watching wing chun on youtube

[puma]

Lately...I've been watching a lot of youtube..in particular wing chun clips and I've been reading the comments as well.
After watching the clip of Grandmaster Wong Sheung Leung performing Sil Lim Tao
and reading the comments made thereafter..a few questions came to mind
1..when learning wing chun..when is one ready for a fist fight and capable of applying self defense manuevers and applications?
2..why are there so many variations in the forms compared to the way I saw Yip Man perform it on youtube?
3..with all of the infighting ...I have seen negative comments about "every" wing chun practitioner..."my wing chun is better..his is all wrong" who do you learn from?..who has the real deal?..who can be trusted?...what's the point in learning with all the confussion going on?
As you all can see I am a wing chun dummy:) and your insight would be greatly appreciated

Sincerely..Puma

[sihing]

The best advice I can give you is to experience the varying Wing Chun lineages for yourself. Only this way, will you know what YOU like and not rely on video's, what people say or the lineage wars that are now upon us. The reason for the many variations stems back to improper teaching methods, people changing things, people without the proper knowledge teaching, big business :)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speaking from someone with a varied MA past ( and present) I have seen many people do forms from my systems and I have seen most of them being different in one way or another.
Couldn't care less.
Individualization is natural, even desirable at certain points.

[southernkf]

Lately...I've been watching a lot of youtube..in particular wing chun clips and I've been reading the comments as well.
After watching the clip of Grandmaster Wong Sheung Leung performing Sil Lim Tao
and reading the comments made thereafter..a few questions came to mind
1..when learning wing chun..when is one ready for a fist fight and capable of applying self defense manuevers and applications?
2..why are there so many variations in the forms compared to the way I saw Yip Man perform it on youtube?
3..with all of the infighting ...I have seen negative comments about "every" wing chun practitioner..."my wing chun is better..his is all wrong" who do you learn from?..who has the real deal?..who can be trusted?...what's the point in learning with all the confussion going on?
As you all can see I am a wing chun dummy:) and your insight would be greatly appreciated

Sincerely..Puma


Your fighting question isn't easy to answer. What is it your gauging. Someone with one day of exposure to wing chun might be ready to fight, not because of wing chun, but because of his innate ability to fight. Someone else might be in the system for 30 years and never really learn to fight, or atleast against a skilled opponent. Wing Chun is a learning process that takes time. Though many of Yip Man's students tested the art earlier on their wing chun path, most didn't have in depth knowledge of the art. Some as little as a few months. Their techniques worked well against those specific opponents, but probably wouldn't work well against others. Some teachers focus on fighting early others later.

As for differences, Yip Man progressed through the years as did his students. Some people added signiture moves to their forms. Wong Sheung Leung added a move to SLT that was added to Yip Man's forms after a certain point. So you can identify people who started later by the addition of this move. Others have added signiture moves to there own forms as well.

[wingchun187]

Lately...I've been watching a lot of youtube..in particular wing chun clips and I've been reading the comments as well.
After watching the clip of Grandmaster Wong Sheung Leung performing Sil Lim Tao
and reading the comments made thereafter..a few questions came to mind
1..when learning wing chun..when is one ready for a fist fight and capable of applying self defense manuevers and applications?
2..why are there so many variations in the forms compared to the way I saw Yip Man perform it on youtube?
3..with all of the infighting ...I have seen negative comments about "every" wing chun practitioner..."my wing chun is better..his is all wrong" who do you learn from?..who has the real deal?..who can be trusted?...what's the point in learning with all the confussion going on?
As you all can see I am a wing chun dummy:) and your insight would be greatly appreciated

Sincerely..Puma



do you train in a wing chun school?IF YOU DO ,DID YOU ASK YOUR TEACHER THE SAME QUESTION?

[r4cy]

Man, in my experience this is all I have to say.......everybody will make WC different... because wanting it or not, everybody applies it the way they see is more appropiate. So it means(at least to me) that wing chun will always evolve into something else. as the system passes from teacher to student and so on.My point of view(I could be wrong but it's just my opinion)is that wing chun,has the strength in it's concepts more that it's "style" that is why you have boang sao, and boang gerk because the concept is "to boang" and man, that could be done a lot of ways, same thing with pak sao, tan sao, gawn sao and so on (let's not talk about the forms)...... My advice to you is this.... observe as many lineages as you can..... and try to understand the "why" in every technique they do, no matter if they all do it different.

I'm tired of looking who has the more "pure" wing chun. Specially when even students from Yip Man himself do it soooo different as he did. And for me this is good... because it means that people are starting to understand that just because something started in a way it doesn't to have to stay that way... people can make it better as humankind gets more knowledge about anatomy, physics etc etc.
It's like holding on to stone tires instead of rubber tires just because they came first. Train hard, evaluate, apply and the "experience" will teach you in time all you need to know to be better.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Puma,
Ask yourself if a shovel is efficient. (that's not me being a d!ck).
My Sihing says this all the time.
It all depends on how you use it : )

J

[YungChun]

If you are looking and interested in fighting, then when checking out places you might consider asking them if they fight.. :eek:

If they look at you like you just flashed them, thats a red flag; You might consider looking elsewhere.. If they say yes then ask to watch.. Any attempt to hide what they are doing is a red flag..

Also if you spar or have sparring/fighting experience you might ask if you could spar with one or more of the people there..

Again, the reaction will be telling...

[jesper]

If they say yes then ask to watch.. Any attempt to hide what they are doing is a red flag..

Just a little hickup.
Some clubs dont show their fighting to outsider or people with little fighting experience.
Here in Denmark we have fight clubs where your not allowed to watch, only participate. And only after you have shown some skills.

That being said, any clubs where students dont spar or fight regularly is not a place to train if you seek to develope fighting skills.

[puma]

Thank you all for your comments...I appreciate all of them
Unfortunately I haven't had any formal martial arts training
yet.
I'm just an enthusiastic novice with a few ideas and a whole
lot of questions
The reason I asked my question about a fist fight and being able
to apply self defense manuvers and applications are due to this
comment I read on youtube where this guy basically said even
after learning Sil Lim Tao you're still not ready to fist fight
people...you have to do chi sao drills and lop sao and I had
always assumed that once you've learned a form..how to apply
applications and did some sparring you were basically good to go.
As you all can see.. I am a wing chun dummy who has a whole lot
to learn...thanks for the advice:)

[MisterNoobie]

The best advice I can give you is to experience the varying Wing Chun lineages for yourself. Only this way, will you know what YOU like and not rely on video's, what people say or the lineage wars that are now upon us. The reason for the many variations stems back to improper teaching methods, people changing things, people without the proper knowledge teaching, big business :)

James

This is very unfortunate for those of us that :

1. dont really have the knowledge to judge for ourselves what is more effective
2. Would like to train in an effective way regardless of what we 'like'
3. have been duped before by 'black belt programs' :o

[couch]

This is very unfortunate for those of us that :

1. dont really have the knowledge to judge for ourselves what is more effective
2. Would like to train in an effective way regardless of what we 'like'
3. have been duped before by 'black belt programs' :o

Well, honestly, chances to not get burned AT ALL are pretty slim.

I went to the infamous Temple Kung-Fu for 8-9 years through my teenage years and looking back it was really good for what I was doing and for the age/experience that I had in the martial arts.

And because of everything that has happened with my martial arts training, I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it never happened.

I even trained at a Traditional Wing Chun school that I thought wasn't very good. That wasn't the case...it just wasn't what I wanted at that time. Looking back, that was good for me for where I was at in my life as well.

Honestly, you have to do a little research, ask around...but when it comes down to it: stick your neck out and do it! Do it and enjoy it for the time that you're in it. Only after you've experienced something can you talk from experience (go figure!).

Then you can experiment with other "styles" or martial art families.

Lastly, after all the gyms and schools I've been to visit and trained at, there was always something I didn't like - that I thought I could do better. But I took my pieces and walked on.

Running water never goes stale (this one's for you, Jim!).

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

PS - about your #2, if you don't like it, why train it?

[t_niehoff]

This is very unfortunate for those of us that :

1. dont really have the knowledge to judge for ourselves what is more effective


Here's the thing -- look to results, that will tell you if something - a training method or a fighting method - is effective. Results in fighting, since after all that's what we are allegedly training to develop better skills at. If you can't see people fight, and fight other good people, you can't tell their results. And - pay attention to this since this is the crux of it -- you can't develop good fighting skills without lots and lots of quality sparring, in other words, sparring with really good fighters. If people aren't training like boxers and wreslters do, they simply can't develop much in the way of significant skills.

Demos, talk, concepts, theory, forms, chi sao, etc. is all bullsh1t. If you can't see the results for yourself, walk away and count your blessings.



2. Would like to train in an effective way regardless of what we 'like'


Before you look around watch these two videos:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=aliveness&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7892384548000318708&q=aliveness&total=45&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3



3. have been duped before by 'black belt programs' :o

You are not alone. Essentially everyone who has ever practiced a TCMA, including WCK, has been duped. If you decide to practice a CMA, go into it with your eyes open, be extremely critical and skeptical of any and all claims that there is not independent verifiable evidence for, only beleive what you see not what you hear, assume the instructor has little in the way of real skills, etc. until you are proved incorrect. When you are surrounded by people selling snake-oil, cults, and etc. it pays to be wary.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a little hickup.
Some clubs dont show their fighting to outsider or people with little fighting experience.
Here in Denmark we have fight clubs where your not allowed to watch, only participate. And only after you have shown some skills.

That being said, any clubs where students dont spar or fight regularly is not a place to train if you seek to develope fighting skills.

Be VERY wary of any school/club/gym, that don't show the "real fighting" to outsiders, chances are that they live in their own little "closed door" world and IF they spar, it will be amongst themselves in a typical "pat you on your back for being so deadly" environment.
Skill levels tend to be very low or degenerative because you are always sparring the same people , the same way.

[jesper]

Or maybe they dont let you in to watch because fightclub isnt about showing off.

But I grant you that if your curious about the teachers ability there is a very simple solution to finding out :)
Ofcourse that means taking a personal risk, something which many people are afraid of.

On a personal note I have found that its often not that hard to see, even for a beginner if the club is training fighters or not.
look at the intensity with which they train and look at how fit the average student is.
If you want a benchmark, se if you can locate a decent boxing club. If they dont train atleast as hard, forget it.

[JGTevo]

Or maybe they dont let you in to watch because fightclub isnt about showing off.

But I grant you that if your curious about the teachers ability there is a very simple solution to finding out :)
Ofcourse that means taking a personal risk, something which many people are afraid of.

On a personal note I have found that its often not that hard to see, even for a beginner if the club is training fighters or not.
look at the intensity with which they train and look at how fit the average student is.
If you want a benchmark, se if you can locate a decent boxing club. If they dont train atleast as hard, forget it.

Never seen a Wing Chun school train even a 1/4th as hard as your average joe boxer.
Unless it's a really ****ty boxing school! :)

[Vajramusti]

Someone sez"Never seen a Wing Chun school train even a 1/4th as hard as your average joe boxer.
Unless it's a really ****ty boxing school! ".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not have seen everything. There are folks in HK and Macao who train pretty hard when they enter full contact matches in Asia.
But not everyone is glued to monitor screens and Youtube.

joy chaudhuri

[sihing]

That's why I spend less and less time here Joy, to many people with know it all attitudes, making claims like they are facts !

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

puma:

If there's no medium-to-heavy contact sparring going on (including head shots) - that they will allow you to watch BEFORE you join...

then chances are this is a school that's not worth your while. They've got something to hide. There may be a few exceptions to that rule of thumb - but for the most part - this is what it is.

My advice is to go with the percentages. If they don't let you see it in advance - then they don't get to see your money.

(Read Lou Thesz's quote below). :cool: ;)

[jesper]

I dont know if your remarks are directed at me ultimate.

just to make it clear. Fightclub as done in denmark has nothing to do with your daily training. It is pure fighting against a random opponent who can be a beginner, at your level or even much better. you dont know beforehand.
The whole idea is for you to test yourself against an opponent who want to knock you out. Hence you dont get to watch, only participate.

I put out an article a few years back covering this
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32797


As for the rest, I can only stress again that if I fully agree with you that if the students dont train with high intensity, they dont train for fighting but for something else, whatever that might be.

[JGTevo]

Someone sez"Never seen a Wing Chun school train even a 1/4th as hard as your average joe boxer.
Unless it's a really ****ty boxing school! ".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not have seen everything. There are folks in HK and Macao who train pretty hard when they enter full contact matches in Asia.
But not everyone is glued to monitor screens and Youtube.

joy chaudhuri

There are exceptions to every rule, but there really is no denying the ridiculously poor state of martial arts in America. Finding a teacher who knows what he's talking about is hard enough, and that is enough for me.. because I can literally list fifty schools in cali that I've personally been to and talked with the instructor/tried out, that don't even have that.

Obviously there are schools that train hard.
But how many are there out there? Seriously? It's even hard finding a Boxing or MMA trainer anymore who will train you properly.

[sihing]

There are exceptions to every rule, but there really is no denying the ridiculously poor state of martial arts in America. Finding a teacher who knows what he's talking about is hard enough, and that is enough for me.. because I can literally list fifty schools in cali that I've personally been to and talked with the instructor/tried out, that don't even have that.

Obviously there are schools that train hard.
But how many are there out there? Seriously? It's even hard finding a Boxing or MMA trainer anymore who will train you properly.

Dude, any time there is money to be made, there will be low quality, no matter what the product or service will be. People are gulible when they do little research in what they want to spend their money on. There are sh!tty Muay Thai clubs in Thailand, just like there are sh!tty Kung Fu schools in China, it's no different here in North America. I would have to say one of the best spots for Martial Arts in North America is LA, they have everything there, and the quality is high, but I think it is also fair to say there are good to great Martial Artist in all sorts of places. My first Wing Chun instructor began where I am now, in the middle of nowhere, but he was one of the best Martial Artists I and plenty of others have ever seen. He trained like a pro, and in his prime was quite the fighter, even though he avoided it at all costs (the delemma of being in a rock band, with drunkin band mates).

James

[JGTevo]

Obviously I agree with the assumption that the profitability of martial arts schools, factor into this. Also it is an extremely "easy" "career" to get into. Walk into a TKD school, walk out with a black belt. Study a few years at your normal kung fu school from age 16 to 20, and suddenly you're a qualified teacher.

Jack Dempsey is the most recent person in my mind, as I sit here reading his book on Boxing, who made this claim that the popularity of boxing(this is in the 1950's, when he wrote this, mind you) created a large number of so-called "Instructors" and so-called "experts" who didn't really know anything.

The problem is that, regardless of instructor or school, the expectation from a normal practictioner who does not compete actively, is far below that of one who does.

As for LA being one of the best spots.. it's also one of the worst. We've got Hawkins Cheung, Robert Chu, Gary Lam, Tom Wong for Wing Chun, they're amazing. But then we've got Todd Tei in burbank. ugh. Lets see, cruise along Ventura blvd from studio city to woodland hills and you've got... a TKD/Capoeira school, a failing Traditional Wing Chun school, Billy Blanks Tae Bo, another TKD school, a United Studios of Self-Defense School(*GAH*), Wutang mountain(korean tai chi FTW??), a decent Kenpo school, and a few boxing clubs.

I've been to all of those, met with all of their instructors and seen what they've had to offer. I've been friends with students of those schools and seen their usual level of training and understanding and honestly, I would be embarrassed to say I was a student of theirs.

Unfortunately the good places are really hard to find out here because the bad places outnumber them 30 or 40 to 1.

My original point though, was that even among the best Kung Fu schools out here... they don't train like fighters. Thats not to say that they NEED to, everyone goes into it with different goals, and putting everyone through hardcore fight training would leave only the people who have the willpower to withstand that. Most of these people never even get into fights. I've seen people who train Wing chun like a professional fighter, just haven't been to a Wing chun school that does.

And like I said, thats okay. It's good enough to find an instructor who knows what they're talking about... and to truly be trained properly there needs to be constant one-on-one interaction. A Fighter needs to be personally developed by his mentor(sifu) and himself. Group classes don't cut it. It doesn't make logical sense that a group of people can train at the same pace that a single person can, because each individual has their own level that they need to constantly build on.

[jesper]

While I think you have a point I also think that every school that claims to teach fighters, need to have atleast a group training hard core.
Many bigger schools I have seen are divided that way, so you have classes for mr joe average, but also the possibility to train hard in preparation of actual combat.

[AndrewS]

JGTevo,

I'm down in Silverlake off the 2,5, and 101. I train escrima and WT and have a couple of guys training with me in a garage. My workout blog is up on the S&C site. If you're interested drop me a pm and I can kick you my cell number so we can talk.

Andrew

[anerlich]

Jack Dempsey is the most recent person in my mind, as I sit here reading his book on Boxing, who made this claim that the popularity of boxing(this is in the 1950's, when he wrote this, mind you) created a large number of so-called "Instructors" and so-called "experts" who didn't really know anything.


Johnny come latelies.

Miyamoto Mushashi wrote much the same thing in the 1600s.

[JGTevo]

Definitely Andrew. My car is currently in the shop so after it's done I'd be interested in coming to train with you.