OT :meet your meat

[golden arhat]

i couldnt watch it all can you ?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

[fopah]

I betcha alec baldwin eats meat.

[Water Dragon]

Man, that reminds me of my old meat packing days in Chicago. Glad I'm not doing that anymore!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

theres actually worse videos out there. i think the absolute worst one ive seen is of this asian fur factory where they would skin racoons and such alive. they just beat it in the head until it couldnt fight and then skinned them while they were still completely aware and alert. at one point it zoomed in on one of their little faces after it was skinned and it stirred up just about every negative human emotion one can be capable of.

i used to have a friend that worked at a slaughter house. that sick ****er loved it.
they had a grill on premisis so that you could litterally cut your lunch right off the cow. i never quite understood his enthusiasim for the trade, but god **** he brought home some of the best custs ive ever had.

[SaintSage]

PETA kills animals. PETA funds terrorists.

PETA is a problem.

[David Jamieson]

shock videos to induce vegetarianism is ...well, stupid.

However, although I like the convenience of shopping for ready to cook meat I can appreciate what is done to get it there. I can also appreciate that humans are gonna be humans and you will always find bad ones and some of those bad ones work in abattoirs.

For the most part, animals that we eat as food are killed fairly quickly which amounts to humanely when it comes down to it. This montage does not represent the greater portion in my opinion and is likely a propaganda piece.

[NJM]

shock videos to induce vegetarianism is ...well, stupid.

Or you could buy from a butcher?

[golden arhat]

when it all comes down to it i think its gotta be this
regardless of ppl's whole humans equal better than animals thing (which i dont buy into)

it comes down to this

killing = wrong

now obv there are cases where killing is a necessity like in defense of yourself
or in order to eat in dire circumstances

but

growing vegetables and such is easier than rearing feeding and subjucating entire species for meat


which makes killing for meat completely unneccessary

and killing for personal reasons e.g. u like the taste is plain evil in my opinion
something gave up its life so u can enjoy yourself

i'm sure by any other definition thats just plain selfish and evil ?

who here thinks killing is right ?

in fact
who thinks killing so u can enjoy yourself is right

who thinks its okay to deprive something of a life even before its killed ?

and i suppose technically as the top species on the food chain we can kill anything we want but still when u think about killing regardless of weither its humans or animals doesnt ur heart sink ? dont u feel anything ?

cos personally i dont want to be apart of anything that makes me feel the way i feel when i watch that video or even when i think about war
the holocaust etc
its called compassion i think
so yeah

thoughts ?

comments ?


in fact i think this goes further than just animals i think its more about the right to life and the freedom to live it

[Jow_Ga]

I love meat. I said it. So What? Even though some parts are true, they over dramatasize things! I'm not downin' veggies, but really! That was abuse! Not a real natural farm!:mad:

[fopah]

animals eat animals... so why can't we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnEtiDYR6a4

that doesnt look quick and painless.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

protein makes me big. aminals contain lots of protein. therefore there are aminals in my tummy.

[FuXnDajenariht]

shock videos to induce vegetarianism is ...well, stupid.
.

i think shock was exactly the point and unavoidable due to its very nature. what makes it stupid to bring awareness to animal cruelty on that kind of level?

as much as the radical PETA devotees, and the animals before humans mentality some of them extol annoys me im seriously reconsidering my dietary choices. theres enough human suffering going on to be concerned about, but i can't help judging that as one of the most disturbing things i ever saw on the web.....

[golden arhat]

protein makes me big. aminals contain lots of protein. therefore there are aminals in my tummy.

how can you be this selfish ?

[golden arhat]

animals eat animals... so why can't we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnEtiDYR6a4

that doesnt look quick and painless.

plenty of reasons

1 a lion doesnt take an entire speciies and lock them up so that they never have a life
nor will their children
it eats because it has to it doesnt have the capacity to farm and to survive it must kill

when u are hungry do you think
"i want to eat" ?
or do you think "i want to tear an animal limb from limb so i can feast on the bloody raw goodiness and feal the adrenaline rush through my veins" as a lion most probably does ?

[golden arhat]

I love meat. I said it. So What? Even though some parts are true, they over dramatasize things! I'm not downin' veggies, but really! That was abuse! Not a real natural farm!:mad:

its not the point

dont you think killing for your own pleasure is wrong when there are more nutritious cheaper and easier solutions to hunger ?

and actually ive talked to ppl that work at places like these

cows are dehorned without anaesthetic
pigs are castrated and have their tales pulled off without it
most battery chickens live in those conditions
and animals are farmed to such an extent that they are deprived a life even before they are slaughtered

no fields
no grass
no mothers milk
no affection
only a barn locked behind steel restraints eating constantly
for a year or so where there short miserable life comes to an end

the ways in which they r killed varies

and as for ppl who say its humane

well basically who thinks its humane to kill like this ? we have the minds to know that nutrition can be found and consumed in a much more efficient way without anyone getting hurt

we could choose not to do this but we dont because we are selfish

[David Jamieson]

i think shock was exactly the point and unavoidable due to its very nature. what makes it stupid to bring awareness to animal cruelty on that kind of level?

as much as the radical PETA devotees, and the animals before humans mentality some of them extol annoys me im seriously reconsidering my dietary choices. theres enough human suffering going on to be concerned about, but i can't help judging that as one of the most disturbing things i ever saw on the web.....


first of all the film IS propaganda and is highly selective in what it shows and does not represent the state of production in the meat production industry.

all Im saying is that if you want to be a vegetarian that's fine, but don't just expect everyone to jump aboard with that because some blood is spilled on film.

seriously, when has that ever changed anything? I mean at a level of war, we have all seen pictures of kids with half a head or their arms blown off or what have you and we still get behind wars, so don't expect any changes to occur in the way we eat chickens like they're going out of style.

[TenTigers]

That is why I hunt. Venison is high protien,contains no chemicals,steroids,growth hormones, and is lowest in fat because the animal runs wild and free, rather than penned up and force-fed. The meat quality is better,and safer.
Where can I hunt chickens?

[Mr Punch]

Where can I hunt chickens?Safeways? They're a bit slow...

That Alec Baldwin is one sick puppy, torturing all those animals to make his video. I only watch his movies to be kind to hams and turkeys.

I couldn't watch all of that video... Youtube is ****ed on Firefox.

But good luck with this one Fred, sincerely. To all of you who reckon that's not standard, I reckon it pretty much is. The US is worse than the UK in most respects in this industry (ironically given the UK's record with BSE, salmonella etc, our standards are stricter... but then who understands disease vectors enough to categorically state that BSE hadn't been incubating in US stock for ages anyway before it came out in the UK?) and at uni and working on a farm I've visited enough meat farms to be able to say that although the standards are marginally better than those shown, the margin isn't usually that big.

It's up to you. Apart from the cruelty, which is a personal decision and fair enough... what makes my mind boggle is that people would willingly eat sick, diseased animals, plus the dope factors. Don't eat sh!t would seem like a simple enough bottom line. Lions don't ( :rolleyes: :D )

Good luck Fred, I'm out of here while the getting's good...

- No meat for 21 years (though unfortunately do do dairy/eggs now and do try to source them)

[David Jamieson]

You think that's the standard for abattoirs?

it's not. Those are selective choices in that film.

[Mr Punch]

at uni and working on a farm I've visited enough meat farms to be able to say that although the standards are marginally better than those shown, the margin isn't usually that big.
I haven't said that that is the standard.

How many abattoirs/meat farms have you been to David?

[golden arhat]

That is why I hunt. Venison is high protien,contains no chemicals,steroids,growth hormones, and is lowest in fat because the animal runs wild and free, rather than penned up and force-fed. The meat quality is better,and safer.
Where can I hunt chickens?

just for the record if i hunted something i'd eat it

i mean come on i'm not wasteful

hell even if i did eat meat i still wouldnt eat half of the stuff in the supermarket
its full of ****
simple

[golden arhat]

Safeways? They're a bit slow...

That Alec Baldwin is one sick puppy, torturing all those animals to make his video. I only watch his movies to be kind to hams and turkeys.

I couldn't watch all of that video... Youtube is ****ed on Firefox.

But good luck with this one Fred, sincerely. To all of you who reckon that's not standard, I reckon it pretty much is. The US is worse than the UK in most respects in this industry (ironically given the UK's record with BSE, salmonella etc, our standards are stricter... but then who understands disease vectors enough to categorically state that BSE hadn't been incubating in US stock for ages anyway before it came out in the UK?) and at uni and working on a farm I've visited enough meat farms to be able to say that although the standards are marginally better than those shown, the margin isn't usually that big.

It's up to you. Apart from the cruelty, which is a personal decision and fair enough... what makes my mind boggle is that people would willingly eat sick, diseased animals, plus the dope factors. Don't eat sh!t would seem like a simple enough bottom line. Lions don't ( :rolleyes: :D )

Good luck Fred, I'm out of here while the getting's good...

- No meat for 21 years (though unfortunately do do dairy/eggs now and do try to source them)


:) nice to see someone who cares
i havnt eaten mammals for close on a year and i recently stepped it up to not eating meat at all
kind of a gradual thing

(y)

[David Jamieson]

I haven't said that that is the standard.

How many abattoirs/meat farms have you been to David?

you mean besides the one i worked in?

[golden arhat]

you mean besides the one i worked in?

some of my friends are training to be vetinarians and have done work experience on farms and such
and they attest to alot of what is shown being the truth

maybe ur place was a "nice" abbatoir :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

you mean besides the one i worked in?Er, yep, besides that one'd be a good start. 1 does not a good sample population make. Hence the question, 'How many...?'

[Leto]

Folks should also check out the movie called "Earthlings", narrated by Joaqin Phoenix. It not only covers the meat/food industry, but also other areas of human/animal interaction.

I will personally never kill another being as long as I can avoid it. Maybe I am just sensitive...but after being the one pulling the trigger, and seeing and hearing the pain that I caused, I will never do it again. All animals have intelligence, and can experience pain and suffering. I do not wish to have anything to do with an industry that causes so much suffering, or encourage the practice of killing by accepting the meat of the slain.

It is possible to get all the protein you need from a variety of vegetable sources. And modern food technology has even made it possible to have the "comfort" of feeling like you're eating meat when you're not. Killing animals just isn't necessary, nor is it environmentally sound. That's how I see it.

Just because our ancestors had to kill to survive does not mean we need to...it's called evolution. Ascension. We are unique among animals, and that gives us more responsibility.

I know everyone will do what they want. Ultimately, this world is completely illusionary and transitory. But interacting with it, my vow is to help release beings from suffering.

[golden arhat]

Folks should also check out the movie called "Earthlings", narrated by Joaqin Phoenix. It not only covers the meat/food industry, but also other areas of human/animal interaction.

I will personally never kill another being as long as I can avoid it. Maybe I am just sensitive...but after being the one pulling the trigger, and seeing and hearing the pain that I caused, I will never do it again. All animals have intelligence, and can experience pain and suffering. I do not wish to have anything to do with an industry that causes so much suffering, or encourage the practice of killing by accepting the meat of the slain.

It is possible to get all the protein you need from a variety of vegetable sources. And modern food technology has even made it possible to have the "comfort" of feeling like you're eating meat when you're not. Killing animals just isn't necessary, nor is it environmentally sound. That's how I see it.

Just because our ancestors had to kill to survive does not mean we need to...it's called evolution. Ascension. We are unique among animals, and that gives us more responsibility.

I know everyone will do what they want. Ultimately, this world is completely illusionary and transitory. But interacting with it, my vow is to help release beings from suffering.


u have shot someone ?

and yeah

i'm with this guy on this :)

[Leto]

Not a human...a poor little racoon that was getting into our barn and eating the chicken feed. I have also participated in the killing of chickens and turkeys, though didn't swing the axe myself (I grew up on a farm, if you haven't guessed yet). And countless fish, hooked and gutted...I have done too much killing in this lifetime already. It's all a part of the process of bringing us where we each need to be. I can only thank the beings who have interacted with me in this process, giving me the opportunity to learn and grow.

I do not judge anyone who still participates in this process...everyone is where they are, along their path. But I think the awareness created from films like these are still important, as you never know when it will trigger a reaction for someone. Ignorance and apathy are not the same as detachment.

[Liddel]

Ive seen... "Earthlings". Very interesting and thought provoking

It will change your mindset towards this issue.

Hasnt really turned me into a vegie eater, but i def go the 'Free Range' section at the local supermarket !

As long as there are slaughter houses, there will be battle fields.
Mull it over :rolleyes:

DREW

[David Jamieson]

Er, yep, besides that one'd be a good start. 1 does not a good sample population make. Hence the question, 'How many...?'

well, I worked in an abattoir for about half a year, but before that would move retired dairy cattle to a few different companies depending on who could take the animals. In each case, the kill houses were more or less the same. besides, how do you humanely kill anything that doesn't want to die in the first place? Cats and Dogs are exterminated in huge numbers annually by so called "humane" societies. I don't see too many people up in arms about that. anyway...

now and then dairy cows get worn out and can't produce anymore and these are sent to be processed into food for you and me. tasty Bar-b-q food that is.

all im saying is I can respect vegetarians if that's what they wanna be, but I would also ask that it be recognized that we are omnivorous and for more time we have been eating animals than being totally agrarian.

consider the damage that large scale production of agrarian products does as well. Think of all the slash and burn and forest destruction that has to occur for those wheat fields to exist and so on.

In the eternal struggle that is the cycle of life, eating of other animals is natural, our mouths and our teeth are specially designed to eat almost anything that is edible including other animals.

making it a moral issue is completely of mind and has nothing to do with survival.

I would also add that in the worst circumstances, all human will revert to being an omnivore as opposed to starving. so vegetarianism is a luxury of advanced society.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Killing animals just isn't necessary, nor is it environmentally sound. That's how I see it.

Just because our ancestors had to kill to survive does not mean we need to...it's called evolution. Ascension. We are unique among animals, and that gives us more responsibility.

I know everyone will do what they want. Ultimately, this world is completely illusionary and transitory. But interacting with it, my vow is to help release beings from suffering.

Killing animals will always be necessary. It's called the FOOD CHAIN!!!

I have nothing against vegetarianism, and nothing against carnivorism. I'm an omnivore. But here's something to excogitate:

1. We are not unique among animals. We are, in fact, animals. Hairless apes, to be more specific. (excepting Su Kong Tai Djin, such as he was actually just a hairy ape).

2. Evolution is not an ethical or moral process. Your kindness to animals has not forwarded nor retarded the evolutionary process one step. I rescued two kittens from starvation, but I wouldn't call that evolution. It's just kindness. And they love me so long as I feed them....and they'll only eat meat. Quite a quandary, huh?

3. Vegetarinism will never take precedence. In times of prolonged drought (such as we see in Africa right now), humans rely on animals for sustenance. Is this immoral? Of course not. It's called the FOOD CHAIN!!! But we also have agriculture...why? In case there's a shortage of livestock...say by disease, ill fortune, or natural disaster.

4. Plants are living things. Do you really espouse the wholesale slaughter of beanstalks worldwide? You animal, you....:p

5. Killing animals is environmentally sound, sometimes. Surplus animals means a shortage of food, and quicker consumption of resources. Sometimes you have to depopulate in order to secure the safety of the herd.

6. #5 brings up a good point for humans, however. We are far too large an animal herd. Our fishing is depopulating the ocean at an alarming rate. Our habitations have ruined the natural landscape for numerous species, and driven certain plants and animals to the brink of extinction and beyond. Malthus comes to mind.....there are just to many goddam people on earth.

7. #6 brings up an imporant issue for humans. As long as our populations continue to skyrocket, we'll need to keep killing and harvesting more. Sooner or later, we will **** up the Food Chain. Then humans will be the only truly well-stocked population of animals on the planet, and our fields will get exhausted from the endless crop rotations and demands we put upon it, if not from the UV scorching, chemical treatments, and atmospheric pollution. I figure we should start eating ourselves ASAP.

8. If #7 is morally reprehensible, we should immediatly begin researching the genetic splicing of animal and plant DNA. The best of both worlds....animals that feed on sunlight, crap seeds, and sprout more animals. Although creating a term to describe its predators would be tough......Veggivores? Carn-herb-vores?

[Shaolin Wookie]

And countless fish, hooked and gutted...I have done too much killing in this lifetime already. .

There's only one way to make reparations at this point in order to reset your karmic cycle on a positive note. You have to chop yourself up into little bits and feed yourself to sharks. Human chum....

mmmmmmmmmmm.......

[Leto]

We are the stewards of the foodchain, with the ability to preserve the natural environment and allow animals to live according to their natures. We don't need to live like a virus, consuming and destroying everything we come in contact with. We are advanced enough as a species to both live in harmony with nature, preserving life and environment, and have an advanced civilization.
You're right, animals will always eat other animals. I believe that we are able to transcend that cycle. But I understand you are firmly in the world of western science/old school logic, so I don't blame you for your position. I felt the same way for most of my life, and resisted becoming vegetarian for a long time, even though something deep and "illogical" was always tugging at me to stop eating meat.

In the case that no other food source is available, then killing an animal might be necessary...but it would be done with an attitude of respect and gratitude for the creature giving up its life...not as a thoughtless, heartless murder. There may seem to be no difference from a purely scientific perspective...but I believe it makes a huge difference in our lives and to our world.

As for humane societies and euthanization...who said no one talks about it? Everyone talks about it. Bob Barker used to stand up there every day and say "please get your pets spayed and neutered!"
There are a huge number of people who participate in animal rescue, taking them out of overcrowded pounds and "humane societies" and giving them a place to live until someone can be found to adopt them. My wife and I lived in a very small house, but it was enough space to take in cats and kittens. The two cats that are in our family now were from the first litter we rescued. Our two dogs are also rescued from the humane society.
Anyone who is serious about helping in this area should inquire with the humane sociery about volunteering to participate in animal rescue of some kind...I'm sure no matter where you live, they are eager for anyone who can help. They usually pay for all the food and medicine required for the animals you take in, you simply need to provide a safe place and loving kindness.

An even better act of kindness would be to serve as a foster parent for a human child or children...but far fewer of us have the resources required to participate in that. Believe me...I would be a foster parent before I will have children of my own, as soon as I have the means to do so. Human suffering is just as important as the suffering of all those animals...and there are countless children without homes, without loving families.


As for plants...I also consider their lives, and thank every one for giving themselves. Many plants you don't need to kill in order to get food from them...we eat seeds, or leaves, and fruits. Plant life is still life, and shouldn't be treated carelessly. Seeing deforestation, countless trees destroyed, also makes me sad. When I am able to, and have the land to build a home, I will chop down as few trees as possible, hopefully none. There are plenty of alternative building methods that don't require such massive waste of life. Sandbags, cob, strawbale construction...passive solar heating and solar and wind power...as I said earlier, we have all the means at our disposal to live completely comfortably and sustainably, in harmony with our environment. The only block to this is in our perception...of ourselves, our world, and "the way things are".

We resist change, but it is inevitable. Just because things have stayed the same for as long as we can remember, does not mean it will always be that way. Our memories are rather short, and our species hasn't really been around all that long, relatively speaking. Who knows what may change, and what is possible?
The argument that "this is just the way things are" is not a good argument.

[Shaolin Wookie]

We are the stewards of the foodchain, with the ability to preserve the natural environment and allow animals to live according to their natures.

I fully encourage you to walk out into a veldt in Africa and preach your sermon to a tiger. We are the stewards of nothing. Consider that in the ocean, we are nothing more than mobile bait. We do not have the power to preserve the natural environment. I mean, sometimes we'll restrain the impulse to turn a marsh or two into a parking lot, but have you looked outside? Have you ever lived in a city? We can't even survive in our own unnatrual environments....look at the increase in asthma in children, and the inbreeding on the loose, right now, in rural Alabama.:eek:



We don't need to live like a virus, consuming and destroying everything we come in contact with. We are advanced enough as a species to both live in harmony with nature, preserving life and environment, and have an advanced civilization.

We are nature. We survive. Oddly enough, we failed to see we were a part of this system all along, part of the food chain, and part of the environment. We always thought we were on top of it, and so never instituted proper population controls. And soon we'll pay the consequences for it.



You're right, animals will always eat other animals. I believe that we are able to transcend that cycle. But I understand you are firmly in the world of western science/old school logic, so I don't blame you for your position. I felt the same way for most of my life, and resisted becoming vegetarian for a long time, even though something deep and "illogical" was always tugging at me to stop eating meat.

This is really not a matter of East vs. West. It's a socioeconomic issue, regarding privilege, and not much else. You have the choice to eat how you wish. Many do not eat at all. There is nothing spiritual about it. It's just the privilege of being the proverbial "have" rather than a "have-not". You get to eat your tofu, and moralize it, too.



In the case that no other food source is available, then killing an animal might be necessary...but it would be done with an attitude of respect and gratitude for the creature giving up its life...not as a thoughtless, heartless murder. There may seem to be no difference from a purely scientific perspective...but I believe it makes a huge difference in our lives and to our world.

True. And nearly every civilization on the face of the earth has held this same respect before. Even Europeans had the same ethics, respect, and gratitude. But sooner or later, the population increase transformed cultural survival into an industry. And then we started dehumanizing each other.




An even better act of kindness would be to serve as a foster parent for a human child or children...but far fewer of us have the resources required to participate in that.

I know this isn't a popular idea, but this is a classic case of speciesism.....we're not any more valuable than a stray cat, or say, a dog. Although, it were better said "not any less valuable" as well.



Believe me...I would be a foster parent before I will have children of my own, as soon as I have the means to do so. Human suffering is just as important as the suffering of all those animals...and there are countless children without homes, without loving families.

Always been an issue, always will be. Look at the nineteenth century. It's just part of what goes on in the animal kingdom. It's how I got my cats, by the way. Same process.



As for plants...I also consider their lives, and thank every one for giving themselves. Many plants you don't need to kill in order to get food from them...we eat seeds, or leaves, and fruits.

So in that case, it'd be all right to eat eggs, right? Or maybe other embryos?



passive solar heating and solar and wind power...as I said earlier, we have all the means at our disposal to live completely comfortably and sustainably, in harmony with our environment.

I agree. But we're never at harmony. We're always subordinate. We adapt to our environment, but it can mess us up in a second. If there's comfort in nature, it's unnatural. It's that kind of thinking...the "we're above nature, not in it" kind of attitude that leads to the environmental problems in the first place. Try and control nature, and it will sooner or later slough you off. Not like a sentient being....more like a rape victim who happens to be connected to the mob. If you're the rapist, you'll get what's coming to you, or your progeny will.

Take your vegetarianism, for instance. If I were to, say, place you in the coldest region of Siberia, do you think you could survive during the winter without eating reindeer (primary source of nourishment there...kind of like sausage)? Your fields would be under a mile of snow (okay, that's an embellishment), and the only way to get your food is to import it. In order to import your veggies, you'd have to have a reliable transport system in place, or else you'd starve. A delay of two weeks might prove fatal, especially if the road gets blocked by an avalanche or rogue snow drift, or a fallen tree. This also presuposses you have a strong economic system in place, where companies feel they owe an obligation to servicing the customer, and won't just let you starve...b/c, to be honest, you're not in a good place to deliver to (you're just good customer service fanfare).

Would you say it is in this Siberain's best interest to refrain from eating meat? Note: this is a big question, so treat it seriously.....



The argument that "this is just the way things are" is not a good argument.

I agree. But hey, that's just the way it is.

[David Jamieson]

We are the stewards of the foodchain, with the ability to preserve the natural environment and allow animals to live according to their natures. We don't need to live like a virus, consuming and destroying everything we come in contact with. We are advanced enough as a species to both live in harmony with nature, preserving life and environment, and have an advanced civilization.
You're right, animals will always eat other animals. I believe that we are able to transcend that cycle. But I understand you are firmly in the world of western science/old school logic, so I don't blame you for your position. I felt the same way for most of my life, and resisted becoming vegetarian for a long time, even though something deep and "illogical" was always tugging at me to stop eating meat.

In the case that no other food source is available, then killing an animal might be necessary...but it would be done with an attitude of respect and gratitude for the creature giving up its life...not as a thoughtless, heartless murder. There may seem to be no difference from a purely scientific perspective...but I believe it makes a huge difference in our lives and to our world.

As for humane societies and euthanization...who said no one talks about it? Everyone talks about it. Bob Barker used to stand up there every day and say "please get your pets spayed and neutered!"
There are a huge number of people who participate in animal rescue, taking them out of overcrowded pounds and "humane societies" and giving them a place to live until someone can be found to adopt them. My wife and I lived in a very small house, but it was enough space to take in cats and kittens. The two cats that are in our family now were from the first litter we rescued. Our two dogs are also rescued from the humane society.
Anyone who is serious about helping in this area should inquire with the humane sociery about volunteering to participate in animal rescue of some kind...I'm sure no matter where you live, they are eager for anyone who can help. They usually pay for all the food and medicine required for the animals you take in, you simply need to provide a safe place and loving kindness.

An even better act of kindness would be to serve as a foster parent for a human child or children...but far fewer of us have the resources required to participate in that. Believe me...I would be a foster parent before I will have children of my own, as soon as I have the means to do so. Human suffering is just as important as the suffering of all those animals...and there are countless children without homes, without loving families.


As for plants...I also consider their lives, and thank every one for giving themselves. Many plants you don't need to kill in order to get food from them...we eat seeds, or leaves, and fruits. Plant life is still life, and shouldn't be treated carelessly. Seeing deforestation, countless trees destroyed, also makes me sad. When I am able to, and have the land to build a home, I will chop down as few trees as possible, hopefully none. There are plenty of alternative building methods that don't require such massive waste of life. Sandbags, cob, strawbale construction...passive solar heating and solar and wind power...as I said earlier, we have all the means at our disposal to live completely comfortably and sustainably, in harmony with our environment. The only block to this is in our perception...of ourselves, our world, and "the way things are".

We resist change, but it is inevitable. Just because things have stayed the same for as long as we can remember, does not mean it will always be that way. Our memories are rather short, and our species hasn't really been around all that long, relatively speaking. Who knows what may change, and what is possible?
The argument that "this is just the way things are" is not a good argument.

holy jebas.

this is practically a textbook on oidealism not based or grounded in reality.
yeesh. have you ever missed a meal? lol

I find your views to be rife with pollyannna syndrome, unrealistic and not in keeping with the reality of the world. But that's just my opinion. don't take it personally and by all means regard me as a barbarian or something.

But when it comes down to it, I will eat what I can afford to and what I like to eat. currently that includes the flesh of animals.

p.s my pets are spayed and neutered, does this make me a better person or just responsible to my neighbours?

[Shaolin Wookie]

p.s my pets are spayed and neutered, does this make me a better person or just responsible to my neighbours?

It just makes you a sadistic *******, where it regards your pets. but hey, I'm in that category, too.

I bet you if my cats could remember getting spayed and neutered every day of their lives, they wouldn't think of me so fondly.

[Leto]

I'm not saying everyone in the world must be a vegetarian. If I lived somewhere where there was nothing else to eat, I would eat meat. Since I have the ability to choose, a priveleged life of relative comfort, (like many people in America and Europe and other industrialized countries)...it is my choice to take advantage of my situation to avoid killing wherever I can. The problems we face were not caused by people eating meat, don't think I believe anything is as simplistic as this. From the beginning, I said that I understand everyone is in their own place, and don't expect eveyone to change. I'm just describing my place. Where I am is not "reality" for some other people.
I am not going to feel guilty for being born into a place where I am not starving and have everything I need to survive comfortably. Tigers don't need to hear sermons, and I wouldn't get in one's way if I could help it. I wouldn't be wandering around looking for tigers, in any case. Live and let live. Living in harmony doesn't mean having nature subservient to us. That's the attitude that got us where we are now, as has been said. To me, it's leaving as small of a "footprint" as possible. Not getting in the way of the natural course of things. When nature comes knocking on my door in the form of old age, sickness, disaster, accident, a determined predator, or whatever, well then that's that.
We come into conflict with large predators because we're competing for the same resources. With the technology and knowledge to create adn grow our own food sources without stripping the land, this conflict is no longer so necessary. We don't need to live in a cave, hoping a bear or lion won't come along and want the same cave. Things happen, and if you have to fight to survive then you do it. Of course, if we could just stop competing with ourselves long enough to put our knowledge and resources towards creating a society that can be sustained on this planet, perserving the life which naturally flourishes here...my idealism might seem closer to reality.

This "reality" hinges on the idea that humans are essentially primitive beings who can't help but fight eachother for basic survival needs. Some of you don't see this ever changing, because it's always been that way (as far back as we can remember). That's the difference. Call me an idealist, living in fantasy, illogical and irrational, or whatever...I have hope for us. There is more to our existence than physical survival.

I do eat eggs right now...only from local farms with free-range chickens. Same with dairy...I eat little of it, but I get it from the local organic food co-op.
Eventually I expect I will have an entirely vegan, "raw foods" diet.

This is definately not for everyone...I never could have seen myself going through with this, even four or five years ago. I don't blame you guys for thinking it is crazy, I though it was, too, for a long time. I grew up on a farm, and was used to eating meat for every meal. Sometime in my late teens there was a "turning around" in my perception, and everything started to seem upside down. Please don't be offended in my attempt to describe my perception of things...I don't expect everyone will like it or identify with it. I maybe crazy in your world...that's how it goes.

Being vegetarian is one way that I express my vow to not kill. Not everyone feels the need to impose this sort of vow on themselves. Not everyone has the luxury to do so. I imagine that anyone reading an internet forum, however, does pretty much have the luxury to choose. Anyone watching a video on youtube has internet access...a computer, probably a house or an apartment to stay in, most likely a car or other transportation, and plenty of access to a variety of foods from all over the place. This is the target audience...not folks living on the savannah in Africa, or people living in huts in the Amazon basin, or the starving impoverished masses across the world. I am not "preaching" to the tribes of Siberia that they shouldn't eat caribou, or to the nomads anywhere in the world. I am only talking to you people, here on the internet. If any of you are having a rough time, and can't afford to buy vegetables, or have no access to them, I am truly sorry. I did not intend to offend anyone. I wish you the best, and hope you have happiness in your life.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't blame you guys for thinking it is crazy, I though it was, too, for a long time. I grew up on a farm, and was used to eating meat for every meal. Sometime in my late teens there was a "turning around" in my perception, and everything started to seem upside down. Please don't be offended in my attempt to describe my perception of things...I don't expect everyone will like it or identify with it. I maybe crazy in your world...that's how it goes..

I have no issues with your vegetarianism. I actually prefer your outlook to the alternative from the other end of the spectrum. I just don't think you have a very...good?...definition of evolution in your head. Perhaps "healthy" is a better word than "good."

Plus, I'm just looking to argue with someone.:)


I am not going to feel guilty for being born into a place where I am not starving and have everything I need to survive comfortably.

Nor should you. Just look at the world "comfortable" in many ways, and think about what that really means, for you.


I'm not saying everyone in the world must be a vegetarian. If I lived somewhere where there was nothing else to eat, I would eat meat. Since I have the ability to choose, a priveleged life of relative comfort, (like many people in America and Europe and other industrialized countries)...it is my choice to take advantage of my situation to avoid killing wherever I can. The problems we face were not caused by people eating meat, don't think I believe anything is as simplistic as this. From the beginning, I said that I understand everyone is in their own place, and don't expect eveyone to change. I'm just describing my place. Where I am is not "reality" for some other people.

This is particularly what I was getting at, and trying to get you to talk about by leading you in this direction. The question I'd like to ask, and don't really have an answer for, b/c everyone has to supply their own---if everything does indeed depend upon environment, socioeconomic standards, and geography, is there really a higher ethic, a method of ascension, or an ethic to evolution? Ethics, transcendece, etc....they're a form of emolument, gained by a certain life of relative ease that doesn't directly involve going out and doing the "dirty" work. More than anything, their claim to returning to nature's harmony, or natural communion with the earth, are entirely the opposite to their effect. It's why I like Taoism and Chan, but hate the way they're always explained. I read someone say: "There is no Buddah nature, there is only you," and I see--there is no supernatural, transcendent property. There is only you. You are part of nature. You are an animal. You are in communion with nature, until you begin to attempt to transcend it. There lies the aberration. And then I hear an explanation that tries to impose some kind of transcendent quality into the equation, and jsut get fed up. Plus, if the ethic of "vegetarianism" is a higher ethic, it would be incumbent upon the Siberians to starve themselves to death and spare teh reindeer. This suggests something: that ethics are geographically, culturally, socioeconomically exclusive, and therefore do not period anything particularly profound, or "high". They're just one more illusion in our human abstraction (humans, removed from natural processes, natural cycles, and Natural Law).

Perhapse even more imporantly, they're species-specific.


Tigers don't need to hear sermons, and I wouldn't get in one's way if I could help it.

What about the tiger spiritual? LOL:D

[Leto]

I was using the word evolution loosely, obviously, not speaking strictly of genetic, physical evolution. As we have advanced to a certain level of understanding and technical ability, limitations we once had as a species are being overcome. It was once very hard to get to a new continent, it would take generations to travel from one side of the earth to the other. Now we can fly anywhere on earth in a day. We once were victim to many ailments which we have learned to avoid or cure. We now have a much better knowledge of how the environment works than we ever did. We know how to treat the soil to make it favorable for certain types of plants. We have an understanding of the basic building blocks of organic life. These advances in knowledge could be used to help provide basic needs for everyone on earth. I wouldn't want to force anyone to give up the "native" life, living the way their ancestors have always lived, in their own environment. That is a relatively small number of people, however. Far more on earth now live in cities, depending on industry and government to provide the means to live.

Ideally, I would hope to see our advances in science applied to a sustainable life of harmony with whatever environment we live in. Allowing people, no matter what their environment, to have the means of having all they need without needing to destroy anything (hence sustainable).

In terms of Taoism and Buddhism...or at least the teachings of Lao Tzu and Guatama Buddha and other buddhas and bodhisattvas...none of them say that "eating meat is always wrong", or that no one should ever eat meat. The ethic has nothing to do with what you eat...it's really about being dedicated to compassion, to the goal of the relief of suffering, and the right of all beings to have a basically happy life. Religions tend to take things literally, making metaphors and symbolism into dogma. Not eating meat is a symbolic gesture meant to remind you of this. It's a way to prove to myself that I am seriously committed to compassionate action...to not killing, to help beings wherever I can. I can't go out and stop the inhumane treatment of all animals and people personally, but I can give a few cats and dogs a happy, comfortable life, and I can be kind to the people I interact with.
In the teachings of Lao Tzu,
"Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things."

obviously, that's not exclusive to Lao Tzu either.

Lao Tzu also talks about being content with less, rejoice in simple things. That's something I take seriously as well. I grew up working on a farm, and I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty. It was comfortable in the sense that we were never hungry, had a place to live, and were relatively healthy. Not comfortable in the sense of being able to sit around and do nothing all day long...we were always busy, and the kids had jobs and chores to do just as my parents did.
A life of luxury is not the kind of life I want or have ever had. Of course, my life on the farm would seem like a life of luxury to some people in the world. It's all relative. It's all illusion...everything I do here is just a symbol, an act, a mask to play a part in the illusion. Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.

Specific acts and individual practices cannot be universally applied. Compassion, kindness, unconditional love...I see these things as universal. A life of service can manifest in many ways, depending on the culture and the background, but its foundation is always the same.
There may be no scientific way to prove that there is a genetic or evolutionary purpose or benefit for such morality/compassion...but I don't require one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Evolutionary purpose....it's kind of funny how it works out.

Check out the heterozygous advantage studies by JBS Haldane, particularly with regard to sickle cell anemia and malaria.

As for the rest, ah well. You're a little bit of a hippie, but it's all good.:)

[golden arhat]

well, I worked in an abattoir for about half a year, but before that would move retired dairy cattle to a few different companies depending on who could take the animals. In each case, the kill houses were more or less the same. besides, how do you humanely kill anything that doesn't want to die in the first place? Cats and Dogs are exterminated in huge numbers annually by so called "humane" societies. I don't see too many people up in arms about that. anyway...

now and then dairy cows get worn out and can't produce anymore and these are sent to be processed into food for you and me. tasty Bar-b-q food that is.

all im saying is I can respect vegetarians if that's what they wanna be, but I would also ask that it be recognized that we are omnivorous and for more time we have been eating animals than being totally agrarian.

consider the damage that large scale production of agrarian products does as well. Think of all the slash and burn and forest destruction that has to occur for those wheat fields to exist and so on.

In the eternal struggle that is the cycle of life, eating of other animals is natural, our mouths and our teeth are specially designed to eat almost anything that is edible including other animals.

making it a moral issue is completely of mind and has nothing to do with survival.

I would also add that in the worst circumstances, all human will revert to being an omnivore as opposed to starving. so vegetarianism is a luxury of advanced society.

of course its of mind

we dont need meat to survive so if u have the option why wat it if u can get on just fine without killing

in modern society eating meat is selfish and cruel

in ancient society it was natural and necessary

vegetarianism isnt a luxury its a natural evolution
we have an advanced mind so we can rationalise the rational thing to do would be to not kill unless you have to
no ?

[Leto]

Wookie: yeah, I'm probably a lot of a hippy. I even look like one, now. *lol* Someone's got to do it.

The discussion was useful for me, to be able to really think about and try to articulate my thought process about being vegetarian. It's not like I joined a religion or some group that said I shouldn't eat meat...it just occurred to me, over time, that it was what I should do. It was a turning around of perception which didn't have a consciously thought out, logical purpose behind it. I was not used to operating this way...I was raised to be cold and calculating, I initially went to school for engineering. My life has flipped, and I am working on acting on my feelings and intuition as much as logic.

So thanks, everyone, for being a reflection for me, and giving me an opportunity to reflect.

Arhat: that pretty much sums it up for me...I have been given the choice, so I choose not to participate in killing. The fact that other people don't have that choice shouldn't affect our choice.

[golden arhat]

Killing animals will always be necessary. It's called the FOOD CHAIN!!!

I have nothing against vegetarianism, and nothing against carnivorism. I'm an omnivore. But here's something to excogitate:

1. We are not unique among animals. We are, in fact, animals. Hairless apes, to be more specific. (excepting Su Kong Tai Djin, such as he was actually just a hairy ape).
we are unique its self evident
evolution gave us the brain that lets us sympathise etc



2. Evolution is not an ethical or moral process. Your kindness to animals has not forwarded nor retarded the evolutionary process one step. I rescued two kittens from starvation, but I wouldn't call that evolution. It's just kindness. And they love me so long as I feed them....and they'll only eat meat. Quite a quandary, huh?
if evolution gave u a powerful brain and ur brain came up with ethics and morality

then ethics and morality are part of evolution

simple


3. Vegetarinism will never take precedence. In times of prolonged drought (such as we see in Africa right now), humans rely on animals for sustenance. Is this immoral? Of course not. It's called the FOOD CHAIN!!! But we also have agriculture...why? In case there's a shortage of livestock...say by disease, ill fortune, or natural disaster.
veg is not there for the perpose of feeding us in case live stock ran out
there is a reason most of our teeth are designed for grinding and cutting as opposed to just 2 for tearing
humans "relied" (notice the past tens) we no longer need to eat them


4. Plants are living things. Do you really espouse the wholesale slaughter of beanstalks worldwide? You animal, you....:p

when was the last time a plant tried its hardest to get away from you ?



5. Killing animals is environmentally sound, sometimes. Surplus animals means a shortage of food, and quicker consumption of resources. Sometimes you have to depopulate in order to secure the safety of the herd.
no it isnt

we use far more rainforest for cattle production for far less food than we could get if we used the same space for vegetables



6. #5 brings up a good point for humans, however. We are far too large an animal herd. Our fishing is depopulating the ocean at an alarming rate. Our habitations have ruined the natural landscape for numerous species, and driven certain plants and animals to the brink of extinction and beyond. Malthus comes to mind.....there are just to many goddam people on earth.

i know



7. #6 brings up an imporant issue for humans. As long as our populations continue to skyrocket, we'll need to keep killing and harvesting more. Sooner or later, we will **** up the Food Chain. Then humans will be the only truly well-stocked population of animals on the planet, and our fields will get exhausted from the endless crop rotations and demands we put upon it, if not from the UV scorching, chemical treatments, and atmospheric pollution. I figure we should start eating ourselves ASAP.
or start having less kids

and stop relying on meat to sustain us

its much easier




8. If #7 is morally reprehensible, we should immediatly begin researching the genetic splicing of animal and plant DNA. The best of both worlds....animals that feed on sunlight, crap seeds, and sprout more animals. Although creating a term to describe its predators would be tough......Veggivores? Carn-herb-vores?


lolz i have no problem eating meat that didnt require somethign to die for it
as long as its not bad for me

eating meat is unnecessary we can get all the required nutrition without killing

killing is wrong

simple

[golden arhat]

holy jebas.

this is practically a textbook on oidealism not based or grounded in reality.
yeesh. have you ever missed a meal? lol

I find your views to be rife with pollyannna syndrome, unrealistic and not in keeping with the reality of the world. But that's just my opinion. don't take it personally and by all means regard me as a barbarian or something.

But when it comes down to it, I will eat what I can afford to and what I like to eat. currently that includes the flesh of animals.

p.s my pets are spayed and neutered, does this make me a better person or just responsible to my neighbours?


u dont need to eat meat
u can get all the comfort and nutrition from otherplaces
that dont require killing

so why would u eat meat its wrong
its murder

if i needed to eat meat say in siberia i would of course shoot and kill my food cook it up and eat it
but i dont have to so i dont

what part of this dont u get

do u like the fact that innocent things have to die to feed your habit ?

[DPL]

You know, if you make a conscious choice to be a vegetarian because you believe it's healthier to choose that route, go right ahead and more power to you.

But please, for the love of God, don't start on this crap that it's a more sensitive, intelligent, evolved, kinder way to be. You're just trying to make yourself feel more comfortable by killing and eating something that doesn't remind you of yourself.

Life consumes life. That's the way of the world. Deal with it.

Plants have all five senses (think about it - they sense light (sight), they grow roots toward nutrients and water (taste), they produce pheromones to warn other plants about predatory attacks (scent), they react to noise (hearing) and they react to physical contact (touch). They show remarkable intelligence in defending themselves from predators. They adjust to their environment and to the presence of other cooperative or antagonistic plants.

The good thing for you is that they don't register pain, fear or anguish in ways that we can readily understand, so that makes it okay to kill and eat them 'cause you don't have to look at their tortured little faces as they get consumed.

Please stop anthropomorphizing just the critters that can move about freely as a way to justify killing, mutilating and eating the babies of those that can't.

- This message has been brought to you by Citizens for the Rights of Non-Mobile, Carbon-Dioxide-Breathing Creatures

[golden arhat]

You know, if you make a conscious choice to be a vegetarian because you believe it's healthier to choose that route, go right ahead and more power to you.

But please, for the love of God, don't start on this crap that it's a more sensitive, intelligent, evolved, kinder way to be. You're just trying to make yourself feel more comfortable by killing and eating something that doesn't remind you of yourself.

Life consumes life. That's the way of the world. Deal with it.

Plants have all five senses (think about it - they sense light (sight), they grow roots toward nutrients and water (taste), they produce pheromones to warn other plants about predatory attacks (scent), they react to noise (hearing) and they react to physical contact (touch). They show remarkable intelligence in defending themselves from predators. They adjust to their environment and to the presence of other cooperative or antagonistic plants.

The good thing for you is that they don't register pain, fear or anguish in ways that we can readily understand, so that makes it okay to kill and eat them 'cause you don't have to look at their tortured little faces as they get consumed.

Please stop anthropomorphizing just the critters that can move about freely as a way to justify killing, mutilating and eating the babies of those that can't.

- This message has been brought to you by Citizens for the Rights of Non-Mobile, Carbon-Dioxide-Breathing Creatures

when was the last time a palnt tried with all its might to stop u from eating it ?

plants arent conscious
they arent alive in that sense of the word

maybe plants as a whole kind of collective have a consciousness we dont know

i choose not to eat meat not because it reminds me of myself
i choose not to eat meat because i think killing is wrong

full stop

that is the ending of consciousness

i think abusing the environment is also wrong

but plants dont have a consciousness in the way that animals do

and bottom line if u went up to a cow and sawed its head off ur heart and mind would immediatley tell you you have done something wrong and you would feal guilty

before u have time to pontificate about it you know its wrong its natural to feel this
its called guilt
same as if u shot a person

[DPL]

i choose not to eat meat because i think killing is wrong


Then stop eating. At all.

You are killing something every single time you eat anything. Just because you don't recognize its pain doesn't mean it doesn't feel it.

Murderer.

Life consumes life to continue living. You must kill to live.

Where do you draw the line on 'how much' consciousness something has to have before it's wrong to kill it?

It's like the Denis Leary skit. The cuter something is the harder time we have killing it. Baby seals and otters are really cute, but cows and chickens are ugly so we eat 'em. But for guilt-itarians, even the cows and chickens are too cute so they just kill plants.

Plant killer.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

how can you be this selfish ?

meh .... i buy from a farm or a local butcher when i can. when i cant, i at least get the **** that says "free range" on the package. if i had the money i'd raise an slaughter the animals myself. if i had the time id hunt them. unfortunately i have neither of those and i feel that meat is a natural part of my diet.

[TenTigers]

ok, so yesterday, I'm in Chinatown eating dim-sum. They seat me at a table, and there were three other white folks,(two Chinese also)besides me. They are very, very white bread,pompous,know it all ("I know dim-sum,so I'll order. Oh waiter,can I have some springrolls, and pork buns, and siu-mai,please?") types. So I order some dishes for myself. Some tripe, chicken feet, duck blood, and an order of stewed beef tendon! These people were horrified!:eek: The two Chinese people found their reaction ammusing. One girl, finally got up the courage to ask me,"How can you eat that?"
I told them,"I used to work for a friend who's family owned a butcher shop. They fed me everything that fell on the floor.":D
It's fun to see someone hold back vomit at the table.

[SimonM]

LOL

I've lived in China for more than 2 years now and I still don't find eating feet to be attractive. But I've had conjealed goat's blood in Huoguo and I've had more than one dish with unidentifiable things I think were tripe in it.

Not my favorite eating but solely because of how it tastes.

My wife swears that the pigs feet really are the best tasting part... and she's **** near a vegetarian due to the fact she just doesn't like to eat too much meat.

[TenTigers]

I have to admit, the duck's blood was just for effect. I really don't like the way they serve it. (thick chunks with just sprinkling of scallion)I've had it before at another place, and they slice it thin, and smother it with scallions,mung bean sprouts, and oyster sauce, which is the way my ex used to make it. The other stuff are simply some of my faves. The only thing I can't eat, is when they serve the tripe (ngau-jop-tripe with turnip) they serve this brown,fibrous lung thing, which tastes like dirty liver. But my Sifu loves it, so problem solved.

[TenTigers]

The best pig's feet I've ever had was crispy pata-at a Fillippino resteraunt. The whole foot was deep-fried and served with a spicy sauce. It's so good, but you can apply it directly to your arteries.

Not to worry, though-They don't kill the pig, they simply lop off its feet, so it's really quite humane. It's fun to see them scurrying about on their little skateboards. They seem to be having so much fun.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The first time I had tripes was in Caen, France. Second time when my one of my ex-girlfriends took me to a Vietnamese restaurant.

It was always in a soup broth. ARe you saying they just serve it up on a plate?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

shock videos to induce vegetarianism is ...well, stupid.

...This montage does not represent the greater portion in my opinion and is likely a propaganda piece.

Clearly it is a propaganda campaign. Being Muslim, I don't buy meat from just anywhere. In Islam, the animals can't be treated the way that's seen in this obvious PETA sponsored piece. Animals MUST be treated properly and killed quickly an humanely.

I've found over the past year that when I go to a Halal market, I'm seeing people who clearly aren't Muslim buying there because of this and the quality of the meat itself.

[TenTigers]

yeah, it's just a bowl of tripe,turnips(that lung-thing)and juice. They also have another tripe dish,a different cut-served with ginger and scallions-also very good.
Adifferent tripe dish served in dim-sum is ngau pak-yip. It's not the thick honeycombs,soft and chewy, but a thinner type more rubberbandy and with a slight crunch-like jellifish.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

plenty of reasons

1 a lion doesnt take an entire speciies and lock them up so that they never have a life
nor will their children
it eats because it has to it doesnt have the capacity to farm and to survive it must kill

when u are hungry do you think
"i want to eat" ?
or do you think "i want to tear an animal limb from limb so i can feast on the bloody raw goodiness and feal the adrenaline rush through my veins" as a lion most probably does ?


Do you support PETA?

[David Jamieson]

Clearly it is a propaganda campaign. Being Muslim, I don't buy meat from just anywhere. In Islam, the animals can't be treated the way that's seen in this obvious PETA sponsored piece. Animals MUST be treated properly and killed quickly an humanely.

I've found over the past year that when I go to a Halal market, I'm seeing people who clearly aren't Muslim buying there because of this and the quality of the meat itself.

yes, both Halal and Kosher meat are "ritualistically" slaughtered by comparison to this film, but they are not the only ones who process meat animals with what can be called humane measures.

More often than not I will buy Halal chicken and there is a lot of Halal foods available where I live because of the healthy population fo people who only eat that. :-)

But I still wouldn't say that what is shown in that film is the norm of all slaughter houses. That film shows the extremities.

I wonder if they will ever produce a film on peta people who release animals from factory farms and labs willy nilly only to die because they are not wild and are not equipped to function in the wild.

when you base your actions purely on your emotions, logic and rational go out the window and more often than not the result is disastrous.

arhat, keep your rabid accusations to yourself kid and try not to regurgitate too much propaganda because one day you may feel like a downright ass for doing so.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

well, I worked in an abattoir for about half a year, but before that would move retired dairy cattle to a few different companies depending on who could take the animals. In each case, the kill houses were more or less the same. besides, how do you humanely kill anything that doesn't want to die in the first place? Cats and Dogs are exterminated in huge numbers annually by so called "humane" societies. I don't see too many people up in arms about that. anyway...

now and then dairy cows get worn out and can't produce anymore and these are sent to be processed into food for you and me. tasty Bar-b-q food that is.

all im saying is I can respect vegetarians if that's what they wanna be, but I would also ask that it be recognized that we are omnivorous and for more time we have been eating animals than being totally agrarian.

consider the damage that large scale production of agrarian products does as well. Think of all the slash and burn and forest destruction that has to occur for those wheat fields to exist and so on.

In the eternal struggle that is the cycle of life, eating of other animals is natural, our mouths and our teeth are specially designed to eat almost anything that is edible including other animals.

making it a moral issue is completely of mind and has nothing to do with survival.

I would also add that in the worst circumstances, all human will revert to being an omnivore as opposed to starving. so vegetarianism is a luxury of advanced society.


As the British say "Spot On". :cool:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

when was the last time a palnt tried with all its might to stop u from eating it ?

plants arent conscious
they arent alive in that sense of the word

maybe plants as a whole kind of collective have a consciousness we dont know

i choose not to eat meat not because it reminds me of myself
i choose not to eat meat because i think killing is wrong

full stop

that is the ending of consciousness

i think abusing the environment is also wrong

but plants dont have a consciousness in the way that animals do

and bottom line if u went up to a cow and sawed its head off ur heart and mind would immediatley tell you you have done something wrong and you would feal guilty

before u have time to pontificate about it you know its wrong its natural to feel this
its called guilt
same as if u shot a person


Plants aren't alive? Then using that frame of logic (PETA based) it's time to form

PETP.

You murderer's of the very thing that transforms the carbon dioxide you people who are afraid of meat exhale and converts it to oxygen must be made to change your ways.

You think nothing of cutting down trees to make popsicle sticks and movie theatre popcorn boxes.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

yes, both Halal and Kosher meat are "ritualistically" slaughtered by comparison to this film, but they are not the only ones who process meat animals with what can be called humane measures.

More often than not I will buy Halal chicken and there is a lot of Halal foods available where I live because of the healthy population fo people who only eat that. :-)

But I still wouldn't say that what is shown in that film is the norm of all slaughter houses. That film shows the extremities.

I wonder if they will ever produce a film on peta people who release animals from factory farms and labs willy nilly only to die because they are not wild and are not equipped to function in the wild.

when you base your actions purely on your emotions, logic and rational go out the window and more often than not the result is disastrous.

arhat, keep your rabid accusations to yourself kid and try not to regurgitate too much propaganda because one day you may feel like a downright ass for doing so.


Oh it most DEFINITELY NOT the norm. This is just PETA propaganda. They find a place or two in violation and push it out to the people gullible enough to believe it happens everywhere.

[golden arhat]

Do you support PETA?

whats that ?

[TenTigers]

it's a greek cheese. I for one have been a strong supporter of peta. I go to this diner twice a week and order a greek salad,which comes with lettuce, tomatoes,olives,red onions,peta, and grape leaves. I also get the baklava,which by the way, is a wonderful way to seduce a woman.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks to David for some sensible answers (my experiences have differed from yours, but I'd be more than delighted to believe or be shown that your experiences were the norm), and thanks to Fred for your enthusiasm, and thanks to Ten Tigers for the humour injection. The rest of you are very silly. To equate killing plants with killing animals does not require a response.

The bottom line is, everyone draws a line somewhere.

When I was a very strict vegan, I was under attack from Vegan Reich types about eating honey and wearing leather. To me, honey doesn't kill the bees, it helps to keep them, and **** it, we're talking insects here: that was my line. Though of course I wouldn't wear silk at the time.

I also couldn't afford the really well-made eco-friendly cellulose-based plastic footwear that didn't really have such a long life (esp with the manual work I was doing), so to me the only remotely eco-friendly options were stout leather footwear (usually ex-army: the best pair lasted me eight years and I got them repaired until they were more resin and screws than leather!).

But David, there's no reason for Fred to stop his statements for fear of looking silly. Young people are always more idealistic and stronger in many ways than us older sell-outs, so good luck to him.

Plus, as a once strong vegan, I know that generally people much more often attack you vehemently for opposing their world view, rather than the much less common way round of the veggie-type forcing their views down other people's throats (although, yes, of course Fred started this thread). I used to keep it quiet because I had serious grief through just saying I was vegan: it was sneers, violent accusations about being a hypocrite, insane rambling ad hom attacks and blah blah blah.

[Mr Punch]

I also get the baklava,which by the way, is a wonderful way to seduce a woman.I prefer a gimp mask myself but if the ski mask works for you that's OK too I guess.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

it's a greek cheese. I for one have been a strong supporter of peta. I go to this diner twice a week and order a greek salad,which comes with lettuce, tomatoes,olives,red onions,peta, and grape leaves. I also get the baklava,which by the way, is a wonderful way to seduce a woman.

That was bad. You are SO bad! :D

[DPL]

whats that ?

Partial Ethics Thickheadedly Applied
Perfectly Elegant Teenager Angst
Pretentiously Egalitarian Tripe Association
Proudly Evolved Trolls of America
Prawns for the Ethical Treatment of Anemones

[SimonM]

The only thing I can't eat, is when they serve the tripe (ngau-jop-tripe with turnip) they serve this brown,fibrous lung thing, which tastes like dirty liver. But my Sifu loves it, so problem solved.

I've had that twice. The first time I ordered it by accident after misreading the menu. Tried it, hated it.

The second time a friend of mine ordered it claiming it was the very best thing on the planet, figured maybe the first restaurant just prepared it poorly. Tried it, hated it more.

Since then I simply avoid the dish containing that... stuff.

[Mr Punch]

Partial Ethics Thickheadedly Applied
Perfectly Elegant Teenager Angst
Pretentiously Egalitarian Tripe Association
Proudly Evolved Trolls of America
Prawns for the Ethical Treatment of AnemonesThat's quite good.

On a different note - how come the UK gets such a bad rep for tripe and black pudding, and in a Chinese restaurant they're frigging delicacies?

[TenTigers]

I grew up in a Russian jewish household and we eat beef tongue,liver,chicken gizzard, chicken feet, stuffed derma-which is cow's intestine. Every culture has their own delicacies.

[banditshaw]

I tried Haggis once....terrible stuff.
Hey Ten, the Baraclavas are pretty tasty no?
:cool:

[TenTigers]

yeah, but the wool gets stuck in my teeth

[golden arhat]

yeah, but the wool gets stuck in my teeth

among other things
especially in the pursuit of seducing women :p

[FuXnDajenariht]

ok whats this bizness about killing plants people?

i mean really......coooome oooon. :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

CAUTION: GRAPHIC POST AHEAD.


























A good friend of mine worked killing chickens for a company in the city here called Granny's...It was part of a day labour minimum wage thing.

They went from farm to farm breaking the limbs of many chickens, getting covered in excrement as the chickens were terrified. Then they put hooks through the chickens foot and jammed a vaccuum device up their rear to suck out the intestines...all while the chicken was still aware.

To me that is evil...pure evil. I am personally a proponent of using animal products but I believe they should come from not only healthy for me sources, ie no steriods and all that other crap, but the places they grow up should be similar to the wild with lots of space to walk around and they should be killed with great respect and reverence...how in the he ll can people not respect their food? It gives us life!

Oh yeah, I'm sorry but I can't watch that video. But if anybody has doubts about these practices, get the lowest paying job on an industrial sized farm killing animals and tell me you think that is humane.

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2bCKojZWv0

This happened in China, of course.