Lum Gwai

[The Xia]

Are they actually real? If they are, anyone know anything about them?

[B-Rad]

What's it supposed to be? (don't know this word)

[jdhowland]

The only source I know of for the lahm gwai/ lin kuei tradition is a book written by a Wing Chun guy. Leung Ting, I think.

They seem to have been associated with beggar's style gung fu as well as phoney mendicant taoists. Charlatans, medicine shows, religious quackery, "strongman" stunts, and skillful poaching were as common in China as elsewhere. It's possible that these kinds of skills were directly ancestral to ninjutsu. I don't know of any koryu ninjutsu system that traces its traditions to China, but ninja is a Chinese term.

[jdhowland]

I found Leung Ting's book. The title is Skills of the Vagabonds.

[Satori Science]

At 2:20 there is the Lueng Ting and his take on Vagabond skills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRJEWHzGTo

[The Xia]

I don't know of any koryu ninjutsu system that traces its traditions to China, but ninja is a Chinese term.
Really? I never heard that one.

[The Xia]

Yeah, I know about the "Skills of the Vagabonds" book but I'm wondering about skills beyond circus and stage magic type tricks. I'm thinking more along the lines of stealth, light body skills, etc.

[The Xia]

What's it supposed to be? (don't know this word)
Lum=Forest
Gwai=Ghost

[The Xia]

He seems to know a bit about Lum Gwai.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27924&page=5
Where are you on this TT? :D

[jdhowland]

Really? I never heard that one.

Only in the sense that it is Sino-Japanese--japanese pronounciation of chinese syllables. I was simply speculating that there may some reason the Japanese prefer this over native terminology. The compound may not be used in China.

[jdhowland]

Yeah, I know about the "Skills of the Vagabonds" book but I'm wondering about skills beyond circus and stage magic type tricks. I'm thinking more along the lines of stealth, light body skills, etc.

Tibetan White Crane headmaster Ng Siu Jung passed on light body skills to some of his students. One method is to practice running up steep slopes or planks leaned against a wall. Another involves a fluttering footwork with a short running stride. Lama Pai master Lo Wai Keung supposedly teaches some of these skills. I seem to recall hearing that Lok Chee Fu practiced this as well.

Cheuk Tse taught me steel bolt throwing techniques--the chinese equivalent of shurikenjutsu.

There is also a literary tradition about gecko gung fu in which practitioners do the human fly thing. It's a good method for escape and concealment. The stories of this lizard gung fu have inspired some people to create their own methods. I did this myself in my youth. It's a lot of fun in an urban setting. Where I live now I call it "rock climbing." I'm pleased to see that gecko gung is thriving today under the name of freerunning.

[The Xia]

Only in the sense that it is Sino-Japanese--japanese pronounciation of chinese syllables. I was simply speculating that there may some reason the Japanese prefer this over native terminology. The compound may not be used in China.
What does the term mean?

[The Xia]

Tibetan White Crane headmaster Ng Siu Jung passed on light body skills to some of his students. One method is to practice running up steep slopes or planks leaned against a wall. Another involves a fluttering footwork with a short running stride. Lama Pai master Lo Wai Keung supposedly teaches some of these skills. I seem to recall hearing that Lok Chee Fu practiced this as well.

Cheuk Tse taught me steel bolt throwing techniques--the chinese equivalent of shurikenjutsu.
That's interesting. I've heard of the plank training being used in Ninjutsu. I've also heard of Bagua stylists walking on bricks, first flat, then turned up. I've heard of digging a hole and jumping out of it, digging deeper eventually. I've heard of planting a tree and jumping over it with a baby cow, eventually, both the tree and the cow grow. Then there is plumb flower poles of course. Can you describe the fluttering footwork with a running stride?

There is also a literary tradition about gecko gung fu in which practitioners do the human fly thing. It's a good method for escape and concealment. The stories of this lizard gung fu have inspired some people to create their own methods. I did this myself in my youth.
I have not heard of Gecko Gung Fu (besides in fiction) per say, but I've heard plenty of stories about masters scaling walls and things of that sort.

It's a lot of fun in an urban setting. Where I live now I call it "rock climbing." I'm pleased to see that gecko gung is thriving today under the name of freerunning.
lol.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=jdhowland;788989]Tibetan White Crane headmaster Ng Siu Jung passed on light body skills to some of his students. One method is to practice running up steep slopes or planks leaned against a wall. Another involves a fluttering footwork with a short running stride. Lama Pai master Lo Wai Keung supposedly teaches some of these skills. I seem to recall hearing that Lok Chee Fu practiced this as well.

Hi jdhowland,

May I ask who have you studied TWC with?

Thank you and Regards,

Luca

[TenTigers]

well, according to Masaaki Hatsumi, the Ninja were descended from the Yamabushi-Mystic Mountain Warriors who fled China and hid in the mountains of Iga. Bullshido shot this theory down, claiming that Lin Kuei didn't exist until they were seen in the game, Mortal Kombat, but Leung Ting's and Hatsumi's books pre-date these games. The Lum Gwai have a mystique about them as do the Ninja, and of course, any assasin who dressed in black to conceal themselves under the cloak of darkness were termed Lum Gwai. Members of "Beggars Society" who played upon the fears of the locals played up on this as well, but espionage,stealth,hidden weapons,poisons, etc were skills that were developed just as any other warrior skill. Just as every army has their covert ops groups, China was no different. Lum Gwai was more like a generic term thrown around, just as we throw around "Spooks," when referring to SpecOps,SOG, etc.
(I could tell you more, but then I'd have to kill you)

[The Xia]

There was another Lin Kuei reference made before Mortal Kombat besides the Leung Ting book that I remember. I recall it being proven a hoax, but I think it was some guy who claimed to be an inheritor of Lin Kuei martial arts that he called "An Chi" or something like that... Regardless, one more reference before Mortal Kombat. Makes you wonder about some of Bullshido's investigation skills huh? :p
I've heard of a Hakka style called Beggar's Hand (I remember references to Cheung Lai Chung studying it), but I tend to doubt it's "public." Is "beggar" another term for "vagabond" (which Leung Ting used)? Based on your description, the "Beggar's Society" would seem to be the only formal Lum Gwai group. That seems different from the Ninja. Ninja were said to have multiple clans, although there are records of Ninja operating outside of them. There were Samurai who were also Ninja to. The Toda family which Hatsumi traces his lineage back to is the most recent example of this I know of (although some JMA types aren't too happy with the lack of Toda family records).

[jdhowland]

What does the term mean?

Sino-japanese= affected by cultural exchanges between China and Japan.

[jdhowland]

[Hi jdhowland,

May I ask who have you studied TWC with?

Thank you and Regards,

Luca[/QUOTE]

Since this is off the thread I'll send you a PM.

John

[Gru Bianca]

jdhowland,

thanks for the pm. I've replied to you.

Regards,
Luca

[The Xia]

Sino-japanese= affected by cultural exchanges between China and Japan.
I mean the word. What does "Ninja" mean? :)

[jdhowland]

I mean the word. What does "Ninja" mean? :)

Oh. Gotcha. It's something like "One who hides oneself." Also "hiding one's heart" hence the meaning "stoic," "one who endures," or "one who bears hardship."

Not a bad description of the job, I think.

[mok]

Leung Ting is a business man and has published a lot of stuff, much of it outside of his direct sphere of knowledge (wing chun).

I think we have to look at much of what is and was published in china with a critical eye... Remember the 72 consumate secret arts, etc? How many of you think this is authentic?

[jdhowland]

I think we have to look at much of what is and was published in china with a critical eye... Remember the 72 consumate secret arts, etc? How many of you think this is authentic?[/QUOTE]

Yep. The chinese do love to enumerate and make lists: 18 of this, 36 of that, 72 or 108 of something else. These multiples of three are usually meant as generalities. But every once in a while someone claims to know the "original" 36 points, 72 kicks, 18 weapons and 108 postures.

To be fair to Leung Ting, I think his book was intended for popular consumption and is not intended to be a scholarly work on the activities of the Beggars.

[The Xia]

Oh. Gotcha. It's something like "One who hides oneself." Also "hiding one's heart" hence the meaning "stoic," "one who endures," or "one who bears hardship."

Not a bad description of the job, I think.
Thanks. I agree that the word fits. I think Lum Gwai is quite a strong term to.

[The Xia]

Yep. The chinese do love to enumerate and make lists: 18 of this, 36 of that, 72 or 108 of something else. These multiples of three are usually meant as generalities. But every once in a while someone claims to know the "original" 36 points, 72 kicks, 18 weapons and 108 postures.
Those numbers have numerological significance. They're all multiples of three if you notice.

[The Xia]

ttt............

[The Xia]

Were there any specific styles associated with Lum Gwai? I'm guessing Beggar's Style would be one?

[TenTigers]

I think JMD would be abetter source at this point, as he seems to have alot of info connected to Su Hak-Fu,one of the Ten Tigers. So Hut-Yee (Begger So) was also one of the Guungdong Sup-Fu. From what I've been told, and from what I have seen in books and articles, Beggar sect I believe is more Hakka based. I think their Lion is Hakka as well? Hakka Kuen was just that, before they gave each variation a name(and history) Bak Mei was called Hakka Kuen, Chu-Ga was called Hakka Kuen,etc. All roads lead to Rome.(or KwangSai?)

[The Xia]

Yeah I had a feeling that Hakka Kuen would have major association with it. I know what you mean about "all roads trace back to Rome" and how SPM, Bak Mei, etc have all been called Hakka Kuen. I've heard mostly through references to Cheung Lai Chung about a Hakka style called "Begger's Hand" that he learned along with Dragon before studying Bak Mei.

[jdhowland]

Can you describe the fluttering footwork with a running stride?

Running on the balls of the feet using short strides, knees slightly flexed, thigh muscles and hip flexors doing most of the work. I believe the idea is to move quickly while having as little impact as possible on the ground.

Some white crane schools also keep up the tradition of verticle jump training. Quentin Fong has a terraced garden in his back yard with concrete ledges--a source of pain for many students.

[The Xia]

Running on the balls of the feet using short strides, knees slightly flexed, thigh muscles and hip flexors doing most of the work. I believe the idea is to move quickly while having as little impact as possible on the ground.

Some white crane schools also keep up the tradition of verticle jump training. Quentin Fong has a terraced garden in his back yard with concrete ledges--a source of pain for many students.
Thanks. Do you know of other Southern TCMA that do this?

[jdhowland]

Thanks. Do you know of other Southern TCMA that do this?

No, I don't. I have heard of many southern styles practicing footwork on muih fa jong, teapots, rims of baskets, etc., but none do the running. Maybe it's a peculiarity of lama styles imported from western China.

I studied under two masters of the lama tradition and, although they were from different branches of the art, both emphasized running and jumping as a part of daily training. Running and jumping contests were important sports among ethnic Tibetans and were even a part of monastic training for some kinds of monks such as "lung-gom-pa" messengers.

The general consensus seems to be that southern systems prefer to issue power while grounded, hence good footwork but not a lot of jumping. Some northern stylists have no problem with issuing power while in mid-air.

[The Xia]

No, I don't. I have heard of many southern styles practicing footwork on muih fa jong, teapots, rims of baskets, etc., but none do the running. Maybe it's a peculiarity of lama styles imported from western China.

I studied under two masters of the lama tradition and, although they were from different branches of the art, both emphasized running and jumping as a part of daily training. Running and jumping contests were important sports among ethnic Tibetans and were even a part of monastic training for some kinds of monks such as "lung-gom-pa" messengers.
Sounds great. One of the things I like about it is your running becomes martial arts practice. You know, I've always wondered just how much in the way of Lama practice remains in LR arts. Here is another example of some of it.

The general consensus seems to be that southern systems prefer to issue power while grounded, hence good footwork but not a lot of jumping. Some northern stylists have no problem with issuing power while in mid-air.
Stances definately account for different kinds of jing. Although, it's worthy to note the jumping that's found in southern traditions. I tend to think lots of it is battlefied material. Also, there are Southern stylists that are famous for their "light body skills," such as Lum Sang of Jook Lum Southern Mantis.

[The Xia]

ttt..............