Expertise

[Fu-Pow]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is....is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them (there are supposedly over 300 documented styles of kung fu). Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not ONE WAY to fight or ONE APPROACH to fighting.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting....there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

That being said there are 3 foundations to all REAL martial arts training (whether MMA, Kung Fu or whatever):

Training Attributes, Practicing Skills and Competition.

Those 3 containers leave alot of room for what you will fill them with.

I'm out.

FP

[sanjuro_ronin]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is....is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them (there are supposedly over 300 documented styles of kung fu). Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not ONE WAY to fight or ONE APPROACH to fighting.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting....there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

That being said there are 3 foundations to all REAL martial arts training (whether MMA, Kung Fu or whatever):

Training Attributes, Practicing Skills and Competition.

Those 3 containers leave alot of room for what you will fill them with.

I'm out.

FP

I wouldn't put competition there, testing yes, competition no.

[Fu-Pow]

I wouldn't put competition there, testing yes, competition no.

If by testing you mean 'competitive drills' then we are on the same page.

FP

[MasterKiller]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Most of the MMA posters here have experience in a TMA of one form or another. But hardly any of the kung fu posters have any MMA training. Hence, the disconnect.

[Fu-Pow]

I wouldn't put competition there, testing yes, competition no.

If by testing you mean 'competitive drills' then we are on the same page. Basically, something that gives you feedback on what you are doing right and wrong.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Most of the MMA posters here have experience in a TMA of one form or another. But hardly any of the kung fu posters have any MMA training. Hence, the disconnect.

But again, the definition problem, what is MMA?

FP

[MasterKiller]

But again, the definition problem, what is MMA?

FP

I would say it's a competition rule-set.

You can train any style to fit the competition format, which is why you typically have so many different sport styles represented--BJJ, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Shan Shou, Sambo, Judo etc...

[mantis7]

I think he means, he is gonna try to punch you in the face and if you don't block it, then you know if your technique works.

and MMA, if you are looking for a definition, is a rule set, depending on the organization, a systematic approach of combining combat schools of thought which then becomes stylistic based upon diffrent camp's approaches.

There are several main stay systems that are represented in MMA camps. THe majority of them are Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, Bjj, wrestling, Sambo, and I sure other styles to a lesser degree.

Now depending on the camps paticular desires they will mix and match the theories and techniques of these systems accoriding to their own personal attributes.

They will then train towards the venues ruleset. Some venues allow knees to a downed opponent where as others do not. If they are allowed to use the point of the elbow some will train to use that. It is all very dependant on the venuse but that is not to say that despite the rule set they won't train these techniques.

Fu pow

By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

They can be critiqued based upon their kicking, throwing, striking, submissions, defense skill sets reguardless of codification and being wrapped in a nice little bow.


allows them also to be "experts" on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

A person who practices the skill sets of kicking, striking, grappling, submission, ect, ect would be more prepared to speak on fighting with a bit of expertise compared to ap erson who only does kicking. Just as a person who does martial arts as a non-fighter is ill prepared to speak on the reality of fighting versus a in-ring fighter.



The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

There are only so many ways that you can strike, kick, punch and some are successful while others are down right useless. The best way to determine this is in a full on scenario. If you say your "frog punch" can break a rib or knock a man out but you are unable to produce the desired outcome during a sparring session then the technique doesn't work.

Those who pressure test, for a lack of a better term, are definately more in the know about the effects of a effective blows and techniques.

cliff notes

MMA is

A rule set because each venue has varying rules

A style because each camp will have a specialty area and add in what they need to become combat ready per their view of what is needed. example, Muay Thai fighter will add grappling to keep from going to the ground and being able to defend once they are taken to the ground. A Bjj fighter will add better striking or striking defense to avoid getting KTFO.

An approach because it systematically defines what works and what does not work in a full contact scenario and discards that which is ineffective.

Cheers

[AmanuJRY]

I think your looking for separate definitions for MMA as a 'venue' or ruleset and MMA as a method of training MA.

MMA can't be a 'style' as it is a mixture of styles, but there are organizations (i.e. JKD, Kajukembo, etc.) that use the method of integrating techniques from several 'styles'.

MMA as a 'venue' and MMA as a 'method' are both correct when used in their proper context.;)

[Three Harmonies]

Mixed martial arts are not new to anyone. Think of the number of CMA that were training more than one system (Cheng Ting Hua / Yin Fu / Sun Lu Tang / Pu En Fu are just a few that come to mind!). Now a days it has a title "MMA," but that is all it is. Look at the Filipino martial systems and almost everyone that was anyone trained in a number of different families or systems that specialize in certain concepts or aspects of combat.

As for the comment about MMA vs. TCMA people making comments......
1) I would not use anything that is said on this board as a standard for anything. Too many idiots here that have no clue, and the admin's have zero initiative to ban the troll's so they know they have a place here to act like idiots.

2) Not sure what you have been reading bro, but the overwhleming majority of comments I read on this board (and others) is totally the opposite of what you state. It is usually the CMA or TMA that is running their mouth about how ineffective MMA/BJJ is, not the other way around.

3) Personally I do not make comments about something I am ignorant about. "Experience" is not a 2 hour intro course on BJJ. Spend some time actually immersing oneself into the art as a whole and then you can speak more intelligently and with some conviction.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Becca]

3) Personally I do not make comments about something I am ignorant about. "Experience" is not a 2 hour intro course on BJJ. Spend some time actually immersing oneself into the art as a whole and then you can speak more intelligently and with some conviction.

Nope, that only works if you are a TCMAer who drops kung fu as anything but a punch line. I thought this sounded like a good point. So I went out and found a very good, successful submission wrestler/coach to train under. I found nothing to support the claim that kung fu, when taught by a very skilled teacher, cannot hold it's own with so called "pure" MMaers. Now the suspision is that I'm either trolling or my coach sucks. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Nope, that only works if you are a TCMAer who drops kung fu as anything but a punch line. I thought this sounded like a good point. So I went out and found a very good, successful submission wrestler/coach to train under. I found nothing to support the claim that kung fu, when taught by a very skilled teacher, cannot hold it's own with so called "pure" MMaers. Now the suspision is that I'm either trolling or my coach sucks. :rolleyes:



I'm still waiting for you to stop by my friend's BJJ school to demonstrate your kung fu and non-stoppable takedowns. He's only about 10 or 15 minutes from you. Until then, I'm going with the troll.

[Becca]

I'm still waiting for you to stop by my friend's BJJ school to demonstrate your kung fu and non-stoppable takedowns. He's only about 10 or 15 minutes from you. Until then, I'm going with the troll.
LOL! That was to have been between you and me. You changed it to "your buddy". And no thank-you. I understand his school is carpeted; I have no desire to roll on carpet. Some park or other, sure. Neutral ground (non-carpeted)? Sure.

[Knifefighter]

LOL! That was to have been between you and me. You changed it to "your buddy". And no thank-you. I understand his school is carpeted; I have no desire to roll on carpet. Some park or other, sure. Neutral ground (non-carpeted)? Sure.

Carpeted? Hardly... Zingano BJJ- fully equiped BJJ facility. You will not find a single BJJ school without mats. Anyone who had ever rolled with BJJ people (or any grapplers for that matter) would know that you don't train grappling on carpets.

Seeing as how I'm not able to come out to Colorado this summer, that would be kind of hard to do (of course, you already knew that). What would be easy to do would be for you to drive 10 minutes, stop in and work takedowns and ground work with them. But of course that would expose you as the liar you are.

[yenhoi]

:eek::eek::eek:

[TenTigers]

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?

[Fu-Pow]

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?

I think that's where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don't compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP

[Vash]

I think that's where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don't compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP

From my perspective, one trains in mixed martial arts when:

1. Specific training is had for each range of one-on-one physical violence (striking, standing grappling/throwing, ground work)

2. Training time is devoted to the free-flow of non-cooperative sparring between all ranges of physical violence

3. Partner-Resistant training composes the majority of training time

. . .

Me, I love mixed martial arts, as a venue (UFC, Pride, Bodog, King of the Cage, etc) and as a training paradigm (what better way to make the techniques of our TMA work). At the end of the day, though, I'm still going to be a karate man that loves training, whatever range I'm in.

[Liddel]

Me, I love mixed martial arts, as a venue (UFC, Pride, Bodog, King of the Cage, etc) and as a training paradigm (what better way to make the techniques of our TMA work).

Amen Bruva.

[MasterKiller]

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?
If he trains at a Muay Thai class, and a BJJ class, and Boxing class, then he is training Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing. If he has one class that trains elements of all of these, he is training MMA.


I think that's where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don't compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP

MMA clubs probably focus more on conditioning and sport-specific techniques and strategies than your average JKD club. For example, we spend a lot of time just learning how to use a cage/ring to your advantage.

Also, like Vash said, there is a tremendous amount of partner work, at various levels of intensity.

Cross training in multiple styles is MMA as long as those styles cover striking range, clinching range, and grappling range.

You don't have to study BJJ. There are other alternatives such as Sambo, freestyle wrestling, etc...

Boxing + Savate + CLF does not = MMA.

CLF + Freestyle wrestling = MMA.

[Fu-Pow]

If he trains at a Muay Thai class, and a BJJ class, and Boxing class, then he is training Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing. If he has one class that trains elements of all of these, he is training MMA.





Cross training in multiple styles is MMA as long as those styles cover striking range, clinching range, and grappling range.

Well these to statements seem to contradict each other but I think what you are getting at is that MMA is defined by the 3 ranges mentioned.

Ok, so this is where I'm going with this:

If we take the Sonnon training paradigm of Training Attributes, Practicing SKills and Competition as valid (and I haven't heard anything yet to the contrary and then you take the 3 ranges of stand up, clinch and ground then you are going to basically have to make training your fulltime job.

Is this really tenable for your average Joe? Wouldn't they be better learning one of those ranges really well, rather than learn the basics of all of them?

FP



You don't have to study BJJ. There are other alternatives such as Sambo, freestyle wrestling, etc...

Boxing + Savate + CLF does not = MMA.

CLF + Freestyle wrestling = MMA.[/QUOTE]

[MasterKiller]

Is this really tenable for your average Joe? Wouldn't they be better learning one of those ranges really well, rather than learn the basics of all of them?

My club trains 3 days a week, for 1.5 hours each class.
I manage the time so we are always working, and I have the curriculum set up so we rotate lessons between grappling, clinching, throwing, and striking. I'm also lucky in that I have a couple of guys to help me teach that have a lot more experience with wrestling and grappling than I do.

The lesson for the day is always focused..neck tie escapes, or throws from the clinch, or specific combinations to set up leg kicks. So we can work three or four related things with various levels of intensity, then we pressure test those moves sparring/rolling. For example, if the class was on kickboxing combinations, we do San Shou sparring that night. If the class was on shoots and takedowns, we might just do rounds trying to take each down at full intensity.

If you have problems with people standing around talking, or just doing something a couple of times and then wanting to move on, you should use a round timer (like gymboss.com) and make everyone work until the round ends. ROund 1 is jab cross combo, round 2 is jab, lead hook, right leg kick, etc...

We get a lot accomplished on those 3 days, and I am in the best shape I've ever been in. I would wager most of my students with 6 months of training could beat the average TMA student with 2 years of training (one of my students beat two of my sihings pretty soundly when he had just 1 year under me).

3 days of training hard in class (I am literally soaking wet after class) + a little extra work at home (kettlebells, skipping rope, and kung fu forms) is about all I can squeeze into my schedule. But it works well for me and my students get better every day.

Besides, Kung Fu has always been a "jack of all trades" style. Ti Da Shuai Na, bro.

[sunfist]

Is this really tenable for your average Joe? Wouldn't they be better learning one of those ranges really well, rather than learn the basics of all of them?


While you could argue just boxing or whatever would develop basic self defence capability faster, MMA will still see you becoming capable far more quickly than the TCMA.

[RonH]

While you could argue just boxing or whatever would develop basic self defence capability faster, MMA will still see you becoming capable far more quickly than the TCMA.

I've been seeing this for some time. More capable faster. Just how is it that it's being defined by people? You have to admit that there are probably some defintions that are more damaging to the body, shortening the 'lifespan' of how long you're a capable fighter.

[lkfmdc]

that are more damaging to the body, shortening the 'lifespan' of how long you're a capable fighter.

Ron, you need to contact Helio Gracie immediately and let him know that all that hard training is gonna keep him from being active later in life :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

I've been seeing this for some time. More capable faster. Just how is it that it's being defined by people? You have to admit that there are probably some defintions that are more damaging to the body, shortening the 'lifespan' of how long you're a capable fighter.

Nope... a retired 65 year old beat up and hobbled former professional Muay Thai fighter will still beat the crap out of 99% of all of the people doing "safe" training.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a definition of MMA: When you're put in front of your opponent, you do whatever it takes to win, within the established ruleset, or anything goes if there is no ruleset, based on your strengths and weaknesses. For instance, if you were up against a guy who KO'd 70 opponents, and had only lost 10 matches, all by submission, you'd probably go for the submission, because you don't want to take your chances with the KO's. You might not be a great submission artist, but you're definately not up to his striking ability, or willing to test it. If he's better on the ground than you, they ditch that if you can, and stand back up. Adapt.

Now, a kungfu guy has no choice, and he has to beat the punches, which is a hard task.

I respect MMA for that, although I can't afford to train it, don't have the time, and don't really have the desire to do so right now. But hey, who knows what I'll think in a couple of years?

[unkokusai]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.



Why do folks feel the need to whine about this kind of thing? Say what you have to say already! If what you say is BS, is unsupported, or runs contrary to what a lot of people with a lot of experience have found to be true, then they will let you know and you will just have to defend your comments if you can. Kind of like a...what do they call it? ah, yes a 'discussion.'

[unkokusai]

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?



He's sure missing something!

[Shaolin Wookie]

He's sure missing something!

At first I thought you were implying Ten Tigers was dim. But then I'm thinking....here's an example of a guy doing boxing, muay thai, and BJJ, all two-man competitive sports, and he's not competing? Then what is he doing? He would be missing something.....

The point.

But maybe you think Ten Tigers is dim....I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, or take them out....:D

[unkokusai]

Both interpretations work.


:cool:

[DPL]

So here's Becca, on this thread, a few days ago:


Nope, that only works if you are a TCMAer who drops kung fu as anything but a punch line. I thought this sounded like a good point. So I went out and found a very good, successful submission wrestler/coach to train under. I found nothing to support the claim that kung fu, when taught by a very skilled teacher, cannot hold it's own with so called "pure" MMaers. Now the suspision is that I'm either trolling or my coach sucks. :rolleyes:

And here's Becca, a couple of weeks ago, trying to educate me on how to learn to defend the takedown:


Yep. There's an MMA group here in Commerce City I used to roll with. Almost all of them have a large take down repertoire. Then I was challenged to go find a "true grappler" and try my stuff. That's when I found out what a good grappler was actually like.

Submission grappling ain't like that stuff you see or did in high school. Those guys are like surgons; within a few minutes of rolling with you they will pin point your weak spot and use it to get you to the ground. You will never truelly get good at defending them because they don't just look for a take down. They have absolutly no problem suckering you into doing what they need you to do to get you into a bad spot. You want to be able to defend agains them? You gotta get at least a bit of familiarization with what they are looking for from their perspective.

You don't have to become a grappler; I wasn't looking to become a grappler. I was looking to learn what a grappler looks for. I assumed he'd want to see me roll first them start working with me on what was week about my defence. He didn't; he asked me how my takedowns were, which I was good at and which I wasn't. How were my sprawls? How good was I at moving around on the mat off my feet? It took him about 30 seconds to figure out I was one of those traditionalists looking for the maigic bullet.

It took me about 1 minute of working with him to realize that there isn't one. A good grappler can use any portion of your body, every ripple of momentum comming from your body, to make you do what he/she needs you to do for them to get you to the ground. There's just no way to get better than mediocre at defending a take down untill you understand why they are trying to manuver you. You need to see the take down from their perspective to really get it, or sooner or later, you are going to end up on your belly, tangled in a not that would make a sailor proud. And have no idea how you got there.

Is it just me...?

[Knifefighter]

So here's Becca, on this thread, a few days ago:



And here's Becca, a couple of weeks ago, trying to educate me on how to learn to defend the takedown:



Is it just me...?

No, it's not just you. Before that, she was claiming that she coudn't be taken down at all. In addition to that, she thinks submission grapplers are the ones with the fantastic takedowns. Basically, she is just pulling stuff out of her a$$ and doesn't have clue about any of it.

[Merryprankster]

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Actually, I don't feel qualified to comment on Kung Fu, per se. I would never in my life dream of telling you how to do your forms.

I do feel qualified to comment on what works and what doesn't, as I have over 12 years of experience in trying to get non-compliant people to do what *I* want - especially if it concerns grappling. When someone spouts bull****, I'll call them on it.

Unfortunately for many CMA types, bull**** springs forth in a veritable torrent quite often.

At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with people training what they train it; I have a problem with misrepresentation and delusion - ie, "I train for the street, for a no rules situation!"

Ummm.... no you don't. All training has rules. Ergo, you can't be training for a no rules situation. It's all simulations, where we do the best we can. There is a reason, for instance, that veteran units are highly prized...

Similarly, I do a sport. I suffer no illusions as to what that gives me: a useable skill set in case of emergency. It does NOT turn me into a fighter, or a bodyguard or a self defense expert, any more than being an expert marksman turns a person into the ideal soldier.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Actually, I don't feel qualified to comment on Kung Fu, per se. I would never in my life dream of telling you how to do your forms.

I do feel qualified to comment on what works and what doesn't, as I have over 12 years of experience in trying to get non-compliant people to do what *I* want - especially if it concerns grappling. When someone spouts bull****, I'll call them on it.

Unfortunately for many CMA types, bull**** springs forth in a veritable torrent quite often.

At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with people training what they train it; I have a problem with misrepresentation and delusion - ie, "I train for the street, for a no rules situation!"

Ummm.... no you don't. All training has rules. Ergo, you can't be training for a no rules situation. It's all simulations, where we do the best we can. There is a reason, for instance, that veteran units are highly prized...

Similarly, I do a sport. I suffer no illusions as to what that gives me: a useable skill set in case of emergency. It does NOT turn me into a fighter, or a bodyguard or a self defense expert, any more than being an expert marksman turns a person into the ideal soldier.

I think this is due to the fact that many CMA people, although they think they're open-minded, are actually quite close-minded, and regurgitate BS they've been told and taken to be true.

Hell, I was guilty of it when I started MA. Look around, though, test various people, and you quickly learn to debunk the BS. Even then, you touch hands with someone from a different art who's really good at his art, and he'll have the same misconceptions.........

I think that's why MMA guys generally sound like they're being debasing and abrasive. There's just a lot of high-minded victim-playing from CMA guys.

But some MMA guys have some pretty stupid things to say about CMA as well.

[Merryprankster]

I think that's why MMA guys generally sound like they're being debasing and abrasive. There's just a lot of high-minded victim-playing from CMA guys.

I've often said that if MMA arrogance is aggression, then CMA arrogance is "looking down your nose," at other people who don't have the capacity/chance to "See the truth," and be "enlightened.