any ideas you'd like to share for fighting a TKD guy

[monkeyfoot]

So I got a challenge from some BB TKD guy who said he wanted to 'see kung fu work' blah blah and he reckons TKD is superior.

I train both QiXing and Wingchun so figured i'd try to give him a run for his money. From what I've seen TKD guys have a hella a sloppy guard and are only really effective from long range....so I figured move quick and fast to bridge the gap and get in close using some form of chain punch/fan chie motion then takedown/chin na. Maybe stick to the legs aswell so he cant use them.

I nailed one of his mates roundhouse a few days ago with a double forarm block/ double punch to the face/solar plex, so Im pretty confident here.

Anyways, I was just interested in how you would fight in terms of tactics and techniques, and anything else you think works.

craig

[TaichiMantis]

We face them in karate point sparring tourneys. They like to go for head shot kicks. It's easy to slip in and get a groin shot and/or catch/hook/redirect the leg and take their center. I've put a few on their butts that way. ;)

[Sifu Darkfist]

the style is a reactionary style with complex strikes derived out of response to your motion.
The way to defuse the tkd defense is to force it to face overwhelming strike numbers. Most combinations are between 1- 3 strikes however you are a 7 star player and should already be training 5.

if you are close that already takes his kicks away so no worries there. 7 star and wc are infighting systems. However most experts in these arts relent after a combination and this is a grave mistake. you need to attack with subsequent combinations until there is no longer a threat. Never underestimate Korean or Japanese hands. they are refined and strike well directly (that is if his TKD is the real deal).

I myself would consider his challenge a threat to my life and families welfare and probably stab him or something much more grotesque when he is close enough to feel my breath, however i am married with girls that need a father and 37 years old to boot.

Modern day challenges are illegal just remember this, the only confrontation that is legal are those engaged in to save your own well being.

I suggest you never accept, you only protect.

[Shaolinlueb]

tell them "you're grandmaster said you tuition check bounced" and when he turns to check, punch him in the head.

[yu shan]

LOL, that`s good Lueb! :D

[monkeyfoot]

Many thanks for the feedback,

I took your advice darkfist and have been running over various combination attacks and takedowns. Im gonna work in the ole 7* foot whereever I can to disrupt his balance and take away the use of his legs. Dont worry though, this is not a threat to my life and from what I know, we aren't going to try to kill each other....but thanks for the heads up anyhow :D

Yushan - re sweeping - yep it works a treat when they go for head shots. Well timed chest / front kicks have taken them down too.

I arranged to meet him this thursday. Fingers crossed all goes to plan. Ill report back and give the lowdown as and when.

craig

[mantis108]

I agreed with a lot of what is said.

I believe there are 2 types of TKD (WTF and ITF?). One is more "traditional" and the other is olympic oriented, which is the one almost entirely no hands at all plus they like high kicks to the head.

Now, I am not sure if you have agreed upon a format already. As long as "anything goes" goes you shouldn't have to worry about TKD if you don't stay in the long range. Their fancy kicks usually open them up for takedowns. Having said that, I am current working out with a person who's soon to acquire his olympic TKD coaching certificate. He also trained in Karate as well. So besides his beautiful kicks his takedowns are pretty good as well. The point is there is a difference between a olympic TKD purist and progressive TKD stylist.

Personally, I favor the "anything goes" (without dirty tactics of course) for this type of honorable duel (?) contest. I would rather not fuss about anything fancy and make a direct and forceful entry, take him down and finish off. IMHO, their kicks aren't as damaging as the Muay Thai kicks. As long as you don't flinch or lay back, be aggressive and take it like a man (sorry ladies). You don't have a problem once you are in close quarter unless he trains other stuff. To simply put it, take the fight away from him by forceful entry.

Well, good luck and may the best man wins.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

As long as "anything goes" goes you shouldn't have to worry about TKD if you don't stay in the long range.

Of course they are trying not to let you in either :)

Don't underestimate your opponent. If he's good, his kicks can be as fast as your hands. Keep your hands up and don't get popped in the head.

TKD has more plyometric training than most Mantis I've seen. They make a point to work their rapid fire explosive kick combinations.

Brendan Lai said that he thought Hee Il Cho's kicks were as fast as his own hands.

[Chop Socki]

I hate to generalize, since every student (and, to some extent, every instructor) will emphasize their strengths and train the most dilligently in whatevery aspect of their style appeals to them, but one factor that I've noticed in many TKD stylists that I've faced is what I consider to be a 'too relaxed' recovery of kicks. Yes, they throw them with great zeal... but then they just sort of 'fall back onto them', which differs from my own training that emphasizes recovering a strike as fast as it was thrown.

So... having said that, one thing you may find effective is the follow up of your opponent's kick with a leg hock delivered at ankle height. Don't think about a big 'lifting' hook or sweep with an accompanying hand technique - just establish the range after you block the kick and time it so that as he's putting his weight back on the kicking (front) foot, you hook it behind the ankle and pull it towards you.

I've been able to do that effectively enough - and often enough - that my opponent becomes hesitant to lift his front leg off the ground, and for a TKD fighter, that's pretty much the equivalent of surrender.

Good luck, keep it civil and try to learn from the experience.

- CS

ps: TKD does have hand techniques, they're just relatively simple. A straight punch is a very effective partner with a round kick.

[monkeyfoot]

Robert - thanks for the background info. Im not entirely sure what his TKD is geared towards, but by the look of his friends when I saw them spar, I would probably say olympic/competitive TKD

Rules so far are anything goes (bar dirty fighting of course), not sure whether its mitts or wraps, anything else im not fussed about. Mantis has enough techniques to adapt to whatever situation, and if I win with his rules....even better.

I did some background research (know your enemy kinda stuff :D) and some of his TKD brothers said he likes fast snappy kicks to the lower body followed with fast punches. Im guessing these would most probably be straights, so ill be working the Ou Lou Tsai, intercepts and invitation of the white apes followed by sweeps/takedowns. Will try a bit of leg hooking/sticking as mentioned above aswell.

Its funny you mention Muay Thai. I have a friend who cross trains Wingchun/muaythai and will be bringing him along for good measure. Be interesting to see how those two fair.

So, battleplan so far seems pretty tight. I am very grateful for the reassurence/advice from you guys.....hopefully it goes well and I change some minds.

[mantis108]

Hi Norman,

I hear you. :)

Hi Craig,

Sounds like you have done all your homework already. :D Please keep us inform about the matches including your Muay Thai friends. It would be interesting matches I am sure. BTW, are you going to film and post them on Youtube? Love to see you guys in action.

Warm regards

Robert

[SaintSage]

My primary training is in TKD. We are at about equal skill level, so it makes for great matches.

It's been said before, but get inside. At long range, the TKD guy will do his best to keep you there. Get inside and overwhelm him with hand techs. Follow him, keep it close. Fast hands coming in at different angles will confuse him, and he'll try to jump back with a roundhouse, stay close.

Be careful with leg sweeps. Watch his kicks first. If he's rooted and only delivers kicks he think will connect, a sweep may be risky. I've been hit in the leg with a sweep, but it didn't knock me off balance because I stayed rooted.

His roundhouse will be telegraphed by his hip. If you can move at an angle to avoid the kick his groin will be wide open. If you know any throws, use them while he retracts his kick, his balance will be awkward.

[wiz cool c]

If you're a mantis guy I would say keep catching his leg and throwing him. You guys have a lot of catching and grabbing and sweeps in your system right.

[monkeyfoot]

Morning people

Bit of a change in plan. We met up yesterday but my muay thai friends couldn't make it, so we decided postpone till mid next week.

I did have a light spar with one of the TKD guys just to make my hour long warm up worth it. It was an interesting experience having never sparred outside of the mantis/wingchun circle and was different to how I imagined. Somewhat aprehensive at first I stayed at a medium range and very nearly took a roundhouse headshot because of it. I literally got a double forarm block up just in time to prevent it connecting. I thought about what you guys said and stormed him with chain punches as he retreated a good 10-12 feet using a 'bar arm' type block to stop them connecting. From there it got pretty tight and eventually led to a little 7* trip which got his ass on the floor. I was pretty annoyed with myself as there were better ways in which I could have dealt with the bar arm that was blocking my chain punches.....but in the heat of the moment it doesn't always come to you.

Anyways I learn't from the mistakes of the first bout and in the second one stuck to his lead leg like a b!tch. He found it very difficult to retreat/make space to kick as I'd hook round his ankle with my lead leg. I chain punched him again to bridge the gap and he followed with a quick retreat/bararm as before. This time I knocked it up with my left and drilled into his side with a drilling fist / horse stance (which I was quite pleased with to be honest :D)

He also had some good stuff under his belt. He nearly had me again with the kicking feints. He went to throw a left roundhouse but didnt extend the leg, and insted carried on rotating and fired out a right side kick. I barely dodged the thing :D

Anyways. We shared some techs and demonstarted some katas/weapon forms to finish off. This pre-match definately put things in perspective for me. I underestimated TKD in some areas (hands etc) and I think this made me less successful than I could have been.

Ill see how I fair next week

Craig

ps: mantis108 - I did mention getting a video but one of them seemed hesitant. I will ask again on the day.

[racerX]

Watch for the lead leg that's how they set up alot of there combo's,dont' charge right in with hands, good way to get broken ribs, side step move in at a 45% unroot that way.

[-N-]

Somewhat aprehensive at first I stayed at a medium range and very nearly took a roundhouse headshot because of it. I literally got a double forarm block up just in time to prevent it connecting.

Yep, that's why I said keep your hands up. The good ones are very smooth and agile with feints and head shots. Their combos can be pretty fast, and they can run at you and kick combinations at the same time.

They tend to have a high center of gravity that's shifted towards the back. Check out the lead hip, often it's tilted up and back, and it takes only a relaxed twitch at the hip to shoot a kick at you.

It can be helpful to get under his kicks and lift up and forward with kwa rather than to do a double forearm smash. Kwa is handy against their axe kick. scoop from underneath and slam the kick down and behind you faster than he is kicking. That pulls their balance forward onto their lead leg and gives you their head for hook punch, clothesline, dun pak takedown and similar.

They are not used to grabbing and sweeps to inside of leg. They tend to bounce a lot and have good explosiveness in the calves. Don't waste time bouncing. Just slam some low kicks into his calf to make it hard for him to explode his kicks at you. Nail the upper thigh, both outer and inner.

Don't bother trying to grab any jabs, and don't waste time trying to grab his wrist. If he's wearing a uniform, the sleeve is way better for grabbing. Twist rather and pull on the sleeve and that will lock his wrist and elbow as you go for the head.

[Oso]

wow, tons of overanalyzation...sorry guys but I'm feeling picky. :p

hit him in the leg then hit him in the head.

repeat as necessary.

:D

[-N-]

Hehe... yah, what he said :)

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-tFPZeqBc

Low kick after combo to head like at 2:00

Kick his kicking leg like at 2:03

[monkeyfoot]

wow, tons of overanalyzation...sorry guys but I'm feeling picky.

I'd hate to have to quote Sun Tsu to you, so I wont, but he did have a point... :p

-N- Thanks again for the great input. I agree about the grabbing. He wasn't commiting enough with his punches for the ou lou tsai to work. Its a good technique, but i've always had mixed results with it. His stance was pretty solid too in that he didn't bounce as much as other TKD players. But yes, his COG was definately higher than mine so theres a lot of room for up-rooting him.

Ill keep it simple

craig

[Oso]

I'd hate to have to quote Sun Tsu to you, so I wont, but he did have a point... :p

didn't say he didn't and I wasn't referring to just -N-'s post. :)

Musashi say 'GO IN' :D


-N- Thanks again for the great input. I agree about the grabbing. He wasn't commiting enough with his punches for the ou lou tsai to work. Its a good technique, but i've always had mixed results with it. His stance was pretty solid too in that he didn't bounce as much as other TKD players. But yes, his COG was definately higher than mine so theres a lot of room for up-rooting him.

Ill keep it simple

craig

I agree, gou lou cai isn't best for a quick jab but if your sensitivity is good enough you can change before you commit to the pluck or after your grip slips and follow his retreating arm back for a nice 4-course meal delivered to his head: straight, elbow, wrap and then knee the crap out of him.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I find that most people who want to just kick quickly find themselves without a game plan when you plant your fist square on their nose. If you're recovering, and you're quick with a knee trap, just watch the leg with the least weight on it, and if you see the knee raise, push it back to the ground, and follow it with a hard straight. It has to be quick, though. Gets him to stumble, and generally drops his hands (natural reaction to find balance). Don't try and break the leg, push it back, like a push kick.

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW, you can have all the info at hand on how to defeat a TKD guy. But seriously, if you're more aggressive, don't drop your defenses, are in good shape, and are fast with your hands, you'll win. TKD matches (I've seen plenty), generally consist of lots of feinting and posturing, trying just to make contact somewhere. All you have to do is plant your fist on his nose or eye, and keep on making contact with his face, and it should change his tactics. But as all say, they can kick the hell out of you if you drop your guard.

[John Takeshi]

Like most Korean arts, their stances are not very strong in the spine. They're catered to giving structure to people with weak spines. If you have a strong spine, you'll win. Because I can guarantee that the TKD man won't.

[monkeyfoot]

hey people

sorry ive not updated - what can i say.... Rain, Rain, Rain

craig

[wiz cool c]

Like most Korean arts, their stances are not very strong in the spine. They're catered to giving structure to people with weak spines. If you have a strong spine, you'll win. Because I can guarantee that the TKD man won't.

this guy is such a D o r k

[Yao Sing]

Grab his Tae, hit him in the Kwan and kick his Do. Easy as that.

:p

[-N-]

I saw the 3 Stooges do that before! :)

[NJM]

Make sure to go into detail when you post the fight results.

My advice to you: Off-line, move in.

[-N-]

All you have to do is plant your fist on his nose or eye, and keep on making contact with his face, and it should change his tactics.
Easier said than done. Back when I was going to school at Cal, I sparred Berkeley's intercollegiate champion a few times. He was over 6' tall and about 215 lbs. I was 5'10" and about 160 back then. Wasn't easy trying to nail him.

There were a couple Korean brothers at the time. They got their black belts growing up in Korea. They were impressive bad @sses too.

N.

[-N-]

About 8 years ago, a black-belt TKD practitioner came to our Gwoon, and said that he wanted to fight. That is no problem, I said, but he must complete the lesson first.

Hey, somebody post the link to the Chan Pui story about the TKD guy that challenged him :)

I'm paraphrasing, but...

He told the guy, "Ok, but we have to fight outside. Follow me." Chan Pui jumped out of a 2nd story window and landed on his feet outside of the building. The guy declined to follow him :)

N.

[B.Tunks]

if a guy does tkd (insert- boxing, karate, wrestling, judo, jiujitsu, wing chun, any, or no art at all) trains hard (except in the case of 'no art at all') and is relatively tough he will kick your ass. especially if his opponent does tlq, doesn't train (or train incorrectly) and is soft.

it's more about the individual rather than the style in my experience.

[-N-]

Hehe... yah, what he said :)

[mantid1]

I heard another Chan Pui story where he answered a challenge by saying "Ok, I run seven mile and turn around...if you still there I fight you".

[monkeyfoot]

if a guy does tkd (insert- boxing, karate, wrestling, judo, jiujitsu, wing chun, any, or no art at all) trains hard (except in the case of 'no art at all') and is relatively tough he will kick your ass. especially if his opponent does tlq, doesn't train (or train incorrectly) and is soft.

it's more about the individual rather than the style in my experience.




Good points. ''especially if his opponent does tlq''. So do you think the tlq player has more of a disadvantage? Or was this just in regards to whether he trains properly or not?

sorry i didnt really get that line

craig

[mantis108]

Good points. ''especially if his opponent does tlq''. So do you think the tlq player has more of a disadvantage? Or was this just in regards to whether he trains properly or not?

sorry i didnt really get that line

craig

If I may...

Martial arts training of any kind isn't a guarantee. Rather it's an investment in an insurance policy of self preservation. Now of course, most people who are in Kung Fu aren't that interested in self preservation anyway. It's more of an art form for some of them and others look to escape the mundane life through kung Fu. That's fine, to each their own.

I have always said that you can't find anything in Kung Fu that is not found within you. For example, if you are not a fighter, you won't become a fighter even you train Kung Fu with proper standard, which btw is extremely important. Fighter thrives with struggles (ie injuries, defeats, failures, etc) not necessarily glory. There is honesty in a true figther's humility that is acquired through humiliation. If you look around in the Kung Fu community in general today, you don't find that honest humility much. You'd see parade, pageantry, drama and countless fantastical tales. That's the norm for Kung Fu to most people. Kung Fu has truly become what most people preach today - the art of fighting without the fighting. If your Kung Fu can't be used in NHB events, can't be used in Sanshou events, can't be used in Kickboxing event, can't be used in Grappling events, can't be used in point sparring events, etc, what good is this limited skill? How absurd it is to claim that your Kung Fu is versatile in the street when you never faced a resistive opponent? How absurd it is to claim that Kung Fu will only work against opponent of similar size and strength and almost exact skill? How dangerous it is to carry a weapon that you have not tested and expect it to perform under pressure?

Make no mistake, my friends, proper Kung Fu training includes resistive sparring sessions of some kind (fill in the format) as the basic training like every other martial sports not mere drills (although you could say that sparring is a type of drill). The basic training which is the most physical and the hardest is designed to bring out the fighter in you in the most efficient and effective manner. It is by no mean to mold you or shape you into something that you are not. Fighting is the alpha and omega of Kung Fu that let you examin who you really are not someone who you believed that you were. When you can keep that honest humility in you, you will begin to understand the true benefit and value of proper Kung Fu training.

Now, let's start running that 7 miles. ;):D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Good points. ''especially if his opponent does tlq''. So do you think the tlq player has more of a disadvantage? Or was this just in regards to whether he trains properly or not?

sorry i didnt really get that line

craig

especially if one thinks tanglang alone will get him over the line. and yes, a distinct disadvantage trying to fight with tlq unless training to fight with it (correctly). a very good way to get arse handed to oneself.

[monkeyfoot]

a very good way to get arse handed to oneself.

lol nicely worded :cool: .....I see your point though.

As has been said a thousand times before across this board, too many mantis groups focus on form/drills only. My group I train with are guilty of form collecting (and the lack of principles show quite clearly because of it). So is 'correct training' having regular practice against a resisting opponent?
I noticed that theres a lot of emphasis (yourself and mike martello to name only a few) on the Jiben Gong or the Kung fu Basics. I read somewhere you reworked the basics for like 4 years. Would this be a key element to work on so that 'my arse doesnt get handed to me' in a fight.

I've seriously been contemplating freezing my 'progression through the forms' so-to-speak and to spend like 2-3 years just reworking the basics....what d'you think?

[B.Tunks]

lol nicely worded :cool: .....I see your point though.

As has been said a thousand times before across this board, too many mantis groups focus on form/drills only. My group I train with are guilty of form collecting (and the lack of principles show quite clearly because of it). So is 'correct training' having regular practice against a resisting opponent?
I noticed that theres a lot of emphasis (yourself and mike martello to name only a few) on the Jiben Gong or the Kung fu Basics. I read somewhere you reworked the basics for like 4 years. Would this be a key element to work on so that 'my arse doesnt get handed to me' in a fight.

I've seriously been contemplating freezing my 'progression through the forms' so-to-speak and to spend like 2-3 years just reworking the basics....what d'you think?

MF

far be it from me to be telling anyone what they should do to progress (as I have a long way to go myself), but sounds like good thinking- both on the resisting opponent approach and the focus on basics. i could do with more of this kind of training myself.

bt

[monkeyfoot]

mantis108 - Another excellent post that you have graced us with :)


How absurd it is to claim that Kung Fu will only work against opponent of similar size and strength and almost exact skill? How dangerous it is to carry a weapon that you have not tested and expect it to perform under pressure?

From what I have read/experienced this seems to be a crucial factor in developing this humility you talk about. Its not hard to build an ego, especially when you train in something that ultimately builds confidence (and sometimes a false confidence). Its easy to fall into the trap of thinking that your kung fu can hold its own when you've only trained in controlled situations with partners who comply. If this mindset continues a person can become totally disheartened when the reality hits them and they realise their kung fu didnt work as they thought. This becomes the turning point whereby you either give up or soulsearch and find this new sense of humility. As you said, humility follows humiliation.

But, introduce core basics and resistive sparring at an early period and its likely that the player will never face this 'awakening' (for lack of a better word) and through blood and sweat the whole ego thing should also dissapear.

craig

[mantis108]

mantis108 - Another excellent post that you have graced us with :)

From what I have read/experienced this seems to be a crucial factor in developing this humility you talk about. Its not hard to build an ego, especially when you train in something that ultimately builds confidence (and sometimes a false confidence). Its easy to fall into the trap of thinking that your kung fu can hold its own when you've only trained in controlled situations with partners who comply. If this mindset continues a person can become totally disheartened when the reality hits them and they realise their kung fu didnt work as they thought. This becomes the turning point whereby you either give up or soulsearch and find this new sense of humility. As you said, humility follows humiliation.

But, introduce core basics and resistive sparring at an early period and its likely that the player will never face this 'awakening' (for lack of a better word) and through blood and sweat the whole ego thing should also dissapear.

craig

Hi Craig,

Thank you for the compliments.

Too often these days, we hear TCMA people, some of them with years of experiences behind them, suddenly "awakening" by BJJ, MMA, NHB, etc. and they turn their back on all things TCMA. That need not be the case if we stay vigilant on making sure that fighting is an integral part of Kung Fu IMHO. It is a case of we offering them a chance to see there are the holes in their game and here's how and why we should fix it this way rather then do as I told you and good luck when you need it.

Warm regards

Robert