Xing Yi & Wing Chun - similarities?

[D-FENS]

hello,
I am an intermediate practitioner of sun style xing yi, and now have the opportunity to train with a well known WC instructor in my town. So i'd like to know if these two arts blend well. They seem to share a lot of similar principles, like simplicity, directness, centerline theory and angulation. Does anyone here practice both? And what is your experience? thanks, wes

[southernkf]

hello,
I am an intermediate practitioner of sun style xing yi, and now have the opportunity to train with a well known WC instructor in my town. So i'd like to know if these two arts blend well. They seem to share a lot of similar principles, like simplicity, directness, centerline theory and angulation. Does anyone here practice both? And what is your experience? thanks, wes

I hear people asking if the arts blend well, but I am never sure what they mean. Could elaborate on what you mean by blending? Do you mean if you can squish the two together and flow in and out of each other? Do you mean both can work in the same platform? Or if the two share the same principles?

I am not very informed on Xing Yi other than seeing it several times, so I can't make an informed opinion. My first thought is that they may seem somewhat similar on the surface but that a deeper look would reveal they probably work on different principles. Though perhaps their is some common themes that might be followed in both arts. Wing Chun's keys are in the elbows and knees. Without these in place, it becomes difficult to utilize many of the principles wing chun relies on. I havn't seen a similar elbows and knees in Xing Yi. Also Wing Chun focuses on the center line above all else. Not sure if Xing Yi does.

Maybe this answers a little bit.

[D-FENS]

I hear people asking if the arts blend well, but I am never sure what they mean. Could elaborate on what you mean by blending? Do you mean if you can squish the two together and flow in and out of each other? Do you mean both can work in the same platform? Or if the two share the same principles?


Basically if the xingyi body method will improve or hinder my WC, and since xingyi is based on certain principles of motion, if they can also be applied to WC techniques.

cheers,
wes

[k gledhill]

different thinking

[anerlich]

I did Xingyi for 5 years, I've done WC for about 18. There are some similarities, but also major differences.

The only way you're going to know for sure is to try it and find out.

[YungChun]

I'd be interested to hear what people think the significant similarities and differences are.. Many seem to think that there is a strong XingYi influence in WCK and from what I can see there appear to be more similarities than differences...

This looks pretty close to me regardless of the quality, realism, etc... I assume there are differences among XY as there are differences among WC..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHEbJxX_vV0

[anerlich]

Xingyi teaching styles vary markedly, and it's pretty safe to say that the school I attended was more out there than some.

Xingyi is an "internal" style. What that meant where I trained is that it is based on one/some of the philosophical principles of TCM, viz. Five Element Theory. Similarly, Bagwa is based on the 8 trigrams, taiji on Yin and Yang. I was taught that Xingyi is as much, if not more, a system of health cultivation and physical culture as it is a fighting system, and the way I was taught it would be better for that than fighting, though you have to be a lot less skeptical about TCM than I am for that to mean much.

The fundamental techniques cover (mostly) the centreline, and redirect and strike more or less simultaneously. Each basic technique corresponds roughly to one of the five elements, and you use the noursihing and checking (Sheng/Ko) cycles of the Wu Xing to both develop combinations and employ defensive tactics.

The foot work is substantially different to TWC footwork. Power is developed from a stamp of the rear foot (among other methods). Some WC styles AFAIK use similar mechanics for impact power, but not TWC.

A number of the animal forms go outside the centreline/facing principles. One in particular is IMO one of the best ways I have ever seen to put the health of your knees at serious risk. Imagine plyometric one-legged squats.

Xingyi is often taught with BaGwa, implying that many of its own senior practitioners do not regard it as a complete art in itself. But then this is true of WC and most other styles, traditional or otherwise, also IMO.

While it may appear attractive to some on an intellectual and even perhaps spiritual level, basing a fighting style on a philosophical principle, especially one about which one had reservations to begin with, is IMO not particularly practical.

I'd prefer to base my training on physics, biomechanics, sports science and practical observation and real world results, and the abilities of my coaches irrespective of chosen style, rather than esoteric philosophy. That's why I chose WC, and later BJJ and shootfighting as well.

All the above is based on my own Xingyi experience, which was under the tutelage of one of the earlier Taiwan-qualified gwailo acupuncturists practising in Australia, who was very strong and held a high Dan rank in karate as well, but who had some serious personal issues and a highly manipulative personality. I know of other Xingyi teachers who have successfully fought in the ring and street, so I have no reason to doubt that with the right coaching and approaches to training it could be an effective system. I just found that outcome to be most unlikely in the environment I then found myself.

Sometimes doing two arts that are too alike adds little because one's outlook is not challenged or broadened. The differences may lead to greater insights into the strengths and weaknesses of each approach, and how to combine them.

There are some purists who think that doing a second art may totally ruin your progress in the first, but this IMO is too often motivated by greed and desire to control. IMO the more you know the better.

[YungChun]

Good post..:cool:

Thanks for the thoughts..

[southernkf]

I like what anerlich said. I don't know if one would hamper the other, but I think they follow different principles, which anerlich pointed out. If you don't face, have the knees and elbows then I think you might fall into some situations were the arts work differently. It seems that wing chun works because the hands are all congruent with each other and the body mechanics. The stances and turns help with the application of the hands. If you tried to use the hands with a different framework it seems to me the system would start to fall apart.

I suspect one will find many similarities. The mind loves to identify and classify things, to make sense out of disconnections. Hey, we see pictures in the stars, make analogies, and often derive false conclusions. That is human nature. No doubt there are bound to be some similarities and even some cross over between those two arts, if not any two arts. Perhaps Xing Yi is more compatible, or perhaps not.

Other arts may not be compatible with the mechanics of another, but that doesn't neccesarily mean that it is useless to pursue. I have dabbled in a couple other arts and found that I could find parallels. Often I gained insight to wing chun from another art. I was able to look at things differently and perhaps the teacher, or system, had a different view about something similar. That *may* translate back into your wing chun training. Though I am not suggesting people take up extra arts to glimmer more from wing chun, but that if you do take a different art, you may be able to see things a bit differently, for better or worse.

[byond1]

Hi guys,

Great post anerlich! And good sharing from everyone.

Are there similarities between WCK and Hsing I?? Depends! What branch of WCK are you using as your base for comparison? If you use most H.K Branchs, TWC, HFY, or a few others, there is, imo, what others have stated - IE more differance to like qualities.

If you use Fut Sau WCK, Yuen Kay Shan WCK, Leung Sheung H.K/Ken Chung or Kulo Village WCK - there are some" like qualities" to a Hsing I and Bot Gwa combined into one.

Basicaly there are Noi Gung aspects to some branchs of WCK, that include certain body structures found in Hsing i and Bot Gwa. The limits of Noi Gung and how it applies to WCK, has been under serious debate though recently. Very compact body structure, with combining circular and straight movements into one, is standard for YKS, Kulo ect. The sliding footwork that always remains on the ground and rooted is another similar idea. Conditioning of the tendons is of core importance.

This doesnt mean WCK is internal, as I dont believe in that, personally, in relation to WCK, but its on the borderline, imo. I dont think "internal" is a usefull paradigm, but I fully agree with the concept of "Song' or being completly relaxed.

I dont think Hsing I or BOt Gwa had a direct relation to the creation of WCK. But what I do think is that the Snake boxing component of WCK was an internal system, that shared qualities to other internal systems like Hsing I or Bot Gwa or was from a source related to one of them perhaps. So some branchs of WCK still have some of that flavor.


Its interesting to note that the founder of Y chuan dogged all the Hsing i and Bot Gwa guys that loaded down the arts with Wusing theory and other models. He felt those were not original to the methods, and not usefull in the least.


B

[JGTevo]

All forms of art, systems, and styles may supplement eachother unless they are scientifically incorrect. While some principles, techniques, stances, and strategies may be in direct conflict with eachother, one must keep in mind that factual knowledge and experience can never hinder oneself.

If however, you express yourself solely as a "This Style" person, you will have several problems when blending arts together.

In actuality, stance, technique, principles and strategy are a variable that may be blended together in an infinite number of ways - Sometimes not exactly as they are taught.. but an intelligent individual must question, create and refine. Working within the confines of static ideas will limit you to the intelligence and expression of other people. A Mindless drone may succeed only in limited circumstances.

[couch]

From this website: http://www.wudanginternal.com/
In Xing Yi we say, "My opponent starts before me, but I arrive first".


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I like that...sounds like WC to a degree. WC getting there first because of the straight line or getting off of the line and on the half-beat.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik