4 sects and 10 boxing styles - historical or not?

[ghostexorcist]

I previously tried this post on the China History Forum, but no one could shine too much light on the subject. They either didn't know or they danced around the question and never answered it. Anyway, I read the following on a martial arts webpage:


In the Song Dynasty, traditional Chinese martial arts were divided into 4 great sects : Chi , Bo , Chuan, Wen and 10 great boxing styles : Hong, Liou, Zhi, Ming, Mo, Tan, Zha, Pao, Hua and Long. Chuojiao is often referred to as belonging to that of the Wen Sect and of the Zhi boxing style, therefore often referred to as Wenjiaquan or Jiu Zhizi.

Is this true? I have heard that Wen family boxing is considered by some noted martial artists to be the parent style of Chuo jiao, but never in a grouping such as this. Where these four sects and ten fists real stuff? If so, what were the characteristics of each sect and fist style? Has it ever been described in fictional stories by famous wuxia authors?

[mantis108]

I previously tried this post on the China History Forum, but no one could shine too much light on the subject. They either didn't know or they danced around the question and never answered it. Anyway, I read the following on a martial arts webpage:



Is this true? I have heard that Wen family boxing is considered by some noted martial artists to be the parent style of Chuo jiao, but never in a grouping such as this. Where these four sects and ten fists real stuff? If so, what were the characteristics of each sect and fist style? Has it ever been described in fictional stories by famous wuxia authors?

Well, It would be better to have the Chinese characters. I think Chinese mainland website stuff is not always credible. So Caveat Emptor.

Regards

Mantis108

[ghostexorcist]

Well, It would be better to have the Chinese characters. I think Chinese mainland website stuff is not always credible. So Caveat Emptor.

Regards

Mantis108

Unfortunately, I do not know the corresponding Chinese characters for the sects and styles. One user on the China History Forum speculated that the "Hua" fist could be ...


Fa Kyun or 'Flower Fist' styles of the southern circles.

I found the original passage about the sect and styles from this American webpage (http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html). The site is ran by fellow Kung Fu Magazine forum member “Shaolin Master (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?u=7233)”, but I'm afraid that I accidentally offended them in a previous post and they will not reply to any of my many emails. I've sent countless messages to their member inbox and to the site's contact address and not even a "f*ck you!" in return (which I think is extremely rude). He claims the info ...


is a summary from the combination of verbal, chuojiao articles and texts in chinese. (source (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=712542&postcount=9))

I would just like to know the source of the titular subject. I have a feeling it is of the "verbal" variety. Even so, I would like to know what the characteristics are of each.

[taaigihk]

Well, this is supported by our line. :)

If you want a source, than -apart from I've heard from Hong Zhitian himself- there's a book "Wu Binlou Chuojiaofanzi quanshu" by Zhang Dawei, Hong Zhitian, and Zhong Haiming where this is stated.

[ghostexorcist]

Well, this is supported by our line. :)

If you want a source, than -apart from I've heard from Hong Zhitian himself- there's a book "Wu Binlou Chuojiaofanzi quanshu" by Zhang Dawei, Hong Zhitian, and Zhong Haiming where this is stated.

Thanks. Do you know the characteristics of each style and sect? What is the ISBN for the book? I'm just wondering, does the book happen to mention Zhou Tong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28archer%29) (周侗) at all? I know the connection between Yue Fei's military arts tutor and Chuo Jiao is only legendary, but I've been told by other people that his name appears in certain Chuo Jiao books.

[taaigihk]

Do you know the characteristics of each style and sect?No, I don't (apart from Zhi ;)).



What is the ISBN for the book?

http://www.bookschina.com/1177357.htm


I'm just wondering, does the book happen to mention Zhou Tong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28archer%29) (周侗) at all? I know the connection between Yue Fei's military arts tutor and Chuo Jiao is only legendary, but I've been told by other people that his name appears in certain Chuo Jiao books.

Yes. Deng Liang--Zhou Tong--Yue Fei. :)

[mantis108]

Ok from the Chinese attachment:

Hong (洪), Liu (留), Zhi (枝), Ming (捋 - le), Mo (磨), Tan ( 彈) , Zha ( 查 - Cha), Pao (炮), Hua (花 )and Long ( 龍).

So only the 4 sects' charaters are missing.

Mantis108

[ghostexorcist]

Hong (洪), Liu (留), Zhi (枝), Ming (捋 - le), Mo (磨), Tan ( 彈) , Zha ( 查 - Cha), Pao (炮), Hua (花 )and Long ( 龍). Mantis108

I wonder if the authors are still alive. I would be interested in contacting them to see if they know characteristics of each style. I know Wu Binlou passed away some time ago.

So Chuo Jiao is apart of Wen family boxing, which is apart of Zhi boxing. Is Zhi more of a leg oriented art like its descendant?

[Sal Canzonieri]

That ISBN is to the book that I told you about before. I had that history info in it.

This is NOT the same as Wen Family (Jia) boxing, as in the Wen surname related people. That is a different style, much different than Wen "family" Chuo Jiao (Jia in this case is meaning GROUP, not surname.

This Wen means Scholarly style and the other half of it is the Military style, Wu, two halves of one big style. There are just names for groupings of sets, Wu was done by the military and Wen by the nobility.
They are both modifications of the same things, an early form of Chuo Jiao.

Also, (a quote from Mantis 108) "traditional Bashanfan, also known as Wen Tang Fanzi (Civil Route) . . . Chuo jiao is sometimes known as Wu Tang Fanzi (Martial Route) which has Ditang (ground skill) as well."

Also, Jiu Zhizi aludes to an ancient soccer like ball game, hence where the weird kicking comes from originally. (by the way, in Italy exists a martial art composed all of soccer movements, I was shown this by an uncle who was a pro player in the 1950s, he used it for self defense, showed my how it was done. Now that I saw Chuo Jiao years later, it all made sense, both styles were very similar not because they were related (impossible) but because the human body can only do certain things, so there was a convergence.

It is called Gu Zhizi (Ancient Zhizi- Ancient Chuojiao) and was passed to the Yin family in Suning County which kept it for centuries. The style shares theory very similar to Xinyi/Xingyi. Li Fuzhen, famous disciple of Che Yizhai, was so impressed by the system that he incorporated its elements into Che Style Xingyiquan and created Mandarin Ducks Kicks routine. This is apparently the first video material about this rare branch ever made public. VIDEOs of the more ancient version of this Chuo Jiao: Gu Zhizi (video 2 of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMxTKAnMZ4A

Look at these links to get more insight:

http://www.cmaod.com/Fanzi2.html
(shows VCDs of both Wen and Wu sets

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/diguoyong.html

Previous thread here:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:z7Ue5a4MJgEJ:forum.kungfumagazine.c om/forum/archive/index.php/t-5794.html+Wen+Chuo+Jiao&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

[ghostexorcist]

That ISBN is to the book that I told you about before. I had that history info in it.
You originally gave me the isbn's for two books:

1. Jiuzhuan Lianhuan Yuanyangtui (ISBN 978-7-5009-1096-1)

- I looked it up on the Chinese net and here are the corresponding characters for anyone that would like to know, (九转连环鸳鸯腿)

2. The aforementioned book.

I contacted Plum pub and they had the first, but not the second one. I can't read fluent Chinese, so it wouldn't have helped me to purchase the book even if they did have it. When taaigihk said they saw the info in a book, I commented in post #5 (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=790524&postcount=5) that I had previously been told about similar info by a certain person. The "certain person" was you. However, you never added the "Wu Binlou" to the second book title, so I didn't recognize it at first.

I received an email from the folks at Plum pub a couple of weeks ago that the 2nd book was back in stock. They provided a link to the book's cover and description. When taaigihk provided the link to his book, I finally realized the one you suggested was the very same book. I am currently waiting for taaigihk to translate the brief passages for me. Now the fog has lifted and I can clearly see.

The reason I said "Wen Family boxing" and not "Wen family Chuo Jiao" is because of Jarek's interview with one of his xingyi buddies. By the way, I noticed that you read the new Ji Longfeng research material (http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1187475183) . That's neat stuff, but its off topic. Anyway, thanks for the info.

[taaigihk]

So only the 4 sects' charaters are missing.

Mantis108

赤, 伯, 蠢, 温.

[taaigihk]

(by the way, in Italy exists a martial art composed all of soccer movements, I was shown this by an uncle who was a pro player in the 1950s, he used it for self defense, showed my how it was done. Now that I saw Chuo Jiao years later, it all made sense, both styles were very similar not because they were related (impossible) but because the human body can only do certain things, so there was a convergence.


Now that's interesting. Could you tell more?

[ghostexorcist]

Also, Jiu Zhizi aludes to an ancient soccer like ball game, hence where the weird kicking comes from originally.

Wikipedia has an article on this game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuju), which FIFA considers to be the father of modern soccer.

[mantis108]

Ok

赤 (Chi), 伯(Bo), 蠢 (Chuan), 温(Wen),

蠢 should be pronounced as chun. Also it means dumb or stupid. So ... I don't get it. Only Wen is a family name.

Thanks

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Now that's interesting. Could you tell more?

Not much to tell, it's kicking movements and so on based on what you do always in Soccer on the field and in training.

One of the kicks was a cool side flick with a leg which kicks the other person's backside.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wikipedia has an article on this game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuju), which FIFA considers to be the father of modern soccer.

I think there is another game called Jiu Zhizi too?

[taaigihk]

Not much to tell, it's kicking movements and so on based on what you do always in Soccer on the field and in training.

One of the kicks was a cool side flick with a leg which kicks the other person's backside.

Sounds cool. :)

Thanks.

[ghostexorcist]

I think there is another game called Jiu Zhizi too?

I can only find info on Cuju. Although not sourced, this page has some good info:

http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/English/e2006/e200604/4p60.htm

If you present the Chinese characters for the name, maybe some Chinese info can be found to corroborate Jiu Zhizi.

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

蹶子脚 (Juezijiao): A technique of Chuojiao should not be confused with Jiu Zhizi. 九枝子.
Although the sport did flourish during times of Song Dynasty, upon which Chuojiao was developed (in legend), but there is a lot more in Chuojiao nowadays than the simple techniques of Cuju.

ghostexorcist,

1. The site http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html is not American (it may be hosted there in some server but it is from Asia - China, Aus, Singapore).....
2. I may have missed your mails, I have been relocating countries and tend travel a lot so you may have sent to dead email or something....oh and I rarely am angered so do not jump the gun with assumptions........I will have a look. ....

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[ghostexorcist]

Sal,

蹶子脚 (Juezijiao): A technique of Chuojiao should not be confused with Jiu Zhizi. 九枝子.
Although the sport did flourish during times of Song Dynasty, upon which Chuojiao was developed (in legend), but there is a lot more in Chuojiao nowadays than the simple techniques of Cuju.

ghostexorcist,

1. The site http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html is not American (it may be hosted there in some server but it is from Asia - China, Aus, Singapore).....
2. I may have missed your mails, I have been relocating countries and tend travel a lot so you may have sent to dead email or something....oh and I rarely am angered so do not jump the gun with assumptions........I will have a look. ....

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

I apologize for my previous statements then. So what are the differences between Cuju and Jiu Zhizi? Perhaps one is a sub-game of the other, like soccer and rugby.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does anyone know anything about this (Got this from VCD on LiuHe Mens style):

LiuHe Men, according to oral history, was an integrated system from the arts of these people:

Yang You Ji,
Wu Zhi Xu,
Yue Fei,
Xue Ren Gui,
Zhao Kuang Yin,
& Yang Yan Zhao.

[Shaolin Master]

Anything is possible (although the dates are dubious and if anything it is popular for arts to group famous individuals as the founders) ...but that is not the thought of our Cangzhou Liuhequan lineage.

[Ben Gash]

Wikipedia has an article on this game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuju), which FIFA considers to be the father of modern soccer.

Which says a lot about FIFA really :rolleyes: Cuju can't be the "father" of modern soccer, as modern soccer is directly descended from medieval European football, which can be accurately traced back to the 1100s, Centuries before european contact with China, and over a century before the Mongol incursions into the middle east. There is no point of contact for the two, and Cuju is a very different game. It may be accurate to say that Cuju is the earliest documented form of football, but it is hardly the "father" of modern soccer.
Even tenuous attempts to find a point of contact don't work, as it could just as easily be argued that Cuju was descended from Phaininda and found it's way from Persia/Pakistan to China after the Alexandrian conquests.

[golden arhat]

Wikipedia has an article on this game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuju), which FIFA considers to be the father of modern soccer.

i doubt this
unless u can find citation


modern football came from the tudor game of football where hundreds of ppl would be divided say between 2 towns with goals at wither end and a pigs bladder blown up for a ball

the goal was to get it to the opposite towns goal

this chinese game may be played similarly to football but there is no way it was taken from china to europe
especially with all our war mongering in europe and the middle east from the middle ages onwards
it is much more likely that we the brits fathered the modern game of football

[ghostexorcist]

i doubt this
unless u can find citation

This was in the wikipedia article:

http://www.fifa.com/womenolympic/destination/hostcountry/index.html

[ghostexorcist]

Cuju can't be the "father" of modern soccer, as modern soccer is directly descended from medieval European football, which can be accurately traced back to the 1100s, Centuries before european contact with China, and over a century before the Mongol incursions into the middle east.

The Chinese were directly and indirectly trading with the Roman empire before the birth of Christ. I don't know when the game was created, but the article says it was popular during the Warring states perod (5th-3rd century BCE), which means it existed before this time. It could have spread west via merchants. However, I am not an expert in cross-cultural exchanges, so I can only speculate based upon the given material.

I'll just stick with FIFA's claims since it is the governing body of football.

[golden arhat]

I'll just stick with FIFA's claims since it is the governing body of football.

NO

SHUT UR HOLE

WE CREATED THE BEST GAME ON EARTH

EVER
thats the long and short of it

i'm sure many ppl have thought about making a game aof kicking a ball

but fifa can go to hell


football is english

end of story

[ghostexorcist]

NO

SHUT UR HOLE

WE CREATED THE BEST GAME ON EARTH

EVER
thats the long and short of it

i'm sure many ppl have thought about making a game aof kicking a ball

but fifa can go to hell


football is english

end of story

SOCCER HOOLIGANS UNITE!

[golden arhat]

SOCCER HOOLIGANS UNITE!

dont call it soccer either

ur only embarrassing urself


psssh americans :p

[Golden Spider]

So much for that interesting discussion...
Was there anymore research, not about football or related derivatives...
Four sects, Ten styles?