Not another MMA vs. CMA thread!!!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I have heard many CMA and TMA folks as a whole comment on the striking ability of MMA'ers. Such statements as, " his kicks suck", or "that is just sloppy boxing". I do not agree with this, but I do feel much more emphasis in put on grappling than striking when it comes to MMA as a whole. Someone who fights under MMA rules must be well versed in striking and grappling, so it will be rare to get a fighter who is completely equal in both. Going back to the kick issue, I recently had a discussion with a fellow KF'er who wanted to know why kicks such as hook, side thrust, spinning, and other such kicks are not prominent in MMA. My answer to this was that most of those kicks, unless you are very good, leave you open for takedowns. That doesn't mean they cannot be done. Cung Le is the example we all seem to use, but what about Team Canada, George St. Pierre and David Louiseau, both utilize kicks not often seen in MMA. I think we will see a more diverse striking game from the future MMA stars. Thoughts and comments.

[monji112000]

to be a competitor in MMA you must be well rounded, you don't need to master anything... just a jack of all trades.

Kicking isn't as easy as punching. It takes more timing, and distance.

what about defense? how many fights do you have two people slugging it out? sure it looks great and its fun to watch but that strategy isn't smart. In my humble opinion is better to master one area and be ok at the rest. honesty who has the time/money/health to master everything?

punch is easy and the basic boxer punches are simple to learn.
You can take 5 minutes and learn them, then just practice them over and over again. Thats the main reason why you don't see much else in MMA/sport fighting any other style of punching just takes longer to learn/master. anyway if it looks too different from the basic boxing mechanics... then its probably not realistic.
JMO

[sanjuro_ronin]

You will never see "typical" striking in a MMA environment because the ruleset which allows for grappling makes the "ideal" delivery platforms for "textbook" kicks and strikes is NOT ideal when grappling is involved.

That said, as better strikers come into the game, as is the case with GSP for example, and learn to strike within the context of MMA then you will see the "better looking" stuff gradually become more standard.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

to be a competitor in MMA you must be well rounded, you don't need to master anything... just a jack of all trades.

Kicking isn't as easy as punching. It takes more timing, and distance.

what about defense? how many fights do you have two people slugging it out? sure it looks great and its fun to watch but that strategy isn't smart. In my humble opinion is better to master one area and be ok at the rest. honesty who has the time/money/health to master everything?

punch is easy and the basic boxer punches are simple to learn.
You can take 5 minutes and learn them, then just practice them over and over again. Thats the main reason why you don't see much else in MMA/sport fighting any other style of punching just takes longer to learn/master. anyway if it looks too different from the basic boxing mechanics... then its probably not realistic.
JMO


What other style of punching is there? Also, while I agree punching is easier to learn than kicking, developing knockout power and timing with punches certainly takes time and practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What other style of punching is there? Also, while I agree punching is easier to learn than kicking, developing knockout power and timing with punches certainly takes time and practice.

It's much harder to be a knock out artist than to be a submission specialist.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It's much harder to be a knock out artist than to be a submission specialist.

Very true, it is even harder to develop knockout kicks, unless your a big a** Croation who wears funky shorts:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very true, it is even harder to develop knockout kicks, unless your a big a** Croation who wears funky shorts:p

Shorts that highlight sublime gluteus and thighs !

:eek:

[Fu-Pow]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is....is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them. Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not one WAY to fight.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting....there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

I'm out.

FP

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mixing MA is nothing new, sure it used to be called cross-training before, but one man's tomato and all that.

MMA is a ruleset as it applies to sport competition, it is a "style" as it applies to how one trains, it is an approach as it applies to what one trains for.

MMA is a generic name, like Karate or jujutsu are generic names, like kung fu is a generic name.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is....is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them. Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not one WAY to fight.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting....there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

I'm out.

FP

Thanks for that astounding nugget of knowledge. Every question raised has now been answered. Halleluia!!!:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I am curious as to what experience George St. Pierre has in kicking styles. On his training episodes before the Matt Hughes fight it showed him boxing with pros at a local boxing gym. But does he train kickboxing, Muay Thai, or some other style with prominent kicks. Same for David Louiseau. Watching the Cung Le vs. Tony Frykland fight was like watching a showcase of kicking ability.

[MasterKiller]

I'm pretty sure David Louiseau has a TKD background.

[sanjuro_ronin]

GSP was kyokushin I believe.

[Yao Sing]

I'm going to catch hell for this but I think UFC will bring about more 'extravagent' moves because of the show component.

I see it heading in the direction of WWE. Dana wants a good show, the general public wants a good show. Nobody wants to see a fight like Koschek v Sanchez.

I think it can't be helped, just like MMA schools will eventually turn into McDojos (and McDojos turn into MMA schools). It's happening already.

Flame on. ;)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I don't see it becoming fixed or fake, but I do see a push for more stand up. Simply because it is more exciting to watch for the general public. Most people who watch the UFC and are not martial artists themselves do not want to see a fight go to the ground, they would rather see a slugfest. Personally I would like to see a large venue like K1 get popular again and highlight good kickboxing. Even a sister branch of the UFC that had kickboxing venues.

[Yao Sing]

Not fixed or fake but more flamboyant characters, playing up different training methods and backgrounds.

I'm sure sooner or later someone claiming kung fu, real or not, will come along and play up that angle. That way they can bank on the MMA vs CMA intrests.

It is, after all, entertainment. And it's the entertainment element that will eventually overshadow the realistic fighting element.

[David Jamieson]

dang!

i guess the starter of this thread doesn't know about the MMA forum in here that is expressly for keeping these threads in context.

chrisakes

[Knifefighter]

MMA is simply using any type of martial art with which to fight. It used to be known as NHB, but with the advent of multiple rule sets, it needed to be called something else.

The reason you will never see the level of striking in MMA that you will in a specialized striking sport is because of the grappling component. Grappling is hugely important and changes everything in terms of the striking component.

Striking will not look the same when grappling is involved because of the added component of having to worry about getting taken down or tied up in a clinch.

Additionally, a grappler will easily take out a pure striker who has no grappling background. That means it is mandatory for everyone in MMA to train grappling, essentially diluting the striking aspect because of the limited time that can be developed to developing and maintaining striking skills.


I have heard many CMA and TMA folks as a whole comment on the striking ability of MMA'ers. Such statements as, " his kicks suck", or "that is just sloppy boxing".

Which is kind of funny considering the level of striking skills of most CMA practitioners.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

dang!

i guess the starter of this thread doesn't know about the MMA forum in here that is expressly for keeping these threads in context.

chrisakes

I agree, that idiot should be tarred and feathered and..........wait a minute:eek:

[lkfmdc]

this video answers the questions of MMA vs TMA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8405100700131982483&q=martial+arts+disasters&total=26&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

now, that was some of the funniest stuff i've seen.. point and match goes to Coach Ross.. i nearly peed myself i was laughing so hard..

Thanks.. that made my day..

[Iron_Eagle_76]

this video answers the questions of MMA vs TMA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8405100700131982483&q=martial+arts+disasters&total=26&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I'm pretty sure I saw Fu-Pow on that video somewhere.:D

[Shaolinlueb]

some of the guys are sloppy. but then there are others who have really good technique. its GSP, Cro Cop, Randy C, Rampage Jackson are too name a few who have good technique.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

some of the guys are sloppy. but then there are others who have really good technique. its GSP, Cro Cop, Randy C, Rampage Jackson are too name a few who have good technique.

GSP and Cro Cop have excellent kicks. Randy and Rampage are more boxing mixed with their grappling rather than kickboxing, although I have seen Rampage throw a few kicks. I remember seeing Randy throw one kick, was not good. But again, not his fortay and his boxing and wrestling more than make up for that.

[monji112000]

What other style of punching is there? Also, while I agree punching is easier to learn than kicking, developing knockout power and timing with punches certainly takes time and practice.
really?
well have you even looked at how a boxer throws a jab,cross,hook,hay maker,body shot,uppercut?

karate/TCMA style cross vrs. a sanda/MT/ect..
1) how its setup
2) how you generate power, relevance of the heel being lifted or pushing off the heel.
3) the amount of turning and the distribution of body weight.

anyone can learn the basic body mechanics, being able to react, setup, apply punching isn't as easy as it sounds. (thats why everyone isn't challenging Lenox.)


this video answers the questions of MMA vs TMA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
:D too funny I love the ending with LT.

[sunfist]

Firstly, when MMA began, nobody had any real conception of how to best use the format. Slowly we have evolved to what is the 'modern' MMA game, a comprehensive set of skills that covers all the ranges. Furthermore, we are passing the stage where this is an innovation and it is becoming standard. This means that being the more complete competitor is ceasing to be the edge it used to be, since few people are going to be caught sleeping at any range anymore. It also means that it will be not only possible, but essential, for fighters to take larger 'risks' in terms of technique.

As for the continuing side debate, the question is not wether or not traditional kung fu works, it does. People use it to successfully defend themselves all the time, and there are plenty of TCMAists that are just plain scary.

The debate is how well does it work. Is it better or worse than X or Y. What is the ratio of hippies to people who can actually throw down. Have fun trying to figure those out:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

really?
well have you even looked at how a boxer throws a jab,cross,hook,hay maker,body shot,uppercut?

karate/TCMA style cross vrs. a sanda/MT/ect..
1) how its setup
2) how you generate power, relevance of the heel being lifted or pushing off the heel.
3) the amount of turning and the distribution of body weight.

anyone can learn the basic body mechanics, being able to react, setup, apply punching isn't as easy as it sounds. (thats why everyone isn't challenging Lenox.)
.

Look at the White Ape system. There is prominent usage of the jade ring stance. It generates power just the same as a boxer, and keeps the back heel raised, and at least in my school, utilizes uppercuts, body shots, and jabs. The hook has its variation in there, too. I only bring it up, because it's the stance I keep as my ready stance. The difference is in how low you keep your weight, and the nearly perpindicular angle of the front foot with regard to the back.