Don Hamby

[Hung gar]

Scoll down for Don Hamby interview.http://player.narrowstep.tv/skins/0018/nsp.aspx?player=MACRADIO

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the jest of whathe is saying ( can't view it a work) ?

I have Hamby's Iron Wire DVD and its the closest to the real thing I have seen.

[Hung gar]

They also have a Gene Ching interview

[sanjuro_ronin]

They also have a Gene Ching interview

Well, so much for quality....:D

[David Jamieson]

wing lams iron wire is easily as good as Hamby's.

I would venture to say I like Lams better, but that's just me.

[lkfmdc]

They also have a Gene Ching interview

so I guess they just interview anyone then! :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

wing lams iron wire is easily as good as Hamby's.

I would venture to say I like Lams better, but that's just me.

Not what I heard, but to each their own, they both have glaring "misses" which I assume are on purpose for the public.

[David Jamieson]

I find WL's closer to the LSW publication.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find WL's closer to the LSW publication.

Yes, but that doesn't make it more "correct".
I have seen 6 different versions of the Iron Wire and they all miss something or another, BUT taken as a whole, it is there, you just got look like crazy and be open to it, or be a closed door Hung gar disciple :D

[southernkf]

wing lams iron wire is easily as good as Hamby's.

I would venture to say I like Lams better, but that's just me.

Hi David,

Why? What makes you like one over the other? I have seen several net versions. Some I like and some I don't. I don't recall Hamby's or Lam's off the top of my head so I am not sure how to critique them. Them again, I don't have the skills to critique them. :)

[southernkf]

I find WL's closer to the LSW publication.

Hi David,

I am not a big fan of exactness in forms anymore. I feel the forms have a purpose but it doesn't REALLY matter if something is slightly different. IE, you can restring the forms together in a different order and change the number of times you do something, but you havn't changed the WAY a form is done. Atleast that is how I currently look at it.

[banditshaw]

Yes, but that doesn't make it more "correct".
I have seen 6 different versions of the Iron Wire and they all miss something or another, BUT taken as a whole, it is there, you just got look like crazy and be open to it, or be a closed door Hung gar disciple :D


I like those mentioned. I like this one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t2JJH-KSgo

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like those mentioned. I like this one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t2JJH-KSgo

That is a very shortened versions with some changes and add-ons....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi David,

I am not a big fan of exactness in forms anymore. I feel the forms have a purpose but it doesn't REALLY matter if something is slightly different. IE, you can restring the forms together in a different order and change the number of times you do something, but you havn't changed the WAY a form is done. Atleast that is how I currently look at it.

And that is very crucial, though same will argue that if you leave out certain things that you won't get the full "effect".
Thing is, I am sure it has been changed so much as it is...

[banditshaw]

That is a very shortened versions with some changes and add-ons....

You are perceptive. I like the intent and especially the almost improvised nature of keeping it within the framework.
It is a demo after all.

[southernkf]

And keep in mind TSK (iron wire) is a LONG form. Many people only show a portion of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are perceptive. I like the intent and especially the almost improvised nature of keeping it within the framework.
It is a demo after all.

I have issues with that stuff, I don't believe in altering anything for the public, better not to show it at all.

[banditshaw]

Check out this interesting interpretation


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

[sanjuro_ronin]

And keep in mind TSK (iron wire) is a LONG form. Many people only show a portion of it.

I would agree, but that doesn't explain why they do it "incorrectly" at times, or at least different.
Shorten it, sure, who wants to see 15 min of dynamic tension anyways.

[banditshaw]

I have issues with that stuff, I don't believe in altering anything for the public, better not to show it at all.

I can understand that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Check out this interesting interpretation


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

One of the better ones, no doubt, to say the least.

[Pork Chop]

Just a little language lesson.

Sifu:
師傅 or 師父
師 - teacher, master, mentor, reverend
傅 - tutor, instructor
父 - father

Sensei:
先生
先 - previous, former, front, ahead, the future, prior, preceding
生 - life, living, raw, unprocessed, naive, green, inexperienced

Sifu tends to be used for stuff where knowledge is exchanged: teachers, cooks, drivers, elders in a trade or art, and has a distinct "parent tutor" connotation.

Sensei is used for teachers, professors, lawyers, doctors, politicians, and any professional. It's closer to the meaning of "mister".

Dude's been studying under Buck Sam Kong as long as I've been alive.

Don't really like his gung gee applications; but he's basically breaking down a pre-existing 2-man form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2jknDWEyEU

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hamby knows his stuff, no doubt and Hung gar suits him to a T.

[banditshaw]

Hamby knows his stuff, no doubt and Hung gar suits him to a T.

Makes me wish I could see the footage of the full contact tourneys in Hawaii against the Muay Thai guys back in 1974.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Makes me wish I could see the footage of the full contact tourneys in Hawaii against the Muay Thai guys back in 1974.

Heck, if you can find a MT fighter in the 70's Hamby;'s size, I wanna see that too !!
:D

[mok]

Hamby knows his stuff, no doubt and Hung gar suits him to a T.

LOL - and I just thought he was so ripped the sleeves kindof tore-off on their own, Lou Ferigno-style. :D

Quite a few sifu's sure have a fetish with those bracers though... ;) not sure that's healthy and all. :cool:

[banditshaw]

Heck, if you can find a MT fighter in the 70's Hamby;'s size, I wanna see that too !!
:D

LOL. Yeah that's for sure.

[David Jamieson]

Hi David,

Why? What makes you like one over the other? I have seen several net versions. Some I like and some I don't. I don't recall Hamby's or Lam's off the top of my head so I am not sure how to critique them. Them again, I don't have the skills to critique them. :)

I have a preference for lams because the flavour is closer to how I understand it to be in regards to the isotonic/isometric aspects.

i find the version that I saw of hamby's while he was younger, didn't have the tone or depth that wl had.

If I looked again, I might hold a different view.

I like YC Wong's hung gar too. Always admired it.
Kong's is good too and from what I undrestand he is Hamby's sifu, so there you go.

It's all good. the Hong Kong one looks good.

this is a good set to maintain tone into middle and autumn years.
Probably one of the best principled sets of "hard qigong" available in the southern arts from Shaolin.

again, this is just my opinion and I'm not indicating anyone is better or best or anything like that. Just that sometimes i prefer this dumpling over that. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know that Springer is much maligned as of late, but I hear his Iron Wire is top notch too, a couple that have seen it have nothing but good things to say about it.

[GeneChing]

Wow - that's old. Simone interviewed at the MAC booth at a cable TV convention. It was like a half hour interview and I'm sure I said something intelligent during that period, but it sure doesn't come out in that little sound byte. It was fun tho.

[southernkf]

I have a preference for lams because the flavour is closer to how I understand it to be in regards to the isotonic/isometric aspects.
....
again, this is just my opinion and I'm not indicating anyone is better or best or anything like that. Just that sometimes i prefer this dumpling over that. :)

Cool. Just asking why. People sometimes say this or that is better. I always like to know why.

[southernkf]

One of the better ones, no doubt, to say the least.

And I'll ask the same question I asked eariler. Why?

[PM]

talking about so called Lam Saiwing's book on "iron thread set" (tit sin kyun), i would like to add couple of notes:

- the book was not written by Lam Saiwing, but his student Jyu Yujaai

- the sequence of pics is mixed up (same goes for "tiger and crane" [fu hok seung yin kyun]). funny thing is that some people follow the sequence of the book, like the first section. how about the opening sequence of "taming of the tiger in gung pattern" (same section)?

- original photos are much better than the drawings - see some of them at http://www.lghk.org/en/gallery/lsw.htm

- the sounds are definitelly different in the real set than in the book (eg.: three "dik" sounds in ding kiu is really funny thing; even funnier is doing the soungs in Mandarin, like "wu" instead of "ng", "xi" instead of "hei", "hua" instead of "wa" etc.)

- of all the 3 books by Jyu Yujaai i found this one almost uselles, except the introduction and foreword.

anyway, people will keep repeating same bul****s again and again (books were written by LSW, written in 1917, tey are Bible of Hung Kyun etc.). interesting, but that is it, nothing else.

[David Jamieson]

talking about so called Lam Saiwing's book on "iron thread set" (tit sin kyun), i would like to add couple of notes:

- the book was not written by Lam Saiwing, but his student Jyu Yujaai

- the sequence of pics is mixed up (same goes for "tiger and crane" [fu hok seung yin kyun]). funny thing is that some people follow the sequence of the book, like the first section. how about the opening sequence of "taming of the tiger in gung pattern" (same section)?

- original photos are much better than the drawings - see some of them at http://www.lghk.org/en/gallery/lsw.htm

- the sounds are definitelly different in the real set than in the book (eg.: three "dik" sounds in ding kiu is really funny thing; even funnier is doing the soungs in Mandarin, like "wu" instead of "ng", "xi" instead of "hei", "hua" instead of "wa" etc.)

- of all the 3 books by Jyu Yujaai i found this one almost uselles, except the introduction and foreword.

anyway, people will keep repeating same bul****s again and again (books were written by LSW, written in 1917, tey are Bible of Hung Kyun etc.). interesting, but that is it, nothing else.

I think you are being a bit harsh. Many of us understand what's up with the books and the supplementary manual as well. It's no big thing. Kungfu isn't learned from books, they serve as reference mostly to those things which are already known. I don't think you're 100% on the sequence either. I agree that start to finish, the sequence is different, but the segments are logical. It is the principles at play that have the most importance anyway seeing as the set is different from sifu to sifu in both flavour and sequence.

the sounds in mandarin? that's the first time I heard that. Interesting, they wouldn't have the same ********y qualities if altered too far. The purpose of the sounds is to measure breath and to regulate the vibration within. I don't think it would be the same if you did literal translations of them.

[David Jamieson]

Gene -

please have v i b r a t o r removed from the word list!

that looks goofy!

[TenTigers]

the cantonese words are still only approximations of the sounds, so they are more or less an equivelent. But the words are pronounced completely different in Manderin. Look at white-Bai in Mand. Bak in Cant. simply saying the words creates completely different effects in breathing. This is the problem when you try to convey in black and white something that honestly can only be taught through direct transmission, from Sifu to Todai.

[southernkf]

the cantonese words are still only approximations of the sounds, so they are more or less an equivelent. But the words are pronounced completely different in Manderin. Look at white-Bai in Mand. Bak in Cant. simply saying the words creates completely different effects in breathing. This is the problem when you try to convey in black and white something that honestly can only be taught through direct transmission, from Sifu to Todai.

Has anyone compared the sounds and motions of other lineages of Tiet Sin Kuen? I believe there still exists other lineages of Tit Kiu Sam. It would be interesting as we know, forms change over time. Although I don't have the wealth of knowledge many of you do, I have not seen to lineages that perform any styles forms identical. So if we are talking about books and sounds, I wonder how, if they have, over time. Or are the essentials unchanged?

Then I suppose that begs the question what is the important elements of Tiet Sin Kuen?

[David Jamieson]

Has anyone compared the sounds and motions of other lineages of Tiet Sin Kuen? I believe there still exists other lineages of Tit Kiu Sam. It would be interesting as we know, forms change over time. Although I don't have the wealth of knowledge many of you do, I have not seen to lineages that perform any styles forms identical. So if we are talking about books and sounds, I wonder how, if they have, over time. Or are the essentials unchanged?

Then I suppose that begs the question what is the important elements of Tiet Sin Kuen?


I learned some black tiger before that had a set called gong lik kuen.

the set itself when compared to hung kuen is a mix of gung gee and tid sen together and the focus is mostly on the dynamic tension. There is only the use of the Tiger (wa) sound in it at near the middle of the set, it's very long and arduous and all in all comparable to tid sen in it's focus and result.

I haven't a clue about the history of this black tiger set and only offer it as a comparison to the Hung Kuen Tid Sen set not a counterpart.

[TenTigers]

It is actually difficult to say which sounds are most correct, as the actual sounds have evolved over centuries from their original forms. The original form, which was from a defensive v i b r a t o r y y technique once used by fierce warriors, who were considered "Keepers of the Sacred Word". Perhaps you have seen reference to this in Frank Herbert's "Dune," as Herbert drew from many historical legends and writings to lay the groundwork for his epic tale.
This legend has taken many forms, and has crept into TCMA history,particularly in Tibetan White Crane, or Hop-Ga-Knight's Family system. Leung Guan (Tiet Kiu-Sam) was said to have learned the techniques, which formed the basis for his "Rock Body Fist," a series of exercises,which later was systemized into Tiet Sien Kuen.
Here is a link showing what might be the original sounds, as well as one of the later versions, where the sounds were actually changed by the very knights themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQfGd3G6dg&NR=1

[PM]

I think you are being a bit harsh. Many of us understand what's up with the books and the supplementary manual as well. It's no big thing. Kungfu isn't learned from books, they serve as reference mostly to those things which are already known. I don't think you're 100% on the sequence either. I agree that start to finish, the sequence is different, but the segments are logical. It is the principles at play that have the most importance anyway seeing as the set is different from sifu to sifu in both flavour and sequence.

the sounds in mandarin? that's the first time I heard that. Interesting, they wouldn't have the same ********y qualities if altered too far. The purpose of the sounds is to measure breath and to regulate the vibration within. I don't think it would be the same if you did literal translations of them.

what i meant: the so called LSW's book are in NO WAY criterion whose Hung Kyun is more traditional, more correct etc. (maby that is not what you meant when you wrote "I find WL's closer to the LSW publication"). i have seen people to adjust what they have learned to the pics/sequence in the books, i find this ridiculous. even worse is to learn it from the book.

anyway, so many people talk about tit sin kyun, but my impression is that most of them have never learned it, or have learned it form a bad video, or have learned it and do not practice it regularly.

just my 2 cents

not to be off-topic: i saw part of Don Hamby sifu's sap ying kyun/tit sin kyun and i liked it.

all the best

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I'll ask the same question I asked eariler. Why?

Hamby's is very complete, though he seems to advocate tension on the extension only, but that could be for the public only, his DVD shows two angles, not great, but not bad either.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the sound thing is, well to be blunt, a load of crap.

I can understand how TONE MAY have some minor influence, but pronunciation ?

Very far fetched, I mean if octive ranges can effect internal organs, one would have to be a world class opera singer to do that.

[TenTigers]

Not so far fetched as you might assume:
if you place your hands, palms down on your chest, in the middle-one about heart level, the other at solar plexus level, and say,"Hmmmmmmmmmm" going from a high note, all the way to a low note (occilation, not volume) you will actually feel it vibrate from top to bottom on the inside. Higher notes vibrate higher up in the chest, lower notes vibrate down. Working like positive boyancy, you can see how certain sounds will affect power generation as well. This is why using sounds, Hoi-sang, Hei-Hop/Ki-ai,etc are not simply random utterances of noise, but very specific.
Release is crucial when using sounds. Tightening up at the throat and uttering, "Ite!" causes energy to lock up there, and doing this while trying to release energy in a rooted, heavy strike, is not only counterproductive, it's dangerous. (Hite, used properly during quick, lighter moves, or kicks, or jumps is done differently and actually supports these motions)
Tiet Sien Kuen, when performed properly, is more about releasing tension in the body, rather than developing tension. People doing TSK with huge amounts of tension, while looking impressive to the layman, is actually incorrect. Regulating and focusing tension, in different parts of the body,even to the point of separating the limbs into segments, as well as the proper release of tension, is the goal. Trying to accomplish this, without properly releasing tension is why they say it affects the internal organs, and why specific sounds are used at certain times. Tone,volume, modualation all come into play and timing is crucial. Locking the body without proper release is dangerous,abrupt tensing while moving puts tremendous strain on the body. Twisting, turning,rising,falling,using various degrees of tension, without release is like taking a piece of raw liver, wrapping it inside a towel and wringing it out. The internal organs are softy tissue, the muscles and body twist and tighten. Incorrect practice can,will, and has caused irrepairable damage.
That is simply the breathing and sounds aspect. Segmenting power, generationg power, forming the proper alignment/structure to best achieve this, is another story entirely. Closing off the body and points is another method taught (by some.) Application of the movements-and I am not speaking of the twelve bridges, is yet another aspect.
This is why Tiet Sien Kuen is considered the "Jewel Of Hung Kuen."

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can see what you are saying, and agree to an extent.
The issue I have is pronunciation.
I don't see how the actual pronunciation matter here, I mean, I assume the original Iron Wire was in Cantonese, due to location, how does it change when done in Mandarin or "Cantonese with an english accent" ?

I can see the difference in vibration when relaxed, yes, not so much when releasing tension.
Yes sounds effect our perception and mood, thus our organs ( or is it vice-versa?), I mean, to hear the growl of a jungle cat, like a Tiger, gets certain things going within us.
But, then a "mimic" would get the benefits of the IW better than a Mute ??

And I don't think anyone mentioned holding tension, I assume most know that tension work is about the release of it, not the holding of it, though there are some types of training in which holding tension is used ( a bird of a different feather).

[TenTigers]

I think using the cantonese pronounciation is a misunderstanding. The teachers spoke cantonese, so to best duplicate the tones, they simply used the equivilent words (sounds) in their language and writing. We use english. We say,"Wah," and write, w,a,h. Cantonese speaking people write the same sound using hanji. If the hanji is pronounced differently in manderin, then a different hanji should be used. It's not about language, it's about the sound. Too many people are simply educated beyond their intelligence. The more they write about it and argue, the more they show their lack of experience.
I think this shows what a fukin snob I am.:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think using the cantonese pronounciation is a misunderstanding. The teachers spoke cantonese, so to best duplicate the tones, they simply used the equivilent words (sounds) in their language and writing. We use english. We say,"Wah," and write, w,a,h. Cantonese speaking people write the same sound using hanji. If the hanji is pronounced differently in manderin, then a different hanji should be used. It's not about language, it's about the sound. Too many people are simply educated beyond their intelligence. The more they write about it and argue, the more they show their lack of experience.
I think this shows what a fukin snob I am.:p

"educated beyond their intelligence"...

Interesting way to put it, you snob :D

[southernkf]

I think the sound thing is, well to be blunt, a load of crap.

I can understand how TONE MAY have some minor influence, but pronunciation ?

Very far fetched, I mean if octave ranges can effect internal organs, one would have to be a world class opera singer to do that.

To confirm some of what PM said, I haven't learned TSK. I may be talking out of line. However, I would be a little less critical of sound than perhaps other stuff like Chi and other more esoteric stuff. From my partial knowledge, part of the benefit of the sounds is the vibrations the tones cause. Each sound (emotion) is different and vibrates differently. The pronunciation makes sense to me as a wannabe musician. The resonance created by the tones could have an effect on the body. I won't speculate on how this works or what is the true benefits, but that I can see how this could work.

With regard to pronunciation, I think what was referred to was mandarin and Cantonese. Different words are used, hence pronunciation. The different pronunciation may be radically different thus changing the ********y effect. So, if you believe the sounds are beneficial, it would seem the words themselves would be very important. I identify with the sounds more than words though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is just it though, if its the vibrational sound, that's one thing, its not "word dependant", if its has to do with saying "ha" at a certain time and SSuuu at another, then we are getting into a tricky slope.

[southernkf]

That is just it though, if its the vibrational sound, that's one thing, its not "word dependent", if its has to do with saying "ha" at a certain time and SSuuu at another, then we are getting into a tricky slope.

Perhaps the question is where there is an importance on the specific word or is it the sound? If you believe it is the word itself, then your going to have different tonal and v i b r t o r y effects if the word is significantly changed. Else we could just use English words, Japanese words, French words and get the same effect. I suspect that the power isn't in the words your saying (wouldn't that justbe called magic ;) ), but in the effect of the sound the word makes? if it is the phonetic sound, then significantly changing the phonetics would seem to have a different effect. All this goes beyond my knowledge so I'll bow out and read the response and let others with much more knowledge continue as I could be very wrong in my speculations.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, if you are hoping to have your internal organs stimulated via the vibrational undertones of a sound emited by your own throat while releasing 100% tension out of your body while doing specific movements, you better be world class in terms of octive ranges.

[Wong Ying Home]

Might the choice of word be better aligned to harmonics when relating to this discussion.

Harmonics will create a vib rat o r y frequency, that can be and are felt in the body

Just a thought

[David Jamieson]

what i meant: the so called LSW's book are in NO WAY criterion whose Hung Kyun is more traditional, more correct etc. (maby that is not what you meant when you wrote "I find WL's closer to the LSW publication"). i have seen people to adjust what they have learned to the pics/sequence in the books, i find this ridiculous. even worse is to learn it from the book.

anyway, so many people talk about tit sin kyun, but my impression is that most of them have never learned it, or have learned it form a bad video, or have learned it and do not practice it regularly.

just my 2 cents

not to be off-topic: i saw part of Don Hamby sifu's sap ying kyun/tit sin kyun and i liked it.

all the best

don't get me wrong, hamby clearly has solid hung kuen.

wl has different shape that it is easier for me to relate to. It's a size thing, hamby is, well huge and that's what looks different to me in how his shape moves comparable to other more, let's say diminutive practitioners. :) Like myself (I am only 200 lbs)

[South Paw]

It's not the sounds that do the actual work. It's all about emotions and expressing these (with the help of sounds)......The emotions trigger the organs.

[David Jamieson]

It's not the sounds that do the actual work. It's all about emotions and expressing these (with the help of sounds)......The emotions trigger the organs.

While emotion is a big part, it is the harmonics that create the vibrations that in turn make the tissues dense.

here's the hard science, vibration and percussion increase density in bone and tissue.

while this may not have been known at a microscopic level in the days of yore, the results were definitive. science proved what harmonics do later.

you can protect for instance, the xiphoid process by making the surrounding tissues and the area denser without losing pliability and suppleness that in turn allows for total mobility and wrapping.

some shaolin forms have stamping in them as well. this is not to raise dust, it is to make bone denser and stronger.

[South Paw]

There are some HG scholars that have written about the sounds in TSK, stating that they vibrate/massage the internal organs.
Most HG scholars see this as a misconception. In TSK it is all about breathing, emotions (and their acc. sounds), and movements of the body.

[PM]

there are so much bull****s about "iron thread set" (tit sin kyun) out there, so much. ppl who never learned the set or watched on the video just repeat what they have read couple of years ago in some bad article in some bad martial arts magazine. (ok, sorry for being little harsh again)

tit sin kyun is "internal practice" (loi gung), and the key to suces is a coordination of the mind/intention, body movement, various types of breathing (breath in with the nose/mouth, breath out the nose/mouth, pauses, inside and quickly outside, gentle/forceful breathing, holding one's breath etc.) and the sounds. understanding to 12 bridges (basically different ways how to use power) is essential.

most people i have seen do it as external, isometric exercise, using brute force which is completely wrong.

as for the sounds, after a while everybody will understand and feel how they are connected to the movement. did anybody thought about what kind of sounds people naturaly do in various circustamces, eg. when lifting a heavy object, jumping, feeling cold, hot, tired, being angry (not to mention other situation ;-)) etc.? it is one of the keys to the understanding of sounds. nothing esoterical/magical with the sounds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

While emotion is a big part, it is the harmonics that create the vibrations that in turn make the tissues dense.

here's the hard science, vibration and percussion increase density in bone and tissue.

while this may not have been known at a microscopic level in the days of yore, the results were definitive. science proved what harmonics do later.

you can protect for instance, the xiphoid process by making the surrounding tissues and the area denser without losing pliability and suppleness that in turn allows for total mobility and wrapping.

some shaolin forms have stamping in them as well. this is not to raise dust, it is to make bone denser and stronger.

Would love to see the science behind what you said, any articles out there?
And yes the increase in bone density is one of the factors ( just like in IP training).

[sanjuro_ronin]

as for the sounds, after a while everybody will understand and feel how they are connected to the movement. did anybody thought about what kind of sounds people naturaly do in various circustamces, eg. when lifting a heavy object, jumping, feeling cold, hot, tired, being angry (not to mention other situation ;-)) etc.? it is one of the keys to the understanding of sounds. nothing esoterical/magical with the sounds.


Much like people "naturally" do reverse breathing when they exert close to maximum effort.
But, if it is so "natural", why make a "big deal" about it?

[TenTigers]

It's a big deal, because somebody translated the book, and wrote an article. Now everybody and their Si Bak has to write an article to prove that they know it. These articles get "deeper and deeper", and more and more obscure,(meaning sometimes more and more FOS) in attempts of one-upmanship, to prove their vast knowledge and superiority over each other-God forbid someone admits to not having the last word on anything.
I compare the TSK to forms like sanchin/saamjien, and Sam Bo Gin. The more I practice it, the more I learn-about the form, about the art,about myself. The simple becomes the profound, the mundane becomes the mysterious. My TSK is not the same form I learned twenty years ago, not the same form I learned last week. I am not the same person I was last week.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a big deal, because somebody translated the book, and wrote an article. Now everybody and their Si Bak has to write an article to prove that they know it. These articles get "deeper and deeper", and more and more obscure,(meaning sometimes more and more FOS) in attempts of one-upmanship, to prove their vast knowledge and superiority over each other-God forbid someone admits to not having the last word on anything.
I compare the TSK to forms like sanchin/saamjien, and Sam Bo Gin. The more I practice it, the more I learn-about the form, about the art,about myself. The simple becomes the profound, the mundane becomes the mysterious. My TSK is not the same form I learned twenty years ago, not the same form I learned last week. I am not the same person I was last week.

Excellent points.

[TenTigers]

I found JFS's posts on TSK interesting, but filled with too much gobbletygook for my liking. However, his points on valsalva were interesting. I also find Sifu Yee Chi-Wai's articles interesting, as he makes connections between TCM and TSK, especially the connections with the emotions. Emotions can cause stress, which causes blockages and stagnation, which leads to illness. Certain sounds,combined with loi-gung, focusing on the energy centers where they accumulate, as well as clearing the meridians,release this stasis. There seem to be many different methods, even to the point of different sounds and their usage. Some seem to conflict with each other. I don't know enough about either methods to be an authority, but I use what I know, and how I feel as a guide. Little by little, I make connections. But I feel each person is different, and is affected differently. This becomes a very personal thing, and a private journey.My path isn't the same as your path, although at times we will share paths, and walk alongside each other.
ahh, but isn't that always the case?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very true, on all points, from what I gather JFS IW is highly regards by those that have seen it, certainly some of his advice in private makes alot of sense on how to get the most out of the IW ( such as tension on the contrating and pulling pahse, not just the expanding and "pushing" phase).

There is one thing I wanted to re-adrress and that was the issues/view of "releasing" tension as opposed(?) to working through the tension.

If the IW is suppose to allow one to deliver full power through the ful segment of the striking arc, how does "releasing" tension as the move progresses do that?
I can see how working through the tension along the full arc does, but releasing?

[TenTigers]

there are many different ways to release tension in TSK.
You can do a quick abrupt movement that builds up to a high tension point, then release.
You can release as the body moves or coils.
You can release emotional tension by v i b r a t i n g specific sounds at specific "chakras"*
you can release tension with Ching-Hei-cleansing breath.
you can squeeze.release,squeeze,release during specific moves
you can "localize" tension-one part of the arm/body contains tension, while others are relaxed.
It all depends on which section, and what you are trying to accomplish during the form.
The way we do it, you can play the form differently for different effects. You can play it for strength development, for healing, for iron body, for hei-gung, all depending on intent, yi leads hei.

* I don't know the Cantonese word for chakras. I'd ask Ikfmdc, but he'd probably fuk with me and I'd end up running around calling it "ballsack," or something.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are many different ways to release tension in TSK.
You can do a quick abrupt movement that builds up to a high tension point, then release.
You can release as the body moves or coils.
You can release emotional tension by v i b r a t i n g specific sounds at specific "chakras"*
you can release tension with Ching-Hei-cleansing breath.
you can squeeze.release,squeeze,release during specific moves
you can "localize" tension-one part of the arm/body contains tension, while others are relaxed.
It all depends on which section, and what you are trying to accomplish during the form.
The way we do it, you can play the form differently for different effects. You can play it for strength development, for healing, for iron body, for hei-gung, all depending on intent, yi leads hei.

* I don't know the Cantonese word for chakras. I'd ask Ikfmdc, but he'd probably fuk with me and I'd end up running around calling it "ballsack," or something.

I think you bring up a interesting point, not the ballsack thing though I have no doubt you are probably right about that, I think the different "versions" we see are because they are being done with different "Intent".



You know that this kind of makes me wanna bring up the 'stone warrior" set of Green Dragon Studios ...