Five Elements

[Lucas]

Hello, I am new to internal training and am doing research to further my studies.

My sifu often talks of 'Yi' or intetions/mindfulness.

He has said this is one of the five elements i believe.

now when i do look up 5 elements on the internet, there are so many sources and variations to look at.

i find this diagram:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/FiveElementsCycleBalanceImbalance.jpg

Some background:

I am learning Chen Taiji. My sifu also teachis I-Chuan. I have been told his I-Chuan is incorporated into the rest of his martial teachings.

is this diagram or others like it, kind of what I am looking for in regards to these 5 elements and martial arts?

if so, what section of this chart corresponds to 'Yi'

Sorry for so many questions.

I am not sure if i am on the right track here, or if that chart is even what i am looking for.

any help would be much appreciated, if at least a finger in the right direction.

my sifu:

http://i-chuan.net/

[chud]

The five elements are shown in that diagram and relate to each of the five fists (Splitting, Crushing, Drilling, Pounding, Crossing) of Xingyi (and Yichuan, I guess...not too familiar with Yichuan though). In addition to 'five elements', you might also want to google for 'creation cycle' and 'destruction cycle' to begin to see how they interact.

Good luck with your training, looks like you've got a good thing there.

[Lucas]

thank you chud.

in regards to 'yi' being the intention, can you tell me what physical element or fist element this corresponds to?

also, what are the other 4 elements on the same plane as 'yi'

such as, if 'yi' corresponds with 'fire or exploding' (im not saying it does, just hypothetical, im likely wrong)

what corresponds with earth, wood, water, metal?

sorry to be so bothersome. i am having problem finding this particular aspect.

all charts i find have just the physical elements and i cannot find a corresponding 'yi' on a chart.

[SaintSage]

thank you chud.

in regards to 'yi' being the intention, can you tell me what physical element or fist element this corresponds to?

also, what are the other 4 elements on the same plane as 'yi'

such as, if 'yi' corresponds with 'fire or exploding' (im not saying it does, just hypothetical, im likely wrong)

what corresponds with earth, wood, water, metal?

sorry to be so bothersome. i am having problem finding this particular aspect.

all charts i find have just the physical elements and i cannot find a corresponding 'yi' on a chart.

From a martial point of view, Yi would not be one of the fists, but what guides the fist. It is the intention (Yi) that takes a form (One of the Elements.) The element is a result of the yi.

Hope that helps.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, the more accurate term is five phases (water, fire, wood, metal, and earth). Five elements (Earth, water, wind/air, fire, and space/aether) as a term is western (Greek) in origin.

The diagram from the link is not "kosher", but otherwise conveyed some basic concepts.

Not sure about Yiquan but in Xingyi

five phases and pugilistic functions:

water - north - bottom - kidneys - jing - zhuanquan (drilling fist)
fire - south - top - heart - shen - Paoquan (pounding fist)
wood - east - left - liver - Yun - Bengquan (crushing fist)
metal - west - right - lungs - Po - Piquan (splitting fist)
earth - center - center - spleen - Yi (intention) - Hengquan (crossing fist)

Xin (conciousness) and Yi (intention) are importent component in Kung Fu.

Hope this helps.

Mantis108

[Lucas]

From a martial point of view, Yi would not be one of the fists, but what guides the fist. It is the intention (Yi) that takes a form (One of the Elements.) The element is a result of the yi.

Hope that helps.

that does help, and makes some sense to me. to an extent anyway at this point.

thank you

[Lucas]

First and foremost, the more accurate term is five phases (water, fire, wood, metal, and earth). Five elements (Earth, water, wind/air, fire, and space/aether) as a term is western (Greek) in origin.

The diagram from the link is not "kosher", but otherwise conveyed some basic concepts.

Not sure about Yiquan but in Xingyi

five phases and pugilistic functions:

water - north - bottom - kidneys - jing - zhuanquan (drilling fist)
fire - south - top - heart - shen - Paoquan (pounding fist)
wood - east - left - liver - Yun - Bengquan (crushing fist)
metal - west - right - lungs - Po - Piquan (splitting fist)
earth - center - center - spleen - Yi (intention) - Hengquan (crossing fist)

Xin (conciousness) and Yi (intention) are importent component in Kung Fu.

Hope this helps.

Mantis108


Thank you very much for the break down. Just what i was looking for.

as to xin and yi. then does xin correspond as does yi in the matrix shown above?

or is xin and yi basically inseperable and part of a whole?

i may be complicating this too much. ah dont you love beginning new things :D

I decided in the past i would leave this study alone until the terms came up from someone teaching me. that has started to happen so i figure i best be prepared.

now for me to look into this further. i suppose i will have to ask if this is the same as the principles in i-chuan.

hmmm didnt ray pina study some i-chuan.....


please feel free at any point in time to point out my ignorances :)

[mantis108]

yi -intention Earth resides in the Spleen/pancreas system

Po- corporeal soul, the physical body's electrical system, minus the heavenly soul. The reptilian brain. Resides in the Lungs, relates to metal

Zhi- Willpower resides in the kidneys, relates to water

Hun- Ethereal soul, altruism, resides in the Liver, relates to wood

Xin- Spirit, resides in the heart, relates to fire.

Nice one. I have it slightly different though.

Kidneys house Jing (Congenital vitality)

Heart houses Shen (Autonomic faculities)

Liver houses Hun (Ethereal essence)

Lungs house Po (Corporeal essence)

Spleen houses Yi (Intention)

One of the functions of the five "Yin" organs is to house or act as sheaths to the subtle "bodies" (ie jing).

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lucas]

xin = shen

zhi = jing

??

is this dialectic?

again thank you all so much, this is going to help me a lot.

THIS is the reason i love KFM.com :D

[mantis108]

Hi Lucas,

You are most welcome. I believe we need to bear in mind that there are more than one discipline that make use of the 5 phases.

1) Daoism (internal alchemist schools in particular)
2) Medicine
3) Martial Arts
4) Fengshui
5) Divinations

These disciplines are somewhat related studies but many people today focus only in one field. The list I gave is from the Daoist perspective; whereas, I believe Andy's list is more of a Chinese Medicine point of view.

Xin literally translated as heart (object) or mind (function).
Zhi is determination.
Jing literally means essence, sperm, vitality, etc. this certainly will give rise to determination.

Also intention isn't a mental state only per se. Yi and Qi should be considered as a "continuum". The internal 3 harmonies chain looks something like this in TCMA

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention) <=> Qi (energy/life force) <=> Li (strength/power/force)

Yi and Qi is where the rubbers hit the road so to speak. When Li is expressed as Xing (phases/forms/motions) through the input of Yi, we then have Xing Yi or Xin Yi.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lucas]

Thank you again. very helpful.

the Xing Yi explination helped me to see a bit more of the relationships involved.

still quite a lot that goes over my head. slow and steady i suppose.

i believe my sifu is generally speaking from a martial standpoint.

would any of you happen to have any articles you may have written regarding the five elements in relation to martial application and principle?

or perhaps a link or two.

sorry im asking so much. my sifu does not often use chinese terms when teaching, rather tries to explain things to us in western terms and concepts we can relate to. though i would still like to delve a bit deeper into the traditional and cultural aspects that give foundation to much of what im learning.

he has many articles he has written, unfortunately none regard the traditional aspect of these 5 elements and their relation to martial arts training.

again, thank you very much and tell me to shut up and go away at any point in time.

[Doc Stier]

Perhaps the following charts will be helpful in relation to the Five Element Phases:

http://www.jjequine.com/images/Elements_chart.jpg

http://www.alternative-concepts.com/images/5EleChart.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/FiveElementsDiurnalCycle.jpg

Doc

[scholar]

For practical purposes, in the style I train the 5 elements are expressed as directions to carry the 8 trigrams in.

Forward
Backward
Left
Right
Centre

Also, 3 steps forward in the time it takes the opponent to take 2 steps back. This is especially handy in fencing, so that the opponent will not escape your weapon.