myths , legends, and useless rules people create for fighting

[monji112000]

So this is something I have been wondering about for a long time. Why do people make this ___ crap up? I have heard so many things, sometimes their good ideas, but the conclusions are so extreme that they aren't practical. To name a few :
1).shortest distance between two points is a straight line, SO all I need to do is punch in a straight line no matter what the other person does.
2) That technique brakes the none-movable elbow law, so you are not allowed to do it.
3) You must keep your “center” facing the person at all times.
4) Thats not the “insert name” fighting stance, I have never seen that in any of the forms.
5) You can't do that it does not meet the economy of motion law.
ect.. ect..
care to add to the list?

[sihing]

So this is something I have been wondering about for a long time. Why do people make this ___ crap up? I have heard so many things, sometimes their good ideas, but the conclusions are so extreme that they aren't practical. To name a few :
1).shortest distance between two points is a straight line, SO all I need to do is punch in a straight line no matter what the other person does.
2) That technique brakes the none-movable elbow law, so you are not allowed to do it.
3) You must keep your “center” facing the person at all times.
4) Thats not the “insert name” fighting stance, I have never seen that in any of the forms.
5) You can't do that it does not meet the economy of motion law.
ect.. ect..
care to add to the list?

People get stuck in the learning process. They fail to realize that "we" use those principles, not them using us, at the right time and place. The shortest distance between two points "IS" a straight line, but that does not mean the fist travels always directly down our centerlines to achieve that. Using your center to face, is something used at a certain stage of fighting, not at long or medium range, so therefore you use it when needed, not all the time. All of these things are guidelines for training and absorbing something that can help you in a fight. None of it guarantee’s anything, as you still have to apply timing, distancing, and other elements to succeed.

People/Instructors make things up due to a lack of understanding or simply to mislead people in their class, like they have the secret formula to making the attainment of skill in fighting easier than it really is.

James

[monji112000]

People get stuck in the learning process. They fail to realize that "we" use those principles, not them using us, at the right time and place.
I 100% agree.


The shortest distance between two points "IS" a straight line, but that does not mean the fist travels always directly down our centerlines to achieve that.
well it is and it isn't. its application, not a idea. If I were to make to dots a paper the shortest way to travel is a straight line. If I were to pick two cities on the map the shortest way to travel is a curve.
Its basic logic, sometimes its more desirable to use curves and circles. Thats why for example in Wing Chun, sanda, boxing many techniques have curves and circles and straight lines.


Using your center to face, is something used at a certain stage of fighting, not at long or medium range, so therefore you use it when needed, not all the time. why is that? what does keeping your front of your body facing the opponent at all times give you?In order to attack you must turn your body.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If I were to pick two cities on the map the shortest way to travel is a curve.

Reply]
That really depends on Traffic. Sometimes and more often you are better off Zig Zagging around all the traffic jamb ups...of course, maybe it is just as good to just stay home and order a Pizza. :D

[monji112000]

If I were to pick two cities on the map the shortest way to travel is a curve.

Reply]
That really depends on Traffic. Sometimes and more often you are better off Zig Zagging around all the traffic jamb ups...of course, maybe it is just as good to just stay home and order a Pizza. :D

The earth is curved, you must travel a curved "insert method". If allot of traffic exists.. then sure zig zag works best. BUT you must travel a zig zag that is curved. Everything depends on the situation.

[Becca]

So this is something I have been wondering about for a long time. Why do people make this ___ crap up? I have heard so many things, sometimes their good ideas, but the conclusions are so extreme that they aren't practical. To name a few :
1).shortest distance between two points is a straight line, SO all I need to do is punch in a straight line no matter what the other person does.
2) That technique brakes the none-movable elbow law, so you are not allowed to do it.
3) You must keep your “center” facing the person at all times.
4) Thats not the “insert name” fighting stance, I have never seen that in any of the forms.
5) You can't do that it does not meet the economy of motion law.
ect.. ect..
care to add to the list?

They do seem goofy if you take them out of context. Just as beginner's level algebra homework makes no sence taken out of context. So, under what situation were you told these tid-bits? I can think of several instances where all of those things might be said to a newb. You aren't one of those people who thinks they know more than the teacher are you? Or are you one of those who doesn't want to be taught the right way, just given info in the hopes you can make sence of it with no context to reference it to?

[sihing]

I 100% agree.


well it is and it isn't. its application, not a idea. If I were to make to dots a paper the shortest way to travel is a straight line. If I were to pick two cities on the map the shortest way to travel is a curve.
Its basic logic, sometimes its more desirable to use curves and circles. Thats why for example in Wing Chun, sanda, boxing many techniques have curves and circles and straight lines.

why is that? what does keeping your front of your body facing the opponent at all times give you?In order to attack you must turn your body.

The shortest way between two points is a straight line, using a curve is a longer distance, this is just basic geometry, but in relation to a punch for example, if my hand is by my side, and I want to strike with it, I will not bring it to my centerline then hit (this is not a straight line to the target), but hit from where ever my hand is. I agree on the fact that curves and hooks persay are effective as well, and I would never tell any student that they should not learn those techniques. It requires a different engine than what Wing Chun produces but it is a simple action and is definetly useful. For me when I teach people WC, I'm teaching them the strict system, elbows in, facing and using power from the ground. I also tell them that it is just a training system, something that you as the individual control, and not the other way around.

Regarding facing, I have found through my individual experience that it gives me more power, plain and simple. When attacking, you do not necessarily have to turn your body for power, via torgue, but by using pivots and proper facing mechanics you can develop a good solid punch. Also, it makes it hard for your opponent to flank you, or to make you turn sideways. It is easier to take your opponents back if he is already in a side on stance, or with the hips facing slightly sideways. For me, I'd much rather fight front facing my opponent than back facing, as on the street any and all targets are legitimate targets.

Again, there are lots of ways to fight, all have there merits and in the end it comes down to the individual and how hard they are training in their respective arts, how well they understand what they are doing, and what they want out of their training. It helps if they are learning from someone further down the path as well.

James

[monji112000]

You aren't one of those people who thinks they know more than the teacher are you? I was taught to think, and that fighting has no rules. You may at sometimes decide that this situation needs these boundaries.. but rules, laws, and extreme principles are not in my education. That isn't to say I didn't learn about the idea of center, economy of motion, ect... it just means I understand the scope, and the limitation of these ideas.
This isn't a religion, its a method for protecting yourself.

[Becca]

I'm saying, a beginner sometimes needs those rules, and that is when you usually hear them. If you do not feel you are a beginner and your teacher is still spouting them to you, it is time to have a heart-to-heart. You are probably not "displaying" skill that your instructor is looking for. Rarely is an instructor so clueless that they actually expect you to use baby steps in actual sparring. If they do, they usually have a reason. You can assume they are just holding you back. You can ask why. You can assume you know more than they do. At this point, you'd be best leaving. Maybe you do know more. But if that's the case, why are you still there? Just don't make the mistake of assuming you know why your teacher did/does things without taking the time to ask...:)

[sihing]

I'm saying, a beginner sometimes needs those rules, and that is when you usually hear them. If you do not feel you are a beginner and your teacher is still spouting them to you, it is time to have a heart-to-heart. You are probably not "displaying" skill that your instructor is looking for. Rarely is an instructor so clueless that they actually expect you to use baby steps in actual sparring. If they do, they usually have a reason. You can assume they are just holding you back. You can ask why. You can assume you know more than they do. At this point, you'd be best leaving. Maybe you do know more. But if that's the case, why are you still there? Just don't make the mistake of assuming you know why your teacher did/does things without taking the time to ask...:)

Beeca is right, those things on the list are pure basics (control of your own body), and in the end are used when necessary and not as the be all end all of fighting. It is up to the student to work it out and use what they learn when it is time. The instructor is just a guide, someone a bit further down the road than yourself.

James

[monji112000]

If you do not feel you are a beginner and your teacher is still spouting them to you, it is time to have a heart-to-heart. You are probably not "displaying" skill that your instructor is looking for. Rarely is an instructor so clueless that they actually expect you to use baby steps in actual sparring. If they do, they usually have a reason. You can assume they are just holding you back. You can ask why. You can assume you know more than they do. At this point, you'd be best leaving. Maybe you do know more. But if that's the case, why are you still there? Just don't make the mistake of assuming you know why your teacher did/does things without taking the time to ask...:)

I think you are referring to something unrelated to my post. When you take the time to accept a teacher or a Coach you must trust them. You must follow them and learn what they ask of you. Then you must test it and find your own "voice". No relation to the fact that allot of people create or misuse ideas of fighting. sometimes when teaching someone you must set a parameter, yes but creating mythical rules and laws is another thing.

The people I meet that tell me things, I feel often don't have enough experience or believe blindly what someone else says.
I am not saying that I know more or less (probably less).. I am saying No Laws or rules exist. You can't say that in a fight this is the "only" or "best" way. You can't say that this "style" has a law that says you must stand this way. Its complete bunk, and its prevalent in EVERY styles and in all forms of Martial arts even BJJ, MT and a small amount of mma systems.
Another common myth is you can never back up. Complete BS, sometimes its a very smart idea and other times its not a option. You can't say a fight will normally go to the ground or that you will always avoid going to the ground. Extremes are not logical and unrealistic.

[Becca]

I've never had someone say any of those things to me, or in my hearing, unless it was to aid in learning to fight. Or to impove one area of fighting skill that was deficient. I've also never heard anyone other than a rank newb who beleived they were "rules". One of the best ways to tell if someone has the experience they claim to have is how they talk about it. It's not a fool-proof meathod, but it is a good starting point. Perhaps they honestly beleive they have the correct answer. If that is the case, they will likely realize, after talking to those who actually do have the correct info, that they didn't have as much as they thought.

[Lucas]

one myth i hate, and keep in mind, its a double edged sword.



Gouges/soft tissue strikes ~ Too deadly for sport. the whole argument used by many to defend non presence of large scale CMA in MMA matches.

yet at the same time i hate the myth that these techniques are not effective at all.

as brought up regarding previous post in this thread. right time, right place.

sure, against a resisting professional, it can be very difficult to get a move like this off on someone and actually gouge an eye out or rip off an ear, crush a larynx etc...

yet at the same time, you cannot sit there and tell me that if i had a thumb on your eye, with the right positional dominance or a well timed and placed strike, i couldnt pop that sucker out?

so to me here is the line:

extremes.

any time a principle/method/technique is isolated and viewed in the extremem you can have two parties. one for and one against.

as stated before its all situational.

this is one reason why i never disdain any technique that even has a remote possiblity of being helpful. i wont necessarily practice them, but i wont outright deny the possibilities.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A friend of mine can rip apart a phone book, he closes those "capt n crush" things for reps ( the 300# ones I think), he is a TMA of the goju type and carries the "grip jars" with 100lbs in each hand ( yes, he is a big Mofu), he once demonstrates his grip on me while rolling, he grabbed the tendon at the back of the knee and I though he would have ripped it out and it was bruised for a week.
( No it didn't stop me from kicking him with my other leg)
I have no doubts what he woudl do if he grabbed the throat or went for an eye-gouge, then again, he TRAINS them on a special dummy he made.

Yes, he is a sick puppy.

[monji112000]

...yet at the same time, you cannot sit there and tell me that if i had a thumb on your eye, with the right positional dominance or a well timed and placed strike, i couldnt pop that sucker out?

well I don't know about popping it out.. but I am sure it will at least slow the person down.

[sihing]

A friend of mine can rip apart a phone book, he closes those "capt n crush" things for reps ( the 300# ones I think), he is a TMA of the goju type and carries the "grip jars" with 100lbs in each hand ( yes, he is a big Mofu), he once demonstrates his grip on me while rolling, he grabbed the tendon at the back of the knee and I though he would have ripped it out and it was bruised for a week.
( No it didn't stop me from kicking him with my other leg)
I have no doubts what he woudl do if he grabbed the throat or went for an eye-gouge, then again, he TRAINS them on a special dummy he made.

Yes, he is a sick puppy.

Guys like this are freaks of nature, and not the usual. When discussing things on a forum it is impossible to taken into account all the variables because people are individuals with individual attributes (like your friend above). What may work really well against one person, may not against another. The key IMO is to not have a closed mind about things, like this way is the only way. There are a ton of ways to win a fight, most of us practice the things we LIKE to participate in, rather than exclusively what we think is the best, based on our experience.

For me, I am practicing and learning something specific, to gain the skill in VT through the WSL/GL method, and not so concerned how well I will do in a fight, when I haven't even had the opportunity to get into one in over a decade :)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys like this are freaks of nature, and not the usual. When discussing things on a forum it is impossible to taken into account all the variables because people are individuals with individual attributes (like your friend above). What may work really well against one person, may not against another. The key IMO is to not have a closed mind about things, like this way is the only way. There are a ton of ways to win a fight, most of us practice the things we LIKE to participate in, rather than exclusively what we think is the best, based on our experience.

For me, I am practicing and learning something specific, to gain the skill in VT through the WSL/GL method, and not so concerned how well I will do in a fight, when I haven't even had the opportunity to get into one in over a decade :)

James

You do realize that the vast majority of "stories" we have from the past are of "freaks" like him.
Stories of Miyagi driving his fingers through a side of a cow at the butchers.
And the fact is, though he is a bit of a freak in terms of hand power, he has trained it for years, decades and as such, he can make it work.
There is a lesson there that most forget, on both sides of the TMA/MMA/Swedish cooks debate.

[sihing]

You do realize that the vast majority of "stories" we have from the past are of "freaks" like him.
Stories of Miyagi driving his fingers through a side of a cow at the butchers.
And the fact is, though he is a bit of a freak in terms of hand power, he has trained it for years, decades and as such, he can make it work.
There is a lesson there that most forget, on both sides of the TMA/MMA/Swedish cooks debate.


What I realize is these people, your friend, Miyagi, Yip Man, Bruce Lee, bla bla bla are all freaks of nature, 1 in 10 million, and not the norm. The dedication alone makes your friend a freak of nature, never mind his natural gifts. What I have learned from these people, is that in reality we all can be this way, if we are determined to be so, most aren't :)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

What I realize is these people, your friend, Miyagi, Yip Man, Bruce Lee, bla bla bla are all freaks of nature, 1 in 10 million, and not the norm. The dedication alone makes your friend a freak of nature, never mind his natural gifts. What I have learned from these people, is that in reality we all can be this way, if we are determined to be so, most aren't :)

James

I wish more you be as full of realization as you, save me a lot of headaches !

[Lucas]

well I don't know about popping it out.. but I am sure it will at least slow the person down.

with a strike, likely wont pop out. more like a black eye unless you get some....penetration (thats what she said :p ), with a grapple, you might be able to force it out if you do it fast.

but ya, all that aside. its not like these are going to be the types of things you will want to focus on, but what gets me is that people will sometimes just out right dismiss the possiblility.

its like saying you will never run into anyone with a loaded gun or knife just because you dont carry one yourself.

on the other side of the coin:

its irks me to no end when pure strikers think things like this are their saving grace from experienced grapplers. chances are the grappler could gouge your eye before you can gouge his...

[David Jamieson]

Hey try and keep your wing chun arguments over on your wing chun board.

geez.

:p

[Lucas]

Hey i resemble that remark!

er wait no nevermind....i stopped WC after 6 months.....

><

[Vajramusti]

Just sanjuro ronin's rambling.

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just sanjuro ronin's rambling.

joy

You call that ramblings ?
Bah, you should see me after drinking sake off naked womens bodies !!