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S.Teebas
05-21-2001, 07:03 PM
What do you guys think of wing chun?? do you think that you might have an edge against your fellow JKD'ers if you knew a little wing chun...or is it too different to what JKD really is all about?...if so how?

Sean Madigan
05-21-2001, 07:55 PM
Hi,

My opinion may be different from most JKDers, I really don't know.

I feel that Wing Chun should be a HUGE part of any fighers understanding of combat. Oh, and I am not talking about "trapping"...instead I am talking about the real lessons of WC/VT/WT such as angles and strategy.

Is WC/VT/WT the "end all" for all martial arts...No, but what art is? I really feel that if you trained the lessons of Wing Chun in a very alive manner, you would become a very good fighter.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

Daedalus
05-21-2001, 11:11 PM
Depending on which perspective you take with regards to JKD, whether you follow the Jun Fan/JKD (Original JKD) crowd or whether you are more of a concepts person, wing chun may not be needed.

If you hold more with the teachings of Jun Fan JKD, it would be hard to separate out the wing chun, seeing as how that was a large part of what Bruce studied.

However, if you train JKD concepts, wing chun need not be a part of your training unless you want it. Many other styles train the same material (trapping, angles, strategy), and in some cases teach it more thoroughly than WC.

Kempo, for example. It is purely my opinion, but I feel that kempo striking techniques are every bit as effective as wing chun striking. Although my wing chun training is limited, I didn't see anything unique about it that would necesitate my adding it to my JKD matrix over kempo.

[This message was edited by Daedalus on 05-22-01 at 02:16 PM.]

rogue
05-22-2001, 01:49 AM
how do you go about adding something from a martial art to JKD? Do you study that art until you achieve a certain rank or mastery, or just pick a technique out and work with it until it works?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

remo
05-22-2001, 07:06 AM
S.Teebas,

Considering how important wing chun was in the beginning of JKD, I think one should at least have an understanding of the basic principles of wing chun, and observe a wing chun boxer in action if possible.

rogue,

Combining martial arts is a delicate task that requires one to fully understand your own body mechanics. I have found certain approaches work hand in glove and others don’t match and lead to problems if forced together. An example of techniques that work well are, wing chun and chin-na throws; some that don’t would be, western boxing and TKD kicks.
I don’t think you need to be a “master” of a style to recognize whether you can use it or not so long as you know what and who you are.

imho. :cool:

"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'

4 Ranges
05-22-2001, 03:40 PM
Wing chun is a great style, regardless of whether you are a JKDer or not. It will most certainly help any martial artist, as it is a no nonsense style. I agree with BIG Sean that, if it is trained in a live manner, and don't adhere to techniques/principles that don't work for you, it's a great system.

rogue:

I don't like the phrase "adding" a style. That's not what it's about, man. Most styles specialize in just one range (TKD for kicking, wing chun for trapping, bjj for ground, etc.). But a fight is a multi-ranged, multi-dimensional affair. It always mutates from one range to another, from one opponent to multiple opponents.

JKDers don't add styles; we train ranges. So if we're training savate, it's not because we want to be savateurs: we're familiarizing ourselves with kicking range. If we train wing chun, it's not because we want to become sifus in the art: we're training in trapping range. So when you see JKD fighters training in silat, wing chun, savate, bjj, etc., they're not ADDING styles, they're FAMILIARIZING themselves with RANGES.

So, one could ask: what if I train TKD, wing chun, tai chi, wu shu, and sambo? is that JKD?

Well, if you have familiarized yourself with all 4 ranges (having the knowledge), making it all flow into an efficient sequence (applying the knowledge), and THEN being able to fight in a realistic situation with your sequence...one could say that you have acquired your "own" JKD. And that's really what it's all about. Whether other people say it's JKD or not is irrelevant. Like the man said: "JKD is whatever works."

PEACE

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of bloo

Daedalus
05-22-2001, 06:04 PM
Jkd is not about collecting bits and pieces of other arts. It is about skill developement. If the certain skill that the JKD practicioner wishes to learn is similar to a skill or technique in wing chun or silat, then so be it. Learn the useful skill (truth) and forget the style(carrier of truth).

No style owns or has a monopoly on any technique anyway. There is no such thing as a karate punch or a wing chun trap. Movement is movement and movement is universal. Movements may be similar to the way that they are performed in a certain style, but the style is unimportant(by JKD standards anyway). The skill and useful utilization of that skill is what matters.

rogue
05-23-2001, 12:32 AM
4Ranges, I know you didn't mean any offense but your quote, "Most styles specialize in just one range (TKD for kicking, wing chun for trapping, bjj for ground, etc.)." is what ****es people off about JKD students. It really makes you seem ignorant about other martial arts.

As far as, "But a fight is a multi-ranged, multi-dimensional affair. It always mutates from one range to another, from one opponent to multiple opponents."

Fights aren't always multi-ranged, most that I've seen started in one range (in close) and stayed or finished there. Most fights are so quick the idea of ranges is a waste of time.

Daedalus, the question I have is exactly how do you learn the skill? Do you actually go to a full fledged school of that style or do you depend upon
someone who has second or third hand knowlage of the technique?

remo, TKD and boxing actually work well together, ever hear of kickboxing? :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-23-01 at 03:38 PM.]

DragonzRage
05-23-2001, 03:35 AM
Well, i won't comment on whether or not it will greatly help your competence as a fighter. I do not feel that I have enough knowledge in wing chun and its techniques to render that judgment. But if you start learning the Jun Fan system coming from a wing chun background, it will definitely give you the edge in understanding the trapping, chi sao, wooden dummy and sensitivity aspects of Jun Fan. It will definitely provide you a better technical foundation than most people who begin Jun Fan with no prior experience or knowledge in wing chun. IMO wing chun also has some great strategic fighting concepts that could definitely help you on the theoretical level (that is, if you are good at translating theory into functional application) but I really wouldn't be able to tell you whether or not wing chun is as functional on the physical/technical level as it is on the theoretical level.

"Courage is the resistance of fear, the mastery of fear...not the absence of fear."

4 Ranges
05-23-2001, 05:56 PM
how does the quote "most styles specialize in just one range" make me seem ignorant? Are you telling me that most styles are multi-ranged? Is Karate multi-ranged? Is Thai boxing? Is Kickboxing? Boxing? Wrestling? Tiger Claw? Dragon fist? xing yi? ba gua? goju? I know of a HANDFUL of styles that cover all ranges: none of these styles do, and these styles are pretty representative of what's out there. Makes YOU seem ignorant, doesn't it?

As for realistic fighting, I'm not talking about your typical school-yard exchange, or 2 guys arguing in a parking lot situation. THOSE fights end in 2 seconds, in just one range. I'll give you that.

But the REAL fights don't end with just one shove, one blow, at one range, in one second. An intruder that is intent on hurting you or your loved ones will not just leave after 2 seconds worth of fighting. Cops trying to apprehend a criminal on PCP will not be able to restrain him in just one range. The assaults that occured at NYC during the Puerto Rican Day parade wasn't just between 2 guys. You're living in a dreamworld if you think real fights start and finish in just one range.

And I don't count fights at parking lots and bars as real fights. I leave those to the drunks and the parking attendants.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

Daedalus
05-23-2001, 05:57 PM
If I have access to a school that teaches an art that contains a specific skill that I wish to learn, I will try and make arrangments with the instructor to attend classes (temporarily of course)until I learn what I need. Unfortunately, most instructors do not want to allow this.
In some cases I will ask about private instruction, but usually when the instructor finds out that I'm not interested in learning the style, that all I want is guidance regarding a few skills, they decline.

In those cases I refer to videos, books, and seminars. I also have several friends who train in other styles that I train with occasionally.

If I come across a skill that I wish to learn that I don't have access to in anyother way, I will mimic the skill or technique to the best of my ability until I become proficient at it.

With an understanding of movement and physics, no technique is truly a mystery.

rogue
05-23-2001, 10:21 PM
Daedalus,

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

remo
05-23-2001, 10:44 PM
Daedalus,

From my observations, I would agree with you. Very few martial arts instructors are willing to provide crosstraining for the more eclectic. A lot of that comes from the “my style is best” syndrome. Like minded people will seek each other out, I would suggest for those interested in the JKD approach to keep looking and put out feelers for others interested in the same thing.

Rogue,

Thanks for pointing out my rather cryptic reply, and I appreciate your sense of humor. ;)

For others, to be clearer on my reply, traditional TKD kicks (not the olympic stuff) are properly launched from a wider rooted fighting stance, punches in boxing are usually thrown from an upright mobile light stance, attempting to combine the two gives us, in most cases, the comical result we see in ‘kickboxing’. (Only to be out done by tae bo) :rolleyes:

rogue
05-23-2001, 11:14 PM
Whoops fat fingers today!

Remo, during sparring even TKD people tighten up their stances for kicking. Now there are some that do take on the side horse but not much can be done with them anyway.

Daedalus, thanks for answering the question I asked. Do you get any people who are experts in others styles who join your school adding to the mix?

4Ranges, most of the styles you listed are not restricted to one "range". You may not like how they handle a range but it's there. For example, from what I could tell Royce Gracie handled striking range extremly well by moving in for a takedown.

As far as "real" fights, every one of my instructors has been either a SEAL, "Green Beret", bodyguard or bouncer. All have used their arts, Jujitsu, karate, kickboxing and TKD, in the real world, in real fights by your criteria. I have been in 5 fairly serious fights against single and multiple assailants and 2 fights against knives, 2 robberies, one of which was 4 on 2 the other 1 on 1. While I may not be an expert on street fighting, I have had them and held my own using such faulty and incomplete arts as Japanese Jujitsu, Karate and Muay Thai.

How about you?

Also I think I said, it makes you sound ignorant, as in the dictionary definition "Unaware or uninformed", I didn't say you were stupid.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Daedalus
05-24-2001, 07:19 PM
Yes,..occassionally someone who is a high ranking instructor (I don't know if I'd call most of them experts?)will come to my school to train. Mostly guys from traditional karate schools.

Let me clarify something here,..I do not train children, I work exclusively with adults. Many of the people who I train with have come to me after training in another style (mostly traditional karate, TKD, and judo); and at some point became disillusioned with their respective styles.

Recently though, there have been some jujitsu guys coming to classes. They grapple really well, but lack stand up experience. In cases like this, the relationship is not a teacher/student relationship, but more of a co-operation. I teach them about what I do (Kempo), and they teach me some of what they do. It usually works out to be a beneficial arrangement for both parties.

Back to your question though, in some cases the visiting "experts" just want an exchange if info. Other times they just want somewhere to work out. Either way is fine with me, so long as they are respectful and courteous. But while they are at my school, I am constanly watching them to see if anything they do will be of value to me. :)

[This message was edited by Daedalus on 05-25-01 at 10:34 AM.]

4 Ranges
05-24-2001, 07:39 PM
rogue:

I've had my share of scraps, sure. None of them ended in 2 seconds in one range, though.

I'm willing to bet yours didn't either.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

rogue
05-24-2001, 09:42 PM
You'd bet wrong.

The altercations were always under 30 seconds(the 4 on 2 I'd guess was about 30 secs), and the rest were probably under 10-15 seconds from the first physical move to the last. And most were all fought close in. Only one that I know of was against someone with a martial arts background and that one I'm betting was way under 10 seconds and in one range.

I've seen fights, barroom brawls really, go through what you'd call ranges. But they were between untrained chumps who likly couldn't finish a fight if their lives depended on it.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour