Listen

[Hung gar]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNT3GkgC34s

[NJM]

He speaks the truth.

[golden arhat]

the problem is the majority of chinese styles

dont work


mma and forward thinking beats all the end

u should all accept that and take what u can from wherever u can

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ having to conciously make the system you are training in "look" a certain way. This is the theoretical non-fighters' view of how they think fighting is supposed to be.

Who cares how it "looks"? Fighting doesn't look a certain way because you try to make it that way... it looks a certain way based on each specific situation and any rules that might be present.

The reality based combat systems don't care about how something "looks" because they are based on functionality. A boxing, wrestling, Judo, Samb, MMA or BJJ coach would never even think about giving a speech like that because it is completely irrelevant. A functionally based coach would be talking about strategies, techniques and tactics, not some gobbldigook about making one's art look a certain way.

[Hung gar]

Chinese styles do work just because you cant apply the technique does not mean someone else can. You are right about conciously make the system you are training in "look" a certain way. It should be praticed enough that its unconscious.

[Knifefighter]

Chinese styles do work just because you cant apply the technique does not mean someone else can.

According to the person giving the speech, the techniques were not working. According to him, the forms and weapons work was not being translated into fighting. That was his whole point in his "make it look like CMA" speech.

Maybe it's not a matter of making in "unconcious" (after all the weapons and forms would have been at this unconcious level), but more a matter of the forms not being applicable to fighting.

[Hung gar]

What i am say is that the applaciton shoud be pacticed to a piont of unconscious not the forms.

[msg]

[QUOTE=golden arhat;786393]the problem is the majority of chinese styles

dont work




thats a bs quote that would be lack experience and being young and fullish at heart

[golden arhat]

thats a bs quote that would be lack experience and being young and fullish at heart

look we have proved time and again that what we do works and what u do does not

this is undisputed

and until u can prove me wrong u can not say the opposite

[golden arhat]

oh yeah and btw i'm chjanging what i said from "most chinese styles"
to

"most traditional styles" so at least i'm not a rascist

some principles and methods can be adapted and taken fromTMA but in their present state most trad styles

dont work

period

flame all u want

[NJM]

I took his speech as a call for the return of "testing what works" (being as he mentioned it) and progression; I guess a narrowminded person would assume that when he said to fight with your style he meant that you should ditch all other fighting styles.

[Hung gar]

golden arhat just because you have no talent for tmc doesn't mean you should put it down.

[NJM]

golden arhat just because you have no talent for tmc doesn't mean you should put it down.

Although I'm sure that Arhat doesn't have much talent in "Traditional Martial China" I think that he simply wants to see a progressive martial arts community. Unfortunately he isn't very diplomatic about it.

[golden arhat]

Although I'm sure that Arhat doesn't have much talent in "Traditional Martial China" I think that he simply wants to see a progressive martial arts community. Unfortunately he isn't very diplomatic about it.

ur right

i have no tact i just tell it like it is

i would like to see a wrld where we all take whats useful from everywhere
adhere to principles instead of pointless flowery things

the fruit not the flower

[Laukarbo]

ur right

i have no tact i just tell it like it is



lol:rolleyes:

[NJM]

ur right

i have no tact i just tell it like it is

i would like to see a wrld where we all take whats useful from everywhere
adhere to principles instead of pointless flowery things

the fruit not the flower

Here's where we run into a problem. Every style has things that don't work. Every style has flowery movements or movements that aren't easily applied in real fights. Many things in Shaolin forms are meant to help the form transition from one stage to another and do not have technique, yet it is still useful to the form. Many contain techniques, like kicks, that exist in exercise form in the sets but have applicable forms in sparring. If you do not have a teacher there to interpret for you, you will not learn the correct application.

I know you've heard this from many people, and it doesn't carry as much weight as it used to. But the "flowery" moves are meant to be cut away through sparring and testing, and they aren't meant to weaken proper practice. I see no harm in having exercise versions of movements as long as the practitioner knows it and tests his sets through sparring.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There are too many teachers who don't know the proper apps, and just make stuff up out of untested theory though.

[Knifefighter]

Every style has things that don't work. Every style has flowery movements or movements that aren't easily applied in real fights. .

Really? Which techniques in BJJ don't work? Where are the flowery movements in wrestling? Which Muay Thai techniques are hard to apply in a real fight?

[lkfmdc]

Here's a simple question, why is it that all we hear is whining and biotching about how everyone that fights "looks like kickboxing"? So where are the people fighting, in some realistic full contact format, looking like "a crane"? Or "a snake"?

If you really think the masters of old fought looking like Shaw brothers' movies, man I feel sorry for you.....

Too much time doing forms, hiding in caves and doing fluff.... fighting is kicks, knees, punches, elbows and grappling. It's not "Chinese" anymore than it is "Korean" or "Japanese"...... Sambo is Russian, looks a lot like Judo, Shuai Chiao is Chinese, looks a lot like Judo. Take off the jackets, it all looks like wrestling

Why is it the only people who even do end up "fighting Chinese" do so in very limited venues against very limited competition?

[DPL]

TCMA has got to have the biggest inferiority complex of any major martial art. You just don't see this constant 'we can't fight' attitude in JMA. In CMA it appears to be a fact of life that you're always trying to defend whether what you do is worth a dam or not.

Blame it on the mysticism or the Matrix or whatever the frak you want to blame it on, but it never goes away.

[NJM]

TCMA has got to have the biggest inferiority complex of any major martial art. You just don't see this constant 'we can't fight' attitude in JMA. In CMA it appears to be a fact of life that you're always trying to defend whether what you do is worth a dam or not.

Because we are respected enough to be challenged. Some of those arts have been given up on by the legit MA community.

[NJM]

Really? Which techniques in BJJ don't work? Where are the flowery movements in wrestling? Which Muay Thai techniques are hard to apply in a real fight?

Well, my friend, I should have left out the former sentence. All techniques "work" against a compliant rubber doll opponent. However, you must admit that there are BJJ techniques which would be hard to execute during a streetfight. I'm no BJJ expert and I don't know the names, but I think you can figure a few out, being as you do know the names. I find it hard to believe that every, single move taught in any one style works.

As for Muy Thai, that double uppercut move wouldn't work in a real fight, just like the trainer said on that Human Weapon show. And before people get ****y about me referencing the show, I want to point out that what that trainer said was praised by Bullshido and people at KFM, if I'm not mistaken.

[RonH]

look we have proved time and again that what we do works and what u do does not

this is undisputed

and until u can prove me wrong u can not say the opposite

If you treat imitation van Gogh, like it was true van Gogh, and put your own painting skills up against imitation van Gogh, you are not really showing that van Gogh was bad. Improperly done van Gogh painting is not van Gogh painting.


Why is it the only people who even do end up "fighting Chinese" do so in very limited venues against very limited competition?

Much of it requires self-analysis and contemplation for proper development. One of the main ideas, especially in taijiquan, is giving up the ego. By doing so, it lessens the desire for excessive ego gratification, which translates in a lessening of a need to 'prove' to others you know how to fight. It's connected to that thing that's tought to kids that it doesn't matter that other kids at school know you can do something; what matters is that you know you can do it. Given the true extensiveness of CMA cirriculums, finer and finer precision is eventually attained, showing that it takes less and less to do something, but to reach that level isn't easy. External arts are literally and figuratively bulldozing your way through a fight. Internal arts are more about sublty with some bulldozing, with varying amounts with each internal art. But, eventually, bulldozing with an external art necessitates moving away from bulldozing and focusing on sublty to attain higher skill.

[lkfmdc]

Much of it requires self-analysis and contemplation for proper development. One of the main ideas, especially in taijiquan, is giving up the ego.



you've got to be f-in joking.... precisely the kind of fantasy land crap that makes people laugh at TCMA people.... dude, that's pathetic!




lessening of a need to 'prove' to others you know how to fight.



translation = NO, we can't fight with this stuff :rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

Dave, don't waste your time with this guy - I lost a few hours of my life I'll never get back "debating" with him to no avail about his tenuous grasp on reality (he has limitless amounts of Kool Aide on hand, appears to me):
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47322

BTW - the guy in the video is DANGEROUS - lots of impressionable, sincere folks hearing this crapola and taking it seriously: what's WRONG with TCMA is that judges in tournaments think that they have carte blanche and poetic license to pontificate their personal philosophies and that peole who paid $ to come and compete are obligated to listen to them (but he's got really cool hair! blows away GM Sin Thé)

[lkfmdc]

Dave, don't waste your time with this guy - I lost a few hours of my life I'll never get back "debating" with him to no avail about his tenuous grasp on reality (he has limitless amounts of Kool Aide on hand, appears to me):



oh, yeah, this is one of the fake chi healers isn't it? :rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

oh, yeah, this is one of the fake chi healers isn't it? :rolleyes:

yep - healing the world, a million people at a time (without either he or they even knowing it...); read the thread if you want some real entertainment...

[NJM]

Dave, don't waste your time with this guy - I lost a few hours of my life I'll never get back "debating" with him to no avail about his tenuous grasp on reality (he has limitless amounts of Kool Aide on hand, appears to me):
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47322
GM Sin Thé)

And so the linkwhoring begins...

[cjurakpt]

linkwhoring

isn't that when you take over a golf hole and don't let anyone play through?

[lkfmdc]

And so the linkwhoring begins...

Actually, identifying the fruit loops is relevant... let's look at what said fruit loop has actually said in the past;




I brought down an emotional barrier composed of 'anxiety energy', which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body.



As if that little tid-bit wasn't precious enough in and of itself......


I'm not a doctor, nor am I a med student.

whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

Credentials is not the issue.



yeah, I'm performing surgery with a rusty butter knife in the backyard tomorrow, please feel free to drop by :rolleyes:

[NJM]

Actually, identifying the fruit loops is relevant... let's look at what said fruit loop has actually said in the past;



As if that little tid-bit wasn't precious enough in and of itself......



yeah, I'm performing surgery with a rusty butter knife in the backyard tomorrow, please feel free to drop by :rolleyes:

Does this guy think he's one of those "psychic vampires"? :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Does this guy think he's one of those "psychic vampires"? :rolleyes:

me, personally, I am a love vampire......

and head of the new Scam-Lin Doh cult! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNT3GkgC34s

he obviously needs to do more stance training.

[Hung gar]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc Here's a simple question, why is it that all we hear is whining and biotching about how everyone that fights "looks like kickboxing"? So where are the people fighting, in some realistic full contact format, looking like "a crane"? Or "a snake"?

Because full contact format is not real kung fu its good for practicing distance and timing . In da street nicca I shoot my S**t like a **** crane and a f**kin tiger.

[xcakid]

No martial arts is the end all, be all of fighting. There are too many variables.

My sifu is also a cop by day. He uses a lot of the Chin and Shuia Chiao in his job. That comes directly from our style. He does however foregoes the high kicks and fancy stuff that we learn in class. Right tool for the right job. We learn all the other stuff so that we have them in our arsenal. Train harder than needed. We train kicking to the face so that its easier to kick the groin.

Being able to ascertain what works and what doesn't work for a particular situation your in at the time is up to the practitioner. If you are studying a well rounded art you should be able survive.

BJJ has flaws, CMA has flaws, TKD has flaws, etc. However, each and every art has something to offer. They have not lasted centuries cause there is nothing there. You just need to take out of it what you want. If you don't like forms, fine. Don't specialize in them, but there is something that can be gained by practicing them. This is like college guys. Everyone selects a major based on what they want to do. You learn things within that major, some of which you will never use in your profession. Most you will not retain. What is important to you will stay with you.

I personally do not rely on martials art 100% of the time. I would be insane to do so in this day and time. But the mindset I learn from it, stamina gained, and being able to move and hit is helpfull in confrontation. I also compete to get used to stress levels. I also work on iron palm conditioning and chi gung. Not to mention weapons training including firearms. Training in these individually will give me a fighting chance in a confrontation. However, training in ALL gives me a better understanding and hopefully will give me a leg up from your normal practioner and much more so with a non practioner.

One must be able to seperate the fru fru stuff from what works. But disregarding an entire art cause it does not do what you want it to so is ignorant and stupid. I am sometimes guilty of this with regard to BJJ.

[Hung gar]

I agree 100%

[David Jamieson]

No martial arts is the end all, be all of fighting. There are too many variables.

My sifu is also a cop by day. He uses a lot of the Chin and Shuia Chiao in his job. That comes directly from our style. He does however foregoes the high kicks and fancy stuff that we learn in class. Right tool for the right job. We learn all the other stuff so that we have them in our arsenal. Train harder than needed. We train kicking to the face so that its easier to kick the groin.

Being able to ascertain what works and what doesn't work for a particular situation your in at the time is up to the practitioner. If you are studying a well rounded art you should be able survive.

BJJ has flaws, CMA has flaws, TKD has flaws, etc. However, each and every art has something to offer. They have not lasted centuries cause there is nothing there. You just need to take out of it what you want. If you don't like forms, fine. Don't specialize in them, but there is something that can be gained by practicing them. This is like college guys. Everyone selects a major based on what they want to do. You learn things within that major, some of which you will never use in your profession. Most you will not retain. What is important to you will stay with you.

I personally do not rely on martials art 100% of the time. I would be insane to do so in this day and time. But the mindset I learn from it, stamina gained, and being able to move and hit is helpfull in confrontation. I also compete to get used to stress levels. I also work on iron palm conditioning and chi gung. Not to mention weapons training including firearms. Training in these individually will give me a fighting chance in a confrontation. However, training in ALL gives me a better understanding and hopefully will give me a leg up from your normal practioner and much more so with a non practioner.

One must be able to seperate the fru fru stuff from what works. But disregarding an entire art cause it does not do what you want it to so is ignorant and stupid. I am sometimes guilty of this with regard to BJJ.

this is the correct.

the dude with the qing dynasty que :rolleyes: (sorry, i don't swallow court robes and 100 year old haircuts on moderns too easy) has some points, but they are in context to who he is talking to and in his own experience.

there are flaws everywhere, polish them out with practice.

[lkfmdc]

full contact format is not real kung fu its good for practicing distance and timing . In da street nicca I shoot my S**t like a **** crane and a f**kin tiger.

another clueless kool aid drinker :rolleyes:

[Hung gar]

How am I clueless. The streets dont lie.

[Knifefighter]

another clueless kool aid drinker :rolleyes:

Speaking of clueless kool aid drinkers...


bla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... why are these guys here...blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... blabla... blah... blah... bla.

[David Jamieson]

Speaking of clueless kool aid drinkers...

nice. although, intellectually speaking, this is more reflective of where you are at. :p

[SPJ]

sort of ok speech.

use what ever you practice.

then you truly represent your school, teacher, linage etc.

--

nothing wrong with that.

:)

[brothernumber9]

nothing wrong, except he wanted to penalize participants if they did not "look" like their represented style. Well straight punches, roundhouse kicks, push kicks, and hooks are part of most styles and rightly so because they are simple and effective.

You know what a snake strike looks like with gloves on? A punch.

I know, since we have a one-armed set, we'll have one of our guys fight with just his left hand and the other behind his back. Sure one side if his face will be a lot bigger afterwards, but he'll be the R34L winner because he "represented" properly. :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The other thing to think about is that Long Fist styles (which are like 75% of Kung Fu) are basically kick boxing with the addition of locks, throws and various takedowns anyway.

[lkfmdc]

a hidden microphone at the event captured an intense dispute after the final match

"what do you mean I didn't win?"

"we penalized you for all that kickboxing!"

"what kickboxing?"

"I saw that hook you threw!"

"my so choy?"

"and that cross to the body"

"my chyuhn choy?"

"you think we didn't notice those Thai style leg kicks!!! Come on man!!!"

"you mean bouh chouh cham seh? :rolleyes:"

"listen, you have to bow, walk in a circle, do three bows, then a tornado kick, then demonstrate your snake and eagle boxing or we aren't gonna let you get away with anything, you understand!"

:rolleyes:

[Hung gar]

ikfmdc aka the idiotic kung fu master dumb c@nt is missing his whole piont.

[lkfmdc]

ikfmdc aka the idiotic kung fu master dumb c@nt is missing his whole piont.

here kid, here's a nickle, go buy some candy :rolleyes:

as a troll, you're an idiot

as an idiot, you're a master

don't get hit by a car crossing the street, look both ways

[SaintSage]

The statement itself has allowed my signature to grow.

[Lucas]

Many ways of doing things have flaws.

some say TMA doesnt work. Yes there are many principles and techniques that go outside the bounds of being functional and effecient.

However, take for instance your sport fighter.

if all he ever practices is sport, based on the sport rules....same deal.

he is conditionling his automatic responses to be in cohesion with the rules he trains under.

ive seen so many opportunities to drop an elbow into the back of a neck than i can count on all my appendages combined in sport fights.

sure sure, say well if it was a real fight he wouldnt do that, or say well the elbow to the back of the neck never works or people would never pull it off (LOL BY THE WAY ON THAT BACK ASSWARDS THINKING)

well point being, in your perfect world of functional combat, long term sport training can be a deterement to real world combat.

TMA, MMA, or any other MA for that matter all have their down sides.

No one art has a perfect balance between all aspects of life.

NONE.

TMA has its bad spots, as well as its good spots.

there are literall HUNDREDS of TMA techniques thrown in every MMA match you see.

thing is its called MODERN now, like that superman punch wasnt done 2k years ago :rolleyes:

BJJ????uh ya, most of those techs draw from TJJJ....so its still TMA, with a twist.

TMA is rooted in every MA you will ever see. if you dont know why, ill explain it to the slow ones.

Its called natrual progression. As humans we start from nothing, in any endeavor. and gradually we work our way up that slow long climb of evolution, still regarding any endeavor. Now through that slow arduous climb we find pitfalls and we find exceptional material.

when man first started fighting the progression began. fast forward to today.

you think any of those punches, kicks, throws, etc were NOT done in TMA? were NOT developed in the past or utilized by a TMA practitioner?

well i hope you dont think that, or you will have a VERY long way to go before you understand the process of human creation and development in regards to HUMAN activity.

MMA was born off the back of TMA by minds of the modern world who chose to take what WORKS and leave what doesnt.

but guess what kiddies, the stuff that was taken that works was not CREATED BY MMA fighters. it was drawn from thousands of years of human evolution.

anyone who says TMA has nothing to offer obvioulsy does not understand history or natrual human development very much....

:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

some say TMA doesnt work. Yes there are many principles and techniques that go outside the bounds of being functional and effecient.



Then why practice them? Why waste time doing them?




if all he ever practices is sport, based on the sport rules....same deal.

he is conditionling his automatic responses to be in cohesion with the rules he trains under.


NO, he is conditioning himself to use the techniques he practices against an alive, resitsting opponent...

IN a BJJ match, I stop the arm bar or choke when he taps, in the street, I break the arm or choke him out....

In a Muay Thai match, the knee I land on a trained, conditioned opponent is also going to land on the average undtrained and unconditined opponent. If my knee KO's the trained guy, it is gonna KO the untrained guy




sure sure, say well if it was a real fight he wouldnt do that, or say well the elbow to the back of the neck never works or people would never pull it off (LOL BY THE WAY ON THAT BACK ASSWARDS THINKING)



In something like 60 years of Gracie family challenges with NO RULES, tons of people tried the "deadly" elbow to the back of the neck... they all still got taken down and submitted




there are literall HUNDREDS of TMA techniques thrown in every MMA match you see.



Sure, that's correct, but funny thing is, under these conditions, it's the same pool of techniques. No one looks like a snake or a praying mantis

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sure, that's correct, but funny thing is, under these conditions, it's the same pool of techniques. No one looks like a snake or a praying mantis

Reply]
Why not?

[lkfmdc]

Why not?

LEARN TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION ALREADY! :mad:

Because the real world simply doesn't work like that.... if you think that the masters of old looked like a Shaw brothers' movie when they fought, you are out of your mind. Too much crap and fluff in TCMA so people are brain washed into thinking that "that isn't kung fu" or "that's just kickboxing" or similar worthless crap

Guess what,, there is only what works and what doesn't.... funny thing is that what the clueless kool aid drinkers think is "kung fu" simply never manifests itself in a real fight because they are living in fantasy land

They can carry on forever (and they will!) but they've hitched their dreams to a farse

[Hung gar]

here kid, here's a nickle, go buy some candy

as a troll, you're an idiot

as an idiot, you're a master

don't get hit by a car crossing the street, look both ways

Thats the lamest 1st grade come back ever

[lkfmdc]

Thats the lamest 1st grade come back ever

considering your age, I'm sure 1st grade come backs are still fresh in your mind :rolleyes:

run along and don't bother the adults

[Lucas]

See thats just it.

i am not going to the extreme saying hes going to screw himself if he trains with rules at all times. just that those preconditioned responses are still there.

regardless of what your goal is, your training will present itself when you must act without thinking.

regardless.

if you want to train for self defense on the street only, no way you will train with heavy rules in place to limit your automatic responses based on repetition, repetition, repetition.

if you do something one way 10 thousand times because a rule says so, on the street is your mind going to automatically adjust and do that one thing a different way than you have practiced 10 thousand times? likely not.

but see, im implying that every art has this.

sport, tma, mma(nonsport), etc.

of course some systems out there will have less or more of the non needed practices than others, but none has the full meal deal so to speak.

plus once you have a guy in a lock you have a bit more freedom to decide what to do, especially if you severely outclass your opponent.

now on even skill terms, GETTING the takedown/lock etc. will be based on your conditioning as you have less time to alters automatic response.


i remember frank shamrock hitting gracie in their last match to the neck with an elbow while on the ground.

gracie had to stop the match cause the "deadly elbow to the neck" MADE him

did you see that match?

[Hung gar]

I am not saying kung fu looks like a shaw movie thats stupid no one fights fo 20 min. Kung fu is supposed to defeat the opponent as quick as possible and it doesn't have to be pretty. my sigung told me if you every see someone doing flowery movements tell them they're dead.

[lkfmdc]

regardless of what your goal is, your training will present itself when you must act without thinking.



No, it won't... if you don't train to respond under alive conditions, what you will do is FREEZE.... very well documented plus the many anecdotal (sp?) stories of "black belts" getting killed ;)




i remember frank shamrock hitting gracie in their last match to the neck with an elbow while on the ground.

gracie had to stop the match cause the "deadly elbow to the neck" MADE him

did you see that match?



I saw it and I remember it well enough to know it wasn't an elbow to the back of the head and it was a condition completely irrelevant to your original point.

[brothernumber9]

I know it's a bit out of context but the mental images almost made me laugh.

"Hey you MAN! YOU doing the FLOwery Movements!! You're dead MAN! your DEAD!"

[lkfmdc]

I see dead people, all the time, everywhere I go

[WinterPalm]

Nice video!

He made a lot of points that many people should have had drilled home by their Sifu when engaged in hard contact fast paced sparring:

That is, do the techniques we train in! It is when people don't spar often or get quality instruction like this that they end up doing very poor kickboxing. Kickboxing is a whole discipline unto itself that has its own set of criteria. If you train in techniques for drills you should make them come out in your sparring and work on making them come out.

[Lucas]

No, it won't... if you don't train to respond under alive conditions, what you will do is FREEZE.... very well documented plus the many anecdotal (sp?) stories of "black belts" getting killed ;)



I saw it and I remember it well enough to know it wasn't an elbow to the back of the head and it was a condition completely irrelevant to your original point.

hmm. same fight i guess, but i thought i remember them saying and showing in slow mow how he elbowed gracie to the neck. and then gracie was holding his neck on his knees. and frank was disqualified...

Oh well.

Anywho....i guess all im getting at is no matter what you practice you are going to have to deal with your down sides.

every art and ever person has them. doesnt matter how bad ass you or your art is. no one is perfect.

to me its being able to choose what you want, and know what you shouldnt want.

and i will totally agree with the majority. TMA has A LOT of **** that doesnt need to be there.

Now I also know in regards to having your kungfu "look like your styel"

I know some of this pertains to the fact that some people believe that the structure involved with many techniques is in place for a reason. that it is the structure of the technique, if performed correctly, that lends it its destructive power.

Proper alignment, right muscle groups...etc.

A lot of people will say if you dont do your (for instance) side kick with the corect "form" it will not have the power that your style has worked so hard to develope through practice and development of the particular stucture.

yet we all know there are more than one ways to skin a cat. the question is, how do you want to skin it?

but im not about to get wrapped up in a debate with you Ross. I know better. I wont hold up for very long lol :p

[Knifefighter]

if you want to train for self defense on the street only, no way you will train with heavy rules in place to limit your automatic responses based on repetition, repetition, repetition.

How do you practice your "self-defense with no rules for the street" style? Does either you or or training partner end up dead or in the hospital each time you train?

I really would like to know the answer to this, because every time I ask it, the "self-defense for the street" guys never seem to answer it. How the heck to you guys train your deadly "street" techniques in a realistic manner?



if you do something one way 10 thousand times because a rule says so, on the street is your mind going to automatically adjust and do that one thing a different way than you have practiced 10 thousand times? likely not.

Who is going to be more effective on the street, the person who has practiced his technique 10 thousand times full force against a resisting opponent or the guy who has practiced his technique 10 thousand times in the air or at less than full force because it is too "deadly"?


i remember frank shamrock hitting gracie in their last match to the neck with an elbow while on the ground.
gracie had to stop the match cause the "deadly elbow to the neck" MADE him
did you see that match?

That was a shot to the back of the head, not a neck shot.

However, the neck shot can work, but it is not that effective unless thrown from a back mount... and, once again, who is going to be able to use that to their advantage, the sport guy who is practiced at getting the back mount (where the strike to the back of the neck is most effective) or the guy who has never really done it before and doesn't really know the best position in which to throw it.

The fact is, if you want to train for the street, the most effective model is the exact same one the "sport" fighters use... just add in some weapons, multiple opponents, and a few other aspects of things that can happen in reality and you're good to go.

Much better than dancing around like a dying bug and pretending to fight by pulling your punches.

[Lucas]

How do you practice your "self-defense with no rules for the street" style? Does either you or or training partner end up dead or in the hospital each time you train?

you must not understand what im saying. if you train 100% of the time with no elbows. what are the chances your going to throw an elbow when its the best option? probably lower than a guy who trains with elbows

BASIC ANALOGY, DONT FOCUS ON THE ELBOW OR YOU LOSE THE TEMPLE!!!

Who is going to be more effective on the street, the person who has practiced his technique 10 thousand times full force against a resisting opponent or the guy who has practiced his technique 10 thousand times in the air or at less than full force because it is too "deadly"?


read above. same principle. it WHOLEY depends on what rules you train under. EXAMPLE: OLYMPIC TKD PRACTITIONER. he trains under VERY unrealistic rules. you suggest he will excell at streetfighting? LOL. You seem to think im on a TMA vs MMA trip. im not. I include ALL forms of SPORT fighting. MMA isnt the only one out there i hope you realize. So you see, along this mindset i am displaying you may realize i know some SPORT styles will more closely resemble reality, yet rules are rules bro...
That was a shot to the back of the head, not a neck shot.


ahh, head/neck...either works.

...................

[Lucas]

NOTE: I never said one word about advocating form practice over resisting opponents.

you thought that one up all on your own....

this is just what makes me hate coming here sometimes.

some people ASSUME you advocate things you never even said you did.....its annoying and at best proves some people dont think their word through carefully enough to know where someone actually stands then to go and place words and even training principles and values in their mouths.....

[Knifefighter]

you must not understand what im saying. if you train 100% of the time with no elbows. what are the chances your going to throw an elbow when its the best option? probably lower than a guy who trains with elbows

OK, tell me how do you train with elbows without cutting up each other?




EXAMPLE: OLYMPIC TKD PRACTITIONER. he trains under VERY unrealistic rules. you suggest he will excell at streetfighting? LOL.

Because he is at least doing full contact fighting, he will do much better than the "pretend, self-defense" guy who don't doesn't do full contact because he has to worry about killing his training partners.

[Knifefighter]

NOTE: I never said one word about advocating form practice over resisting opponents.

you thought that one up all on your own....


some people ASSUME you advocate things you never even said you did.....its annoying and at best proves some people dont think their word through carefully enough to know where someone actually stands then to go and place words and even training principles and values in their mouths.....

Of course I have to assume.

No one can ever answer the basic question of how they practice these "street" moves.

Are you going to answer the question so I don't have to assume?

[Knifefighter]

That is, do the techniques we train in! It is when people don't spar often or get quality instruction like this that they end up doing very poor kickboxing. Kickboxing is a whole discipline unto itself that has its own set of criteria. If you train in techniques for drills you should make them come out in your sparring and work on making them come out.

LOL @ getting quality instruction and then giving them a hard time for having to do kickboxing. If the technique worked in the first place, one wouldn't have to revert to something else. That would be like a BJJ coach berating his athletes for using wrestling in a BJJ match...

No wonder so many in CMA are so far behind the curve.

[Lucas]

Of course I have to assume.

No one can ever answer the basic question of how they practice these "street" moves.

Are you going to answer the question so I don't have to assume?

You must not have gotten what i said in my responses to you.

"street" moves. as you said yourself. Are best off being trained as they are by your more aggressive and realisitic sport programs.

I never said sport fighters have bad training programs. my analogy with street defense and OTKD should have gotten my point across that i was trying to make....it was a pretty basic analogy, easy to follow i thought.

you state yourself, the best way to prepare yourself is to do what some of these guys ARE doing. and then add what needs to be added and remove what needs to be removed.

some people think when you say "sport" you mean "MMA"....not so.

MMA is not the only sport out there. It is the most realistic sport.

so stop trying to think i am saying MMA is doing everything wrong. I never said that. All i am saying is that, at a base level, certain rules can be detremental.

let me repeat for thouroughness....

CERTAIN RULES CAN BE DETREMENTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OTKD IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

i startd in this thread talking about how sport rules can get in the way, used on basic example and then from there some people decided to think i am saying all sport training is wrong.

that is the assuming your doing that you dont need to.

i am being rather straight forward.

[Lucas]

What I would like to see actually would be a MMA gym dedicated solely to street defense.

of course you wont see this, as every MMA gym has people who want to compete.

which is great you need that.

but i know there are MMA guys out there that do train without sport in mind at all.

providing they get the same type of resistance from their training as the heavy sport guys do, THEY are probably recieving the most realistic training.

[lkfmdc]

What I would like to see actually would be a MMA gym dedicated solely to street defense.



two words

DOG BROTHERS

[Lucas]

two words

DOG BROTHERS

EXACTLY

OMFG SOMEONE UNDERSTOOD ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

watch out he sky might be falling any second.

[Knifefighter]

providing they get the same type of resistance from their training as the heavy sport guys do, THEY are probably recieving the most realistic training.

Looks like we are on the same page in that respect.

[Lucas]

I think im trying to say, not so eloquently, similarly the same kind of thing in regards to realism.

how many olympic tkd players would fare as well as a Sanshou, how many sanshou would fair as well as MMA, how many MMA would fair as well as a well trained soldier, say spec ops or navy seal? in a street encounter.

different mindsets and goals i guess

it seems to be a varying degree of rules

edit:

we all have to train with rules in place, to as you say keep from killing each other.

its the rules you choose to train under that will decide the outcome of your training

[Pork Chop]

interesting discussion.
i do kinda think the guy's right in some aspects.

but agree with lkfmdc and knifefighter, that if it's worth using, it's not going to look like a shaw brother's flick.

on the other hand, muay thai looks a lot different from American rules kickboxing, and even international leg kick- so saying they all look exactly the same is a little bit of a misnomer.

if you're a clf guy and you can't use gwa, sow, or charp to save your life; but instead relying on other techniques, then it's hard to say you're "fighting your style".

if you're a wing chun guy and you're doing that old tkd trick of the scooting with your chambered roundkick all over the place the whole time; then yeah- you're probably ditching your style.

on the other hand, if you're hung gar, but aren't wasting your time making pretty crane hands and posing, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not fighting your style.

in the end a real fighter's going to do what it takes to win.
He's not going to waste too much sleep about not using all 18 of his principles if he kicks the crud out of the other guy.
Though, I can understand the point of wanting to see the same principles & strategies discussed in the learning of the forms being consistent with the principles & strategies used in the ring.... and if they're not consistent then that really needs to be looked at.

[Hung gar]

I really would like to know the answer to this, because every time I ask it, the "self-defense for the street" guys never seem to answer it. How the heck to you guys train your deadly "street" techniques in a realistic manner?

Well you would actually have to go in the streets and fight something you Internet junkies don't know anything about. The video did not say any ting about mma at all so why are you insecure mma practitioner afraid of kung fu becoming stronger.

[RonH]

you've got to be f-in joking.... precisely the kind of fantasy land crap that makes people laugh at TCMA people.... dude, that's pathetic!

Then, I must assume that you don't think mental discipline isn't that big of a deal in martial arts training?


translation = NO, we can't fight with this stuff :rolleyes:

Bad form. It would benefit everyone if you refrain from such juvenile behavior in the future and stick to presenting a counterpoint. Not making fallacious logic errors, like mockery.

So, then your stance is that lessening excessive ego gratification has no effect on whether you wish it known that others think you know how to fight?


Dave, don't waste your time with this guy - I lost a few hours of my life I'll never get back "debating" with him to no avail about his tenuous grasp on reality (he has limitless amounts of Kool Aide on hand, appears to me):
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47322

If you truly feel that is all you got out of it, you have only yourself to blame for initiating the conversation.


oh, yeah, this is one of the fake chi healers isn't it? :rolleyes:

If you have any evidence I wasn't being truthful or that I had some underhanded motivation for saying what I did (even though I wasn't the one that started the dialogue between cjurakpt and I on that issue; where my initial post in the thread was in response to the member that made the opening post), it's only fair that you provide it to me and everyone else.

Also, it is inappropriate for you to take one thread and insert its contents into another thread, which is focusing on another issue. If there is something you wish to say to me about that topic, do it in that thread. But, given the childish replies you've provided so far on that issue, I won't respond to them, uless you can provide responses that are actually of substance.

[lkfmdc]

Ron H, the other "guy" is a 16 year old kid; ie he has some excuse for being ignorant and foolish

YOu have no excuse

Besides, with your fairy tale "chi healing" we've established you are not someone to be taken seriously

Go, run and play in the traffic, the adults are talking

[BlueTravesty]

interesting discussion.
i do kinda think the guy's right in some aspects.

but agree with lkfmdc and knifefighter, that if it's worth using, it's not going to look like a shaw brother's flick.

on the other hand, muay thai looks a lot different from American rules kickboxing, and even international leg kick- so saying they all look exactly the same is a little bit of a misnomer.

Good point. I think if Bagua was used in a combative-oriented manner, it would look slightly different than Boxing, but nothing like the forms used to practice individual elements of it (palm changes and circling.) Of course, it would use palms for striking, clinching and throwing, and said practitioner would need to cross-train. They wouldn't be walking a full circle though, or pressing their weight down on their legs. Even if said practitioner won a match, people who really like boxing would probably call it sloppy boxing.

Then again, I doubt classical Pankration/Pancrase looked exactly like MMA does today, even if you take the limited ruleset into account. The differences would be subtle, and overall, it would look like "regular ol'" fighting, but the differences would be there.

The most "natural" (neutral, maybe?) techniques are usually going to be slaps, haymakers, hammerfists clumsy takedowns, and then mounting and G&Ping or slamming your opponent's head into the ground (kinda like that emo fight video- I can easily believe those kids did not have much exposure to boxing or wrestling.) These techniques are really good if you're p!ssed off and on the offensive. Not so good if you're using them to defend against someone doing the same thing who's bigger/stronger/faster.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Bagua is pretty unique, especially in it's footwork. It would never look like boxing.

[golden arhat]

How am I clueless. The streets dont lie.

yes
and thats why i'm thinking u dont fight in them

otherwise i'm pretty sure u'd be dead

lol i look like a tiger

rarrrr

i look like a crane hold on while i flap a bit

:rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

I think im trying to say, not so eloquently, similarly the same kind of thing in regards to realism.

how many olympic tkd players would fare as well as a Sanshou, how many sanshou would fair as well as MMA, how many MMA would fair as well as a well trained soldier, say spec ops or navy seal? in a street encounter.

different mindsets and goals i guess

it seems to be a varying degree of rules

edit:

we all have to train with rules in place, to as you say keep from killing each other.

its the rules you choose to train under that will decide the outcome of your training

a navy seal isnt as good as an mma fighter simply because he is special forces

except with a gun

the idea that special ops troops are expert fighters is retarded

they are excellent SOLDIERS not fighters

how many of them use their hand to hand skills to win in a confrontation ?
answer
almost none

THEY HAVE GUNS !!!!

[fopah]

a navy seal isnt as good as an mma fighter simply because he is special forces

except with a gun

the idea that special ops troops are expert fighters is retarded

they are excellent SOLDIERS not fighters

how many of them use their hand to hand skills to win in a confrontation ?
answer
almost none

THEY HAVE GUNS !!!!

... ummm....

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to the "street lying".

The street does not lie, but it does not tell the whole story either.

The chances of meeting a trained fighter on the street of very minimal ( not zero, minimal), fact is almost anyone with some sort of practical MA training can beat someone with no MA training in a streetfight.

Steetfights are not a true test of MA skill and never have been, they are a test of survival skills.

Unless you fight a trained fighter in the street in a "bodybag" match, you are not testing yourself to the max.
I have had more fights than I care to admit in the dreaded "street", I can count how many of them were against a trained fighter ( someone that obviously knew what they were doing) on 2 hands.

Fact is, someone that trains in a sport enviroment with trained fighters, wither they compete or not, has a far better chance in a street fight than someone that doesn't and has a much better testing field than the occasional "fight" on the deadly street.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i was at this tourny and was one of the 1st ppl that this guy reffed for. it was a best of three rounds setup and my fight went 5 rounds before he decided to DQ me and my opponent for not looking "traditional" enough. there was a point where in between rounds i was told by another judge to strike with tiger claws but make sure i say the "Wah" sound when i do them. and to use crane beak techniques but make sure not to strike to the face and be sure to hit the side of the head.

first off crane beak techs on the side of the head would not do a whole heck of a lot in the real world. but whatever. 2nd saying anything in a fight with a mouth guard is f*cking retarded. 3rd, i was in the beginner division. i have never competed before. i think if he wants a shaw brothers fight he should be more demanding of his advanced competitors than his beginners. thats just my take on it.

the senior judges decided there couldn't be a double DQ on this basis and made us fight a sudden death round. so i went back to doing the continuous point sparring techs my old BSL school taught and i managed to win with a couple of nice hook kicks. the dude i fought was a pretty good competitor and if he is on this board i would love to talk to him about the fight. anyway, i won.

then i was handed a flier a little bit later by the dude in the youtube video for his tournament. there is a 1500 dollar 1st prize for fighting with what he deems "traditional" techniques. of course if that is the case it wont be challenged by ppl that fight in styles other than TCMA that might stand a chance of beating the guy he thinks is the best traditional fighter. his entire speech was a promotion for his tournament.

now i am all for the capitalism, but i dont think one should pioneer the "noble fight" to save tcma from itself in an attempt to get more ppl to come to a tourny. thats just my feeling on the matter. of course he might laugh at this post. laugh all the way to the bank after his tourny is over.

so go and help this dude make a buck.

[David Jamieson]

a navy seal isnt as good as an mma fighter simply because he is special forces

except with a gun

the idea that special ops troops are expert fighters is retarded

they are excellent SOLDIERS not fighters

how many of them use their hand to hand skills to win in a confrontation ?
answer
almost none

THEY HAVE GUNS !!!!

80% of seal training is all about being in water. Being harrassed in water, carrying out logitics in water and so on. they receive basic like every other soldier and have specialized knowledge in underwater demolitions and such(the other 20%). the H2H training is seperate and voluntary when it is beyond basic. For marksmen, tat is also a seperate badge they would acquire outside of seal training.

just sayin...

[lkfmdc]

i was at this tourny and was one of the 1st ppl that this guy reffed for. it was a best of three rounds setup and my fight went 5 rounds before he decided to DQ me and my opponent for not looking "traditional" enough. there was a point where in between rounds i was told by another judge to strike with tiger claws but make sure i say the "Wah" sound when i do them. and to use crane beak techniques but make sure not to strike to the face and be sure to hit the side of the head.

first off crane beak techs on the side of the head would not do a whole heck of a lot in the real world. but whatever. 2nd saying anything in a fight with a mouth guard is f*cking retarded. 3rd, i was in the beginner division. i have never competed before. i think if he wants a shaw brothers fight he should be more demanding of his advanced competitors than his beginners. thats just my take on it.

the senior judges decided there couldn't be a double DQ on this basis and made us fight a sudden death round. so i went back to doing the continuous point sparring techs my old BSL school taught and i managed to win with a couple of nice hook kicks. the dude i fought was a pretty good competitor and if he is on this board i would love to talk to him about the fight. anyway, i won.

then i was handed a flier a little bit later by the dude in the youtube video for his tournament. there is a 1500 dollar 1st prize for fighting with what he deems "traditional" techniques. of course if that is the case it wont be challenged by ppl that fight in styles other than TCMA that might stand a chance of beating the guy he thinks is the best traditional fighter. his entire speech was a promotion for his tournament.

now i am all for the capitalism, but i dont think one should pioneer the "noble fight" to save tcma from itself in an attempt to get more ppl to come to a tourny. thats just my feeling on the matter. of course he might laugh at this post. laugh all the way to the bank after his tourny is over.

so go and help this dude make a buck.

LMFAO @ this story,

[Pork Chop]

Good point. I think if Bagua was used in a combative-oriented manner, it would look slightly different than Boxing, but nothing like the forms used to practice individual elements of it (palm changes and circling.)

I think it would look like bas rutten era pancrase with some good takedowns.
The speed might be a little different, along with the footwork.
Hsing Yi's the one that would look a lot like boxing, used to pull off beng quan in boxing practice all the time.


Even if said practitioner won a match, people who really like boxing would probably call it sloppy boxing.

most stuff that's really traditional that is actually getting used, gets called sloppy boxing or "flailing", but if that's the way you train, then it really shouldn't be accused of being "flailing". It's catch 22, either it doesn't look different enough or it does and it gets slammed for not being good boxing.


Then again, I doubt classical Pankration/Pancrase looked exactly like MMA does today, even if you take the limited ruleset into account. The differences would be subtle, and overall, it would look like "regular ol'" fighting, but the differences would be there.

Pankrase loved the hammer fist, especially with the lead hand.
Unlike what's been represented on this board lately, I don't think hammerfists and backfists are useless.
Muhammed Ali would throw palms and backfists with his highly touted jabs, but technically they were illegal- because those parts of the glove weren't as padded.
Sports photographers back in the day had a heck of a time finding Ali pics to run in magazines because a lot of his stuff was "dirty".

[Pork Chop]

LMFAO @ this story,

Yeah there's definitely 2 different things going on here.

Lots of schools train point/continuous sparring as something separate from their style; with strategies and methodologies more akin to sport karate or watered down kickboxing.

On the other hand you've got these movie nerds who want to see people straight out of a Shaw Brothers flick, complete with poses after every strike.
This dude definitely sounds like the later.

A few years back (sometime between 1998 and 2001) there was a clf guy at Taiji Legacy who was really effective with gwa-sow-charp. He won at least one sanshou match. Guys like that are what i'd like to see more of; not like guys making hissing sounds when they fight with snake strikes.

There should definitely be more dudes in mma too. The small gloves contributing to hand speed, making defense harder, and putting more importance on fast hands coming at different angles. Just gotta crosstrain in the ground and get some smokers started with mma schools.

[MasterKiller]

Christophe is actually a good guy.

He was NP's old teacher.

He's got skills and fought full contact kickboxing in Korea in the early 90s. I dunno where this came from, though.

[lkfmdc]

Christophe is actually a good guy.

He was NP's old teacher.

He's got skills and fought full contact kickboxing in Korea in the early 90s. I dunno where this came from, though.

Perhaps the positive you posted is true, yet his words as captured on youtube are there for the world to see, and they don't come off too well

[WinterPalm]

LOL @ getting quality instruction and then giving them a hard time for having to do kickboxing. If the technique worked in the first place, one wouldn't have to revert to something else. That would be like a BJJ coach berating his athletes for using wrestling in a BJJ match...

No wonder so many in CMA are so far behind the curve.

You completely misread what I said. I was saying that people will start to just move around like they've seen in movies and throw attacks very simply. I said they start to do bad kickboxing...nothing about reverting. You cannot revert to something you have never done.

I'm sure there are times in BJJ class when you are supposed to do one thing but keep on wanting to do something else despite the purpose of working on and expanding technique. It's this way in every martial art. If you did muai Thai and didn't throw and leg technques, your teacher would get you to start using the kicks more. It is that simple.

I often think you have a set arrangement of responses to what you think people are saying and don't even bother to try and read or understand what the person is saying!

[Lucas]

I often think you have a set arrangement of responses to what you think people are saying and don't even bother to try and read or understand what the person is saying!

lol.........sorry thats just funny.

[southernkf]

the problem is the majority of chinese styles

dont work


mma and forward thinking beats all the end

u should all accept that and take what u can from wherever u can

Intesting topic. I think the guy is onto something.


As for this comment, I think it is somewhat true. But I gotta ask, what is mma? MMA to me seems not to be any one thing but rather the usage of what works. What was MMA a few years ago isn't the MMA of today, and probably wont be the mma of tomorrow. Like MMA, we need to figure out what works and what doesn't in a realistic environment. It isn't chinese styles don't work, but I think few people that have tested them havn't understood how to apply them. And I feel many others that haven't tested their style don't understand.

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA is a ruleset not a style, at best it is a hybrid system that incorporates techniques from different systems.

One can call it the JKD of the 21st century :D

[MasterKiller]

Perhaps the positive you posted is true, yet his words as captured on youtube are there for the world to see, and they don't come off too well

Oh yeah, I agree, which is why it's so odd considering he fought in Korea.

[lkfmdc]

MMA is a ruleset not a style, at best it is a hybrid system that incorporates techniques from different systems.

One can call it the JKD of the 21st century :D

I'd disagree, while there is definitely a ruleset most clearly identified with MMA (ie UFC et al), most MMA gyms also do boxing, BJJ, wrestling, submission, Muay Thai, etc

IE MMA is a MIND SET

MMA is about training alive, testing what you do, not being tied to "tradition", not being afraid to ask why and why not

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd disagree, while there is definitely a ruleset most clearly identified with MMA (ie UFC et al), most MMA gyms also do boxing, BJJ, wrestling, submission, Muay Thai, etc

IE MMA is a MIND SET

MMA is about training alive, testing what you do, not being tied to "tradition", not being afraid to ask why and why not

How do you disagree and then agree with me...
Your 'definition" was textbook JKD !!
:D

[lkfmdc]

How do you disagree and then agree with me...
Your 'definition" was textbook JKD !!
:D

No, because most JKD people (until recently) were opposed to any sort of "sport". Vunak wrote an article "why the elite don't compete". All the talk about eye jabs and groind kicks, etc....

[David Jamieson]

I'd disagree, while there is definitely a ruleset most clearly identified with MMA (ie UFC et al), most MMA gyms also do boxing, BJJ, wrestling, submission, Muay Thai, etc

IE MMA is a MIND SET

MMA is about training alive, testing what you do, not being tied to "tradition", not being afraid to ask why and why not

um, i disagree.

mma is defined simply as mixed martial arts. that's all it is.
It mixes this with that and that with this in an attempt to round out a fighter in all ranges to some degree.

mindset and fighters intention can be applied to any martial art.

many people practice martial art because it's cool to them and not for the sportive combative aspect.

there are people who practice all their lives and not once ever get in a fight.
This doesn't make their practice irrelevant, it was something they enjoyed doing while they tripped around the sun.

frankly, nothing has meaning until it's given meaning, and even then, it still doesn't have meaning except to those people who give it meaning. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, because most JKD people (until recently) were opposed to any sort of "sport". Vunak wrote an article "why the elite don't compete". All the talk about eye jabs and groind kicks, etc....

hate to quote you but you said:


MMA is about training alive, testing what you do, not being tied to "tradition", not being afraid to ask why and why not

Replace MMA with JKD...
See what I mean.


And I was just kidding about the "JKD of the 21st century: thing BTW.

[lkfmdc]

And I was just kidding about the "JKD of the 21st century: thing BTW.

yeah, well clearly, because in reality it is the "Shaolin Do of the 21st century" :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, well clearly, because in reality it is the "Shaolin Do of the 21st century" :D

Now that is just cruel.

[lkfmdc]

Now that is just cruel.

have you noticed the cult members going into "stage one" of the intervention process :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

The shaolin do members or the JKD memebers ??

[Lucas]

The shaolin do members or the JKD memebers ??

is there a difference? :eek:

[TenTigers]

ok, back up a bit...Brucesteveroy-what,who,where was that tournament you spoke of? I have been in MA for quite a long time,competed, judged,yadda-yadda, but NEVER in my life have I ever heard of something that freakin weird,lame,not to mention embarrassing. I need to know more about this-just so I don't bring any students there.

hey, if I combine,Teakwondo, Kuk Sool Wan, and Hwarangdo, with Tang Soo Do, is that MMA?
What about Shaolin Kempo,Shaolin-do, and XMA?
If I mix chi balls, with matzoh balls....no, wait...

[msg]

a navy seal isnt as good as an mma fighter simply because he is special forces

except with a gun

the idea that special ops troops are expert fighters is retarded

they are excellent SOLDIERS not fighters

how many of them use their hand to hand skills to win in a confrontation ?
answer
almost none

THEY HAVE GUNS !!!!

you are pretty clueless on a lot of things .how would you know by tv .and iam sure you realy dont know anything about any real street fight your still wet behind the ears

[Nebuchadnezzar]

a navy seal isnt as good as an mma fighter simply because he is special forces

except with a gun

the idea that special ops troops are expert fighters is retarded

they are excellent SOLDIERS not fighters

how many of them use their hand to hand skills to win in a confrontation ?
answer
almost none

THEY HAVE GUNS !!!!

I know a few combat vets from Vietnam who teach the new guys who would say different. Your age or lack thereof is showing.

[Lucas]

A lot of the H2H training Spec. Ops guys and Seals, Greens etc...do is done on their own time.

You have to remember. These guys are PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS. not sport fighters, not hobbiests....

I've met a couple of ex military guys that may not have a lot of fancy techs or ring experience, but they can mess you up, fast, and effecient.

why? they trained 100% of the time with the mindset this **** may be all that stands between them and death.

You really have to remember that professional soldiers ( not some buck who joined the marines to learn some crap skills ) im talking guys who make a full career out of this.

guys who have seen active combat, who have trained to deal with active combat. regardless of whether they used their h2h skills in deadly combat is another story.

your highly trained professional soldier...i give the upperhand in a street encounter over a highly trained sport fighter any day of the week.

mind you considering both are HIGHLY trained. sport fighters must take it upon themselves to find a coach for fighting just like a soldier does.

difference being. mindset.

thats a HUGE difference in the game of life.

[Pork Chop]

Some of my best friends are Army Combatives instructors.
Army Combatives guys compete in Naga and MMA pretty regularly.

[Lucas]

Some of my best friends are Army Combatives instructors.
Army Combatives guys compete in Naga and MMA pretty regularly.

what better arena to test their live skills in?

i would expect no less from americas best.

[cjurakpt]

i was at this tourny and was one of the 1st ppl that this guy reffed for. it was a best of three rounds setup and my fight went 5 rounds before he decided to DQ me and my opponent for not looking "traditional" enough. there was a point where in between rounds i was told by another judge to strike with tiger claws but make sure i say the "Wah" sound when i do them. and to use crane beak techniques but make sure not to strike to the face and be sure to hit the side of the head.

first off crane beak techs on the side of the head would not do a whole heck of a lot in the real world. but whatever. 2nd saying anything in a fight with a mouth guard is f*cking retarded. 3rd, i was in the beginner division. i have never competed before. i think if he wants a shaw brothers fight he should be more demanding of his advanced competitors than his beginners. thats just my take on it.

the senior judges decided there couldn't be a double DQ on this basis and made us fight a sudden death round. so i went back to doing the continuous point sparring techs my old BSL school taught and i managed to win with a couple of nice hook kicks. the dude i fought was a pretty good competitor and if he is on this board i would love to talk to him about the fight. anyway, i won.

then i was handed a flier a little bit later by the dude in the youtube video for his tournament. there is a 1500 dollar 1st prize for fighting with what he deems "traditional" techniques. of course if that is the case it wont be challenged by ppl that fight in styles other than TCMA that might stand a chance of beating the guy he thinks is the best traditional fighter. his entire speech was a promotion for his tournament.

now i am all for the capitalism, but i dont think one should pioneer the "noble fight" to save tcma from itself in an attempt to get more ppl to come to a tourny. thats just my feeling on the matter. of course he might laugh at this post. laugh all the way to the bank after his tourny is over.

so go and help this dude make a buck.

this is horrible - it's as bad as the Kah-rah-tey guys who used to pontificate at open style tournies; it's like, they get a captive audience and a public venue; this guy should be taken out back and have his lips sewed together - the audacity to lecture to people, who have absolutely no obligation to share his opinion whatsoever, and then to MAKE UP RULES that suit his personal agenda - again, ONLY in TCMA do you have this crap, and it's a major reason why it will always be amateur hour, penny-ante cr@p; you need to remove people with personal agendas, and get real

[RonH]

Ron H, the other "guy" is a 16 year old kid; ie he has some excuse for being ignorant and foolish

YOu have no excuse

Given that I am not him, it's a fallacy to bring up someone else's arguments instead of providing a counterpoint to what I've said myself.


Besides, with your fairy tale "chi healing" we've established you are not someone to be taken seriously

The only thing that's been established is your inability to answer a simple request, along with your desire to obfuscate the issue. I'm detecting an excessive amount of ego. I would suggest meditation and buddhism to rid yourself of that.


Go, run and play in the traffic, the adults are talking

Your continued use of bad forms - fallacious logic: mockery - doesn't make your stance any more valid or mine any less.

[lkfmdc]

Listen Ron, you do sound deluded and foolish and childish and all, and usually I love smacking down guys like you on the forum, but, I hate to do this, really, but compared to the shaolin DOH idiots, you are not that entertaining.... I mean Chi fairy and meditation nonsense and chi blast healing is usually a real hoot, but we're talking about an entire CULT here... the possibilities are endless

And like I said, you have the emotional stability of a 16 year old....

[David Jamieson]

a man who can kill you with a pantload of his own excrement gets my respect.

so nuff said about soldiers

[RonH]

Listen Ron, you do sound deluded and foolish and childish and all

Yet, I have not gone down to the level of mockery which you do with every post.


and usually I love smacking down guys like you on the forum, but, I hate to do this, really

If it really was something you hate doing, you wouldn't be loving it. What you claim as hating such behavior is probably your attempt to be mature/civil/whatever. I doubt you hate such behavior. Otherwise, you wouldn't do it, if you really hated it.


but compared to the shaolin DOH idiots, you are not that entertaining.... I mean Chi fairy and meditation nonsense and chi blast healing is usually a real hoot, but we're talking about an entire CULT here... the possibilities are endless

And like I said, you have the emotional stability of a 16 year old....

The irony of that statement is not surprising. What is that I've done? I've requested evidence (and to a lesser extent, the actual argument) that says or suggests I lied about what I said in the other thread. I've pointed out the faulty logic you have been using. I have asked for clarification on your stance on certain issues. Without mocking anyone, I gave a measured and polite response to the last question in one post, based on my experience with CMA, internal arts and specifically taijiquan.

What have you done? You've quoted large sections of text and mocked it without any explanation why, such as your use of 'As if that little tid-bit wasn't precious enough in and of itself......' and 'yeah, I'm performing surgery with a rusty butter knife in the backyard tomorrow, please feel free to drop by [rolleyes]'. Instead of actually making an effort to answer my requests, you call me 'foolish' and continue to make assertions that you haven't backed up, acting as if it is a given. You mock me by saying I should go run in traffic, while the 'adults' talk. And lastly, you say I have the emotional stability of a 16 year old.

What is typical teen behavior is making fun of someone you preceive as weak, regardless of how that weakness is based, and to ignore the statements that say to provide evidence. You haven't even demonstrated common courtesy, yet I'm the one that's supposed to have emotional isntability. You can't even go one reply to me without mocking me. If you next post actually is free of mockery, I'm not gonna believe it's a property you're capable of without someone prompting you.

[lkfmdc]

Ron, just so you know, maybe will save you some time, I am IGNORING YOU.

[NJM]

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[WinterPalm]

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Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |________//
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |xxxxxx
Xxxxxx | O_o | Xxxxx ||xxxxx
Xxxxx \ _ / Xxxxx \xxx
Xxxx| : |xxxx /\ \ _
Xxx\_/xxx |\__\ _____/ \ \ ) |_|
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I agree.

But nonetheless...

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Xxxx| 0 0 | Xxxxx \xxxxxxx
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Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |________//
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |xxxxxx
Xxxxxx | O_o | Xxxxx ||xxxxx
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I think you are way off, but to each their own.

[lkfmdc]

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Xxxx| 0 0 | Xxxxx \xxxxxxx
Xxxxx | | Xxxxx \xxxxxxx
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |________//
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |xxxxxx
Xxxxxx | O_o | Xxxxx ||xxxxx
Xxxxx \ _ / Xxxxx \xxx
Xxxx| : |xxxx /\ \ _
Xxx\_/xxx |\__\ _____/ \ \ ) |_|
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ok, I'll say it, WTF???????

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok, I'll say it, WTF???????

You obviously don't understand Jamaican Binary Code.
...Mon.

[RonH]

Xxxxxxxx
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/*/ Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\*\xxxxxxxxxxxx
|**\ X _____xxxxxxxxx/**|xxxxxxxxxxxxx
|***\ X_/ \_ /***|___xxxxxxxxxxxx
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\**** / \ *****/ Xxxxx \\xxxxxxx
Xxxx| 0 0 | Xxxxx \xxxxxxx
Xxxxx | | Xxxxx \xxxxxxx
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |________//
Xxxxxx \ / Xxxxx |xxxxxx
Xxxxxx | O_o | Xxxxx ||xxxxx
Xxxxx \ _ / Xxxxx \xxx
Xxxx| : |xxxx /\ \ _
Xxx\_/xxx |\__\ _____/ \ \ ) |_|
Xxxxxx< | | | Xx| |x\_ | _
Xxx/ |x <_> Xxxx/ | | | |_|
|___|xxxx| |xxxxxxxxx|___| | \
Xxxxxx/ \xxxxxxxx |____|
|_____|xx

I like it.

[NJM]

It's a bull, but this aging forum wasn't able to correctly display it :(

[RonH]

With the way it came up, it made me think of a game character from an electronic system from the early 80's.

[BlueTravesty]

I thought it was a screen capture of a REALLY crowded level from Rogue or Nethack. That's how much of a nerd I am.