sure you learn them and then play hands on, but you needed the framework. This is how the system is handed down.

[Knifefighter]

didn't you learn the abcedarios, and two-man drills like dokum y punyo. Sure you learn them and then play hands on, but you needed the framework. This is how the system is handed down.

There's lots of good stuff in FMA. There's also lots of extraneouos B.S.

The good stuff is based exactly on the movements that happen during fighting. The B.S is based on the stuff that is "supposed" to happen, but doesn't resemble what really happens in full contact fighting.

The B.S. creeps in because so many people never fight full contact with sticks.

[Pork Chop]

just coz i'm feeling obnoxious today...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk5O5X7OKTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZzbzEDVC_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_IjWKiN8DM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6s27K0SMI (notice who's teaching & where)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGAVOWZXFMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRJeqLVyYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rNEx3yG4UE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdy58NKX5XQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzYadPDEZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbRykf-5Zo8 (beginning looks like bagua :p )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2S_RZoAI2I

[SifuAbel]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm looks like a lot of hitting to me. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

LOL... notice how in 99% of the MT, boxing, wrestling, judo and Sambo clips out there they are either working against an opponent or hitting something.

Now, check out the CMA clips... notice how about 75% of them are forms done in the air.

We all know that clips are the compendium of all human experience. :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

"compendium"
garsh, he uses his mouth better;n a two-dollar *****!:D

[PangQuan]

In fighting, this structure comes from working against either some kind of equipment or and opponent, not practicing in the air.

or both. ive begun to learn some I-chuan principles. You can add resistance to your own movements even if you have no actual physical resistance against you. its internal.

this comes back to being able to recreate muscular contraction of a specific action without actually doing the action.

like touching the stove. that explosion.

have you ever had children grab on to your leg? when you lift them up can you feel all of the muscle groups you are using? you see how your body has to move to be able to pick the kids up to take a step. recreate this without the children. with this method you can add internal resistance to your own movements.

we do this in chen taiji

my teacher can stand still and recreate muscular contraction of specific actions precicely while standing still. of course this type of kenesthetic preception and control takes a lot of time to master.

EDIT: so this does not get assumes, as im sure it would if i dont state otherwise. I am not saying internal resistance is all you need. you need to use partners and equipment as well. but when working form, as in taiji, you can add resistance yourself. with this method you can practice virtually anywhere.

one of my favorite pieces of equipment is a large cedar tree. you can see the hole have been creating in it over the past couple years.

[Knifefighter]

or both. ive begun to learn some I-chuan principles. You can add resistance to your own movements even if you have no actual physical resistance against you. its internal.

LOL @ internal resistance. Kind of like the old Charles Atlass dynamic tension program you could send away for that was in the back of the comic books when I was a kid.

That would be great if you were fighting yourself.

I'm amazed at the stuff people still fall for in this day and age.

[TenTigers]

Knifefighter, (sigh) you know so little..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l2ENGnluouc

[diego]

In my opinion, you get this problem when you teach forms without direct application training for each move in the form. My sifu loosely teaches the moves, then gives us corrections to improve each move. However, he mostly leaves the application to our immagination. I don't agree with this way of teaching. He says he doesn't want to limit us by showing us applications for each move. Phooey! If you show me at least one, then I can see the principle and meaning for the move in the form...I can then come up with more. If I can't picture an application for some move I think is meaningless in a form, you will find yourself in the bind you are now in with your students.

Just my two cents...;)

glad you brought this up, as it's something i've been pondering...they say moves have many applications...okay, but usually i'm not fighting many people!!!.:)

In the kajukenbo-Hop Gar style I study, every combo is direct application...every move in the forms, you see someone attacking you...that is kajukenbo not standard kung fu training...when the thai's fight an elbow high is hitting the temple, a kick low if straight is to the gut, etc.

The forms I learned are that good though:) I'm constantly finding differant ways to apply the moves, even though from day one I was taught to always visualize an attacker.

the training depends on how real your training is...many kenpo-kajukenbo forms are arm waving aerobics useless to a ufc fighter...but if a ufc fighter studied the basics of kajukenbo and then made his own style of kajukenbo-ufc like every master of that method is suppossed to do...than your visualization drills will be top notch because your training is...the problem is too much money on peoples minds and too much make beleive, and not enough sore joints...but then that wouldn't be NINJA :cool:

[WinterPalm]

I think it's funny that a BJJ exponent should be trying to tell predominantly stand up fighters how to train anyway.

Brilliant!

[rogue]

LOL... notice how in 99% of the MT, boxing, wrestling, judo and Sambo clips out there they are either working against an opponent or hitting something.

Now, check out the CMA clips... notice how about 75% of them are forms done in the air.

All striking techniques are done in the air except for the last little bit where it hits something. Would you want to tangle with this guy?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FJQRu8W-h00&mode=related&search=

[Knifefighter]

All striking techniques are done in the air except for the last little bit where it hits something. Would you want to tangle with this guy?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FJQRu8W-h00&mode=related&search=

LOL... not in a musical forms dance competition, that's for sure.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'd love to see KF in a musical dance forms competition. I'm thinking you're a Nazareth "Now you're messing with a son of a *****!" kind of guy.;)

[TenTigers]

Nazereth-the same band that did "Now youre messin with a son of a *****" also did "Love Hurts"?? I wouldn't have believed it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It was in the contract. For every ass-kickin' song you did, you had to have a power ballad. Them's the breaks of the biz, baby.

[rogue]

LOL... not in a musical forms dance competition, that's for sure.
Don't scoff at the power of a karate kata champ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QuIIXFm9vd4&mode=related&search=). He obviously has mastered advanced ki generation, secret techniques and fighting prowess through kata training alone. ;)

[cjurakpt]

All striking techniques are done in the air except for the last little bit where it hits something. Would you want to tangle with this guy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FJQRu8W-h00&mode=related&search=


Don't scoff at the power of a karate kata champ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QuIIXFm9vd4&mode=related&search=). He obviously has mastered advanced ki generation, secret techniques and fighting prowess through kata training alone. ;)

they both seem to be in a lot of pain...

[The Xia]

Don't scoff at the power of a karate kata champ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QuIIXFm9vd4&mode=related&search=). He obviously has mastered advanced ki generation, secret techniques and fighting prowess through kata training alone. ;)
What tournaments is he the champion of? :eek:

[Vash]

What tournaments is he the champion of? :eek:

Gymkata.

:cool:

[The Xia]

LOL @ internal resistance. Kind of like the old Charles Atlass dynamic tension program you could send away for that was in the back of the comic books when I was a kid.

That would be great if you were fighting yourself.

I'm amazed at the stuff people still fall for in this day and age.
What's wrong with dynamic tension?

[SevenStar]

there are several threads about DT in the training forum...

[Pork Chop]

there are several threads about DT in the training forum...

I read through the huge argument about isometric tension- how it's only good for about the flexing point and maybe 15 degrees variation.

In DT, you're flexing through a whole range of motion.
Done in combination with weights i could see this being a good thing.

Is there some viewpoint or evidence that I'm missing?

[Knifefighter]

I read through the huge argument about isometric tension- how it's only good for about the flexing point and maybe 15 degrees variation.

In DT, you're flexing through a whole range of motion.
Done in combination with weights i could see this being a good thing.

Is there some viewpoint or evidence that I'm missing?


Dynamic tension goes against just about all of the factors that have been shown to maximize strength and power.

Strength/power gains come from external resistance. Dynamic tension has no external resistance.

Speed plays a significant role in power development. Dynamic tension is done at slow rates of speed.

A big part of strength and power improvements come from relaxation/inhibition of the antogonistic muscle groups. Dynamic tension does not allow for relaxation/inhibition of antagonistic muscle groups.

Add weights and you have external resistance, but you are defeating the purpose by contracting the antagonistic muscle groups.

At least with isometric exercise, you generally have external resistance, which is the number one key to strength and power gains.

[Water Dragon]

Dynamic tension goes against just about all of the factors that have been shown to maximize strength and power.



http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459399

[Knifefighter]

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459399

You are mixing up isometric contractions with dynamic tension.

In dynamic tension there are two opposing muscle groups working against one another. There is no outside resistance.

With isometric contractions, there is outside resistance that cannot be overcome by the muscular contraction... hence isometric instead of concentric or eccentric.

Isometric work can be a valuable part of a strength training program. Dymamic tension is a waste of time.

[Pork Chop]

Gotcha.
See where you're coming from and believe you for the most part; but have had good results with dynamic tension/flexion in the past. so i'm reluctant to drop it altogether. though it's definitely not something to build a program around.