CLF Sparring

[Jeong]

Hey CLF peoples - I've been wondering lately about the way other CLF schools work sparring. There are two points I'd like to address:

1 - Do you actually use CLF when you are sparring? It seems like more and more people I see sparring nowadays are using less and less CLF. Do you practice sparring with CLF techniques, or do you stick to just kickboxing?

2 - What types of sparring do you work? Do you do light contact, or practice San Shou too? What about multiple opponents & weapons sparring? What about Qin Na & ground work sparring? If you do practice more than one of these, which do you focus on most?

I don't really have any agenda to get across, I just want to know how other people are going about their sparring training & share and training methods we find valuable. I guess there is no reason to restrict this just to CLF, but it's what I have a vested interest in.

[Ben Gash]

My CLF guys wear grilled headguard, 4oz MMA gloves, shin instep pads. Contact level is friendly but not soft, and increases with experience. Obviously Tsop Chui gets used a lot, then Sow Chui and Jong as the next most common. You know, people always go on about the swings, but Tsop Chui and Jong are by far the most common punches in the forms. Clinching, locking, throwing and submissions are allowed and encouraged. My guys are all fairly junior, so I don't know how things progress.
I have a separate San Shou group.

[Jeong]

Cool, do you guys work mostly one-on-one then, or multiple attackers too?

[hskwarrior]

with my students they like to spar at 50%.......keep it not too lite not too heavy.

Ben is right about typically what gets worked the most is sow choys, uppercuts, and chop Choys. They are the most natural to work with.

now, we typically sparr without gloves up to about the 50% mark......if we go heavier then we gear up. i tend to train them more on the San Shou side of things, but we train to fight on the streets as opposed to the ring. My students go clubbin all the time, and almost always get into some type of scrap.

I have them spar one on one, but then i have them spar 3 plus partners. Then another fun drill is placing your hands behind you back since you can't use your hands. you can use your torso to bump or even defend, but typically i encourage them to use nothing but their legs whether its to attack, defend, evade or what ever. they find that drill the funnest one of all. Ill even have the one with his hands behind his back spar two to three people using no hands-all legs.

[Jeong]

Yeah, I totally hear you guys, chop, sow & jong are very effective techniques. I also am a big fan of the trap-gwa that we do - excellent counter to any sort of linear technique.

I like that legs-only drill, I haven't heard of that before, sounds challenging!

At our school we start with San Shou sparring and move to multiple opponents and weapons sparring later. The emphasis is largely on using CLF techniques, but mostly from the closer range where they're most effective. We use more traditional San Shou until the gap has been closed (except of course Chop and Sow which work pretty well from the distance). We spar at various levels of contact - we start light (25% or so) until the person has proven they have control over their techniques & emotions, then we move to higher levels of contact (up to about 75%). Of course clinching & throwing are an important part of this too. I'm a big fan of multiple opponent sparring too, CLF techniques in their prime element there. For all of this we wear full gear.

We also practice Qin Na sparring, but for this we don't gear up at all. I think the eventual goal is to get to mixing the two together like Ben does, but we focus on doing what CLF is best for (striking) first.

[Sow Choy]

CLF has countlesss techniques and combos for sparring...

the trick is to get the students comfortable actually using them...

With all the swings and angles we use, as well as using one hand to help the other generate power, each technique can be used to attack or defend... The trick is to set up the attacks properly so the opponent dont know whats comin, and to make a defense an offense so that you dominate...

But...

Boxing IMO is definitely a great skill if you are sport fighting, or do not understand how to size someone up or keep someone in check... Its easy to learn/ use and is extremely effective because of its skill in settin up combos and keeping someone in check...

But...

CLF can dominate when punches are fully extended and set up properly.

I recommend taking some CLF combos and drilling them (bags, light sparring) until they are 2nd nature... Then definitely spar people from other styles, schools, etc...

That way you see how well you are doing... Example: This past saturday I was at a friends jujitsu school training and rolling with them... I always look at surprising them with something they dont know... I love jujitsu, great art and very good skills, etc... But its nice to know something your opponent doesnt know, which is as important as knowing what they know too...

While in China at Shaolin especially, many of the students there would ask me about boxing... I actually showed them some basics, and they loved it... Later a friend of mine who is a CLF sanshou champ, went to china to train with them, i believe it was shaolin... And they asked him also about boxing...

My friend said that the majority of fighters he saw, had great kicks and equal with us on the take downs... but horrible hands...

So I guess my point is to make CLF natural in sparring, but to set it up properly... and know the techniques of your opponents... Ex. jujitsu, boxing, thai boxing, wrestling, etc... Cause in the end CLF is just a tool... By understanding some other arts can help your CLF to really dominate...

[Jeong]

Glad to hear that you feel CLF can dominate the ring, but hey that's not anything new right :). So do you all down in FL spend a lot of time cross-training with other schools? I've had some experience with people who've trained in Thai Boxing & Karate-style things, but not too much ground stuff yet, although I do intend to get there eventually.

I'm totally with ya on setting up your techniques is very important. Is there anything you train to specifically work on that, or is it just something that you work towards with lots of practice? We work with feinting drills and distancing stuff to learn how to set up our CLF, which I find quite helpful.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Jeong;789344] - Do you actually use CLF when you are sparring?

I don't encourage sparring until after my students have learned all the basics and combination drills. We start off slowly with half-speed (or less) sensitivity drills which emphasize sticking and flowing with a partner. There is no competition at this stage, just learning how the joints move, how to close gates, how to find the elbow, etc.,. We sometimes follow my teacher's practice of wrapping our sashes over our eyes and doing the exercise blind. At advanced levels we include joint locks and takedowns in this exercise; we also tend to emphasize the sticking less and back off a couple of inches so the students can practice reading his partner without direct touch.

Next comes training in hard contact combination drills. It's very important to aim at a target and actually try to hit it, otherwise it becomes a useless drilling of sloppy technique. We use no padding for this but I've never seen a student injured badly enough to stop training.

After the student is comfortable with combination drills we encourage light sparring without pads. We specify whether this is to be with or without kicking or intentional takedowns.

For those who like harder contact we use some protective equipment. At my old school in Hawaii we just used boxing gloves. I'm now experimenting with some muay thai gloves made by Everlast. My first couple of trials taught me that chop cheui may be just as dangerous as without the gloves.

The interesting thing is that instead of degenerating into the wild and desperate movements of amateur kickboxers, my students' moves look more and more like CLF as the power and contact are increased.

[hskwarrior]

i agree, students shouldn't spar until they have some of the right basics. Its much easier for someone who already has a MA background to learn a new system, but when you get MA virgins you have to teach them how to strike properly, proper bodymechanics and such. once they get the hang of that stuff, then i start them light sparring to get them used to moving and facing off with some one. its at this point where i have the most say in how they fight......i make them see how they typically do things compared to Choy Lee Fut

I try to have my guys stay away from the TRADITIONAL look of gung fu, but to stay away from kick boxing like stuff as well. I encourage them to find their own fighting "STYLE" and to incorporate what they like from our system into it.

they really like the no hands all legs sparring sessions. one of my senior students asked to spar two of the newbies at the same time this way, and it was nice seeing him repetitively dropping this guys one after another.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;790084]
I try to have my guys stay away from the TRADITIONAL look of gung fu, but to stay away from kick boxing like stuff as well. I encourage them to find their own fighting "STYLE" and to incorporate what they like from our system into it.

Good point. Many of the techniques in the sets look the way they do because they are designed for holding your opponent's limb and twisting with the assisting hand while you apply the strike. If you have not grabbed him there may be better places for that arm to be.

[Jeong]

Yeah, I totally agree, the CLF should look different in application than in form. But even if the negative hand is applied different, the techniques of CLF are CLF regardless. More than just techniques the flow of the energy is very different than standard kickboxing, and therein lies the real different *I* think.

We do the same, nobody spars until they have a firm grip of the fundamentals. This gives us tools to build with and ensures we don't have to start from square one.

hskwarrior - I like what you said about having each student develop either own style, I totally agree. As important as that though, I think it's important to incorporate the style of CLF into the sparring as well. We work developing the ferocity of using CLF - the nonstop barrage of techniques and chasing the opponent down as they retreat. Each fighter should have a unique feel, but totally still be CLF, at least that's my two cents :)

How much clinching/throwing work do you guys do? For us CLF playas the striking & kicking comes pretty naturally, but the throwing & clinching is one step harder. At least during our San Shou-type practices we spend a lot of time building skills in that area (at least initially).

[jdhowland]

How much clinching/throwing work do you guys do? For us CLF playas the striking & kicking comes pretty naturally, but the throwing & clinching is one step harder. At least during our San Shou-type practices we spend a lot of time building skills in that area (at least initially).[/QUOTE]


We emphasize attacking with the trunk of the body in every class so the students are used to getting close and friendly. There is no such thing as too close in CLF. Pun, da, paau, and biu jong work beautifully at close contact range. Much of our footwork only makes sense when both antagonists occupy the same spot of turf.

[hskwarrior]

Thanks JEONG, um, the way I see it, is a student doesn't or shouldn't become CLF, CLF becomes you. We all know everyone fights differently. So as teachers, we have to pay attention to each individual we teach and bring out the best fighters they can be......

you have to figure out what range a student likes to fight from, or even have them DISCOVER it themselves if they didn't already know.

Clinching, truthfully, i don't see too much clinching where i'm from. a fight is over quickly, usually with a few blows being thrown, someone getting dipped, then some ground and pound. and as CLF people, we should let someone get us in a position for a clinch.......at least in my opinion.

but there is always room for body slams and such........

[Jeong]

HskWarrior - That's a nice observation, and I'd agree with it. To me it looks like there are actually two stages: the first stage the student has to learn to adhere to CLF so as to get used to the techniques in combat. Hopefully this stage is directed by a good teacher who can realize what makes sense for the student and what doesn't. The techinques might still feel somewhat foriegn, and aren't understood fully. With practice the student comes to the second stage where CLF becomes the student. They have come to understand the techniques and principles of CLF and can use them in a way that is natural and effective for them.

[Sow Choy]

Jeong,

Lately I and and few others at my school have been cross training with other people from other schools... mainly jujitsu and some MMA/ Wrestlers, all of top quality... REason being is MMA can not be ignored and IMO is wehre we belong... San Shou doesnt seem to be goin anywhere... So we have had a few students go in the cage and we hope to send more...

To me, CLF has endless combos, closing the gap, reopening the gap, on diff angles, counters and fakes, some nice takedowns, some nice ways to stop takedowns and some really good ways to go into a takedown or submission...

But frankly on the ground is now where we are taking CLF... Instead of using our stance as a base, we are using our knees, hips, feet and applying CLF alongside other groundskills...

But to me CLF is great because it is so unorthodox... And crosstraining forces you to bring that CLF out...

I look at the fights in 3 diff areas these days, standing, clinching-takedowns or defense against take downs and of course groundfighting...

So regardless, its nice to get fresh perspectives, spar with others here and there... as well as develop CLF more and more...

: )

[stout]

Was CLF ever designed for the ground? As far as I know, the emphasis is to take your opponent out before it ever has to go to ground. So what would be a ground fight CLF technique?

I think MMA folks who can ground fight might have better advantage, as they are determined and are willing to take a beating, to take you to the ground. It seem to take alot of skill to stay off the ground. Do you think in a MMA comp it's difficult not to get pulled to the ground, as the rules does not permit you to go all out and hit soft spots. The Cung le vs Tony Frylund MMA fight is only one I have seen, where the fight stayed off the ground.

[Ben Gash]

Hitting soft spots is not really that effective in fights against trained, conditioned fighters. They're pretty good at protecting their soft spots. There are issues about the gloves, but the safety advantages are obvious.
Ask yourself this: Who's more likely to win? Someone who's excellent standing up, middling in the clinch and with no ground skills (your average Kung Fu guy) or someone who's excellent on the ground, good in the clinch with middling standup (your average MMA fighter)? If you are weak in one range ultimately you'll be weak in all, because an opponent who's got all the ranges covered can exploit that weakness to counter the rest of your game.
Sow Choy explained what he meant, they do groundwork and apply CLF principles to it.
I think San Shou's future lies in Pro Sanda. I think the IWuF format is pretty lame and fairly boring to watch. Take away the body protectors and the shin pads and you've got a much more meaningful competition, and no fighter really likes headguards. However, as with Sow Choy I have to think that the future for my San Shou guys may well have to be in MMA. There's only 2 major San Shou events a year here, and they're nationals. There's only one real second tier event in the country. This makes it difficult for my students to gain the necessary experience before they do nationals, and makes it virtually impossible to get them to the level they'd need to be at for internationals. I'm hoping to put some guys in for some WKA low kick fights next year, and maybe move them up to amateur Thai, but they're only using half their skillset.
Compared to San Shou, one amateur MMA group such as Grapple n Strike can have as many as 6 events a year! All my student's skills can be utilised, I just need to add in a ground element to their training. Ironically I thinik the only way they can succeed as San Shou fighters in England is by doing MMA :rolleyes:

[Sow Choy]

Ben,

I hear you on San Shou, not much around here either... And if there is, how much to enter? How much to fly there? How much for the hotel? Kind of crazy to pay all that money to have someone try to kick your head off your shoulders no? Haha!

Plus as a full-time teacher, I understand the importance of promoting Tournaments and competition, but hell my students can barely afford their tuition and we are probably one of the cheapest in town...

Stout...

CLF has some pretty decent chin na, more practical... But definitely no groundwork, at least from my experience... but who knows...maybe they will find a secret scroll soon saying we actually have a ground form... Haha!

I am doing what I believe many in the past have done, maybe even what some of the old school kung fu people did, which is find people who are good at fighting and who enjoy exchange... I have a buddy from my high school days who has been into Brazilian Jujitsu for 10 years or so... He is pretty awesome... And he has brought many people over from his school as well as others we have met at cage fights...

Also some friends in Ft Meyers who are great at Wrestling, Thai Boxing and ground and pound come around too to train and share... But again, whenever possible we look at the similarities in our arts and how to blend or be unorthodox... Basically How to WIN... Rather than care if its Chinese or whatever...

But in the end I think traditional martial arts have much more of a famliy mentality than some MMA... So who knows how long the fad will last... I am just happy to have been able to be a student again and really see how much of a beginner I truly am...

The whole debate on which is better striking or grappling is a waste of time... It depends on who is better and lucky... If you havent tried ground, I suggest giving it shot... I was amazed how fast I was submitted... Now I am much more comfortable on the ground, but still along way from where I wanna be...

I guess my point still is to think about the fight and what you can use... Rather than the style... But as a striking style I believe CLF has all the tools, just make sure to try diff stradegies and pay close attention to the people who are actually sucessfull in fighting...

Peace : )

Joe

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=stout;790844]Was CLF ever designed for the ground? As far as I know, the emphasis is to take your opponent out before it ever has to go to ground. So what would be a ground fight CLF technique?

My teacher is the nephew of Tse Wing Bun, a famous Hong Kong CLF master known to teach groundfighting. I have an old magazine article about his ground kam na techniques. The pictures show takedowns and counterstrikes after falling or tumbling but no mounting or hand grappling. Wing Bun was also a teacher of Eagle Claw and I suspect that Fan Tzu, rather than CLF was the source of these techniques.

I don't believe CLF has jujitsu-type ground submission training built into the system. What it does have is strategic tumbling and lock-throw-pin techniques designed to keep the operator on his feet, no matter how low the body, e.g. gwai mah and fuk fuh positions.

[Eddie]

San Shou doesnt seem to be goin anywhere... So we have had a few students go in the cage and we hope to send more...


I’d hate to disagree with you sir, you know that, but I think theres a pretty good future for san da (san shou whatever you wanna call it).

As a sport, its far more spectator friendly than most MMA, mostly because of the stand up fighting.

I’ve seen what the IWuF is doing with san shou, and I like the way it seems to be going.
There will always be a place for stand up arts such as thaiboxing and san shou to compete. Down here people seem to really enjoy that type of thing, and our san shou classes are often bigger than our ‘traditional’ classes.

But having said all that, Im not dismissing the importance of MMA and ground fighting. If anything, I think its probably one of the more important skills to develop. I also think your location and surrounding culture has allot of influence with this. For eg, down here, we weren’t so big on wrestling when we grew up (in apose to places like say America). Less emphasis was put on it back in the day, but it seems to have made it through eventually.

I enjoy san shou, and think CLF works extremely well in accordance to the IWuF san shou rules and point system. Other styles do too.

[stout]

Ground fighting is really more for sports though. In a real fight, would anyone want to fight on the ground as choice? Unless you are fighting for your life? I would love to see a CLF fighter in a MMA event, those gloves must be better for technique.

As for san da, for those who fights "peen sun" or side body, do you find that your are more prone to be thrown by someone whos good at thowing?

[Ben Gash]

Unless you are fighting for your life?

Why else would you be fighting?