A Good Answer???

[TenTigers]

why don't TCMA guys compete in MMA type events?
Before anyone answers, let us agree that we are looking for mature, intelligent,thought provoking answers.
1) NOT-"Because we can't rip, tear,eye gouge,joint break..Bull$hit.
2) NOT "Because TCMA is outdated,or uses techniques that never worked...Bull$hit
3) NOT "Chi blasting, Dim-Mak, whatever crap you wanna call it-Bull$hit
4) NOT an excuse to promote yourself, your school, your friend's school,gym,basement, on yet another thread
5) AND NOT a back and forth adolescent argument that seems to happen on every thread lately.

I will speak for myself, I have had some students that were going in that direction, but went to school, or had a falling out-one did go on and become a pro kickboxer, though. For me, perhaps it's a numbers thing? I have a small school. Tiger Shullman has a handful of guys who regularly compete in K1,and Sabaki etc. But with over thirty schools, and 200 students in each, out of 6,000 students, I think ANYONE would be able to find five hardcore guys.
Perhaps it is the David Carradine type rep Gung-Fu has gotten that attracts people that are not looking for this type of training. Perhaps the guys who want it, are heading straight towards the mma, bjj, and boxing gyms. Not sure.
I have a few who are showing promise, time will tell.

[bodhitree]

People train martial arts for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the TMA communities attract people whose reasons do not include fighting competatively or to fight competatively in an MMA venue?

[TenTigers]

could be. We developed a bad rep ever since David Carradine, and the over commercialization of TCMA-especially McDojos claiming to be Gung-Fu when the actually did bad kempo, and all the guys in the seventies who made up crap they took from Shaw Bros movies, threw out their karate gis,put on black uniforms, changed their shuto blocks to tiger claws. ok fine. Maybe our rep has been so tarnished that we are only attracting a certain clientele.
A strong possibility. I can live with that. This leaves it up to the TCMA to develop a "marketing plan" to bring back their rep.
Still begs the question-what about the TCMA guys who were always doing it real, and the guys who are now?

[Oso]

a well trained and conditioned TCMA guy should be able to compete in any striking only venue with any size glove...they of course have to train for the ruleset and equipment that may be called for. Training/sparring in school w/ sanda/sanshou rules is a start. Being open for anyone to walk in to your school for sparring (with waivers and a good attitude from them) will help them get experience against unknown opponents. So will going out to other schools to spar with them.

They should also do well in a venue with throwing as well.

But, they'll have to cross train in a grappling art to learn how to move on the ground against a grappler unless you have the skill base to teach them yourself.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Personally, I could careless about defending the honor of CMA. Why? That would be like an attorney saying they are going to defend every criminal in the world. How would they know who was innocent/guilty. CMA encompasses so many styles, ideas, and differences that it is way too general. It seems to me like CMA people want acceptance, they want sport fighters and MMA people to say, "We respect him/her because he/she does Kung Fu", rather than "We respect him/her because he/she is a good fighter". Back to the point, CMA contains styles that are good and styles that suck. Many other traditional arts have these as well. So why does every Kung Fu guy have to defend the honor of all things Chinese when it comes to fighting, who gives a s**t. Defend your style, your way of fighting, and your ideas of fighting and leave the other crap out of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its a tough question to ask, perhaps it should be, "why do YOU as a TCMA not compete".

I bet the ansswers will be quite varied, but most wil be that it hold very little interest, I mean even in sport combat gyms like boxing and MT that are focused on competition, not everyone competes, so in most TCMA that are NOT focused on that, I would thing the number would be very much higher.

Competition was great when I competed, but I never truly focused on it, outside training fro an actual match, an most of the time I competed to test myself, not so much to get ranked and such.
Outside the testing thing it never meant anything to me, hence victory or defeat was largely irrelevant.

Unless competition is an active goal for a school or an individual, you won't see much focus on that.

[cjurakpt]

I think one of the reasons is that, at least in terms of so-called "practical application", the "problem" that TCMA is trying to solve, vis-a-vis it's combat strategy (and this is, necessarilly, a gross generalization), is predicated on opponents using TCMA s well; meaning that, if the guy from the school down the street, or the provence next door is focusing on bridging and fighting under a certain set of cultural norms, then you are goingt to focus on countering that within the same context; one thing to remember is that until only the last few hundred years, travel for the vast majority of people was far more restrictted than it is today, and means of communnicaing very also limited and indirect (no such thing as YOuTube!); therefore, new ideas spread slowly and in fewer numbers, and so seeing the entire elephant was not typically an option - you got the ears, the feet, mybe the nose, and you worked with that; these days, the ability to compare efficacy on a world-wide stage has shown that bridging "works" pretty much when two people agree to stay in that range, which for cultural reasons might work, but for combat strategy makes no sense, especially when moving from striking to grappling range quickly, which are ranges that, if one person tries to "leave", the other person has much more ability to make them stay there - this doesn't work in trapping / bridging range, because it's too easy to break away back out to striking or move in and engage with grappling; so, since TCMA seems to, in general, favor bridging / trapping (even at long range, it seems like they are, in a sense, referencing that range as where to be most effective from), that's why it's not as competative against approaches that don't go for that

now, this may not be the whole story, but I think in order to see why things are as they are now, trying to understand the historical roots is useful, so at least looking in that direction seems to yield some clues...

[TenTigers]

I think that might have been the case in the past, but today-especially with the advent of the internet/youtube/forums, etc, more TCMA schools (not alot, but more) are doing the WC vs boxing,vs Muay Thai,vs grappling, or at least trying to add cross traiing-not because one is better than the other, but because to be able to fight, one needs to address the fact that people will come at you with things other than your own particular style's techniques.
Again, it boils down to numbers, I suppose.

[Shaolinlueb]

i think most guys think they are better off in an mma school. once you train kung fu for the ring, it becomes more of sanshou with jj mixed into it. traditional kung fu encompasses much more then that. imo there are much better things to study for the ring then kung fu. yeah i'm gonna get flamed for this, but kung fu was never about the ring. come on look at all those old masters in the ring. most of them were jokes. skills good, but fighting no.

kung fu fighters have become few and far between these days.

[MasterKiller]

come on look at all those old masters in the ring. most of them were jokes. skills good, but fighting no.

Funny. I always figured good kung fu skills should = good fighting.

[TenTigers]

I only know of that one fight
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ixi2GLcd9s
and unfortunately, this one instance (and that deluca guy) are the examples that everyone goes to for their argument.

hmmmm, kinda the way I blame David Carradine for everything that is wrong in TCMA today....


(but it's true!)

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think it could also have to do with how rare it is to see a tcma school share space with a teacher from another style. but i think its par for the course that BJJ schools share space with muay thai classes. so if you do kung fu you have to pay tuition at two different places and that is costly. not to mention that many sifus are vehemently againt you going to another school out of fear of either losing the student (and the money) or having the student show the other school their style (losing potential money). i think the BJJ people are more laid back about cross training bc vale tudo matches have been going on for a long time in brazil so they know the need to cross train.

[Golden Arms]

From what I have seen, it seems to boil down to two main points:

Many people that come to the CMA schools arent the type that would want to compete in a full contact venue

and

Those that would like to compete end up competing in San Shou since doing throws and strikes doesn't require modifying the schools curriculum, but instead paring it down to some basics that can be developed fast.

As it stands right now, I feel any CMA school that actually trains striking in a decent manner (which seem to be few and far between from most of the tournaments I have been to, but they are out there), would still need to cross train their fighters in some sort of ground fighting so that their guys are not at a disadvantage in MMA, if that is the venue they wanted to train in. If you are going to go to two different schools, why not instead just go to one that teaches it all? And there we have why the MMA schools get a lot of the fighters.

[Oso]

really, this is just starting the same old kind of debate and it won't really give any new answers because there aren't any.

[lkfmdc]

I have one school, at any given time I probably have around 250 active students. Yet, at any given time I have 8 to 15 guys (and gals) training to fight and competing. I had a guy offered a K-1 MAX contract, the top of the striking game, he was young and stupid and wanted to get married and start "being responsible" (ie paying other people's bills for them) but right now I have a guy about to go to Japan to fight pro Muay Thai and a guy about to turn pro in MMA.

My school is about fighitng, so I get fighters and people who want to be fighters. The "kung fu culture", especially in THIS COUNTRY, is full of crazy people who have been spoon fed nonsense and eat it up. When I was "still a kung fu person" I was basicly doing the same thing, but every day I had piles of morons coming in my door who wanted to learn "secrets", "dim mak", "Buddha palm" etc.... CJURAKPT can attest to this sure enough.... Even today I get people who come in because of www.LamaKungFu.org who want to learn "Lama Pai".... inevitably if they ever actually step into a class, because heck if you want to learn Lama Pai you should be able to do one of those "basic" san da classes as well, they never make it out of the first class.... Today, people who want to do Kung Fu are looking for fantasy, it's the new LARP'ing martial art

[TenTigers]

That's the direction we are going in my school, as well as some of my peers. I expect this to start becoming more and more the norm rather than the exception...within five years or so. Tiger Shullman completely changed his curriculum from Kyokushun mixed with some jiu-jutsu/Aiki stuff, to MMA. This was a several years back. He saw the trend, and went whole hog and now he is looked at as a leader in the industry-despite what you might say about his business methods and McDojo etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's the direction we are going in my school, as well as some of my peers. I expect this to start becoming more and more the norm rather than the exception...within five years or so. Tiger Shullman completely changed his curriculum from Kyokushun mixed with some jiu-jutsu/Aiki stuff, to MMA. This was a several years back. He saw the trend, and went whole hog and now he is looked at as a leader in the industry-despite what you might say about his business methods and McDojo etc.

He was not the only one that saw the "business trend".

[TenTigers]

yeah, not intended to hijack the thread into a business conversation, simply pointing out that the trend is firmly in place, and the smart people recognized it, and adjusted accordingly.(those of us on the short bus, took a little more time) Whether the motivation is business, or producing better students, or training yourself, it's about evolution.

[The Willow Sword]

why don't TCMA guys compete in MMA type events?


Well Maybe the reason is that TCMA guys are looking for something more than wanting to go and brutalize someone else?
Maybe TCMA Guys dont want to attract that kind of violence to themselves. Maybe TCMA guys just want to study an ART FORM and Learn valuable techniques to defend their life if they are put in that situation.
Maybe TCMA guys have evolved past this "i gotta do the MMA thing because thats what everyone else is doing and i should do it to because that is the stigma of fighting and id better get with it or i am gonna be hurtin real bad if i have to go up against one of these guys".
Maybe TCMA guys and gals want to belong to a community of people who want to stay in shape and learn something unique and be around others of the same mindset.

Whatever the REASONS are i think i can safely say that in MY OPINION the reason why TCMA guys dont want to compete in MMA events is because they will get their @SS handed to them and killed and dominated because what they learn is a bunch of BS and will not serve them out there in the real world. Lets face it, TCMA guys are all LARPER No lifers who live in a fantasy realm of kung fu hollywood movies and they think that doing all that stuff is going to help them survive a REAL situation. Hey man, 95% of fights go to the ground and if you dont have a good ground game, you are dead, DEAD. If you dont know how to Mount a guy in a closet h)moerotic pose and choke him out you are just ASKING for trouble. I mean HEY, TCMA Guys, put down your play swords and do something REAL for a change. You little patchouly wearing pot smoking democrat supporting america HATERS are just fooling yourselves. Put down your BONG and go to a Krav MAGA Gym and get with the REAL.


Peace,TWS

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, not intended to hijack the thread into a business conversation, simply pointing out that the trend is firmly in place, and the smart people recognized it, and adjusted accordingly.(those of us on the short bus, took a little more time) Whether the motivation is business, or producing better students, or training yourself, it's about evolution.

yes, quite accurate, some of us were cross training from the start and never saw the "big deal" about MMA training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well Maybe the reason is that TCMA guys are looking for something more than wanting to go and brutalize someone else?
Maybe TCMA Guys dont want to attract that kind of violence to themselves. Maybe TCMA guys just want to study an ART FORM and Learn valuable techniques to defend their life if they are put in that situation.
Maybe TCMA guys have evolved past this "i gotta do the MMA thing because thats what everyone else is doing and i should do it to because that is the stigma of fighting and id better get with it or i am gonna be hurtin real bad if i have to go up against one of these guys".
Maybe TCMA guys and gals want to belong to a community of people who want to stay in shape and learn something unique and be around others of the same mindset.

Whatever the REASONS are i think i can safely say that in MY OPINION the reason why TCMA guys dont want to compete in MMA events is because they will get their @SS handed to them and killed and dominated because what they learn is a bunch of BS and will not serve them out there in the real world. Lets face it, TCMA guys are all LARPER No lifers who live in a fantasy realm of kung fu hollywood movies and they think that doing all that stuff is going to help them survive a REAL situation. Hey man, 95% of fights go to the ground and if you dont have a good ground game, you are dead, DEAD. If you dont know how to Mount a guy in a closet h)moerotic pose and choke him out you are just ASKING for trouble. I mean HEY, TCMA Guys, put down your play swords and do something REAL for a change. You little patchouly wearing pot smoking democrat supporting america HATERS are just fooling yourselves. Put down your BONG and go to a Krav MAGA Gym and get with the REAL.


Peace,TWS

krav Maga ?
Dude...of all the things to say...

[TenTigers]

that line has been done to death in all the other threads. I think we are all in agreement that people bought hook line and sinker into the whole David Carradine thing-(from now on DC).
So that's basically it then? We have the DC group and the guys who are evolving their craft and the lines have been drawn. Anything else?

[monji112000]

why don't TCMA guys compete in MMA type events?
they do.
Better questions:
1) why aren't allot of these fights on the web?
2) why don't "people" know about them?
3) why isn't "insert-your-style" even trying to compete in any sporting events?
4) why does martial arts seem to resemble many religions.. are we allow to think?
5) Why do I need to see someone's video to make a decision that I should be able to make if I am older than 16?
6) Why can't I use common sense, and figure these questions out?
7) Why does a contradicting opinion bother me so much, and why can't I take into account that I DON"T KNOW EVERYTHING.

It should be plainly obvious to everyone why you don't see "traditional Martial Arts" in the UFC, pride ect.. most people come from TMA backgrounds or train at a "TMA" school. In order to compete at these events you must cross-train. It doesn't matter if you are good at one thing, you must be competent at all of them.
Don't expect anyone to post any fights were someone does a tiger-craine-dimak-chain punch in any type of MMA/SANDA/MT/ect. fight. refer to the common sense question.

[The Willow Sword]

krav Maga ?
Dude...of all the things to say...


hahah yeah i know. But seriously i HAVE been interested in going to a class. There is this really cool lebanese dude who comes into the store where i work and he trains in Krav Maga, and apparantly the KM places here in Austin Have all the MMA Bas Rutten style training. It sparked a slight interest, but slight nonetheless.

hehe and you KNOW my last post was intended for humour. ;) Peace,TWS

[monji112000]

krav Maga ?
Dude...of all the things to say...


Krav can be good and it can be well krap.:D
Its really just basic stuff, its not really the techniques that make it work, its the training. You go to Israel and join the army.. you get a intense training schedule. I don't care if you are doing Karate, you are going to kick someone's --- training like they do. You join the average school here in the US, after watching that lopez movie.. don't expect too much. Amir Perez is cool, and any place that is using Bases system, probably does aliveness stuff so it probably isn't bad. They normally do very little sparring, and it shows. You want to learn Krav go join the IDF. Watch out for the females though.. they can really throw a punch.

Actually Israel doesn't have much in martial arts schools. Its a really good place to open a MMA/Sanda School. I hear BJJ is slowly picking up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Krav can be good and it can be well krap.:D
Its really just basic stuff, its not really the techniques that make it work, its the training. You go to Israel and join the army.. you get a intense training schedule. I don't care if you are doing Karate, you are going to kick someone's --- training like they do. You join the average school here in the US, after watching that lopez movie.. don't expect too much. Amir Perez is cool, and any place that is using Bases system, probably does aliveness stuff so it probably isn't bad. They normally do very little sparring, and it shows. You want to learn Krav go join the IDF. Watch out for the females though.. they can really throw a punch.

Actually Israel doesn't have much in martial arts schools. Its a really good place to open a MMA/Sanda School. I hear BJJ is slowly picking up.

Military KM and civilian are not the same thing, but ANY systems that advocates hard sparring has at least that going for them.

[The Willow Sword]

www.fitandfearless.com

this is the website to the austin area schools

[MightyB]

I stopped competing in san shou- it costs so darn much. At least $50 registration, there's usually nothing in Michigan so I have to travel- travel means gas, food and lodging- All in all, I end up paying 200 plus for a tourney where maybe I get 3 guys in my weight class. There's no governing body, so if you win, you're world champion in the unknown Kansas tourney where 3 people showed up to fight.-- When I was in the mood and had the money- there was only 1 *ONE* other guy in the whole state of Michigan who wanted to compete in San Shou (Circa 1999) - so 1 *ONE* real sparring partner opportunity- unfortunately he wasn't in my school- so no real hard sparring opportunity... Anyway, cut the cost, increase the participation, increase the access to the venues- heck- even in my mid 30's, I'd still fight.

Anyway- I'm sore as heck from Judo last night- guess what- there's a whole bunch of people who always want to hard spar. There's a governing body. There's access to affordable tournaments. They even have an insurance policy to protect us competitors through the USJF that's just part of being a member. So guess where I fight now?

[sanjuro_ronin]

www.fitandfearless.com

this is the website to the austin area schools

No comment.

[Lucas]

No comment.

dude cmon its got anelina jolee (sp) on the top of the website.

you know shes a fighter right?

[RonH]

I don't get why they'd use movie stills on that rotating banner. It doesn't flow that well with the other pictures, but at least there's only 2 stills.

[Pork Chop]

why don't TCMA guys compete in MMA type events?


they don't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj-fbabMoDk

a lil bjj can take your kung fu a long way

[lkfmdc]

they don't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj-fbabMoDk

a lil bjj can take your kung fu a long way

take out the school in the background, and what would make this guy distinctly "CMA" as opposed to every other MMA person on the planet? He's doing conditioning, pad work, wrestling, BJJ.

According to a TON of people on here, he isn't fighting with his kung fu, is he?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

If you are not in a horse stance, using phoneix eye, and wearing shiny pajamas, it is not really Kung Fu. I cannot believe all the silly people advocating pad work, hard sparring, conditioning, and wrestling. These are not the elements of Kung Fu. And what is all this hype about BJJ. People who are always on their backs, pfff,
you guys have guard, we have lotus position, you make the choice.:D

[Pork Chop]

i dunno, i wouldn't say his hand combinations or his shadow are exactly typical of boxing- nor his pad work. Footworks pretty flat footed from what I saw.
He doesn't put enough of his hips in his kicks to really be stereotypical thai.

bak mei and dragon are short hand arts anyway, so i don't think the transition to gloves looks as drastic for them.

i mean, i know where you're coming from and i guess i can see both sides.
i also still remember the info you gave out on gate theory in your san da, so I consider you part of that movement as well.

learning how to use your stuff will having you doing certain things boxing, muay thai, and mma guys do. on the other hand, it should have its own flavor. i can honestly say at some of the schools i trained at that there was no indigenous flavor, it was all american kickboxing, watered down for continuous rules.

knowing boxing and muay thai, i can see how that guy's stuff (and your's) is slightly different. i enjoy seeing that flavor, but i'm not expecting to see some shaw brothers stuff; with someone attacking the other guy's feet or adopting pointless poses.

one of the reasons i love that dave lacey set of youtube clips so much is you've got these lin wan charp (think sitting on a jab to the body), sow choy - front kick, and roundhouse kick - sow choy combos that show up in the forms, in the apps, on the bag work, and (lo-and-behold) they show up in the fighting.

I think if a boxer sits back and says "that's just flailing" then you're doing something right. :D

[lkfmdc]

i dunno, i wouldn't say his hand combinations or his shadow are exactly typical of boxing- nor his pad work. Footworks pretty flat footed from what I saw.


his pad work (in the clip) was cross/hook/cross, very typical power boxing

yeah, his footwork was flat, I'd actually say it is something he needs to work on





He doesn't put enough of his hips in his kicks to really be stereotypical thai.



again, see above, if he were my fighter, we'd be working on getting his power into his kicks



i mean, i know where you're coming from



I know you do ;)




learning how to use your stuff will having you doing certain things boxing, muay thai, and mma guys do.



you do realize there are TONS of people on here who would (and are) disagree (ing)

[Lucas]

you do realize there are TONS of people on here who would (and are) disagree (ing)


IMO these are exactly the people that should stay out of it.

i come from the vantage point that in martial arts there is one ultimate goal.

to be able to drop an opponent.

anything that can lend you more power to do that is NOT something you should turn your back on.

to me, cma guys that are taking a modern approach to things, mixing it up, adding material that works from external sources....well these guys are the real 'kungfu guys'

these are the guys that live the essence of kungfu.

if you went to shaolin 700 years ago (or any real fighters) or when ever, and you showed them some BJJ and tapped several of the monks out, do you think they would turn you away? tell you your material wasnt good enough for kungfu? or would we be seeing shaolin monks rolling today?

[lkfmdc]

IMO these are exactly the people that should stay out of it.

i come from the vantage point that in martial arts there is one ultimate goal.

to be able to drop an opponent.

anything that can lend you more power to do that is NOT something you should turn your back on.

to me, cma guys that are taking a modern approach to things, mixing it up, adding material that works from external sources....well these guys are the real 'kungfu guys'

these are the guys that live the essence of kungfu.

if you went to shaolin 700 years ago (or any real fighters) or when ever, and you showed them some BJJ and tapped several of the monks out, do you think they would turn you away? tell you your material wasnt good enough for kungfu? or would we be seeing shaolin monks rolling today?

blasphemy!

you will now be promptly ignored by Fu Pow ;)

[Lucas]

blasphemy!

you will now be promptly ignored by Fu Pow ;)

rofl

what ever 'kungfu guy'

[Pork Chop]

his pad work (in the clip) was cross/hook/cross, very typical power boxing



yeah, but his cross is UGLY weird. lol
combo i was originally talking about was 6:03, double hook - cross - uppercut.

Watching it again, he was much better at putting his hip into his round kicks during the actual fights.

One of the combos he went to the well with in those fights was low round house - hook - straight, which i've only seen in san shou, not in any thai gyms.

that punching he does from like 4:50 to 5 doesn't look boxing to me- maybe mma. thought it was pretty consistent with bak mei's theory of overwhelming.

hahah at 5:13 he does gwa-sow-charp haha nice :D
few seconds before that, he follows up spinning backfist with a straight- another thing i don't see in a lot of thai gyms.

Not sure I've ever thrown a knee in a combo in thai without initiating a clinch beforehand either, so that's something a little "atypical".

two guys sparring during the padwork of 6:55 are definitely doin kung fu with that hook-backfist combo. then again, i'm not one of those guys who thinks non-spinning backfists and hammer fists are useless. pankration back in the day loved the hammerfist and if backfists were totally useless in boxing they wouldn't get you a warning or a possible dq. it was more of a padding coverage issue than anything else.

i know it's not like any of the rest of these things really breaks any rules in the other sports, you just don't see it that often. I like the added flavor.

[Pork Chop]

some more food for thought

I kinda like this guy's training mentality.
i would argue that his forms practice actually helps his balance & posture- i mean look at him when he secures mount, he actually transitions into some horse stance looking thing to maintain position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhT7C2TlVs8

also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBC_AHWujys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpJfIIuZ-uE
http://www.youtube.com/user/drunkenunicorn

[IronWeasel]

why don't TCMA guys compete in MMA type events?




For me, the techniques that are representative of my fighting style are considered illegal. Low sweeps (both legs), elbows, throws; knees to a downed opponent.

[BruceSteveRoy]

those are all "legal" moves in an mma fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

some more food for thought

I kinda like this guy's training mentality.
i would argue that his forms practice actually helps his balance & posture- i mean look at him when he secures mount, he actually transitions into some horse stance looking thing to maintain position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhT7C2TlVs8

also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBC_AHWujys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpJfIIuZ-uE
http://www.youtube.com/user/drunkenunicorn


Nice quote at the end...

[TenTigers]

For me, the techniques that are representative of my fighting style are considered illegal. Low sweeps (both legs), elbows, throws; knees to a downed opponent.

so you're saying, you only have those four techniques? Take them out and you have nothing?
C'MON!:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

so you're saying, you only have those four techniques? Take them out and you have nothing?
C'MON!:rolleyes:

Never understood that mentality...how limited can a system be if you can't fight unless you use eye gouges, pixie dust and soiled diapers !

[tjmitch]

If you really want to have at least a few guys who compete in mma, you need to do two things.

1. get a bjj guy to run a program out of your school. You should have no problem finding a good purple belt who is looking for some extra cash.

2. have free sparring after every class, with mma rules. Obvioulsy not full contact, but give the guys who want too, time to use all of their stuff - and no stand ups. If someone wants to get off the floor, it is up to them to make it happen. If you want to be able to use 'kung fu' in a mma fight....you have to work at it.

[lkfmdc]

how many characters is 10 anyway?

[David Jamieson]

who's moderating these boards.

move this fricjing thing where it belongs.
IE onto the mma forum.

tt- grrrrr :mad:


:p

[sunfist]

Look at a what a ring fight is:

Two people are standing there, in an enclosed square devoid of any obstacles. There is no need for immediate offence, so they move, they protect the integrity of their space with jabs and short kicks.

This is not the space in which my kung fu was designed to be used. If i were to be in such a space (which is unlikely), and for the sake of the argument had to respond with a 'traditional' technique, it would be a vital point strike, this is the logical way to use the tighter angles I work with to a least cause a flinch reaction, facilitating entry, maybe do damage. Failing at this, can I stay at that dancing range and try to slog it out with a 'sport' fighter? Sure, but im out of my comfort zone, and unless im much better than him or get lucky I will be minced.

Next time youre talking to someone in a bar or whatever, look at where you are relative to the other person, look at how both your hands are positioned. You can suddenly do all that useless traditional stuff that doesnt work. If they are closing on you, so much the better.

By which of course I mean I am a delusional hippy who plans to never, ever be in a fight. Oh, and Im overweight and wear anime T-shirts. Not to mention the acne...

[IronWeasel]

those are all "legal" moves in an mma fight.



Well, San Da doesn't allow elbows, for one. Various venues restrict sweeps to only one leg or the other. And I hate the large boxing-sized gloves.

Do you have any information about the other mma fights that allow all of those things?



Iron Weasel

[Knifefighter]

This is not the space in which my kung fu was designed to be used. If i were to be in such a space (which is unlikely), and for the sake of the argument had to respond with a 'traditional' technique, it would be a vital point strike, this is the logical way to use the tighter angles I work with to a least cause a flinch reaction, facilitating entry, maybe do damage. Failing at this, can I stay at that dancing range and try to slog it out with a 'sport' fighter? Sure, but im out of my comfort zone, and unless im much better than him or get lucky I will be minced. .

The sign of a good system is one that can be modified for use in any environment. Give a boxer a knife and he will be a scary dude by just employing that with his punching style. I can teach a BJJ guy to take on a stick guy in a matter of minutes. MMA can be used in the ring or in a bar with just a few modifications one direction or the other.

A system that has to rely on vital point strikes and can only be used in certain environments is sorely lacking.

[IronWeasel]

so you're saying, you only have those four techniques? Take them out and you have nothing?
C'MON!:rolleyes:



Yep that's exactly what I said...I only know four techniques. But they are four NINJA techniques! So...I got THAT goin' for me (in caddyshack voice...)

Seriously, tho...I like those particular techniques, and they work well for me.

I suppose I could replace a sweep with a single leg takedown or
replace an elbow with a short back fist or
replace kneeing a downed opponent with a choke

But then some people would say that I'm not 'using my CMA' in the ring. The match would appear more like the BJJ/MMA of the UFC/San Da, etc.

[Knifefighter]

Yep that's exactly what I said...I only know four techniques. But they are four NINJA techniques! So...I got THAT goin' for me (in caddyshack voice...)

Seriously, tho...I like those particular techniques, and they work well for me.

I suppose I could replace a sweep with a single leg takedown or
replace an elbow with a short back fist or
replace kneeing a downed opponent with a choke

But then some people would say that I'm not 'using my CMA' in the ring. The match would appear more like the BJJ/MMA of the UFC/San Da, etc.

Fight MMA if you want to use those techniques.

BTW, how does using knees and elbows make you not look like an MMA fighter?

[bodhitree]

Fight MMA if you want to use those techniques.

BTW, how does using knees and elbows make you not look like an MMA fighter?

his knees and elbows are more deadly

[IronWeasel]

Fight MMA if you want to use those techniques.

M'kay. Would be interested to find a local venue...


BTW, how does using knees and elbows make you not look like an MMA fighter?


I was thinking more of the low leg sweeps...and maybe standing elbow shots.

Not so much 'not look like an MMA fighter', but maybe not look like a San Da fighter...as those are illegal, ie: elbows and knees (to a downed opponent).

I'm just saying that those are probably the best alternative to the strikes that I used as examples.

[IronWeasel]

his knees and elbows are more deadly



Well, they're packed full of Chi. Knee Chi. (Nietzsche?)

[TenTigers]

you can still do those techniques. Who says you have to go into some open competition? You could meet up with like-minded individuals and work from there. If you want to prove something to yourself, or to others,g'head. If you want to train all your tools, you don't have to go that route. Or you can find local smokers. Heck, you can even meet some pros, or former pros and work something out with them as well. There are so may routes. Look at the Dog Bros. But if yu feel you need to only do this in some sort of sanctioned organization's venue, then you have to make adjustments.

[cjurakpt]

pixie dust and soiled diapers !

who told you about our sect's secret weapons?

[sunfist]

The sign of a good system is one that can be modified for use in any environment. Give a boxer a knife and he will be a scary dude by just employing that with his punching style. I can teach a BJJ guy to take on a stick guy in a matter of minutes. MMA can be used in the ring or in a bar with just a few modifications one direction or the other.

A system that has to rely on vital point strikes and can only be used in certain environments is sorely lacking.

A boxer can exdend his knowledge to knife work, but he will still be dominated horribly in that regard by a kali exponent. Likewise a BJJ guy will be dominated in a stickfight, unless he is able to create his ideal range. As I stated above, the very nature of sport fighting IMHO negates TCMAs ideal range.

And I said that in such an environment it will be inferior to the styles who specialise in that way of fighting. Thats very different to saying it cant be used period, or that it relies upon vital point strikes. Lacking? certainly. But no more or less than any other style you care to mention, if you ask me.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The strength of MMA is in that it exposes you to so many fighting tempers and styles, and pairs you up with people who have different strengths. The weakness in TCMA (if you don't look around outside of your school), is that you only ever practice or expect to counter/encounter all the techniques in your arsenal, delivered with your particular emphasis and principles, etc. In effect, you fight clones of yourself.

The reason the MMA fighter would dominate, is that he won't expect as much coming in, because he knows a punch can come in at every angle, and doesn't have to protect a centerline for the sake of the centerline. A kick can be used multitudes of ways, and doesn't always use the same striking surface. But as soon as you're engaged, he can generally predict your temper, striking method, and weakness, b/c he's exposed to so many stylisms, he has to be able to do this in order to keep up to tempo in his art.

The good thing about a quality TCMA guy is he knows his body better, and generally has no doubt as to what to do in certain situations, and can execute quickly and effectively. The bad thing about a quality TCMA guy, is if you get him out of his comfort zone (ground, certain ranges, etc.), he's treading unknown waters and pretty much is making it up as he goes along b/c he's so stuck in his preconceived notions as to what it is he should be doing. He'll wind up stumbling over himself.

[RonH]

One of the hallmarks of a long lasting style is its adaptability 'on the fly' when the unknown does happen upon the fighter. If the underlying principles of any attack can be countered effectively, regardless of whether you have seen a specific attack before or not.

[David Jamieson]

how about because mma events aren't anything more than mma events.

ie: why would you play badminton at a volleyball tournament?

mma is what it is and it ain't kungfu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

ie: why would you play badminton at a volleyball tournament?


Because badminton is only a 7 on the gay scale.

Volleyball is like a 9.

Or didn't you see Top Gun?

[Shaolin Wookie]

One of the hallmarks of a long lasting style is its adaptability 'on the fly' when the unknown does happen upon the fighter. If the underlying principles of any attack can be countered effectively, regardless of whether you have seen a specific attack before or not.

But the principles of kungfu single out certain attacks as inefficient, and therefore cut them out of usage. Strangely enough, I see many of these in regular usage during MMA bouts. If you cut them out of usage, you won't see them coming at you from your classmates.

Because a technique doesn't seem to fit in with a system or style, it doesn't make it inefficient. It means that it doesn't fit in. CMA guys say...the method of power generation is weak. You really want to do such and such, change the angle, etc. But if you don't have that kind of freedom of waist and leg motion, you've got to be able to pack power in your punch with good ol' Irish grit and sinew. But really, all strikes should fit into every system, because you're fighting.

That is, if you want to do more than just dance....

[David Jamieson]

top gun was a totally gay movie. I mean on a scale of 1-10 top gun = 11 on the gay scale.

[Vajramusti]

"mma is what it is and it ain't kungfu."
-------------------------------------------------------
Fer sure

joy chaudhuri

[Knifefighter]

mma is what it is and it ain't kungfu.

MMA is not BJJ, wrestling, or Muay Thai either... doesn't stop them from being used efficiently in that enviroment, though.

MMA may not be kung fu, but it allows it to be used.

[RonH]

Because badminton is only a 7 on the gay scale.
Volleyball is like a 9.
Or didn't you see Top Gun?

Seeing chicks in bikinis and butt shorts makes volleyball games worth watching. If you like dudes, there's the well toned and buff guys with their shirts off.


But the principles of kungfu single out certain attacks as inefficient, and therefore cut them out of usage.

I would say possibly some styles, but not all.


Because a technique doesn't seem to fit in with a system or style, it doesn't make it inefficient. It means that it doesn't fit in. CMA guys say...the method of power generation is weak.[quote]

As an internalist, I'd say all purely external arts don't have as much power as they could have, to be more accurate and specific about the weakness.

[quote]You really want to do such and such, change the angle, etc. But if you don't have that kind of freedom of waist and leg motion, you've got to be able to pack power in your punch with good ol' Irish grit and sinew.

There are many places that you can get power from that don't use legs or the waist. It won't be as powerful a strike, but you don't always need brick and mortar bursting power to get a one up on the other guy. Striking with the shoulder or a head butt are good options.


But really, all strikes should fit into every system, because you're fighting.

Exactly. If you can't do it, there's something wrong. It may not be something that the student does and it wouldn't necessarily mean that that student is an idiot. 'Doing something wrong', in the sense I'm using it, is free of any condescension and mockery. If you grab one item off a table by accident, as you pass by and you really meant to grab what was next to it, that doesn't mean you're an idiot.


That is, if you want to do more than just dance....

True, but I've found that if you really need to conserve your energy, as you deflect multiple attacks in quick succession, you should treat the fighting as mostly a dance. It's less about ending the fight then and there (especially when attacked by a mob) and more about redirecting/neutralizing incoming attacks with very little effort on your part. It sometimes comes off as the martial art version of ballet. Just a tiny tiny brush or a very light slap on the incoming limb to move it the inch or less to get it out of the path that it's in, which is the one that's gonna make contact with you.

After that, it's a multitasking approach involving deflections with your arms and upper body, while you do femoral kicks and knee strikes/ letting gravity pull your body down, as you step on the side of the knee and press inward/outward a little.

[David Jamieson]

MMA is not BJJ, wrestling, or Muay Thai either... doesn't stop them from being used efficiently in that enviroment, though.

MMA may not be kung fu, but it allows it to be used.

who's mma? please define what mma is beyond mixed martial arts?

if i study tkd and wrestling, I am a mma-ist

If I study karate and boxing I am an mmaist.

by definition of the very term.

[Knifefighter]

True, but I've found that if you really need to conserve your energy, as you deflect multiple attacks in quick succession, you should treat the fighting as mostly a dance. It's less about ending the fight then and there (especially when attacked by a mob) and more about redirecting/neutralizing incoming attacks with very little effort on your part. It sometimes comes off as the martial art version of ballet. Just a tiny tiny brush or a very light slap on the incoming limb to move it the inch or less to get it out of the path that it's in, which is the one that's gonna make contact with you.

After that, it's a multitasking approach involving deflections with your arms and upper body, while you do femoral kicks and knee strikes/ letting gravity pull your body down, as you step on the side of the knee and press inward/outward a little.

LOL... Ron, you should post of clip of you doing this full contact against resisting opponents.

[Knifefighter]

who's mma? please define what mma is beyond mixed martial arts?

if i study tkd and wrestling, I am a mma-ist

If I study karate and boxing I am an mmaist.

by definition of the very term.

I was speaking of MMA venues. This thread was about CMA being used in MMA competitions, I believe.

MMA is first and formost a competitive venue where any type of martial art can be used.

With the popularity of MMA competitions, "MMA training" has become a buzzword to mean a variety of things.

As a label, "MMA event" is relatively useful.

"MMA training" is less useful as a label.

[David Jamieson]

I was speaking of MMA venues. This thread was about CMA being used in MMA competitions, I believe.

then you're not talking about mma, you're talking about venues. which do not define what mma is.

[Shaolin Wookie]

then you're not talking about mma, you're talking about venues. which do not define what mma is.

Come on DJ, you know what he's talking about......:D

[RonH]

Relying on only the 'tried and true' of fighting?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Doing whatever it takes to win, with whatever you can make work.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Or, in other words:

Not this
l
l
l
V


as you deflect multiple attacks in quick succession, you should treat the fighting as mostly a dance. It's less about ending the fight then and there... It sometimes comes off as the martial art version of ballet. Just a tiny tiny brush or a very light slap on the incoming limb to move it the inch or less to get it out of the path that it's in, which is the one that's gonna make contact with you..

[RonH]

Or, in other words:

Not this
l
l
l
V

Okay, so you advocate huge, needlessly spent energy consuming moves when fighting off multiple attackers (and I don't mean if you've got the opportunity to run). You also advocate you need to treat each incoming limb, as if it was a wrecking ball because there's just no way you could ever knock off course an incoming limb or stick or bo or sword or nunchuck or halberd etc. etc. with just a tiny bit of effort because there's just no need to move it just a tiny bit off course, so it doesn't hit you. You're advocating knocking that sucker, like line drive out to center field and going into the stands where there's no way the outfield guys could even hope to catch that thing, unless they've got a jet pack.

Sure, I'd love to see that done by any external artist for any extended period of time where they have no rest between each incoming attack. You've got a better chance of doing that if you're a Navy Seal than a lot of martial artists or MMA people.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do as much damage as you can, while you can. The thing about defense is, no matter how good you are, you're going to get hit sooner or later. And if you're fending off multiple attackers, if you get hit once, it's game over. Especially if you're playing a game of inches. One of the benefits of external MA is that you have good conditioning, b/c it's part of your training, and you get used to taking hits, so you can bear them better. And if you really rock your blocks with your forearms, you can damage their arms with your defense, and add that element of offense to your defensive maneuvers.

Anything is better than remaining the calm center of your own universe, because it's not your universe.

Better by far to divide and conquer, if you have no choice. I mean viciously. Barrel into one, use everything, elbow, knee, kick, bite, spit, punch, grab, choke, rake, claw, and destroy. Then use that one as a shield. Go for the weakest one, so long as he's not the expendable guy in the group. Me, I'm going for the skinny one, b/c I know I can bowl him over no prob with a shoulder tackle, then stomp on him and lessen the odds. It is, in fact, end the fight as quick as possible.

[Knifefighter]

Sure, I'd love to see that done by any external artist for any extended period of time where they have no rest between each incoming attack. You've got a better chance of doing that if you're a Navy Seal than a lot of martial artists or MMA people.

Ron- what I'd love to see is you doing any of the things you advocate against a halfway skilled, resisting opponent. Please post a clip or two.

[xcakid]

People train martial arts for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the TMA communities attract people whose reasons do not include fighting competatively or to fight competatively in an MMA venue?


That is why I train. I train for health reasons. I like the internal aspects of it. I like the philosiphy. I like the history. I like the physical fitness gained from it as well as the flexibility that will help me in my later years.

Although I must admit, I do compete. I do it to test myself more so than trying to prove I can beat the crap out of someone. I know I can beat the crap out of someone. I can use my AR15 and take out someone from 300yds. Can an MMA guy defend against that? Can anyone from any other style? Training for ring fighting is fine, but you are confined in a predictable conventional arena. It may give you an edge, but you will not be able to COMPLETELY defend against the unpredictability of the streets. Such as what happened during the VA sniper incident. Columbine. Rodney King riots in L.A. Various armed assualts that goes on in major cities. Carjackings.

I have said before, MA have not evolved with the times. The weapons remained the same. Arms bars and chokes are fine, but what if the guy you are choking out has a friend stabbing you in the back? Or after you choke him out, will come back later and shoot you when you are not looking. Better yet have 10 of his buddies jump ya. Not gonna happen? How can you guarantee that?