Chakras???

[TenTigers]

what is the Chinese (prefferably Cantonese) word for chakra? Also, what is each chakra called in Chinese (well, besides the dan-tien) what are the chinese characters for them?

[NJM]

Chakra is Indian and is practiced in Ayurveda, Yoga etc. The parallel is "meridian" "gate" or, like you said, "Dan Tien." Can't help you out with the Chinese characters though, as I don't know the words.

[lhommedieu]

I wasn’t aware that there were corresponding Chinese names for the Chakras. In Chinese medicine you can speak of different "zones" such as Tai Yin, Yang Ming, etc. These are generally longitudinal zones but can also refer to depth depending on your treatment strategy. There are 12 zones that comprise three major energy circuits in the body.

A method for treating energetic segments that correspond to the Chakras by treating front and back acu-points might look something like this, however:

Crown Du 20*
Brow Yin Tang Du 18
Throat Ren 22 – 23 Du 16 - 14
Heart Ren 17 Du 11
Solar Plexus Ren 14 – 15 Du 9
Dan Tian Ren 4-6 Du 6
Reproductive Ren 2-3 BL 31 - 32
Perineal Ren 1 Du 1

* on the apex of the body

For more information, you could refer to Jeremy Ross' Acupuncture Point Combinations, from which the list above was taken and modified.

Best,

Steve

[NJM]

I wasn’t aware that there were corresponding Chinese names for the Chakras. In Chinese medicine you can speak of different "zones" such as Tai Yin, Yang Ming, etc. These are generally longitudinal zones but can also refer to depth depending on your treatment strategy. There are 12 zones that comprise three major energy circuits in the body.

A method for treating energetic segments that correspond to the Chakras by treating front and back acu-points might look something like this, however:

Crown Du 20*
Brow Yin Tang Du 18
Throat Ren 22 – 23 Du 16 - 14
Heart Ren 17 Du 11
Solar Plexus Ren 14 – 15 Du 9
Dan Tian Ren 4-6 Du 6
Reproductive Ren 2-3 BL 31 - 32
Perineal Ren 1 Du 1

* on the apex of the body

For more information, you could refer to Jeremy Ross' Acupuncture Point Combinations, from which the list above was taken and modified.

Best,

Steve

Nicely done.

[TenTigers]

I am wondering if since chakras are dealing more with chi gung, that it would use different terminology than TCM? Chakra is sanskrit for 'wheel',AND CHI-GUNG USES THE TERM,'GATE' (MUN)(oops-caps lock) so I assume that there would be specific "gates", such as ming men, etc. So, what are the etc's?
TT

[cjurakpt]

what is the Chinese (prefferably Cantonese) word for chakra? Also, what is each chakra called in Chinese (well, besides the dan-tien) what are the chinese characters for them?

I could be wrong, but I believe that it's faht lyuhn (also know as fa lun to some...:rolleyes:), meaning "dharma wheel" - which makes sense, given that chakra means wheel, and it's originally an Indian concept, and since Buddhism came from India, etc.

this is based on some retreats I did about 10 years ago up at Chuang Yen Monastery with Abbot Shou You - it was a form of Vajrayanna Ch'an based on the Zhuenti Boddhisatva (http://tendirections.org/) that utilized a pretty complex set of visualizations while chanting, and it worked extensively with the heart chakra (and they were very clear about this being the heart chakra - you were even supposed to try to clearly visualize sanskirt characters spinning around on the circumference of the wheel as you chanted), although it worked up and down the central channel and had a component that connected the heart to the crown chakra as well; another aspect of the Indian pratice was the recitation of the "Om" in various different capacities

the correlates for the three named chakra's would simply be lowere, middle and upper elixir field for the 3rd, 5th and 7th respectively; also, the top of the head point I believe is referred to as 1,000 Gathering Points

FYI, Shou You has a huge facility center in Taiwan called "Ten Directions Center" - his teacher, BTW, one of his teachers was Nan Huai-Chin - http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/nhj/intro.html - which I think is who he got the Zhuenti Practice from

[NJM]

I am wondering if since chakras are dealing more with chi gung, that it would use different terminology than TCM?

Do the Indian practitioners use different terminology for Ayurveda?

[TenTigers]

haven't a clue, NJM.:confused:

[lhommedieu]

I could be wrong, but I believe that it's faht lyuhn (also know as fa lun to some...:rolleyes:), meaning "dharma wheel" - which makes sense, given that chakra means wheel, and it's originally an Indian concept, and since Buddhism came from India, etc.

this is based on some retreats I did about 10 years ago up at Chuang Yen Monastery with Abbot Shou You - it was a form of Vajrayanna Ch'an based on the Zhuenti Boddhisatva (http://tendirections.org/) that utilized a pretty complex set of visualizations while chanting, and it worked extensively with the heart chakra (and they were very clear about this being the heart chakra - you were even supposed to try to clearly visualize sanskirt characters spinning around on the circumference of the wheel as you chanted), although it worked up and down the central channel and had a component that connected the heart to the crown chakra as well; another aspect of the Indian pratice was the recitation of the "Om" in various different capacities

the correlates for the three named chakra's would simply be lowere, middle and upper elixir field for the 3rd, 5th and 7th respectively; also, the top of the head point I believe is referred to as 1,000 Gathering Points

FYI, Shou You has a huge facility center in Taiwan called "Ten Directions Center" - his teacher, BTW, one of his teachers was Nan Huai-Chin - http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/nhj/intro.html - which I think is who he got the Zhuenti Practice from

You are correct about Bai Hui (the top of the head point). Bai Hui means "100 Meethings" (when the Chinese say "100" or "1000" they generally mean "many"). Bai Hui is the meeting point of the Du meridian with the Bladder, Gall Bladder, Sanjiao and Liver meridians. It is arguable that opening Bai Hui allows the Qi of Heaven to descend into the "Yang" meridians and into the spine. One can also see how opening PC 8 on the palm and KD 1 on the sole of the foot allows the complementary Qi of Earth to flow into the Yin meridians and into the organs, and helps complete the circuit between the Du and Ren meridians. It is also interesting to note that because the Liver meridian (the most Yang of the Yin meridians) goes to Bai Hui, opening Bai Hui allows for the smooth course of Qi throughout the entire body.

The Chinese name the spine can be translated as "Heavenly Stem" or "Heavenly Pole." Another (complementary) take is that by opening Bai Hui on the apex of the body and by allowing the sacrum to soften and descend, the spine is activated and the connection between Heaven and Earth is created. Qi Gong practices are replete with examples of gently manipulating spinal segments to activate different energy levels in the body (or to put it another way, ennervate different organs of the body). As stated above, one might also use guided imagery to treat various organs and their corresponding energies, and there are other practices that guide sounds to specific organs. I'm probably out on a limb here, but I think that these practices come fairly close to how Chakras are conceived in Ayurvedic medicine.

Out on a limb again here, but by connecting the Heart chakra to Bai Hui one is therefore allowing this energy center to be influenced by the Qi of Heaven. But is one conceiving this energy center in Ayurvedic or Chinese terms? In Jeremy Ross' case I think that it is both - which makes for an interesting kind of practice.


Best,

Steve

[Vajramusti]

Classic Indian conceptions of the body(including various kinds of yoga and ayurveda) include the chakras, nadis- meridians, marmas- dit/hitting points.
Indian foundations for chi gung inovlves various forms of pranayama(breath/life force discipline).

Ayurveda and yoga branches off on their own in several areas. Ayurveda is a lot more detailed
in analysis of health problems, herbs and diet.

Classic Indian martial arts included key yoga asanas as part of training-thus the dunds-Indian wrestler stretches(the late catch wrestling great Gotch did them) are related to the suryanamaskar.

Indians knew about acupuncture and the control of energy flows as well though the Chinese progress on it is remarkable. In one of the early acupuncture books in English there is a detailed diagram/chart of an elephant's pressure points...for healing and directing in war(war elephants).

David Frawley has a nice brief book on the similarities and distinctions between yoga and ayurveda.

joy chaudhuri

[cjurakpt]

very nice points; if I may add a few comments:


You are correct about Bai Hui (the top of the head point). Bai Hui means "100 Meethings" (when the Chinese say "100" or "1000" they generally mean "many"). Bai Hui is the meeting point of the Du meridian with the Bladder, Gall Bladder, Sanjiao and Liver meridians. It is arguable that opening Bai Hui allows the Qi of Heaven to descend into the "Yang" meridians and into the spine. One can also see how opening PC 8 on the palm and KD 1 on the sole of the foot allows the complementary Qi of Earth to flow into the Yin meridians and into the organs, and helps complete the circuit between the Du and Ren meridians.
interesting how, when in full lotus, all those points are facing upwards...
re: the above - never thought of it that way (I am not TCM practitioner, so my knowledge is limited re: this) - veryy good food for thought


It is also interesting to note that because the Liver meridian (the most Yang of the Yin meridians) goes to Bai Hui, opening Bai Hui allows for the smooth course of Qi throughout the entire body.
and if I am not mistaken, the liver regulates the sinews, which are in charge of "binding" functions in the body - one more example of that, I guess...


The Chinese name the spine can be translated as "Heavenly Stem" or "Heavenly Pole."
yes! which is one of the "hidden" meanings of tai ji: the "heavanly pole" (not "supreme ultimate" - uggh) refers in the micro sense to the spine, and in the macro sense to the heavenly axis, namely the axis that the north pole star operates around: which implies that the "point" of tai ji practice is to unify these two, aligning one's own function - the "orbit" of the organs perhaps? - to that of the observable heavans; this is why one can assess taiji from a Taoist Alcehmical perspective; another interesting thing is to analyze the form itself andd see how it emphasizes each of the 3 elixir fields in each chapter, bringing the qi up, and how at the end of the form reverses it...


Another (complementary) take is that by opening Bai Hui on the apex of the body and by allowing the sacrum to soften and descend, the spine is activated and the connection between Heaven and Earth is created. Qi Gong practices are replete with examples of gently manipulating spinal segments to activate different energy levels in the body (or to put it another way, ennervate different organs of the body).
if I may suggest, I'm not so sure about the sacrum actually "descending" per se - I mean, it's pretty locked in place by the ligaments; however, I agree in principle: "empty the collar / suspend the top" (heuih ling, yuen ding) or basically allowing the occiput into a small amount of capital flexion (chin tuck) has a detonyfying effect on the sub-occipital muscles, which are largely composed of porprioceptive fibers (the largest concentration in any muscle, if I recall correctly), which I think creates a certain postural attitude that changes things all te the way to the lumbo-pelvic complex, and has the effect of decreasing pelvic floor muscle tone (which would make sense in terms of the whole metaphorical notion of "connecting" the two main channels at the perineum), which therefore "tonifies" the hypogastic plexi, creating an increase in parasympathetic tone overall, which then seems to have a synchonous effect back up at the level of the occiput via a few different mechanisms (neuromuscular, dural membranes and parasympathetic function at the level of the upper cervical vetebrae); overall, I think this reasonably creates all those feelings describe classically as feeling qi flow (warmth, relaxation, "openess", etc.) - which if you consider what the organism is doing during a parasympathetic stage certainly makes sense in terms of regenerative function;


As stated above, one might also use guided imagery to treat various organs and their corresponding energies, and there are other practices that guide sounds to specific organs. I'm probably out on a limb here, but I think that these practices come fairly close to how Chakras are conceived in Ayurvedic medicine.
do you mean tracing something like six healing sounds back to shamanic roots?


Out on a limb again here, but by connecting the Heart chakra to Bai Hui one is therefore allowing this energy center to be influenced by the Qi of Heaven.
makes sense;


But is one conceiving this energy center in Ayurvedic or Chinese terms? In Jeremy Ross' case I think that it is both - which makes for an interesting kind of practice.
well, if we consider that there was probably a lot more influence on Chinese energetics by Indian practice than people like to admit, I'd say it's a sinocized version of yogic arts, with the shamanic taoist tradition intermingled; I mean, has it ever struck anyone as interesting that the terms for the "muscle Tendon Change" yi jin (Mandarin) and yihk gan (Cantonese - more to the south) sound not dissimilar from yoga (way down south...)?

[mantis108]

what is the Chinese (prefferably Cantonese) word for chakra? Also, what is each chakra called in Chinese (well, besides the dan-tien) what are the chinese characters for them?

Chakra is "Qi Lun" (氣輪) in Mandarin pinyin. the center nadi (中脈) is the middle of the three nadis, where the prana moves up and down, is like the thread that "attached" the astral body to the physical body. The other 2 are Ha-Tha (sun moon) respectively. They are intervined with the center nadi by left and right side unlike the Ren Du which are front and back of the body. The center nadi is similar in position in the human body to Chong Mai (沖脈) of the Qi Jing Ba Mai (奇經八脈), which is like an imaginary line drawn in the middle of the torso from middle of the crown (bai hui) to the Hui Yin point between the sacrum and the anus.

Many of the yoga asanas movements (ie draw circles with the arms in front of the body from both left side and right side at same time ) are meant to attend to Ha-Tha, the sun moon connection and they almost always go back to the center connecting with the center nadi. Depending on the type of yoga, the Chakras have direct relation to the four elements or five elements (earth, water, fire, wind/air and void/space). Earth element is the lowest and connected with the lowest chakra which also has the least lotus pedals. So on so forth. These "energy centers" (or vibration of energy depending on which type of yoga teaching again) is quite different in concept to the meridian concept in that the chakras can be considered as "sentient beings" in and of themselves (that's why they have vibrations and all); while yue dao (acupoints) are definitely not "beings" let alone being sentient. So...

If the spine along with the Du Mai is compared to "Heavenly Column", then the Chakra along with the center nadi is compared to the seven tiers pagoda. BTW, the seven tiers are in fact just the one "wheel" with the larger chakras and lower chakras as the outer rings IMHO.

Nadis connects the physical body, astral body and beyond "directly". In other words, there is no question about its importance in spirituality. Meridians, at least in TCM, is of the physical world and it is argueably having anything to do with spirituality. This is why there are always debates about the role of meridians both 8 odd and 12 paired in internal alchemy.

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

One version of chakra:

7. Sahasrara (Sanskrit: Sahasrāra) 頂輪 - the top of the head, higher consciousness
6. Ajna (Sanskrit: Ājñā) 眉間輪 - eyebrow, mind or the third eye
5. Vishuddha (Sanskrit: Viśuddha) 喉輪 - neck, discrimination and wisdom
4. Anahata (Sanskrit: Anāhata) 心輪 - heart, love based decisions
3. Manipura (Sanskrit: Maṇipūra) 臍輪 - navel, dynamism
2. Swadhisthana (Sanskrit: Svādhiṣṭhāna) 生殖輪 - tailbone, unconscious emotion/desire
1. Muladhara (Sanskrit: Mūlādhāra) 海底輪 - tip of the tailbone, spiritual potential

Mantis108

[lhommedieu]

interesting how, when in full lotus, all those points are facing upwards...

That is interesting. Also - the spine is kept in an erect, yet relaxed and natural position, which dovetails with what has been said above.


and if I am not mistaken, the liver regulates the sinews, which are in charge of "binding" functions in the body - one more example of that, I guess...

That's right. One ramifcation is that if the sinews are not bound up then the joints can remain open, therefore allowing for the smooth flow of Qi throughout the body. In Chinese medicine the joints are also referred to as "gates," and their is a sub-system of "gate" points designed to facilitate the flow of Qi through the joints.


yes! which is one of the "hidden" meanings of tai ji: the "heavanly pole" (not "supreme ultimate" - uggh) refers in the micro sense to the spine, and in the macro sense to the heavenly axis, namely the axis that the north pole star operates around: which implies that the "point" of tai ji practice is to unify these two, aligning one's own function - the "orbit" of the organs perhaps? - to that of the observable heavans; this is why one can assess taiji from a Taoist Alcehmical perspective; another interesting thing is to analyze the form itself andd see how it emphasizes each of the 3 elixir fields in each chapter, bringing the qi up, and how at the end of the form reverses it...

Agreed. I don't do Tai Qi though - I practice Xing Yi Quan. There's a book that I keep meaning to open: Tai Ji Quan and the I Ching. Have you heard of it?


if I may suggest, I'm not so sure about the sacrum actually "descending" per se - I mean, it's pretty locked in place by the ligaments; however, I agree in principle: "empty the collar / suspend the top" (heuih ling, yuen ding) or basically allowing the occiput into a small amount of capital flexion (chin tuck) has a detonyfying effect on the sub-occipital muscles, which are largely composed of porprioceptive fibers (the largest concentration in any muscle, if I recall correctly), which I think creates a certain postural attitude that changes things all te the way to the lumbo-pelvic complex, and has the effect of decreasing pelvic floor muscle tone (which would make sense in terms of the whole metaphorical notion of "connecting" the two main channels at the perineum), which therefore "tonifies" the hypogastic plexi, creating an increase in parasympathetic tone overall, which then seems to have a synchonous effect back up at the level of the occiput via a few different mechanisms (neuromuscular, dural membranes and parasympathetic function at the level of the upper cervical vetebrae); overall, I think this reasonably creates all those feelings describe classically as feeling qi flow (warmth, relaxation, "openess", etc.) - which if you consider what the organism is doing during a parasympathetic stage certainly makes sense in terms of regenerative function;

The sacrum can move insofar as when it's out of allignment you can make an adjustment and put it back into place - generally after a lot of acupuncture and tui na! But you're correct: it's probably better to say that by relaxing the lower back and making a postural adjustment and allowing the tip of the sacrum to fall naturally into place (like a plumb line) the entire spine (and its associated tendinomuscular structure) is able to connect from top to bottom and back again etc., and you get those feelings of warmth, relaxation, openness. etc. It's elegant that slightly tuckng the chin is an anotomical correlative to allowing the tip of the sacrum to "fall" into place. It also allows you to start moving the spine in a wave structure - but that's another story.


do you mean tracing something like six healing sounds back to shamanic roots?

Well, I just use them and assume they're shamanic in origin! Haven't done much research on them yet. There're probably some interesting connections between the use of healing sounds Tibetan traditional medicine - in addition to the yogic influence.


...I'd say it's a sinocized version of yogic arts, with the shamanic taoist tradition intermingled...

Sounds good to me.

Best,

Steve

[cjurakpt]

That is interesting. Also - the spine is kept in an erect, yet relaxed and natural position, which dovetails with what has been said above.
yes - one of the terms in classical osteopathic approach is "easy flexion" (and when they talked about flexion, they meant a balance of all three spinal curves so what we now call lumbar extension was actualy flexion - increasing the lordosis) - this was the ideal functional "position" of the spine; to me, it's when you have a clear and unrestricted transference of ground reactin force giving a little upward "thrust" that the vertebrae and disces "ride" on top off - my teacher uses the analogy of a stack of pancakes on a plate and you give a little "toss", so that they all leave the plate and separate slightly; this then allows the cranium to "float", which is interesting if you think about the way the occipital condyles sit on C1


That's right. One ramifcation is that if the sinews are not bound up then the joints can remain open, therefore allowing for the smooth flow of Qi throughout the body. In Chinese medicine the joints are also referred to as "gates," and their is a sub-system of "gate" points designed to facilitate the flow of Qi through the joints.
ah - nice point, didn't think of that connection


Agreed. I don't do Tai Qi though - I practice Xing Yi Quan. There's a book that I keep meaning to open: Tai Ji Quan and the I Ching. Have you heard of it?
if it's the one by Jou Tsung Hwa, it's very much worth it - my teacher studied very closely with him years ago and much of his basis in I Ching study comes from Master Jou


The sacrum can move insofar as when it's out of allignment you can make an adjustment and put it back into place - generally after a lot of acupuncture and tui na!
well, there are a lot of viewpoints about whether the sacrum is actually moving; even when you use osteopathic approach to "diagnose" and "treat" the various types of sacral dysfunction it's still debatable - it's definitely an interesting topic though; actually, there is a whole range of osteo techniques for doing this, many work very quickly and require very little effort or prep work even (mostly muscle energy or counterstrain approach, although cranial work can do this too, just takes a bit longer);


But you're correct: it's probably better to say that by relaxing the lower back and making a postural adjustment and allowing the tip of the sacrum to fall naturally into place (like a plumb line)
plumb line? are you are belying your roots, if I may inquire? do I detect a hint of B.P. Chan?

t
he entire spine (and its associated tendinomuscular structure) is able to connect from top to bottom and back again etc., and you get those feelings of warmth, relaxation, openness. etc. It's elegant that slightly tuckng the chin is an anotomical correlative to allowing the tip of the sacrum to "fall" into place. It also allows you to start moving the spine in a wave structure - but that's another story.
elegant is a great descriptor for it - so true; luv that spinal wave concept - it just works regardless of what system you are working with...how does it come up in your work?


Well, I just use them and assume they're shamanic in origin! Haven't done much research on them yet. There're probably some interesting connections between the use of healing sounds Tibetan traditional medicine - in addition to the yogic influence.
it's really old - I mean, the idea of using sound to re-balance - it's very primal: sobbing when you are sad, shushing to calm your baby, moaning when in pain, laughing when happy (don't want too much heart fire, right? so you laugh to "drain" excess...)


Sounds good to me.
I always get nervous when I start agreeing too much with someone on these forums ;)

[lhommedieu]

if it's the one by Jou Tsung Hwa, it's very much worth it - my teacher studied very closely with him years ago and much of his basis in I Ching study comes from Master Jou

No - it's by Stuart Alve Olson. I haven't looked at it yet - it just looked interesting. The books by Jou Tsung Hwa on amazon.com look really interesting, however - especially the one on the I Ching. Any pointers on how to start studying the I Ching or any teachers in New York that I could contact? It's something I've been meaning to do for a while now - I'm a complete novice. I'm interested particularly on building my intuition to help my acupuncture practice re. "the energy feels this way, so here's where it will probably go next," or "here's an energetic block - what can I do to move it?" or "this is an energetic excess/deficiency, how can I achieve balance?" etc.


well, there are a lot of viewpoints about whether the sacrum is actually moving; even when you use osteopathic approach to "diagnose" and "treat" the various types of sacral dysfunction it's still debatable - it's definitely an interesting topic though; actually, there is a whole range of osteo techniques for doing this, many work very quickly and require very little effort or prep work even (mostly muscle energy or counterstrain approach, although cranial work can do this too, just takes a bit longer)

Firm believer in osteopathy and craniosacral work - and I employ quite a bit in my practice. I find they are more on the "energetic" end of a continuum that in my practice usually begins with tui na and then acupuncture > herbs > "osteopathy" especial "unwinding" > craniosacral > Qi Gong etc. but obviously there are going to be times when, eg. acupuncture is actually more on the energetic side, Chinese osteopathy (Zheng Gu) more on the physical side etc.


plumb line? are you are belying your roots, if I may inquire? do I detect a hint of B.P. Chan?

And I thought it was my metaphor! I'm sure I read it somewhere. Actually I'm a student of Tom Bisio and Bill Schettino in New York.


elegant is a great descriptor for it - so true; luv that spinal wave concept - it just works regardless of what system you are working with...how does it come up in your work?

Well, since it's the most natural and efficient way for the body to move [not in an intentional way to issue power in martial arts but in a smaller fashion like when you're say...walking - it becomes a template for what a healthy spine should look and act like. It's nice when you're treating someone with a wrecked back and when they get off the table they exclaim that they feel so much taller. Or when you get someone with no or little natural curve where there should be one and then later they look like they have a spine again.


it's really old - I mean, the idea of using sound to re-balance - it's very primal: sobbing when you are sad, shushing to calm your baby, moaning when in pain, laughing when happy (don't want too much heart fire, right? so you laugh to "drain" excess...)

LOL. I'm also an elementary school teacher. Ever listened to a teacher's voice? Listen for the admixture of Earth and Metal. Of course when they get home it's all Water...

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

The center nadi is similar in position in the human body to Chong Mai (沖脈) of the Qi Jing Ba Mai (奇經八脈), which is like an imaginary line drawn in the middle of the torso from middle of the crown (bai hui) to the Hui Yin point between the sacrum and the anus.

Interesting though how the Chong Mai acupoints travel up the Stomach and Kidney meridians on the anterior surface of the body. A branch of the Ren Meridian also travels up the center of the spine, and a branch of the Du Meridian travels up the lower spine before exiting to the Kidneys.


Depending on the type of yoga, the Chakras have direct relation to the four elements or five elements (earth, water, fire, wind/air and void/space). Earth element is the lowest and connected with the lowest chakra which also has the least lotus pedals. So on so forth. These "energy centers" (or vibration of energy depending on which type of yoga teaching again) is quite different in concept to the meridian concept in that the chakras can be considered as "sentient beings" in and of themselves (that's why they have vibrations and all); while yue dao (acupoints) are definitely not "beings" let alone being sentient.

I think that the analogue here in Chinese medicine is (roughly) that certain acupoints call to the various Shen associated with the organs (and thus the Five Elements). For "scattered" Heart Shen, for example, one might needle Ren 17 in conjunction with outer Bladder Shu points, PC 6, etc.


If the spine along with the Du Mai is compared to "Heavenly Column", then the Chakra along with the center nadi is compared to the seven tiers pagoda. BTW, the seven tiers are in fact just the one "wheel" with the larger chakras and lower chakras as the outer rings IMHO.

Similarly, the five Shen can be described as descending Kun Lun mountain.


Nadis connects the physical body, astral body and beyond "directly". In other words, there is no question about its importance in spirituality. Meridians, at least in TCM, is of the physical world and it is argueably having anything to do with spirituality. This is why there are always debates about the role of meridians both 8 odd and 12 paired in internal alchemy.

Certainly TCM as conceived in the PRC had little use for spirituality. But pockets of classical Daoist Chinese medicine survived and continue to inform the tradition in the PRC, and there have always been psycho-spiritual forms of Chinese medicine in Tibet, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc.

Best,

Steve

[cjurakpt]

No - it's by Stuart Alve Olson. I haven't looked at it yet - it just looked interesting.
I am pretty sure that I have it, but don't recall it content-wise


The books by Jou Tsung Hwa on amazon.com look really interesting, however - especially the one on the I Ching. Any pointers on how to start studying the I Ching or any teachers in New York that I could contact? It's something I've been meaning to do for a while now - I'm a complete novice. I'm interested particularly on building my intuition to help my acupuncture practice re. "the energy feels this way, so here's where it will probably go next," or "here's an energetic block - what can I do to move it?" or "this is an energetic excess/deficiency, how can I achieve balance?" etc.
PM me


Firm believer in osteopathy and craniosacral work - and I employ quite a bit in my practice. I find they are more on the "energetic" end of a continuum that in my practice usually begins with tui na and then acupuncture > herbs > "osteopathy" especial "unwinding" > craniosacral > Qi Gong etc. but obviously there are going to be times when, eg. acupuncture is actually more on the energetic side, Chinese osteopathy (Zheng Gu) more on the physical side etc.
classically the "old style" osteo work it more like tuina then not - very little to do with "energetic" - a lot of oscillatory, direct mobilization and adjustment techniques; stuff like muscle energy and counterstrain likewise are very structural though using less force; it became more energetic from Sutherland though, who used to obliquely refer to the energetic end of things (e.g. "There is an ocean of cerebral spinal fluid in this room"); second and third generation guys like guys like Rollin Becker, Robert Fulford, Jim Jealous, John Upledger and Hugh Milne really embrace that end of it (Milne especially combines a lot of cranial work with acupoint and chakra work - very interesting FYI - www.milneinstitute.com - worth checking out)


And I thought it was my metaphor! I'm sure I read it somewhere. Actually I'm a student of Tom Bisio and Bill Schettino in New York.
didn't Dr. Bisio study with BP Chan? or is it just my imagination; well, i;m sure BP wasn't the only guy ever to use that as an example, but he did like it a lot


Well, since it's the most natural and efficient way for the body to move [not in an intentional way to issue power in martial arts but in a smaller fashion like when you're say...walking - it becomes a template for what a healthy spine should look and act like. It's nice when you're treating someone with a wrecked back and when they get off the table they exclaim that they feel so much taller. Or when you get someone with no or little natural curve where there should be one and then later they look like they have a spine again.
walking cure is probably the most underrated form of therapy - get them mobile and have them walk to reinforce it...reminds me of the first time I saw Alexander Technique tablework - gets that effect very nicely


LOL. I'm also an elementary school teacher. Ever listened to a teacher's voice? Listen for the admixture of Earth and Metal. Of course when they get home it's all Water...
very true - I worked as a PT in public schools for the last 7 years, I hear you - what do you teach?

[lhommedieu]

(Milne especially combines a lot of cranial work with acupoint and chakra work - very interesting FYI - www.milneinstitute.com - worth checking out)

Done. Any excuse to travel to Santa Monica. And that 3D DVD looks mighty interesting. Maybe it's time to read "The Heart of Listening." Saw the last chapter - where he talks about "Window of the Sky" Points. Good stuff.


didn't Dr. Bisio study with BP Chan? or is it just my imagination; well, i;m sure BP wasn't the only guy ever to use that as an example, but he did like it a lot

It's possible - but most of his instruction came from Vince Black and teachers over in Taiwan and the PRC. www.tombisio.com


I worked as a PT in public schools for the last 7 years, I hear you - what do you teach?

Corona, Queens. Before that Mott Haven, Bronx. 19 years this year. I'm going to send you a PM regarding I Ching study.

Best,

Steve

[cjurakpt]

Done. Any excuse to travel to Santa Monica. And that 3D DVD looks mighty interesting. Maybe it's time to read "The Heart of Listening." Saw the last chapter - where he talks about "Window of the Sky" Points. Good stuff.

Hugh is a character: I highly recommend studying directly with him (I did the Foundation course up at Omega about 9 years ago - great experience); the story he doesn't talk about anymore is how he spent 15 years or so as a personal bodyguard / attendant to Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (well, to be fair, he did write a book about it back in the '80's, so it's not exactly a secret...); Heart of Listening is an interesting read - it will keep you busy for a while

[tattooedmonk]

I wasn’t aware that there were corresponding Chinese names for the Chakras. In Chinese medicine you can speak of different "zones" such as Tai Yin, Yang Ming, etc. These are generally longitudinal zones but can also refer to depth depending on your treatment strategy. There are 12 zones that comprise three major energy circuits in the body.

A method for treating energetic segments that correspond to the Chakras by treating front and back acu-points might look something like this, however:

Crown Du 20*
Brow Yin Tang Du 18
Throat Ren 22 – 23 Du 16 - 14
Heart Ren 17 Du 11
Solar Plexus Ren 14 – 15 Du 9
Dan Tian Ren 4-6 Du 6
Reproductive Ren 2-3 BL 31 - 32
Perineal Ren 1 Du 1

* on the apex of the body

For more information, you could refer to Jeremy Ross' Acupuncture Point Combinations, from which the list above was taken and modified.

Best,

SteveI have a variation of the 7 gates

Bai Hui (Gv-20) Hui Yin ( Co-1)

Yin Tang (M-HN-3) Qiang Jian ( Gv-17) or Nao Hu (Gv- 18)

Ren Zhong ( Gv 14) Feng Fu (Gv 16)

Tian Tu (Co-22) Daz Hui ( Gv-14)

Jiu Wei ( Co-15) Ling Tai (Gv-10 )

Yin jiao (Co-7) Ming Men (Gv-4)

Long Men (M-CA-24) Chang Qiang (Gv-1)

[lhommedieu]

I have a variation of the 7 gates

Bai Hui (Gv-20) Hui Yin ( Co-1)

Yin Tang (M-HN-3) Qiang Jian ( Gv-17) or Nao Hu (Gv- 18)

Ren Zhong ( Gv 14) Feng Fu (Gv 16)

Tian Tu (Co-22) Daz Hui ( Gv-14)

Jiu Wei ( Co-15) Ling Tai (Gv-10 )

Yin jiao (Co-7) Ming Men (Gv-4)

Long Men (M-CA-24) Chang Qiang (Gv-1)

Nice. A couple of questions:

1. How do you needle Bai Hui and Hui Yin?

2. Why Yin Jiao with Ming Men? Because it is an intersection point?

3. Don't know Long Men (M-CA-24). Where is it located?

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

Hugh is a character: I highly recommend studying directly with him (I did the Foundation course up at Omega about 9 years ago - great experience); the story he doesn't talk about anymore is how he spent 15 years or so as a personal bodyguard / attendant to Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (well, to be fair, he did write a book about it back in the '80's, so it's not exactly a secret...); Heart of Listening is an interesting read - it will keep you busy for a while

Any relation to the other Milne? That would make poetic sense.

Got your PM. Thank you.

Best,

Steve

[cjurakpt]

Any relation to the other Milne? That would make poetic sense.
not that I know of - I'd imagine he'd have mentioned it if he were; but he does use a lot of very salient quotes / poetry (Rumi, Kafka, Tragore) in Heart of Listening as examples of what he is talking about


Got your PM. Thank you.
you're welcome - if it's useful, great, if not, that's cool;

BTW, as we're not too far from each other, if schedules ever permited, I'd enjoy meeting up, perhaps to have a cup of tea sometime

[tattooedmonk]

Nice. A couple of questions:

1. How do you needle Bai Hui and Hui Yin?

2. Why Yin Jiao with Ming Men? Because it is an intersection point?

3. Don't know Long Men (M-CA-24). Where is it located?

Best,

Steve1. Bai Hui Subcutaniously 0.3-0.5, Hui Yin perpendicularly 0.5-1.0
2. Yes
3 It is a Midline- Chest and Abdomen point located between, I believe it is, ren 4 and ren 3
I think ren 3 Zhong Ji (central pole) could be used though.

[lhommedieu]

1. Bai Hui Subcutaniously 0.3-0.5, Hui Yin perpendicularly 0.5-1.0
2. Yes
3 It is a Midline- Chest and Abdomen point located between, I believe it is, ren 4 and ren 3
I think ren 3 Zhong Ji (central pole) could be used though..

1. Sure - Is your intention to open up the opposite poles of the circuit (thereby opening the entire circuit, assuming there are no blocks), or place more emphasis on Bai Hui?

2. Makes sense.

3. Ren 3 makes sense. Again - an intersection point.

Good information. Thanks for sharing.

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

BTW, as we're not too far from each other, if schedules ever permited, I'd enjoy meeting up, perhaps to have a cup of tea sometime

Sure - drop me a line. PM me or use the contact information on my website.

Best,

Steve

[tattooedmonk]

.

1. Sure - Is your intention to open up the opposite poles of the circuit (thereby opening the entire circuit, assuming there are no blocks), or place more emphasis on Bai Hui?

2. Makes sense.

3. Ren 3 makes sense. Again - an intersection point.

Good information. Thanks for sharing.

Best,

Steve#1 I guess this would depend on what you were doing.
#2 I hope so.:D
#3 :D

Thanks, I am happy to be a part of this.:cool: