Mook Jong Question

[Lugoman]

I read somewhere that the ends of the arms represents where the elbow would be on an opponent, the reason the arms are so short.

So does this mean in a fight situation that we would be applying our techniques (pak, tan, bong, et al, saus) to the opponent's biceps and triceps?

[Nick Forrer]

No it doesnt mean that you should apply basic actions like Tan or Bong higher on the arm as a matter of course. Bridge contact is normally presumed to be forearm to forearm - hence the positions you adopt when rolling hands (although this doesnt mean you wont need to be higher on the arm in certain situations - the po pai section on the Jong is one example where you are deeper than the elbow).

[anerlich]

I read somewhere that the ends of the arms represents where the elbow would be on an opponent, the reason the arms are so short.

I have never been taught this, and IMO it is not a useful mental model to use for dummy training.

IMO treating the dummy as an unchanging model of human anatomy is a mistake. It's more a structure onto which you can impose various anatomical models. Sometimes the right arm represents the opponent's right arm, sometimes the opponent's left arm. The middle arm may sometimes represent an arm, at other times a leg. Sometimes the end of the arm represents the fist, wrist, or elbow. I'd say the first two are more common, with the arm itself becoming an imaginary forearm as Nick said, though sometimes the end does represent an elbow.

Your imagination defines how to use the dummy for effective training. Not the other way round.

[Phil Redmond]

The wooden dummy arms represent the forearms from wrist to elbow in some applications and the upper arm in others. Take one of your arms out of the trunk and you'll see that it is close to the measurement from your elbow to the wrist or the wrist to the shoulder. It's almost the same for all "average" humans. You make contact with your wrist and your opponent's wrist to move the arm from one side to the other. You use the elbow to control/pin the arm. The leg of course represents an opponent's thigh, knee, and lower leg.

[t_niehoff]

I read somewhere that the ends of the arms represents where the elbow would be on an opponent, the reason the arms are so short.

So does this mean in a fight situation that we would be applying our techniques (pak, tan, bong, et al, saus) to the opponent's biceps and triceps?

Good question. :)

I'll give my answer but with this admonition: don't take anyone's answer, including mine, as the "truth", even the things you read. Find out for yoruself, firsthand.

That said, the way I look at it is that it corresponds more to a "range" -- that if the opponent's arms are bent (let's say 90 degrees), then the application is to the forearm but if the opponent's arm is extended, then it is to the upper arm. And if you ask the logical follow-up question -- why would that be the case -- it is because of leverage.

I hope this gives you something to chew on.

[Chuanfa@sbcglob]

Have you asked your sifu? Im curious as to what he says.

[t_niehoff]

Have you asked your sifu? Im curious as to what he says.

What does it matter if he asked his sifu or not?

[Chuanfa@sbcglob]

What does it matter if he asked his sifu or not?

Im just curious. I finished learning the set a few months ago myself so I am not at all qualified to comment. But your post and Phil's post seem to correspond directly to how I was taught by my sifu and to how I practice the set on a daily basis.

Thanks.

[Sihing73]

What does it matter if he asked his sifu or not?

Hello,

FWIW my opinion is that one should always ask their Sifu when they have questions. After all, that is the person you are learning from and you should insure you are training as they teach. While there is nothing wrong with inquiring from other sources as well, in order to get a braoder knowledge base, it is, IMO, dissrespectful to ignore the teachings of ones Sifu for someone elses methods. This is why so many have poor ethics and no loyalty, IMHO. Of course, if one finds a better Sifu who expouses another training method more in line with your needs then one always has the option of training under them instead. Although jumping from Sifu to Sifu has its own problems :rolleyes:

[southernkf]

Hi,

My thought is that the dummy isn't a person. It is a dummy. The techniques are abstracted and more about ensuring your performing them correctly with proper structure. Not that your hitting someone at a predetermine position. If you want to work on where to hit someone, then hit someone and figure out what works. Use the dummy for what it gives you, feedback on your structure. If you hit, say pak some one on the forearm, elbow, upper arm, it won't matter if that pak sau isn't structurally sound along with the rest of your body. Us the dummy to ensure that.

At least this is my current approach.

[Chuanfa@sbcglob]

Hello,

FWIW my opinion is that one should always ask their Sifu when they have questions. After all, that is the person you are learning from and you should insure you are training as they teach. While there is nothing wrong with inquiring from other sources as well, in order to get a braoder knowledge base, it is, IMO, dissrespectful to ignore the teachings of ones Sifu for someone elses methods. This is why so many have poor ethics and no loyalty, IMHO. :

My point exactly. Although I do enjoy the posts here and learn a great deal from frequenting this site, I have always been surprised that people would ask specific questions here instead of asking his/her sifu.

[Lugoman]

Do you ever have a question that seems so silly, you're afraid to ask someone face to face and feel more comfortable asking in anonymity?

I for the life of me cannot remember where I read it, I've been searching but no luck.
Without a source to sight, one may think it is coming from me and I respect my Sifu enough not to want to look silly in front of him. This place (more and more) I could really care less.

And why is it that I can ask any silly question I can think of on the Judo forums I frequent without feeling as though I have committed blasphemy?

Oh, and thank you for those who replied with a straight answer.

[t_niehoff]

FWIW my opinion is that one should always ask their Sifu when they have questions. After all, that is the person you are learning from and you should insure you are training as they teach. While there is nothing wrong with inquiring from other sources as well, in order to get a braoder knowledge base, it is, IMO, dissrespectful to ignore the teachings of ones Sifu for someone elses methods. This is why so many have poor ethics and no loyalty, IMHO. Of course, if one finds a better Sifu who expouses another training method more in line with your needs then one always has the option of training under them instead. Although jumping from Sifu to Sifu has its own problems :rolleyes:

From my perspective, this is just more of the traditional mindset stuff, and it only acts to hold people back. What we need to do IMO is stop looking at WCK training as sifu-centered (a great way to keep the ricebowl filled though, so you can see why traditional "masters" adopted it) and start looking at it as learner/trainee-centered. It should be all about the trainee, not at all about the sifu.

No one would talk this way about their personal fitness trainer or their golf pro. Everyone grasps that these people only serve the trainee. They are paid to serve he trainee. While these people are resources, there is no issue of "loyalty" (i.e., control), "disrespect", or "ethics" to seek other resources or information or even train with more than one source. Once you give yourself over to that (traditional) way of thinking, it leads to all kinds of nonsense -- like sifu forbidding their students from visiting or training with others, the "lineage" mentality, etc.

[k gledhill]

The dummy re-inforces our SLT & chum kil in motion , cycling through arm positions relative to our centers as we turn and face as seung ma toi ma or chase aross the face of the dummy. The height of the arms is more important because it will guide the contact points of your SLT to match the form you practise...We develop GING along the way while maintining timing of entry from the sides ...simple ideas rotated using an imovable object to develop our elbow positions that a partner wouldnt have the patience to do for you....:D

If you dont know the idea then question your instructor , if he says feel the qi and walks away your in trouble ;)

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Lugoman

Sometimes it's good to go through the mook jong form without any mook jong.
You'll probably get some answers that way and maybe see that the mook jong, even though it's a stationary piece of wood, is always changing positions

J

[k gledhill]

there are 2 imaginary dummies either side of the real one ....know this and you may see clearer...

[couch]

What we need to do IMO is stop looking at WCK training as sifu-centered (a great way to keep the ricebowl filled though, so you can see why traditional "masters" adopted it) and start looking at it as learner/trainee-centered. It should be all about the trainee, not at all about the sifu.


I like the idea of the ricebowl being full. Imagine getting mad money for teaching your version of Wing Chun. I'd brainwash the whole lot of them.

However, Mo Money, Mo Problems. :)

[jooerduo]

08-22-2007, 12:01 PM
Lugoman
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 48

Mook Jong Question

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I read somewhere that the ends of the arms represents where the elbow would be on an opponent, the reason the arms are so short.

So does this mean in a fight situation that we would be applying our techniques (pak, tan, bong, et al, saus) to the opponent's biceps and triceps?





*** the simple answer is yes
why don't you get a partnet and see for yourself?
there are also different rules for different bridges

[Lugoman]

there are 2 imaginary dummies either side of the real one ....know this and you may see clearer...

Now, when I start seeing imaginary dummies it's usually around closing time and waitress is calling me a cab. :D

Seriously, I get that the dummy is not fixed, but I can't quite wrap my mind around your reply.

[Lugoman]

Hi Lugoman

Sometimes it's good to go through the mook jong form without any mook jong.
You'll probably get some answers that way and maybe see that the mook jong, even though it's a stationary piece of wood, is always changing positions

J

You know, funny you should say this, tonight all the dummies were in use so I did start doing the form in the air (I only know sections 1-2) and it started to make more sense to me how certain movements can be applied because without the jong I had to think about and isolate each movement individually rather than just the sequence.

If that makes sense.

[k gledhill]

Now, when I start seeing imaginary dummies it's usually around closing time and waitress is calling me a cab. :D

Seriously, I get that the dummy is not fixed, but I can't quite wrap my mind around your reply.


keep looking try shot's ;)....Seriously, when you fight along a perimiter/base line, you move in parallel lines to the engagement, if it moves one direction so do you, chumkil is to face the sides as they move , both converging and going along a parrallel line to the guys movement , not in straight lines at them front and center like rock'em sock'em robots . You need to be able to seamessly attack either side he goes from your attack and traps , the common response to being trapped is ?----escape----so give chase,...similar to fighting someone moving along a wall/cage, as you go after them from one side or the other using chisao to maintain distance to effectively strike and work your range back and forth side to side
....By maintaining focus past the middle dummy on your alignment to imaginary ones aka 'body' either side gives you this training mindset ...entry from the sides is thinking to keep going and end in that angle to the defender after chasing [ not to turn onto it as a set piece response or do a kwan away from an attack line only to reface with a fancy chisao world reply that frankly is bs in a real fight ] when you do kwan think the tan is a stike and the bong is simply training ging force on the low arm ...not a set piece , just VT MIND making you hit with one arm while cleaing with [bong] on the other then the tan becomes defensive action while the other arm becomes offensive ...always one attacks one defends or 1 arm both hits and deflects in roation with another stiking arm[ = tan or jum never both if you can help it ;)
Chisao gives the instinctive perpetual proximity/angles to the functioning techniques from the angles we are 'shown' by the movement of the fight...its not always going to be your fight, so you need to have a flowing response while keeping the pressure on, both mental and physical pressure on the defending body ....attack is the key word VT trains us in perpetual attacking ability ....at close proximity ...just not in front trading blows and arm chasing with a tansao .:D

try boiler maker's ...I call them Harvey 1 & 2 ;)

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Lugoman


You know, funny you should say this, tonight all the dummies were in use so I did start doing the form in the air (I only know sections 1-2) and it started to make more sense to me how certain movements can be applied because without the jong I had to think about and isolate each movement individually rather than just the sequence.

If that makes sense.

Makes sense to me

: )

J

[Lugoman]

when you do kwan think the tan is a stike and the bong is simply training ging force on the low arm ...not a set piece , just VT MIND making you hit with one arm while cleaing with [bong] on the other then the tan becomes defensive action while the other arm becomes offensive ...always one attacks one defends or 1 arm both hits and deflects in roation with another stiking arm[ = tan or jum never both if you can help it

I think you just opened a whole new line of thought for me right there. I can grasp what you are saying, but not in all movements I'm doing on the dummy. Seeing the pragmatic applications is so much more exciting than just the rote form. Like I said, I'm not seeing the application in all movements, but in time....

These are the things that I never even know to ask Sifu, thank you so much.


try boiler maker's ...I call them Harvey 1 & 2 ;)

Boiler makers = Harvey Wall Bangers?
There's so much more to learn, I empty my cup to you so that you may fill it... will a boiler maker. :D

[k gledhill]

The dummy isnt 'applications' its a flowing attacking platform to train arms that 'rotate' in a perpetual forward attacking line froma side of an intended defender, we only apply facing actions to the dummy as 'symmetry' double juts etc... entering on the sides that dont require to be done as we do on the dummy just showing to bring the 'hoses' to the water fight so each can touch , but not done 2 arms together [ not a tan /sidepalm attack ] simply re-inforcing an idea from SLT all the way to fruition of a static partner to flow in 1/2 measures of meeting an interuption or clearing them etc... A mind shift is needed from sticking to arms to hitting the body while sliding along the arms keeping elbows in with pec contractions as SLT....Chum kil moves the hoses to reach with our specific water presssure :D
[boiler maker can lead to severe situations, like coming on to strange women in bars
= a pint glass with beer + a shot glass of your favorite headache ....hold shot glass above pint glass ...count down to oblivion 54321.... 'release' into pint glass and see all the lovely foam ..consume before it foams out ..appproach babes before it takes effect ... truly a decieving drink beware 1 should be enough]

alternatives involve flaming shots, etc...[working in bars for 10 years is so bad :D]


harvey was an imaginary 6 ft rabbit in a famous old film with James Stewart