Questions about Wah Lum.

[Abica]

Hello, this is my first post as a hopefully long time member of these forums, so please be gentle. :)

Basically, I'm a kung fu newbie. I took some TKD as a kid, but haven't touched any sort of martial arts in over 10 years.

Very recently I've been trying to get into kung fu in a big way (my kids plan on signing up with me too), but since I live in Denver (Colorado) I was unable to find any decent schools. While looking for JKD or Wing Chun schools I happened upon Wah Lum which is just a short drive from where I live, and also the only kung fu school I could find that is a reasonable distance away.

I've been trying to research Wah Lum online for the last few days but none of the sites I find are of much use. I've also searched these (and other) forums and haven't found much information regarding what kind of school I can expect Wah Lum to be. Does anybody know any information about any of the instructors, or the overall quality of the school?

I've read there is probably a contract, and the Wah Lum schools are a bit on the pricey side, but none of that is really a concern of mine. I'm trying to get into kung fu as more of a fitness vehicle than a self defense one, so I was also curious whether or not Wah Lum is the correct MA to get me to where I want to go.

Is anybody able to give me some possible personal experiences, or better yet, pros and cons regarding Wah Lum as an art and how useful it would be for my end fitness goal?

I know it seems kind of silly, but I'm unable to find many videos of Wah Lum in action (mainly on youtube), but I was curious as to how similar it is to Wushu regarding high intensity aerial kicks, flips, splits, all of that stuff.

I've heard the workouts are tough, so I'm also wondering what they could comprise of (or really, what does a normal class at any comparable style of kung fu school generally consist of?)

As I mentioned earlier, my 8 year old son, and 13 year old daughter are planning on signing up with me, and since they're very nervous about being in a MA class I was going to take the parent/kids classes with them. I'd really love to know if anybody has taken these kind of classes, and how could I expect them to be structured? I'm sort of afraid the classes with my kids may be a lot less 'aggressive' or more watered down than some of the adult only classes.

I've already signed up for some of the free trials, and am really excited abut getting started, I just want to make sure my money is going to be well spent. Any relevant information is greatly appreciated.

Also, in the case that Wah Lum doesn't work out for us after the trial (I'm hoping it does, though) does anybody else know of some recent schools in the Denver/Littleton/Englewood areas? This forum was my primary source of information when I was trying to locate or cross check schools, but some of the other threads name schools that don't exist or that I can't find anymore.

Thanks again, and sorry that my first post droned on for so long!

[Abica]

Most of the information I am able to find on Wah Lum as a system seems to pretty much echo opinions like the one stated here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=656545&postcount=26

Though I'm not super concerned about it, I was just curious why that seems to be the general consensus.

Thanks!

[18elders]

If you are interested in it just for a workout it would be a good fit for you.
There will be a lot of high kicking and fancy stuff but if your not able to do that don't worry about it.
You will do a lot of leg training, just pay attention to proper alignment of your stances or you may experience problems with your knees.
A big organization with some nice people in it and if your not interested in going down the path for fighting it should work out well for you.

[TaichiMantis]

Talk to Sammygirl (http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/members/sammygirl-10259.html) on Dragonslist, she's been in it for over 7 years.;)

[ironfenix]

I agree with 18 elders. He would know as he was a sifu in wl. It is a fantastic workout. you will get in great shape. Just watch out for your supporting knee turning inward on the low stances. This tends to jack up people's knees. Most professional schools do contracts. That is why they are still there and not closed up like the other schools mentioned.

israel

[PlumDragon]

People who study Wah Lum seem to like it.

Just in case youd like to check other options, there are atleast 2 other decent schools in the South Denver/DTC/Park Meadows areas. Feel free to contact me via PM if you are interested in hearing more.

[Corwyn]

abica,

I've been doing Wah Lum for about 2 years. It is definitely a major work out for your legs. The stances really need your attention. Technique is very important to protect your knees.

As a newbie to CMA one thing you have to keep in mind - There seems to be a HUGE amount of politics - between styles and even in styles.

From talking to people and reading some older threads Wah Lum has certainly had it's share - and with all do respect to those on the forum - some of the comments seem or at least could be tainted do to these politics.

The most important thing is to understand what you want and to see what the attitude of the school and sifu is. I think this is far more important then the style you pick.

By the way - you can youtube just about any style of Kung Fu. Obviously you can not compare the abilities you see there as it covers the ludicrous to the fantastic, but it will give you some idea of the movements of the styles.

Good luck with what ever you chose.

Oh since no one posted it. The main site for wah lum is www . wahlum . com.

[Abica]

Thank you all for your replies. I came on quickly earlier but didn't have a chance to reply to everything, so I decided to wait until after our first trial day.

I must admit, I was very impressed by the level of workout I received today. Most of the stances were natural enough, but I had some slight ankle pain from the riding horse stance - though I have a feeling this was more due to not having stretched my ankle before trying the stance.

Regarding the school, from what I've seen so far it fits the bill for my need to the t. They have sparring, they're very flexible (I was sort of worried I'd get some crazy strict instructor who would yell at me if I needed to change a class) and down to earth people. They were also very family oriented which I loved to see.

I was also very surprised (mostly from preconceptions I had regarding reading some posts on these and other forums - probably regarding training at the temple?) that the guy doing the one on one with me was showing me the application for every stance and form (I may have the terminology wrong here..) that we did.

I'm not completely concerned about the politics or the fact that the forms are changed or whatever, I realise I'm not training in china and for my purpose (and assuming I'm walking into it with no prior research) I'm getting just what I wanted - a great workout with some practical (practical enough) self defense skills (mainly concerned about this for my children.)

I went in there expecting everyone to be doing flying kicks and windmills with no sparring classes or anything, and I was pleasantly surprised.

I haven't signed a contract yet, as I've only gotten an extremely small taste of the class, but since they have the 1 month trial I'll be going a few times a week to get a better feel for the school before I commit. I'm really hoping it's more of the same through the rest of this trial, because I was very impressed by the school and the students/teachers.

@PlumDragon - Thanks for the offer, if I find after my trial is up that Wah Lum is not for me, I'll definitely exhaust you as a resource on those other two schools.

@Everyone else - Thank you all for the comments, they were very insightful.

Hopefully I'll be around here quite a bit longer!

[gunglihchuan]

I believe that they are few things anyone has to consider before committing to a Martial arts system.
I studied I at two Wah Lum schools for both less than a year. I believe that the most important thing about Wah Lum that committed prosective students do not know are three things.
The system is huge about 40 to 50 Hand forms alone.
The system does not teach its version of the core Praying mantis material
until the very end or nearly the end of the training.
Most Wah Lum Sifus teach additional material such as Choy Li Fut.
This might not seem a concern for a student if the like and believe in their Sifu.
I truly believe however that if I student wants to really be able to use the techniques of the system, they should have I system in which they can practice all their Hand forms every week. If you have 40 to 50 Hand forms you will not be able to do this.
I also believe that the core forms of your system i.e. any form of Bak Tang Lang Chuan, Northern Praying mantis should be learned first. These forms are Crushing step, Bung Bu, Eight Elbows, Bah Zhao, and Lan Jie Chuan, Intercepting and Deflecting Fist.
In Tachi Tang Lang Chuan Eight Elbows and Lan Jie Chuan are taught later in the system. Eight Elbows is intermediate, while Lan Jie Chuan is advanced but bung bu is taught at the begining not at the end of the training i.e. nine years into your training.
Lastly Wah Lum Sifus usually teach a lot of additional material such as Choy li fut so your 50 hand forms may become 60.
In conclusion I am not saying that Wah Lum is bad but it is not for everyone and It is high matainance in regard the amount of its material.
I would look for a system that has no more than 15 hand forms. Ask your perspective Sifus about this. If they are reasonable they should be polite and answer you.

[Abica]

I do see how those concerns would be very real for anybody who is really into kung fu and already has a firm grasp on the foundational stuff.

Keeping in mind I haven't done martial arts in a decade, and when I did it was TKD, most of the simple balance building and deep breathing stuff is fundamental before I move on to anything else.

I have intentions of using Wah Lum as a base and then moving on to Wing Chun or some JKD once my 6 month contract is up, if I choose to sign it. Right now I'm just interested in building a solid foundation that will allow me to move to any CMA fairly easily, as I have a feeling all of them will have similar stuff. Presently, I'm just going to make the most of the training I receive, and if it surpasses my expectations consistently throughout my trial and long term contract, I may renew my contract there as well.

Right now I'm getting ready for my second brutal trial day, and I'm sort of wondering if maybe I shouldn't have scheduled them on consecutive days. :p

Here's to hoping my legs hold out!

[Chop Socki]

Abica -

I'm glad your introduction to Wah Lum has gone well. Regardless of where you wind up, it's nice to hear from someone with a good understanding of what they want to get out of their training.

Much of the information people have already shared with you here is factually accurate, though here and there a bit of 'interpretation' has snuck in. I'd be a fool to pretend that I don't have my own opinions as well, but perhaps I can provide a bit of 'counter-spin' to a few of the comments that will give you more to think about.

Wah Lum is indeed very rich; as a traditional system with hundreds of years of history behind it, it has benefitted from its many contributors and now comprises a large number of basic techniques, as well as hand forms, weapon forms, multi person forms, etc. In my mind, that's a clear win when interpreted as follows: Early on, every Wah Lum student studies the same basic material that gives them a strong foundation as it improves balance, flexibility and strength. Later, the breadth of the system offers them the opportunity to customize their training to focus on things that suit their interests, body style, etc. A Wah Lum student shouldn't be thinking 'oh man, how will I ever master hundreds of forms, let alone find the time to practice them all?!?', but rather, 'I really like 'x', and I'm fortunate to be a student in a style that offers many opportunities to learn more about it over years of study'. Martial arts is not a board game where you move from beginning to end and 'win' by learning all the material. In fact, I have never encountered a Wah Lum sifu - and at one time or another, I suspect I've met just about all of them who have been active during my time in the system - who enforces a particular pace or requires testing at specific intervals. In that sense, regardless of the number of forms listed in the student handbook, Wah Lum has as many - or as few - forms to learn as you want.

Finally, to a great extent, every school in every style is strongly influenced by the skills and interests and beliefs of its instructors. While the Wah Lum system is very well laid out with regards to its curriculum, each sifu has their own unique knowledge and experience to draw on. In some cases, that might translate into material from other systems, in other cases, it might affect stylistic movements or interpretations of techniques. If you believe, as I do, that the lifeblood of a school is tied to the willingness of its students and teachers to share their knowledge and skills then again, this can't be seen as anything but a plus.

Again, good luck to you Abica, wherever your journey may lead you, and please, pardon my novel! :p

- CS

[Yao Sing]

Sifu Eric is a good teacher and Wah Lum is a good style/school for getting in shape and learning the basics of traditional Chinese Kung Fu.

Wah Lum is a hybrid style and is a little different from the standard Northern Mantis schools so if you're looking for purity (if there is such a thing) and lineage is important to you then look elsewhere.

Sounds to me that it fits the bill based on your original post of your expectations. I'm not on here much these days and I'm no longer in the system but I generally give a fair answer to any questions and am not too biased either way so ask away.

Tell your teacher David Scott says Ni Hao.

[yu shan]

If exercise is what you seek, then by all means join the Wah Lum school. Along with getting a good workout you will more than likely make some good friends. There is always a nice camaraderie within the school and among the WL schools. There is a healthy atmosphere full of positive energy, and the teacher is a good guy. WL has more than enough to get you fit and to keep you busy. One month trial is pretty awesome, and if money is no issue I say go for it.

[Citong Shifu]

Sifu Eric is a good teacher and Wah Lum is a good style/school for getting in shape and learning the basics of traditional Chinese Kung Fu.

Wah Lum is a hybrid style and is a little different from the standard Northern Mantis schools so if you're looking for purity (if there is such a thing) and lineage is important to you then look elsewhere.

Sounds to me that it fits the bill based on your original post of your expectations. I'm not on here much these days and I'm no longer in the system but I generally give a fair answer to any questions and am not too biased either way so ask away.

Tell your teacher David Scott says Ni Hao.


They should just advertise it as "MOK GAR".

[Yao Sing]

They should just advertise it as "MOK GAR".

Why is that, you thinks it's predominately Mok Gar?

Popular opinion says CLF but it doesn't match up with any CLF I've done elsewhere. Very southern though which is why I've been wanting to see more Lama from the NY guys. The short clip of CTS in the apartment looks very Wah Lum.

[Citong Shifu]

Why is that, you thinks it's predominately Mok Gar?

Popular opinion says CLF but it doesn't match up with any CLF I've done elsewhere. Very southern though which is why I've been wanting to see more Lama from the NY guys. The short clip of CTS in the apartment looks very Wah Lum.


You very well could be right. I was just going by Chans family style background. And, we cant ignore the kicking style of mok gar. It seems to look mok gar'ish to me, or I could say, looks nothing like mantis. Since you mentioned CLF, I can see a lil of that in there too, especially straight form, 18 elbow and lok low 1 & 2. Probably the others as well, but these sets really look CLF. Oh well, Chans made a name for himself. Guess thats all that matters.... TODAY....

Take Care.
Ron

[mantid1]

All the average person would have to do is study some traditional mantis and the ten (or 12) roads of tan tui and you can clearly see how the system was developed. If you cant figure it out from there well......

Is there some southern stuff in there? Sure there is.....no big deal. The guy lived in southern China and Hong Kong.

I dont know why people always get so concerned about wl and where it came from or what it is. Why worry so much about the system.......I read a saying one time that may apply: "The Style doesnt make the Master famous. The Master makes the style famous!

[B-Rad]

Why is that, you thinks it's predominately Mok Gar?
I remember quite awhile ago when I used to read the cyberkwoon forums from time to time, someone had mentioned Wah Lum and Mok Gar being popular in the same village, and that Mok Gar technique may have been adopted into Wah Lum.

[Citong Shifu]

All the average person would have to do is study some traditional mantis and the ten (or 12) roads of tan tui and you can clearly see how the system was developed. If you cant figure it out from there well......

Is there some southern stuff in there? Sure there is.....no big deal. The guy lived in southern China and Hong Kong.

I dont know why people always get so concerned about wl and where it came from or what it is. Why worry so much about the system.......I read a saying one time that may apply: "The Style doesnt make the Master famous. The Master makes the style famous!


Who cares what the average person would have to do! I spent six years in wah lum, six years of PAYING tuition, my money. I think I have the right to be concerned. I wanted to learn mantis. WL is always advertised as mantis this and mantis that, but I know the truth, thats why I and many other people quit the organization. If you like wl and it meets your standards, great. Yes, i've heard that quote, but where does it say mislead your art/style and take advantage of the AVERAGE person.

I will never believe in wl, regardless of what any wl member thinks or has to say about the validity of the art. I've been there and done it. I dont think anyone is disputing Chans martial art knowledge, just his mantis style that so many average people sign up for and later find out that its far from what they wanted in the first place....

[mantid1]

Well, if people are mislead that is because of their own stupidity. The name of the style is Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantis Kung Fu. Tam Tui being named first because it plays the bigger role in the system. Norhtern Praying mantis being named second because it plays a much smaller role in the sytem.....but it did play a role and out of respect is included in the name.

What is so hard to figure out about that? Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantiis kung Fu......Can people not read the words Tam Tui?

It states in the hand book that it is a mix. Students get that when they join. On the front of the hand book it says Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis kung fu. Students get this information the first day they join.

If a student cant figure this out then they are the one with the problem.

For the people eluding to the fact that wl isnt a fighting style....they may have a point....but lets see some vid of some actual full contact fighting from their students. Not just drills or prearranged self defense demos....actual fighting...no light contact. They should be able to show their stuff included kicking to the legs...take downs and at least a little ground work. If they cant produce that information....then maybe they should stop worrying about other styles being "a fighting style".

Citong, what will you do when your students do research and find out that the "duan" ranking system is not traditional.....what will they think....they may never believe in you no matter what other students think....

I dont have a problem with you citong...Im sure your a great guy...just trying to make my point as clearly as possible

[Citong Shifu]

Well, if people are mislead that is because of their own stupidity. The name of the style is Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantis Kung Fu. Tam Tui being named first because it plays the bigger role in the system. Norhtern Praying mantis being named second because it plays a much smaller role in the sytem.....but it did play a role and out of respect is included in the name.

What is so hard to figure out about that? Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantiis kung Fu......Can people not read the words Tam Tui?

It states in the hand book that it is a mix. Students get that when they join. On the front of the hand book it says Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis kung fu. Students get this information the first day they join.

If a student cant figure this out then they are the one with the problem.

For the people eluding to the fact that wl isnt a fighting style....they may have a point....but lets see some vid of some actual full contact fighting from their students. Not just drills or prearranged self defense demos....actual fighting...no light contact. They should be able to show their stuff included kicking to the legs...take downs and at least a little ground work. If they cant produce that information....then maybe they should stop worrying about other styles being "a fighting style".

Citong, what will you do when your students do research and find out that the "duan" ranking system is not traditional.....what will they think....they may never believe in you no matter what other students think....

I dont have a problem with you citong...Im sure your a great guy...just trying to make my point as clearly as possible


I have nothing against you either and I'm sure your a great person as well, but I've heard all the explanations concerning wah lum. Matter of fact, I still have the handbooks. It doesnt change the fact that Chans wah lum mantis is not wl mantis.... I guess your right, its the peoples fault. Our duan system, I have told everyone of my student that its not traditional, as well as, people who interview at my school. I've let everyone know that its used for modern business and international ranking. They make their own choice after that. BUT, I do not let them assume or hide what my school style is about, 100%. I will not repeat my wl days. I know how it made me feel before I quit, I will not treat others the same way.

I've just heard all there is about wl and there explanations on why and how the style is or was formed. We all know the all mantis styles are mixed styles, but the fact is, when I learned 7 star, I learned mantis, when I learn 6 harmony, I learned mantis, when I learned wl, I didnt learn mantis.

I'm not to offend you or anyone else on the boards. I'm glad you enjoy the art. I wish you the best of luck with your training, honestly. But, wl to me was a BIG waste of my time, as far as, learning mantis. Which is what I wanted in the first place. I know, my fault. i've moved on, but still feel the same about that style...

[mantid1]

Well, lets just hope people take the time to read the name before they join.

WL has never been promoted to me as 100% mantis....not even close.

I think some people may join wl because they have no other options for mantis in their area.....then when they do get the chance to study a more pure form of mantis wl automatically becomes the bad guy.....even after they gave the student an opportunity to learn.

I would be willing to bet that no instructor in wl would tell you that wl is 100% pure mantis....they would tell you the history and that tells it all.

Its a shame you feel like you wasted your time.....I would like to thing you learned something. Much of the blame could go with your instructor.

Have a good day

[Citong Shifu]

Well, lets just hope people take the time to read the name before they join.

WL has never been promoted to me as 100% mantis....not even close.

I think some people may join wl because they have no other options for mantis in their area.....then when they do get the chance to study a more pure form of mantis wl automatically becomes the bad guy.....even after they gave the student an opportunity to learn.

I would be willing to bet that no instructor in wl would tell you that wl is 100% pure mantis....they would tell you the history and that tells it all.

Its a shame you feel like you wasted your time.....I would like to thing you learned something. Much of the blame could go with your instructor.

Have a good day

I agree with you on this post. But, when I started wl in the early 90's it was being promoted as pure mantis, not with just my teacher but many of the wl sifu's I was around throughout the years. Your right, wl is not promoted as actual wl mantis anymore. This is primarily due to people finding out the arts real roots. Yes, I was limited in my area at that time, but I could have went outside the area and trained in the art that I really wanted in the first place. And, reading the name doesn't mean anything. Schools have been using names of this and that while teaching something completely different for years.

I understand your loyalty to wl, I used to have it too. Furthermore, I have no ill thoughts or feelings about those who train in wl, just a discouraging time in my life.

Yes, I learned alot of things while in wl, I also learned alot of bad habbits which hindered my growth within the cma. I was lucky not to have damaged my hips and knee's like some of the others, but I'm sure thats not limited to just wl... I feel that my potential early on was ignored by the wl teachers and the $$$$$$$ was much more important... Which is not just limited to wl, but my experience within there style... It could have been my teacher, dont know. He really had a great reputation within the art, hmmm... Nontheless, I have no problem with what wl is teaching and wish the wl members well. Like I said, I trained in the early 90's, things were a little different then or at least at the particular school I attended...

Good Luck.

[Abica]

If I may chime in from the perspective of a kung fu newbie once again, when I was first researching kung fu schools in my area, I had a very hard time finding the schools I wanted (wing chun or jkd). Instead I found very few others teaching things like "So Rim Kung Fu" and of course "Wah Lum Kung Fu". The main reason I went for Wah Lum (keeping in mind I'm still very new to the school, and am only on my third trial class tonight) was only because it was closer.

The website and most of the information I could find on Wah Lum simply billed it as "Kung Fu" for lack of a less generic and buzzwordy term I suppose. In fact, the only places I've seen it billed as "Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu" was on the one of 3 total wl clips I could find on youtube, showing some students at a competition or something, on here in very few places (most people on these boards seem to really know what they're doing, so it's obvious why the style isn't expanded far beyond the wl acronym much) and in a very small font on the wl school sites, and even then it's only on the front page (at least for my local school, I don't recall what the temple's site has).

For instance, here is the explanation of the "Kung Fu" taught at my local school (or I guess in general?): http://www.wahlumdenver.com/kungfu.php

A quick search over the page reveals no mention of the words "mantis", "tam tui" or even "northern".

This leads me to believe that the schools are geared more towards people who just want to learn SOME CMA period. It's not that the expanded name is hidden anywhere, but from a marketing perspective, why would the schools slather it around? Those long hardcore sounding names just give the impression that the school is super traditional and that you'll get caned if you can't keep up with the class or if you're not doing a form correctly (at least to me.. this aspect is the main reason I did research into the schools in the first place!)

The majority of prospective students are likely interested in learning for "self defense", "fitness" or because the term kung fu is abound in movies where there is no mention made of the fact that there are really a vast amount of different styles. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that most people joining kung fu simply aren't aware that there are styles at all.

Thanks again to everyone who's replied to this thread so far. Reading the replies are really interesting to me, regardless of the discussion content. Everyone's opinion is getting taken into account, as I someday (many years from now) plan on being very serious about the cma I take.

I'm also hyped that so many of the oldbies here have taken the time to reply to this thread. I've gone through the history of these boards and have read many posts from years ago, so it's exciting to see you guys are all still around.

@Yao Sing: I'll be sure to tell him when I next see him!

@mantid1: I'm not sure what it is, but I like your whole attitude. I've come across a number of your posts and even though I don't know you I felt fairly sad when I read http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697738&postcount=19 (a silly as I'm sure it sounds, however I was elated that you chose not to close up shop just yet, I hope this is still the case). I appreciate having your insight in this thread, though that's not to say that I appreciate the other replies any less. ;)

I'm glad that there are so many individual opinions on this subject, it's great food for thought.

[Citong Shifu]

If I may chime in from the perspective of a kung fu newbie once again, when I was first researching kung fu schools in my area, I had a very hard time finding the schools I wanted (wing chun or jkd). Instead I found very few others teaching things like "So Rim Kung Fu" and of course "Wah Lum Kung Fu". The main reason I went for Wah Lum (keeping in mind I'm still very new to the school, and am only on my third trial class tonight) was only because it was closer.

The website and most of the information I could find on Wah Lum simply billed it as "Kung Fu" for lack of a less generic and buzzwordy term I suppose. In fact, the only places I've seen it billed as "Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu" was on the one of 3 total wl clips I could find on youtube, showing some students at a competition or something, on here in very few places (most people on these boards seem to really know what they're doing, so it's obvious why the style isn't expanded far beyond the wl acronym much) and in a very small font on the wl school sites, and even then it's only on the front page (at least for my local school, I don't recall what the temple's site has).

For instance, here is the explanation of the "Kung Fu" taught at my local school (or I guess in general?): http://www.wahlumdenver.com/kungfu.php

A quick search over the page reveals no mention of the words "mantis", "tam tui" or even "northern".

This leads me to believe that the schools are geared more towards people who just want to learn SOME CMA period. It's not that the expanded name is hidden anywhere, but from a marketing perspective, why would the schools slather it around? Those long hardcore sounding names just give the impression that the school is super traditional and that you'll get caned if you can't keep up with the class or if you're not doing a form correctly (at least to me.. this aspect is the main reason I did research into the schools in the first place!)

The majority of prospective students are likely interested in learning for "self defense", "fitness" or because the term kung fu is abound in movies where there is no mention made of the fact that there are really a vast amount of different styles. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that most people joining kung fu simply aren't aware that there are styles at all.

Thanks again to everyone who's replied to this thread so far. Reading the replies are really interesting to me, regardless of the discussion content. Everyone's opinion is getting taken into account, as I someday (many years from now) plan on being very serious about the cma I take.

I'm also hyped that so many of the oldbies here have taken the time to reply to this thread. I've gone through the history of these boards and have read many posts from years ago, so it's exciting to see you guys are all still around.

@Yao Sing: I'll be sure to tell him when I next see him!

@mantid1: I'm not sure what it is, but I like your whole attitude. I've come across a number of your posts and even though I don't know you I felt fairly sad when I read http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697738&postcount=19 (a silly as I'm sure it sounds, however I was elated that you chose not to close up shop just yet, I hope this is still the case). I appreciate having your insight in this thread, though that's not to say that I appreciate the other replies any less. ;)

I'm glad that there are so many individual opinions on this subject, it's great food for thought.

Abica,
Sorry for the undesirable post that I have written pertaining to wah lum. This was just my experience within my old school. My purpose was not to turn anyone away from the wah lum art, I was just venting out loud. I'm glad you'r having a great time in wl, thats what its suppost to be all about. Sounds like your school is a great match for you...

Best of luck.

[Abica]

Abica,
Sorry for the undesirable post that I have written pertaining to wah lum. This was just my experience within my old school. My purpose was not to turn anyone away from the wah lum art, I was just venting out loud. I'm glad you'r having a great time in wl, thats what its suppost to be all about. Sounds like your school is a great match for you...

Best of luck.

Citong,

I understand. I actually really valued your comments rather than getting discouraged at all from them. As I've said, wl is going to be my base, and eventually I have intentions of expanding beyond a single style (I've always admired the JKD philosophy in this regard), so real information regarding what I'm actually learning now is still useful to me. When I go to branch out, I'd rather know that what I have learned isn't the definitive mantis' or something.

As a base, I'm just trying to get more out of the fitness aspects from wl, for instance balance and endurance etc. However, once styles matter to me all of these replies will start popping up in my head.

Your venting is much appreciated.

[mantid1]

Citong

I also was able to learn a little wl in the early 90's....I find it funny that it was never promoted as a pure mantis system. I was never mislead in any way. In fact I was able to spend time with the grand master of the system......he never tried to promote it to me as a pure mantis style. He never tried to convince me that it was the best fighting style or never mentioned his fighting ability. What he did tell me (loosly translated) over and over is that if you train hard you stay healthy and have a better life because of the good health.

As you said your instructor may have been promoting it in the wrong way. But, you will have issues like this in any type of big organization.

My point is with this post is that even if I met somone from another race that I thought may have treated me bad I would try not to talk in a negative way about the entire race of people. I make my decisions on an individual basis. So, you may have come across a bad apple or so......but that doesnt mean they are al bad.

If we want to talk about money lets use the guy from denver as and example. I am sure he charges more than the average instructer would in home town America. But, can you imagine what kind of rent and over head he has to pay in his area? It has to be through the roof! If students want a nice facility, in a convienient location with enough space to train......well the students will have to pay for that luxury or the instructor could not afford to stay in business.

Abica

Thanks for you kind words. I am happy you can still think highly of me after reading my posts.....I can come off as an a$$ from time to time:)

Yep, I decided to keep going for a while. Things have settled down a bit and I have gotten some dedicated students in the last year. My san shou class has picked up a little also.....seems like some people still do want to fight. But it seems that there are still only about 10% of my student population who are interested in taking the bumps and bruises associated with the fighting....cant say I blame them.

Sounds like you know what you want and I do encourage you to look at different styles and training methods while you train in wl.....there are a lot of great things out there. Just because you look at different options doesnt mean you have to give up what you have if you like it.....cross training isnt such a bad thing as long as you know what you want, stay focused and out of politics.

Good luck

[yu shan]

I joined WL in 1990, had some good experiences and some bad. I`d have to say the good totally outweighed the bad. But I rode it out for 11 years and moved on like Citong. I learned a lot while their that is for sure, but as I matured I had a longing to learn an area of the art that WL did not provide. And that is OK, I just moved on and now I`m happy with my training. I have not forgotten my WL material it was good then and is good now. Sure there is a southern influence but there is Mantis technique all thru the WL forms.

Abica, it is really a no brainer, the school is close to you and you can afford it. The teacher is a good man so I know you will not be ripped off like some of us. WL will be great for starters, heck I enjoyed my 11 years and I do not think it was a waste of time. It got me started on a great journey and definitely opened doors for me. Good luck.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

I also was able to learn a little wl in the early 90's....I find it funny that it was never promoted as a pure mantis system. I was never mislead in any way. In fact I was able to spend time with the grand master of the system......he never tried to promote it to me as a pure mantis style. He never tried to convince me that it was the best fighting style or never mentioned his fighting ability. What he did tell me (loosly translated) over and over is that if you train hard you stay healthy and have a better life because of the good health.

As you said your instructor may have been promoting it in the wrong way. But, you will have issues like this in any type of big organization.

My point is with this post is that even if I met somone from another race that I thought may have treated me bad I would try not to talk in a negative way about the entire race of people. I make my decisions on an individual basis. So, you may have come across a bad apple or so......but that doesnt mean they are al bad.

If we want to talk about money lets use the guy from denver as and example. I am sure he charges more than the average instructer would in home town America. But, can you imagine what kind of rent and over head he has to pay in his area? It has to be through the roof! If students want a nice facility, in a convienient location with enough space to train......well the students will have to pay for that luxury or the instructor could not afford to stay in business.

Abica

Thanks for you kind words. I am happy you can still think highly of me after reading my posts.....I can come off as an a$$ from time to time:)

Yep, I decided to keep going for a while. Things have settled down a bit and I have gotten some dedicated students in the last year. My san shou class has picked up a little also.....seems like some people still do want to fight. But it seems that there are still only about 10% of my student population who are interested in taking the bumps and bruises associated with the fighting....cant say I blame them.

Sounds like you know what you want and I do encourage you to look at different styles and training methods while you train in wl.....there are a lot of great things out there. Just because you look at different options doesnt mean you have to give up what you have if you like it.....cross training isnt such a bad thing as long as you know what you want, stay focused and out of politics.

Good luck

Ok, WL is graet! :D

[mantid1]

There are many great styles out there...and I am sure what citong teaches is also a great style.

[Yao Sing]

I've heard all the explanations concerning wah lum. Matter of fact, I still have the handbooks. It doesnt change the fact that Chans wah lum mantis is not wl mantis....

So where does your insight into WL mantis come from that you can state as fact that MC's mantis is not the same? And also, can you put me in touch with that source?


BUT, I do not let them assume or hide what my school style is about, 100%.

I was at the Temple in the early 90's and I never saw any evidence of hiding the origin of the style. This is one of those myths perpetuated by frustrated ex-students like the one about the training damaging knees. Just not true at all.


but the fact is, when I learned 7 star, I learned mantis, when I learn 6 harmony, I learned mantis, when I learned wl, I didnt learn mantis.

If you define Mantis by the forms taught then I can see your point but WL has Mantis moves and principles spread across most of what's taught. I'm really surprised it's not more evident to you after studying other more mainstream branches of Mantis.


I agree with you on this post. But, when I started wl in the early 90's it was being promoted as pure mantis, not with just my teacher but many of the wl sifu's I was around throughout the years.

Like I said, I was there at the Temple around that time and I've always known it as a hybrid system although heavy on the Mantis for marketing purposes. I don't recall anyone claiming it to be pure Mantis. The name, the handbook, it's all there right out in the open.


Yes, I learned alot of things while in wl, I also learned alot of bad habbits which hindered my growth within the cma. I was lucky not to have damaged my hips and knee's like some of the others, but I'm sure thats not limited to just wl...

Everyone likes to throw these claims around yet when pressed nobody can provide evidence that it's true. I have a bad right knee but I slammed that in 2 different motorcycle accidents long before training in WL. I did make it worse by showing off doing a move in 36 Hands.

DW was a power lifter in High School and was squatting some serious weight considering his size. Think that had an affect on his knees or was it the WL training?

There are others but I don't want to publicly state where their knee problems may have come from.

How many guys in a physically active sport end up with joint problems when they reach their 40s?

You know there are guys with 15+ years in WL without knee and hip problems?

Sorry, I just haven't seen any of these claims turn out to be true. Most of the time they're just repeating what they've heard. Sorry, this is something of a pet peeve of mine.


It could have been my teacher, dont know. He really had a great reputation within the art, hmmm... Nontheless, I have no problem with what wl is teaching and wish the wl members well. Like I said, I trained in the early 90's, things were a little different then or at least at the particular school I attended...

SC was your teacher based on what I recall of your past posts. All in all the more I see, and learn, of the more mainstream NPM the more I see of it in WL. But if you're looking for purity of lineage then you might want to look somewhere else.

[Citong Shifu]

So where does your insight into WL mantis come from that you can state as fact that MC's mantis is not the same? And also, can you put me in touch with that source?



I was at the Temple in the early 90's and I never saw any evidence of hiding the origin of the style. This is one of those myths perpetuated by frustrated ex-students like the one about the training damaging knees. Just not true at all.



If you define Mantis by the forms taught then I can see your point but WL has Mantis moves and principles spread across most of what's taught. I'm really surprised it's not more evident to you after studying other more mainstream branches of Mantis.



Like I said, I was there at the Temple around that time and I've always known it as a hybrid system although heavy on the Mantis for marketing purposes. I don't recall anyone claiming it to be pure Mantis. The name, the handbook, it's all there right out in the open.



Everyone likes to throw these claims around yet when pressed nobody can provide evidence that it's true. I have a bad right knee but I slammed that in 2 different motorcycle accidents long before training in WL. I did make it worse by showing off doing a move in 36 Hands.

DW was a power lifter in High School and was squatting some serious weight considering his size. Think that had an affect on his knees or was it the WL training?

There are others but I don't want to publicly state where their knee problems may have come from.

How many guys in a physically active sport end up with joint problems when they reach their 40s?

You know there are guys with 15+ years in WL without knee and hip problems?

Sorry, I just haven't seen any of these claims turn out to be true. Most of the time they're just repeating what they've heard. Sorry, this is something of a pet peeve of mine.



SC was your teacher based on what I recall of your past posts. All in all the more I see, and learn, of the more mainstream NPM the more I see of it in WL. But if you're looking for purity of lineage then you might want to look somewhere else.

Yao Sing,
WL has always had mantis principles intermingled within the style. To me, that doesnt make it a mantis style. Injury to knees, etc. I seen it time and time again with WL students. Even my teacher, who was extremely talanted had extensive knee problems that developed after training in WL. All this really doesnt matter anyway. I spent many years in WL and have NO misunderstanding about the system. Even alot of the old timers have left WL to train and teach in other styles. WL is great for those who WANT that type of training. I hope WL continues to have good luck and open many more schools. I just dont buy into alot of there junk anymore. I have resources that contradict WL. I dont readily throw names out there. I tell everyone to research it like I did. "Because really, if one doesnt seek the truth it will never be found".... I'm not a WL'er anymore. I have nothing to gain by proving or disproving the style, but the info is out there for anyone who really wants to find it.

Wah Lum Power Never Goes Sour :D
Ron.

[Featherstone]

Interesting read, I have recently started studying under Sifu Cohen and I am enjoying it thus far and have had no issue's with my hips or knees. He is very adamant on proper poture when it comes to the knees and such and corrects you rather quickly when the footing is wrong etc.. Anyone have any infor on Bruce?

[18elders]

How is Bruce doing? I haven't seen him in a long time. Is his school still in the same location as it always was?
Tell him Steve from Clearwater says hello.

[Featherstone]

yep, still in down town. He's a bit frazzled with us, but he is doing well. Classes arent what they used to be I guess. I'll let him know you say hello!

[yu shan]

Steve and I use to train periodically up their in New Port Wrinkle. Had some good times with ole Bruce. He is not associated with Wah Lum anymore is he?Maybe I`ll talk Steve into dropping by for a visit next time I`m in Tampa.

[Featherstone]

if I am correct he had a parting of the way's so to speak! That would be cool if y'all c'mon by, I'm sure Bruce would more then welcome the visit. There are still a few oldies around, or at least seniors to me.

[Citong Shifu]

if I am correct he had a parting of the way's so to speak! That would be cool if y'all c'mon by, I'm sure Bruce would more then welcome the visit. There are still a few oldies around, or at least seniors to me.


Wah Lum Power Never Goes Sour! :D

At least that was the saying back in the day. Is anyone still using this phrase? Or, the WL hand shake (with the hook)?

Does anyone here know if Chan still has his system copyright or patent? Just curious if people are still being persued legally if they teach WL outside of the U.S. WL Temple in Florida?

Cya's
Ron

[yu shan]

"Never goes sour", never heard it but I have heard "parting of the ways" plenty of times.

[Citong Shifu]

"Never goes sour", never heard it but I have heard "parting of the ways" plenty of times.

OOPS! I remember hearing that a time or two as well (parting ways) :D

Speaking of WL, I was going through some of my WL forms the other night and couldn't really remember what I liked about the style :confused:. I mean, I got to level 6 material, not much of 6th level but some. Nonetheless, I was trying to figure out what I liked about it, but nothing came to mind. However, I do like 36 hands and most of the weapons from spear on :D. I guess the problem I have with WL and doing their sets is, I dont really know where they come from!!!! You see, I was around when Chan would offer empty hand and weapon set seminars, he would literally combine this set with that set and make a new set. He did it all the time. We were even told after the seminar that this set was a creation of Chan Poi, of course, this was while we were getting ready to leave and get back home. Overall, I think this is my major problem. Where did this come from? Maybe I shouldn't be concerned with this, but I am. Obsesively at times. Oh well, I'm sure I'll get 100 reason why I shouldn't be concerned with origins since everything should be a blessing when you train kung fu :rolleyes:. Ok, talk to you all later.

Ron.

[Featherstone]

Bruce mention's it a lot how Chan would change this form or that form on a whim and then while testing he would yell that they do it wrong, it like this I never show you that... type stuff. Good times!:rolleyes:

[Citong Shifu]

Bruce mention's it a lot how Chan would change this form or that form on a whim and then while testing he would yell that they do it wrong, it like this I never show you that... type stuff. Good times!:rolleyes:


YEP!

That's the just of it!

The kicker about all this is, people see this in WL all the time yet over look it like it doesn't happen. Well, Who knows? Seems like a pattern if you ask me.

Ron.

[yu shan]

Citong, do you mean like the similarity between 4th form and Plumflower form?

[Citong Shifu]

Citong, do you mean like the similarity between 4th form and Plumflower form?

Um, I didnt learn the plumflower form. However, I did learn the plumflower staff set. What level is the plumflower form on?

[Yao Sing]

I've been out of it for quite awhile now so I don't know if anyone still says "Wah Lum power never goes sour" but it was thrown around a lot with a certain group during their time period.




[B][I][COLOR="Red"]I guess the problem I have with WL and doing their sets is, I dont really know where they come from!!!!

See, this to me is really odd. I don't see the value in where forms come from. I just don't rank forms all that high. What's critical in a style, any style, is the techniques.

Forms are a training aid and it's a good sign of knowing the material if you can create forms. As I see it they should be put together as needed. Worshiping forms is really focusing in the wrong direction and a big waste of time.

Seems like 99% seem to feel there's way too much focus on forms these days and that's what's dragging TCMA down.

A good, knowledgeable instructor should be able to create forms and drills on short order. The better the instructor the better the forms and drills. MC can do both, and I've seen him throw together drills on the spot.

That tells me he knows the techniques, which is more important (to me at least) then having the ability to recites sequences of movements by rote.

You seem like a good guy. I would suggest you focus on what counts, techniques, and not so much on choreography.

And yes, Bruce is out of the system. Been out for awhile. I think most of the guys from my time and before are gone.

[Featherstone]

Bruce is great at on the spot, let's do this tonight drilling. I love it and so does the rest of the class, keeps us on our toes. There are of course the basic drills, stances, kicks and punches. He's great at showing how the technique applies as well. On the down side, the class we have is fairly green, some with no previous martial experience what so ever, some who have never even thrown or been punched before. Wide mix of ages as well. I should be in class tomorrow eve if all goes as planned, my attendance has been spotty as of late due to work and family obligations.

[woliveri]

What's critical in a style, any style, is the techniques.

What's also critical in a style, IMO, is the Basics. I'm no longer in Mantis but in Bagua in Shanghai and I can attest the basics of this line of Bagua is tremendous. Hellatious work and more difficult than anything I've tried before. Basics are the "Gong" which build Qi, proper movement, harden the bones, etc.

From my point of view I think Wah Lum has good basics. They developed flexibilty, strength, and taught how to move.

I think this also is the purpose of Forms. To teach a student who has never studied martial arts how to move with Hand/Leg combinations.

Each one is a step built on the previous. The problem with Wah Lum is they didn't take the next step (at least not when I was there) of application training.

And of course, The nilly-willy Form creation and politics is why many left the system but also remember, in Wah Lum's early days, with Master Chan pasted on the front cover of Inside Kung-Fu, there was little else. Especially in central Florida so many of us had no other CMA sources.


Anyway, my 2 cents.

[mantid1]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.

[Citong Shifu]

I've been out of it for quite awhile now so I don't know if anyone still says "Wah Lum power never goes sour" but it was thrown around a lot with a certain group during their time period.





See, this to me is really odd. I don't see the value in where forms come from. I just don't rank forms all that high. What's critical in a style, any style, is the techniques.

Forms are a training aid and it's a good sign of knowing the material if you can create forms. As I see it they should be put together as needed. Worshiping forms is really focusing in the wrong direction and a big waste of time.

Seems like 99% seem to feel there's way too much focus on forms these days and that's what's dragging TCMA down.

A good, knowledgeable instructor should be able to create forms and drills on short order. The better the instructor the better the forms and drills. MC can do both, and I've seen him throw together drills on the spot.

That tells me he knows the techniques, which is more important (to me at least) then having the ability to recites sequences of movements by rote.

You seem like a good guy. I would suggest you focus on what counts, techniques, and not so much on choreography.

And yes, Bruce is out of the system. Been out for awhile. I think most of the guys from my time and before are gone.

Yao Sing,
I never said I worship forms. I think knowing the origin/s of any style/form is very important. Anyone can make up a form or a drill, that doesnt mean anything to me. This is the problem with martial arts today, everyone just makes up their own stuff. Does this show the instructors skills, not at all, I have two year students that can make up forms and drills, hmmmm :eek:.

Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wong with throwing forms/drills together when there beneficial or needed for a demo or something, but just to do it to make some cash, well, thats just chop suey....

Anyway, My training has surpassed anything WL had to offer so I'm ok with my art / origin obsession. People want to make up new drills, I'm all for it, people want to make up new forms, well, thats another story. Like my teacher told me, the old masters always made refinements to their style, when needed, but they never changed the entire drill, set, etc. They only found ways to make their art more "EFFICIENT" and updated drills to better enhance the workout, thus providing more skill to the participant. Other times, they would create their own drills or forms, but only after fully understanding their art at the highest levels. Never was it to profit financially.

All I was saying when I first started to respond to this thread is that I spent many years in WL, not 1, 2, or 3 years, but several. I think I know exactly what WL is and always will be.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.

Mantid1,
Let me put something together. I dont really video my classes, never had a reason to, but I'm sure I can put something together. Just to let you know, our sparring doesnt look like typical sparring. We dont trade back and forth thing like boxing, etc. Basically, the best way to explian it is like this, Applications but in a sparring format, lol, if that makes sense... I know this doesnt matter to you, you just want to see the sparring, but you wouldn't believe how many people think that sparring is trading punch, kicks, etc....

I believe 100% that people should use their art for self defense and its nice to hear you bring this point up for discussion. FYI, I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style, Efficiency and universal movement.

LOL, I need to figure out this utube thing too :D. Hopefully others will contribute to your post.

Ron

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.


I would like to see some of your sparring as well. It doesnt have to be your students, you can use footage your techniques. This should be fun... Hopefully the WL peeps on the board will contribute as well, I know the Pong Lai peeps will :D, they got some great stuff...

[Yao Sing]

What's also critical in a style, IMO, is the Basics.

That's pretty much what I meant when I said techniques. I was talking about the moves themselves having more importance than the choreography.


Yao Sing,
I never said I worship forms.

That's true and I never meant to imply that you do but in my opinion you hold them much higher than I think they deserve.

Don't get me wrong, I see the value in them especially the ones created by the masters but you have to realize at the time they were just teachers and good fighters.

I just think some people (not only you) go a little overboard with purity of forms and lineage. Yes both are important but not as much as some portray.

I've modified some traditional NPM forms and made them more Wah Lum like and if I ever get back to teaching then I intend to teach them that way.

I've been to a few different schools and styles in my life and I haven't found one yet that I agree with everything they teach. That's expected. Not everything is gold and that includes NPM. At least not for me.

What I do is an expression of myself and based on what I've learned over the years. There are moves in Wah Lum that I don't care for or believe to be especially useful so I file them away.

Just so you know, since you seem to feel that forms dictate the style, Wah Lum has Bung Bo and Luan Jie that possibly pre-date the ones you know. There might also be a Baat Jow but I've never inquired about it so I don't know.

So if it has the 3 core forms, with some others added over the years just like the other branches of NPM have done, then why wouldn't it be Mantis?

[Yao Sing]

I would like to see some of your sparring as well. It doesnt have to be your students, you can use footage your techniques. This should be fun... Hopefully the WL peeps on the board will contribute as well, I know the Pong Lai peeps will :D, they got some great stuff...

If I can find a partner or someone to work with I'll post up some video. Been wanting to get a critique of my modified sets anyhow (preferably honest opinions and not knee-jerk elitist snobbery).

[B-Rad]

Basically, the best way to explian it is like this, Applications but in a sparring format, lol, if that makes sense...
Do you mean like doing two person applications (kind of like one step drills) but in a freestyle format rather than pre-choreographed? Or do you just mean regular hard contact sparring but you pay more attention to using specific techniques you learned rather than doing your best kickboxer impression. Not sure I really understand...

[Citong Shifu]

Do you mean like doing two person applications (kind of like one step drills) but in a freestyle format rather than pre-choreographed? Or do you just mean regular hard contact sparring but you pay more attention to using specific techniques you learned rather than doing your best kickboxer impression. Not sure I really understand...


No, there not two person applications, well they are, but there not. We practice them in pairs as drills, one side does this and the other side does that, but in our sanda sparring its whatever each side does at any given time. Like free form sparring. Reaction vs. reaction, etc. Our goal is stop the other side from attacking. They move, we attack and vice versa (within reason. If nothing needs to be done than we do nothing. When action is required then we act). Its what they call sparring but not whats common today... The goal is to stop the other side from combo'ing, when they move, we shut them down, vice versa. The person with the most skill and understanding will always shut down or cut off the persons attack before they ever get started. Well thats the goal... We believe that fights only happen because the people fighting allow it to progress into a fight. Whe try to take the fight out of the fight. When I record some video footage it will probable make more sense. No, its not the Bruce Lee fight without fighting, lol...

Ron.

[woliveri]

Ron, on your website you have some missing words in your teacher's bio which makes it difficult to read.

[Citong Shifu]

If I can find a partner or someone to work with I'll post up some video. Been wanting to get a critique of my modified sets anyhow (preferably honest opinions and not knee-jerk elitist snobbery).


Yao Sing, I hear you brother. We all have our methods. Mine works great for me, just as yours for you... We're all trying to get to the same place, understanding...

LOL, oh I'm sure we're going to get the snobbery and much more. Its the way of the almighty forum, lol...

Ron.

[Citong Shifu]

Ron, on your website you have some missing words in your teacher's bio which makes it difficult to read.

I seen that. I have my website guy working on it, well, he's suppost to be... I am in the process of having a new website designed. Something more modern and interactive. It seems like the website thing always has something missing or just not there. Wish I could do myself, lol... Was there something you wanted me to answer?

Ron.

[woliveri]

no, I think I can catch the meaning, just wanted to give you a heads up in case you weren't aware.

[mantid1]

Citong

Well as I said before....my fighting isnt based on mantis....more like san shou. I think it is the most efficeint and fastest method to gain experience to defend yourself for a real fight.

Believe me when I tell you this...you dont want to see my guys fight. Most are guys in there late 30's or early 40's doing it because they like the physical contact and enjoy fighinting...not to worried about looking great and being world class fighters. They dont care if it is mantis or not....just what works for them.

The younger generation in my area arnt so interested in taking the lumps you can get while fighting.

I would love to seem some clips...but you said that you teach other styles than mantis but when you fight. You said:

" I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style"

If you pretty much approach the fighting in the same manner regardless of style why teach different styles? If you do this your fighting will not be close enough to mantis to be "mantis fighting" it is a mix. The ony thing you would get from teaching different styles is the forms.....no martial benefit at all and if your mantis students arnt learning fighting that isnt mantis specific...then they arnt learning mantis either.

I dont have a problem with that. I enjoy the forms myself. In fact Im not in the chinese arts for the fighting.....I think there are faster ways to become a fighter....muay thai....san shou...

When it comes to others posting video dont wast your time with drills or "techniques in a sparring format". To truly represent your style fighters should be geared up and go for it.....it can be controlled...safety should be the first concern....but that being said you should be able to go at it fairly fast and furious to represent your style using techniques that are clearly from a mantis based style.

There are more than enough clips out there with people trading off in drills....or the instructor knocking the crap out of a student with a pre arranged sequence that the instructor knows much better than the student.

A good example would be the guy on the forum asking advice about fighting a tai kwan do guy. It should be as real as possible with safety in mind...but no limitations like no kicking to the head or legs, no take downs etc...

If the guy really wanted to try out his mantis...he should have just fought and not ask for any pointers...no coachining allowed just use your stuff. That would give a great example.

I hope im not coming across with an attitude. Im sure you have a great school.

But, when it comes down to people talking about other schools if they are traditional or not I think the only way to prove it is to show the final product. If some one was saying the same things about your school I would chime in and say the same things on your behalf.

The knee problem issue...well do you would not believe the amount of people I have met who has had knee surgery....and never studied the arts a day in their lives.

As far as I am concerned....Im not so worried about fighting anymore. I just want to have a happy and healthy life.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Well as I said before....my fighting isnt based on mantis....more like san shou. I think it is the most efficeint and fastest method to gain experience to defend yourself for a real fight.

Believe me when I tell you this...you dont want to see my guys fight. Most are guys in there late 30's or early 40's doing it because they like the physical contact and enjoy fighinting...not to worried about looking great and being world class fighters. They dont care if it is mantis or not....just what works for them.

The younger generation in my area arnt so interested in taking the lumps you can get while fighting.

I would love to seem some clips...but you said that you teach other styles than mantis but when you fight. You said:

" I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style"

If you pretty much approach the fighting in the same manner regardless of style why teach different styles? If you do this your fighting will not be close enough to mantis to be "mantis fighting" it is a mix. The ony thing you would get from teaching different styles is the forms.....no martial benefit at all and if your mantis students arnt learning fighting that isnt mantis specific...then they arnt learning mantis either.

I dont have a problem with that. I enjoy the forms myself. In fact Im not in the chinese arts for the fighting.....I think there are faster ways to become a fighter....muay thai....san shou...

When it comes to others posting video dont wast your time with drills or "techniques in a sparring format". To truly represent your style fighters should be geared up and go for it.....it can be controlled...safety should be the first concern....but that being said you should be able to go at it fairly fast and furious to represent your style using techniques that are clearly from a mantis based style.

There are more than enough clips out there with people trading off in drills....or the instructor knocking the crap out of a student with a pre arranged sequence that the instructor knows much better than the student.

A good example would be the guy on the forum asking advice about fighting a tai kwan do guy. It should be as real as possible with safety in mind...but no limitations like no kicking to the head or legs, no take downs etc...

If the guy really wanted to try out his mantis...he should have just fought and not ask for any pointers...no coachining allowed just use your stuff. That would give a great example.

I hope im not coming across with an attitude. Im sure you have a great school.

But, when it comes down to people talking about other schools if they are traditional or not I think the only way to prove it is to show the final product. If some one was saying the same things about your school I would chime in and say the same things on your behalf.

The knee problem issue...well do you would not believe the amount of people I have met who has had knee surgery....and never studied the arts a day in their lives.

As far as I am concerned....Im not so worried about fighting anymore. I just want to have a happy and healthy life.


Mantid1,
Thats correct, I do other styles other than mantis. Where the difference lies is the amount of knowledge of techniques one get when learning the other styles. Lets say I just focus on the mantis. Mantis is known for the mantis claw/s correct. Now outside of the characteristic mantis claw, mantis has punches, palm strikes, finger strikes, grabs, etc. Tong Bei is primarily an open hand style that not only uses open hand techniques, but punches, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Long Fist, punches, open hand palm strikes, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Ziranmen, well, Ziranmen is more of a principle that teaches to use everything no matter the style (very, very, short and simple definition of the style). I've only discussed the hand work that makes each style characteristically different, I have even discussed the kicking, posture, stance work, etc of each style, but I can guarantee the same approach to training the styles and skills are the same, with the diiference being what are the characteristic movements or postures of each individual styles...

As you can see, this is why we approach fighting in the same manner as mantis vs. tong bei or tong bei vs. long fist. All styles share the exact same techniques, no matter the style. Mantis uses the mantis claw to grab, hook, claw, etc. Tong Bei uses its wide array of open hand techniques to do the same. As well as long fist. Heck, Tiger and Eagle claw styles use there characteristic claw postures to do the same. You see, thats why its all approached in the same manner.

And, being aggressive when sparring is not charateristic to any one style over another. Alot of styles today just dont show the standards and skills there suppost to be representing...

Once a person starts to define their movements they are already limited, blinding thenselves to what their style has to offer. In the old days kung fu masters learned a variety of kung fu styles, not just one. All the old famous masters where masters of several different styles. Believe that.

I understand your position on this subject and I see all the points your making. I used to ask myself the same questions. But, now, I've realized that the only person that can myself back is me.... So, I've gone forward making sure I obtain the understanding necessary to train all aspects of the cma...

Take care my friend.
Ron

[Chop Socki]

Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now... filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the 'one true system' whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I'll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn't entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn't wine that improves with age - I've seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the 'I honestly can't remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place' comments. When you follow that up with '...and I'm qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years', it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn't find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I've been a member for far more than 'several years' - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived 'traditionalism' of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I've made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now... filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the 'one true system' whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I'll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn't entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn't wine that improves with age - I've seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the 'I honestly can't remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place' comments. When you follow that up with '...and I'm qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years', it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn't find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I've been a member for far more than 'several years' - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived 'traditionalism' of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I've made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

- CS

LOL, I thought we were all discussing what we liked and disliked! Sure, I made some comments, thats how I feel. I'll state it again. WL to me is a waste of time! Nothing will change my mind. I know what I have now. I also know what I've had to go through to get where I'm at today. I have no hidden agenda. I have seen many WL people recently throughout my competition travels and there still doing the same things that I have mentioned and more. Dont get me wrong, I'm not talking about every WL student, but the majority represents the validity of my comments. Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself. I was there and I'm not the only one who feels the same way. WL has lost so many of its seniors throughout the last several years due to many of the reasons that have been discussed. Those are the facts. Enjoy your WL training, I hope the best for you, I really do. It was hard for me to accept the time and money I wasted too. Now I know. I found the value of my training elsewhere. I certainly dont feel I'm wsting my time now.

Take care. Best of luck.
Ron

[Chop Socki]

...I certainly dont feel I'm wasting my time now.

When all is said and done, that's all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

When all is said and done, that's all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

- CS

Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I've heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol.... From what I've heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron

[yu shan]

For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.

[Citong Shifu]

For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.

1400, wow! Thats alot of views.

[mantid1]

When Citong Shifu speaks....peopls listen!

:)

[Chop Socki]

Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I've heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol.... From what I've heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron

Citong Shifu -

I've been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I'm not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes... honestly, that's a tough one. As 'just one of the guys' who isn't necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between 'system-level' changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

When Citong Shifu speaks....peopls listen!

:)


I doubt that, lmao :D. I cant even get my children to listen to me :eek:.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Shifu -

I've been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I'm not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes... honestly, that's a tough one. As 'just one of the guys' who isn't necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between 'system-level' changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

- CS

Chop Sockie,
I was mainly talking about the changes in the curriculum since I've been gone, like little fan cha, say lok, etc. All in all, there's little changes here and there that wasn't curriculum when I was there. What is you name? I probably know you since you were there when Sean, Troy, Bob, & Tracey was around... Yea, I've seen alot of the other WL school outside of Orlando adding CLF, Hung Gar, etc to there curriculum. Just kinda curious about that. Chan normally didnt allow add ons to the program unless it was being taught seperately... Anyway, doesnt matter, I teach other styles too :D. Just back in my WL day, things were watched very close by Chan, he always knew what was going on, lol... He was something else, lol... Definitely had conviction!

Take care.
Ron

[Yao Sing]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

[Citong Shifu]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

Yao Sing, That makes alot of sense. Thats probably what I'm seeing. Yes, I have seen alot of wushu out of her these last several years, was wondering about that. Oh well, gotta go with the times... In todays commercial martial art business, as with all business, its a buyers market, choke, choke :). When I was coming up in the martial arts you bought (signed up) what was being sold. Now! People buy (sign up) in what they want!!!!! The buyers market, gotta love it... Its too bad that most of the public (the majority) cant see what there missing or giving up just to have what they want, when they want it :(. Anyway this is the world we live in today. All we can do is keep on push'n.

Regards.
Ron.

[Yao Sing]

I haven't seen the latest handbook but as far as I know all the curriculum changes were made by MC himself. He added some of the seminar sets and moved things around.

I practically jumped a whole level when that happened but by that time I was in the "learn what fits you" stage. I never really followed the curriculum anyhow for most of my time there.

MC would just grab a couple of us senior guys and say we were going to start learning X. Some of the seminars he would teach only half of the set then later on at the Temple he would teach us the rest of the set.

Anyhow, I would expect Mimi to put her stamp on the style someday and add one of her own creation.

I never got much insight into any of the branch schools so I'll leave that to others to discuss. I do know MC leaves quite a lot of flexibility in what and how you teach, just as long as you stick to the basic curriculum.

Non-Wuh Lum material can be taught but can not be more than 40% of the school.
That's an awful lot of flexibility right there.

[woliveri]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

Good Lord... :eek::eek:

Well, there you go. There's no way Mimi can fill Master Chan's shoes, especially if she's persuing an acting career at the same time.

I was there in 84 when Master Chan was still teaching classes and again later during the Sean, Tracy days. "He" (MC) was the draw and to train at a Temple. Man, it was great to go in the mornings. The smell of the incense, the atmosphere of the Temple, Master Chan yelling at this or that. Ha ha...

Seminars with Shek Kin, Lee Koon Hung, Mok Poi On, Brendon Lai.

Wah Lum Manual Picture:
http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/wlman1.jpg

Fond memories.

[yu shan]

Woli, I got to experience some of these fond memories as well, great pic btw.

[Yao Sing]

That pic is just before my time there but I do remember, and have trained with, most of the people shown. I moved to Florida end of 89 and saw the anniversary show, started a new job and bought a house beginning of 90 and started class at the Temple. Was there about 15 years (including having my own school) before fading off into the online forum wasteland.

Those were some fun days and I have no regrets. Could have been better, and I spoke up plus made some suggestions, but I was under no illusion it was something more than what was claimed.

It was pretty much what I was looking for and since I had quite a bit of previous training I knew exactly what was being offered. Guess that's why I don't have the animosity found amongst other ex-students.

There was a time when I almost went back to Kenpo because I was missing some aspects of the training, and I had my periods of complaining because things weren't EXACTLY how I felt they should be but all-in-all it was a good, positive experience.

[mantid1]

Ciitong

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a buyers market and has been for a long time. Anyone can open a school on the street corner...so there is a lot competition out there.

The way I look at it is if I have 100 students.....maybe 20 will be serious and want to do actual fighting.....out of those 20 maybe 3 or 4 will want the complete package....forms, drills, tradition etc. Out of those 3 or 4 maybe one will be around for longer than a few years. More thatn likely that one person will not be gifted physically or I will have to do a lot of work to overcome some type of mental issues with the student.

So, I figure I can let the not so serious ones (recreational Martial artists) pay the bills and let the serious have a chance at becoming martial artist. I dont sell out...I just dont expect as much out of the "recreational martial artists".

I figure I can produce more dedicated martial artists (than a person teaching a few people at a time) if I have have a bigger pool of recreational martial artist to pull from.

The old saying goes "It takes 1000 students to get one worthwhile instructor". The more people you have coming through the door the better chance you have a passing on your material.

[Citong Shifu]

Ciitong

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a buyers market and has been for a long time. Anyone can open a school on the street corner...so there is a lot competition out there.

The way I look at it is if I have 100 students.....maybe 20 will be serious and want to do actual fighting.....out of those 20 maybe 3 or 4 will want the complete package....forms, drills, tradition etc. Out of those 3 or 4 maybe one will be around for longer than a few years. More thatn likely that one person will not be gifted physically or I will have to do a lot of work to overcome some type of mental issues with the student.

So, I figure I can let the not so serious ones (recreational Martial artists) pay the bills and let the serious have a chance at becoming martial artist. I dont sell out...I just dont expect as much out of the "recreational martial artists".

I figure I can produce more dedicated martial artists (than a person teaching a few people at a time) if I have have a bigger pool of recreational martial artist to pull from.

The old saying goes "It takes 1000 students to get one worthwhile instructor". The more people you have coming through the door the better chance you have a passing on your material.

How true, how true! This is kinda where I'm at with my school. Sometimes I hear people use the phrase, sell out or other choice comments, but the fact still remains, this is a buyers market and if you want to persue the martial arts on a full-time basis then one better get with the program... I tell people all the time, I'm not a martial artist because I'm a teacher or own a ma school, lol... Its funny how people think. I have to remind people all the time or tell them for the first time that a martial artist desribes the individual and the way they live (loosely translated), not their title or material belongings (school owner), lol :confused:. Anywho, I'm getting tired of the wannabe traditionalist who claims everyone is a sell out. Most of us has a ma business, we're business men and martial artist... As you've said, we pull from recreational group and pass on the more indepth knowledge to those who appreciate it as much as we do.... Ranting, lol... Another sore spot....

Anyway, I have to admit. Regardless of what I think of WL as an art, I sure did have alot of fun while I was there. Crazy, crazy times.

Ron.

[Chop Socki]

Ah, curriculum changes, sorry, I misunderstood.

As others have already said, pretty much all of that is seminar related. For years Master Chan would teach seminars, but the things he taught never made it into the curriculum. I think people pushed back with the very reasonable complaint that went something like 'why should I pay for (and practice) something that I can't use to test?', and little by little, things that were initially introduced in seminars like Sil Fan Cha and Say Lok eventually made their way into the system. If it isn't obvious, these additions are limited to things introduced by Master Chan or, in rare cases, his top instructors: you'll never see someone testing for Wah Lum certification using a Choi Lai Fut form they learned in a seminar from Lee Koon Hung.

On a related note, many years ago Master Chan ran into a similar situation with clothing being sold at the Temple. He had expanded to so many variations of styles and colors for uniform shirts that it really defeated the purpose of having a uniform in the first place... to have everyone look... well, uniform. Even though he continued selling all sorts of things, he decreed that the 'standard' accepted uniform would be the black shirt with white letters... which was fine, until the purchases of everything else pretty much dropped off to nothing. Just like with the case for seminar material, people wondered why they should be expected to buy all sorts of Wah Lum logo shirts if they wouldn't be allowed to use them in class. I believe he eventually relented.

Hey... we're all still learning, right? ;)

- CS

[isol8d]

I'm way late to the thread, as it seems Abica is already training with Wah Lum in Denver.

There are a couple of YouTube vids of Wah Lum not listed as Wah Lum, posted by Asia Trend.... they are from Lunar New Years celebrations....

New Years 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po-iBZEo1qk)

Hopefully, if you're looking for info on the current Wah Lum style, you can see a little bit of it in the video.

[~Vicious Dragon]

didn't read the whole forum, but I am also in Denver, and I am going to check out the Wah Lum school next friday.
I have heard good things about that school, so i think i might join.