a couple of clips [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Dave P

08-19-2007, 02:16 AM

;):D its funny but it would seem from a couple of forums i visit that pb guys seem to have this ridgid view of wsl wing chun and that they are the inheritors of the system when i never said IT was wsl wing chun i was doing merely that i have learned wslvt via nino bernardo who himself states that he teaches nino bernardo wing chun as wsl is dead and i can only do cj wing chun because nino is the only one who can do nino wing chun but some people seem to think they are actually doing someone elses wing chun!!!! as nino said (because i cant say it any better) "the only person qualified to teach wsl wing chun is unfortunatley dead but i can show you what i think i learned from him" this comes from a guy who spent years training 4 hours a DAY with wong sifu not a few visits and a couple of seminars! it seems the ones who truly learned teach THIEIR STUFF ie:gary lam teaches glvt nino teaches nino bernardo wing chun and so on and so on while others who were shall we say less enlightened try and teach someone elses stuff???

Ok, consider it as a wordplay if you like. You use the same wordplay in your reply... As I mentioned WSL wing chun. I actually ment WSL lineage wing chun. Ofcourse the is Gary Lam WC, Philipp Bayer WC, David Peterson WC or Nino Bernardo WC... I 100% agree on this... as every teacher has his own flavour...

Concerning the PB guys that have a rigid view...We practice PB Ving Tsun and yes we are together with the other WSL lineage followers ( so you too) , inheritants of WSL's great view on the system. I may say that I am proud of that as we learn about this trough our own teachers... We are taught the teachings of our teachers teacher...But any person of this lineage may say so...

The critics I had were on the clips.. I could also say... Where is the WC...?
I have learned the system doestn't have any groundwork involved. Some systems added it later. (Especially ith the UFC time period) Some systems like to mix with BJJ and so. These clips show me a mixture where WC is hard to find... The mentioning of the WSL (lineage) WC system has arrised me some doubts as I may say...

YungChun

08-19-2007, 02:36 AM

Instead of saying where is the WCK or WCK brand X perhaps it would be more helpful to discuss what particular elements, techniques, applications, energy, position, movement, etc, we should be seeing, or should be part of the training <that isn't> and why...

Dave P

08-19-2007, 03:54 AM

I am sorry, but I have no experience with BJJ and groundfighting, neither with wrestling only with Ving Tsun. So I am not able to discuss that on this topic...:o

Wayfaring

08-19-2007, 05:26 AM

me and my brother had a day off work and was messing around in my garage just a little light chisau, sparring and rolling, also a clip of my son and my bro having a light roll, im of the wsl line (6 yrs) and roger gracie affiliated school (6 months)
flame away :D

I like your garage gym. Makes it convenient to get out and play around. You guys weren't going real hard or anything. I have to laugh at a couple of white boys + the radio version of 50 Cent in the first clip.

t_niehoff

08-19-2007, 07:23 AM

Ok, consider it as a wordplay if you like. You use the same wordplay in your reply... As I mentioned WSL wing chun. I actually ment WSL lineage wing chun. Ofcourse the is Gary Lam WC, Philipp Bayer WC, David Peterson WC or Nino Bernardo WC... I 100% agree on this... as every teacher has his own flavour...

This stems from seeing WCK differently than any other athletic activity/sport. No one would talk this way about boxing or wrestling or basketball. Lineage is who taught whom, not in how or what *you* do. You go to a golf pro to help *your* golf game, not to do his golf or play like him.

"Flavor" is another of the TMA buzzwords. In any functional atheltic activity/sport, everyone who "plays" the game will "play" it differently. The fundamentals of that activity are the same; how a person uses those fundamentals depends on their skill level, physical characteristics, talents, experience, etc.

Concerning the PB guys that have a rigid view...We practice PB Ving Tsun and yes we are together with the other WSL lineage followers ( so you too) , inheritants of WSL's great view on the system. I may say that I am proud of that as we learn about this trough our own teachers... We are taught the teachings of our teachers teacher...But any person of this lineage may say so...

This is what traditional guys don't "get" -- you inherit nothing. The only things that can be taught are the fundamental skills, and those only by someone who has learned and developed the fundamental skills themselves. That's it. When you learn golf or basketball or wrestling or boxing you are not being taught the "teachings of our teacher's teacher" -- what good athlete even thinks that way? Lineage is BS.

The critics I had were on the clips.. I could also say... Where is the WC...?
I have learned the system doestn't have any groundwork involved. Some systems added it later. (Especially ith the UFC time period) Some systems like to mix with BJJ and so. These clips show me a mixture where WC is hard to find... The mentioning of the WSL (lineage) WC system has arrised me some doubts as I may say...

Questions like "where is the WCK?" I think miss the point -- because they are based on an assumption on the part of the person asking the question as to what WCK "is" or "should be" (their "theory" of WCK). A better question is IMO: are they using in fighting those things that they are training to do? In other words, does their learning-training/practice-fighting correspond 1-to-1-to-1? If so, and they are geting good results, who can say they are wrong?

In my experience, the reality of fighting involves stand up (free movement), clinch (standing contact/grappling), and ground, and unless one side gets lucky or has a significant advantage in skill, it is very likely that the fight will involve these various aspects. If you are not prepared to deal with them, you will suffer. To be a good, well-rounded fighter, a person needs to be familiar with and skilled in all three aspects. When any stand-up fighter begins to take the other aspects into account in their training, it will change their game -- that's what happens to MT and boxers who do MMA, for instance. They can't do the same things the same way because by doing so it creates opportunites to be taken down. So they will , if they want to be successful, "adjust" their games accordingly. It is the same for WCK.

forever young

08-19-2007, 08:00 AM

I like your garage gym. Makes it convenient to get out and play around. You guys weren't going real hard or anything. I have to laugh at a couple of white boys + the radio version of 50 Cent in the first clip.

thanks for the compliments and re the white boys ;)

In my experience, the reality of fighting involves stand up (free movement), clinch (standing contact/grappling), and ground, and unless one side gets lucky or has a significant advantage in skill, it is very likely that the fight will involve these various aspects. If you are not prepared to deal with them, you will suffer. To be a good, well-rounded fighter, a person needs to be familiar with and skilled in all three aspects. When any stand-up fighter begins to take the other aspects into account in their training, it will change their game -- that's what happens to MT and boxers who do MMA, for instance. They can't do the same things the same way because by doing so it creates opportunites to be taken down. So they will , if they want to be successful, "adjust" their games accordingly. It is the same for WCK
bingo bango im my opinion :D since i started meeting guys from other 'systems' in an full contact scenario it has definately changed my wing chun altho i still train it in a "traditional" sense as well as mix it up :)

Instead of saying where is the WCK or WCK brand X perhaps it would be more helpful to discuss what particular elements, techniques, applications, energy, position, movement, etc, we should be seeing, or should be part of the training <that isn't> and why... this would be appreciated as while im sure we all know you cant learn from the 'tinternet it is always helpfull to get tips/hints and opinions on how any training might be improved.
thanks again for any and all comments good bad or ugly

forever young

08-19-2007, 08:03 AM

i would just like to quote myself from another forum for clarity
i do train under one of ninos students and yup there is plenty of stuff to learn and improve but to be honest we were just messing and taking a breather from rolling, doing some push pull, destruction, and general messing around
just a little clarification as to what was actually happening :D

SAAMAG

08-19-2007, 08:57 AM

I liked it. It's the way ALL people should train. All the ranges--regardless of what style(s) are chosen.

Thanks for the clips!

Dave P

08-19-2007, 09:40 AM

This stems from seeing WCK differently than any other athletic activity/sport. No one would talk this way about boxing or wrestling or basketball. Lineage is who taught whom, not in how or what *you* do. You go to a golf pro to help *your* golf game, not to do his golf or play like him.

WC is not any other athletic activity/sport. It's not like boxing or wrestling. It's WC and unfortunately the WC lineages differ so much... It's like comparing appels with pears. The fundamentals SHOULD be the same. (just like with playing golf or tennis....) It's not wrong to learn from our teachers or teachers teachers. As long as you as still learning the skills yourself...

"Flavor" is another of the TMA buzzwords. In any functional atheltic activity/sport, everyone who "plays" the game will "play" it differently. The fundamentals of that activity are the same; how a person uses those fundamentals depends on their skill level, physical characteristics, talents, experience, etc.

Absolutely...

This is what traditional guys don't "get" -- you inherit nothing. The only things that can be taught are the fundamental skills, and those only by someone who has learned and developed the fundamental skills themselves. That's it.

It's a wordplay again. Of course you all have to develop it yourself, but it's the teachings you learn them from. And the insights you develop trough you teachings AND personal experience. Your not inventing the whole system again like inventing the wheel....

When you learn golf or basketball or wrestling or boxing you are not being taught the "teachings of our teacher's teacher" -- what good athlete even thinks that way? Lineage is BS.

It's not golf or basketbal, wrestling or boxing. The game is different and if I may say...more complex... Lineage should be BS. But as I earlier stated. There is too much difference... But that doesn't take away that we should respect each other..

Questions like "where is the WCK?" I think miss the point -- because they are based on an assumption on the part of the person asking the question as to what WCK "is" or "should be" (their "theory" of WCK). A better question is IMO: are they using in fighting those things that they are training to do? In other words, does their learning-training/practice-fighting correspond 1-to-1-to-1? If so, and they are geting good results, who can say they are wrong?

OK, ...As we all know the principles of WC and the basic concepts...IMO the shown videos are showing some playing and mixture with more than 90% none WC things...Ofcourse anyone should play around and experience other systems. But where are we going? Is this the future of our system? An uncontrolled mixture of all systems?

In my experience, the reality of fighting involves stand up (free movement), clinch (standing contact/grappling), and ground, and unless one side gets lucky or has a significant advantage in skill, it is very likely that the fight will involve these various aspects. If you are not prepared to deal with them, you will suffer. To be a good, well-rounded fighter, a person needs to be familiar with and skilled in all three aspects. When any stand-up fighter begins to take the other aspects into account in their training, it will change their game -- that's what happens to MT and boxers who do MMA, for instance. They can't do the same things the same way because by doing so it creates opportunites to be taken down. So they will , if they want to be successful, "adjust" their games accordingly. It is the same for WCK.

I agree with you on getting familiar with different aspects of fighting. But I only use WC to solve the problems. I don't want to learn BJJ to deal with ground fighters. I don't want to lear Muay Thai to deal with clinches. But I like to train with those guys to make my WC better....To get inside their brains and learn how the are thinking in combat...Only this way I learn how my WC can deal with it. I don't want to learn different systems to be able to solve all problems possible. A BJJ guy is more experienced in BJJ I should need to learn his system to fight him on his game. I should make my WC skills better...

forever young

08-19-2007, 01:27 PM

It's not golf or basketbal, wrestling or boxing. The game is different and if I may say...more complex... Lineage should be BS. But as I earlier stated. There is too much difference... But that doesn't take away that we should respect each other..

well herin lies the problem of most people within the wing chun world that i have observed, wing chun is NOT complex its actually quite simple and once understood is easy to apply the wing chun "concepts" to anything infact nino for example often says that wing chun should once understood apply and make all skills better or to rephrase its the attention to detail that is important and i personally have found and am convinced thru observation that im my case it has made my plastering better or definately made bjj easier to learn due to that "attention to detail" that is all important, check http://www.ninobernardo.com/sensitivityanddetailsinwingchun.html
http://www.ninobernardo.com/wing%20chun%20syllabus.html
for a correct view on wing chun and the structure of the system in particular these paragraphs

"Another reward for spending a lot of time in a wing chun kwoon comes from the attention to detail we develop. For example, a lot of what I call spastic spasms can be brought to the surface through training. These include telegraphing moves, twitching, flinching and strange facial expressions such as biting your lip or blinking just before executing a technique."
and

"All this section of the syllabus works on the same principles. We are expected to lock our hips to keep the torso like a solid mass, bring our elbows into the middle, have a constant forward energy and defend and attack the centre."
simple as this i feel :D

OK, ...As we all know the principles of WC and the basic concepts...IMO the shown videos are showing some playing and mixture with more than 90% none WC things...Ofcourse anyone should play around and experience other systems. But where are we going? Is this the future of our system? An uncontrolled mixture of all systems?i never said they were for example pure wing chun clips and with regard to
But where are we going? Is this the future of our system? An uncontrolled mixture of all systems well as i understand it wing chun is and allways has been a system that was either developed from other systems or perhaps from various innovators either way its never imo been a 'PURE' system (whatever the hell that is :D) and i do agree that it showed little wing chun and would refer you to my earlier post and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuhArrQxUiU this clip (which is very old and shows a low level of wing chun but hey we were trying ;) )

I agree with you on getting familiar with different aspects of fighting. But I only use WC to solve the problems. I don't want to learn BJJ to deal with ground fighters. I don't want to lear Muay Thai to deal with clinches. But I like to train with those guys to make my WC better....To get inside their brains and learn how the are thinking in combat...Only this way I learn how my WC can deal with it. I don't want to learn different systems to be able to solve all problems possible. A BJJ guy is more experienced in BJJ I should need to learn his system to fight him on his game. I should make my WC skills better...
here again lies a problem that you dont seem to understand the limitations of the system infact during class today sifu actually stated to me that in his opinion the only flaw in wing chun is no groundwork so im not sure how you will find the solution to finding yourself on your arse/back within wing chun so when you say

But I only use WC to solve the problems. I don't want to learn BJJ to deal with ground fighters. I don't want to lear Muay Thai to deal with clinches i feel you are
a) very short sighted (wong sifu himself used to box and was a fan as well as using weights/punch bags ect) and
b)depriving yourself of some serious development ie in my case since i started looking outside the system everyone with whom i train has stated my wing chun has improved dramatically and in a couple of instances seniors whom i used to struggle with have been overtaken by me (sifus words :D )
im glad you think wing chun has all the answers to all the combat ranges and scenarios but this IS flawed thinking and NOT correct (imo of course :D) so do yourself a favor and sort your head out, your wing chun WILL thank you for it
FY

forever young

08-19-2007, 01:30 PM

I liked it. It's the way ALL people should train. All the ranges--regardless of what style(s) are chosen.

Thanks for the clips!

thank you for your positive comments they are appreciated :)

forever young

08-19-2007, 01:36 PM

Dave P

08-19-2007, 02:54 PM

here again lies a problem that you dont seem to understand the limitations of the system infact during class today sifu actually stated to me that in his opinion the only flaw in wing chun is no groundwork

Well you seem to see problems and limtations. You refer to you teachers classes (teachers teachings) his statings and opinions. IMO and the techings I have been given we feel differently. Why spend so much time on groundfighting when we should really try to make our selves better in preventing to go down to the ground. It's the training of exeptions.

i feel you are
a) very short sighted (wong sifu himself used to box and was a fan as well as using weights/punch bags ect) and
b)depriving yourself of some serious development ie in my case since i started looking outside the system everyone with whom i train has stated my wing chun has improved dramatically and in a couple of instances seniors whom i used to struggle with have been overtaken by me (sifus words :D )
im glad you think wing chun has all the answers to all the combat ranges and scenarios but this IS flawed thinking and NOT correct (imo of course :D) so do yourself a favor and sort your head out, your wing chun WILL thank you for it
FY

You may consider me short sighted as I might consider you not to have thrust in Wing Chun as a 'complete' system. And that's a funny thing as we seem to be from the same lineage. Your teacher as well as mine had their training under WSL himself. Even in our lineages there are differences in opinion. That's a good thing as we are forced to think for ourselfes instead of copying our teachers. But nothing's wrong with taking someone's experience in mind. Even here you refer to WSL as not being a short sighted man... Yes he had respect for western boxing and yes he looked outside the system, but he never turned his back to it. He never claimed that the system was incomplete. Neither is my teacher and neither am I. Those are differences in opinion, and IMO no problems or short sightment.

Let me again make one thing clear...You must lokk outside your system to see the way others fight. But I indeed actually feel that the principles of WC have the answers... It will take at least a lifetime to achieve max 70% of the system...I don't have the time to train all possible exeptions.

I therefore appreciate this discussion. Respect...

t_niehoff

08-19-2007, 04:45 PM

WC is not any other athletic activity/sport. It's not like boxing or wrestling. It's WC and unfortunately the WC lineages differ so much... It's like comparing appels with pears. The fundamentals SHOULD be the same. (just like with playing golf or tennis....) It's not wrong to learn from our teachers or teachers teachers. As long as you as still learning the skills yourself...

Thinking WCK -- or any martial art for that matter -- is different in kind than other athletic activities is precisely the kind of thinking that has led TCMAs to where they are: useless in terms of developing higher levels of functional fighting skills.

It's a wordplay again. Of course you all have to develop it yourself, but it's the teachings you learn them from. And the insights you develop trough you teachings AND personal experience. Your not inventing the whole system again like inventing the wheel....

It's not wordplay -- there is an important distinction. You don't "inherit" riding a bicycle or basketball or boxing or golf or WCK. It's not "passed down" -- activities and/or skills can't be "passed down" or "inherited". This way of thinking views WCK as something knowledge-based, like a secret formula (people who think this way like to refer to WCK as "the system"). It's not. WCK, like any martial art, or any competive athletic activity for that matter, is a skill-based activity. You learn the skills, then "do the activity". The "insights" and "teachings" are secondary and are only useful insofar as they help you develop the skills and do the activity.

It's not golf or basketbal, wrestling or boxing. The game is different and if I may say...more complex... Lineage should be BS. But as I earlier stated. There is too much difference... But that doesn't take away that we should respect each other..

Yes, the game is different -- but basketball is different from wrestling too. The point is that they are all athletic games, athletic activities. WCK is no more "complex" than boxing or wrestling; if it were, it couldn't possibly work. And as they are all atheltic activities, we should look at them all that way. If we looked at boxing like people look at WCK, it would be in the same state as WCK. And it wouldn't be boxing that changed, just how we approached it, viewed it, that drained all the usefulness out of it. Until we look at WCK the same way we do boxing or wrestling or basketball -- as long as we are locked in the the traditional chinese view -- we won't change how we treat it, how we train it, etc.

OK, ...As we all know the principles of WC and the basic concepts...IMO the shown videos are showing some playing and mixture with more than 90% none WC things...Ofcourse anyone should play around and experience other systems. But where are we going? Is this the future of our system? An uncontrolled mixture of all systems?

I don't agree at all that "we all know the principles of WC and the basic concepts" (though most people believe they do know). To really know anything beyond a superficial level only comes from the process of attaining skill, fighting skill. And our knowledge level will correspond to our fighting skill level. Since most WCK people couldn't fight beyond a very low level with their WCK, they only have a very poor understanding of WCK, including the principles and concepts. All they have are theories of what they believe or have been told WCK "should" be.

My view is that the forms, the drills, etc. are not WCK. Those are the superficial aspects of WCK. WCK is in the application, it is in the fighting, in the doing of the activity. No fighting, no WCK. Just like boxing, just like wrestling, just like basketball, etc. The amount of time any person has spent "doing WCK" is the amount of time they've spent sparring. Everything else is prep work. It's sad to say that most "grandmasters" and "masters" have spent little to no time really practicing or doing WCK. And even the ones like Wong, who fought more and had more skill -- and so knew more -- can't tell us how to play the game ourselves. You learn to box by boxing. No one can tell you how to do it. You need to find your own way. A good instructor can help you learn the fundamentals, can help you find your way of using those fundamentals, but only you - and you alone - can develop your WCK. And that only comes by doing the work: doing WCK, fighting with WCK.

But WCK itself is only a tool, just like wrestling or boxing or BJJ is a tool. I use those tools that help me get the job done. It's the job and getting it done that is our objective, that is important.

The future is only in the hands of those with genuine skills -- the ability ot use their WCK in fighting against good opponents.

I think we'd be better off being less concerned about the future and more concerned about what we can do today.

I agree with you on getting familiar with different aspects of fighting. But I only use WC to solve the problems. I don't want to learn BJJ to deal with ground fighters. I don't want to lear Muay Thai to deal with clinches. But I like to train with those guys to make my WC better....To get inside their brains and learn how the are thinking in combat...Only this way I learn how my WC can deal with it. I don't want to learn different systems to be able to solve all problems possible. A BJJ guy is more experienced in BJJ I should need to learn his system to fight him on his game. I should make my WC skills better...

WCK doesn't have the answers to all fighting problems. It provides a certain skill set, and those skills are useful in certain situations/contexts. As I said, it is a tool. Outside of that situation/context, WCK is a liability, not an asset. A hammer is great for hammering, but outside of that context is it limited. You can be the best boxer or the best WCK fighter on the planet and a good BJJ fighter will destroy you on the ground. He has the skill set for the ground -- the boxer and WCK fighter doesn't. And, he has the experience, having fought thousands of hours on the ground (which is why he developed that skill set in the first place).

If a person's goal is to develop good fighting skills, and to be a well-rounded fighter, then they need to develop their own game, their own way of dealing with stand-up, clinch, and ground. That game only comes from playing the game, and playing it an awful lot. And it helps -- greatly -- to have experienced, knowledgeable people help you develop your game. If you want to develop good ground skills, then learn from a skilled ground fighter about how to fight better on the ground.

chisauking

08-19-2007, 04:56 PM

forever young

08-19-2007, 05:02 PM

Well you seem to see problems and limtations. You refer to you teachers classes (teachers teachings) his statings and opinions. IMO and the techings I have been given we feel differently. Why spend so much time on groundfighting when we should really try to make our selves better in preventing to go down to the ground. It's the training of exeptions.

i will honestly say that i have 'seen' what happens when people think that they are too good to be taken down and what people (including myself before i found out different) think they can 'prevent' going to the ground especially within the wing chun framework (close/infighting/dirty boxing range) and to be brutally honest it is very very hard to prevent someone taking you/dragging you down/going down. i will give 2 examples of how this MIGHT occur

1, my favorite is the drag down which would involve literally grabbing a limb/clothing anything i can get hold of and pulling/dragging you down to the floor. this only needs a firm hold of something and can be achieved via clinching/tying up or simply covering up and rushing in. it is virtually impossible unless you deliver that knockout blow (again pretty unlikely that you will get a one punch knock out especially if im covering up and especially as in my opinion the fact you will be trying to 'close the gap' anyway) that you would stop this kind of takedown as it would require lots of space and out of this world footwork to prevent me grabbing you not to mention it requires only an arm or something for me to grab in order to execute especially as i WOULD be both willing and fully expecting to receive some kind of strike as i know that chances are its unlikely as i stated to be a clean enough blow to do any real damage as i would be covering up anyway.

2, slip trip fall punch, all these things are possible especially in the 'heat of battle' :D so you can quite easily find yourself on the floor despite the best of intentions.

as an exersize perhaps you should get a training partner/friend/student what ever and 'see if you can grab him firmly' if you can the chances are you will feel that you could drag him to the floor quite easily.

b
You may consider me short sighted as I might consider you not to have thrust in Wing Chun as a 'complete' system. And that's a funny thing as we seem to be from the same lineage. Your teacher as well as mine had their training under WSL himself. Even in our lineages there are differences in opinion. That's a good thing as we are forced to think for ourselfes instead of copying our teachers. But nothing's wrong with taking someone's experience in mind. Even here you refer to WSL as not being a short sighted man... Yes he had respect for western boxing and yes he looked outside the system, but he never turned his back to it. He never claimed that the system was incomplete. Neither is my teacher and neither am I. Those are differences in opinion, and IMO no problems or short sightment.

Let me again make one thing clear...You must lokk outside your system to see the way others fight. But I indeed actually feel that the principles of WC have the answers... It will take at least a lifetime to achieve max 70% of the system...I don't have the time to train all possible exeptions.

I therefore appreciate this discussion. Respect...
i think you misunderstand me. i HAVE complete faith in wing chun as a delivery system and set of common sense principles ie: use of (or attempt to) body mass to deliver strikes, non telegraphing of strikes etc etc but i disagree that the principles would take a lifetime to achieve as this would indicate that it is inefficient and complex which as i have outlined above is imo an incorrect view of the system. i will also make clear i am not nor will i "turn my back to it" i will however accept that
1, it has NO GROUND FIGHTING and
2,despite my best intentions i might well find myself there anyway
i will also point out that by training bjj or anything else in no way detracts from my wing chun and (i was only having this conversation with my brother the other day) as a human being our brains are not so stupid that i can only learn/execute/do one thing at a time so with that in mind there is imo no problem training every system under the sun (i only wish i had the time) for example my bjj training is on days when there is no wc classes so unless i spend the time on the wall bag/jong which after a few years has much more limited use, i wouldnt be training anyway so it dont steal any time from my wc (usual argument is 'i would rather spend the time doing wc')
and i dont train 'all possible exeptions' just the most likely ones
and to make clear i also appreciate the discussion :D

forever young

08-19-2007, 05:05 PM

Knifefighter

08-19-2007, 05:10 PM

Yeah, you are right! Wing chun is incomplete.

What are you going to do when you are on the ground?
What happends if a fight is on grass?
What do we do if someone has a finger in our eye socket?
Can we do anything if someone grabs hold of our fingers?
What do we do if we meet a savate practitioner?
What do we do if we meet someone who does Pakistani Ju jitsu?
What do we do when someone is kicking us in the face with steel toecaps?
How do we counter a mantis' phoenix strike?
What do we do when faced with a Turkish wrestler with oil on his body?
What happends if we are faced with someone that's just invented his own style which we know nothing about?

We better spend the next 100 years' on researching how to counter all the limitless permutations of possibilities in a real fight.

*******Wingchunfighter

Actually, if you just spent time going live in the three ranges (outside striking, clinch, ground), you would begin to figure many those things out rather quickly... you would also find that figuring out all of those permutations is a natural part of what happens when you actually spar in a live manner. Additionally, you would be less likely to be surprised by something new.

Only theoretical non-fighters think you have to do "research"on how to counter the limitless permutations that happen from fighting. People who actually spend their time "doing" know that figuring those things out is not only part of the training, but figuring those things out also helps you to develop new permutations of your own. They also find that there are generalities that can be transferred from one platform to another... but these generalities can only be figured out by actually doing the activity.

Knifefighter

08-19-2007, 05:12 PM

this is all you have to contribute? what a crock of crap

Theoreticians can only contribute theory.

forever young

08-19-2007, 05:15 PM

Yeah, you are right! Wing chun is incomplete.

What are you going to do when you are on the ground?
brazillian jiujitsu

What happends if a fight is on grass?
pretend to be a cow and eat it

What do we do if someone has a finger in our eye socket?
blink

Can we do anything if someone grabs hold of our fingers?
shake their hand

What do we do if we meet a savate practitioner?
say hello

What do we do if we meet someone who does Pakistani Ju jitsu?
ask him if he can rustle up a curry

What do we do when someone is kicking us in the face with steel toecaps?say ouch

How do we counter a mantis' phoenix strike?
with a grasshopper eagle claw

What do we do when faced with a Turkish wrestler with oil on his body?
call him a pervert

What happends if we are faced with someone that's just invented his own style which we know nothing about?
laugh till urine runs down our legs

We better spend the next 100 years' on researching how to counter all the limitless permutations of possibilities in a real fight.

*******Wingchunfighter
or we could just look as to the evidence as presented via both experience and the media available and train accordingly

Edmund

08-19-2007, 05:18 PM

The critics I had were on the clips.. I could also say... Where is the WC...?
I have learned the system doestn't have any groundwork involved. Some systems added it later. (Especially ith the UFC time period) Some systems like to mix with BJJ and so. These clips show me a mixture where WC is hard to find... The mentioning of the WSL (lineage) WC system has arrised me some doubts as I may say...

Hard to find? How much did you watch?

They did some chi sao in the clips and forever young never claimed the clips contained WC ONLY.

If you have some bias against grappling arts then you shouldn't have watched. If you clicked on the link you would have seen the title of the clip was BJJ-WC.

forever young

08-19-2007, 05:19 PM

Hard to find? How much did you watch?

They did some chi sao in the clips and forever young never claimed the clips contained WC ONLY.

If you have some bias against grappling arts then you shouldn't have watched. If you clicked on the link you would have seen the title of the clip was BJJ-WC.

thank you for seeing it for what it was

chisauking

08-19-2007, 05:42 PM

Knifefighter

08-19-2007, 05:47 PM

Is that why wing chun practitioners worry soooooo much about ONE possible permutation of a real fight......like being taken to the ground?

Since that is 1/3 of the fighting ranges, I'd guess that might be an important consideration.

I'm still trying to work out the limitations of wing chun when faced with someone that's bigger, stronger, taller, and faster than me,

IMO, that IS the limitation of WC.

anerlich

08-19-2007, 05:57 PM

But that doesn't take away that we should respect each other..
(Dave P)

Respect is what was missing from your first post (where is the Wing Chun?), and the is the reason why you're now trying to rationalise your foot out of your mouth.

Kudos to the OP's for posting the clips. Nice to see sincere effort and exploration.

Wu Wei Wu

08-19-2007, 06:04 PM

Well done for posting the clips Forever Young. I only watched briefly but I like the honest approach you have to training as further evidenced by your written responses. If you are from Nino's line (not that it matters!) I am sure you are well aware of what constitutes good Wing Chun.

Personally, I had similar sentiments to a few people, many years ago. this was when I thought that Wing Chun contained all the answers. However, try as I did I could not get past certain limitations, particularly the ground aspect. As much as I would love to say that it contains all the answers, I don't think it does.

I once thought I could prevent being taken down using Wing Chun. Until I came across a 'reasonably' skilled submission fighter. Thankfully and despite a bruised ego, I realised a new approach was needed. In short, I woke up. Now, I am humble enough to ask for guidance from anyone who I think could help me become a better Wing Chun man.

To those who cross-train, they in my opinion are the true heralds of Wing Chun as they have escaped the dogma of a dated art. These are the ones who are injecting a new energy into Wing Chun, not through 'mixing it' with other styles. But more rather, by subjecting it to pressure testing against other styles.

WWW

forever young

08-19-2007, 06:07 PM

knifefighter sez: Only theoretical non-fighters think you have to do "research"on how to counter the limitless permutations that happen from fighting

Is that why wing chun practitioners worry soooooo much about ONE possible permutation of a real fight......like being taken to the ground?

I'm still trying to work out the limitations of wing chun when faced with someone that's bigger, stronger, taller, and faster than me, so don't worry too much about me.....I'm just a novice compared to you guys

ok if its you im thinking of then you held/attended a seminar by gary lam correct?
now if it is you then im sure you were impressed by lam sifu?
then consider that he learned (and as far as i know still does/teaches) muay thai and had no problem with this.
my own sigung nino bernardo teaches kali/escrima alongside his wing chun and as i pointed out wong sifu spent time boxing and tai chi
so with that im mind what would be your argument against learning another skillset alongside the one you are trying to develop (wck)? the resistance to cross training i see within wing chun staggers me as i personally see it as a progressive fighting system that would incorporate and compliment any other system (or vice versa) and to train something else dosnt mean that you have 'sold out' so to speak. funnily enough you mention bigger stronger, taller, faster guys than you well as far as i understand it bjj reverse engineers a fight by saying what happens when faced with and opponent who is bigger stronger and more agressive than me AND has already floored me/is on top of me (which im sure we can all agree is likely because as stated hes bigger, stronger and more agressive than me) and then attempts to turn that situation around, and to be brutally honest its no good saying it wouldnt happen because basically that is 1, depending on luck and 2, wishfull thinking
well im just glad i have a small (very small at the moment) amount of skill that would hopefully stand me in good stead when im standing up AND if/when i hit the deck
just my 02

forever young

08-19-2007, 06:10 PM

Ultimatewingchun

08-19-2007, 06:16 PM

Although wing chun hands can ADD to one's takedown defense nicely, the fact is that without basic wrestling/grappling skill in sprawling and all other related anti-takedown wrestling/grappling moves (ie.- w h i z z e r s, underhooks, crossfaces, etc.)...

the odds are you're going to be taken down by a good wrestler/grappler who can take a punch on the way in - and who doesn't have a major size/reach disadvantage compared to you.

CROSSTRAINING is the state-of-the-art.

There's just no getting around it.

forever young

08-19-2007, 06:24 PM

Edmund

08-19-2007, 06:34 PM

Question for forever young:

Do you train in the gi at all?
For the guard passing that I saw, it seemed like you guys didn't use the trousers.

chisauking

08-19-2007, 06:49 PM

Edmund

08-19-2007, 07:32 PM

In reply, I pointed out there are millions of possible scenarios and problems in a fight. Just because YOU or your sifu found problems with ONE aspect of fighting and then on that basis declare wing chun is flawed or limited my not be shared by other wing chun practitioners.

If wing chun pracitioners think in terms of techniques to counter techniques, then your wing chun mindset is 'flawed' on the onset and one would spend an entire lifetime solving problems.

You made the straw man argument that WC people who cross train in ground fighting are trying to counter one of millions of scenarios. The implication being that one in a million doesn't happen very often therefore don't worry about it and WC is not flawed.

But you pretty much made a mockery of your own argument by listing unlikely weird scenarios! Anyone can make up a list of many stupid scenarios but it doesn't make groundfighting *less* likely.

I think there's a flaw in your WC mindset. The statistical likelihood of ground fighting is the same regardless of how many OTHER lame possibilities there are.

If people cross train for the most likely scenarios, there is a greater chance that they won't be completely lost should those scenarios occur.

SAAMAG

08-19-2007, 10:53 PM

also here are a few more clips that might be of interest regarding what we were doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgGp_1Azr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZnv0wZhpW0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_GXS3fL-NM
these are just some more clips from the nino bernardo lineage and display a few different aspects of chisau (of course mine isnt as good but hey ;))

That asian/hispanic? guy was phenominal. The only question I have though is...would that work against someone who is truly trying to hit him...

I love being able to use soft power for deflection, but if you are only accustomed to light power--you won't be able to work things the same when faced with proper power.

forever young

08-19-2007, 11:00 PM

Question for forever young:

Do you train in the gi at all?
For the guard passing that I saw, it seemed like you guys didn't use the trousers.

yup 3 times a week :D but to be honest when doing no gi i try not to use any handles, funnily enough we were doing a few guard passes last week that used the trousers :)

AmanuJRY

08-20-2007, 06:54 AM

I'm still trying to work out the limitations of wing chun when faced with someone that's bigger, stronger, taller, and faster than me, so don't worry too much about me.....I'm just a novice compared to you guys

They are pretty much the same as the limitations of any other art used against a bigger, stronger, taller and faster opponent.;)

forever young

08-20-2007, 09:21 AM

First of all, let's not drag 'names' to support our pov. What ever Gary Lam students write on forums is down to themsleves and isn't necessarily Gary's veiws. After saying that, even when students have directly quoted Gary in the past, people like you still don't believe him any way.

People like me :confused: what people are they then? realistic ones ? and im not dragging names into anything merely pointing out common knowledge, its not like im putting words into anyones mouth. and as for gary lam specifically i have the utmost respect for what i see when he moves/performs and for the fact he HAS 'been there done that' (certainly with respect to actual combat)

I love all martial arts, and I'm happy if my fellow wing chun brothers better themselves using whatever method that works for them. However, to claim that wing chun is limited on the basis that it doesn't cover groundwork is rather presumptious and it's something which I personally don't agree with.
disagree all you like but the FACT remains that in wing chun there IS NO GROUND WORK. now unless you are doing something that is completely different to the rest of us i can assure you of this. Therefore the presumption that it is limited to a STAND UP system would seem accurate and if fact not a presumption at all :D

You said: here again lies a problem that you dont seem to understand the limitations of the system infact during class today sifu actually stated to me that in his opinion the only flaw in wing chun is no groundwork so im not sure how you will find the solution to finding yourself on your arse/back within wing chun so when you say end quote.

In reply, I pointed out there are millions of possible scenarios and problems in a fight. Just because YOU or your sifu found problems with ONE aspect of fighting and then on that basis declare wing chun is flawed or limited my not be shared by other wing chun practitioners.

you are aproaching this bass ackward im afraid and again i can only state the fact there are limitations which while you would like to put words into my mouth does not equate with flawed

If wing chun pracitioners think in terms of techniques to counter techniques, then your wing chun mindset is 'flawed' on the onset and one would spend an entire lifetime solving problems.

i would ask you to point out where i discussed or even mentioned techniques!!!
and to mention this aspect merely points out to me it is infact you who is thinking along the lines of technique versus technique and again as to flawed if you read throught the thread you will find the majority support my view based either on common sense or experience while you seem to be trying to insinuate my understanding of wing chun is flawed i would reverse that argument and say categorically it is YOUR understanding that is flawed. Its not about lifetimes solving problems merely expanding the range at which i can operate with some small degree of confidence instead of lying on the floor flapping about not knowing what to do and in case you think you would do different i would say go to any grappling/submission school for 1 just 1 visit, im sure you can spare 1 hour of your time once on a one off basis just to see if you are correct (or you could just take my word for it as well as the word of those others with DIRECT experience)

What I say here is based on my own perspective and limited experience. I'm a mediocre wing chun practiitoner that can't even punch my way out of a wet paper bag. Only like-minded people would take any notice of what I say, so just ignore my ramblings.

Happy training.
you talk of like minded people do you mean insular and unrealistic as you appear?
by your own admission you have limited experience and mediocre skills well then take advice from those who have or are doing the research instead of closing your eyes and reciting falsehoods, i would go as far as to say its people like you who are the main problem with wing chun and you would do us all a favor within the wing chun world and as nino would say 'delete the virus because its ****ing up your computer my friend'!!!
i would also compare your views to those of a "true believer" and we all know the wars they have started ;)

Dave P

08-20-2007, 10:37 AM

(Dave P)

Respect is what was missing from your first post (where is the Wing Chun?), and the is the reason why you're now trying to rationalise your foot out of your mouth.

Kudos to the OP's for posting the clips. Nice to see sincere effort and exploration.

I notice that having different ideas is not appreciated here by the tone of your post. Perhaps I started wrongly, I admit that. But you don't seem to respect my way of thinking on Wing Chun either as you are writing this post with a sarcasmic tone.

There are too many posts now to react on.(Over one night and an ocean of time difference) Even a lot of good stuff and feedback to think and talk about. For now I cannot instantly say that I suddely want to learn BJJ to fight groundfighters. And I do still believe that prevention is better than healing. I have trust in WC to be a complete system. I have fought different groudfighters in friendly sparring sessions. I know that he is in favour when I am on the ground. But I am in favour if he's still standing. That's the fight I'm concentrating on.

But let me be clear, I do consider cross training to be a valuable thing. But I take my advantage in the WC system instead of learning the other system.

From here now greetings to you all...

k gledhill

08-20-2007, 02:33 PM

Forever young, do you do seung ma toi ma drills ?

chisauking

08-20-2007, 04:45 PM

There are only an infinate \ so many ways to bridge & attack, it's what I refer to angles of entry\attack. In actual combat (according to a layman -- myself), there are 3 main phases: striking, stand-up grappling, and ground. Out of the 3, ground is the least important because you have to pass 1 & 2 before you get to 3. The best way to prevent 3 is to get good at 1 & 2......but of course, some prefer to make wing chun much harder than it really is. The Chinese believe prevention is better than cure. But I guess not all people beleive in the same values. WSL, an average figther (accordinly to many on these forums) was once asked: What do I do if someone has a knive against me throat? He replied: than it's too late! Those who understand the moral of the story will understand what I'm saying; those who don't, never will.

Being punched to the head, kick to the knees, punching \ lounging at your opponent's legs are all examples of 'angles' of attacks. To learn a whole system in order to defend against ONE of the the many possible angles -- because you feel wing chun is flawed or lacking -- to me is a classic example of technique against technique.

Instead of being Terrence number 2, and telling people to go to a MMA or BJJ gym, I would like to pose another alternative. Go to the meanest pub you can think of and challenge the 'punters' to try and kick you in the head or knees as hard as possible. In order to coerce the people to try their best, say to them you will pay them £100 if they can smash your face or kneecapes whilst you try and take them down by diving for their legs. In order to make it realistic, all the punters will wear their working shoes or boots and the 'test' is to be conducted outside on the pavement, which would simulate a 'real' fight enviroment which is missing in ALL the so-called gyms. If you can post vid clips of you doing this succesfully, then I will be the first one to offer you my sincerest apology and I will 'beg' you to teach me all about groundwork.

I wait in antipation of such clips on utube. Until then, this layman has nothing more substantial to offer in the presence of all great fighters on this forum.

YungChun

08-20-2007, 04:56 PM

Go to the meanest pub you can think of and challenge the 'punters' to try and kick you in the head or knees as hard as possible. In order to coerce the people to try their best, say to them you will pay them £100 if they can smash your face or kneecapes whilst you try and take them down by diving for their legs.

Just brilliant...:rolleyes:

You cannot always control what range you will find yourself in...PERIOD!

People have been telling you this for a long time.. Specialize yes, but to wantonly ignore training in ground range is just silly..

If WSL were alive and well and in the prime of his life today I would be willing to bet my last penny he would be training ground, the man just hated loosing too much to leave such a huge gap in his training...

Take the advice of the majority of WCK people here who have been training in the art longer than you've been shaving....

anerlich

08-20-2007, 05:08 PM

I notice that having different ideas is not appreciated here by the tone of your post. Perhaps I started wrongly, I admit that. But you don't seem to respect my way of thinking on Wing Chun either as you are writing this post with a sarcasmic tone.

I have no problem with different POV's. My criticism pertained to the sarcastic tone of your first smarta$$ post. Pots and kettles you saying my tone is "sarcasmic " [sic].

Apologise and move on, stop digging when you're in a hole.

TWC has some tactics and techniques for fighting from the ground, which I was shown before BJJ came on the radar anywhere outside Brazil. Mainly defense and using kicks against a standing opponent when you are on the floor. So IMO it's not true to say WC has no groundfighting. Its quality, though, is open to debate.

IMO these tactics and techniques are useless against a wrestler who shoots on you or a grappler who has you pinned. My instructor agrees, which is why our school has been a Machado BJJ affiliate since last century.

byond1

08-20-2007, 05:22 PM

Forever young -

Please dont make blanket statements about WCK. I understand you were defending yourself -You were put on the defensive when you did nothing wrong. I understand you shared some nice training, and others reacted improperly to you.
Let me say, I appreciate all your hard work and training.

But saying "WCK doesnt have ground work" or when others state, "WCK doesnt have CHin Na", and "WCK doesnt have takedowns"- is wrong!Plain and simple. The proper statement would be 'My WCK doesnt have groundwork, takedowns, Chin Na ect." OR "the WCK I have seen and experianced doesnt contain these components. Or even "Most modern WCK doesnt include..."

The WCK I practise from the Mainland (YKS WCK) is a Ging based - conceptual and principle based art. It can and should be used for striking, kicking, locking and breaking, takedowns, sweeps ect. Everything within the system is WCK. There is no importing of outside material, which is obvious when one sees it demonstrated,as all hands used to do Chin na or whatever are the same hands used for everything else.

WCK forms teach one how to express a unique form of mechanical force IE Inch Ging. It can be applied any way ones imagination can with the concepts, AS LONG as you stay within the Principles, which are what define the context that is WCK.

Now I understand most wont believe what I have posted as many wouldnt want to believe that there are branchs of WCK which actualy do cover all ranges, with just WCK. But its fact. I train all ranges, including on my back, and use my WCK Ging, concepts, principles, and applications, with NO cross training in anything. Since the time JKD hit big pre MMA, I took advantage of training partners that understood wrestling, Kicking, boxing, leg locks, ect and forced my self to find the WCK answer.

Now lets be clear, I have to train with guys that are good on the ground, but I dont train their methods to respond with. I use WCK, and even if it takes me months to figure out how to counter something, I wont let my ego get in the way - I wont cheat by looking up for the MMA answer. Also most WCKers train against WCK. What sence does that make? I train agaisnt all other methods of attack!!

To clairify a few things. My WCK is typicaly a stand up fighting and grappling art, that uses striking, kicking, locking and breaking, take downs, and sweeps. It is a specialized form of standing grappling while striking.

We dont use any strength against strength. So typicaly we dont use much strangulation as that requires alot of strength - though if our opponent was beatup and tired and we could throw it on without a strength battle we would.
Our takedowns would never look like a wrestlers. We would never go for the legs like that with are arms . But as a standup grappling art, we have whole body chi sau, and use that skill to neutralize and strike, and than take down while breaking. The Take downs are frequently followed up by use of the "Gwa Mah" - which is a modified Pian San Mah, that drops one knee to the ground typicaly used to crush the opponents ribs or chest as one drops down.

We would never try to get into guard position. Once we takedown and break, we would continue with a WCK ground and pound, using the same principles used in standing. We use every single part of our body to strike, including headbuts, shoulder strikes, while in contact with the opponent either standing or on the ground. The clinch, is WCK territory, as that is standup grappling

Now to touch upon the area where WCK has a weakness. Wrestler Take downs, or worse the opponent has side control. And to a lesser degree the Guard position.These are the areas im currently working in and are the weakest link in the WCK bag of tricks, as most dont train it.

Take down defence is important to ANY standup fighter. Currently im attempting to find a WCK answer to the sprawl but its a work in progress. I activly use a method of moving off line of the takedown, while striking as i evade. The angle is tuff though to get a good strike and have had to modify some WCK strikes to be able to answer the question, which would be illegal in MMA though for somereason Chuck Liddel still gets power in those odd angles but he is a freak of nature!! ::))

WCK doesnt have "the guard" built into the system, in my understanding, as in "a position we attempt to get into" , like BJJ guys do. But if we are put on our back, we have to train to be able to fight in that position. All the same referance points exists and everything is the same. Use of the hips, and listening with the body are of paramount importance. Constantly moving the hips and bucking are translation of use of the hips and pelivis to power certain motions. Since my WCK has Locks and breaks, when im forced on my back, i have locks and breaks IE submissions used for breaking.Everything is the same, in terms of the wide range of things I can do. I even use my Chi Gerk training , to create a better position than the typical open BJJ guard. I use a Lan Gerk, to create something similar to what is called the " rubber guard", which i independently created out of logic and the need to be constricting my opponents move like a Snake so they cant posture up. Hence my WCK is snake and crane boxing. Use of the whole body like a snake is paramount, and suffocating the opponents movements.

How to defend agaisnt side control isnt something I can do yet very well, so wont comment, as I simply use bucking and it may or may not work!!

So i hope you see my point.

B

chisauking

08-20-2007, 05:25 PM

Jim sez: You cannot always control what range you will find yourself in...PERIOD!

If your opponent is good enough to dicatate the range, you are finished regardless whether you know ground fighting or not.

People have been telling you this for a long time.. Specialize yes, but to wantonly ignore training in ground range is just silly..

I never siad it was wrong; I simply refute wing chun is 'flawed' because it doesn't have groundwork as such. Some prefer to prevent problems.....some like fixing problems. As for people 'telling me', I prefer to listen to people with 'real life' fighting experiences as oppose to 'club' fighting experiences.

If WSL were alive and well and in the prime of his life today I would be willing to bet my last penny he would be training ground, the man just hated loosing too much to leave such a huge gap in his training...

I would imagine a 'loser' at the casinos

Take the advice of the majority of WCK people here who have been training in the art longer than you've been shaving....

My auntie has been driving before I was born, but she's still a 5hit driver. But I'm an open minded individual, so I will patiently wait for such clips.

byond1

08-20-2007, 05:31 PM

Knifefighter - when you say ""Actually, if you just spent time going live in the three ranges (outside striking, clinch, ground), you would begin to figure many those things out rather quickly... you would also find that figuring out all of those permutations is a natural part of what happens when you actually spar in a live manner. Additionally, you would be less likely to be surprised by something new."

+++ YES, YES and YES. This has to be one of the clearest and to the point posts yet! Good Job!

Wu Wei -

+++YES. Preasure testing WCK against other arts, not importing other arts into WCK. Those who wont preasure test will fall to the wayside of obscurity.

byond1

08-20-2007, 05:44 PM

Yung Chun -

++++++YES!! Anyone thinking they can stop a takedown and control the range all the time simply hasnt experianced combat against a take down artist. When ones life is on the line, on the streets, where anything can happen, things are weird, and very random. You dont even need to be took down, you can be in a clinch and simply trip and fall with the enemy on top. Who knows!!!

A standup fighter , NOT training, against takedowns, will end up like EVERY UFC and Pride standup fighter , who doesnt train that aspect, IE They will lose and face defeat or on the streets, serious injury.

byond1

08-20-2007, 05:49 PM

On WSL,

My main YKS Sifu, actualy practised and taught H.K WCk for almost 20 years. He studied under a guy named Sifu Choi, who was a rich private student of Yip man during the time Duncan Leung learned. When Yip died Choi continued learning from WSL. As such my Sifu met WSL on many occasions.

Wong was fighter. And wasnt stuck on WCK, and would do whatever to win. He admited that he frequintly used the western boxing jab against kung fu guys as they had no defence for it!!! Wongs words! And than he chuckled!!

B

Nick Forrer

08-21-2007, 05:24 AM

But saying "WCK doesnt have ground work" or when others state, "WCK doesnt have CHin Na", and "WCK doesnt have takedowns"- is wrong!Plain and simple. The proper statement would be 'My WCK doesnt have groundwork, takedowns, Chin Na ect." OR "the WCK I have seen and experianced doesnt contain these components. Or even "Most modern WCK doesnt include..."

I think it would be more accurate to say WCK (where 'WCK' is shorthand for the people actually doing it, rather than some abstract entity) doesnt have groundwork to a level of sophistication and effectiveness anywhere near that of BJJ, just as BJJ doesnt have striking to the level of sophistication and effectiveness as WCK. I dont see why there should be any shame in admiting that - WCK is close range chinese boxing - BJJ is modified Judo with an emphasis on ground control and submissions. Train both to be a complete fighter.

The WCK I practise from the Mainland (YKS WCK) is a Ging based - conceptual and principle based art. It can and should be used for striking, kicking, locking and breaking, takedowns, sweeps ect. Everything within the system is WCK. There is no importing of outside material, which is obvious when one sees it demonstrated,as all hands used to do Chin na or whatever are the same hands used for everything else.

All that is true...but it doesnt relate to ground fighting - simply put whilst you can see conceptual similarites between the two (dont fight force with force, maintain correct structural positioning, look for flanking and angulation etc.) the actual movement patterns, techniques etc. are different. If you actually went and trained it with a good instructor and not just messed around with some JKD friends pre UFC youd find this out pretty quick.

Now lets be clear, I have to train with guys that are good on the ground, but I dont train their methods to respond with. I use WCK, and even if it takes me months to figure out how to counter something, I wont let my ego get in the way - I wont cheat by looking up for the MMA answer.

How is that cheating? - life is short - why try and figure out how to construct a single shot musket from an old manuscript when you can just go out and get yourself an M16?

We dont use any strength against strength. So typicaly we dont use much strangulation as that requires alot of strength -

Here is another example of your lack of understanding - strangulation e.g. RNC from the back is probably the most effective move for a small person against a large person and when done correctly requires the use of almost no force - moreover no matter how strong someone is its virtually impossible to defend ionce on and will put them to sleep in 5 - 10 secs.

WCK doesnt have "the guard" built into the system, in my understanding, as in "a position we attempt to get into" , like BJJ guys do.

BJJ guys dont attempt to get into the guard - you just use it if you get taken down - as its the best worst position in a street fight since it gives you the chance to strike, submit, sweep and stand up unlike any of the other bottom positions.

But if we are put on our back, we have to train to be able to fight in that position. All the same referance points exists and everything is the same.

No its not.

Use of the hips, and listening with the body are of paramount importance. Constantly moving the hips and bucking are translation of use of the hips and pelivis to power certain motions. Since my WCK has Locks and breaks, when im forced on my back, i have locks and breaks IE submissions used for breaking.Everything is the same, in terms of the wide range of things I can do. I even use my Chi Gerk training , to create a better position than the typical open BJJ guard.

I doubt that very much - what do you know about BJJ open guard?

How to defend agaisnt side control isnt something I can do yet very well, so wont comment, as I simply use bucking and it may or may not work!!

No simply bucking doesnt work - it just wastes your energy and is the hallmark of a white belt spaz - if you got some proper training youd find the correct way. I can get any untrained person - no matter what size and escape from any pin in under 5 secs using the correct BJJ principles.

YungChun

08-21-2007, 05:35 AM

If your opponent is good enough to dicatate the range, you are finished regardless whether you know ground fighting or not.

So all anyone needs to take you out is a banana peel.. Great.. Good luck with that..

I simply refute wing chun is 'flawed' because it doesn't have groundwork as such.

You're all busy defending the precious reputation of what is glorious Wing Chun--the perfect system, etc, etc, like all noobs, instead of thinking like a tactician—a fighter...

The best fighter in the world, in any style, can and will find themselves on the ground.. It happens all the time.. Slip, spit, ice, slippery shoes, a MISTAKE...on and on.. It's that simple... People are trying to help you from finding this out the hard way.. With luck you won't... However if you should be so unfortunate as to find yourself on the ground getting pwned..at that moment you'll think of this post... :D

The old Chinese traditions you seem to hold so highly advocate paying attention to your seniors... We are they.. Ignore our warnings at your own peril. I don’t think you’ll find one other regular around here who would support your “good WCK doesn’t go down” theory.. That should tell you something—the fact that it doesn’t just speaks to your “mindset” or lack thereof.

What about your teacher?

Does he also espouse this idea of good WCK does not go down? If so, he must have just arrived from the late 80s in a time machine.. I'd find it hard to believe your teacher would be pointing you in this reckless direction training-wise.....

Good luck,

t_niehoff

08-21-2007, 06:38 AM

I think it would be more accurate to say WCK (where 'WCK' is shorthand for the people actually doing it, rather than some abstract entity) doesnt have groundwork to a level of sophistication and effectiveness anywhere near that of BJJ, just as BJJ doesnt have striking to the level of sophistication and effectiveness as WCK. I dont see why there should be any shame in admiting that - WCK is close range chinese boxing - BJJ is modified Judo with an emphasis on ground control and submissions. Train both to be a complete fighter.

I think this is a very diplomatic way of explaining it. The stark truth is that WCK has little to nothing on the ground and BJJ has little to nothing in stand-up. Stand-up (free movement), clinch, and ground are three different aspects of fighting, and each require different mechanics, tools, strategies, etc. than the others -- as the demands placed upon us by each are very different.

I don't like the term "complete fighter" since in my view no such thing exists; I prefer the term "well-rounded fighter".

All that is true...but it doesnt relate to ground fighting - simply put whilst you can see conceptual similarites between the two (dont fight force with force, maintain correct structural positioning, look for flanking and angulation etc.) the actual movement patterns, techniques etc. are different. If you actually went and trained it with a good instructor and not just messed around with some JKD friends pre UFC youd find this out pretty quick.

You have highlighted one of the many problems with the "conceptual view" of martial arts, including WCK: it really doesn't tell you anything significant. All it does is make you think you have answers when you really don't.

How is that cheating? - life is short - why try and figure out how to construct a single shot musket from an old manuscript when you can just go out and get yourself an M16?

He believes it is "cheating" because he is a slave to the traditional mindset.

WCK is a skill set, a tool box. But those tools are only useful in a certain situation/context. We develop them by working (fighting) in that specific situation/context. Outside of that situation/context, WCK is a liability. It's the same with boxing -- a great stand-up method, but on the ground boxing training simply won't provide you with the skills/tools you need.

Here is another example of your lack of understanding - strangulation e.g. RNC from the back is probably the most effective move for a small person against a large person and when done correctly requires the use of almost no force - moreover no matter how strong someone is its virtually impossible to defend ionce on and will put them to sleep in 5 - 10 secs.

You are quite correct.

And, his statement once again demonstrates the problems with the "conceptual view" -- he argues from a conceptual position (the concept or theory being "don't use strength against strength") about how we "should" to fight. One of the problems with that is that even if the "concept" is a valid one, his understanding of what that "concept" means will be determined by his fighting skill level. This is true of all the "concepts". Someone with a low fighting skill level, regardless of their "time in" WCK or who their teacher is or their title, is a beginner and will have a beginner's understanding. And a beginner's understanding is typically wrong, or at the very least, incomplete. So trying to adhere to a poorly understood "concept" is not a recipe for success.

BJJ guys dont attempt to get into the guard - you just use it if you get taken down - as its the best worst position in a street fight since it gives you the chance to strike, submit, sweep and stand up unlike any of the other bottom positions.

Exactly.

Once again this underscores the limitations of drawing conclusions about fighting when you lack genuine experience.

No simply bucking doesnt work - it just wastes your energy and is the hallmark of a white belt spaz - if you got some proper training youd find the correct way. I can get any untrained person - no matter what size and escape from any pin in under 5 secs using the correct BJJ principles.

"Bucking" (bridging or upa) is a very natural -- almost hard-wired -- way people use to get someone pinning them off. Beginner's who know nothing will try to do it. But they will do it in a way that isn't efficient (minimizes energy expenditure) or effective (it won't be very high percentage). But the foundation of what will become the skill is there. And this is IMO a very significant point: give a person a task (in this case escaping from the mount), have him try to do it enough, and he will find the optimal solution. BJJ fighters have learned from experience over time how to tweak the bucking to make it maximally efficient and effective -- they have turned the natural solution of that task into a skill, a skill that can be learned, developed, and used successfully. And this didn't start or begin with a "concept" but with a task, and the solution didn't come from a "concept" but from experience.

Byond1 says that looking to other disciplines is "cheating". He would, I guess, rather spend all kinds of time trying to learn and develop decent bridging (and other escapes) by himself using "WCK" (?), when he could simply go to someone who already had developed that skill to a remarkably high level and take advantage of their experience to have them teach him the skill.

forever young

08-21-2007, 11:43 AM

Hi all well 1st off i would like to respond to k gledhill and the answer is yes seung ma toi ma is one of if not the most important concepts and drills within wing chun, imo this is how we learn to utilize our mass and lock our torso so we can withstand pressure without leaning to far off balance, and as for chisau king as i was reading your posts (especially re chokes) i had to chuckle at your complete lack of understanding and was all set out to reply but as i scrolled down saw nick forrer had pretty much said all i was going to so i will refer you to his response and infact i will tell you of a story involving my son,

one of the first things my son learned was the rear naked choke (mata leao) and was with some friends, now my son is 13 years old and while with these friend some bigger boy came over and started bullying one of the said friends, my son told this boy who was pushing his friend about to ahem 'go away' well boy swings for son, son ducks under punch finds himself at back and proceeds to choke said boy with rnc, when i taught him this choke i had always stressed when they go limp let go, so wife says phone son, i phone son and hes all breathless and running away and proceeds to tell me how he choked out boy, now i am obviously crapping myself thinking what have you done, he says "but l let him go when he went limp" im paniking now saying "are you sure he got up?" son says "yes as i was running away i saw him getting up" " are you sure" i say "yes dad he says"
so i learned that you have to be very careful as to what you teach children as if they actually have to use it it could have serious consequences, or as i put it you have to be careful because if you give a child a weapon to defend himself he might actaully use it!!!!:eek:

i illustrate this story not to tell you my sons a bad ass or bjj is the deadly merely to point out that a correctly applied choke will put anyone to sleep with little to no effort against much larger people (he has actually caught me in a couple while rolling and im telling you he could put me to sleep in seconds!:o:p

Here is another example of your lack of understanding - strangulation e.g. RNC from the back is probably the most effective move for a small person against a large person and when done correctly requires the use of almost no force - moreover no matter how strong someone is its virtually impossible to defend ionce on and will put them to sleep in 5 - 10 secs.

How is that cheating? - life is short - why try and figure out how to construct a single shot musket from an old manuscript when you can just go out and get yourself an M16? i would just like to add why reinvent the wheel (you are just making it square anyway ;) )

BJJ guys dont attempt to get into the guard - you just use it if you get taken down - as its the best worst position in a street fight since it gives you the chance to strike, submit, sweep and stand up unlike any of the other bottom positions.
i have quoted the above for truth and as it saves me from saying the same thing.
guard is something you find yourself in NOT something you 'pull' and as a WC/BJJ guy i would furthermore add that my priority would ALWAYS be trying to gain top position and smashing the grannie out of you NOT submitting you which is the aim of all bjj guys, on a side note my instructor last night was showing some interesting stuff regarding vale tudo (which means ANYTHING GOES) and was pointing out that for example when applying a triange there are some awesome kicks/stomps to the head/neck as you swing the leg over so even when applying a submission i would be kicking you in the head!!!!!
also to adress byond 1, i stand corrected yip man wing chun has no ground work i cant speak for other lineages altho i seriously doubt its as effective as bjj purely on the basis i can fix my car but im sure a mechanic can fix it better/faster because hes a specialist and as for trips/throws/standing grappling/clinch work i would agree wing chun does include this and i have learned some interesting stuff with regards to this altho again i would seriously doubt its up to the same level as say judo or greco again because of specializing. to me wing chun is an effective STRIKING system at the range it works best in, come out of that range and while im sure you can make up some stuff regarding wing chun you will generally find something else will specialize in that area so (as wing chun teaches me to TRY and be efficient )i would be better spent practising that which wing chun specializes and going to a specialist for example ground or kicks (mt perhaps) or if i wanted to learn how to backflip i would learn gymnastics NOt try and 'extrapolate' backflips from wing chun

forever young

08-21-2007, 12:01 PM

i would also just like to add that by and large the attitudes i have witnessed during the course of this thread have been both refreshing and encouraging and i thank all (even you chisau king = who i would love to oneday spar/chisau with :D)

Ultimatewingchun

08-21-2007, 01:01 PM

"also to adress byond 1, i stand corrected yip man wing chun has no ground work i cant speak for other lineages altho i seriously doubt its as effective as bjj purely on the basis i can fix my car but im sure a mechanic can fix it better/faster because hes a specialist and as for trips/throws/standing grappling/clinch work i would agree wing chun does include this and i have learned some interesting stuff with regards to this altho again i would seriously doubt its up to the same level as say judo or greco again because of specializing." (fy)

***ABSOLUTELY RIGHT....and let's not forget catch wrestling, sambo, etc. But the points are well taken. Have been saying this for years now.

......................

"...to me wing chun is an effective STRIKING system AT THE RANGE IT WORKS BEST IN, come out of that range and while im sure you can make up some stuff regarding wing chun you will generally find something else will specialize in that area. (fy)

***BEAUTIFUL ANALYSIS AGAIN...and yes, the caps and bold were my addition to forever young's quote. Ditto the part about saying this for years, ie.- boxing hands at longer range.

.........................

"...(as wing chun teaches me to TRY and be efficient ) i would be better spent practising that which wing chun specializes and going to a specialist for example ground or kicks (mt perhaps) or if i wanted to learn how to backflip i would learn gymnastics NOt try and 'extrapolate' backflips from wing chun." (fy)

***WHILE I DIDN'T SEE as much wing chun as I would have liked to on the vids posted (but that's a matter of either preference, individual skill level, or perhaps even specific realistic wing chun training that can vary from teacher-to-teacher and lineage-to-lineage)...nonetheless fy makes another great overall point here. Wing Chun specializes in close quarter standup striking and kicking - but mostly striking. It's never going to be famous for it's clinch work and locks - COMPARED TO OTHER MAINLY GRAPPLING BASED SYSTEMS....and it's never going to be famous (read that to mean "as efficient as") other systems that EMPHASIZE longer range kicking, use of elbows and knees in the clinch, etc.

There are SOME elbows, knees, long range kicks, long range attack strategies, etc. to be found in various parts of the wing chun world - but not to the extant as in other non-wing chun systems.

And that's the whole point.

t_niehoff

08-21-2007, 02:15 PM

***WHILE I DIDN'T SEE[/B] as much wing chun as I would have liked to on the vids posted (but that's a matter of either preference, individual skill level, or perhaps even specific realistic wing chun training that can vary from teacher-to-teacher and lineage-to-lineage)...nonetheless fy makes another great overall point here. Wing Chun specializes in close quarter standup striking and kicking - but mostly striking. It's never going to be famous for it's clinch work and locks - COMPARED TO OTHER MAINLY GRAPPLING BASED SYSTEMS....and it's never going to be famous (read that to mean "as efficient as") other systems that EMPHASIZE longer range kicking, use of elbows and knees in the clinch, etc.

There are SOME elbows, knees, long range kicks, long range attack strategies, etc. to be found in various parts of the wing chun world - but not to the extant as in other non-wing chun systems.

And that's the whole point.

I wonder sometimes if folks even bother with questioning things like why all our traditional drills are essentially *contact* drills, why our tools are contact tools, etc. WCK is for fighting while in contact. In contact. Attached fighting. Controlling while hitting. If someone boiled WCK down to its essence, that would be it: controlling while hitting. So it's not just a striking art, since that is only part of it. There is also that controlling aspect. You don't control with strikes; you control via sustained contact, i.e., grappling. You control in a clinch. Not the body-to-body clinch of greco, but a clinch nonetheless. If you are attached while in stand-up and trying to control the other guy, you are in a clinch.

Of course, you can always do WCK kickboxing and throw out all the drills/tools of WCK aside. :)

byond1

08-21-2007, 04:37 PM

""I think it would be more accurate to say WCK doesnt have groundwork to a level of sophistication and effectiveness anywhere near that of BJJ, just as BJJ doesnt have striking to the level of sophistication and effectiveness as WCK. I dont see why there should be any shame in admiting that - WCK is close range chinese boxing - BJJ is modified Judo with an emphasis on ground control and submissions. Train both to be a comp""- NF

+++Thats stating the obvious and a waste of time. Obviously a striking art is better at striking and a grappling art is better at grappling. That is neither here nor there in relation to my post, which was simply there are branchs of WCK that include all the varous ranges. Period. You simply want to argue about something.

There is no shame in admiting BJJ is better on the ground, and odd you would feel the need to say that. The effectivness is something that was never came up in my post, which you were responding to, so dont color what i said with what you ~think~ i said. Thanks in advance.

All that is true...but it doesnt relate to ground fighting - NS

+++Wrong. Everything i stated ~IS~ the reason WCK can be used "Striking, Kicking, Kum Na and Sot gow". Look, theres no shame in admiting YOUR WCK is simply missing components. Thats fine.

"" simply put whilst you can see conceptual similarites between the two (dont fight force with force, maintain correct structural positioning, look for flanking and angulation etc.) the actual movement patterns, techniques etc. are different.- NF

+++ The patterns and techniques may be differant for what ~YOU~ do. Dont tell me what I do or dont do. The movements my WCK uses and concepts and principles, are the exact same for striking as I use for locking, and all other areas

If you actually went and trained it with a good instructor and not just messed around with some JKD friends pre UFC youd find this out pretty quick.-NF

+++ I dont need to learn other arts, as my ~WCK~ has the answer. And I said ~I Started~ preasure testing and training with other MA, pre UFC - meaning I have done it since than. I have regular workout partners who are grapplers and BJJ guys. But again, i look for the WCK answer.

"How is that cheating? - life is short - why try and figure out how to construct a single shot musket from an old manuscript when you can just go out and get yourself an M16?" - NF

+++Actualy why do you care what I personaly feel? Why waste your time even making this statement? If i choose to look for a WCK answer thats my buisness. If you choose to learn outside the art because your WCK is lacking thats your buisness.

It cheating because WCK has the answer. I only have to open myself to it. If I was a sports fighter I would agree with you, as time is money. But I train to fight in the streets and learning MA is a life long journey.

""BJJ guys dont attempt to get into the guard - you just use it if you get taken down"" NF

+++Wrong again. You cant make blanket statements like this. Some BJJ uses tackets to get the person into their guard so they can submit them or break a limb. Its a typcial move when one is over powered in the clinch.

""Here is another example of your lack of understanding - strangulation e.g. RNC from the back is probably the most effective move for a small person against a large person and when done correctly requires the use of almost no force - moreover no matter how strong someone is its virtually impossible to defend ionce on and will put them to sleep in 5 - 10 secs" _ NF

+++ First off its not my idea, its the idea of my WCK system. Second - real time experiance supports it to me. Observe ANY NHB or MMA - once someone gets a rear naked or any form of strangulation, if they dont put the opponent away, they expend most of their energy. Only the very tops guys dont. I have trained using chokes in training, and they are an extremly poor initial attack as. The only way they are logical in the street is after you have softend up the opponent. But again, you like Terrance, confuse sports with reality.

""No simply bucking doesnt work - it just wastes your energy and is the hallmark of a white belt spaz - if you got some proper training youd find the correct way. I can get any untrained person - no matter what size and escape from any pin in under 5 secs using the correct BJJ principles. "" - NF

+++ I clearly stated this was the one position i was still new to. Yah?? I have spent years working on each area, and recently have gone to fill in my weaklinks. This was the one I was most uncomfortable with. Obiously MA is a work in progress. Or did you spontaniously know how to do every position?

B

Nick Forrer

08-21-2007, 05:51 PM

Brian

Ive obviously hit a nerve as you have now resorted to ad hominem attacks. A shame since it shows you dont have enough confidence in what you are arguing to keep to the topic.

I could pick your post apart again but it wouldnt make any difference - youd still ignore what I tell you even though its the truth since your ego doesnt like to hear it (and you tell Hendrik off for having an ego!). Another shame since I think you have done a good job with the wing chun pedia.

All you have shown in these posts is that you are clueless about grappling - sorry but being shown 'white crane steals the fox' by your internet sifu doesnt equate to having an idea about effective ground fighting. This is evidenced for example by your not really understanding the differences and relative merits of rubber guard, closed guard or open guard as it pertains to NHB or any other arena.

I could go on but I have better things to do. Any one who knows about grappling (beyond watching a few UFC fights and thinking they know whats going on) will see your grappling posts for what they are - nonsense e.g. the strangulation comments.

Heres a tutorial - youll learn about chokes and also open guard if you watch carefully

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo82IQCwSCE

Edmund

08-21-2007, 06:19 PM

I'd have to agree with Nick on the chokes.
They don't require much strength at all. You aren't trying to rip their head off.
It may take time to put on/ get it into position if the opponent knows how to defend but that doesn't necessarily require much strength.

byond1

08-21-2007, 07:20 PM

NF -
Sorry you havnt hit a nerve. I just dont like people who have elitist mentality and are pompous. If you had actualy read and understood my post, I simply stated that others shouldnt make blanket statements about what WCK has or doesnt have. I described what MY system trains. Nothing more. Why did that bother you and hit a nerve? Why did that motivate you to be rude?? If i said "my WCK trains the use of purple shoes which magicaly can stop a take down" - Why would that matter to you? Why would you feel the need to tell me im wrong? When Im not wrong. If its right for me, its right for me. Wouldnt it be more productive to explain your view and your experiance instead of trying to force it as law, and suggest your experiance is greater than others?

I actually have very little ego as those that know me, understand. Im sure it makes you feel important sitting in judgement just like TN. The truth shines through in your post, as you simply want to mouth box and argue to cover up your insecurities.

The fact you appreciate the WCK pedia is neither here nor there. Does that mean we need to share opinions? Does that mean we cant respectfuly disagree? Why even mention it?

And you dont know me, nor know my training. So dont pretend to. You have 8 years experiance, I have almost 20. Terrance is someone i actualy respect as he has 25+ years experiance. I mess with him because he is pig headed. But its all in fun. I also think Terrances tenasity(Sp?) is something to be admired and he is an extremly good at what he does. So dont let my messing with him strike a nerve in you!

People dont have to agree, but can still speak respectully, you obviously need to learn that, as I would have responded completly differant to you. I am combative. If someone wants to fight and presses me, I fight. But I dont start fights.

You are allowed your opinion on strangulation, im allowed my mine. What try to force your opinion as fact onto others?

I dont fight in NHB sporting events. I have fought in the street numerous times. I have also been injured in almost every fight. So try my best to avoid confrontations. The 2 are differant things. The fact you dont understand this simply shows your lack of combat experiance.

B

byond1

08-21-2007, 07:26 PM

Nick Forrer

08-21-2007, 07:56 PM

NF -
Sorry you havnt hit a nerve. I just dont like people who have elitist mentality and are pompous. If you had actualy read and understood my post, I simply stated that others shouldnt make blanket statements about what WCK has or doesnt have. I described what MY system trains. Nothing more. Why did that bother you and hit a nerve? Why did that motivate you to be rude??

I actually have very little ego as those that know me, understand. Im sure it makes you feel important sitting in judgement just like TN. The truth shines through in your post, as you simply want to mouth box and argue to cover up your insecurities.

The fact you appreciate the WCK pedia is neither here nor there.

And you dont know me, nor know my training. So dont pretend to.

People dont have to agree, but can still speak respectully, you obviously need to learn that, as I would have responded completly differant to you. I am combative. If someone wants to fight, I tend to fight. But I dont start fights.

You are allowed your opinion on strangulation, im allowed my mine. What try to force your opinion as fact onto others?

I dont fight in NHB sporting events. I have fought in the street numerous times. The 2 are differant things. The fact you dont understand this simply shows your lack of true combat experiance.

B

Brian you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to point out that it is nonsense as it is based on a lack of understanding on your part - which obviously comes in turn from a lack of experience with skilled people (no, rolling around with some JKD friends pre UFC doesnt count as experience worth talking about).

You dont like people who are pompous, I dont like people who claim to speak with authority on subjects which in reality they know nothing about

Nonsense example 1) chokes require great strength to apply and arent a good strategy for smaller people (nope see garcia vid)

Example 2) BJJ guys will try and pull guard in a street fight (nope name me one who has or would)

Example 3) You have improved upon BJJ open guard - which is no longer an effective strategy in UFC - with your own wck variation of rubber guard (Nope the open guard in MMA is for when you dont have a chance to close your guard in the first place (e.g. because he has taken you down but remains standing) so the strategy of keeping his posture broken with a lan gerk is not relevant to that scenario).

example 4) WCK mechanics and reference points are the same standing as they are on the ground (nope - its like saying if I can Ride a bike I can drive a car - some broad principles in common but essentially different skill sets)

In short dont write nonsense and then I wont be compelled to refute it - saves us both time:)

Edmund

08-21-2007, 07:57 PM

Edmund -

Thanks for your opinion. Its extremly valid. The way I have learned WCK, in general does not advocate the use of strangulation because of the strength required to hold the entire body position. A choke is more than simply the "arm around the neck". Alot of it is proper position and timing. MAny times one has to fight to hold the position to apply the choke, hence strength on strength. This is always truth. Im only talking in general, in my opinion, based on my learning of the system and my experiance training. Now I have seen other branchs of WCK that do train standing chokes under certain conditions, which have merrit.

Holding the back position for a choke doesn't require that much strength either relative to other positions where you are applying a lock or striking. The opponent will always try to escape with something.

You don't have to exert yourself much provided you understand where to hold them. If they are face down, you have the advantage of your weight down on their back. If they are turtling face down on their knees you can shift your weight combined with a few different holds to get them off their knees and still stay on their back.

You have much more ability to use your weight rather than strength from the back position because they don't have as much ability to control you when you're behind them. They can't reach back without exposing themselves to a choke.

byond1

08-21-2007, 08:42 PM

Nick

Thanks for trying your best to speak respectfully. I notice a huge differance in your post. But - I never said i was an authority on ground fighting, so your projecting again. I simply said ~MY~ branch of WCK trains it and I asked FY to understand what holds true for one branch of WCK doesnt hold true for others.

I never said WCK ground work was superior in that context than an art that places most focus on it. BJJ is the best for the ground. Wrestling is the best for Takedowns and keeping the opponent down. Judo is best for throwing. Tai Boxing is best for learning Elbows, knees and overall standup fighting. IMO

IF i was a MMA athlete, I would train Tai boxing, wrestling, and BJJ as they are best suited for that context, imo, instead of breaking down the WCK system into the parts which would be allowed in NHB. I think WCK needs to keep all its components to be effective. But of cource this is my opinion. Nothing more.
So I train my WCK to fight in the streets. I work out with BJJ and former OSU wrestlers (and earlier in my training with Tai boxers, boxers, JKD, Judo and Sambo) and use my WCK to find the answer. What is the problem? Fighting in the streets doesnt require the same components as fighting in an athletic event.

Obviously someone coming from the referance point of a MMA guy will have a differant opinion, than from someone coming from a non MMA referance point. Im afraid that doesnt make one outlook better or more truthfull than the other.

My further comments follow below with +++

When you said ""1) chokes require great strength to apply and arent a good strategy for smaller people (nope see garcia vid)"

+++ I never said this. What I said, was "~MY~ WCK SYSTEM DOESNT ADVOCATE IT< AS ITS VIEWED AS STRENGTH against Strength IN GENERAL. Remember all rules are meant to be broken if realtime dictates the need to.Thats one of the lessons of Biu Jee form/level training.
We dont believe in using any Kum Na or Sot Gow, without starting off with first with , striking and kicking and would never attempt a take down, unless the opponent was "rattled".

Im no master. So follow my systems methods. Once I have better understanding of it, perhaps i will branch off, perhaps not.

""BJJ guys will try and pull guard in a street fight""

+++I said some advocate this SITUATIONALY. I have several training partners that have very sophisticated Submissions, and when the clinch doesnt go their way, they do a take down of sorts, pulling me into their guard. I actualy think its very effective, for those that train to use it.

What anyone will or wont do in a street fight is on the individual. There is no blanket answer in my opinion.

"You have improved upon BJJ open guard - which is no longer an effective strategy in UFC - with your own wck variation of rubber guard (Nope the open guard in MMA is for when you dont have a chance to close your guard in the first place (e.g. because he has taken you down but remains standing) so the strategy of keeping his posture broken with a lan gerk is not relevant to that scenario)." - NF

+++Ahhh you are right. I misused a term. Thanks for the correction. I dont practise BJJ so my terms may be lacking. You are 100% correct. I meant the modified Close guard (rubber guard method) is superior to the standard close guard of BJJ, IMO.

Yes you are correct again, as my Lan gerk has nothing to do with an Open guard (i confused terms) , as you just described. I would say the Open guard, when the opponent is still standing, and you are on the back, is as good as you can get for that situation.

My use of a modified close guard was simply out of need. I dont have alot of mass, and need to constrict my opponent movements especialy if they are larger and stronger. Someone asked me if I had studied the "rubber guard". I investigated the term and found that I reinvented something fairly common.

"WCK mechanics and reference points are the same standing as they are on the ground (nope - its like saying if I can Ride a bike I can drive a car - some broad principles in common but essentially different skill sets""

+++Your opinion is correct for you. But your wrong according to how I practise. But with time comes understanding.

""In short dont write nonsense and then I wont be compelled to refute it - saves us both time""

+++Nick!!! You were doing so well, while regress??

byond1

08-21-2007, 08:50 PM

Edmund

Based on my experiance, Submission work found in early MMA, never used strength on strength. It was like a snake constricting the opponent, and when the submission was there, it was there.

Once guys like Marco Ruas hit, and they could do everything, everyone else had to cross train. Now that there are no more exclusive standup or ground fighters or exclusive styles used, things are very even. I notice strength agaisnt strength is more the norm IMO. As when all else is equal it falls down to natural attributes.

b

Edmund

08-21-2007, 09:33 PM

No one is going to breeze through anyone without using strength in a competitive grappling situation.

But you are going to see FAR LESS strength v strength from the back position. It's a dominant position.

anerlich

08-21-2007, 09:50 PM

Holding the back position for a choke doesn't require that much strength either relative to other positions where you are applying a lock or striking. The opponent will always try to escape with something.

I agree. It takes less effort to control someone and apply a choke from this position than it does if they are standing.

Classic BJJ strategy is to take people to the ground, as it is far easier to control heir movement from here. Multi opponent and populated scenarios invalidate this to a significant (though far from total) extent. It may still be better to be on the bottom with a person you have choked out on top of you in a brawl, or where onlookers may see the person in the top position as "winning" and may want to "equalise".

I notice strength agaisnt strength is more the norm IMO. As when all else is equal it falls down to natural attributes.

Marco Ruas was no 90 pound weakling. Someone like Marcelo Garcia would be foolish to try to fight Ruas with his fight - he'd be better using his own premier skills. In MMA evolution, Marco Ruas isn't exactly cutting edge any more, either, though he was in his time.

Most of our KF ancestors were far more pragmatic and less purist than late 20th century marketing would have us believe. When the evolutionary chips are down, the mongrels and generalists tend to have better survival prospects than the specialists and purebreds.

I've done WC for a fair while too, but I started my MA study with an eclectic system. That start ruined me forever as a potential keeper of the flame of "the one pure style".

byond1

08-21-2007, 11:49 PM

Hi Anerlich,

Your opinion is always welcome and I agree. Old school KF cross trained. I dont think there is a KF system that has avoided cross-polination. Hence I feel the modern view of TMA is skeward, and doesnt represent how things truly were back in feudal times.

True that Marco isnt cutting edge anymore. BUT at that time, he was the first true Mixed martial artist in UFC,IMO, that was full rounded, that fused everything together into one method/package, vs. someone that learned some striking, than some grappling, but didnt put it together and train it as one.

I have nothing but respect for Sifu Spain, who is by far in the top of the WCK pyramid, IMO, for realtime applicability.

I will think about what you and Edmund mentioned about taking the back requiring less strength.

Edmund - My statements only apply to my WCK and how I have learned. Not all WCK. And not all ground fighting. Nor am i talking from a MMA perspective. I cant compare on the ground to a full ground expert - but wont be playing their game and I have no dillusions of grandure. My whole point was to simply defend making blanket statements on WCK. And that my WCK has basic answers to everything. One only has to train them. Hopefully give others the idea to keep searching the system instead of buying the modern fad of running for a fast fix.

I think certain strangulation in certain situations is OK, but its situational. As I have stated, there is always things outside the box that occur. If someone turns their back to me and their dazed, in a real fight, I would have a differant answer to a choke though.

The same tools needed for MMA are not needed for fighting in the streets. Nothing I am talking about is applicable to MMA competition. Its an entire differant world. But I think any standup fighter who doesnt train Takedown defence, as well as some form of "closed guard' (Props to Nick for improving my communication skills), for the streets, is being unrealistic. And whats the point of having a passive closed guard? So "locking and breaking" are of utmost importance, IMO. To me, thats the bare bones core needed to fight random attackers and filling out WCKs weak areas but I dont think one needs to run to outside the system for answers. One needs to train with people with these questions, and than use the system, its mechanics, concepts, and principles to ~create~ their own answer.

In general -

In my understanding TWC has ground fighting. I have seen Sigung Cheung teaching someone, in a private lesson, a wide range of ground work, including take downs. THis was a very very long time ago, pre MMA, and goes to show that other WCK branchs include this type of training.

YungChun

08-22-2007, 12:04 AM

You don't control with strikes
Dead wrong.. LOL

The pure essence, “whatever that means”...as you say... of WCK is Jeet Kune.. The simplist expression of WCK is to simply control with a strike, a finishing strike, or strikes..

Funny you said WCK was something very simple to you.. I thought you understood—
you don't IMO... The “simple reality” you are thinking of is actually too complicated.

Jeet Kune

We 'don't chase hands' and 'the attacking hand defends' are two key examples of this ultra simplicity.. Bruce knew this and many other WCK sifu have discussed this, perhaps even Hawkins..

Ironic, the ultimate aim of sticking hands is to not stick at all...

Yes, there can be, too often, is, “more”, more grabbing pulling, sweeping, locking, clearing, issuing energy beyond striking, but these are merely to assist <if needed> the primary goal the "essence" IS STRIKING, or otherwise issuing force directly into the core of the opponent. This is how, in its simplest and also at its most advanced expression a WCK fighter takes the center, displaces the opponent's attack, controls his opponent and takes his balance..

As is being discussed on the other thread--strikes unbalance.. That is the key, to control.. When Ip Man or any other highly skilled player controls his partner in Chi Sao it is due to the strikes, done at whatever speed. People would suddenly find themselves falling backward when playing with Ip Man because of his *strikes* done slowly, taking their center, they move you, break your structure, they take your center, and center of gravity..

Edmund

08-22-2007, 01:01 AM

Edmund - My statements only apply to my WCK and how I have learned. Not all WCK. And not all ground fighting. Nor am i talking from a MMA perspective. I cant compare on the ground to a full ground expert - but wont be playing their game and I have no dillusions of grandure. My whole point was to simply defend making blanket statements on WCK. And that my WCK has basic answers to everything. One only has to train them. Hopefully give others the idea to keep searching the system instead of buying the modern fad of running for a fast fix.

Brian,

My point was that I don't agree that choking someone out takes lots of strength therefore don't avoid learning chokes for that reason.

As for the fast fix, no one opts for things to be fixed slowly without cause. The phrase "fast fix" implies that things aren't fixed well. I don't think that's the case if you're also conceding you are not as capable on the ground as a full ground expert.

The "fast fix" does quite well. I would suggest better than the slow fix when talking about ground fighting.

I don't think it's cheating to ask an expert for guidance. You may not learn it the same way as you would by exploring on your own but I think learning from an expert is very beneficial.

t_niehoff

08-22-2007, 06:55 AM

Dead wrong.. LOL

The pure essence, “whatever that means”...as you say... of WCK is Jeet Kune.. The simplist expression of WCK is to simply control with a strike, a finishing strike, or strikes..

A strike can't *control* -- it can assist in controlling, but in itself offers no real control. Something else is needed.

Hitting someone, and even finishing them with a strike or strikes is not the same thing as controlling them. Good boxers and kickboxers hit people all the time, they finish them all the time, but they aren't controlling them.

Funny you said WCK was something very simple to you.. I thought you understood—
you don't IMO... The “simple reality” you are thinking of is actually too complicated.

Thanks for your theoretical perspective.

Jeet Kune

We 'don't chase hands' and 'the attacking hand defends' are two key examples of this ultra simplicity.. Bruce knew this and many other WCK sifu have discussed this, perhaps even Hawkins..

Ironic, the ultimate aim of sticking hands is to not stick at all...

Theoretical nonfighters quoting theory - theory you don't really understand (because understanding only comes from skill, the ability to do it) - really doesn't support your cause. Controlling while hitting does not involve "chasing hands", and will involve having our "attacking hand defending", jeet kuen, etc. BTW, "attacking hand" doesn't necessarily mean striking hand, does it? ;)

Yes, there can be, too often, is, “more”, more grabbing pulling, sweeping, locking, clearing, issuing energy beyond striking, but these are merely to assist <if needed> the primary goal the "essence" IS STRIKING, or otherwise issuing force directly into the core of the opponent. This is how, in its simplest and also at its most advanced expression a WCK fighter takes the center, displaces the opponent's attack, controls his opponent and takes his balance..

The essence isn't strking, it is controlling while striking. Boxers strike. Kickboxers strike. Lots of people strike. But they are not controlling while striking. When you do that, it requires a different set of skills, skills that WCK, and some other methods, develop. Striking can break an opponent's structure, momentarily take their balance, etc. and all that goesinto the mix, but it won't work by itself -- at least not against anyone who isn't a scrub. The striking needs to be combined with controlling the opponent, and that control only comes from sustained contact.

As is being discussed on the other thread--strikes unbalance.. That is the key, to control.. When Ip Man or any other highly skilled player controls his partner in Chi Sao it is due to the strikes, done at whatever speed. People would suddenly find themselves falling backward when playing with Ip Man because of his *strikes* done slowly, taking their center, they move you, break your structure, they take your center, and center of gravity..

No, strikes can unbalance momentarily -- and they sometimes won't do anything (even a reaqlly good shot). This is precisely why they need to be combined with control. The control acts as a safety, it also helps the stike -- just as the strike helps the control.

Please don't even try and tell me how Yip Man did chi sao -- you have absolutely no idea and aremerely repeating what you have been told. And, chi sao is not application; youcan't apply the "lessons" of chi sao to the real world.

Ultimatewingchun

08-22-2007, 09:38 AM

"In general -

In my understanding TWC has ground fighting. I have seen Sigung Cheung teaching someone, in a private lesson, a wide range of ground work, including take downs. THis was a very very long time ago, pre MMA, and goes to show that other WCK branchs include this type of training." (beyond1)

***I'M ALMOST LOST AT WHAT TO SAY TO THIS...since I've spent significant amounts of time with the man since 1983 (10 years before the first UFC event). I believe I've seen pretty much everything GM Cheung has ever taught about TWC- including standing (and kneeling) arm and wrist locks, sweeps, chokes and strangles, takedowns (that were usually part of his anti-takedown defenses - and not an attack mode non-sweep takedown per se)...and I've seen pretty much everything he's ever taught about groundfighting, (ie.- escape from mount, what to do if you take his back, etc.)...

and while there are some nice moves here - the TWC "groundfighting" you refer to Brian is very minimal (maybe 3% of the entire system?) - and only provides just some very rudimentary standing grappling, takedown, anti-takedown and groundfighting skills. And certainly not high level grappling (or defense against grappling) compared to grappling based systems like catch, jiu jitsu, judo, Greco, sambo, etc. Not even close.

William Cheung has always maintained that wing chun is ALL ABOUT staying on your feet and knocking people out with hand strikes and some supplemental low-to-mid level kicking.

So while it's possible to make the case that wing chun does include some grappling per se - and especially since some wing chun systems have been influenced by it's brother art weng chun - the case cannot be made, imo, that wing chun (any wing chun) includes any high level grappling.

So why even make the case that wing chun grappling is sufficient - if one indeed does have to grapple during the course of an altercation? Against a non-grappler or a low level grappler type maybe - but against anyone else? This is not wing chun's strong suit.

Close quarter standup striking is.

If you feel that you have evidence to the contrary...I'd very much like to see it. Do you have anything on vid that you can share with us? (And don't take that as some sort of Terence-like bait. I'm sure you know by now that I harbor no hostility whatsoever towards you. Your work on the wing chun pedia has been outstanding).

Knifefighter

08-22-2007, 01:33 PM

+++That it isnt as effective as the rubber guard! Anything that controls your opponent more, is superior.Or is the BJJ open guard the new holy grail? Hence all the gracie BJJ stopped dominating NHB and MMA as they refused to evolve for the most part. Wheres guys like Marco Ruas did evolve.

All guard types are effective, depending on the situation.

Open guard is extremely effective and is constantly used in MMA... it is the main thing that keeps fighters who are down from getting KO'ed by standing opponents.

Closed guard is the old style Gracie guard, holding the opponent close, wrapping and arm and holding the head while using heel kicks to the lower back area.

Rubber guard as a game in itself is usually credited to Eddie Bravo and is a recent development (although many ground guys have used parts of it for years before he made it popular). Rubber guard is characterized by working to "Mission Control" , where one is holding his own shin, and going to different sweeps and submissions from there.

byond1

08-22-2007, 02:59 PM

Vic - there is no disharmony between what I said and what you said. Heres why. You state youve learned everything TWC has to offer in the ground game. I believe you 100%. You state its 3% of the whole system. Again, I believe you. BUT that 3% doesnt exist in most other WCK, so in comparison, TWC has alot of groundwork. Compared to BJJ it has nothing!! LOL

When i said "Wide Range' this included < locking, takedowns, striking on the ground, ect. All of the components not found in many WCK branchs, so look at it in comparison.

I agree 110% that WCK doesnt include High level Grappling. That isnt whats in question nor was anything I have ever stated. Keep in mind the Yard stick for what is or isnt WCK is typicaly H.K WCK. Since H.K in general doesnt include Groundwork, Locking and breaking, takedowns, ect, most of the community believes ALL WCK doesnt include these ideas. That is wrong, plain and simple. I have heard many accusations about WCK that does contain these idea importing them from outside the system. But anyone who learns it, understands, it uses the exact same energies, structures, principles, concepts, relationships, ect. I suggest others simply reflect on how they make blanket statements about WCK. As Sifu Redmond has clearly expressed to me and I agree - "there are to many variations of WCK, to make calous generalizations".

And lets me real, High level Grappling isnt needed for fighting in the streets. If Im using only my WCK, and can hold my own against semi skilled BJj and wrestlers, that is all I need for fighting in the streets. Look- we all known time is finite for us. We have to specialize. We need clear goals and focus. We need to have our training support our goals. Most Martial artists start with a base. Either Wrestling, BJJ or a striking/kicking art. Bread and butter as they say. You than have to understand what context you are training for - sports, or streets. Based on what context, you will have to place focus in differant areas and use diffearnt training and conditioning.

And even if WCK doesnt come packed full of High level grappling, thats unimportant. If one trains against high level grapplers, you will learn how to use what WCK offers. Plain and simple. And how good you become is directly related to how long and much effort you put into it.

B

byond1

08-22-2007, 03:12 PM

Yung Chun -

I have to agree. "Jeet' is a core concept found in most WCK, and is one of the core 12 concepts in YKS WCK.

Jeet applied can and should offer amounts of control. The core idea expressed, in my understanding, is not allowing the opponent to mount an offense. Cutting them off - while useing the most direct motions to do so. That ~is~ a form of control, and dictating to the opponent what they can or cant do.

The most basic and advanced WCK attack is Kuen Siu Kuen, IMO. It emobies Defence and offence are one.Its one of the first things learned, and one of the hardest to master and apply in true combat. It is the method of Jeet Kuen. If one can do this correctly, with proper timeing and positioning, you are controling you opponent.

I think many have limited imaginations, and cant apply the Concepts liberaly. The key is always remaining within the prinicples and context of the system. They have blinders on, and are to...set in their ways. Defining "control" as say only methods where your grabbing, pushing and pulling , is such an example. You can mentaly control someone prior to even the fight physicaly begining. For example I apply control, by getting my opponent mad - via verbal exchanging. I make them do what I want. IE become angry, slopping and so they come to me and start the fight.

B

byond1

08-22-2007, 03:15 PM

byond1

08-22-2007, 03:35 PM

Edmund

Understood. I respect your opinion. As the discussions here have sparked an interest in me , I talked with my work out parther who learns from a gracie purple belt in columbus, Ohio about taking the back and chokes. Just to share someones opinion that doesnt do stand up fighting - He said that many top guys, including Eddie Bravo suggest taking the back, and keeping it, is the hardest of all positions. My buddy also feels that context needs to be took into consideration - and I fully agree. He asked me when I refered to "taking the back" - was I talking about MMA, or pure BJJ or Submission fighting, or street?

For example, If my opponent gave me their back, I would take it, and use elbows to the back of the skull/neck while pulling their head with their hair if possible, this isnt something you could do in BJJ, hence taking the back and choking would be the most logical.

He did say that he agrees with my opinion about not using strength against strength, and that typicaly that is what happens in modern MMA due to lack of highly skilled BJJ guys (Guys that place alot of focus on it and have done so for a long time). He says the art of BJJ in his opinion is about using softness and position , while allowing the opponent to defeat themselves.

So really imo, the idea of taking the back, as well as strangulation, and how easy it is, boils down to it being relative to the doer and the opponent one is attempting to....well....Do. LOl.

Knifefighter

08-22-2007, 03:47 PM

He says the art of BJJ in his opinion is about using softness and position , while allowing the opponent to defeat themselves. .

That's great if you are much more skilled than your opponent. However, if you and your opponent are relatively equal, skillwise, there will be lots of strength being used... and if your opponent is more skilled than you are, strength is about your only option for keeping him from beating you.

BTW, most of the top MMA guys are at least at as high level at BJJ as your friend's instructor.

byond1

08-22-2007, 03:51 PM

KnifeFighter-

""All guard types are effective, depending on the situation""

+++That is true. My context will always be in the streets, and as such, and my lacking body mass, i have to control and contrict what my enemy can do. The rubber guard method i use with Lan Gerk offers me this, as well as sneaking it some odd breaks that are extremly unorthodox

""Open guard is extremely effective and is constantly used in MMA... it is the main thing that keeps fighters who are down from getting KO'ed by standing opponents.""- KF

+++Understood and agree. I dont see how one could improve that, as options are limited. I like how some guys use the open guard, and...sort of clinch with it. Not sure if my description makes sence? An example is - your on your back, your keeping the standing guy from controling your legs, and you have snached up an arm with a Larp from an attempted strike, pulling them twords you, attempting to take closed guard, and have jammed a foot in the other side arm pit or hooked the foot under the enemies leg, pulling and pushing it. Again -- constricting and controling the opponents body and position.

""Rubber guard as a game in itself is usually credited to Eddie Bravo and is a recent development (although many ground guys have used parts of it for years before he made it popular). Rubber guard is characterized by working to "Mission Control" , where one is holding his own shin, and going to different sweeps and submissions from there"" KF

+++Yes. Thanks for the clairification in terms. I personaly think Rubber guard is the next stage of evolution of the Traditional BJJ guard. For my purpose and how I fight it gives alot more control, and already gets my Leg up twords the shoulder area. As my goal is to constantly preasure my enemy by attempting breaks, and mixing it up with pushing and pulling, as well as using my hips to move left and right, and mixing in strikes to everypart of the opponents body. I do hold my shin and ankle , as my shin is across the back of the opponents neck. I dont use any leg strength though, i pull with my arm thats grabbing my ankle. This is something I found in Lan Gerk. I also use alot of wrapping motions and i guess whats called "under hooking", which is my WCK Sickle Hand.

B

byond1

08-22-2007, 03:54 PM

I agree, when all else is equal it boils down to natural attributes.

I would think the top MMA guys that use BJJ would be black belts ?

Nick Forrer

08-22-2007, 04:41 PM

As the discussions here have sparked an interest in me , I talked with my work out parther who learns from a gracie purple belt in columbus, Ohio about taking the back and chokes.

If your friend is learning from a purple he is probably a blue or white. Whilst I wouldnt dismiss what he says outright I would take it with a pinch of salt as he is still learning the game and has a long way to go.

Just to share someones opinion that doesnt do stand up fighting - He said that many top guys, including Eddie Bravo suggest taking the back, and keeping it, is the hardest of all positions.

Depends. In some ways its the last step in the traditional sequence of BJJ positions - i.e. takedown - pass guard - establish side control - mount - take back - so in that sense it does takes the most effort to get. But once there it is not the hardest to keep. In fact Its the most vulnerable position for the guy on the bottom esp. if he is flattened out face down - see Royce vs Hughes for an example. Also you can get the back from many positions without having to go though the traditional sequence of positions first and how to do this is a big topic in itself - e.g. you can get it from standing e.g. by arm drag, duck under, snap down etc. , he can give it to you when trying to get up after falling down (very common reaction for an untrained person), you can run around to his back when you have sprawled on him, you can flip him over from his guard and take it (e.g. by stacking him), you can sweep him from your guard and take it or take it by coming out to his side etc. etc.

My buddy also feels that context needs to be took into consideration - and I fully agree. He asked me when I refered to "taking the back" - was I talking about MMA, or pure BJJ or Submission fighting, or street?

The only differences would be whether you are allowed to strike from the back to set up the choke (which makes the back control more deadly) and whether there are tactical considerations e.g. multiple opponents on the street- Otherwise the technique and strategy is the same.

For example, If my opponent gave me their back, I would take it, and use elbows to the back of the skull/neck while pulling their head with their hair if possible, this isnt something you could do in BJJ

of course it is something a BJJ guy could do - unless the rules of a comp forbid it and that is the context discussed - you really need to watch some brazilian vale tudo fights or challenge matches - you see these strikes used all the time.

watch and learn - Royce could easily choke him but wants to cause him more pain and harm by striking

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

byond1

08-22-2007, 05:26 PM

Great sharing Nick.

Your are correct that is is young in BJJ - what belt im not sure, but he has studied for years. He puts in alot of mat time, and is extremly serious about his art, as I am about mine. But I understand what you are saying. Its true where someone is in their training, will give them a differant perspective and opinion.

""of course it is something a BJJ guy could do ""- NF

+++If you look at what I wrote I said "In BJJ' meaning traditinal BJJ comp, NOT mma. Even in MMA its sketchy how much you can get away with striking to the back and top of the skull, from what I understand. You cant punch in traditional BJJ or submission fighting comp. Of cource a BJJ could punch and elbow if it was in the streets, or in a comp. that allowed it.

Thanks again for sharing. I will think about what you shared about taking the back.

B

Nick Forrer

08-22-2007, 05:56 PM

Brian, you're welcome

If you have a real interest in learning more I would say again - go and learn from a legit BJJ guy (purple or above).

At the very least you could learn it in outline and then reverse engineer it and see where it fitted into your existing wing chun paradigm (it seems like you are doing that already). If a particular move or idea didnt fit you could then discard it. You'd save yourself a lot of time that way and still hold onto your traditional model.

Actually my wing chun (Chu Sau Lei) has key words or methods - guide, stick, link/delink, intercept, ask, float, evade, cross etc. and I see these all the time in BJJ. BUT the movement patterns are different. If they werent a good wing chun guy would have no problem on the ground without cross training - which of course is not the case.

byond1

08-22-2007, 07:14 PM

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 06:43 AM

Nick

I didnt know you were part of Sifu Chus School. I wish I would have known, so I could have clairified somethings to you. Now I understand, why you started responding negative to me, based on my razzing TN. Well I have nothing but respect for Robert, as my work is built upon the foundation he and RR built. And my parnter and myself have close working relationships with Sihing Alan. My personality is aggresive and im fast to fight when pressed, next time I will look closer at the cause and effect - effect. LOL

B

I don't think Nick (and Dale too) was responding to your "razzing" me out of some "loyalty" -- because we have both trained with Robert. He is responding to your naive, ill-informed, and incorrect views about (ground) fighting. He does this because he fights, trains with real fighters, works with some genuine fight trainers, and so knows what he is talking about.

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 06:59 AM

TN -

""A strike can't *control* -- it can assist in controlling, but in itself offers no real control. Something else is needed. ""

+++I believe this is true for you personaly, but this isnt true across the board. A strike cant control well, if its all arms. If one instead uses the entire body and proper positioning, in my opinion a strike can control, especialy in the clinch.

If one is all arms, "something else is needed" - LOL

Show me. Show me in fighting that you - or anyone - can control someone who has decent fighting skills with strikes alone. You can't because this is just your theory. And that's the problem -- theoretical nonfighters go off chasing how they want or think fighting should work instead of starting with what does work. If you go spar with some good people, you'll see (in a very, very short time) that you won't control them with strikes alone. And, you'll see why it is not a good idea to even try.

And it is not a matter of using the "entire body" -- another theoretical buzz-phrase.

When "in the clinch", the clinch itself -- the sustained contact -- is the controlling aspect. No clinch, no control. Getting in close and striking without clinching will not give control. Control comes from grappling (for lack of a better word), from sustained contact. The strikes can assist in getting and maintaining control.

FWIW, if you are in sustained contact, a clinch, you will use your "entire body" -- or you won't be there very long. ;)

YungChun

08-23-2007, 07:15 AM

Show me in fighting that you - or anyone - can control someone who has decent fighting skills with strikes alone.
You're getting more shrill with each post T..

Every time someone KOs or stuns, unbalances and then KOs someone else without "clinching" whatever *you* mean by "clinch" that is, which is far from clear.

It happens all the time in all kinds of full contact fighting.. Surely you don't mean that in order to win a fight you have to "clinch" first before you bash them in the face..

Some people around here have advocated either through video or words the idea of “reaching for hands” instead of attacking with strikes is the way to go, or what WCK is about.. This IMO is not what WCK is all about, actually prevents WCK methods from working properly and is a good way to get your head taken off by a decent fighter.

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 09:22 AM

You're getting more shrill with each post T..

Every time someone KOs or stuns, unbalances and then KOs someone else without "clinching" whatever *you* mean by "clinch" that is, which is far from clear.

It happens all the time in all kinds of full contact fighting.. Surely you don't mean that in order to win a fight you have to "clinch" first before you bash them in the face..

Some people around here have advocated either through video or words the idea of “reaching for hands” instead of attacking with strikes is the way to go, or what WCK is about.. This IMO is not what WCK is all about, actually prevents WCK methods from working properly and is a good way to get your head taken off by a decent fighter.

By "control" I mean physically control the opponent and his ability to make meaningful movement (attacks/defenses), not just momentary but sustained control. Because whenever we lose control -- even for a brief moment -- the opponent can make meaningful actions.

How you "set up" that control, the tactics you use, will vary depending upon what the opponent is doing. You can, depending on the situation, join/enter (dap) with a strike but you will, unless you are fortunate enough to end it there, move immedately to control. You can't expect you strike to "take him out." Most often it won't.

WCK's traditional drills are contact exercises to develop contact fighting skills (it doesn't make sense to do noncontact drills to develop contact skills or contact skill to develop noncontact skills). Boxers don't do these sorts of drills because they are not trying to develop contact control fighting skills. If you are in sustained contact with an opponent, you are in some sort of a "clinch". Chi sao represents, in effect, a clinch (unrealistic as it is) situation.

WCK's method could be described as touch (join), control, strike. Sometimes that happens in one movement, sometimes in more than one movement. WCK's tools are contact fighting tools.

Ultimatewingchun

08-23-2007, 09:45 AM

"Some people around here have advocated either through video or words the idea of 'reaching for hands' instead of attacking with strikes is the way to go, or what WCK is about.. This IMO is not what WCK is all about, actually prevents WCK methods from working properly and is a good way to get your head taken off by a decent fighter." (YC)

***YEP. "Box" your way in with horizontal punches to key places and once at a close range - CONTINUE to punch with vertical strikes and limb/body controlling moves as a supplement to the hitting, (ie.- use wing chun).

It's all about the distance between you and the opponent. ESPECIALLY evident against an opponent with a longer reach - but any sized guy with serious boxing skills also needs to receive the same respect.

If there is a basic consensus that fighting ranges are striking/clinch/ground...then my contention is - and has been for quite some time now - that there are also subsets within these three basic ranges.

And one such subset should be very clear, imo, to a wing chun fighter. It's in-between non-contact limb-to-limb range and a closer point wherein with one simple half step forward you could vertical fist punch a body or head target on the opponent.

AND IT'S GETTING TO THAT PLACE SAFELY...that has always been the biggest challenge for the wing chun fighter.