Useless Techniques

[TenTigers]

I would like to hear ferom the forum, which techniques do yuo feel were placed in your forms that you believe are useless, whether they are strictly for show, or outdated.
Please be very specific, rather than simply making blanket statements such as "high kicks" or "Forms." I would be curious one-that just how long a list we get, and two-whether people can find a legitimate reason for such moves.

[Knifefighter]

Non-spinning backfists.
The backhanded forearm to the throat seen in almost all chi sao demonstrations.
Cross stepping.
Stylized wrist movements.
Trapping.

[mantis7]

(Sorry for simple terminology. I forgot the chinese names for the techniques a long time ago)

Trapping= Mantis catches Cicada

twin dragon in search of pearls = ala three stooges two finger poke in the eyes

twisting stance with left hooking hand and right rising elbow break.

ummm parry hand with fist strike to the ribs while in cat stance

lead rising hand block with rear punch.

Cross hand trapping or most trapping to being with.

Theoretical Chin na: The over the shoulder elbow break


just fyi, I am of the current opinion that most material from any given form do not work. The concepts of a given system coupled witht the basics work alot better than so called advance material.

If you were to boil any kung fu system down you would have all the basic kicks, punches, elbows, knees, throws, and working locks. All the "next level" stuff could be tossed out the window. No more silly Dim mak, Theoretical Chin na, overly complex throws that would never work ect ect.

[Ben Gash]

non-spinning backfists: Backfist covers a multitude of sins, some more effective than others. I'm really not a fan of those short pat-hit backfist you see in Wing Chun etc, but the hanging fist and whipping fist seen in southern longarm styles are very powerful shots.
Interestingly I was watching one of Mark Hatmakers DVDs the other day and it would appear that the backfist was a part of a pre-Queensbury boxer's arsenal, known as guillotines or hinged shots.
The thing with backfists is they require setup, and are often a shot of opportunity. Even the short backfist has a place in that if that's where your hands end up and that's your striking option then you've got to take it, and hope that it'll create an openning for something stronger.
The problem I think is that because the short backfist is quick, easily controllable for sparring and looks good in Chi Sau, it gets overused and taught inappropriately.
Cross stepping: again this week I was watching an Erik Paulson DVD where he uses cross stepping in his guard passes. Misteaching of stancework is a real problem in the Kung Fu community. Cross steps are not about movement, they're about kicking and leg trapping, and for this they're pretty effective.
Trapping works, it's just it should look more like clinching and pummelling (in fact it should look EXACTLY like clinching and pummelling), not a stylised flurry of hands.
Pointless wrist flourishes are indeed a bad habit.

[SAAMAG]

Most of gung fu is outdated.

The movements one uses should be consistent with the perils of the day; I agree that most of the above is in fact quite useless, all except the trapping that is--for the same reasons that have already been stated.

It shouldn't look like patty-cake or slappy hands, it should look like a strong immobilization followed by a pummelling. Just like ground and pound--except standing.

Here's another thought that came to my mind from this thread:

What about the ideal that what is useful to some is useless to others, and vice versa? Remember that every person is different and the individual is always more important than the style/techniques chosen.

What works for you may not work for someone else...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have not found anything useless in my style yet.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What about the ideal that what is useful to some is useless to others, and vice versa? Remember that every person is different and the individual is always more important than the style/techniques chosen.

Reply]
I think this is a good point. Most styles of today are built on the experiences of many generations, each adding thier favorite tactics. Because of this, I'd say MOST of a given style is not going to fit you. Once you master the basics, it's a smorgas board that you pick and choose what seems to fit you.

It won't all fit you, because the style was not built by one person with all the answers. It is a collection of stuff that worked for many people. Even the creators would not agree about the contents of the art if they could be brought back today for discussion.

[WinterPalm]

What about the ideal that what is useful to some is useless to others, and vice versa? Remember that every person is different and the individual is always more important than the style/techniques chosen.

What works for you may not work for someone else...

This is exactly it! Most people in the traditional styles have a system that encompasses many techniques...only some of which you will be good at and even less you will be great at. But if I only teach what I like, you'll never figure out what you life and how to use those things.
There are some techniques I have never been good at, despite trying a lot in sparring, yet some training partners utilize them from the get-go.

[mantis7]

What about the ideal that what is useful to some is useless to others, and vice versa? Remember that every person is different and the individual is always more important than the style/techniques chosen.

What works for you may not work for someone else...

Ok my background is both in TCMA and Muay Thai, Grappling just as a point of reference for my comments.

There will always be those few indivduals who can make techniques that seem tottally impossible a reality. These indivdual are those gifted few who can pull them off and even then it is complete situational.


I think this is a good point. Most styles of today are built on the experiences of many generations, each adding thier favorite tactics. Because of this, I'd say MOST of a given style is not going to fit you.

The above is only true if the totality of the system was proven completely viable and applicable. If a technique was truly useful all those years ago it should be useful now by all assumptions. We have to test our material in order to determine if it has been corrupted over time, not properly tested, or no longer viable due to change in combat methodology. Honestly, there is only so many ways we can strike, throw or choke a person and once they portrayed anything else is just fluff.


Once you master the basics, it's a smorgas board that you pick and choose what seems to fit you. It won't all fit you, because the style was not built by one person with all the answers. It is a collection of stuff that worked for many people. Even the creators would not agree about the contents of the art if they could be brought back today for discussion.

RDS, I am not trying to be mean or a jerk but this kind of thinking allows Martial BS to exsist. There are things that would never work in alot of TCMA and labeling them as things that you could not accomplish but maybe someone else can is just harmful. For example, multi-tiered hand trapping into fancy chin na locks are often seen in many martial arts demos and a lot of people believe they actually work.
Don't you think keeping stuff like that around is doing a disservice to your students?

Hell, I learned pressure points to some extent and yeah I thought they worked because they hurt like hell when I was a complaint uke. When I tried to apply them in real fight they were easily dealt with by my opponent. There is a wide gap between applicable in a pressure situation and a static in kwoon scenario.


Even the creators would not agree about the contents of the art if they could be brought back today for discussion.

It is true most masters would not agree with what works and what doesn't but reguardless if they discussed this or not the final test would be in combat. All the talking would go away and the truth would be in the application. If master A says "Your elbow strikes are nonsense" all master B has to do was defeat Master A with his elbows and that is the proof. No talking is neccesary.


I have not found anything useless in my style yet

Keep looking, there is no TCMA that is exempted from possessing BS stuff. TCMAs were developed to defend against similar attacking methods and they evolved with the times. But since the advent of the firearm, hand to hand skill has become secondary and the need to develop it not as important. This factor alone has allowed martial arts to become a sport as well as an art form. The art form side has allowed more intricate maneuvers to be developed that may or may not be applicable in a modern situation.



There are some techniques I have never been good at, despite trying a lot in sparring, yet some training partners utilize them from the get-go.

Let say something about sparring, which I am sure you already take into account, when you hit someone for real the opportunity to apply a technique increase or decreases with the reaction of your opponent. The level of sparring will allow you to pull of the more "gray area" techniques. Your opponent is not going to try and take your head off when you are attempting to apply it. For example, when some tries to grab and pull you during a friendly sparring session you are less likely to full ressit and pull your arm back because you are not in imminent danger or threat. In a full contact situation you will react diffrently. As I am sure you undestand this I suggest you try taking techniques from the lad of light,middle contact "friendly" sparring to the next level to really test what you think is applicable.

Final thought if a technique works you will be able to pull it off no matter the level of intensity of your training. If it does not fight this rule of thumb, imo, throw it out.:eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Keep looking, there is no TCMA that is exempted from possessing BS stuff. TCMAs were developed to defend against similar attacking methods and they evolved with the times. But since the advent of the firearm, hand to hand skill has become secondary and the need to develop it not as important. This factor alone has allowed martial arts to become a sport as well as an art form. The art form side has allowed more intricate maneuvers to be developed that may or may not be applicable in a modern situation.

Reply]
I think a lot of that is because the actual context of the usage has been lost, and people are trying to reverse engineer the techniques into situations they don't belong in the first place. If they knew HOW the techniques was supposed to be used, then it would work.

For example, the butterfly kick is not really a kick, but more of a sizzor leg take down. In the form it is just represented so you can land on your feet and continue with the form, but in use you follow through to it's logical conclusion as a take down.

I think in many of the newer styles you may be right, and there are techniques that crept in to them from non fighters who put theoretical moves in, that don't work, but in a really old military based style like mine, you really don't see that. Especially since it was preserved due to it being considered culturally sacred due to it having come from the Imperial court. Other styles were probably not as perfectly preserved because they were not considered sacred treasures and thus the practitioners felt free to modify as they desired.

[mantis7]

I think a lot of that is because the actual context of the usage has been lost, and people are trying to reverse engineer the techniques into situations they don't belong in the first place.

Reguardless if it was loss it can be reversed engineered. If they are not viable because the scenario they are ment to work in is no longer exsistent then it should not be preserved.


For example, the butterfly kick is not really a kick, but more of a sizzor leg take down. In the form it is just represented so you can land on your feet and continue with the form, but in use you follow through to it's logical conclusion as a take down.

I suggest that you speak with whom ever told you that a butterfly kick could lead to a take down and have them show you. I really don't know where to begin with that statement. I can only say what you have already stated "people are trying to reverse engineer the techniques into situations they don't belong in the first place"

The butterfly kick is not a take down no matter how you apply it. The mechanics for a scissor leg take down is not comparable to a butterfly kick. Doing a scissor leg take down in a form leads to Dit tang. This would normally get represented by someone being on the ground doing a scissor leg motion representing the take down.


I think in many of the newer styles you may be right, and there are techniques that crept in to them from non fighters who put theoretical moves in, that don't work, but in a really old military based style like mine, you really don't see that.

Sigh, I come from Seven Star Praying Mantis....its pretty old and is known for fighting. It has some BS stuff in it just like any other system. All moves are theoretical and are designed to counter or attack in a manner to increase the outcome of success versus an exsisting system. When the mode of combat changes so must the techniques being used.

If you are not used to defending against jabs, crosses, or throws, then the material your using has to be updated. If you wish to perserve it then say so, but do not fool people into think it will deal with all encounters especially the attacks your system was not designed to defend against.


Especially since it was preserved due to it being considered culturally sacred due to it having come from the Imperial court. Other styles were probably not as perfectly preserved because they were not considered sacred treasures and thus the practitioners felt free to modify as they desired.

Do you honestly think that the practioners of your art did not add their own flavor
or techniques to the art to gain favor of the courts or to show their expertise? Nothing exsist in a bubble no matter how well perserved it was. The transmission from your teacher to you is enough to effect a change.




By the way what system do you study? ( I pray you do not say long fist )

I just looked up your other name Royal Dragon and you have listed North & South Long Fist - Shaolin - Tai Chi....

Long fist has tons of stuff in there that is either, no longer applicable, flowery, BS to begin with along with the stuff that works.

Shaolin... what does that consist of?

Tai Chi- Yeah, there is alot of stuff as well in Tai Chi that has been corrupted or never was truly useful in combat.

[Mr Punch]

I have not found anything useless in my style yet.Isn't that because you only practice forms?! :p :D


I find all of the finger jabs in wing chun to be bollocks.

The 'backhand' in wing chun is way over-emphasised and overused, but I think it has its uses.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Do you honestly think that the practioners of your art did not add their own flavor
or techniques to the art to gain favor of the courts or to show their expertise? Nothing exsist in a bubble no matter how well perserved it was. The transmission from your teacher to you is enough to effect a change.

Reply]
Maybe, but over all the techniques are still the same.

I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It is the art of Sung Tai Tzu, and there are forms supposedly form his Imperial guard in there as well. Although, the forms are newer. originally the style was just a collection of loose techniques used by Sung Tai Tzu, and his troops.

[EarthDragon]

LMAO!!!!!!!! OK who are the the guys who said trapping is useless ??? Please raise your hands for the rest of the class to see who you are..................LOL why didnt you add punching and kicking to your lists...

this board gets smarter and smarter every **** day

[Black Jack II]

OK who are the the guys who said trapping is useless

Depends on what you mean by trapping, you talking about just grabbing, holding and hitting the guy than that fits into functional trapping but if your talking about a series of rapid traps to establish a bridge then yeah its pretty low percentage.

[John Takeshi]

I find all of the finger jabs in wing chun to be bollocks.

Who are you learning your Wing Chun from? Your finger jabs are supposed to aim at the eyes, not the bollocks.

[EarthDragon]

hang on it was mantis7 and knifefighter... knifefighter?? well we all know thats with a grain of salt however I am curious about this comment.. from mantis7

just fyi, I am of the current opinion that most material from any given form do not work. The concepts of a given system coupled witht the basics work alot better than so called advance material.

mantis brother.......the forms ARE the system and when you spent enough time practicing you would eventually see this. every fighting application in our particular system is in the form. If you belong to a school that capitalizes on form collecting that i totally agree ......quit and find another school, however ar'nt you in chi xing chuan?

[mantis7]

mantis brother.......the forms ARE the system and when you spent enough time practicing you would eventually see this. every fighting application in our particular system is in the form. If you belong to a school that capitalizes on form collecting that i totally agree ......quit and find another school, however ar'nt you in chi xing chuan?


Trapping and multi tier trapping technique is complete rubish. I came from Raul Ortiz camp, spent a short time amoung the Chuen Luen camp as well.


the forms ARE the system and when you spent enough time practicing you would eventually see this.

This is just bull and is the kind of comment that allows bs to take root in TCMA, take apart bung bo or chaap choi and see how much stuff is applicable and what is no longer viable. Sifu Raul was and is not a form collector, we spent most of our time drilling and using the techniques in a fight orientated format but even then some of the material is just not applicable. What can be applied at light and medium contact does not denote effectiveness at full out contact.

Basuically, It is not the teachers fault nor the systems fault but time passes and things become antiquated. A system, like any body of knoweledge, has to be adapt or become useless. Why do you think so many kung fu systems developed and so many were lost over time. When the need to do h2h became less than important, the systems did no longer needed to prove themselves as much and those that should have died out, techniques I mean, were not filterd

If you are so adamant about "Mantis" trapping being succeful as taught please give us an example. But please notice I said Multi-tier trapping and bridging. I am not speaking about pressing and lifting or grabbing and plucking. I am talking about double pressing,cross hand trapping thinking you can actually trap a jab cross combo nonsese.

Now trapping, pressing, lifiting ect is viable in a clinch but that double hand bull**** is not.

Example of nonsese in the Mantis system ( read what I posted) or review any mantis form. The priciples and concepts are sound but the techniques... well you know how I feel.

Sigh and you are from an 8 step schools as well? You guys are in the same position as any other Mantis or TCMA style. It wasn't to long ago witht he advent of Bjj that you guys all of a sudden had the great anti-grapple and super secret Dit tang ground fighting.

[David Jamieson]

making a clinch and entering into attack is trapping and bridging.

patting/slapping entering and locking is bridging and trapping.

I think one of the biggest problems with those non-proponents of tcma is taht they don't get the lingo and despite that the regimens have been around a long time, it is this little hurdle that causes the biggest misunderstandings.

I mean, look at all the bull**** technical papers on modern training with all the slick linguistics and such. They do tend to simply reiterate the same stuff that's been around for pretty much all time.

so trapping is simply grabbing and holding to set up whatever comes next.

when you have something, you don't let go unless you want to move to a finish or there is a threat presented that merits leaving.

man...

[mantis7]

just to punctuate my point I went to your website and this is what I found

http://www.8stepusa.com/photokf_a.php

I'll let your photos speak for themselves

[SifuAbel]

Who.................


In the blue hell....................


are you (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/0/02/You_need_a_girl.jpg)??..............

[mantis7]

Are you refering to me?

Ok here is my pedigree.

Black sash (asst instructor) Seven star praying mantis under Sifu Ortiz
Asst instructor Kidlat Escrima, cadena de mana, Kuntao Silat under Billy Bryant
Studied Inasantos method Escrima, Muay thai- under Sifu Ortiz and Kevin Seaman (a couple of seminars)
Studied some fast wrestling with Dennis Mui
I still keep up with my Muay thai training and currently doing some boxing.

Does this some how add or detract from anything I have said?

[SifuAbel]

Great, call me when you grow up. Its called brown belt mentality. Get over it.

[fopah]

http://www.8stepusa.com/photoqg.php

[SifuAbel]

Long fist has tons of stuff in there that is either, no longer applicable, flowery, BS to begin with along with the stuff that works.

Shaolin... what does that consist of?

Tai Chi- Yeah, there is alot of stuff as well in Tai Chi that has been corrupted or never was truly useful in combat.
I think you should keep your comments to what you ACTUALLY know.

[mantis7]

Great, call me when you grow up. Its called brown belt mentality. Get over it.

Ok, questioning technique, understanding mechanics, testing what works and doesn't works is a brown belts mentality... then I'll gladly be a brown belt.

as far as growing up, I'm 32 and onld enough as it is...I suggest you grow up a bit for obvious reasons but that is only my opinion.
I wonder sometimes if you say things to get people rilled up for fun or if you actually believe the classical hype. TCMA, MMA, or TJMA should always look out for effectivness of what they are learning.

[mantis7]

I have seen more than my share of long fist, tai chi, ect ect ect. You don't know me Abel and I really don't know you. You are commenting on my knowledge with out even knowing what I have been exposed to. If you are saying that Long fist does not have superfoulus movements then you should stick to speaking on and commenting on threads that you have actual knowledge on.

That is if I assume that you don't know long fist , ect ect but I won't assume :)

[Black Jack II]

Wow, if that is what 8 Step Mantis is pushing, I call get to call cult first.

[mantis7]

Its not a cult Black... It is what people are taught as being effective. There is actually a lot of good in most Mantis systems but there is also a lot of bad and stuff that is just antiquaited. You just have to sift through the stuff to find out what works and what doesn't.

As far as being a cult.... just don't ask for anything to drink j/k

[NJM]

Let's bring down the hate, just a notch. Mantis will supply the Koolaid, and I will supply the cheesits.

[mantis7]

There is no hate on my part. Sifu Abel has his opinion and is entitled to it as am I.

Just to clarify, I don't think TCMA as a whole is worthless but there is stuff that is just ineffective. Hey, I drank the kool aid on many occassions :) and I would probably do it again :)

[Black Jack II]

Wow, if that is what 8 Step Mantis is pushing, I call get to call cult first

Saying you can cure a neck injury with fake mystical energy can be called cult-like......that is some absurd stuff.

[mantis7]

Umm, I didn't see that picture.... I think it is absurd as well but that is not martial imo and something he would have to clarify himself. dealing with that kind of stuff is like messing with someone's religion. With techniques you can prove what works and what doesn't work and there is no wiggle room. With that kind of stuff... I rather stick to techniques...

[Knifefighter]

Speaking of useless: The rolling hands portion of push hands.

Notice how the competitors switch to more functional grappling control as soon as the referee says "begin" and they are not forced to do the rolling hands B.S. any further:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi_5d8iDSPg&mode=related&search=

[Ben Gash]

The rolling hands is to develop sensitivity and to teach you to yield, it's not supposed to be combat effective per se, it's a drill for developing specific skills in beginners.

[David Jamieson]

i think people need to understand that the amount of information tied into all of what tcma is , is not only vast in breadth but also in depth.

myriad weapons, paths of study that have nothing to do with fighting but instead focus on healing, or strictly killing as quickly as possible, or even methods to quiet people without bringing harm and so on.

I mean, when you have a line of study that is pursued ad-nauseum for hundreds and hundreds of years then you wind up with more info than one person can actually be able to undertake the complete learning of.

now, most of the kungfu people out there will tell you that in the end it's about the person and the spirit and intention of what they are doing.

that can't be replaced by something other.

it is what it is and can be accepted as a whole without as an individual having to pursue the parts that one finds quaint or antiquated or out of context etc etc.

philosophies on living are often inclusive, ie: buddhism and taoism, which are more religio-philosophy than straight up religion. (remember all the christian folks that figure qigong and meditation is akin to devil worship. these people need to understand that it is not that at all.)

so, how is the sport and pastime of simply fighting using whatever style going to be better than the pursuit of being a better human being through the path of traditional martial arts.

some people just lose perspective i think.

[EarthDragon]

mantis7
If you are so adamant about "Mantis" trapping being succeful as taught please give us an example. But please notice I said Multi-tier trapping and bridging. I am not speaking about pressing and lifting or grabbing and plucking. I am talking about double pressing,cross hand trapping thinking you can actually trap a jab cross combo nonsese.

I was talking about trapping from a mantis stand point. pluck lift send listen etc etc..... there is no multi teared seccessional or whatever you call it in real mantis. if you cant trap you cant close gates or enter gates... in fighting is the way to defeat.

For those of you so ignorant to not yet completely understand qigong "like the idoits who did not beleive in gravity until it was proven" and its healing properties i suggest spending more time in the TCMA and see how many times it comes up and ho herbology and tuina are vital parts of a whole.... for the others keep doing your punch kick drill workouts the olympics are comming to america soon....

learning part ie. fighting only of the whole ie TCMA does not make you educated enough to make comments especially from fopa who has 7 posts??????? whos hiding thier identiy behind 2 screen names??? LOL go break some baked pine boards with spacers for our entertainment.

I love the newbies on the main board.... they know so much..... now go wax all of our cars........... wax on wax off

[EarthDragon]

PS david J, thank you again for your knowledge and elliquit way of explaining things to the newbies... I tired of trying.. futile and wasted qi explaining things to deaf ears..............

I had to convince a guy that his shaolin style from shan dong had worship, meditation chanting , religon, caligraphy and gardening skills were taught years before fighting ...to which he replied their was never those things in his style only combat fighting and weapondry....... I rest my case...

but i cant be possibly typing this beacuse there also is no such thing as qi... so i must be dead.....

knifefighter, perhaps you should understnad and learn more about what you trying to cut down before you make such statements like the one above its just proves you lack of understanding. like saying taiji is for seinors and you cant beat somebody up when you move that slow.........

[Knifefighter]

knifefighter, perhaps you should understnad and learn more about what you trying to cut down before you make such statements like the one above its just proves you lack of understanding. like saying taiji is for seinors and you cant beat somebody up when you move that slow.........

LOL... read the skill transfer article. Then you will understand.

Never mind... someone who does most of his stuff dancing around like a dying bug will probably never understand. Plus, I'm sure many of the words in there are too long for you to understand.

[EarthDragon]

knife dont get defensive and make smart comments like a school kid, I simply said to this comment made by you

Speaking of useless: The rolling hands portion of push hands.

Notice how the competitors switch to more functional grappling control as soon as the referee says "begin" and they are not forced to do the rolling hands B.S. any further:

you obviously dont know what tuisao is or its dynamics advanced or basic. granted the girls were beginners and lacked skill but the roll is a neutral strating position and meant to teach beginners as Ben Gash already said. so before you can comment and preach the bible you might want to read it first.... its better to keep quite and let people think your ignorant than open you mouth and prove it.

and i mean ignorant in the correct term I am not name calling. as I stick out my tounge and mumble mmm

OH YEA PS how do you know I spend most of my time dancing around????? have you been peeping in my windows again? i thought you had a warning not to do that to me from the cops the first time............. naughty naughty

[sanjuro_ronin]

Useless...hmmm...

I used to think that spinning hooks kicks were useless, then I saw my TKD instructor take out a guy with one in a bar fight ( he introduced me to bouncing in T.O.).

I think that any useless technique is any one that is used outside what it was created for.

[Nick Forrer]

I think the question is slightly flawed

All bullets are useless unless you have a working gun to shoot them with

Techniques require correct timing, speed, strategy, power, precision, mechanics positioning (angle/distance) etc. to work - without them all techniques are useless - with them you could probably make most if not all techniques work in the correct situation.

[Black Jack II]

http://www.8stepusa.com/photoqg.php

Look, if anyone wants to get a basic idea of what I mean by a sinophile, this picture can tell at least some of the tale. Here we have a guy who for all intents and purposes may be a very smart fellow, but because of a bizzare fetish to be an asian Luke Skywalker, he has the disabling lack of ability to tell fanatsy from reality.

It's sad really, thinking you can heal a neck energy by moving your hands around someones head and focusing your energy into the damaged area and yes it fits right into with group cult-think. If a school is actually passing this off you know the old saying, if it walks like a ducks and quacks like a duck.

If any of this was true, the established medical community would be using it, the West has the most advanced medical technology and information in the world, but for some reason this is left out......:rolleyes:


For those of you so ignorant to not yet completely understand qigong "like the idoits who did not beleive in gravity until it was proven" and its healing properties i suggest spending more time in the TCMA and see how many times it comes up and ho herbology and tuina are vital parts of a whole.... for the others keep doing your punch kick drill workouts the olympics are comming to america soon....

First of all, comparing qiqong to gravity is so not appropriate I don't even know where to start. Gravity is real where Qi is abracadabra trying to pass itself off as junk science, not even that, but the meaning of Qi changes from one person to the next, nobody seems to have the same basic answer on this very forum.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.8stepusa.com/photoqg.php

Haahahahahaha!!! Speaking of useless.

[David Jamieson]

you two loogans gonna fixate on Mike for a while?

knife, you've posted yourself and proven yourself a troll and lacking in what you say you have.

BJ2, you got nothing to show and even less to say of any value.

I gotta ask why you even bother with us stupid kungfu guys? You got nothing to show us and very little to contribute to anyones training path and yet here you are day after day with your ufc masturbation contests.

man, if there was a picture of loser, it would be yours and not the mantis sifu you are poking fun at. who by the way was very good natured of all the fun we've poked at him over the years.

But you guys are just acidic twits. Not even kungfu people, what are you doing here?

[SPJ]

I would like to hear ferom the forum, which techniques do yuo feel were placed in your forms that you believe are useless, whether they are strictly for show, or outdated.
Please be very specific, rather than simply making blanket statements such as "high kicks" or "Forms." I would be curious one-that just how long a list we get, and two-whether people can find a legitimate reason for such moves.

depends on your school and the architecture of your forms.

each move or posture has its own life or apps.

but when you place them together, in order for them to flow or transition smoothly, we have to modify, thus creating seemingly not useful or losing purpose in terms of apps for fighting.

how do you sort them out.

take them apart and study and practice each move or posture at a time.

and link a few of them "logically" for apps in fighting. a short combo or series.

and not to worry about "looks" and continuation of long segments of forms.

--

:D

[EarthDragon]

Daid J, thanks for the help but battling wits with these guys the only help I need is grabbing some rope and tieing my hands behind my back to make it
fair for them...

black jack and the other guy knife

skywalker? LOL I like that gonna addd it to my sig...

ok on to biz

It's sad really, thinking you can heal a neck energy by moving your hands around someones head and focusing your energy into the damaged area and yes it fits right into with group cult-think.

so now ba bu is a cult? I am a lineage holder in a highly respected fighting system and you call us a cult? do some homework and get back to your studies..
dont you always quote and brag about6 the UFC.....?? BTW on the board for the UFC and trained a fighter who won twice so i must be a cult leader with zero or no fighting skill according to you right?

ok please read then back up any opposing proof at the end of this OK?

lets see 3,500 cured patients in 6 countires who stand in line and pay money to have my shrfu use Jin gon tzu li gong treaments. Hmmmmm Yes you are correct all these people are fooled and tricked and they took the plecebo and thier conditions and ailments are just in thier mind. even though 17 docttors in NY go to her regularly to treat diseases that they look for alturnatives to surgery.

There is NEVER been any documentation of qigong working... oh wait in America where medicine is 268 years old WE KNOW EVERYTHING.

jacka$$ you only speak from your limited experiance with NO proof to bacjk up what you say dude..... did you also think accupuncture was fake too?

according the AMA its a hoax until 16 years ago when it was formed as a viable form a treament.

as was chiropractic manipulation in the 50's so dont be so ignorant and make claims you cant back up..... try google some time research beofre you speak you only make others see the simple side of you.... BTW I am married to a doctor who does cancer and gene 51 research ar roswell cancer instuitute google that as well........... and has hosted my teacher to switzerland to speak in front of the swiss medical councilate for the last 3 years.. so why would they do this???? becuse what she does it fake?????


bruan step to the right........................................... brains step to the left.... black jack uhhhhh stand in the middle until we figure out what you have..........



If any of this was true, the established medical community would be using it, the West has the most advanced medical technology and information in the world, but for some reason this is left out......


becuse of comments like this.. LOL do your homework before you make uneducated foolish staments likme the one above...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Black Jack II]

dont you always quote and brag about6 the UFC.....??

???-wrong guy.


so now ba bu is a cult?

If your group tries to convince others that qi can be projected into for healing, that by moving your arms around and staring at some dudes head, that it is really going to change a neck injury, well then yes, that is what I would call it.


I am a lineage holder in a highly respected fighting system and you call us a cult?

I could care less about your lineage and yes you could be considered a cult if you fall into the paragraph above. If that is the case some could be label it as a marker for a cult. Faith healing is often a warning sign.


no fighting skill according to you right?

Easy Luke, I never brought up your fighting skill, let's stick to the point, I brought up your fake witchdoctor photo.


lets see 3,500 cured patients in 6 countires who stand in line and pay money to have my shrfu use Jin gon tzu li gong treaments. Hmmmmm Yes you are correct all these people are fooled and tricked and they took the plecebo and thier conditions and ailments are just in thier mind.

Yes, I would 110% say they are very desperate people, a number of them I bet with there back to the wall, looking for any cure, and yes they were either fooled or fell into a placebo.

btw-how much does your holy master charge for all these services??

It's not my fault you don't like other people's positions on the subject but that is mine.


oh wait in America where medicine is 268 years old WE KNOW EVERYTHING.

Who said we know everthing, but I tell you what, faith healing and mystical energy projection is considered criminal by my account and either way you look at it, Western medicine is the most advanced we have for treatment at this time in the world.


jacka$$ you only speak from your limited experiance with NO proof to bacjk up what you say dude..... did you also think accupuncture was fake too?

If you want me to respond to your drivel, then watch the attacks, again its not my problem you get all prissy when people don't drink the koolaid. I have been in the nutritional field for over 12 years. Nature's Plus, New Chapter, GNC, The Vitamin Shoppe, working with manufacturers, field management and consulting, in this time you get to see a lot of rubbish.


as was chiropractic manipulation in the 50's so dont be so ignorant and make claims you cant back up

Chiropractic medicine is considered bunk by many, again not everyone drinks your koolaid dude.


BTW I am married to a doctor who does cancer and gene 51 research ar roswell cancer instuitute google that as well

Why would I care who you are married to???


becuse what she does it fake?????

What does her career have to do with this bullsh!t post about qi qong curing a neck injury. The money says you believe in chi projection in a martial fashion as well....:rolleyes:

btw....learn how to forge a structure to a paragraph.

Cheers,

[Pork Chop]

to go back to the original question...

anything that involves too much arm chasing is not good.

anything where the application has you doing too much while your opponent just leaves his arm out there is garbage.

any stand up fighting apps that rely too much on grabbing someone's arm (with your fingers/grip) at the end of a strike and holding it for more than just a microsecond probably has a low success rate.

slight parries are cool, but any block that is overly committed or complicated can be dangerous.

i might've thought weird looking hand strikes were ineffective if i wasn't surrounded by this in high school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc
I know half the people on the grass doing kata (the lady's my old high school friend's mom). The drumming stuff's what I do on the weekends (coz it's fun). I figure if you're willing to put in the time, effort, and commitment of disfiguring yourself, then those strikes can definitely be usable...

[EarthDragon]

black jack
Without wasting my time or your time lets just agree to disagree.

If you think that qigong has no healing properties and the chinese have been just lieing to people and no one has evern been healed in the last 4,000 from it and you want to live life thinking the world is flat than thats fine.

I have too much to do promoting my professional heavyweight fight due here in 2 months so rather than try to explian the healing properties of medicine to a screen name on the internet lets just bow and you keep practicing.......... PS be carful sailing or you will fall off... be well black jack sorry for the jabs no harm intended, justs gets tiring trying to get the newbies to see past the the tip of thier noses

[EarthDragon]

pokchop.......
awsome vid thanks for sharing. I studied GoJyu Ryu till BB for 6 years the old school way in the 80's and my sensei was tough as nails just like that guy. I would love to see anyone talking crap about usless tech train a fraction of the years this man spent... kicking with the big toe... nice

This is sooooo the problem with todays MA kids spend a year training and they say that the stuff they are learning doesnt work.... LOL.

his system is 280 years old are those strikes useless and antiqated???? bawhaaaa

[Black Jack II]

Without wasting my time or your time lets just agree to disagree

That's cool. I have zero problem with disagreement. I have a feeling we most likely disagree on a number of things in this respect but that is what is great, we can all have our own differences.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have the feeling TenTigers is somewhere chuckling to himself.

Maybe it is not the form that is useless. Maybe it is the practitioner's lack of understanding.

mickey

[TenTigers]

"I have the feeling TenTigers is somewhere chuckling to himself.

Maybe it is not the form that is useless. Maybe it is the practitioner's lack of understanding."

;)

[TenTigers]

hey, I couldn't find a link to this, but I'm sure some of you "old timers" might remember this;
Many years ago, like about twenty something, Washin-Ryu Sensei Hidy Ochai was challenged to a full-contact match by one of his former students. This student had become a professional kickboxer, and claimed that Ochai-Sensei's Karate and ancient trainnig methods were innefective, and outdated, and no match for a professional trainied kickboxer.
The match was set, Ochai-Sensei obliterated the kickboxer, using only traditional Karate. His former student bowed to him and asked to be taken back.

I used to have that article hanging in my office. If I had it now, I would frame it and hang it over my makiwara.

[tattooedmonk]

hey, I couldn't find a link to this, but I'm sure some of you "old timers" might remember this;
Many years ago, like about twenty something, Washin-Ryu Sensei Hidy Ochai was challenged to a full-contact match by one of his former students. This student had become a professional kickboxer, and claimed that Ochai-Sensei's Karate and ancient trainnig methods were innefective, and outdated, and no match for a professional trainied kickboxer.
The match was set, Ochai-Sensei obliterated the kickboxer, using only traditional Karate. His former student bowed to him and asked to be taken back.

I used to have that article hanging in my office. If I had it now, I would frame it and hang it over my makiwara.This is EPIC!!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

"I have the feeling TenTigers is somewhere chuckling to himself.

Maybe it is not the form that is useless. Maybe it is the practitioner's lack of understanding."

;)I have to say......+ 1:D;)

[tattooedmonk]

:D
you two loogans gonna fixate on Mike for a while?

knife, you've posted yourself and proven yourself a troll and lacking in what you say you have.

BJ2, you got nothing to show and even less to say of any value.

I gotta ask why you even bother with us stupid kungfu guys? You got nothing to show us and very little to contribute to anyones training path and yet here you are day after day with your ufc masturbation contests.

man, if there was a picture of loser, it would be yours and not the mantis sifu you are poking fun at. who by the way was very good natured of all the fun we've poked at him over the years.

But you guys are just acidic twits. Not even kungfu people, what are you doing here?I asked this question too.

[Fuzzly]

I just want to say this.

Whether Qigong can work or not for medicine has not been an area of extensive medical study. Basically all we have is a "he said she said." This can be said to be the case for chiropractic as well. I have heard some people say chiropractic is bunk.

Personally, I used to have horrible sciatic nerve pain. I didn't know what the cause was at the time. It would get so bad some days I couldn't walk. It actually sucked, because since I hadn't busted my knee, my own family thought I was faking the pain.

I was talking to one lady, and she said that she had the same problem, and it was due to her back. So I make an appointment with a chiropractor, and he did an examination of me. He explained the problem, and helped fix the problem. He also taught me how to fix the problem myself if I felt it starting to happen again. Since then I've only been back when I started working at a factory, and my upper back was killing me. He helped with that pain, and taught me how to fix that.

So, if chiropractic worked for me, I'd be willing to try qigong.

[tattooedmonk]

I just want to say this.

Whether Qigong can work or not for medicine has not been an area of extensive medical study. Basically all we have is a "he said she said." This can be said to be the case for chiropractic as well. I have heard some people say chiropractic is bunk.

Personally, I used to have horrible sciatic nerve pain. I didn't know what the cause was at the time. It would get so bad some days I couldn't walk. It actually sucked, because since I hadn't busted my knee, my own family thought I was faking the pain.

I was talking to one lady, and she said that she had the same problem, and it was due to her back. So I make an appointment with a chiropractor, and he did an examination of me. He explained the problem, and helped fix the problem. He also taught me how to fix the problem myself if I felt it starting to happen again. Since then I've only been back when I started working at a factory, and my upper back was killing me. He helped with that pain, and taught me how to fix that.

So, if chiropractic worked for me, I'd be willing to try qigong.actually there has been a great amount of research in this area and there are incredible findings in these studies. the stuff works .

It all works in the proper context. You would not use a hammer to tighten a bolt would you ??:D

[fopah]

This is the problem with qigong... any real use that it may have is always shrouded in these money grubbing frauds


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

and then dillman makes some crap up on why it didnt work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

[tattooedmonk]

This is the problem with qigong... any real use that it may have is always shrouded in these money grubbing frauds


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

and then dillman makes some crap up on why it didnt work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGII agree. There are always going to be people like this in the world who are more interested in the money than the actual skill or need to benefit someone other than themselves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hey, I couldn't find a link to this, but I'm sure some of you "old timers" might remember this;
Many years ago, like about twenty something, Washin-Ryu Sensei Hidy Ochai was challenged to a full-contact match by one of his former students. This student had become a professional kickboxer, and claimed that Ochai-Sensei's Karate and ancient trainnig methods were innefective, and outdated, and no match for a professional trainied kickboxer.
The match was set, Ochai-Sensei obliterated the kickboxer, using only traditional Karate. His former student bowed to him and asked to be taken back.

I used to have that article hanging in my office. If I had it now, I would frame it and hang it over my makiwara.

:D
I remember that, and Ochai was already old at the time too, though still in the great shape that he was always in.
Can't remember where I read that though...

[David Jamieson]

I just want to say this.

Whether Qigong can work or not for medicine has not been an area of extensive medical study.

Not in the terminological medicine of the western traditions. But in China and India, the two most populated countries on the planet, qigong and prana vedic (in essence very similar practices) take the front row in preventative medicine.

when you mix the acute treatment "western" medicine) with the chronic treatments (preventitive medicine, naturopathy, homeopthy etc etc) you get highly effective methods of care and treatment of the human machine.

this is recognized in my country and people may now obtain degrees through accredited universities in naturopathic medicine and other forms of preventative medicine directly lifted in parts from these more ancient practices.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when you mix the acute treatment "western" medicine) with the chronic treatments (preventitive medicine, naturopathy, homeopthy etc etc) you get highly effective methods of care and treatment of the human machine.



The correct view in my humble opinion and the view being expressed more and more nowadays.

[EarthDragon]

fopah, Yes I agree thier are some ridiculous claims out there when it comes to qigong. I dont give a crap about dillman. Only about what i have been taught and what i have felt first hand.

I hope you and others who have never MET me are not putting me in this catagory. I know people out there always say so and so cant fight before they ever cross hands......... these are the same people

I have bene practicing on my students and friends with minor soreness and small acute conditions some who dont even do matial arts and they all feel something, some feel much better some feel tingling and some are cured.

If you dont bleive that the body has energy simply put you hands almost together and rotate back and forth slowly from the lou gong point and you will feel magnetic energy. WTF is this then???????????????? QI

[mickey]

Greetings,

I remember hearing about the Ochai fight. I don't think it was featured in the "West Coast " magazines. Was it in Official Karate?


mickey

[TenTigers]

I think it was either in Official Karate, or Karate Illustrated.

[rogue]

Color me igrant but what is a traditional technique? As in he used only traditional techniques.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Color me igrant but what is a traditional technique? As in he used only traditional techniques.

Inner forearm block followed by reverse punch, with a loud kiai !

:D

[nguatroi]

i have some interesting insights/opinions on the a few of the the subjects you have all discussed.

First to the topic of the thread. forms teach proper technique and coordination. regardless of the efficacy of a technique, coordination is key in any physical activity its also what martial artists incredible athletes. how many times have i seen a new student walk in on his first day unable to throw a proper punch. this could have been you. your instructor will never tell you. :D bottom line forms are incredibly important. its also why some people might not do well at muay thai but it seems more people are successful with muay thai boran. oddly even bruce lee was beginning to realize this with jeet kun do.

china's main form of medicine is qigong which includes acupressure and acupuncture. both are proven technologies. don't believe me go get a massage after a grueling work out and tell me how you feel. it was noted in a PBS documentary hosted by alan alda that china cures cancer about 70% of the time with no re-occurrence. in america its 30% without re-occurrence.

a friend of mine snapped a vertebrae while playing soccer. wester doctors gave him a 0 chance of walking or running again let alone playing soccer even though he could still feel his legs. luckily his gf's father at the time was a qigong doctor. with a bleak outlook he gave it a try. several acupressure sessions later he was walking again. western doctors called it a miracle. he still plays soccer.

from my point of view qigong is cultish and witchcraft. of course western medicine is barbarism. gentlemen they cut people open to fix them!!! to this day if you have major tissue damage to a limb amputation is the remedy. would you like to know why. cause to try save the limb will result in a malpractice lawsuit if the surgery to save the limb fails. ask a western doctor that is an old friend if you don't believe me. i did when my friends wife lost her leg in a car accident.

finally about the UFC incredible martial art. i hate watching it. generally cause i don't think its entirely realistic. unless your two men fighting on a desert island. here's what i mean. if you watch both pride and ufc like i did you'll note an interesting anomaly. stand up fighters prevail in pride while ground fighter prevail in the UFC. with further research you'll uncover the fact that the octagon was designed by rickson gracie.

i grew up and live in one of the most dangerous cities in the country. which has also taken the lackluster title of murder capital USA more than once. growing up there was no such things as a one on one fight. period. which is why the second thing you learn is that if you go to the ground you'll be left dead or in a coma.

the last street fight i was in started with some rather large guy about 250 lbs at least (i'm 150) sucker punching me. luckily the shot only grazed the side of my head. in the middle of the fight we both ended up losing our balance and falling. we both immediately rolled away from each other and got up. why cause he and i both knew our friends were nearby and didn't want our heads kicked in if a 10 on 10 brawl broke out. oddly he would have destroyed me on the ground due to his weight advantage. he did realize this later on. the fight ended when he tried to tackle me and pinned me to a car. my feet were off the ground i was raining my right fist down on his face my left thumb firmly inserted palm deep in his eye socket.

so you don't question my character, the fight started when my friend handed me $40 to buy as much beer as i could for his bbq. he followed me out to my car and demanded that i use the money to buy him drugs. he got angry when i refused.

[Shaolin Wookie]

the last street fight i was in started with some rather large guy about 250 lbs at least (i'm 150) sucker punching me. luckily the shot only grazed the side of my head. in the middle of the fight we both ended up losing our balance and falling. we both immediately rolled away from each other and got up. why cause he and i both knew our friends were nearby and didn't want our heads kicked in if a 10 on 10 brawl broke out. oddly he would have destroyed me on the ground due to his weight advantage. he did realize this later on. the fight ended when he tried to tackle me and pinned me to a car. my feet were off the ground i was raining my right fist down on his face my left thumb firmly inserted palm deep in his eye socket.

That is like the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. Please tell me you have more stories to share. It's good to hear from a traditional martial artist who use solid eye gouging techniques when the fight becomes real and deadly; all those "ring legal" techniques have nothing on "street lethal" techniques. So, what angle did you gouge his eye at, and did you corkscrew your thumb in a clockwise or counterclockwise motion? I think if you add about ten lbs. of force with a counterclockwise motion you get the best results--at least by my experience. But then, if you apply 20 lbs. of force in the clockwise motion, you get the same. But it's about efficiency in the end, wouldn't you say? Tai Chi, the yin yang, and effortless power.....

Welcome to the board.


so you don't question my character, the fight started when my friend handed me $40 to buy as much beer as i could for his bbq. he followed me out to my car and demanded that i use the money to buy him drugs. he got angry when i refused.

WTF?! GET THE **** OUT OF HERE. If your friend wants you to buy him drugs, you be a good friend and buy him some drugs, ******! You're not a good friend, and I'm sorry I praised your eye-gouging techniques. You make me sicker than a methadone-relapse.

[Mook Jong]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;856927]let's have a warm welcome for the latest model in the never ending line of TCMA zombies folks! isn't he great? give him a hand!


[QUOTE]

1) LMAO
2)If you give him a hand, he might bury it palm deep in your face. I heard his are registered as deadly weapons and he needs a permit to carry concelaed weapons when he wears gloves :p:rolleyes::D

[Shaolin Wookie]

a friend of mine snapped a vertebrae while playing soccer. wester doctors gave him a 0 chance of walking or running again let alone playing soccer even though he could still feel his legs. luckily his gf's father at the time was a qigong doctor. with a bleak outlook he gave it a try. several acupressure sessions later he was walking again. western doctors called it a miracle. he still plays soccer. from my point of view qigong is cultish and witchcraft.

It's not a miracle, obviously. It's the healing power of witchcraft. There's some women in the Congo who have been shrinking men's wangs lately with their witchery (http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/04/theft-of-manhood-in-congo.html). The only qigong I know to cure the "shrunken head" is a deep breathing exercise where you concentrate your exhalations in intense out-breaths and pool the chi in your ballocks....we call it the Blow Job. I don't trust those Western methods of penile restoration. The *****-pump (I know someone whose wang split in half from the air pressure like a hot dog that's been boiling too long, and he had to get four stitches (flaccid) to put humpty dumpty [that's what he called it] back together again), the cock pushup (which, being aerobic, is bad for the phallus maximus), and and the taffy stretcher (which hurts like hell, even though it works---although it'll forever hang to your kneecaps and bruise when you run. Personally, I just say leave it well enough alone and accept your ***** for what it is, all four inches of it (flaccid, I swear!)

[cerebus]

Interesting thread. Even more interesting the replies generated. Having trained in Northern Mantis and Shaolin as well as San Da/ San Shou and, most recently Hsing-I and Bagua, and having fought in many full-contact matches, I can say that there are really NO "useless techniques" in any of the arts I've trained (including many which have been named as "useless" by other members on this thread).

Every techniques has certain types of opponents it will work against, and others it won't work against. None of them are truly "useless" though (not any that I've encountered at least). There WAS a time when I thought in those terms ("this works, but that doesn't") then, I gained wider exposure to a wider variety of opponents and found that there are techniques for every type of opponent. One just needs to train widely enough to learn when, where, and against whom to use each technique...

[Yum Cha]

So, no bad tools, just tools that think they are bad?

Or is it, "a lousy craftsman blames his tool, especially when the the craftsman is a tool?"

Maybe, its McGyver syndrone - one simple tool, and with my skill I build a thermo-nuclear weapon and vaporise your a$$!

No! Wait! I geddit, a tool in the hand brings a quick solution!

So, lets see: MMA guys that once took a weekend kung fu-ish seminar claiming everything they learned at the seminar was useless cause they tried it sparring once, and that's why they never practiced it.

Traditionalists with lopsided experience trying to cover their exposed marketing flanks...

Sensible types trying to make sense where there is no sense for miles about, and nobody is interested anyhow....

Most the local suspects munching popcorn in the background waiting for some good quality flame to start flowing....or maybe for Ronin to figure out a way to segway to a babe pic.....(hint hint).

man, I must be bored....