Famous masters who didn't start young.

[The Xia]

Most of the big names in TCMA seem to have started in their early teens or as children. I'm curious as to how many started later then that. Any names?

[The Xia]

Chan Hon Chung is a good example. He moved to Hong Kong at 19 and trained very hard at Lam Sai Wing's kwoon while he held down a job as a street vendor.

[The Xia]

ttt.............

[Pork Chop]

Chan Hon Chung is a good example. He moved to Hong Kong at 19 and trained very hard at Lam Sai Wing's kwoon while he held down a job as a street vendor.

chan hon chung started when he was 12; according to his own family's site.
There are some ummm discrepancies on the Lam family site, where they consider him a grand-student; even though he's got a disciple ceremony picture. Not to mention the fact that he and the Chius both opened up schools 5 years before LSW passed away (ample time for any discrepancies to be corrected).

chiu kau found lam sai wing relatively late in life, after studying with other hung gar folks beforehand.

depending on the source, lam sai wing found wong fei hung relatively late in life; though lam sai wing had studied other styles first.

Sun lu tang started guo yun shen at 21 and started with chen ting hua at 30. He too learned other stuff early on in life.

Lam Yiu Kwai became a dragon stylist as an adult- 23 according to the wiki, after already being a teacher in another style of kung fu.

Law Gwong Yuk of mantis fame didn't start training with Fan Yuk Tong until he was 20.

Chiu Chi Man, also of mantis fame, started studying at Ging Mo at the age of 23 and started studying under Law Gwong Yuk at the age of 29- becoming a teacher by age 32, opening up his own school by 37.

A lot of big names started out in different styles before finding where they really fit as adults. But other styles is not really a requirement either. Not everyone grows up with the stuff. Just gotta practice hard.

I imagine it's a similar situation to boxers- some of whom don't get into boxing until their late 20s, but still manage to go pro. In the case of boxers, usually heavyweights have an easier time getting started late than the lighter weights. Though one of the most skilled boxers I knew in Baltimore was around 160 and started in his late 30s, early 40s - just kept at it for a few years.

The big difference with kung fu is if you were already doing something and someone beats you real bad, you tend to drop what you were doing to learn what you just got beat with.

[bodhitree]

Jou Tsung Hua (sp?) started taiji in late 40's.

[The Xia]

chan hon chung started when he was 12; according to his own family's site.
There are some ummm discrepancies on the Lam family site, where they consider him a grand-student; even though he's got a disciple ceremony picture. Not to mention the fact that he and the Chius both opened up schools 5 years before LSW passed away (ample time for any discrepancies to be corrected).
This the one?
http://www.kungfu.co.uk/chan.htm
Yeah, I went by the hungkuen.net bio.
I wonder which one it is. :confused:
Anyway, I always found him to be inspirational because so many people from all styles shut themselves down by talking about how all the "old" masters had more time to practice and started as kids, that they have jobs, school, started later, etc. Here you have Chan Hon Chung, of the "old" generation, that held down a job that was probably more hectic then most people have today, and didn't (if the hungkuen.net bio is true) start as a kid.

chiu kau found lam sai wing relatively late in life, after studying with other hung gar folks beforehand.

depending on the source, lam sai wing found wong fei hung relatively late in life; though lam sai wing had studied other styles first.

Sun lu tang started guo yun shen at 21 and started with chen ting hua at 30. He too learned other stuff early on in life.

Lam Yiu Kwai became a dragon stylist as an adult- 23 according to the wiki, after already being a teacher in another style of kung fu.

Law Gwong Yuk of mantis fame didn't start training with Fan Yuk Tong until he was 20.

Chiu Chi Man, also of mantis fame, started studying at Ging Mo at the age of 23 and started studying under Law Gwong Yuk at the age of 29- becoming a teacher by age 32, opening up his own school by 37.

A lot of big names started out in different styles before finding where they really fit as adults.
Lau Bun and Cheung Lai Chung could be added to that list too. Never really thought about that, but it seems to be a pretty common thing.

But other styles is not really a requirement either. Not everyone grows up with the stuff. Just gotta practice hard.
True. I'm looking for examples though.

I imagine it's a similar situation to boxers- some of whom don't get into boxing until their late 20s, but still manage to go pro. In the case of boxers, usually heavyweights have an easier time getting started late than the lighter weights. Though one of the most skilled boxers I knew in Baltimore was around 160 and started in his late 30s, early 40s - just kept at it for a few years.

The big difference with kung fu is if you were already doing something and someone beats you real bad, you tend to drop what you were doing to learn what you just got beat with.
Didn't Rocky Marciano start in his mid 20s?

[The Xia]

Jou Tsung Hua (sp?) started taiji in late 40's.
He's Yang style right?
If I'm not mistaken, Chen Man Ching started in his 20s.
Both started after getting sick.

[Pork Chop]

This the one?
http://www.kungfu.co.uk/chan.htm
Yeah, I went by the hungkuen.net bio.
I wonder which one it is. :confused:

I believe it's a point of contention between the 2(3) families.
As I said, there were 2 schools open years before LSW's death so if there were problems they should've been brought up then, not after the deaths of everyone involved.


Didn't Rocky Marciano start in his mid 20s?

Yeah, he won the armed forces amateur competition in 1946, at age 23 (born 1923), turned pro at 25.
He originally started out playing baseball but was told that his arm was too weak to play catcher (ironically enough).

Earnie Shavers took up boxing at age 22 and is still considered one of the hardest punchers of all time. Fought his first fight after 2 weeks of training.

George foreman started boxing around age 18 and was an Olympic gold medalist by 19, turned pro a year later in 1969 & won his first 13 fights (11 by knock out). On January 22nd 1973 he became champion, destroying Joe Frazier.

What i think is really interesting to note is how it didn't actually take 10 years for a lot of these guys (kung fu masters included) to get real good; which conflicts what you hear in a lot of kung fu schools. Three to 5 years seemed to be the average.

[The Xia]

I believe it's a point of contention between the 2(3) families.
As I said, there were 2 schools open years before LSW's death so if there were problems they should've been brought up then, not after the deaths of everyone involved.
I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with the age Chan Hon Chung started. In order to not veer this discussion into politics, you can PM me about this if you like.

Yeah, he won the armed forces amateur competition in 1946, at age 23 (born 1923), turned pro at 25.
He originally started out playing baseball but was told that his arm was too weak to play catcher (ironically enough).
lol. That's an interesting piece of trivia.

Earnie Shavers took up boxing at age 22 and is still considered one of the hardest punchers of all time. Fought his first fight after 2 weeks of training.

George foreman started boxing around age 18 and was an Olympic gold medalist by 19, turned pro a year later in 1969 & won his first 13 fights (11 by knock out). On January 22nd 1973 he became champion, destroying Joe Frazier.

What i think is really interesting to note is how it didn't actually take 10 years for a lot of these guys (kung fu masters included) to get real good; which conflicts what you hear in a lot of kung fu schools. Three to 5 years seemed to be the average.
I think a lot of that has to do with the way people train. Many people today, even in good schools, don't really practice much on their own and slack off a lot. Compare this to the way that the "old" masters trained and you can see why. Personally, I think a lot of people these days make up excuses when it comes to training and gaining skill. I somehow doubt that these attitudes were that common during the times the "old" masters trained in.

[Pork Chop]

I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with the age Chan Hon Chung started. In order to not veer this discussion into politics, you can PM me about this if you like.

I don't know specifics and I wasn't there.
But if the guy started at 12 (1921) and opens a school in 1938; that's a huge difference from starting at 19 (1928) and opening a school in 1938.


I think a lot of that has to do with the way people train. Many people today, even in good schools, don't really practice much on their own and slack off a lot. Compare this to the way that the "old" masters trained and you can see why. Personally, I think a lot of people these days make up excuses when it comes to training and gaining skill. I somehow doubt that these attitudes were that common during the times the "old" masters trained in.

Possibly; however I think teachers today do a lot to slow progress- whether intentionally or not. The level used to be higher in years past; but then there seemed to be much more of a sense of community. People spent more time honing their skill to do better, instead of sitting around talking trash about everyone else. Training methods have changed some. Teachers are a lot softer on their students too, i'd imagine. The lei tai & backroom challenges gave way to tournaments and continuous sparring. Not much in the way of quality control anymore as a result.

Personally, I'd like to see kung fu folks do more to embrace kuo shu (lei tai) fighting- maybe update it with the daido juku space helmet instead of the headgear they got and improve the rules about knees & elbows from the clinch. More mma & sanda would be a good thing too. Use the sport competitions as quality control, instead of lineage arguments. Make fighting replace forms as the main focus of training.

[The Xia]

I don't know specifics and I wasn't there.
But if the guy started at 12 (1921) and opens a school in 1938; that's a huge difference from starting at 19 (1928) and opening a school in 1938.
Ok, thanks, now I get what you mean. But to be honest, I don't see either one as that unreasonable.

Possibly; however I think teachers today do a lot to slow progress- whether intentionally or not. The level used to be higher in years past; but then there seemed to be much more of a sense of community. People spent more time honing their skill to do better, instead of sitting around talking trash about everyone else. Training methods have changed some. Teachers are a lot softer on their students too, i'd imagine. The lei tai & backroom challenges gave way to tournaments and continuous sparring. Not much in the way of quality control anymore as a result.

Personally, I'd like to see kung fu folks do more to embrace kuo shu (lei tai) fighting- maybe update it with the daido juku space helmet instead of the headgear they got and improve the rules about knees & elbows from the clinch. More mma & sanda would be a good thing too. Use the sport competitions as quality control, instead of lineage arguments. Make fighting replace forms as the main focus of training.
There are schools that translate their Kung Fu into sport. The problem comes when students aren't taught properly and wind up looking like kickboxers. Personally, I don't consider sport to be the defining quality of TCMA. I have no problem with, and in fact applaud, Kung Fu guys who translate their skills to the mat, lei tai, ring, etc. To me, the ability to use the art as it's meant to be is the defining quality. To have that, forms cannot be the only training method. Other forms of drilling and conditioning are important. Partnerwork is also a must. But when all the smoke is cleared, even if you have schools that do all of these things, it's ultimately up to the student.

[The Xia]

Didn't the Yellow Dragon Monastery start teaching Share Lew when he was 17 or so?

[Pork Chop]

To be honest, I don't see either one as that unreasonable.


it becomes an issue when they say LSW closed his hands in 1925.



There are schools that translate their Kung Fu into sport. The problem comes when students aren't taught properly and wind up looking like kickboxers.

here's the deal; the "kickboxing" you see at a lot of tournaments is actually how a lot of folks actually train at their school. The sparring is seen as something different from the rest of the style. They practice watered down kickboxing; without the strategy or finer points of technique, on the heavybags and in sparring at school. That's why they bust out with it at tourneys.

That being said, using the style for real will still look like a lot of straight punches, looping punches, kicks, and throws; not that different from san da.
So when you use the stuff for real, you're not going to be doing those complicated, 15 move counters you see a lot of people explaining as the moves from their forms. You're also probably not going to see a lot of overly low stances. You may see some of the "strange" hand shapes or finger strikes- but only if those tools have been hardened to withstand the impact.

If you drill the basics from your style enough, making contact with stuff like focus mitts & the heavy bag, and then figure out how to use it in in-school sparring, you're not going to abandon it as soon as you turn up the heat in a fight.

This whole "well that's sport" argument is a little crazy to me. Back in the day you had to accept all comers before being allowed to open a school. If you weren't good enough, you didn't get to open. If you didn't teach well enough, when your #1 took over answering challenges for you as you got older, you'd get shut down.
That level of quality control has been lost. Fighting competitions are about the only legal way to get it back.

I can agree with rule changes however. Boxing doesn't allow backfists, spinning techniques, hammer fists and ain't big on overhand stuff. Sometimes boxing rules get imported into kickboxing & mma venues- thus disallowing some of the punches that are bread n butter for some styles. Open palm may be frowned upon in certain venues as well. That's why i suggested more open kuoshu rules with daido juku helmets so the rules could be opened up without worrying too much about insurance rates & blood baths.

[Pork Chop]

Didn't the Yellow Dragon Monastery start teaching Share Lew when he was 17 or so?

dunno much about the guy, sorry.

[The Xia]

dunno much about the guy, sorry.
That was a general question to the board but thanks. :)

[The Xia]

it becomes an issue when they say LSW closed his hands in 1925.
Ah, so there's the clincher

here's the deal; the "kickboxing" you see at a lot of tournaments is actually how a lot of folks actually train at their school. The sparring is seen as something different from the rest of the style. They practice watered down kickboxing; without the strategy or finer points of technique, on the heavybags and in sparring at school. That's why they bust out with it at tourneys.

That being said, using the style for real will still look like a lot of straight punches, looping punches, kicks, and throws; not that different from san da.
So when you use the stuff for real, you're not going to be doing those complicated, 15 move counters you see a lot of people explaining as the moves from their forms. You're also probably not going to see a lot of overly low stances. You may see some of the "strange" hand shapes or finger strikes- but only if those tools have been hardened to withstand the impact.

If you drill the basics from your style enough, making contact with stuff like focus mitts & the heavy bag, and then figure out how to use it in in-school sparring, you're not going to abandon it as soon as you turn up the heat in a fight.

This whole "well that's sport" argument is a little crazy to me. Back in the day you had to accept all comers before being allowed to open a school. If you weren't good enough, you didn't get to open. If you didn't teach well enough, when your #1 took over answering challenges for you as you got older, you'd get shut down.
That level of quality control has been lost. Fighting competitions are about the only legal way to get it back.

I can agree with rule changes however. Boxing doesn't allow backfists, spinning techniques, hammer fists and ain't big on overhand stuff. Sometimes boxing rules get imported into kickboxing & mma venues- thus disallowing some of the punches that are bread n butter for some styles. Open palm may be frowned upon in certain venues as well. That's why i suggested more open kuoshu rules with daido juku helmets so the rules could be opened up without worrying too much about insurance rates & blood baths.
You are right about why students often resort to bad kickboxing. What you train is what will come out. I agree with your San Da statement in some cases (like a lot of the Buk Sing Choy Li Fut fighters, for example), but not in all. You can see Choy Li Fut fist seeds in Buk Sing sport fights. Needless to say, they still wouldn't be using panther fists for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean they can't either. I would say that it really depends on just who it is that's using the style. A high level practitioner should be able to use beyond basic applications. That takes a lot of proper training though. Ditto for the hand weapons you mentioned. I get a laugh when MMA trolls bash finger strikes, clawing, etc because I know what well conditioned hands feel like. I agree that pads and focus mitts are great, but I feel that two-man work is very important. And when it comes to short-hand, that's something that has to be transmitted from teacher to student. I have no problem with combat sport, but I wouldn't neglect everything else and lose the art.

[Pork Chop]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that southern shorts wouldn't be getting the transmission from the hands, i mean that's the whole point.
Two man stuff's integral.
The only thing I don't like is the apps where the "attacker" leaves his arm out there forever while the other guy does like 10 different techniques to him.
That's the stuff that's impossible to pull of for real and the first stuff that goes out the window when the fight heats up.

True, arts that use a lot of fingers and open palms aren't going to look like san da, old school, bas rutten era pancrase fights might be more applicable; but it'll defintely have it's own flavor. It won't look the same as the other stuff out there; it just won't have a lot of the pretty shaw brothers poses a lot of people may be expecting.

I believe in training all your tools and then only using what's safe in competition.
My Thai gym in VA did a lot of illegal moves in practice- elbows to the head, stomping knee joint, etc - but sparred & fought with what is/was legal; not that they couldn't pull out the other stuff if need-be.

Bareknuckle boxing looks/looked a lot different than the gloved variety. The training had a decent amount of iron palm stuff. Gloves lead to stuff like hammerfists & backfists being taken out. For kung fu to look like it's supposed to, I think implementing some format of small/mma/no gloves is important. Kuoshu lei tai or mma format would be a nice start. Yeah I know sport's different, but the nice thing about being able to do sport is that adrenaline won't make you deviate from your gameplan as much.

[bodhitree]

He's Yang style right?



Actually he's all of the major three (Yang, Wu, Chen)

[The Xia]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that southern shorts wouldn't be getting the transmission from the hands, i mean that's the whole point.
Two man stuff's integral.
That's something I think more people should realize.

The only thing I don't like is the apps where the "attacker" leaves his arm out there forever while the other guy does like 10 different techniques to him.
That's the stuff that's impossible to pull of for real and the first stuff that goes out the window when the fight heats up.
I don't like that stuff either. That's not good form breakdown, that's bull**** demos to wow people that don't know any better. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the ole "Ok so you go to punch me", *person sticks his arm out and other guy begins doing a long combination of strikes, locks, and breaks while person pretends he is directing traffic*, "So that's what I do when someone goes to hit me," person "Woah! That's the real deal!" :rolleyes:

True, arts that use a lot of fingers and open palms aren't going to look like san da, old school, bas rutten era pancrase fights might be more applicable; but it'll defintely have it's own flavor. It won't look the same as the other stuff out there; it just won't have a lot of the pretty shaw brothers poses a lot of people may be expecting.
You know, as much as it's become sheik to criticize Shaw Bros. MA choreography, it's a lot better then most of the other stuff that's around. You can see real Kung Fu in them as opposed to what's around in movies today. The fights in those movies were pretty much dramatic, stylized two-man sparring drills. I think this is a good example of what Kung Fu should look like in application.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4

I believe in training all your tools and then only using what's safe in competition.
My Thai gym in VA did a lot of illegal moves in practice- elbows to the head, stomping knee joint, etc - but sparred & fought with what is/was legal; not that they couldn't pull out the other stuff if need-be.
There seems to be so few Muay Thai schools doing that.

Bareknuckle boxing looks/looked a lot different than the gloved variety. The training had a decent amount of iron palm stuff. Gloves lead to stuff like hammerfists & backfists being taken out.
I didn't know that. The MMA crowd would have you believe that old bareknuckle boxing was crappy. Not that I believed it.

For kung fu to look like it's supposed to, I think implementing some format of small/mma/no gloves is important. Kuoshu lei tai or mma format would be a nice start. Yeah I know sport's different, but the nice thing about being able to do sport is that adrenaline won't make you deviate from your gameplan as much.
That and there'd be far less maiming and/or killing. :D
Which is why I'd support the helmets you were talking about as well. I'd still keep a lot of stuff illegal for obvious reasons. A good example of a group that trains TMA correctly but also has success in sport MA is Fu Jow Pai. They develop very strong tiger claws, but even though they can't use them in sport, they've had some very successful ring fighters.

[The Xia]

Actually he's all of the major three (Yang, Wu, Chen)
Thanks. Thought he was only Yang for some reason.

[Pork Chop]

Shaw brothers really depends on the movie.
Some not bad, some REALLY bad.

I've always had a soft spot for SPM. Always wanted to learn but never lived near any teachers. I like some of the stuff on this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg
But I would probably stress that each of those moves occurs in a split second and an opponent is more likely to retract his hand a bit further after every attempted attack.

My old thai gym went as far as to fly in a general from thailand to teach bareknuckle stuff; eventhough they were mostly a sport gym.
A lot of the bareknuckle stuff gets you more money if you pull it off in a fight in thailand, so it's kept alive in a lot of camps for that reason.

Old bareknuckle boxing wasn't crappy for sure.
It looked different, but to say it was ineffective would be a lie.
You don't have 2 or 300 fights without knowing how to scrap.
Just watch good ole' John L, the last of the bareknuckle champs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfcYJpUig0
You can kinda see the strategy based on fakes and unexpected angles.

Some more examples of the early gloved style (based heavily on bareknuckle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFdL5VkcQM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CCU3pnlEOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dTnFl2Z0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfQwLykgKGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuJOY6-fQMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0apiSy_IE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSVW1Ft-Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhljVYJ9NKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbZ8Mb0MdT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8mVLPbvLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauVMvNspIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsB3O0JnBjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa0GNDAP8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhfU-Qi4Blw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TTCPz0nBeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjVK6Lsj28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2hqeoDJYdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJGCTySChDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4iBHrHTf-k

Russian vid, what's this look like to you? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAqd6YeC10

I know that's a ton of videos but there's some GOLD in there... Sam Langford, Henry Wills, Dempsey, Jim Jeffries, Corbett, Fitz, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard... Some of the best boxing has to offer. And just to preempt any teasing about the old style, i think the heavyweights give any of the 70s legends problems - and most boxing historians agree the 70s greats walk through anybody around these days.

[The Xia]

Shaw brothers really depends on the movie.
Some not bad, some REALLY bad.
It depends on the actors and choreographers. Personally, I like Gordon Liu and Lau Kar Leung. But even with cast and crew that aren't as up to shape on MA as they are, I still prefer them over contemporary Wushu action.

I've always had a soft spot for SPM. Always wanted to learn but never lived near any teachers. I like some of the stuff on this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg
But I would probably stress that each of those moves occurs in a split second and an opponent is more likely to retract his hand a bit further after every attempted attack.
Except with someone like Mark Foon doing those moves, that guy would be finished before the impulse to retract even hits him! :D
Here is an old demo with various Jook Lum stylists and Kwan Tak Hing. Mark Foon is the last performance and shows some serious speed.
The lion dancing ends at 1:53.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4gf97u1mhg

Old bareknuckle boxing wasn't crappy for sure.
It looked different, but to say it was ineffective would be a lie.
You don't have 2 or 300 fights without knowing how to scrap.
Just watch good ole' John L, the last of the bareknuckle champs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfcYJpUig0
You can kinda see the strategy based on fakes and unexpected angles.

Some more examples of the early gloved style (based heavily on bareknuckle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFdL5VkcQM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CCU3pnlEOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dTnFl2Z0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfQwLykgKGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuJOY6-fQMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0apiSy_IE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSVW1Ft-Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhljVYJ9NKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbZ8Mb0MdT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8mVLPbvLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauVMvNspIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsB3O0JnBjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa0GNDAP8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhfU-Qi4Blw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TTCPz0nBeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjVK6Lsj28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2hqeoDJYdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJGCTySChDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4iBHrHTf-k

Russian vid, what's this look like to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAqd6YeC10

I know that's a ton of videos but there's some GOLD in there... Sam Langford, Henry Wills, Dempsey, Jim Jeffries, Corbett, Fitz, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard... Some of the best boxing has to offer. And just to preempt any teasing about the old style, i think the heavyweights give any of the 70s legends problems - and most boxing historians agree the 70s greats walk through anybody around these days.
Didn't get through all of them, but I liked what I saw. They have a completely different style then modern boxers. Some very different manuevering and punching. I especially like the wide-arc flurry that Dempy floored his opponant with. Never saw anything like that from modern boxers. Is there anybody in this country seriously (as in excluding LARPers) training old style boxing?

[Pork Chop]

It depends on the actors and choreographers. Personally, I like Gordon Liu and Lau Kar Leung. But even with cast and crew that aren't as up to shape on MA as they are, I still prefer them over contemporary Wushu action.

The only saving grace that I'll give the wushu stuff is that at least it tends to be fast. Otherwise, yeah, Lau Ga Fei and Lau Ga Leung are 2 of the best. I like Chen Kwan Tai too.



Is there anybody in this country seriously (as in excluding LARPers) training old style boxing?

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

[dharmastudent]

Didn't Yang Chen Fu start later in life too? If I remember right he didn't show much of an interest in taiji when he was younger, but got into it later in life.

[Chosen-frozen]

Didn't Yang Chen Fu start later in life too? If I remember right he didn't show much of an interest in taiji when he was younger, but got into it later in life.

While he wasn`t interested in tai chi his father pushed him into trainingfrom an early age. The reason he wasn`t interested was because the training he and his brother went through was so intense. His father didn`t let up on them until Cheng Fu had run away and attempted suicide to get out of training.

I don`t have a copy anymore but "Asian Fighting Arts" by Drager and Smith had alot of biographies of late 19th and early 20th century Chinese masters. I remember them mentioning a Hsing-I master who became a famous bodyguard and teacher. He hadn`t begun any martial arts training until he was in his 50`s.

[Grizzlygrime]

My Si-gung, Grandmaster Ip Chun i belive didnt begin training until he was 36 years old

[John Takeshi]

http://www.danielsterlingmartialarts.com/daniel_sterling.html

Can anyone verify this information?!:eek: I've been using Daniel Sterling as role model for all of my students, and never knew he had ties to the Kogo Ryu's!

Is this true? Can it be?

[brianK]

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

Dempsey's book is great. I swear the man was practicing a front-weighted variant on xingyi.

Brian

[The Xia]

The only saving grace that I'll give the wushu stuff is that at least it tends to be fast. Otherwise, yeah, Lau Ga Fei and Lau Ga Leung are 2 of the best. I like Chen Kwan Tai too.
I actually prefer non-Wushu crappy martial arts action. At least the goofiness of the actors becomes a source of humor. Also, I find that everything doesn't meld into one bland mesh that's indistinguishable from the next. It may be crap, but it looks like different crap lol.

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ
I didn't know that Dempsey did other arts. I knew he had a book out. I heard good things about it.

[The Xia]

A lot of stories about martial artists from long ago seem to indicate later starts. Hung Hei Goon was said to be a tea merchant before entering the Shaolin Temple. Som Dot's story indicates that he wasn't a child when he started Kung Fu. San Te's story as depicted in "Master Killer" also fits the bill.

[The Xia]

ttt.............

[Lucas]

My Si-gung, Grandmaster Ip Chun i belive didnt begin training until he was 36 years old

From what i read in the first wing chun book that GM Ip Chun produced with Michael Tse, he picked up his training once he left for hongkong in his thirties.

he had trained previously, though when training became outlawed in the mainland, he discontinued, to pick it back up later when he returned to his father.

to his credit though, he had a long laps in training and did return in his thirties.

now a vibrant oldster

[The Xia]

From what i read in the first wing chun book that GM Ip Chun produced with Michael Tse, he picked up his training once he left for hongkong in his thirties.

he had trained previously, though when training became outlawed in the mainland, he discontinued, to pick it back up later when he returned to his father.

to his credit though, he had a long laps in training and did return in his thirties.

now a vibrant oldster
That's good inspiration for those who talk about how they used to train but come up with a giant list of excuses as to why they won't anymore.

[The Xia]

Jou Tsung Hua – Late 40s in Tai Chi Chuan (Yang, Wu, and Chen)
Chen Man Ching - 20s in Tai Chi Chuan (Yang)
Law Gwong Yuk – 20 in Seven Star Praying Mantis
Chiu Chi Man – 23 at the Ging Mo, 29 in Seven Star Praying Mantis

[John Takeshi]

Well, all I know is I started at the age of 2 1/8, and I was a Shao-Lin Kuei master (Shao-lin Ninjitsu) by the age of, oh, I don't know, maybe 11? I mastered the kata Dante at the age of 6, when most of you were probably learning how to wipe your own butts.

You have to start young, or you'll be forever wiping your butt with your kung-fu.

[John Takeshi]

Jou Tsung Hua – Late 40s in Tai Chi Chuan (Yang, Wu, and Chen)
Chen Man Ching - 20s in Tai Chi Chuan (Yang)
Law Gwong Yuk – 20 in Seven Star Praying Mantis
Chiu Chi Man – 23 at the Ging Mo, 29 in Seven Star Praying Mantis

Chen Man Ching? Try Chan Yao Ming....hahaha.......don't make me laugh.....okay, maybe just a little.......LOL......I just tooted.........

[bodhitree]

Takeshi you are a queer.

[The Xia]

Wai Lun Choi started training at 18 in Lama Pai. Also studied Muay Thai, Judo, My Jaw Lau Horn, and Northern Shaolin. Started Liu He Ba Fa at 24.

[The Xia]

In many bios of the TCMA "old guard," it's often mentioned how so and so started as a child, etc. I started this thread to see how many of the “old guard” that go against this grain so to speak. But has anyone come across people who use the age he started training as a means of self-promotion. Not necessarily to sell classes or anything but to convince others of skills? Yet when you see what they have, it's not all they (or others) crack themselves up to be. There seems to be a mentality that you have to start as a little kid to be great. I don’t know where it comes from. Maybe some of that has to do with PRC-Wushu standards. Wherever it came from I can only see this as discouraging people from taking up martial arts and giving false confidence to people who did start young yet don't necessarily have what others assume they do.

[bakxierboxer]

... Otherwise, yeah, Lau Ga Fei and Lau Ga Leung are 2 of the best. I like Chen Kwan Tai too.

Oh, yes!
Definitely Chen Kwan Tai!
"Boxer from Shantung"
"Man of Iron"
for his "character portrayals"
Later flics for his (much improved long-hand) TCMA.

[David Jamieson]

Q: How old is the Buddha

A: The Buddha is as old as you are!

:-)

Secondly, if you are determined, persistent and correct in your practice, it doesn't matter how old you are when you started. It's not about status points. refer to teh Q&A above. :p

[The Xia]

Oh, yes!
Definitely Chen Kwan Tai!
"Boxer from Shantung"
"Man of Iron"
for his "character portrayals"
Later flics for his (much improved long-hand) TCMA.
I think he was primarily Tai Shing Pekwar from Chan Sau Chung. I also recall hearing that he picked up some Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut.

[The Xia]

Q: How old is the Buddha

A: The Buddha is as old as you are!

:-)

Secondly, if you are determined, persistent and correct in your practice, it doesn't matter how old you are when you started. It's not about status points. refer to teh Q&A above. :p
I think the issue is in that what should be adhered to is not always the case. Whatever the reason, it seems to be seen as a point of status. Not saying it's right, but you've probably seen it happen quite a few times.

[Lucas]

In many bios of the TCMA "old guard," it's often mentioned how so and so started as a child, etc. I started this thread to see how many of the “old guard” that go against this grain so to speak. But has anyone come across people who use the age he started training as a means of self-promotion. Not necessarily to sell classes or anything but to convince others of skills? Yet when you see what they have, it's not all they (or others) crack themselves up to be. There seems to be a mentality that you have to start as a little kid to be great. I don’t know where it comes from. Maybe some of that has to do with PRC-Wushu standards. Wherever it came from I can only see this as discouraging people from taking up martial arts and giving false confidence to people who did start young yet don't necessarily have what others assume they do.


Also, many people who may have started young, may not have been fully dedicated at a very young age. Many were, but it would be rediculous to assume every person that started MA as a child was serious from the get go. Some people may not have realized the importance of their MA training until a later date when a personal revelation helped them to see what form of dedication is required for their studies.

[bakxierboxer]

I think he was primarily Tai Shing Pekwar from Chan Sau Chung. I also recall hearing that he picked up some Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut.

He probably did pick up quite a bit along the way.
I mentioned the Tai Shing Pek War in another thread.
In those first 2 flics I mentioned, you could see his origin when he changed stances.

[The Xia]

Also, many people who may have started young, may not have been fully dedicated at a very young age. Many were, but it would be rediculous to assume every person that started MA as a child was serious from the get go. Some people may not have realized the importance of their MA training until a later date when a personal revelation helped them to see what form of dedication is required for their studies.
That's another major factor to consider.

He probably did pick up quite a bit along the way.
I mentioned the Tai Shing Pek War in another thread.
In those first 2 flics I mentioned, you could see his origin when he changed stances.
Did that change later on?

[bakxierboxer]

...... Did that change later on?

Yes, he got much better...... in other words you could "see it less", but it was still there if you looked closely enough & had a "good eye" for "things like that".

[The Xia]

Yes, he got much better...... in other words you could "see it less", but it was still there if you looked closely enough & had a "good eye" for "things like that".
Then would "seeing it more" imply he was "not as good"? :confused:

[bakxierboxer]

Then would "seeing it more" imply he was "not as good"? :confused:

I think it would be more of an indication of the fight choreographer's willingness to accept the performance.