Whats wrong with full contact Chi Sau? [Archive]

forever young

08-22-2007, 02:30 PM

All the gyms I've trained people were told to chill whenever sticky hands got really heated - with people throwing punches. Is there any particular reason why chi sau is meant to be gentle and controlled? I would have thought the more alive the training the better.

there is so many things wrong with 'full contact chisau' i cant list them all but the biggest ones are that chisau has little in common with sparring and bears little relation to positions you may find yourself in in an altercation, rather it is imo a way of calmly practising things like timing, distancing, mass usage, fixed torso, correct shape and attention to details, now bear in mind you obviously can play chisau in many many ways one of the differences in chisau and sparring is the level of contact ie if you are seriously going FULL CONTACT at such a close range the risk of injury to yourself or your partner (not opponent) is extremely high without some form of protection (whether its gloves/gumshields/headgear whatever, that is always up to the individual as to the level of protection but bear in mind if you have to work and feed your family i would suggest approaching things with personal safety in mind NOT being 'hardcore' but being realistic. now i have had the discussion with people that gloves and other such protective equiptment is not realistic but i will say this, if i asked you to hit something hard ie a wall with bare hands then asked you to do the same with gloves which punch would you feel safer throwing harder? probably the one with gloves i would imagine you will pull the punch more bare handed (or perhaps your a 'nutter ;)' so in conclusion (and based on experience) people will feel a LOT happier hitting you much harder while wearing gloves. now unless you are doing some mad type chisau i cant really see chisau working in 8 oz gloves (what i use and the minimum i would recommend for ANY full contact work) and i again would NOT like to be on the receiving end of a full force punch or punches from a 4 oz ufc type glove (ulnless i was getting paid ;) )so in conclusion save chisau for develpoment, do full contact gor sau using strictly wing chun and then when you feel ok start 'mixing it up' sparring using any and all you feel (perhaps work sometimes on just boxing or other times on grappling along side any wing chun either one or both of you) or you could just hit eachother during chisau and 'think you are 'wing chun sparring' (which it isnt ;))
i would also point you here http://www.ninobernardo.com/divorcing_violence_article.html
please read this article and try and digest its full implications, then spar properly THEN tell us whether chisau should be done 'full contact'
just my 02

chisauking

08-22-2007, 05:54 PM

There are no limits in chisau. The intensity of chisau is determined by the skill of the practitioners. Chisau should be on a progressive level and should be practiced \ engaged at the full capacity between partners....but care should be taken so not to exceed either practitioner's limits in order to minimise injuries. To answer Vio's question: there's no problem with full contact chisau.....however, the problem arises when either one of the training partners -- or both -- can't handle this level of chisau.

Looking at chisau in another perspective, chisau is actual wing chun tools (Tan, bong, fook, wu, etc.). If you can't use your wing chun tools in a 'controlled envirnment' what makes you think you can apply it when your opponent has space \ distance added to the equation, when the strikes has more power? Every other 'effective' fighting method trys to work at full intensity, so why should wing chun work at 50%.?

In regards to Nino Bernardo's writing:If we remove violent intent from the equation, we can develop Wing Chun as a study of the human body. We become like engineers or architects, studying the biomechanics and structure of the body. This is a healthier attitude than trying to claim ownership of the whole system, as many students attempt to do.

With all due respect to Nino, I PERSONALLY don't agree with his thinking on this. Chisau trains many, many things besides attributes building, and it's one of the best ways to introduce practitioners to the 'emotional' aspects of fighting. With full contact chisau, we can replicate -- to a lesser degree -- the emotional or stress conditions of a real fight. By inducing this 'state of mind' to a student, we can better 'prepare' him\her for a real confrontation and for the mental \ emotional stress that would surely follow. Learning to control your mental state of mind in this manner is far safer than gor-sau or all out fighting. Wing chun is fighting, and by its very nature, fighting can be damaging. You can't stop all injuries during training, but you can minimise it (which is what Chinese believe gung-fu training to be: an intelligent form of training to fight)

This is written by a novice, mediocre wing chun practitioner, so if it upsets you, it's probably due to the fact I know wing chun not at all.

Nick Forrer

08-22-2007, 06:45 PM

Nothing wrong with full contact chi sau as long as there is agreement of both parties and appropriate protection where striking the head is concerned.

At the least it teaches you to distinguish between simply tagging someone and striking them with proper power, accuracy and positioning.

Wu Wei Wu

08-22-2007, 09:07 PM

Chi Sao seems to operate (more is learnt) if done so at a reasonable pace. However, like many types of training, we cannot know its effectiveness unless pressure is applied. Whilst I am not a fan of going hard in Chi Sao as it tends to turn into sloppy hand chasing, there are rare times when some headgear and solid palm strikes helps one learn about how to work under pressure. This is something I picked up from a superb Chi Sao player named Jesse Glover.

However, Chi Sao is no substitute to pressure testing by way of sparring. It is at such times that one understands the flaws of drills with fixed positions.

Liddel

08-22-2007, 11:03 PM

I agree with Nick a WWW on this one, but also for me if Chi Sao gets to full contact (agreed by both parties) this is more like Gor Sao and sparring so its not really chi sao for all intense and purposes... IMO that is.

I had a guy visit from another school once and he was all soft and feeling things out untill my ability didnt let him land some shots he tried. He immediatly added more force untill he went a little nuts i had to gain space and give a kick, only for him to then say "hey, thats not part of chi sao" LOL.

So make sure the exact context of what your doing is known by both parties prior to touching hands, and if your at someone elses place take a friend !

DREW

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 06:00 AM

All the gyms I've trained people were told to chill whenever sticky hands got really heated - with people throwing punches. Is there any particular reason why chi sau is meant to be gentle and controlled? I would have thought the more alive the training the better.

You need to begin with seeing that chi sao does not develop fighting skills. The easy way to see this for yourself is to ask anyone who says otherwise to spar with a decently skilled non-WCK fighter and see if their fighting looks anything like their chi sao or if they are moving like they do in chi sao. It won't -- because they can't. So they are "training" to do one thing (to move in a certain way), but then doing something else in fighting. This is a prime example of poor training.

So why do chi sao if that's not how we will fight, if it is not application? Well, you don't really need to do chi sao, you can learn the skills directly in a sparring-type platform (assuming your instructor really knows what he is doing). But you can use chi sao if you appreciate its limited use: it is a learning platform.

Chi sao is only a learning platform because it is an unrealistic (in that the exercise does not correspond to the reality of fighting) artificial, limited exercise that will allow you to learn various contact fighting skills. By "learn" I mean be introduced to and then develop (practice them) to the point where you can physically perform them comfortably (if you can't perform them, how could you fight with them?). If you view chi sao in this way, then you will immediately grasp why it isn't, and by its very nature can't be, "alive." Trying to make the exercise "more realistic" or "more alive" will be fruitless, as to do so will require you to basically scrap the exercise!

You'll also appreciate that the exercise isn't in itself to "train certain attributes like structure and sensitivity" since these things are by-products of the skills (only by traiing the skills do you get these things, which are skill-specific btw).

To learn and develop those contact fighting skills to a point where you can comfortably perform them will require more than just being "gentle and controlled" however. Fighting is not "gentle and controlled." It involves loads of pressure, sloppiness, violent actions, etc., and for you to really learn those contact fighting skills will require you to at some point put those qualities into the exercise. For example, you can only learn to deal with pressure by dealing with pressure.

Once you have "learned" these contact fighting skills, you then need to put them into sparring to practice or train them as fighting skills. The development of these beyond the superficial level takes place only via quality sparring.

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 06:29 AM

The seung ma toi ma at the begining of chi-sao process teaches to hit an incoming line of force [ tan sao & 1/2 step] with angle back and offline [ toi ma]...the precise reason for this exercise is training for maximum damage at the correct time with balanced structure / mechanics ....the rest involves removal of obstructions to this entry ..and more ....full contact will render the first guy to enter and being hit like this going to hospital. We learn something harder in VT , CONTROL
Chi-sao is role playing with each other to help fight OTHERS WHO DONT KNOW OUR WAY ;) its ludicrous to enter into a match ...you will find as I have each school wants to better the other ...but if one school has a technique that breaks the "process" for the sake of the hit we call this boxing :D and you will find that you seek a perimiter to enter on this guy ....and finish him:D not be his heavy bag...if I am forced to arm chase off my centerline to block a punch while standing in the center to his attack , wrong for me tacticly to be there in the first palce to fight. Tan sao never leaves the centerline.

We fight from a 'baseline' of a triangle seeking entry or being shown how by our opponents as they attack us.we can maneuver this space like any fighter . The final part of entry are the chi-sao distances and angles we spend so much time doing and maintaining . Learning never to attack down the midddle of an attacking line of force [ bullfighting ]. There is a process for chi-sao and its not to end up standing in front of someone with 2 arms extended. Not to wail on each other standing in front . We role play in a random manner , with techniques we will use for our tactical entry.
The chi-sao is the tip of the triangle so to speak the end of our entry from a baseline /perimiter [ like dummy entry from sides] . EAch partner acts as the attacker randomly testing our ability and vice versa to freely apply angling and responses in real time to either side of the designated entry. obviously we wont always be able to maintain this tactic, so have other 'volley' methods from the base line to maneuver to the desired angles or forciby place the guy where we want using 'ging' in our pak, bong, po-pai etc... actions
Trying to turn chi-sao into a Fight is foolish. We use each other to train full force impact , but to be honest you will find simply TRYING to hit each other full force and not get hit IS THE LESSON :D one will find that the reality of delivering a 'stopping' force isnt as easy as it sounds at close quarters to a moving object. AND to start with the notion that you can just do it any time is hilarious ...a body moving towards you is stealing your force with every inch it comes at you....
if you are slow or fast by a smal amount of timing you wont have the leg timing let alone the arm :D you lose the whole idea of seung ma toi ma.

SEUNG MA ~ TOI MA IS LEARNING TO HIT FULL IMPACT IN STAGES only after you have been shown by your attacker what side to deliver this attack ...

mistakes in this drill are the way to fight others not each other....we fix each other not ko you for making a mistake :rolleyes:

:D

Chisao helps to develop fighting skills

Nick Forrer

08-23-2007, 06:52 AM

You need to begin with seeing that chi sao does not develop fighting skills. The easy way to see this for yourself is to ask anyone who says otherwise to spar with a decently skilled non-WCK fighter and see if their fighting looks anything like their chi sao or if they are moving like they do in chi sao. It won't -- because they can't. So they are "training" to do one thing (to move in a certain way), but then doing something else in fighting. This is a prime example of poor training.

So why do chi sao if that's not how we will fight, if it is not application? Well, you don't really need to do chi sao, you can learn the skills directly in a sparring-type platform (assuming your instructor really knows what he is doing). But you can use chi sao if you appreciate its limited use: it is a learning platform.

Chi sao is only a learning platform because it is an unrealistic (in that the exercise does not correspond to the reality of fighting) artificial, limited exercise that will allow you to learn various contact fighting skills. By "learn" I mean be introduced to and then develop (practice them) to the point where you can physically perform them comfortably (if you can't perform them, how could you fight with them?). If you view chi sao in this way, then you will immediately grasp why it isn't, and by its very nature can't be, "alive." Trying to make the exercise "more realistic" or "more alive" will be fruitless, as to do so will require you to basically scrap the exercise!

You'll also appreciate that the exercise isn't in itself to "train certain attributes like structure and sensitivity" since these things are by-products of the skills (only by traiing the skills do you get these things, which are skill-specific btw).

To learn and develop those contact fighting skills to a point where you can comfortably perform them will require more than just being "gentle and controlled" however. Fighting is not "gentle and controlled." It involves loads of pressure, sloppiness, violent actions, etc., and for you to really learn those contact fighting skills will require you to at some point put those qualities into the exercise. For example, you can only learn to deal with pressure by dealing with pressure.

Once you have "learned" these contact fighting skills, you then need to put them into sparring to practice or train them as fighting skills. The development of these beyond the superficial level takes place only via quality sparring.

Good post. To me chi sau is like using training wheels when first learning to ride a bike. Useful when you start but after a certain base level of competancy is obtained they have to come off if you ever want to be able to actually ride.

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 07:12 AM

We arent all riding the same bike ;)

YungChun

08-23-2007, 07:22 AM

Nothing wrong with full/hard contact Chi Sao... So long as saftey is addressed.. It's just Chi Sao with hard contact, with release of power..

Among those I have trained with hard/full contact hits was always the norm.. A hell of a lot better for training correct mechanics, timing and technique and conditioning than these long range no contact, "indicated strikes" or "touch me kill me" moves..

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 07:25 AM

Exactly , air strikes :rolleyes: or pose and everybody look at me techniques , i got him first
:D who cares now fight and see if you can stop him with it ;)
VT requires a tactical delivery like any fighting method....not just stick to guys arms in a dirty clinch front and center ....bull v bull fighter...timing is everything, Ive never seen a bullfighter stick to horns front and center , have you ? maybe in a circus where guy jumps over the horns !

YungChun

08-23-2007, 07:48 AM

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 07:58 AM

We arent all riding the same bike ;)

Nick's analogy of the training wheels on a bike is accurate. And if you look at it from this perspective, it exposes chi sao competitions for what they really are. Do people -- adults -- really want to have bike races when the bikes have training wheels?

We all are riding the same bike -- it just doesn't look that way because in chi sao we all have the training wheels on, and those wheels permit/allow people to "get away" with all kinds of things, things that they couldn't "get away with" if they took the training wheels off. So you get people doing all kinds of different things, all supported by the training wheels. But when the training wheels come off, most of that stuff you will no longer see.

My view is that instead of using theory (what I believe fighting should be) to guide what things you do at the training wheel stage, use genuine application (what will actually be involved in contact fighting) to guide you as to what to do at the training wheel stage. That way, when you take off the training wheels, you've actually been practicing those things that will work without the support of the wheels. That step, however, is beyond most people "teaching" WCK.

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 07:58 AM

When Yip Man said " the opponent will show you how to fight them " he didnt mean stand in front and stick to their arms ;)
what you said Yung Chun, its the guy at the base line receiveing the serve , the bullfighter waiting for the moment , the opening chess moves...the rest as they say is up to you :D...there are no guarantees , just ways to lessen the odds in your favour ...a percentage game.
You want to take a shot front and center ? get jammed by a simple pawn in front ? fight the bull horn to arms ?
MOVE !!! where to and when thats chi-sao to me, we dont wait to touch the horns to know what side we want ; )

YungChun

08-23-2007, 08:06 AM

I think we're on the same page for the most part.. We must be active, aware and on the attack... We want to "fit in" but not be "reactive"...

Think "I want to Trap him" in WCK and you ARE TRAPPED...

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 08:17 AM

The way i go is no thinking attacking , the arms are trianed to maintain the attack without thought to stick or trapmore than is required ...never fight water to water let one wave pass and enter or surf it....own the wave.

chisauking

08-23-2007, 08:22 AM

t-niehoff sez: You need to begin with seeing that chi sao does not develop fighting skills. The easy way to see this for yourself is to ask anyone who says otherwise to spar with a decently skilled non-WCK fighter and see if their fighting looks anything like their chi sao or if they are moving like they do in chi sao. It won't -- because they can't. So they are "training" to do one thing (to move in a certain way), but then doing something else in fighting. This is a prime example of poor training.

csk: you must first define fighting skills. To me, timing, power, sensitivty, training of actual wing chun tools, co-ordination of structure, emotional control, listening, etc., are all fighting skills accumulated from chisau. As regards to chisau in fighting, I see it with all the practitioners that can 'apply' wing chun. I can see the powerful, close and short punches, the fook, the wu, the pak, the ding, the quan, etc., etc. What we don't see is the 'continuence' of chisau because the fight is normally over within 2 or 3 moves.

So why do chi sao if that's not how we will fight, if it is not application? Well, you don't really need to do chi sao, you can learn the skills directly in a sparring-type platform (assuming your instructor really knows what he is doing). But you can use chi sao if you appreciate its limited use: it is a learning platform.

csk: you mean, not how YOU fight.

Chi sao is only a learning platform because it is an unrealistic (in that the exercise does not correspond to the reality of fighting) artificial, limited exercise that will allow you to learn various contact fighting skills. By "learn" I mean be introduced to and then develop (practice them) to the point where you can physically perform them comfortably (if you can't perform them, how could you fight with them?). If you view chi sao in this way, then you will immediately grasp why it isn't, and by its very nature can't be, "alive." Trying to make the exercise "more realistic" or "more alive" will be fruitless, as to do so will require you to basically scrap the exercise!

csk: 1000s of hours doing chisau and it's ONLY an exercise, with no practical applications. If it's only a learning platform and unrealistic -- according to YOU -- then all the wing chun practitioners that still practice chisau is completely wasting their time......Of course, you know it all. You know more than people like Hawkins Cheung, WSL, Lam Man Hog, Yip Man, etc., all the wing chun practitioners that advocate chisau and the ones still alive, still practising chisau.....because it's unrealistic. Very good, Terrence, you are a genius...you discovered the greatest wing chun hoax, getting people to do 'streering wheel' exercise with no practical applications. Better get the skipping rope out.

How chisau is use \ applied in a fight is determined by the comprehension and skill of the practitioner. Of course, some see chisau as nothing more than a static drill, with partners facing each other, with arms clinging on the onset.......In the same way, some practitioners of BJJ in a real fight will automatically go onto their backs on the ground, waiting for their opponent to join them......because that's how they was taught in the club! But that's life! How you adapt and apply your skills is down to your intelligence.

Yep, WSL was right.....Wing chun is a very good horse, but few can ride it.......even comprehend it.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 08:25 AM

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 08:25 AM

I think a lot of people are missing the more subtle things that Chi Sao teaches, like "tactical delivery".. Not everything is about sticking or clinching...

Beyond tactile sticking stuff, there is:

Distance awareness..

Correct mechanics body alignment..

How to move into good a position wrt to the opponent..

Tool/weapon placement...

How to use correct timing..

How to release power...

Use of angles and openings..

How to intercept movement...

General kinesthetic/body awareness..

And more..

--------------------------

Wing Chun is about simplicity... The ideal in WCK is to be as simple as possible, not use as many WCK techniques as is possible..

You talk about "simplicity" and then list all kinds of things -- and more! -- that chi sao "teaches".

And it doesn't help to talk about "ideals" (and project your ideals to "the ideal in WCK").

If someone wants to fight while in sustained-contact, to control while hitting, they will need certain skills to do that successfully. That's not some ideal, it is reality. The situation/context creates the demand. Chi sao, lop sao, etc. are contact drills that teach contact fighting skills. The problem -- as the training wheel discussion illustrates -- is that we can do all kinds of things in those drills that don't carry-over to genuine application. In other words, we can learn and develop all kinds of skills, ways of moving, concepts, etc. that really don't meet the demands of contact fighting (but nonetheless work with the training wheels on).

It isn't useful to list what chi sao "teaches" -- since what it "teaches" will depend on how the drill is done. It, chi sao, doesn't teach anything of itself. How it is done or performed will depend on what informs the drill. With the training wheels on, you can do the drill/exercise in many ways. If theory informs the drill, you get all kinds of nonsense, all kinds of unrealistic practices. When application informs the drill, you get something useful.

But for application to inform the drill, it means that the participants of the drill or the instructor must understand/know the application, those contact fighting skills -- not in theory, but in reality. And people only know/understand at the level of their performance. To start with reality, you must know reality. So people "teaching" chi sao that don't ahve well-developed contact fighting skills are simply the blind leading the blind.

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 08:35 AM

chisauking,

You ask: "1000s of hours doing chisau and it's ONLY an exercise, with no practical applications. If it's only a learning platform and unrealistic -- according to YOU -- then all the wing chun practitioners that still practice chisau is completely wasting their time......"

Yes, they are wasting their time. And if you'd see any of them fight, you'd see that they are wasting their time. You'd see that they wouldn't move or behave like they do in chi sao. You live under the assumption that because these "masters" -- who, btw, did any of them fight that were highly skilled? -- practiced this way, that this is how we should do it. Well, it doesn't produce good fighting skills. Instead of believing your stories, what you've been told, your assumptions, look with your own eyes for evidence. Stop buying into that nonsense. Don't believe it unless and until you see it for yourself.

Training wheels can be useful, but need to be discarded to move beyond that level. AS the old saying goes, it is a boat to take you across the river, once across you leave the boat to continue your journey. Most people in WCK never get beyond the boat, and so never really develop good skill or the understanding that goes along with that skill.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 08:35 AM

You talk about "simplicity" and then list all kinds of things -- and more! -- that chi sao "teaches".

"Walking" though a very simple activity still involves myriad elements that must be learned... Listing those elements does not make the activity any more or less “simple”.

I'm afraid you have the lock on making something more complicated than it has to be with your remarkable assertion that you must “clinch” before <anyone?> can KO a "good opponent"

sanjuro_ronin

08-23-2007, 08:36 AM

Context is everything and I am sure there are at least a few ways to make Chi Sao more practical for those that enjoy doing it.

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 08:45 AM

"Walking" though a very simple activity still involves myriad elements that must be learned... Listing those elements does not make the activity any more or less “simple”.

But it doesn't help --you can list all the "things" that are involved in throwing a ball or riding a bike too, or just do those skills. Is shfiting the weight used in riding a bike or throwing a ball? Sure. But you don't need to point that out -- anyone who practices really throwing a ball or riding a bike will see that.

I'm afraid you have the lock on making something more complicated than it has to be with your remarkable assertion that you must “clinch” before <anyone?> can KO a "good opponent"

I NEVER said you must clinch before you can knock someone out -- why do you make these things up? Of course you can knock people out without clinching, boxers, MT fighters, kickboxers, etc., do it all the time. I said the essence of WCK is to control while hitting. That control requires sustained contact. No contact, no control. No sustained contact, no sustained control.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 08:48 AM

Show me. Show me in fighting that you - or anyone - can control someone who has decent fighting skills with strikes alone.
I guess that KOing someone doesn't qualify as "control"... My bad... LOL

Then again I'm intersted in taking out the opponent not "controlling"..

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 09:00 AM

I guess that KOing someone doesn't qualify as "control"... My bad... LOL

Then again I'm intersted in taking out the opponent not "controlling"..

You can't work from the assumtion that you will knock the opponent out or break his structure with your strike -- most often in reality that won't happen.

Knocking someone out is great -- but it isn't an easy thing to do. Hitting someone is no guarantee that you will knock them out or break their structure. Hitting someone is no guarantee of anything. It may have absolutely no effect; but it does leave you as a target. If you are in range to hit your opponent, he is in range to hit you (unless you are very much taller). If you hit him and it has no effect, he's going to hit you -- maybe at the same time, maybe shortly thereafter. You'll just end up trading. The control is the safety. It allows me to hit without being hit back, even if my strike doesn't produce the knockout or the result I want. Without that control I might as well just box.

What makes what we do different in kind from boxing is the control aspect. If you take that away, there is no need to do WCK -- just do boxing or kickboxing. That's what most WCK people end up doing anyway since they never really develop the control aspect. When you put in the control aspect, it requires a different set of mechanics, different ways of moving, of striking, etc. than boxing.

Wu Wei Wu

08-23-2007, 09:09 AM

A Couple of Problems in Chi Sao...

Hobbyist Vs. Fighter
I wouldn't go so far as to say Chi Sao is a waste of time. However, if done in an isolated manner, devoid of training other attributes, then one cannot be expected to become a fighter. Perhaps only a recreational hobbyist at best.

Different Types of Chi Sao
Someone pointed out that not all Chi Sao is the same. Yes. In fact, most Chi Sao, tends to be lineage specific. Many times I have rolled with people outside of my own lineage and felt as if the dynamic they applied was alien to me. This is yet another limitation of Chi Sao; the different interpretations. I cannot be expected to drill something useful in Chi Sao, with someone from a different lineage who uses differing mechanics. (hope this makes sense). However, if we use a different forum to communicate with people from other lineages, or indeed other arts, this problem does not arise. Say for instance, putting on gloves and sparring.

Better Ways To Train
Someone mentioned the important components that Chi Sao teaches such as timing, distancing, etc. In short, there are easier ways to train these things. Sparring teaches timing. Pad work teaches the mechanics of hitting. Bag work provides you wih power. Perhaps Chi Sao is limited to training just contact reflexive action.

Perception of Wing Chun via Chi Sao
This for me is a major annoyance. I find the way Wing Chun men are perceived by other arts as offensive. Why is it that other non-TCMA people view Wing Chun men as 'patty-cake' artists? Probably because of our preoccupation with Chi Sao. For example, if an MMA guy clicked on a youtube clip to look at 'real' Wing Chun, chances ae it would bring up a clip of some mediocre Chi Sao. How would this be perceived? With any degree of seriousness?

Chi Sao has its place. I grew up with Chi Sao and enjoy so many aspects of it. I believe the adversity faced when doing good Chi Sao is almost like a narrative on the hardships of life. However, there is nothing like the rush of putting on some 16oz's, a gum shield, giving an opponent a courteous nod, a touch of gloves and the freedom to express oneself.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 09:11 AM

You can't work from the assumtion that you will knock the opponent out or break his structure with your strike -- most often in reality that won't happen.

Knocking someone out is great -- but it isn't an easy thing to do. Hitting someone is no guarantee that you will knock them out or break their structure. Hitting someone is no guarantee of anything. It may have absolutely no effect; but it does leave you as a target. If you are in range to hit your opponent, he is in range to hit you (unless you are very much taller). If you hit him and it has no effect, he's going to hit you -- maybe at the same time, maybe shortly thereafter. You'll just end up trading. The control is the safety. It allows me to hit without being hit back, even if my strike doesn't produce the knockout or the result I want. Without that control I might as well just box.

What makes what we do different in kind from boxing is the control aspect. If you take that away, there is no need to do WCK -- just do boxing or kickboxing. That's what most WCK people end up doing anyway since they never really develop the control aspect. When you put in the control aspect, it requires a different set of mechanics, different ways of moving, of striking, etc. than boxing.

No amount of "controlling" is going to compensate for ineffectual striking, unless you are talking locking, choking and traditional grappling..

Are you going to control for a half an hour while you pummel your opponent with ineffectual love taps? Strikes that do not control--stun, unbalance, do damage, etc, are ineffectual..

The simplest solution is the way of WCK; Suggesting otherwise IMO just underscores a lack of understanding..

If you need to control fine.. But WCK does not seek to control it seeks to end the fight, it does not seek to trap, grab, pak or lop, it seeks to destroy...

Some people will interpret what you and others say as justification for reaching and grabbing hands and such, seeking to trap not hit.. This is a big mistake that WILL get them hurt in a fight and only serves to undermine WCK’s method...

YungChun

08-23-2007, 09:23 AM

Better Ways To Train
Someone mentioned the important components that Chi Sao teaches such as timing, distancing, etc. In short, there are easier ways to train these things. Sparring teaches timing. Pad work teaches the mechanics of hitting. Bag work provides you wih power. Perhaps Chi Sao is limited to training just contact reflexive action.

Disagree..

You can certainly train those things via pad work.. However you would not be getting the same training, WCK training, at the same range under the conditions that WCK operates, in terms of range, mechanics, techniques, attributes, etc... Chi Sao is a totalistic approach to training WCK elements as a whole.

Some of the biggest elements that you should be learning developing in good Chi Sao training is how to move, stay in range, face and follow and displace his tools, *spatial placement* of the body and tools, not merely tactile sensitivity... How can you separate all these facets from the entire activity?

You can do try and do that with pad work but then you would not be reaping the same benefits found in and at the range and conditions of Chi Sao that WCK uses, in short you wouldn't be training WCK...

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 09:39 AM

No amount of "controlling" is going to compensate for ineffectual striking, unless you are talking locking, choking and traditional grappling..

It's not compensating, it is working in conjunction with striking. In that way, my control aids my striking and my striking aids my control.

Are you going to control for a half an hour while you pummel your opponent with ineffectual love taps? Strikes that do not control--stun, unbalance, do damage, etc, are ineffectual..

I'm going to control (or try to control) him for as long as it takes. Look, let's say we were doing GNP. Similar strategy -- get some control (top position) to limit the opponent's ability to make meaningful movement and then begin to pound him.
Would you ask, "Are you going to control for a half an hour while you pummel your opponent with ineffectual love taps?" No. I'm going to control and pound him with everything I've got. But I don't assume that any one strike will take him out or prevent him from hitting me. The control gives me safety from which to launch my attacks, makes my attacks more effective (he can't move away from them, can't roll with the punches as easily, etc.).

You could say that WCK is standing GNP! And maybe this is why it makes an excellent transition into GNP (see Alan's DVD on GNP -- plug, plug!).

The simplest solution is the way of WCK; Suggesting otherwise IMO just underscores a lack of understanding..

I'm not suggesting anything outside of WCK -- WCK in essence is controlling while hitting.

If you need to control fine.. But WCK does not seek to control it seeks to end the fight, it does not seek to trap, grab, pak or lop, it seeks to destroy...

Some people will interpret what you and others say as justification for reaching and grabbing hands and such, seeking to trap not hit.. This is a big mistake that WILL get them hurt in a fight and only serves to undermine WCK’s method...

If you don't want the control, then you don't need WCK -- you can box or do MT or kickbox, all of which have proven themselves much more reliable methods for noncontact fighting.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 09:47 AM

If you need to control fine.. But WCK does not seek to control it seeks to end the fight, it does not seek to trap, grab, pak or lop, it seeks to destroy...

If you don't want the control, then you don't need WCK -- you can box or do MT or kickbox, all of which have proven themselves much more reliable methods for noncontact fighting.

I agree with you save the point of intent..

WCK does not seek to control it seeks to destroy via control of the CG...

So to clarify WCK IMO is..

HIT--CONTROL--HIT--CONTROL

Where this can happen at once or not, through any kind of control... BUT it is not

CONTROL--HIT--CONTROL where CONTROL is not striking.

Do you assert that:

This is justification for <on entry> reaching and grabbing hands and such, seeking to trap not hit..

Please clarify...this point..

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 09:58 AM

I agree with you save the point of intent..

WCK does not seek to control it seeks to destroy via control of the CG...

So to clarify WCK IMO is..

HIT--CONTROL--HIT--CONTROL

Where this can happen at once or not, through any kind of control... BUT it is not

CONTROL--HIT--CONTROL where CONTROL is not striking.

As I said, WCK is standing ground-and-pound. And just like in GNP, in WCK the control doesn't come from the strikes, but the strikes certainly aid in the control. The control comes from sustained contact - in the case of GNP from pins. No sustained contact, no sustained control. Why don't GNPers just sit beside their opponent and hit them? Because sitting besides them EVEN WITH STRIKING doesn't offer control, and their opponent will get away, hit back, etc. The control is the key to GNP. Just as it is the key to WCK's strategy.

Do you assert that:

This is justification for <on entry> reaching and grabbing hands and such, seeking to trap not hit..

Please clarify...this point..

It depends on the situation, on what the oppnent is doing. Let's say I "enter" with a pak da -- am I reaching for and grabbing his hands? Am I seeking to trap and not hit? Or am I seeking to control while hitting?

YungChun

08-23-2007, 10:01 AM

It depends on the situation, on what the oppnent is doing. Let's say I "enter" with a pak da -- am I reaching for and grabbing his hands? Am I seeking to trap and not hit? Or am I seeking to control while hitting?
As long as there is a hit <an attack> in there.....

But I am somewhat "a gassed" that you would suggest entering with a Pak Da... :eek:

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 10:13 AM

As long as there is a hit <an attack> in there.....

But I am somewhat "a gassed" that you would suggest entering with a Pak Da... :eek:

As I see it, everything we do is an attack -- the pak is an attack. It should attack the opponent's structure, balance, put shock into him, slow him down, even knock him into walls. His arm is just a conduit for me. If you can't do those things, and don't see the WCK tools, like pak sao, as attacks in themselves, then you will see these things as "chasing hands" -- because that is what they become if they are not attacks.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 10:16 AM

I agree but it's about percentages..

Entry by pak alone against a fast jab, from a good fighter is low percentage IMO...

Choosing to "attack" the arm when in range and his chin is open IS chasing hands...

Reaching in for attachment is not a good idea in any case IMO... Attacking with striking is a better way to gain an attachment..IMO.

t_niehoff

08-23-2007, 10:30 AM

I agree but it's about percentages..

Entry by pak alone against a fast jab, from a good fighter is low percentage IMO...

Choosing to "attack" the arm when his chin is open IS chasing hands...

As I said, it all depends on the situation. I NEVER said I'd use pak sao alone against a fast jab -- this is stuff you're making up.

If an opponent is "set" and you try to hit him on the chin without first establishing control, sure you might get away with it -- boxers do -- but the safety isn't there. And while you are punching he can be punching too. And if that's how you want to handle things, you'd be better off boxing.

If his arm is open, by attacking the arm you are preventing it from hitting, even if your attack (to his structure, etc.) isn't entirely successful. And, you can use that attack to set up control, and make your chin shot a lot safer and perhaps more effective. It's not a good idea to hit something because it is open. When you do that, you often end up eating punches. Whereas if you seek to control while hitting, and using your hitting to further your control, things go alot smoother.

Using his arms as handles, conduits,e tc. to control the opponent -- not just his arm but his body, his movement, etc. -- is not chasing hands because it's not the hands I'm after: I'm chasing control, chasing his center through whatever contact I have.

YungChun

08-23-2007, 10:38 AM

I agree but it's about percentages..

Entry by pak alone against a fast jab, from a good fighter is low percentage IMO...

Choosing to "attack" the arm when his chin is open IS chasing hands...

As I said, it all depends on the situation. I NEVER said I'd use pak sao alone against a fast jab -- this is stuff you're making up.

Never said you said that..

You said pak alone is an attack... This implies pak alone is normally good enough alone... I am attempting to illustrate it is not...

If an opponent is "set" and you try to hit him on the chin without first establishing control, sure you might get away with it

Attacking via striking is faster than establishing control... Unless you would care to illustrate how you intend to establish control <attachment> in such a way, that is faster than by attacking via hitting.. Seems to me Hawkins used to talk about this also... in terms of hitting, attacking via hitting...

boxers do -- but the safety isn't there. And while you are punching he can be punching too.
And while you are "establishing control" whatever that means, please be specific, he will be doing the same.. It is safer to put him on the defensive, if even for a split second to gain entry/attachment.. IMO...

If his arm is open, by attacking the arm you are preventing it from hitting

My BS meter is going off..

Try attacking <reaching for> a good boxer's hand and he will simply hit you with it..

k gledhill

08-23-2007, 11:37 AM

What if your chisao was teaching each strike to also control and pin not to stick to arms but functioning distances ? then the other arm instead of 2 extended together ? then think how could that work facing soemone ...it doesnt... , it only works with the tactical entry from 1 side, our 2 arms EACH capable ALONE of both striking and pinning and trapping against 1 untrained flanked arm...multiply that idea by 2 and we have our 2 ARMS firing down a line in rotation both trapping and hitting in a cycle reminiscent of a chain punch ;) only we arent only focused on the hit in chisao but the forearm and srtucture delivering said techniques that both hit and deflect force off our lines as we attack without thinking... any contact made on our arms is immediatley removed through chisao techniques........the coaching is ALL ABOUT MAINTAINING THE STRIKES THAT ALSO ARE PINNING AND STOPPING THE GUY FACING BY CONTROLLING with pins etc...only with one arm at a time so we develop the ability to have an edge so to speak... not all lineages do this, simple answer.
The fight begins at the baseline not the apex of the triangle...once you get to the triangle you have to know instinctively wat angles you nedd to take to either face a sie given or angle off to recive a line of force....mobility in perpetual proximity to our working angles...never facing a bucket of water , just waiting for it to be thrown before giving away our intent....and reciprocate with our own ...simple but hard to do ergo lots of seung ma toi ma ....with out the drill your arm sticking developing wrisitng techniques that are simply redundant in a real fight.

k gledhill

08-24-2007, 07:04 AM

As I see it, everything we do is an attack -- the pak is an attack. It should attack the opponent's structure, balance, put shock into him, slow him down, even knock him into walls. His arm is just a conduit for me. If you can't do those things, and don't see the WCK tools, like pak sao, as attacks in themselves, then you will see these things as "chasing hands" -- because that is what they become if they are not attacks.

chasing hands translates as leaving ones OWN centerline at the apex of the equilateral triangle formed by our arm pits to fullextension of wrists along the centerline that divides the triangle...the base line allows X ergo the opening moves of each form .
drwaing a line with wrists and the rear X relative to the line.....

if this is the case, where would you be to both create a controling line of alternating strikes and elbowlines that didnt leave your line ?
Due to the line created by the arms doing this 'thinking' they dont need to leave or search for arms, rather maneuver for the correct delivery by facing offangles to the given attackin arm... by design the arms need not seek out anything , rather deal with arms that have found ours or interupted the strike path....resorting to 2 handed responses only if the attacking arm is well positioned and needs further assitance....
:D chi-sao isnt to try to stick to anything ...what to do to unstick or clear a path for the rear hand asapvu-sao...[vu-sao is a strike first jut , lop, second] ...arm contact means no head contact. bean curd body glass head

let the arm find you, not you look for the arm, you hit the head and avoid being betweenfront and center two arms.

If you arent adopting an early use of angling offline in chisao training you will always see it as facing squarely chasing arms off line while working a fight like chisao training....simply a starting point not to be in when the fight goes off....if a basketball palyer need to get to a shot he doesnt go straight at the guy and run him over , he feints ...he plays mind games at a perimiter to get to a side.

YungChun

08-24-2007, 08:38 AM

Good post..

We chase Santa.. :)

Chasing hands is one of the most common problems in Chi Sao, without attacking the center you can’t break him down and break his structure you are forced to chase his hands to ‘win the game’ and then WCK goes out the window.

Right up there with no Jao Sao/Jip Sao, no Forward Spring Energy, no Toi Ma, no Fan Sao..

We should be sensitive to when he *leaves the line*, how to help him leave the line--always relating back to how and when to attack/clear/take the line, taking the line is taking his King, the rest are all subordinate parts that cannot win the real game of taking him out..

Would you rather take his Bishop or take his King? At a minimum take both, but this is only a means to an End Game--his King...

When we bridge we attack <hit> the line... the King..

"Attacking hand defends" translates as the 'hitting' hand defends...

Using WCK body power the strikes must disturb him and drive through the base of the opponent breaking his base, breaking structure..

"But can you do it?"

Like a gunslinger, Cheung states that a wing chun practitioner has to develop the fastest draw. "A wing chun player captures the centerline first, which means he has the opponent targeted. if I am pointing my gun at you, and you move, even slightly, I'll shoot Other Systems want to shoot as soon as possible, but with wing chun, you want to be the one that draws first, then shoot if necessary. "if you can strike your opponent at his moment of entry, the results can be devastating," claims Cheung. "Impact is virtually doubled. The question is: Can you do it?"

Capturing the centerline

Many martial artists understand the concept of the centerline, a principle emphasized in wing chun. As master Cheung defines it, the centerline is the fastest line of entry between two opponents facing each other. The centerline concept is what differentiates wing chun from other systems of martial arts.

"In other styles, movement originates from outside toward the center. Other styles choose to use the curved line. Wing chun is different in that movement originates from the center outward. Wing chun is designed to cut the motions from other systems, and timing is the means to occupy the center first"' says Cheung. "It's not wing chun if the movement doesn't originate from the center.

"One must capture and control the centerline to occupy a superior position. To occupy the centerline in an instant is the mark of expert skill, by controlling it you have immediately developed a sense of what the opponent can or cannot do," says Cheung. "You have, in essence, presented a question or problem for the opponent to answer."

"Many wing chun men ignore the skill of closing the gap and distance fighting," says Cheung. Wing chun's famous motto explains, "Stay as he comes, follow as he retreats; rush in upon loss of contact." To "rush in" means to overwhelm the opponent with a blast An analogy of the pressure of a river behind a dam suddenly opening its gates should help you understand this feeling of 'rushing in." Master Cheung continues, "Seeing a whole body charge at you has a totally different mental reaction then a fist coming at you. A fist is small, but an entire body is big. This mental shock can be unbalancing to my opponent"

Shocking the opponent

When you strike an opponent, you stun or shock him. The shock causes a sudden overwhelming stimuli which can overload the brain and delay reaction. This shocking action allows you to setup your opponent for further consecutive strikes. Whether you choose to strike, yell, curse, spit or slap your opponent, the result is the same if you are successful. Your shocking blow will delay the reaction time of your opponent, causing an opening. if you hit him again, it canes more shock; more shock will cause more delay; more delay in reaction will cause more strikes to land. As Cheung says, "My fists are like drumsticks beating on a drum." But he cautions, 'Don't let the shock reverberate back to you, as you will delay your own timing. Only through correct muscle conditioning and relaxation will you break the vibration back to yourself"

One day Hawkins said to this writer, "Attack me, Robert, anyway you like." I complied and prepared to attack. Just as I did, I suddenly felt stunned, and I had Hawkins' fist in my face. He smiled. '"Did you feel the shook? Did your mind 'blank out?"' I felt first-hand his skill on entering and setting me up. Hawkins did not rain punches on me, but had he, I doubt that my 6 feet, 185 pounds would be able to stop anything after shocking my system.

"To shock your opponent, you can use pak da (slapping strike), lop da or any other tool. You must catch your opponent with the correct tiling. When you shock your opponent, you cause him to blank out, and in that instance he loses himself and his surroundings, and there is an opportunity to destroy him!" says Cheung. "Anytime a martial artist, regardless of style, throws a punch or kick, he is blanking out because of the focus and emotional commitment" This blanking out gives you the time to strike your opponent.

The chi sao training is a famous feature of the wing chun system, but as master Cheung describes it, "Many wing chun practitioners overemphasize the drill. They find themselves unable to use the sticking hands in combat." Cheung continues, "Sticking hands is for contact sensitivity. At long range and no contact with your opponent, you must have eye sensitivity. The problem with most wing chun practitioners is they have trapped themselves with only relying on contact sensitivity; you must have both. Both eyes sensitivity and contact sensitivity follow each other, where one leads off, the other follows to continue."

"Chi Sao training is for you to get information on your opponent, but if you don't have the contact and are at a distance, you must rely on your eyes. Master Cheung describes in detail that, "Eye sensitivity takes over when you don’t have the contact with your opponent; contact sensitivity takes over when you're jammed up and or in close. If you don't develop this, you win never he able to use wing chun."

He cautions: "If a motion is too fast for the eye, it can be a trap, and if it is too fast for the hand, it may be a trap. In these circumstances, you must use your eyes to zoom in, or cut your opponent's motion by rushing in and use your contact sensitivity." Master Cheung's advice is reminiscent of a Patriot missile sighting a Scud missile in mid-air.

"What is important to learn is to control your opponent's bridges and set him up for the next shot. Good wing chun is like playing billiards, you must always look for the next shot. Make your opponent follow you, if you are fast, make him catch up to you. If he is faster, make him slow. If he is hard, defeat him with soft. If he is soft, defeat him with hardness. If you can master the wing chun principles of 'stay as he comes, follow as he retreats; rush in upon loss of contact,' you win realize the essence of wing chun."

YungChun

08-24-2007, 11:47 AM

Don't let this happen to you....OR

ChiSao as an effeminate electric fan.. :eek::confused::p:o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjhQ-0-uuFw

wingchun187

08-25-2007, 06:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjhQ-0-uuFw

o wait could it be you cant chi sau without wing chun.well you try and this what it may look like
_________________:eek::D

k gledhill

08-25-2007, 06:29 AM

monji112000

08-25-2007, 08:16 AM

YungChun

08-25-2007, 11:11 AM

Perhaps "full contact Chi Sao" may lead some away from the goal.. The idea IMO should not be to see how hard you can hit them, or if you can get every last drop of power into the strike, or strikes as a single strike does not show true control unless you drop them--but rather to try and naturally release power instead of holding it back, indicating a strike, or using very light contact that does not move them or force them to react.. Often I have seen people trying to MAX out their power end up loosing the ability to release it, which is what the power or energy should do--release..

People who have not used hard contact in Chi Sao can start off by making 'good' contact to the body, and/or head with gear on. The contact doesn't have to be "killing power" just power that both people can feel and see in terms of how it changes the play and learning process that is going on.. Then you can amp it up as needed... There should be several changes that are apparent when you start making good contact and it doesn't mean abandoning the idea of learning and cooperating as needed it just means trying to make the training and release of power part of what you are learning and training..

chisauking

08-25-2007, 05:32 PM

full contact chisau doesn't mean hitting your opponent until he's black & blue, with broken nose & teeth.

It means working chisau in a progressive level to reach\find the level your are capable of. It means hitting with intent -- with mind and power, in order to replicate a 'real world' situation. Intelligent practitioners would know when this 'level' has been reached, and this method is a lot safer than most people think. There's a time and place for everything.....but only idiots think the intensity of chisau isn't varied depending on what the practitioners are trying to work on.

It make me laugh when people who comprehens less than a novice (me) suggest that by going at intensity within chisau that it's no longer chisau. You can be the best wing chun chisau technician in the world going at 50%, but what good would that do you in the 'real world'? Nobody in the 'real world' would use only 50% in trying to smash your face. If you not able to work at 100% in chisau, you won't be able to work 100% in the 'real world'. If you can't stop a pak-dar within chisau, you will NOT stop a pak-dar in the 'real world'.

Ah, 'why don't we just spar or gor-sau instead of full-contact chisau?' some may ask. The answer is easy: if you can't handle the tools within chisau, where the issue of power is more restrictive due to the close proximity between practitioners, what makes you think you can handle gor-sau when the issue of power is far greater? Again, the answer is easy -- they can't handle the distance, that's why it looks like 'kick boxing'

forever young

08-25-2007, 11:15 PM

On another note ...what is 'full' contact in chi-sao ? the arm hitting alone after shifting ? the arm upper body AND leg together precisley at that moment ? how do you know if you have hit full force or not with the leg and arm together ? By drawing blood,breaking a jaw ko'ing a guy ....how long will the guy let you do this to him while 'searching' :D? There are simple methods to test the timing of a leg->fist punch.The tets also incorporate the 'proving' of the integrity of the strking arm both covering our center line as it takes position at 45 degrees [ roughly] to the incoming arm thrown [ tan sao for test & training is this arm] while flanking, and while fist is making contact ...all at once ....guy steps in with tan [ tan = elbow in outside bridge edge] recipient moves with it but doesnt stick to the arm at his wrist , rather he slides his strike in over the tan and ...moves to side and back with the stepping in motion he goes back 'space for space'+ strike elbows in ....sounds easy huh ?;)
No individual will feel their own leg force when its correctly applied. One can direct the force out through timing during seung ma toi ma drills . A simple direction is to tell the toi'er to make a fist after angling off [ they should already be contacting you with a loose hand ] and then to violently :D drive both contacting fist and foot in opposite directions the chest is used for safety until control is learned and open hand strikes can be utilized...the ground is our friend .
The recipient of said 'leg force' should go backwards several feet...no retraction or upper body shoulder rotation should be used or one is simply pushing .
Common things to watch for are moving into your own space to PUSH.....elbows OUT allowing trading punches ...hips open , knees open...its a similar test to a basic stance we have read , only now we are testing fighting function of a full VT strike in motion to an incoming body as we maeuver off its line or charge /shoot. This maneuver is perpetual changing sides as the attacker charges the other way etc...always we attack the sides given as they are given in realtime of 'hear and now' due to the nature of our moves at close proximity all our traps need not chase becasue they are aimed at a line of ' positive action ' , creating a perimiter along either side of our imaginary equilateral triangle / centerline only functioning from a side of the attack ....Toi ma.
It takes quite a while and can be frustrating to not get it every time and becomes obvious to the partners that without the repetative nature of chi-sao their simply wont be enough reps to sharpen this simple act. all kinds of mistakes present themselves rather than the VT fighter needing to search for them....elbows fly out, feet stop moving, balance is lost , arms lever at the shoulder , arms & elbows overturn offering easy flanking ....all because of wrong positions to US . All things we capitalize on as we maintain our attacking mnd set....we can feed into chokes controling traps for further actions , reaching for handcuffs while pinning against a wall, gun retention while being offline to a struggle ....options.

i love this and make sure i do it a lot!!!! the one coming forwqard should be using his seung ma and the one being forced backwards should be naturally using his toi ma while maintaining his fixed elbow usually in the form of fo0k sau altho pak is ok too, once understood and played well this drill gives the ability to push off of the floor properly and also to receive BIG pressures and still hold some form of structure and line
when i was developing this i spent lots and lots of time doing this both as seung ma toi ma the drill and also pak sau drill whic\h is essentially teaching you to lock your body and deliver your mass behind a fixed (elbow) point.
which also brings me to the first point and as you noted we should be spending chisau time developing this hip/elbow power/connection and the ability to utilize the mass in an efficient/effective way while developing the coordination and timing necessary to deliver the mass in a safe and efficient manner, imho when you are trying to do this (along with the miriad of other details you may wish to develop) during chisau the last thing you need is some fool trying to 'take your head off' so i personally now perceive chisau as the equivalent of 'specific sparring/passing theguard' where as 'free sparring/gor sau' is where we would try and apply the techniques real time/real force/real manner

YungChun

08-26-2007, 01:03 AM

we should be spending chisau time developing this hip/elbow power/connection and the ability to utilize the mass in an efficient/effective way while developing the coordination and timing necessary to deliver the mass in a safe and efficient manner, imho when you are trying to do this (along with the miriad of other details you may wish to develop) during chisau the last thing you need is some fool trying to 'take your head off'

So the last thing you need while you are trying to cultivate power release is someone else doing the same thing?

IMO "the ability to utilize the mass in an efficient/effective way while developing the coordination and timing necessary to deliver the mass" means actually releasing via hitting.. Doesn't mean trying to kill the partner either... Not all Chi Sao is freestyle full power, but working the mechanics means working the mechanics doesn't it? Would this not then mean actually working to release power in the form of wing chun striking? Doesn't one need to cultivate the ability to release good power under these very tough close range, short bridge conditions? And isn't the only way to refine that skill is by training it diligently and realistically <with progressive power and progressive resistance> as one would any other technique?

I wonder when people's energy vector leaves the line... Are people just sticking to the hands to control, or are they training to let them/help them leave the center and then follow the line to the core. In the old days we used to blast each other all over the floor, and had hella fun doing it too... :cool:

Are people learning to sense and naturally release all the body "springs"/energy that should be loaded when the partner's energy no longer fills the line..? IMO this is what WCK sticking tactics are all about..

Again it's not at all about trying to take the guy's head off.. That misses the whole point IMO..

t_niehoff

08-26-2007, 05:48 AM

It make me laugh when people who comprehens less than a novice (me) suggest that by going at intensity within chisau that it's no longer chisau. You can be the best wing chun chisau technician in the world going at 50%, but what good would that do you in the 'real world'? Nobody in the 'real world' would use only 50% in trying to smash your face. If you not able to work at 100% in chisau, you won't be able to work 100% in the 'real world'. If you can't stop a pak-dar within chisau, you will NOT stop a pak-dar in the 'real world'.

It is very true, and sensible, that if you cannot do something in an unrealistic drill then you won't be able to do it in fighting. However, being able to do it in an unrealistic drill like chi sao - regardless of the "intensity" level - does not mean that you will be able to do it under realistic (fighting) conditions.

When people do chi sao, regardless of their intensity or skill at chi sao, neither side is moving, behaving, acting like they will in fighting. Chi sao only "works" when both sides cooperate and play the same nonfighting game.

Ah, 'why don't we just spar or gor-sau instead of full-contact chisau?' some may ask. The answer is easy: if you can't handle the tools within chisau, where the issue of power is more restrictive due to the close proximity between practitioners, what makes you think you can handle gor-sau when the issue of power is far greater? Again, the answer is easy -- they can't handle the distance, that's why it looks like 'kick boxing'

How well you can do something in chi sao is no indication whatsoever that this will work in fighting, particularly against anyone with decent fighting skills. It is not just a matter of the level of power -- in fighting people do not behave, act, react, do things, etc. like most people do in chi sao. And that's why most people can't apply their WCK in contact fighting -- because through chi sao they develop all kinds of things that "work" in chi sao that just won't work in fighting. They are using chi sao to actually become worse fighters by developing poor ways of moving, acting, etc. The only way to see this is through contact fighting with good people; you can never see it through chi sao. Chi sao reinforces habits. The only way to know if those habits are good fighting habits is through fighting.

k gledhill

08-26-2007, 07:31 AM

Chi-sao is role playing at the apex of an angle,waiting for random initiation of a response to entry and counter entry itself ...not facing 2 arms in unison in a clinch facing squarely...sticking endlessly with both arms extended like a clinch. Getting out of a thai head clinch is a bad place to be . Like the saying avoid rather than check ...

chisao at its early stages is role playing responses to movements similar to a guy stepping at you to hit you in a real fight..we respond at an early level by evading and striking...the problem many face is the process they were shown only involved a clinching, trapping , push hands rolling mess face on...no cultivation of a simple idea ....just random acts done in a rolling arm scenario that have little use in a real fight beyond hitting ,without motion, to entry on us.

The PARTNER ;) [roleplaying] doing seung ma aka 1/2 stepping attack....is the guy attacking randomly with tan sao [outside edge] against the toi ma's jumsao [inside edge]
But even this is just so the Seung ma partner is learning to face the action taken by the angling off [role]....not to take a straight line but tentativley 'stalk' the potential movement ...all kinds of 'results' come fom this simple act of stepping and the action taken [or not :D]...the process shows us what to expect in terms of 'evasive' maneuvers from someone we attack.....and not to be a bull using force to enter with a strike , rather develop correct timing of elbow positions relative to our movements [SLT facing with CK] AND the PARTNERS actions...partner 'friend' not a heavy bag . Inch punch is a simple contact test for correct structural line ground to pound ....its only showing the timing factor [leg <->fist] in a way we can release, as a 'test' or proving to show that in a situation of a baseline face off from perimiters , NO CONTACT prior to delivery of the leg/fist force, that if an inch can move you 3-4 feet in the line of delivery [ alignment] it WILL TAKE YOUR HEAD OFF and more from a well timed counter strike to an unsuspecting attacker .......after one becomes skilled in CONTROL further contact can be made with the skill of the force issuer being paramount . If you have never really hit someone in a fight with this devastating punching force in a head on clash you will probably argue "its okay to hit each other"... until the ambulance comes ...Why we spend so much time developing correct structures , both to deliver and 'counter deliver' this force in every strike. A fight doesnt last that long when recieving this in the head [ my experience ] . Why control is primary in gradual stages .
Why Dan chi sao is done at a slightly extended distance to actual contact training chi-sao...so there are no accidents from slow bong to a punch etc...a tooth costs $$$$ ask your dentist [ and hope he's not your chi-sao parner ;)]

The guy learning to 'attack in' doing seung ma also learns not to over enter the center or becomes flanked easily , a learning curve that shows simply responding to a given line of force aka a charging attack from someone , on a correct side at the right distance to strike with the required stopping force as they come in is good start :D

We use 2 extended arms in chisao to learn to adopt one side or another seamlessly but maintain we wont fight with 2 arms in such a manner its just training...we need to always be fighting [ light contact] in baseline perimiter faceoffs like a ny engagment to maneuver our idea to the point of contact....the idea of seeking an arm becomes redundant only what to do to clear the shot for leg->fist over and over until fight is finished ...

knowledge of a few fundmental actions in chisao can change it from a sticking redundant mess to a flowing idea of simple tactical entry and domination...

chi-sao is part of the process not product ... step back and role play without chisao/contact = and you will see that the same roles work the same thinking
attacker / counter attacker ...which role you adopt is up to the fight ....knowing both roles gives us a rounded approach to fighting not a centerline bull charge doing center punches from 4 ft away for everything with tansaos thrown in the air front and center . Or even funnier is he is going to stop and do 2 armed chisoa back [ rolling on my back laughing icon not available]

never give force a platform to function at your expense. be ither side of it , removing it , sliding past it...avoid head on clinches from the onset..train to move like boxers not chisaoers.. we adopt a side stance not a lead leg [yet] , because we dont know what side to go in yet and arent going straight into the center of another guys weapons anyway ; ) think a equally armed knife fight 2 , 1 in each arm.

chisauking

08-26-2007, 09:01 AM

Terrence sez: When people do chi sao, regardless of their intensity or skill at chi sao, neither side is moving, behaving, acting like they will in fighting. Chi sao only "works" when both sides cooperate and play the same nonfighting game.

CSK: I think we practice chisau -- maybe even wing chun -- in a totally different manner \ appraoch, Terrence. Our chisau is very dynamic.

How well you can do something in chi sao is no indication whatsoever that this will work in fighting, particularly against anyone with decent fighting skills. It is not just a matter of the level of power -- in fighting people do not behave, act, react, do things, etc. like most people do in chi sao. And that's why most people can't apply their WCK in contact fighting -- because through chi sao they develop all kinds of things that "work" in chi sao that just won't work in fighting. They are using chi sao to actually become worse fighters by developing poor ways of moving, acting, etc. The only way to see this is through contact fighting with good people; you can never see it through chi sao. Chi sao reinforces habits. The only way to know if those habits are good fighting habits is through fighting.

There are NO guarantees what you do in a 'controlled environment' will be exactly the same as what you do on the street. We practice as close as possible to how we would fight in real life, and all the lines \ angles are exactly the same as real time. The only difference is how much I want to hurt my opponent. As the saying goes: kune yau sum faat, lik yau day hay.

It's quite clear (even with same lineage practitioners) that not all chisau, nor its definition, is the same. I'm sure we are practising totally different things.

For me, this roundabout discussion has reached the end of its course. I will say that chisau isn't everything in wing chun....but it's the major \nucleus part of it. Fighting is fighting, but the difference is how you reach your destination. The Chinese believe in intelligent learning -- meaning that the actual training in gung-fu itself shouldn't damage you in the process. After all, it rather defeats the objective of learning a method that proports to proctect you, when you are doing that all by yourself during learning the method. Sure, there will be injuries along the way...but it should be kept to a minium. To me, just like chisau, learning to fight should be on a progressive level. I agree you have to fight in order to become good at fighting, but what I don't agree upon is fighting (my definition of fighting, and not yours, Terrence, which I say as merely sparring in a club) before you are ready. Again, I ask the people here: If you can't handle full intensity chisau at close proxity to your opponent, what makes YOU think you can handle full out gor-sau when the delivery of power and the permutations of attacks (hands & legs) are greater? Maybe you can all run before you can walk?

Kev: Good to see you here again. I'm sorry but my English comprehension isn't very good, so I'm struggling to understans some of your points. Keep it up anyway, I'm sure lots of people here love to read your ideas.

k gledhill

08-26-2007, 09:52 AM

like you just said and I have said before, if chi-sao is a bicycle we arent all riding the same one , check out desmond in london , he can show what im trying to write ;) words can never give the picture /feeling/ motion..sadly...we all THINK we are doing the same thing because we call it chi-sao.

chisauking

08-26-2007, 05:25 PM

Kev sez: like you just said and I have said before, if chi-sao is a bicycle we arent all riding the same one , check out desmond in london

Very true, the only thing we can be sure about chisau is the label....even then, some call it chisao.....cheesau......cheesesauce. But all jokes aside, I prefer to drive my car instead. LOL!

This is the reason why I always advocate meeting up with all my fellow wing chun practitioners......why my hand of 'friendship' is always open.....why I subscribe to chisau gatherings.....because only by 'feeling' the actual chisau or doing can we truly understand each other. There will always be communication problems over the net because there's no common form of reference.

In regards to meeting Desmond -- again -- (the last time was when we were at one of Wong Sheung Leung's last seminars, where Desmond & Pascal were trying to best each other), I would love to see him again now that he's on a higher level, but Gary has given me so much to work with, I have no time to spare really. All my time is taken up running my stupid pub or training. Any way, I will be organising another Lam Man Hog (Gary Lam) seminar here in London in September, so maybe I can catch up with Des, then. Or, Des can come and 'feel' the GL method himself and report on the difference? You know the saying: there's always a mountain higher.

k gledhill

08-27-2007, 06:03 AM

Always a mountain..many guides, all take us to a view only 'they' have reached ...walk on :D

forever young

08-28-2007, 10:50 AM

So the last thing you need while you are trying to cultivate power release is someone else doing the same thing?

IMO "the ability to utilize the mass in an efficient/effective way while developing the coordination and timing necessary to deliver the mass" means actually releasing via hitting.. Doesn't mean trying to kill the partner either...

well ok look at it this way, when releasing FULL POWER with FULL MASS at as close a range as chisau is imho a quickfire way to get seriously injured as i have to say when i hit full power/full contact im actually hitting, and when im 'releasing power' via chisau i can and will 'feed my partner' something to work with

Not all Chi Sao is freestyle full power, but working the mechanics means working the mechanics doesn't it?

i dont think i said it was :confused: and anyway the op was 'whats wrong with full contact chisau' so im actually saying this :D and with regards to the mechanics yes working them means working them BUT the power/aggression i display
1) has no bearing on the mechanics and
2) has no direct relation to the intensity of the chisau

Would this not then mean actually working to release power in the form of wing chun striking? Doesn't one need to cultivate the ability to release good power under these very tough close range, short bridge conditions? And isn't the only way to refine that skill is by training it diligently and realistically <with progressive power and progressive resistance> as one would any other technique?
well yes BUT the abilities you mention must be able to directly translate to your fighting abilities (short range, short bridge, mass utilization, correct timing, explosive power etc etc) so we do need to cultivate these abilities diligently
AND realistically but i as i am absolutely sure that chisau has little to no bearing on ones fighting abilities you must translate them into REALLY REALISTIC not chisau as this is not realistic and people do not fight like that

I wonder when people's energy vector leaves the line... Are people just sticking to the hands to control, or are they training to let them/help them leave the center and then follow the line to the core. In the old days we used to blast each other all over the floor, and had hella fun doing it too... :cool:
dunno about that vector stuff i just do wing chun :D

Are people learning to sense and naturally release all the body "springs"/energy that should be loaded when the partner's energy no longer fills the line..? IMO this is what WCK sticking tactics are all about..
well if you are talking about lat sau jik chung then im wsl lineage so this is considered within my lineage as one of if not the most important part of the system HOWEVER as i have found out, to have lsjc switched on ALL the time
1) limits the game a little
2)is easy to set up or 'misdirect' as when you know someones reaction is always gonna be 'hand forward' you can create all sorts of hell for them (kali destruction works wonders on those for example)

Again it's not at all about trying to take the guy's head off.. That misses the whole point IMO..
exactly :D but when 99.99 percent of 'full contact chi sau' is exactly that then you should see my point

YungChun

08-29-2007, 05:32 AM

well ok look at it this way, when releasing FULL POWER with FULL MASS at as close a range as chisau is imho a quickfire way to get seriously injured

First off it depends on the context.. IOW what you are working on at the moment.. In general I am working toward, or the cooperative chi sao is working toward freestyle chi sao.. So, I am mainly talking about the latter.

With the latter I have two things in mind:

1. The power released is dependant on what people can handle.

2. High power release is done in a safe way.. EG not to the head without gear.

'whats wrong with full contact chisau' so im actually saying this

Yes "full contact" was mentioned, I am talking anything harder than light contact.. Up to full contact.. IME all but the most advanced players cannot generate much "killing power" with their "inch ging" and working that, with "good power" is tough and needs incorporation into the platform as per considerations for safety as I mentioned.

with regards to the mechanics yes working them means working them BUT the power/aggression i display
1) has no bearing on the mechanics and
2) has no direct relation to the intensity of the chisau

Aggression aside.. goes to intent.. I don't understand how the "power you display" could have "no bearing on the mechanics used"/trained within the platform of the drill..

BUT the abilities you mention must be able to directly translate to your fighting abilities (short range, short bridge, mass utilization, correct timing, explosive power etc etc) so we do need to cultivate these abilities diligently
AND realistically but i as i am absolutely sure that chisau has little to no bearing on ones fighting abilities you must translate them into REALLY REALISTIC not chisau

Then why train any WCK techniques in Chi Sao? Chi Sao integrates many subcomponents, techniques, mechanics, and so on, into a dynamic/real time platform. If the platform is used to train key WCK techniques and mechanics then to use it for A and B but not for C, where A,B and C are clearly related, does not make any sense to me..

Is chi sao fighting? No.. Is it intended to train numerous techniques and hone attributes FOR WCK fighting yes, for me it is. If it is useful for training/cultivating WCK attributes then all close range WCK mechanics, techniques and reactions should ultimately—when the student is ready—be trained and applied as realistically as possible <energy release/inch ging/forward pressure> within the drill platform *in order for* optimal transition to more difficult conditions, eg fighting.. IOW there should be clear and apparent use of body energy going on...

well if you are talking about lat sau jik chung then im wsl lineage so this is considered within my lineage as one of if not the most important part of the system HOWEVER as i have found out, to have lsjc switched on ALL the time
1) limits the game a little

IMO to switch "this" off, where "this" means forward spring energy and chasing santa vs chasing hands... is to "switch off" Wing Chun.. *For me*, at this point it is no longer WCK training, it is training something else...

Chi Sao the way I have been taught and train it, is akin to two people each holding a high pressure water hose <energy> aimed directly at each other. So long as the hoses are pointed directly at each other <the center> they cancel each other out and both people stay dry.. The moment one person's aim <energy> deviates from this center canceling position he gets soaked by the other person’s hose <energy>.. <PP>

Just my thoughts..

k gledhill

08-29-2007, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by forever young View Post
'whats wrong with full contact chisau' so im actually saying this
Yung chun:
Yes "full contact" was mentioned, I am talking anything harder than light contact.. Up to full contact.. IME all but the most advanced players cannot generate tons of power with their "inch ging" and working that, with "good power" is tough and needs incorporation into the platform as per considerations for safety as I mentioned.

me:
At an early stage we develop simple arm structures capable of withstanding punching force , not collapsing etc.lok sao....Then Ging strikes / forcefull punching, this is what the early chi-sao should be developing in seung ma ~ toi ma ...by allowing hits not blocking each other sticking....Seung -ma ~ Toi-ma is an introduction a force exchange, timing a "head on collision". Its purpose is to give each partner the opportunity to develop stopping force that utilizes the inward elbows of SLT to 'occupy' our centers , not by needing to stick , but by being centered NOT allowing entry to our own targets...By angling to the side and back in a line formed by the foot of an inward turned foot of SLT /\ we allow the guy stepping in [1/2 step] to come , we stay with it AND hit in the same timing using an arm that is both covering our centerline and making fist contact ....our stance should look like a rear foot directly behind the line of our punch / or \ ....
The test, so to speak, of this portion of the sm~tm movement should have the incoming attack re-step forwards to face the now shifted partner , in doing so see if the partners structure is mobile or flat footed /weight on rear ,unable to move any further with the attack....the striker/angling off line should quickly try to deliver GING through the ground to the structure to the chest [as contact area] if the force isnt generated from the leg your wasting your time ...
Waiting for this timing to come otherwise will be negelected for the sake of feeling entry rather than "here I am wide open, hurt me ...if you can :D" you will be amazed at how easy it is to dissolve force if it isnt delivered correctly ...never mind sticking , trapping , etc...quite humbling experience for many who claim to have done most of the system , only to be asked to perform a simple punch in chisao that can either shift me back several feet or cause pain....fast hands are a show , in a real fight you have to stop people with the force of your strike , patty cake sticking feeling arms isnt the way to develop this most basic fundamental VT action...

Many wck 's play a sticking game of "you cant hit me 'cause Im sticking to you"...fights dont start with a 2 armed roll in contact...they start from a face off / argument/ baselines ...if we use the 'water hose' analogy we each have a hose, no water yet is coming out [no contact]...when then attempt is made to get within hosing distance, rather than stay in front trying to use water to deflect water , we step with and out of the way of the attempted dousings line of force and THEN turn on the water so we can both stay dry and get the other wet, while his stream of water is flowing past us on our sides....if our hose/s is/are interupted or the intended path of our water is blocked , our techniques [ jut, pak, bong] allow us to keep the water flowing even at 1/2 flow to regain full flow [2 arms] while maintaining our hose line across the hose line of the others so it cant spray us ....if one maintains that each partner has 2 hoses [ 2 arms] we always try to stay to the outside of the 2 hoses so we can use our 2 in rotation against 1 while the other 1 is completely useless being on the other side of the water fight....trap to maintain this situation using forward attacking steps , inward elbows that allow the hoses to stay on target while the elbows keep the required control lines to avoid getting wet ourselves....

the facing of chisao is only to give each a platform in random exchange for the instinctive 'move' from the lines of water from the hose at the last second , allowing us to catch the over extended attack...the clearing techniques of pak, jut etc.. are done facing, but not to be done so in a water fight , but so we are square as SLT [ so we can reach with each hose equally across 1 hose line ] and then done from a FIGHTING point of view to remove potential hosings WHILE maintaining movemnt to an attempted facing of 2 hoses , something we always avoid by shifting to a dry side ..or a persons weak hose , jab, overextended lead , bull charge . Its important to be the guy hosing longer than trying to shift to avoid hosing so one cant simply run and jump to the sides out of range ...One has to gain controlling positions early ....If facing a fight as training one can block some water but neve all of it , in a game of odds we simple raise our dry factor....
The Knives of the system teach this concept but on a finite level , cutting the hoses using the same tactical avoidance and ultimatley aiming to shut down the waterpump/ hydrant asap to avoiding the same being done back ....fight a mirror of yourself and you will see this .

for this training to work we need to allow each other to be touched /hit/ pushed/ to develop the strikes not the stickyness, more about alignment of the hoses to always be on target while keeping the elbows as a 'second' hand so to speak...learned correctly and one arm can act as two , add rotation of 2 arms with this ability and we see the 'edge ' needed to fight ourselves never mind someone else ...but as said we need to fight others to make this work as 2 vt guys simply stalemate due to knowledge of the impending counters etc... more 'quality control' seeking mistakes brought on by sustained pressure of attacks etc...

forever young

08-29-2007, 08:56 AM

Chi Sao the way I have been taught and train it, is akin to two people each holding a high pressure water hose <energy> aimed directly at each other. So long as the hoses are pointed directly at each other <the center> they cancel each other out and both people stay dry.. The moment one person's aim <energy> deviates from this center canceling position he gets soaked by the other person’s hose <energy>.. <PP>

Just my thoughts..
you are quite right, this is certainly one way of playing chisau and i wont say its wrong its just tbh after spending a lot of hours playing chisau like that i feel that when nino states there is more to it than just that and after a lot of hours (of which im sure you have spent ) playing chisau im inclined to agree so in keeping with the hose analogy i will say this, Unless you always bring a spare set of dry clothes why not just spend time getting into positions where you can soak your partner while minimizing the risk to yourself and just try getting the position and moving on because you DONT actually have to soak each other to know you are both gonna get wet during the game
just my 02 :D

YungChun

08-29-2007, 09:03 AM

I agree with the movement, etc.. But I am trying to address the chasing hands sticking issue.. The hose analogy is not intended to address details but it does cover the idea of energy and occupying the line with that energy..

Extending the example with movement, which I fully agree with, angle changes, moving the centerline, and so on, we can apply the same analogy with the water hose..in terms of maintaining its aim while moving, if the partner is chi sao does not maintain his aiming with facing and following again he gets soaked..`

What is not addressed there in the example is the idea of 'chung chi" or heavy sticking... Initially, <luk sao> the "flow" of water or energy is minimal..IE the energy from the elbows supported by the body, when/if the partner's flow is interrupted--his "aim"or flow is off--then our flow is freed AND THEN turned up to full, IE body power is added and you have the 'heavy sticking' body power. Now at 'full flow' he is blown down through the full blast of the energy taking up his position..

The key is that the target of such energy is the core and not shut off, or redirected away from the core, into as was mentioned, "hand chasing"..

YungChun

08-29-2007, 09:26 AM

you are quite right, this is certainly one way of playing chisau and i wont say its wrong its just tbh after spending a lot of hours playing chisau like that i feel that when nino states there is more to it than just that and after a lot of hours (of which im sure you have spent ) playing chisau im inclined to agree so in keeping with the hose analogy i will say this, Unless you always bring a spare set of dry clothes why not just spend time getting into positions where you can soak your partner while minimizing the risk to yourself and just try getting the position and moving on because you DONT actually have to soak each other to know you are both gonna get wet during the game
just my 02 :D
I hear you...to each his own...

Thanks for the idea exchange/discussion..

t_niehoff

08-29-2007, 09:38 AM

Terrence sez: When people do chi sao, regardless of their intensity or skill at chi sao, neither side is moving, behaving, acting like they will in fighting. Chi sao only "works" when both sides cooperate and play the same nonfighting game.

CSK: I think we practice chisau -- maybe even wing chun -- in a totally different manner \ appraoch, Terrence. Our chisau is very dynamic.

It doesn't matter how you or anyone *does* chi sao -- how realistic you try to make it, how dynamic it is, etc. -- it, chi sao, is not by its very nature anything like contact fighting. Nothing. Nada. And anyone who has any significant experience fighting would immediately see that. I could show someone in minutes why chi sao is entirely unrealistic.

Chi sao "works" because both sides are cooperating by doing certain things (playing by wing chun "rules"), and not doing others (what people will really do in fighting), so as to make the exercise/drill function. A good analogy is that chi sao is like aikido's randori -- the intensity, dynacism, etc. isn't what makes that drill unrealistic; what makes it unrealistic is that your opponent is not behaving/acting/moving like he really will in fighting. Instead he's behaving in certain prescribed, fixed, and not realistic ways that actually permit the aikido -- or in the case of chi sao, wing chun -- techniques to "work." All it takes is for your chi sao partner to not play by wing chun "rules" and all your chi sao "skills" will go out the window -- because they are based on false actions, premises, responses, etc.. They are based on your partner feeding you what you believe is "wing chun".

Chi sao is a limited drill (or at least should be) that can be used to teach/learn certain movments, techniques, skills, etc. but it can't train anyone on how to really use them in fighitng. Can't. Because you can only learn how to use those movements, techniques, skills, etc. in contact fighting by contact fighting. And you can't use chi sao to extrapolate how to "use wing chun principles" -- in fact, you can't even see WCK principles at work in chi sao. You only see chi sao (the artificial game) principles at work. And these do not, in many, many cases, correspond to fighting principles. Chi sao and contact fighting are two entirely different and distinct games, with very different sets of "rules" and principles and skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. There is very little significant cross-over.

As I said, anyone who does significant contact fighting will see that for themselves quite easily. Only the people just playing chi sao would believe otherwise. Of course, it is quite easy to prove me wrong -- just show me someone playing chi sao and then have them actually fight/spar a decent nonWCK opponent (especially in contact fighting) and let us see how they correspond. What you'll see is that people can't amke what they do in chi sao work consistently in fighitng. And that should be telling.

YungChun

08-29-2007, 10:12 AM

Totally disagree..

Any decent boxer will assume a stiff plane spotter stance; probe you with his luk sao..and when he senses the moment he’ll enter with a right tan sao and finish with a mean left fook.. :rolleyes::p:cool:

YungChun

08-29-2007, 10:45 AM

Some interesting thoughts on ChiSao training, which I assume the author feels has a connection to actual fighting..

--------------------

AO: Okay. And this moves into Chi Sao (sticking hands) as well?

RC: Sure.

AO: I've noticed many people seem only to train Chi Sao in a mechanical, technical way, with not much exploration or experimentation. How do you prevent this from happening in your approach?

RC: Over the years, I've come up with conceptual methods to help get students passed the drill.

AO: Could you explain that a little more?

RC: Sure. Wing Chun already has a progression. Chi Sao, Luk Sao etc… these are mechanical methods, they don't really explain the strategies behind the methods. For example, what I like to do is say OK - you have a dozen or so basic tools for Chi Sao - let's say Pak Da, Lap Da, Tan Da, etc. You're relatively good at these, but then you're not quite sure how to vary them or change them. You need to have different methods. What I did was I took all these methods and broke them down. I have fourteen ways of breaking them down, but even then, a person can discover more. It's just a start, until a student can cross over from ignorance to wisdom.

The first of them is called Mun Fa or asking, or also known as the inquiring method or Yin Fa, which is to entice or lead them in. What I do is I give pressure to a point and then that gives rise to my method or tool, based on my opponent's reaction. This way I check and ask what the opponent is going to do. Once I do that, he has a response and I'm better able to adequately use that against him. For example, I might press an opponent. If he reacts a certain way, with feeling and sensitivity, I can use the Tan Da concept. Let's say in another case where I'm being pressed heavily, I might need to run away from that pressure, this is called Jou Fa - the running method. This is where I run away from your pressure and then it gives me a rise to a new tool - so that's another way.

For example, I can run away from your pressure then I come with Tan Da - my point is it's not just a technique way of doing things, it's a method of using the mental method to guide and create the changes of your moves from there.
Another method is called Jeet Fa or interception. Sometimes people attack very quickly and in the space of one beat you can be hit. What I need to do is to break the opponent's speed and beat him to that punch. I need to intercept him. Let's say he's about to punch and hit me - I intercept him on the 3/4 beat or half beat. So this is a method of interception. Sometimes I see opportunities and I'm feeling them so I see the opponent hasn't time to move so I might steal in or leak in and hit him. I see and opportunity and I steal it, Leaking is different - it is when I passively come across and just take advantage of that situation at that moment.

Another method I practice is where I like to see how would I defend against a certain attack and just try the movement on my opponent. So it might be where I link from one movement to another - so that's another method. This method is called Jiu Fa, which is the method of crossing or moving.

Methods of evasion, or Sim Fa is the study of displacing my body - to dodge or move my body. There are two variations of this, one where I use the small evasion, and simply shift or bend my torso to evade or use the large evasion method, where I use my step to evade.

There might also be a method where I have to guide an opponent into walls or objects or different directions - this is called the Dai Fa - method of guiding. You're trying to hit me, but I guide you, of course - I redirect you or put you in another situation where it's not a favorable outcome for you . You meant to hit me, but obviously I took control of the situation.

Another method is when an opponent gives me a lot of power or force, so I borrow his power. This is another mental method - the method of borrowing. My opponent's power comes to me, I borrow it, I simply absorb it into my structure and then I can use his power against him because my body's like a big spring - you push me into the ground and then I come back and release it back into you.

There are also methods of uprooting. By uprooting, I don't just mean body and stance - I'm trying to mentally uproot you.

The reverse of that is called sinking - I have a method of collapsing you, making your structure collapse or making you stop looking for opportunities to try to hit me or take advantage.

There's also ways of swallowing force or absorption of force and then ways of extending my force and expelling my force. To use the analogy again, my body is like a spring, you push into me and I absorb it; when you let go, I spring out and hit you - this is a natural method.

There's also a method of linking and delinking the body, which I call Tuen Fa. I extend my hand and I delink my hand from my body - I don't mean just take it off, what I'm saying is dropping and bending and folding the joints. I can break or I can connect my tools with my body structure at any time.

The main idea behind my emphasizing mental methods is that Wing Chun practitioners should have some sort of key words as a guiding light to help practitioners. This way the practitioners can say, "All right, I need to have sensitivity - I need to have a vocabulary to explain my methods, otherwise it's just always going to be random - you just never have the method. These fourteen methods are not written in stone, but these are fourteen good guidelines that I use to help students get the idea. It's often said in Chan (Zen) Buddhism.- if the student is deluded, he needs his sifu to guide him; but when the student is enlightened, he can guide himself. My training method is simply a vessel to take the ignorant to wisdom.

t_niehoff

08-29-2007, 12:39 PM

What you don't understand, and can't understand because you lack the fighting experience to understand, is that Robert's "mental methods" -- really tactics -- can be **taught** or **learned** in chi sao, but just like everything else how they are used, how they are really applied, is not like they are in chi sao. Chi sao and contact fighting are two very, very different games. Playing the first (chi sao) won't give you insight or skill with the second (fighting), but the second (fighting) will make you see the actual benefits and limitations of the first (chi sao). Only by and through actual fighting experience (results) can someone reach educated and informed opinions as to the benefit and limitations of the exercise that prepares you for the task.

k gledhill

08-29-2007, 02:23 PM

much of the chisao training is redundant ...

YungChun

08-29-2007, 07:16 PM

What you don't understand, and can't understand because you lack the fighting experience to understand, is that Robert's "mental methods" -- really tactics -- can be **taught** or **learned** in chi sao, but just like everything else how they are used, how they are really applied, is not like they are in chi sao.
Ahhhhh...

I guess that's why I can't understand how that could be so when you also state there must be a 1 to 1 relationship between training and application, which you also state is not the case here... :confused::eek::rolleyes::p

At least you're consistent Terence...Consistently inconsistent...

If only I had the 'right experience' like you do, then I could contradict myself with confidence, like you do...

t_niehoff

08-29-2007, 07:31 PM

Ahhhhh...

I guess that's why I can't understand how that could be so when you also state there must be a 1 to 1 relationship between training and application, which you also state is not the case here... :confused::eek::rolleyes::p

At least you're consistent Terence...Consistently inconsistent...

I said that good, effective training consists of a 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence between learning, training, and doing. Traditional wing chun training - which Robert was referring to in your excerpt - which includes chi sao, doesn't have that correspondence. That's one of several reason why classical TCMA training sucks and has produced so little in the way of good fighters. But if people persist in using chi sao, they need to realize its place and its limitations. Personally I think chi sao is a waste of time or at best a severely limited drill that has been over-used by the theoretical nonfighters, and it is much more effective (gets better results) to use a sparring platform to teach, to learn, and to train: in that way, you get that 1-to1-to-1 correspondence (at least you can if your instructor knows what he is doing - a rarity in WCK circles).

Matrix

08-29-2007, 08:31 PM

To me chi sau is like using training wheels when first learning to ride a bike. Useful when you start but after a certain base level of competancy is obtained they have to come off if you ever want to be able to actually ride.To me, the riding a bike or training wheels analogy is somewhat off base. I think chi sao is more like tuning a musical instrument. You can't just tune it once and expect it to stay that way for very long. You need to revisit it on a regular basis. Of course, you still need to play the instrument (fight/spar) otherwise what are you tuning it for. ;)

Of course these are just analogies, so we should take them with a grain of salt. :)

YungChun

08-31-2007, 07:33 AM

I said that good, effective training consists of a 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence between learning, training, and doing. Traditional wing chun training - which Robert was referring to in your excerpt - which includes chi sao, doesn't have that correspondence. That's one of several reason why classical TCMA training sucks and has produced so little in the way of good fighters. But if people persist in using chi sao, they need to realize its place and its limitations. Personally I think chi sao is a waste of time or at best a severely limited drill that has been over-used by the theoretical nonfighters, and it is much more effective (gets better results) to use a sparring platform to teach, to learn, and to train: in that way, you get that 1-to1-to-1 correspondence (at least you can if your instructor knows what he is doing - a rarity in WCK circles).

The Chi Sao platform allows for dynamic and alive—random and resisting interaction training, of an extended sticking environment--it is, micro-moment training. Chi Sao is not fighting, since the parameters of the drill are artificial—but the study of energy and position is very “real” because you are in fact studying real human energy and real human position with real human resistance in the ranges and conditions that WCK operates in. There are only so many kinds of energy and resistance humans generate at these ranges and with contact, we explore these conditions in Chi Sao. So, Chi Sao takes a very narrow set of <clash conditions> and expands them for study. In this way a very brief moment of clashing in close range fighting is magnified and extended so it can be explored and studied.

Boxers box, Grapplers Roll, WCK people “stick” or use bridge contact position and energy.. The best way to get familiar with and enhance/cultivate this sensitivity is to train sticking and resistance—Chi Sao. These tactics must be trained and ingrained with the proper contact conditions, creating these conditions is what Chi Sao does. Using visual and tactile senses we condition our WCK tactics and techniques to happen naturally in conjunction with the correct contact conditions, position, energy, etc. Training extended sticking for a contact based system is only logical.

By taking this brief moment of contact, sensitivity and movements, reflexes/reactions/techniques can be cultivated in real-time and made the FOCUS of study in a way not possible when in actual combat. In actual fighting these conditions normally exist for only a very small period of time, too short a time for an extended focus of study. By extending contact time in training and training specific tactics under these conditions the WCK fighter endeavors to increase his experience level under contact/clash conditions, eg a “fighting” for control of the center of gravity and centerline in WCK ranges and using WCK tactics and tools.

You suggest that WCK moves in chi sao don't correspond to fighting.. I say—how we employ any given tool in Chi Sao, when attacking your partner is essentially the same way you are going to use it in fighting—it better be otherwise do stop training that way.. If I gum da in Chi Sao, I am going to gum da in fighting the same way... The technique gum da is the same technique.. If I punch someone in Chi Sao or in fighting I am punching using the same punch and mechanics.. If I am training to face and follow—doy ying—in chi sao then I am training the same attributes, facing and following that I will use in fighting, after all facing and following is facing and following. Also, very important is the ability to change tactics and adjust to live resistance. Chi Sao is great at this becaue it involves continuous attacking/changing and resistance at sticking range. Chi Sao trains us to connect our moves, tactics and tools to adapt in real-time under resistance within WCK ranges and conditions..

I fully agree with you, Robert and Hawkins that Chi Sao has been given too much focus.. What’s really wrong with Chi Sao isn’t that Chi Sao in itself is “bad” it’s that is has eclipsed everything else. All these other critical attributes are not addressed or not addressed enough because chi sao has taken too much attention away from these other skills. Although a large set of attributes are cultivated in Chi Sao when trained correctly, there are many that are not.. And so one must re-evaluate the amount of time spent on Chi Sao and not let it take over all training.

t_niehoff

08-31-2007, 08:17 AM

The Chi Sao platform allows for dynamic and alive—random and resisting interaction training, of an extended sticking environment--it is, micro-moment training.

I agree that chi sao is dynamic to a degree, has random elements, and some resisting within certain parameters, but it is definately not "alive" training -- because your partner in the drill/exercise is not behaving realistically as a genuinely resisting opponent would. The drill/exercise only works because your partner is doing certain restricted things that permit you to respond.

Chi Sao is not fighting, since the parameters of the drill are artificial—but the study of energy and position is very “real” because you are in fact studying real human energy and real human position with real human resistance in the ranges and conditions that WCK operates in. There are only so many kinds of energy and resistance humans generate at these ranges and with contact, we explore these conditions in Chi Sao. So, Chi Sao takes a very narrow set of <clash conditions> and expands them for study. In this way a very brief moment of clashing in close range fighting is magnified and extended so it can be explored and studied.

It's not just the parameters of the drill that are artificial, the energy, positions, timing, etc. are all artificial -- they do to represent what people will really do in fighting. This is extremely easy to see for yourself. Start in a contact position, like luk sao, and have your partner, a nonWCK guy, just fight, just try to really hit you, grab you, shove you, pull you, grapple you, etc. And you'll see that will "look" nothing like chi sao. Go watch

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=aliveness&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

and see the part 30 seconds are so in where you see what contact fighting will "look" like. That's the situation, context where our skills need to work -- the energy, movement, timing, etc. in that is nothing like chi sao. Doing chi sao will not prepare you to deal with that. What prepares you to deal with that is dealing with that. The chi sao helps you learn in a non-alive setting.

Boxers box, Grapplers Roll, WCK people “stick” or use bridge contact position and energy..

But boxing and grappling are "alive", are realistic, correspond to actual fighting, whereas chi sao does not.

The best way to get familiar with and enhance/cultivate this sensitivity is to train sticking and resistance—Chi Sao. These tactics must be trained and ingrained with the proper contact conditions, creating these conditions is what Chi Sao does. Using visual and tactile senses we condition our WCK tactics and techniques to happen naturally in conjunction with the correct contact conditions, position, energy, etc. Training extended sticking for a contact based system is only logical.

You can't "get familiar with" contact fighting skills by not contact fighting. Chi sao will not, and cannot, ingrain "proper contact conditions" because those conditions never occur in chi sao. Actually just the opposite happens: chi sao trains (or habituates) mainly ineffective and poor responses. And that's because you are not getting fed realistic energy, movement, timing, etc. Because you are not getting fed these things, you can never develop the skills, abilities, and even understanding of what you need to do to deal with those things.

You see, this is the problem: people do chi sao and try to extrapolate it to contact fighting. IOWS, take an artificial, unrealistic exercise/drill and use experience in that environment to come up with ideas (concepts) of what is "proper contact conditions", how to appropriately act, etc. But that doesn't and can't work -- it's going about it backwards. When you do some contact fighting with some decent people who aren't *programmed* to feed you certain things, like most WCK people, you'll see that most of the "responses", actions, etc. that you train in chi sao are not the things that will work.

And, they aren't meant to IMO. Chi sao isn't supposed to be anything other than a very limited learning tool.

By taking this brief moment of contact, sensitivity and movements, reflexes/reactions/techniques can be cultivated in real-time and made the FOCUS of study in a way not possible when in actual combat. In actual fighting these conditions normally exist for only a very small period of time, too short a time for an extended focus of study. By extending contact time in training and training specific tactics under these conditions the WCK fighter endeavors to increase his experience level under contact/clash conditions, eg a “fighting” for control of the center of gravity and centerline in WCK ranges and using WCK tactics and tools.

I agree that chi sao allows us to isolate and practice movements repeatedly. This is its advantage. But the trouble is that in doing that, the environment changes, and is no longer "alive" or realistic. Let me use the lop sao drill as an example. No one will be able to perform, at least not consistently, in fighting the lop sao as it is done in the drill as just about everything is "off" (the distance, timing, facing, etc.) from what you will need to do to really make it work in fighting. But the drill permits you (both sides) to repeatedly practice the movement - just not as it will really be applied. You are able to perform it in the drill because the partner feeds you certain things, he can do it because you feed him certain things, and if either of you goes outside of those parameters, the drill will fall apart. It is precisely the same with chi sao.

You suggest that WCK moves in chi sao don't correspond to fighting.. I say—how we employ any given tool in Chi Sao, when attacking your partner is essentially the same way you are going to use it in fighting—it better be otherwise do stop training that way..

That's my point -- anyone doing chi sao is, by the very nature of the drill, not behaving in the way they will in fighting. They can't; the drill prevents it. Neither side is behaving realistically. If either side did, they would be fighting! You can learn movements, tactics, etc. but how they will really be applied can only be seen in contact fighting. My view is that the more a person does chi sao, the worse they become. And that's because they are habituating actions, responses, etc. that simply won't work in a realistic situation.

Chi sao can introduce you to the tools of WCK. But to learn to use those tools in a realistic situation/context requires you put yourself in a realistic situation/context and then try to use the tools to "solve" the combative problems you encounter. You can't learn to do that in chi sao since you will never encounter those realistic situations/contexts.

If I gum da in Chi Sao, I am going to gum da in fighting the same way... The technique gum da is the same technique.. If I punch someone in Chi Sao or in fighting I am punching using the same punch and mechanics.. If I am training to face and follow—doy ying--in chi sao then I am training the same attributes, facing and following that I will use in fighting, after all facing and following is facing and following.

This is theory -- it's like saying "the lop da I do in the lop sao drill will be just like what I do in fighting". It won't be. And it is very easy to see for yourself -- go do some contact fighting against some good nonWCK people.

But I understand your position, because I used to fell the same way. It is intuitive and expected that when we practice something in a drill it will correspond to what we do in fighting. And it should. But it doesn't in the traditional drills.

I fully agree with you, Robert and Hawkins that Chi Sao has been given too much focus.. What’s really wrong with Chi Sao isn’t that Chi Sao in itself is “bad” it’s that is has eclipsed everything else, all the other attributes not addressed or not addressed enough because chi sao has taken too much attention away from these other skills. Although a large set of attributes is cultivated there are many that are not.. And so one must re-evaluate the amount of time spent on Chi Sao and not let it take over all training.

It's not that chi sao is "bad", it's that people don't see it for what it is, and they can't unless they actually do a significant amount of contact fighting.

YungChun

08-31-2007, 09:04 AM

I agree that chi sao is dynamic to a degree, has random elements, and some resisting within certain parameters, but it is definately not "alive" training -- because your partner in the drill/exercise is not behaving realistically

It's not just the parameters of the drill that are artificial, the energy, positions, timing, etc. are all artificial -- they do to represent what people will really do in fighting. This is extremely easy to see for yourself. Start in a contact position, like luk sao, and have your partner, a nonWCK guy, just fight, just try to really hit you, grab you, shove you, pull you, grapple you, etc. And you'll see that will "look" nothing like chi sao. Go watch

Once past the rolling if I attack, he is trying to defend/attack as am I..

Chi Sao's "restrictions" from where I sit involve mainly what is the starting point of the drill, the rolling.. You start by *sharing the centerline* at bridge range in luk sao, which is intentionally a neutral starting point.. Beyond that the only real "restrictions" are that you are supposed to be training and using Wing Chun methods and tools, not shooting or using a grapplers clinch to wrestle or disengagement to wheel kick...... Adding these things in to your mix is fine, but we are talking about conventional Chi Sao to train regular WCK something they are NOT DOING IN THE VIDEO...

THEY ARE NOT TRAINING WING CHUN...

They are not using any WCK methods or tools... Nor are they trying to..

Start in a contact position, like luk sao, and have your partner, a nonWCK guy, just fight, just try to really hit you, grab you, shove you, pull you, grapple you, etc. And you'll see that will "look" nothing like chi sao. G

Did that, been there.

The first thing a boxer does is disengage.. If you cannot USE THAT DISENGAGEMENT then you can't use WCK tactics..

<One of> The first things a grappler does is disengage, drop level..and shoot.. If you can't deal with that learn to grapple--learn to grapple anyway...

and see the part 30 seconds are so in where you see what contact fighting will "look" like.

No, that's what it looks like when THEY do whatever that was, which also was not fighting or Wing Chun, using WCK tools and tactics...

Let me use the lop sao drill as an example.

Why are you using a baby drill as an example when we are talking about chi sao?

It’s like comparing Chess with Tic Tac Toe..

In our curriculum that drill is learned with several variations in the first couple of months of training and then DROPPED... That drill IS choreographed and does not allow for random use of movement, tools, CONTACT and tactics.

Chi Sao is a dynamic and an alive interaction of almost infinite combination of actions that is not choreographed and involves random movement, footwork, attacking, counter attacking and use of WCK tactics and tools.

Gary Lam said: {paraphrasing}
The <attacking/intercepting> movements we use in Chi Sao are the same movements we use in fightng..

anyone doing chi sao is, by the very nature of the drill, not behaving in the way they will in fighting.

Once past the rolling if I attack, he is... He's trying to defend/attack as am I..

Chi Sao's "restrictions" from where I sit involve mainly what is the starting point.. You start by *sharing the centerline* in luk sao it is intentionally a neutral starting point.. Beyond that the only real "restrictions" are that you are supposed to be training and using Wing Chun methods and tools....

They can't; the drill prevents it.

Once past luk sao I am trying to control and attack..

In fighting I am trying to control and attack..

My partner same.. The difference is the starting point... Not including level of contact, finishing moves, etc.

I personally have benefited from the training, if you have not, then that's your experience..

This is theory -- it's like saying "the lop da I do in the lop sao drill will be just like what I do in fighting".

Lop in Chi Sao, not the "lop sao drill" is like:
A boxer saying that the jab he uses on the focus mitts <in Mat's really cool "alive" use of the drill> will be the same jab he uses in the ring.. Except the feedback is minimal in a pad drill..

chi sao trains (or habituates) mainly ineffective and poor responses. And that's because you are not getting fed realistic energy, movement, timing, etc. Because you are not getting fed these things, you can never develop the skills, abilities, and even understanding of what you need to do to deal with those things.

Yes when not trained correctly..

It's not that chi sao is "bad"

Hmmmmm... :rolleyes:

k gledhill

08-31-2007, 10:29 AM

Sometimes all that is needed is a simple process...if some drills that show more mobility and proximity to contact strikes arent involved ...then you wont see them as a functioning bridge to transend to fighting ..using abstract arm shapes ...feel compelled to arm chase off your centerline ? then instead move to realign your weapons at a side ...dont know what side to go ? thats your partners role ..he delivers random sides for you to maneuver too and practice firing on the move , using a weapon that has one functional distance...how do i keep that distance and move with the guy ? just stepin and see what he does ? does he go to far away , to close, straight back....? if he attacks back ..whats your response to instantly cover your self and hit him without using 2 hands against his single arm ? are you a 2 armed fighter learning to fight 1 arm this way ?? questions

Liddel

08-31-2007, 07:25 PM

I agree that chi sao is dynamic to a degree, has random elements, and some resisting within certain parameters, but it is definately not "alive" training -- because your partner in the drill/exercise is not behaving realistically as a genuinely resisting opponent would. The drill/exercise only works because your partner is doing certain restricted things that permit you to respond.

This is not true of everyones Chi Sao and for me anyway, only relates to very early basic "Begining Chi Sao" Like Chi Dan Sao and Poon Sao.

Where i train we visit the basics often, and they are very Limited. But it rises in all areas like intensitiy of speed and power untill it becomes sparring or Gor Sao Lux Sao. For ME and im certain others... Sparring shows many aspects of Chi Sao from how you recieve and block/cover to how you respond to a moving resisting opponent before or after being engaged.

Which lends itself to your next comment

It's not that chi sao is "bad", it's that people don't see it for what it is, and they can't unless they actually do a significant amount of contact fighting.

Ive never agreed with you more... IMO a negitive part of most traditional teaching where i live. Not enough early explanation as to the where and hows in the end game...fighting.

Seems to me though T, that your just continuing the cylce of mis understanding about Chi Sao even though you recognise its place, dont you think....?

Many talk about how THIER chi Sao is done, you refer to the 'incorrect dead Chi sao' thats alive and well all over the world. You have a valid point which i agree with but perhaps you could continue talking about what good alive aspects are important to keep chi Sao relevant.

I add as much realism as pos to Chi Sao as im sure others are doing...judging by some of the posts.

DREW