Modernization and the 12 keys

[SoCo KungFu]

I realize this isn't going to be the easiest question to answer and that it is going to really be a wide open topic. But as the keys are sorta like the "rules" of the system, how do you simplify a question which can really apply to any part of the system? So, what are your thoughts on techniques and the 12 keys as applied to modern day fighting? Do you think still applicable? Are they antiquated to a bit? If so in what ways have you "modernized" the principle or do you adhere to them at all? Again I know this is in no way a specific topic. So please feel free to answer in any way you feel appropriate to the topic. If you wish to pick one key or concept or maybe a general theme applying to the system as a whole.

To start it off: Ou, Lou, Tsai....

As it was always taught to me, that these 3 are the most important of the 12. If you couldn't get these then the others would not follow along correctly. However I don't really think that's necessarily true. Especially given the more "boxing" approach most people lean to in the US. I think its sorta the same situation that Hung Gar guys have in bridging a boxer. Its just not that easy a thing to do. Plucking isn't really something I even try for anymore. To me I've always had more success contacting while moving into an attack, ideally closing the center while pressing closed the arm to seal their upper torso and moving right into a counter attack.

Also I like the intercept hand concept. I'm not sure on the Chinese, Tiao Chin? Basically intercepting an attack and moving straight into a counter with the same hand. I personally like it because its a "quicker" bridge and it still leaves me a free hand. And its a technique that also is used in Hung Gar so I use it sorta as one of my bridging points between the two systems to try to overlap my different techniques and in my opinion I think its easier to apply than the Ou, Lou, Tsai concept as it requires less contact, which is tough to get on someone whose skilled at avoiding bridging technique.

So what are some of your thoughts. How have you found continued success in various common mantis technique? How have you found the traditional tenets needed to be modernized and what did you do to be successful? Sorry again, I know this is really a broad question.

[quind69]

Hey Soco,

I reckon all those theories and techniques would depend on the opponent you are fighting. Some of them may work on some and not on others. For example how are you going to ou, lou, chai a boxer with good footwork and lighting fast jabs - you probably can't and in trying to do so you may get pummled. It is a bad habit to start chasing hands instead of letting things unfold naturally.

Most modern fighters and practitioners these days don't really block in a way where it is easy to use ou, lou, chai and other sticking and mantis hooking techniques. So one might want to avoid those certain theories and priciples.

IMHO Training techniques and drills should definitely be evolving for the better. Gung fu is the same, there should be new techniques, new drills, more open mindedness etc. Non-alive training should be chucked out unless one is doing it purely for cultural or health reasons.

Let me ask you how may Olympic world records still stand from the 1930's. Probably hardly any as things are constantly improving and evolving as people research more and come up with better training methods, ways etc I think all MA is the same.

QK

[German Bai Lung]

Just use Gou Lou Cai as offensive technique: get in close, get in contact, shove it aside and punch.

Also you can just deflect an incoming punch (move out of centerline with shifting your weight) with/out getting in contact and than punch.

The principle is still Gou Lou Cai!

[mantis108]

I realize this isn't going to be the easiest question to answer and that it is going to really be a wide open topic. But as the keys are sorta like the "rules" of the system, how do you simplify a question which can really apply to any part of the system? So, what are your thoughts on techniques and the 12 keys as applied to modern day fighting? Do you think still applicable? Are they antiquated to a bit? If so in what ways have you "modernized" the principle or do you adhere to them at all? Again I know this is in no way a specific topic. So please feel free to answer in any way you feel appropriate to the topic. If you wish to pick one key or concept or maybe a general theme applying to the system as a whole.

Indeed, it is difficult to answer in terms of different styles uses different keywords. But they all have a good reason of doing so for the stylistic but not fundamental differences. For example, Gou Lu Cai are grouped under Feng (sealing) in the Greater Meihua Line key words. Anyway, I am going to stick to the GML keywords as I comment on the subject.

First off, principle is principle. The fact that new technology appeared with time does not in essence change anything. You can rub 2 pieces of wood to make a fire thousands of years ago and you can still do that today. Are there fast, therefore considered as more efficient, way of lighting a fire? Definitely, but that doesn't change the scientific principle that rubbing wood will create fire. That is the same with the 12 keywords. The range or the width of techniques might change over time but the depth of the system is rooted in the 12 keywords, which is something like the DNA of every living being that remains relatively stable.


To start it off: Ou, Lou, Tsai....

As it was always taught to me, that these 3 are the most important of the 12. If you couldn't get these then the others would not follow along correctly. However I don't really think that's necessarily true. Especially given the more "boxing" approach most people lean to in the US. I think its sorta the same situation that Hung Gar guys have in bridging a boxer. Its just not that easy a thing to do. Plucking isn't really something I even try for anymore. To me I've always had more success contacting while moving into an attack, ideally closing the center while pressing closed the arm to seal their upper torso and moving right into a counter attack.

This is actually 2 issues - 1) the role of Gou Lu Cai and the role of 12 keywords in the system, 2) the relationship between Gou Lu Cai and the 12 keywords. Both issue can be addressed with practical drills and/or mathematics but that's a rather long story. So I won't go into that now. Gou Lu Cai is the core or the seed hand of Mantis. Every single techniques application of mantis came from this mother of all attribute building drill IMHO. It is compared to the shrimping in BJJ that all attackes and defense came out of the shrimping. If this is understood thoroughly, you will find the applications of mantis Shou Fa much more meaningful and there is a lot of cohesiveness through out the system. Anyway, the problem people have when deal with boxing is that they are taught in the "old way" that you wait for the attack instead of going on the offensive. Hook grab pluck is meant to be one beat not 3 seperate techniques IMHO. It's defend and offense together not defense with hook and then grab and then pluck to follow up.


Also I like the intercept hand concept. I'm not sure on the Chinese, Tiao Chin? Basically intercepting an attack and moving straight into a counter with the same hand. I personally like it because its a "quicker" bridge and it still leaves me a free hand. And its a technique that also is used in Hung Gar so I use it sorta as one of my bridging points between the two systems to try to overlap my different techniques and in my opinion I think its easier to apply than the Ou, Lou, Tsai concept as it requires less contact, which is tough to get on someone whose skilled at avoiding bridging technique.

Tanglang whether on the offensive or defensive is highly mobile and dynamic IMHO. From the GML point of view, doging deceiving leap shifting are used all the time in conjuction with all other techniques. You take the fight to or away from your opponent.


So what are some of your thoughts. How have you found continued success in various common mantis technique? How have you found the traditional tenets needed to be modernized and what did you do to be successful? Sorry again, I know this is really a broad question.

The modernizing that I have done is to use the 12 keywords to explain the ground fighting components which I call integrated ground fighting because of the integration of BJJ ground fighting theories, principles, tactics and techniques with classical tanglang ground techniques in what I do.

Just some thoughts

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Redfish]

I reckon all those theories and techniques would depend on the opponent you are fighting. Some of them may work on some and not on others. For example how are you going to ou, lou, chai a boxer with good footwork and lighting fast jabs - you probably can't and in trying to do so you may get pummled. It is a bad habit to start chasing hands instead of letting things unfold naturally.

Most modern fighters and practitioners these days don't really block in a way where it is easy to use ou, lou, chai and other sticking and mantis hooking techniques. So one might want to avoid those certain theories and priciples.



This thread has started off straight into the same problematic assumptions that sink all the kinds of Trad vs Mod discussions.

Since we start with the keywords themselves as concepts, we are comparing styles.

As soon as you talk about boxers with such good skills and speed that it's near impossible to grab their punch then your out of comparing styles. Unless you compared them with someone whose mantis skills were so good that they could grab those fast punches.

There's always this assupmtion that everyone you may meet that has trained MMA or boxing is as good as Tito Ortiz or Ali or whatever. You'd then have to compare that with a mantis practitioner who has equal physical prowess and training.

To me, it always seems like in the minds of these people that there's a teenage hobbyist who played forms for three weeks up against Baz Ruten ...and there's the 'proof' that MMA is superior. Go figure.

I've seen average guy try take downs on the street and get their punch or knee to the head they get dizzy and are unable to continue. Or they get bootf--ked by the opponent's friends while wrestling. Not everyone is a full time athlete like the UFC guys.

Grabbing in mantis works on several principals. If you know your distancing and the opponent has to move in and commit to a punch through the target, you can then grab it. If you've practiced it. Going all out but in pre-arranged routines - that's straight out of the book of five rings.

Anyway - it's my pet peeve ..if we are going to compare styles or old to modern, then we have to assume the fighters have equal strength, conditioning and training hours behind them etc. It's normal in fighting sports, matching weights and ranks etc.

Am I making any sense?

[mantis108]

When Tanglang training includes live sparring sessions at the basic training level and such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GMXlPFk1Nc

and move progressively towards open tournament for testing against resistive opponents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRhqyAxJN8&mode=related&search=

Tanglang's competitive edge is apparent, whether you want to settle for a school that never put it's theories and methodology to work or not, is entirely up to you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SoCo KungFu]

This thread has started off straight into the same problematic assumptions that sink all the kinds of Trad vs Mod discussions.

Since we start with the keywords themselves as concepts, we are comparing styles.

As soon as you talk about boxers with such good skills and speed that it's near impossible to grab their punch then your out of comparing styles. Unless you compared them with someone whose mantis skills were so good that they could grab those fast punches.

There's always this assupmtion that everyone you may meet that has trained MMA or boxing is as good as Tito Ortiz or Ali or whatever. You'd then have to compare that with a mantis practitioner who has equal physical prowess and training.

To me, it always seems like in the minds of these people that there's a teenage hobbyist who played forms for three weeks up against Baz Ruten ...and there's the 'proof' that MMA is superior. Go figure.

I've seen average guy try take downs on the street and get their punch or knee to the head they get dizzy and are unable to continue. Or they get bootf--ked by the opponent's friends while wrestling. Not everyone is a full time athlete like the UFC guys.

Grabbing in mantis works on several principals. If you know your distancing and the opponent has to move in and commit to a punch through the target, you can then grab it. If you've practiced it. Going all out but in pre-arranged routines - that's straight out of the book of five rings.

Anyway - it's my pet peeve ..if we are going to compare styles or old to modern, then we have to assume the fighters have equal strength, conditioning and training hours behind them etc. It's normal in fighting sports, matching weights and ranks etc.

Am I making any sense?

Not really....

You're making an assumption of the things I am asking...This is one reason why I left it to be such an open ended question. Another is because there is simply no way of avoiding a style vs. style argument. Unless everyone here doesn't do any MA what-so-ever and we just resort to the most natural reactions...which isn't the case...its a mantis kungfu forum. And with that in mind, I chose the most direct way to come to a common ground on which to speak of our different mantis. That being the 12 keys. Is it the same through every mantis? No, but its about as close as I know that we can get.

Anyways, I simply spoke in generalization with the boxer example. I simply wanted to start off the conversation. It was my thread afterall. I had to add something.

Now that out of the way. Its still true. That a MA which utilizes so much of the concept of contact, to have difficulty when opposed to a fighting method which either intently or in this case as a byproduct, has technical base which avoids such contact. Like it or not, its a reality we have to deal with...the skill of the opponent is an arbitrary detail in this case. I'm not looking at the people, simply the technical base itself.

Now to go with the example that we have been using in the thread so far. Can you pluck a boxer? Yes. But what I'm asking is, is there a better way? Is there a better way in mantis? So far my experiences have said yes to both. And it doesn't necessarily mean abandoning the mantis concept, so don't make this into me mantis bashing. Its a system that I have enjoyed for some time now.

But I ask because I know there are people here like Mantis108 with a lot more experience than I, so I want to know what they think.

Anyways to the point of pluck offensively. What has been the general reaction you have come to elicit? In my experience, it sometimes gets me into trouble with grapplers. i just don't like the idea of pulling someone closer that can wrap me up. Even if it is off-center when it works right. Thats why I like to move in and seal em off. I'd rather have em moving backward off their center as opposed to into me.

So what about some of the other principles of mantis? We still go a bunch more we haven't brought up yet :)

[MightyB]

I liked the sparring clips Mantis108. Not so much the non-gloved guys (looked like some kind of a rules restriction really limited what they were allowed to do), but I did like the gloved guys at the end...

Anyway...

I'd say explore the 12 keys for yourself- don't give up on them, just explore and find techniques that you really like. I know from competitive Judo and Sanshou that you just can't be really good at everything. It doesn't mean that a specific move or concept doesn't work- it just means that it doesn't work for you. I'd say that someone like Brendan Lai wouldn't have had a problem with nailing a boxer with Ou Lou Tsai- I couldn't, but he could.

Something I've found with mantis kung fu is that it's a long process. I think that we try to find shortcuts- there's nothing wrong with that- but I've had the pleasure and opportunity to meet some of the old school masters and their desciples. They're good, I mean real good.

Give it time- don't throw out the baby with the bath water just yet.

But that doesn't mean that it will work without hard training and hard sparring. You've got to train like a thai boxer. You have to work and rework the basics. Develop a couple of hard combinations and really work hard. If you're a bare-knuckler or MMAer, you could train to use Ou Lou Tsai. But you'd have to work on speed and more speed. You have to train to use it offensively and defensively. You have to train yourself to instinctively know when to throw it. You also can't separate the three essentials which are hand technique, foot work, and body positioning. They all depend on each other and they are all equal. If you aren't good at any one of those, no mantis technique will work for you.

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks for the reply Mighty....

Hmmmm.....I think maybe people are getting the wrong idea about the thread. I'm not giving up on the 12 keys. I'm not about to give up my mantis. I think maybe I might have given that impression...this thread isn't a gripe or anything.

I'm just asking in the opinions of different mantis fighters, has there been anything which you have changed and to what reason? Was it successful? Or, have you used the "traditional" methodology successfully in the face of what the "modern" fighters choose to adopt?

Because there are only about 900 different mantis systems, the 12 keys are the middle ground I choose to bring the issue. I don't know any other real way to develop commonality among the different mantis. There are a ton of these type threads dealing with other styles, mantis community though seems pretty content with their arts technical base as a whole at least that I've seen. Maybe because mantis tends to have a lot of close range fighting, throws, etc. it blends more easily to a "modern" frame?

Though it'd be a lie if I said I wasn't trying to learn something. That's why I'm here after all.

[MightyB]

Actually SoCo, it's an interesting discussion. I don't see it as griping.
---
I see the 12 keys more like combinations- Tai Sa Non Ding (mountain crushes) followed by Yi Ming Jit Don (Punch to the Face) then Ha Fu Tou Som (straight punch to the solar plexes) etc. It could be offensive or defensive etc... I like to think of Tou Shou (Intercepting Hand) as a bridge

In kickboxing or boxing- you develop a couple of good combinations. You use them offensively or defensively and you use the jab as a bridge.

Footwork and body positioning is the key in both- is the opponent chasing? aggressive? defensive? is he reacting to feints? etc. these questions you have to ask yourself in both.
----
I always ramble a little off topic, but- I personally believe that time in the kwoon is time to practice against other people. I think that 80 percent of your time in the school should be used on applications to reinforce concepts, controlled sparring, drills for skills, anything that you can only do when you have two or more people, because forms and calisthenics are things that you can do on your own at home. I'm not sure if people utilize the opportunity to work out with other people properly-if you get what I mean. If you spend 80 percent of your time doing forms and calisthenics in class- how much time does that leave you to work out with the other people and really master the concepts and applications? This idea of using class time to really enjoy the benefit of having actual people to practice against is how I'd modernize training.

[Redfish]

Okie.

Well. Your question mentions 'modern' fighting and how the keywords might change.

Can I ask you what are the differences between old and modern fighting? What is the difference between a guy meeting a bandit on the road in 1700 and fighting, and you meeting a mugger in the street today?

Assuming that in both cases they're going at it hand to hand.

[Sifu Darkfist]

First off, principle is principle. The fact that new technology appeared with time does not in essence change anything. You can rub 2 pieces of wood to make a fire thousands of years ago and you can still do that today. Are there fast, therefore considered as more efficient, way of lighting a fire? Definitely, but that doesn't change the scientific principle that rubbing wood will create fire. That is the same with the 12 keywords. The range or the width of techniques might change over time but the depth of the system is rooted in the 12 keywords, which is something like the DNA of every living being that remains relatively stable.






Tanglang whether on the offensive or defensive is highly mobile and dynamic IMHO. From the GML point of view, doging deceiving leap shifting are used all the time in conjuction with all other techniques. You take the fight to or away from your opponent.



The modernizing that I have done is to use the 12 keywords to explain the ground fighting components which I call integrated ground fighting because of the integration of BJJ ground fighting theories, principles, tactics and techniques with classical tanglang ground techniques in what I do.

Just some thoughts

Warm regards

Mantis108

Very educated perspective, the joint locks are from bagua, baji, tanglang, as well as the body positioning does translate well onto the ground, and can even in many circumstances reach submission on the way down if not incapacitation.

this i have found by regular groundfighting practice.

However, i think that the fundamental approach to sport fighter training in the tang lang system, as well as combatives are in need of tactical revamping.

the system is usually taught different to students then what is used in the so called masters forms and the techniques i notice disappearing in the high forms are the idea of defense or blocking and parrying.

With respect to all parties involved there are good things about hooking and it has outlived many other techniques, nevertheless the future of a tanglang fighter is served far better by using weapons as such and foresaking defensive movement altogether.

this situation is one that i have discovered through the tumultous reconstruction of the way cma fighters are taught. By no means have i covered all aspects but i will maintain that time and timing are of the utmost importance and if a hand moves it should have the goal of incapacitating the intended target.

Therefore a hooking hand that does not lead to a direct lock or limb barr or break for me is a wasted hand movement.
dian jin | sou mei? probably spelled wrong but one is brush brow and one is gouge eye, this dual sequence allows the very basic mantis movement to remain both attack instead of parry attack that the hook gouge represents (with the hook pulling the opponent in taken into consideration).

The closing of the gap must and will always represent the perfect opportunity to defuse the power of the target all limbs and body parts should be employed at disrupting the well being of the target instead of repositioning or setting up.

of course this is my interpretation of modern fighting. it is demonstrated all the way from divisional action all the way down to man verses man.

[Oso]

SoCo, you've already given my answer to a failed gou lou cai...follow them back in and seal...then I usually try to throw them on their head but that's just me.

what I try to get going in my school is simply to put the 12oz gloves on and go with the intent to use our combos and drills. sometimes we'll play where you can only use one or two combos exclusively against someone who can play with everything.

GLC turns into an exercise in sticky arms.