Wooden Dummy

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since its not specific to just WC, I decided to post in this forum and not the WC one.

I wanted to get some views on the different ones - the CLF dummy and the hung ga ones too.
Also I wanted to get views on how hard to hit the darn thing and fixed arms VS spring arms and such.

I also wanted to get views on the CONS of the Wooden dummy, the bad stuff that goes with it.

And why has no one created an anatomically correct wd that we can hit full force !?!?!?

[Wong Ying Home]

Eagle Claw has a mook yan jong, round body single arm in centre, single curved leg at bottom. Top of dummy is wrapped in leather for striking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Padded for FULL FORCE striking or simply "hard" striking ?

[mantis108]

I am of the opinion that the wooden dummy training can be for impact conditioning and attribute building. So it is more about your goal then what the tool is designed.

The two prominent design - Wing Chun and CLF Ching Jong are both great training tools.

The Wing Chun Jong is great for enhancing the close quartered manoeuvre ability. It would make more sense to accent on sticking, transitioning and fine tuning economy of motion. The impact would more about jolting and/or snapping type of energy. This is why it's ideal for connecting the ground with your structure via the Dan Tian. Some people would "slap" the jong instead and transition in high speed instead, which is fine IMHO.

The CLF Ching Jong (balance dummy) IMHO is great for long range Pigua type of training. Depending on the design, you can hit pretty hard with this jong and may doing Tie Kao (ramming and leaning) type of strike-throw with it. The ability to use long range entries and switching from long range to close range can be training by this jong. For impact conditioning, this is a great tool. The type of energy is more on the through the back (Tongbi) type. Also coiling and circling footwork would be ideal to train with it.

Elbows and knees are great on both jong designs .

BTW, I am not a fan of bare naked jong for hard hitting conditioning. The damage to your hand is not worth the risk. Training is for the long term, we must take good care of our body as well. So by all means rap it with ropes and/or cover it with sand bags.

Just some thoughts for now.

Mantis108

[sanjuro_ronin]

And do you feel that a solid wood post, well wrapped, can allow one to hit it as hard as he would hit a heavy Bag ?

[mantis108]

And do you feel that a solid wood post, well wrapped, can allow one to hit it as hard as he would hit a heavy Bag ?

Good question. But we must bear in mind that heavy bag training and wood post are not necessary one and the same although both aim to condition the strikes.

Heavy bag can bring out the most of your punching or kicking powers especially for the leverage punching structure (ie boxing). However, it is prudent to wrap your hands especially supporting the wrists while punching the heavy bag if you don't want to break your wrist. This takes away conditioning the impact point namely the knuckles. So if you are aiming for knock out only strategy, training the heavy bag is king.

But if you are looking to condition the toughness of the hands without the help of wrapping the wrist and would use strikes with throws, takedowns, Chin Na or what have you, then the wood post is better IMHO. Sure you don't punch as hard as you would with the heavy bag but you sure with have toughen your hands. This is more ideal for TMA attribute building regardless of style.

There is nothing to prevent you to do both training at the same time but it is prudent to observe the methodologies' pros and cons. By all means, do incorporate both in your training.

Mantis108

[Golden Arms]

I dont think you can ever hit it that hard because it is generally either planted into the ground like a stake (doesnt give, do the physics), or on a frame that has give, but would probably snap if you start REALLY laying into it day after day. I dont think that is what the dummy is for though. That kind of power comes from hitting heavy bags/sand bags/etc, dummy work works my bridges, snap, channeling force through my body from the ground, and a bunch of other stuff.

The one I generally use is a log with a sweepable metal leg wrapped in foam and duct tape, holes for arms that come out in the center at stomach and chest angling to head height, as well as two on the sides that would be about mid chest height, using two at a time. We generally use bats for arms and do aggressive bridge work, and movements that involve conditioning the arms as you find your alignment as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So there is no way to get the "best of both worlds" in regards to the WD?

I mean, the issues one CAN have with a HB is its lack of "arms and legs" and the issues one CAN have with the WD is NOT being able to drill it like we are SUPPOSE to. ie: full force, full intent.

[mantis108]

So there is no way to get the "best of both worlds" in regards to the WD?

I mean, the issues one CAN have with a HB is its lack of "arms and legs" and the issues one CAN have with the WD is NOT being able to drill it like we are SUPPOSE to. ie: full force, full intent.

Well, the issue really is what kind of martial artist are you? Are you a Kung Fu man or are you a kick boxer/san shou (the sport) fighter? You can still hit pretty hard on the dummy if you so chose but it's not necessary as hard as you could on the heavy bag because of the give (or lack there of with the dummy) without consequences. But then you can definitely work on line/angle familiarization. So it's a trade off - Kung Fu man or something else? It's your call really. ;)

Mantis108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, the issue really is what kind of martial artist are you? Are you a Kung Fu man or are you a kick boxer/san shou (the sport) fighter? You can still hit pretty hard on the dummy if you so chose but it's not necessary as hard as you could on the heavy bag because of the give (or lack there of with the dummy) without consequences. But then you can definitely work on line/angle familiarization. So it's a trade off - Kung Fu man or something else? It's your call really. ;)

Mantis108

Are you insinuating that kung fu men don't hit full contact ???:eek:

[Golden Arms]

I would say in simple terms, view Wooden Dummy just like you would Speed Bag or Thai Pads....they are all supplemental to each other. I personally use all 4 of those in my training and each fills a good role.

[mantis108]

The best way to find out whether there is good striking power is to train with the dummy and then test it on a willing partner.

It is highly unlikely that you will get the maximum power deliveried by leverage punching structure through the dummy without any hand protection gear but you are more or less limited to train the 4 punches (jab, cross, hook and uppercut) plus elbows and knees with just using the heavy bag. Now there are more ways to hit an opponents "hard" with other body part (ie finger tips, palm, back of the hand, the forearms, shines, etc). You can train all of those relative harder than it would on a wooden dummy than on a live training partner. Again if you are looking for "quick fixes" by all means go for the heavy bag training. If you are aiming to REFINE and HONE your skill as a Kung Fu man other than seeking to bulldoze someone over, then it is advisable to work with the wooden dummy (if you can afford one) IMHO. I have tried strap on wooden dummy arms on a wavemaster which allows you to do both leverage punching (and kicking) and majority of wooden dummy work (sticking and all). Hack, you can even simulate a double leg shoot with that set up.

Wooden dummy offers a chance to work on your form and strikes if no live partners is available. It is not a be all end on training by any mean. I have seen people breaking the wooden parts (never the trunk though). Can soft hitting do that? Obviously not. But at the same time you'll have to ask why not go breaking bricks and tiles instead if you are into breaking stuff. Some people say that you should treat the dummy like a person and they go so far as calling the dummy wooden man. So ...

Anyhoo, it's your training and it's your call. I am saying is that discern the training methodologies and maximize them to your advantage.

Mantis108

[sanjuro_ronin]

But, if one could drill the WD full force, how would that effect one's training? would that be an ideal situation ?
It wouldn't replace HB work of course, but it would add to a WD session, no?

[Golden Arms]

If you could suspend a dummy in some secured way like a double end bag or heavy bag with a spring setup and a retaining cord at the bottom, and work it close to full power with strikes while still having access to the arms and legs, it would be a great training tool. I dont know that it would be that much better than just doing rounds on a heavy bag and then working the dummy though, as its not something that eats up a huge amount of time. The longest I have spent on it is 45 min, and on average, doing a couple rounds worth of stuff on it is good enough to develop and sharpen what you have.

[TenTigers]

CLF jongs have pads mounted to them for full foce hitting. The arms have more give and can be hit harder than you would hit a WC dummy. The WC dummy is designed more for positioning and flowing around the arms rather than slamming. I know people who like to brag that they have broken several arms on their dummies. They are simply showing that they don't understand what its original intent was.
If you simply padded the jong and hit it full force, it might not be resilient enough for you to strike it without causing damage to your wrist.hands/arms. They do sell pads for the WC jong, however. Still don't think it should be hit full force.
There are also different types of WC jongs. I have a friend in Guangzhao who sells dummies-he wants me to set up a store to sell them. He has the standard mook yan jong, one that is mounted on a spinning platform, and one that has a spring mount so it moves forward and back. He also sells bat jahm dao. I cannot comment on the quality, as I have only seen pics of them. I suppose I would have to order all three-four if I want him to design a CLF jong.
The best clf ching jong I've seen is Sifu Dave Lacy's personal design. You can see it in some pics on his site. The center arm is on a gimbel and moves in a circle rather than simply up and down. My training brother has one, and it is awesome.

[byond1]

Hi Guys,

Some random info and thoughts.


I think Mantis gave a very accurate account, but to add.

In WCK there are several Jongs, most being extinct currently from H.K WCK.

The "Wooden Man Jong" is the most common style Jong. Mainland WCK, traditionaly would dig a divet in the ground, filling it with gravel or sand, and simply stick the Jongs body into it. This would give the Jong the "live" feeling, and give so one can train without damaging oneself. Additionaly at the end of training one would take ones Jong inside for preservation against insects and weather. Typical wood is a very very rare Chinese wood thats almost petrafied - I believe its nickname is "Marble Wood". Now adays a base made of steel is typcialy used.

In H.K when WCK was first openly taught to the public, several branchs emerged. The clan that developed in the Bizzar called "Dai Duk Lan" created a wall mounting devise due to limited space in HK. The system taught there was a mixture of 3 diffearnt family styles, and each familly incorporated WCK and what ever family system was practised. They trace there roots to Chi Shim and the Southern Siu Lum temple, thus stating the Wooden Jong is from Siu Lum.

The second group of cource is world famous Yip man, who borrowed the wall mounted devise from his uncle CHu Chong Man, one of the core masters at Dai Duk Lan. Many think the wall mounted Jong is of Yip mans creation, but photos exist of Pre 1950 at Dai Duk Lan with the Wall mount.

The wall mount added to the "live' feeling as well as the recoil, giving more..."reaction" from the Jong.

The wooden man Jong forms typical focus across WCK lineages is the fine tuning and linking of the 3 standard WCK handforms into one combat ready format, with focus on footwork, body unity, position, and timing.

Above and beyond this the core purpose of the Jong is for being able to fully express ones Fa Ging, as this was impossible against live training partners (if you wanted to keep training partners and friends).

Another benifit less known is the Jong, if set up to your body diminsions, which is a must for truly using it correctly, will self correct all your positions by forcing you to conform. Hence its one of many parts of the system that self corrects you.

The Dai Duk Lan clans use the Jong to train the 3 verticle levels, thus have alot of throwing and sweeping methods on the Jong not found in traditional WCK.


Outside of the Muk Yan Jong , still found in older WCK methods like Yuen Kay Shan Familly , Mai Gai Wong Family, and Yiu Choi Family are the:

1)Juk Jong - bamboo dummy - very pliable with alot of spring to it. Used in training the Snake hand method of WCK.

2) Gwai Jong - Hanging Jong (suspended) - used to train fast hand methods and striking.

3) Sam Sing Jong - 3 star post - 3 posts set in a triangle for kicking

4) Gwun Jong - Pole Post - Large version of the Juk Jong using standard wooden for training the Look Dim Boon Gwun method.

5) Tao Jong - Knife post - used in training the knives.


10 Tigers - It would be great selling Mainland Jongs, they are extremly hard to find!!


B

[sanjuro_ronin]

What site is Sifu Lacy's?

I am contemplating designing one myself, one that is free standing to which I can add weights to it to establish a "resistence" and one that I can drill full force.

[Ben Gash]

Choy Li Fut has several dummies, not just the Ching Jong. There is also the Sah Bau Jong (sand bag dummy) which is akin to a heavy bag http://www.plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/sandbag.html
and the Dahn Wong Jong (spring dummy) which is like a spring mounted makiwara
http://www.plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/springdummy.html among others.
What I find really amusing is that in the west Dummies are all hardwood and canvas, whereas when you see CLF footage from China they're all high density PVC with foam padding :D
You can get a device which is basically the arms from a WC dummy that attaches to a heavy bag.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can get a device which is basically the arms from a WC dummy that attaches to a heavy bag.


That crap sucks worse than a buck toothed crack ***** on speed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some CLF dummy work:

Take that biotch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRJeqLVyYQ&mode=related&search=

freaky swinging arm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZB0lTtHGfE

Padded dummy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIzkdaoEMsI

non-padded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1s7bz6vD5A

[CFT]

I like the look of Mike Pekor's simple striking post training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYJwKJtD_WA

[CLFNole]

To add better resistence to the ching jong attach the long moving arm with bungee cords instead of springs. It makes the tension much greater and makes you work harder doing techniques like chum kiu, poon kiu, etc...

[ngokfei]

After building a few Muk Jong in my time I've taken a favor to ones made out of PVC.

Now this is not the type you find at the local "Home Depot/Lowes" but is industrial grade used for water/sewage lines.

Much stronger.

The arms vary on the skill of the practitioner. I like them to be of medium grade PVC as they can flex a bit, similar to a real arm and as such allows adhesion/redirecting force to be applied easier.


For striking purposes I like to use a few layers of carpet padding then cover it in carpet. (various grades from lush to commercial grade) Leather of course would be best but kind of $$.

Also the additional of pads to specific target areas.

I heard of one guy who took the "Century Bob" and split it open and placed it on his wooden dummy. would like to try that out some time.

Of course being an eagle claw guy I've been constantly working on and improving my design of a spring loaded arm that Qin Na can be executed on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

After building a few Muk Jong in my time I've taken a favor to ones made out of PVC.

Now this is not the type you find at the local "Home Depot/Lowes" but is industrial grade used for water/sewage lines.

Much stronger.

The arms vary on the skill of the practitioner. I like them to be of medium grade PVC as they can flex a bit, similar to a real arm and as such allows adhesion/redirecting force to be applied easier.


For striking purposes I like to use a few layers of carpet padding then cover it in carpet. (various grades from lush to commercial grade) Leather of course would be best but kind of $$.

Also the additional of pads to specific target areas.

I heard of one guy who took the "Century Bob" and split it open and placed it on his wooden dummy. would like to try that out some time.

Of course being an eagle claw guy I've been constantly working on and improving my design of a spring loaded arm that Qin Na can be executed on.

You mean SCH 80 PVC/ABS pipe ?