Underhooks & "He who is above wins"

[couch]

I'm scared to ask this question, however at risk of starting another bash-fest:

I have always been taught that "on top is heavy, inside is fast" or "he who is on top wins"

so...

how does this break down with the double underhooks? Is it because the opponent is past my elbows? Does this theory (which is practical in a Chi Sau application) break down or can it be adapted to this?

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

PS Now I'll sit back and watch the show!

[anerlich]

I have always been taught that "on top is heavy, inside is fast" or "he who is on top wins"

I don't think this rule, like many others, applies to all situations. Maybe in a situation which is striking only with no clinching or leg attacks allowed. And probably not always inside if you can angle off on the other person, with striking, arm drags or 2 on 1.

Still, inside control is regarded as superior in wrestling, and I've always been taught that the underhook is the single best defense against leg attacks and body locks. That and sprawls.

[Edmund]

Double underhooking helps prevent the opponent from changing levels and grabbing either of your legs. It's not much use for hitting someone in the head.

When we do want to hit someone in the head, it's good to have an arm free, not both stuck underneath their armpits. BUT if you can get one underhook really deep so that your shoulder is in their armpit you can hook or elbow around from underneath their arm and hit them in the back or side of the head.

[YungChun]

Some interesting non WCK variations..

uchi-mata
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EdTVTObWeGs

seoi-nagi
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y7lcKUS9a44

kimura
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U2FajIE2gHI

ouchi-gari
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jFAFKQThj9U

osoto-gari
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P2I1rG0LOo4

[Nick Forrer]

I would start by making a distinction between double underhooks and a body lock.

When you pummel in for a single underhook the elbow is down and you grab the back of the shoulder - not the waist (common mistake). Amongst other things this stops him from repummelling. You can then 'open' the elbow to control his body (i.e. lift him up onto his toes - e.g. for a duck under or knee block takedown) or pull down on his shoulder to bring him down and to then wheel him around. Its a dynamic control position - combining push pull and circling and there are many things you can work off it. Having your head in the well of his neck on the side of the underhook helps too, as well as a neck or bicep tie with the other hand.

When you get double underhooks, you can keep that position or go for a body lock (best option IMO). With the bodylock the hands dont hold the shoulders but hug low on the waist (just above the buttocks), they grab together and you pinch the elbows in tight. It should be very uncomfortable when done right. Then either squat and lift him up or drive forward or trip to takedown or turn corner and go to back.

For the man on top he can neutralise double underhooks, firstly by 'basing' out (i.e. moving hips back - palms on his hips helps to make space too), then going for ****zer (tight overhook) or shelf (like a lan sau prying up under his jaw) or cross face (pushing the head across/back) or limping arm round and repummelling.

So to answer your question in short your theory about weight vs speed doesn't apply to the clinch- or its so general as to have no real value. Also, unless he has x training a wc guy is not a good source of information about wrestling - although he may have worked out/understood intuitively some general principles a priori they (the principles) will break down in a fight unless supported by proper experience and training (gap between theory and reality rears its head once again).

[Knifefighter]

While double underhooks can be countered and defeated, the person who has them definitely has the advantage offensively. The reason for this is because double unders take away much of the ability of the opponent to use his arms effectively. They also give the opponent who is using them a leverage advantage over his opponent and provide many options for movement and control.

[stricker]

good post nick.

i've got an interesting experiment\question that might throw up some ideas...

a common counter to an underhook is to wrap the arm up (overhook\wizzer).

if you take a deep dominant underhook as one reference point, and then a deep dominant wizzer as the other reference point, there is a continuum between those two extremes... when and why does one become dominant over the other?

[Wayfaring]

Is it because the opponent is past my elbows?
Yes. It's a closer range.

[wingchun187]

I'm scared to ask this question, however at risk of starting another bash-fest:

I have always been taught that "on top is heavy, inside is fast" or "he who is on top wins"

so...

how does this break down with the double underhooks? Is it because the opponent is past my elbows? Does this theory (which is practical in a Chi Sau application) break down or can it be adapted to this?

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

PS Now I'll sit back and watch the show!


i think your thinking to hard

[couch]

i think your thinking to hard

Apparently not.

The boys have made some really good arguments and given me lots to muse over.

[Edmund]

good post nick.

i've got an interesting experiment\question that might throw up some ideas...

a common counter to an underhook is to wrap the arm up (overhook\wizzer).

if you take a deep dominant underhook as one reference point, and then a deep dominant wizzer as the other reference point, there is a continuum between those two extremes... when and why does one become dominant over the other?

It's whoever can control the opponent. The other arm is important as well. You can very seldom take someone down with one hand.

[Merryprankster]

Knifefighter basically hit the nail on the head.

The way that I've always thought about it is this: Isolation.

By getting solid double underhooks, you are in essence, isolating his arms from the rest of his body. I don't really buy that it's about being past the elbows, exactly, but that you are isolating his limbs, preventing him from moving as a single unit. That's a problem.

The isolation prevents him from using his limbs to defend or attack. It means that you have ready access to manipulate his center of gravity.

Kind of a big deal.

[couch]

I don't really buy that it's about being past the elbows, exactly, but that you are isolating his limbs, preventing him from moving as a single unit. That's a problem.



The elbow question is a typical one from a Wing Chun guy (me)!

We love our elbows. At least I do. :)