Is the internal impossible in modern times

[simondo]

Hi!,
After many years at external martial arts, i have recently been researching the internal arts and have taken 4 lessons on bagua. There is just so much to it and everything is so intricate. My question is "Is there time to do this art justice and for this art to do justice for you (In the event of a real life situation)" Between work life, home family life and friends i have worked it out that i can only spend 3 hours a week at class and then approx 6-8 hours a week practice on my own. How many years to even get a good grounding in the eternal so i could defend myself effectivley? Would i be better off with good wing chun or dare i say it "Karate".At least thats not too complicated and i whave got good in about 10 years of practice but then i think "Is this as good as Internal kung fu. and theres no healing benefit either". Please let me know your experiences and views

Many thanks

S

[RonH]

It isn't impossible. You aren't starting from scratch, so you got a leg up on some people. The higher you go in external arts anyway, they start to turn into internal arts eventually, even on a limited level of internal work.

When starting any internal art, 9-11 hours a week is good. There's all the time in the world. Remember, with internal work, the point is to calm down and slow down before going superfast with moves. Not trying to cram tons and tons, hours and hours every day to make large advances.

When you stop trying to cram a lot in for an internal art, that's when you advance. Your sense of focus and discrimination get a turbocharge. With internal arts, you focus on breaking things down more and more, reaching a certain level of perfection with each part before you move onto the next thing. As you go along in the cirriculum, you increase the level of perfection for your skills.

Believe it or not, what you learn in an internal art perfects your external knowledge base. Where you are right now, you are not 'unarmed' for fighting. What the Bagua will do is take what you already have and you'll add the perfection you gain to it. As time goes on, you'll find out which way martially that you want to go.

So, remember. Slow down, relax and enjoy the classes. It's less about doing internal arts justice because it's more about allowing internal arts to do justice to you.

[woliveri]

yes, and it's important to understand in Bagua that Circle walking is your best friend. I've been learning Bagua for a little over a year and my teacher has been cramming things into me because he knows I'm leaving soon and it will be a while before I can come back but normally I would like to spend maybe 3 years on basics and circle walking. You can spend 30 min to an hour circle walking every day and that would be enough to last a good long time. Then add some Zhan Zhuang in there, 9 to 11 hours a week is good. Circle walking is the "gong" of Bagua and is your best friend.

[tai chi hermit]

i dont understand why u said ' and dare i say it "karate".... karate is very effective and powerful, but soft overcomes hard and karate is hard.

[simondo]

I in no way meant to put karate down or disrespect it. Taught properly its very effective but in my opinion about 80% of Karate clubs in the UK don't teach it as the effective art that it is. This is one of the reasons i have turned to the internal arts.:)

[Three Harmonies]

My suggestion:
Train as much as you can, with as much focus and intent as you can. Quality always trumps quantity.
Do not worry about "hours" or days, or weeks. Those are all creations of our mind, the body does not speak in these terms.
Soft / Hard it is the oldest/silliest debate out there. All systems have qualities of both. No one thing trumps another (other than maybe Gun - Fu!). Find a good teacher, do not worry about style. Only a good teacher can train you, not a style or technique.
Subscribe to decent computer porn in lieu' of getting advice here on KFO. Time and money much better spent.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[RonH]

All systems have qualities of both. No one thing trumps another (other than maybe Gun - Fu!).

I'll see your Gun - Fu and raise you an RPG - Fu. ;)

[tai chi hermit]

i disagree greatly with you saying neither are better. the softest thing in the universe overcomes the hardest. now, it takes a very long time to be able to reach the point of complete softness in a fighting situation, but when you are you cant be hurt or even touched. also, the power of internal is so amazing, in my opinion the hsing yi strikes are more devastating than the ones in karate (not counting mas oyama - the shorter version of his name- who could kill a bull with a punch) :)

[woliveri]

My suggestion:
Subscribe to decent computer porn in lieu' of getting advice here on KFO. Time and money much better spent.

You mean don't listen to yourself and forget the porn? :D:D:D

[cjurakpt]

simondo: your practice is part of your life, and your practice and life reflect each other, regardless of what you do; if you choose to do a so-called "internal" art, then you have decided to pursue an approach which typically tends to be less immediate results oriented and more concerned with awareness-building, although that is a very gross generalization; the key is to allow whatever you do come alive and to be infused with freshness and spontinaity - this way, one is able to rise and meet the challenge of life without reacting from one's unconscious habit; certainly diligent practice is necessary, which at the beginning appears more regimented than later on, but don't hold on to a preconceived notion of what that might entail at any given moment; as there is ultimately nothing to achieve, do not be too concerned with end result - this might inhibit you more than help in this particular sphere at the beginning;

inner practice is, IMHO, one of many extant means of slowing down the frenzied path of life in order to be able to listen to one's own heart and come to know oneself; this may create turmoil at first, but ultimately it allows one to be responsive as opposed to reactive; what good martial skill if we go home and speak harshly to our loved ones?

of course, one may also gain fighting skill, but my sense is that the most efficient way to doing that is training some sort of MMA format; IMA practice will not typically afford one the opportunity to pressure test techniques freely against a resisting skilled opponent...

BTW, all this talk about soft overcoming hard ultimately is silly - soft and hard are in and of themselves relative terms, and if soft always overcame hard, then there would not be balance - each is "victor" in its own turn when circumstances are meet

[Scott R. Brown]

Keep in mind that, while the softness of water will wear away the hardest rock.......in about a million years, TNT will accomplish the same thing in a weekend!!;)

While the willow, or bamboo will bend under the weight of snow, properly applied force to a specific point will still allow them to be broken.

It isn't about hard or soft, it is about applying principles of Tao according to ones needs. Sometimes the application of a hard principle is more efficient than the application of a soft principle.

[cjurakpt]

Keep in mind that, while the softness of water will wear away the hardest rock.......in about a million years, TNT will accomplish the same thing in a weekend!!;)

While the willow, or bamboo will bend under the weight of snow, properly applied force to a specific point will still allow hem to be broken.

It isn't about hard or soft, it is about applying principles of Tao according to ones needs. Sometimes the application of a hard principle is more efficient that the application of a soft principle.

thank you for a much needed dose of reality...

[TenTigers]

....ain't nuthin soft about gettin hit!

[TenTigers]

oh yeah, and did I mention that there are also super-secret, closed-door, internal ground fighting grappling skills, that are only known to a select few, that are so deadly that they cannot be mentioned out loud, for the very utterance of these techniques will change the ebb and flow of the ch'i in the meridians,changing yin to yang, which will result in a reversal of the bloodflow, causing the blood to flow back into the heart,building up pressure until it explodes sending streams of blood from every pore and every orafice in the body HOY!HOY! NOIVIN! LADYYYY!!DEAN? DEAN?and the only cure for this is wriitten down in the lineage-bearor's scrolls, handwritten in the Monk's own handwriting, taken off rubbings of the stone tablets, embedded in the walls of the grottos deep below the earth's surface, underneath the cave of DaMo on the grounds of the Shaolin Temple,which Mew Hing (the only true correct spelling of Miu-Hing)the senior most monk, who defeated Bak Mei after he killed Jee Shim(the only true correct spelling of Jee Siem)entrusted to Fung Donald Duck(the only true spelling of Fung Do-Duk) which were encapsulated in the Monk's Blood Palm of Glorious Thunder Palm,Palm meds(the only true correct term for noi-gung-not to be confused with my meds, which is a ritalin/thorazine ****tail) which when translated using the rosetta stone of the Wu-Dan (the only true correct spelling of Wu-Dan) monastery into english, is PEZ.

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah!! I liked that movie too!:)

[cjurakpt]

oh yeah, and did I mention that there are also super-secret, closed-door, internal ground fighting grappling skills, that are only known to a select few, that are so deadly that they cannot be mentioned out loud, for the very utterance of these techniques will change the ebb and flow of the ch'i in the meridians,changing yin to yang, which will result in a reversal of the bloodflow, causing the blood to flow back into the heart,building up pressure until it explodes sending streams of blood from every pore and every orafice in the body HOY!HOY! NOIVIN! LADYYYY!!DEAN? DEAN?and the only cure for this is wriitten down in the lineage-bearor's scrolls, handwritten in the Monk's own handwriting, taken off rubbings of the stone tablets, embedded in the walls of the grottos deep below the earth's surface, underneath the cave of DaMo on the grounds of the Shaolin Temple,which Mew Hing (the only true correct spelling of Miu-Hing)the senior most monk, who defeated Bak Mei after he killed Jee Shim(the only true correct spelling of Jee Siem)entrusted to Fung Donald Duck(the only true spelling of Fung Do-Duk) which were encapsulated in the Monk's Blood Palm of Glorious Thunder Palm,Palm meds(the only true correct term for noi-gung-not to be confused with my meds, which is a ritalin/thorazine ****tail) which when translated using the rosetta stone of the Wu-Dan (the only true correct spelling of Wu-Dan) monastery into english, is PEZ.

you do realize that the Brotherhood must now hunt you down relentlessly...

[tai chi hermit]

like i said.... a true master of tai chi can only be stopped by very VERY few.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


a true master of tai chi can only be stopped by very VERY few.
This notion is one of Taiji' worst enemies.. This notion is a by-product of Taiji, not a goal.. Scott correctly identified the process, "principles of Tao", Taiji is a vehicle for expressing those principles.. correctly expressed principles of Tao are not confined to any art, it is beyond Art..

Be well...

[cjurakpt]

http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

The above link involves Mas Oyama's challenge to old Tai Chi master Chen. According to Oyama, he was bettered by the Tai Chi master.

Thank you

has it never occured to anyone that this whole thing might just be a fabrication? it belies a lack of knowledge of the mindset of these guys: for example, if you are karate teacher who wants to incorporate some non-linear stuff you came up with, you don't say you did it - that would be arrogant; so you "learn it" from a taiji guy you happened to meet and who happened to be better than you - that creates legitimacy (e.g. - like taiji guys claiming their art originated from taoist San Chang Fung - instant street cred); regardless, I would take it with a huge grain of salt - taiji doesn't make anyone invincible, it doesn't give you a level 30 saving throw against melee attacks...

[cjurakpt]

like i said.... a true master of tai chi can only be stopped by very VERY few.

I think you need a few more years alone in the cave before revealing yourself to the publlic...

[Scott R. Brown]

has it never occured to anyone that this whole thing might just be a fabrication? it belies a lack of knowledge of the mindset of these guys: for example, if you are karate teacher who wants to incorporate some non-linear stuff you came up with, you don't say you did it - that would be arrogant; so you "learn it" from a taiji guy you happened to meet and who happened to be better than you - that creates legitimacy (e.g. - like taiji guys claiming their art originated from taoist San Chang Fung - instant street cred); regardless, I would take it with a huge grain of salt - taiji doesn't make anyone invincible, it doesn't give you a level 30 saving throw against melee attacks...

I have been authorized to warn you!!

The brotherhood is now after YOU too!! I will miss your posts. :(I will also be waiting to read your very last post! I suspect it will read something like:


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!! SPLAT!!!:eek:

[Three Harmonies]

I understand we are all on different parts of our own path so I try not to belittle anyone. But for those of you who hold so steadfastly to a notion of difference's between "styles" and this silliness of soft overcomes hard blah, blah, blah...... All I can say is give it time and train with an open mind. I have yet to meet anyone who is decent have these kind of attitudes. You will grow out of them (hopefully).
Best of luck in your training.
Jake :cool:

[TenTigers]

Tai Chi Ch'uan was a Martial Art designed to maim,cripple and kill, waaaaayyy before David Carradine and Vegan-Fu ever heard of it.

[Scott R. Brown]

I understand we are all on different parts of our own path so I try not to belittle anyone. But for those of you who hold so steadfastly to a notion of difference's between "styles" and this silliness of soft overcomes hard blah, blah, blah...... All I can say is give it time and train with an open mind. I have yet to meet anyone who is decent have these kind of attitudes. You will grow out of them (hopefully).
Best of luck in your training.
Jake :cool:

Hi Jake,

It is more likely that you hold a bit of a narrow view of just what "soft overcomes hard" actually means. There is no shame in this, in my experience most of us are susceptible to the limitations of incomplete understanding.

There are times when soft overcomes hard and times when hard overcomes soft. All principles of Tao occur according to a context. As I have previously mentioned:

It isn't about hard or soft, it is about applying principles of Tao according to ones needs/goals/purpose. Sometimes the application of a hard principle is more efficient than the application of a soft principle; sometimes a soft principle is more efficient. This quality of Tao is beautifully illustrated by Yin-Yang. One of the benefits of wisdom is the ability to discern what is appropriate according to the specific circumstances encountered. This takes experience.

There are clearly differences in styles as well. Some differences are physical, some are tactical, some are philosophical.

It seems you would benefit from a bit more time training, studying, and understanding yourself.

[tai chi hermit]

any more info on which master chen it was?

[Three Harmonies]

Maybe I should follow the principles of Tao more eh?:rolleyes:
I am still a student, and always will be. Never said anything other. Just offering advice. No one has to listen, I really care not.
Jake :cool:

[tai chi hermit]

i do try to follow the tao as much as i can, but one of the greatest if not the greatest taoists of all time, lao tzu, wrote that soft overcomes hard. which everything i read from the tao te ching applies to everything, so i am not one to argue with a purely enlightened taoist like him.

[TenTigers]

taoist! ok. NOW I get it. All this time I thought it was toast!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I hate to get caught-up in this, but.. if you're trying to follow "Tao", you've already lost it.. its principles care not for which art one favors, no more than the Sun cares which culture it shines on.. this yammering will not decide anything..

Be Well..

[cjurakpt]

Greetings..

I hate to get caught-up in this, but.. if you're trying to follow "Tao", you've already lost it.. its principles care not for which art one favors, no more than the Sun cares which culture it shines on.. this yammering will not decide anything..

Be Well..

d'oh - ya beat me to it; point is - one is following tao whether one tries to or not, thinks one is or not, etc. - if, according to the "definition", tao encompasses all things, well then, whatever you do is part of tao: it' sjust that certain types of actions will yield certain types of results...and BTW, whether you are trying to follow it or not, guess what - tao doesn't care!

personally, I find lao tzu a bit too abstract - I am more of a Chuang Tzu-er myself (e.g. - "there is tao even in the pis and the dung" - my kinda fella!)

anyway, I AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!! SPLAT!!!:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe I should follow the principles of Tao more eh?:rolleyes:
I am still a student, and always will be. Never said anything other. Just offering advice. No one has to listen, I really care not.
Jake :cool:

Hi Jake,

We all follow the principles of Tao; it is impossible not too. Whether you are a conscious participant in their application or not is your own choice.

When we learn to observe and apply the principles of Tao we become in greater accord with Tao and this works to our advantage. That is, we receive benefits from their application.

There are times when the choices we make result in a less efficient manner of achieving our purpose. One of the principles of Tao is the conservation of energy. If followed this principle guides us to use the most efficient means to accomplish a purpose. Why use 85% effort when 10% effort will accomplish the same task. On one hand you have 15% energy reserves; on the other you have 90% energy reserve. The efficient use of energy is determined by our purpose, what we are attempting to accomplish. So if my purpose is to move rock, I can wait for erosion to do it or I can use some artfully placed sticks of TNT.

The principle of the conservation of energy has been universally perceived by students of the processes of nature (Tao) and encouraged across history and cultures. There have been aphorisms used to describe this principle:

Waste not, want not!
A penny saved is a penny earned!
A stitch in time saves nine!
etc.

Hard and Soft describe a relationship between phenomena; they are not absolute conditions. An identical action may be performed according to two different circumstances. In one circumstance the action may be considered HARD and in the other circumstance it may be considered SOFT. The action in and of itself is neither Hard nor Soft without something else to contrast it with.

Your comments are as welcome as anyone else's. But in the end most of us don’t care either.


i do try to follow the tao as much as i can, but one of the greatest if not the greatest taoists of all time, lao tzu, wrote that soft overcomes hard. which everything i read from the tao te ching applies to everything, so i am not one to argue with a purely enlightened taoist like him.

Hi tai chi hermit,

Writings on Tao are not to be taken as absolute doctrine; they are to be used as a guide aiding us in direct understanding for ourselves. The words describe conditions of being and principles of processes that are to be directly understood through experience, not blindly followed just because someone said them. The words are the finger pointing to the moon, they are not the moon. Our purpose should be to directly perceive the moon for ourselves, not focus on the description of the moon or the path to follow in order to perceive the moon.

Direct observation of the nature of phenomena demonstrates that most of the time Hard overcomes Soft. That is, the active principle overcomes the passive principle. This is clearly illustrated by Yin-Yang. However, this is only true according to a specific context. One could conceive of a condition wherein the passive principle draws the active principle towards it. That is, instead of Yang actively entering a space, Yin empties the space drawing Yang to fill it. However, the act of “drawing” is an active principle; the act of “following” is a passive principle. So when the passive principle draws the active principle towards it, it is transformed into the active principle by the act of “drawing” while the active principle is transformed into the passive principle by the act of “following”.

The principle of Soft overcoming Hard describes a relationship of phenomena. It is the context that determines which principle is considered Hard and which is considered Soft. When the principle of the conservation of energy is followed it means it is more productive to accomplish a task using the least amount of energy as possible.

[Scott R. Brown]

Poor cjurakpt! We hardly knew ye!!

I tried to warn him, but he just wouldn't listen.

At any rate, I have discovered the secret of life! It is......Hey! What the HELL are you guys doing.......


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!! SPLAT!!!:eek:

[Three Harmonies]

Someone has too much time on his hands! Practice more, read the Tao De Jing less:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Someone has too much time on his hands! Practice more, read the Tao De Jing less:D

Spoken like a true novice! It is wiser to train smart than to train foolishly. Learning the principles of Tao and applying them to your life in an effective manner improves the quality of ones training as well as all other endeavors of life. While not training at all is a detriment, not studying at all is foolishness as well. Finding the right balance is the key to successfully applying the principles of Tao to training and life.

One may perceive the processes of Tao in all phenomena including training, cooking, working and any other activity of life. The Chinese and Japanese understood this. That is why true masters also studied and excelled at other arts such as Tea ceremony, Calligraphy, Flower Arrangement, Painting, Poetry, etc.

It does not require any reading of the Tao Te Ching or Chuang-tzu or any other authorities. All it takes is a basic understanding of the main principles and then persistent observation of how they apply/function in life.

The point of understanding and applying the principles of Tao to our lives is to learn to accommodate ourselves in a manner that the principles work to our benefit. Working against the processes of Tao produces negative consequences in proportion to the amount of deviation from the mean/balance point. Energy is conserved and the processes work to our benefit when we accommodate to the principles of Tao.

If we are swimming in a river, and we wish to reach the shore, a person in tune with Tao moves with the flow of the river, (accommodates to Tao), and works their way to shore at a slight angle to the current. This behavior conserves energy and enhances the opportunity for successfully achieving our purpose. A person out of accord with Tao fights the current by swimming against it, or wastes energy by swimming across the current. This action wastes energy and reduces or complicates the opportunity for success.

As Lao-tzu teaches, a wise person, when they learn of Tao, seeks to apply the principles to their life; foolish people mock it.

At some times it is of greater benefit to study more and train less. Someday you may understand this principle. If you do not you are choosing to behave like the foolish person and not the wise!

[sunfist]

The internal is impossible if you are a hippy. Within the framework of modern society, hippies flourish much more readily, hence giving the impression that modernisation itself has prevented true insight into internal arts.

When the reality is youre probably just a hippy.

[woliveri]

The internal is impossible if you are a hippy. Within the framework of modern society, hippies flourish much more readily, hence giving the impression that modernisation itself has prevented true insight into internal arts.

When the reality is youre probably just a hippy.

Hey, I resemble that remark!!

[tai chi hermit]

Hi Jake,


Hi tai chi hermit,

Writings on Tao are not to be taken as absolute doctrine; they are to be used as a guide aiding us in direct understanding for ourselves. The words describe conditions of being and principles of processes that are to be directly understood through experience, not blindly followed just because someone said them. The words are the finger pointing to the moon, they are not the moon. Our purpose should be to directly perceive the moon for ourselves, not focus on the description of the moon or the path to follow in order to perceive the moon.

Direct observation of the nature of phenomena demonstrates that most of the time Hard overcomes Soft. That is, the active principle overcomes the passive principle. This is clearly illustrated by Yin-Yang. However, this is only true according to a specific context. One could conceive of a condition wherein the passive principle draws the active principle towards it. That is, instead of Yang actively entering a space, Yin empties the space drawing Yang to fill it. However, the act of “drawing” is an active principle; the act of “following” is a passive principle. So when the passive principle draws the active principle towards it, it is transformed into the active principle by the act of “drawing” while the active principle is transformed into the passive principle by the act of “following”.

The principle of Soft overcoming Hard describes a relationship of phenomena. It is the context that determines which principle is considered Hard and which is considered Soft. When the principle of the conservation of energy is followed it means it is more productive to accomplish a task using the least amount of energy as possible.

I understand what your are saying, but then why would he 'lao tzu' not follow up by saying the hardest thing in the universe overcomes the softest

[Scott R. Brown]

I understand what your are saying, but then why would he 'lao tzu' not follow up by saying the hardest thing in the universe overcomes the softest
Hi tai chi hermit,

That is a very good question.

Taoist tradition goes back some 3-4,000 years and perhaps further. During that time there have been innumerable works written by those who are students of Tao. There is at least one work entitled Nei Yeh that precedes the Tao Te Ching by perhaps a couple of hundred years. Chinese translations of the Tao Te Ching alone number over 100 with somewhere above 2,000 commentaries. English translations, which are numerous as well, often vary concerning the translation of the verses. I image the same thing occurs with the Chinese translations and the commentaries.

Keep in mind that studying and learning concerning Tao is a process of growth with no discernable finish line providing no fixed definition/doctrine. The Tao that can be told/named/fixed/pinned down/clearly defined is not the true/absolute/complete/real Tao. Conversations, instructions, doctrines, writings are not the final word on Tao. Direct experience is, and that experience is a condition of changeless change.

Many teachings on Tao are filled with apparent paradoxes. The Tao Te Ching itself states in the first stanza: “The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao!”, but then goes on to speak about Tao. Why is this? Because words are what we use to describe experiences to one and other. But the description is not to be taken for the ACTUAL experience. Words are inadequate indicators of direct experience. The DESCRIPTION of the taste of an orange is not the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of the taste of an orange. So the first line of the Tao Te Ching is similar to, “The description of the taste of an orange should not be confused with the actual taste of an orange!” “The description of Tao should not be confused with ACTUAL Tao!”, the description is not the thing itself!

Paradox is a useful tool to help the mind exceed rational distinctions. Tao is not just something we think about. It is also something we experience. Without the direct experience the words we read and thoughts we have bear no necessary resemblance to the actual experience. Following the experience we use words to attempt to describe the experience. Preceding that, the descriptive words are only a vague indication of the actual experience. Our understanding is incomplete. The words/descriptions of others serve the purpose of directing us in the right direction to have the experience for ourselves and to help us recognize and understand the experience when we have it. Your description of happiness only has meaning to me because I have had the direct experience of happiness. If I had never experienced happiness your description would be somewhat meaningless and incomprehensible to me. Once I actually experience happiness for myself I have an “Aha!” moment because I finally understand your description.

Concerning soft overcoming hard, it is a truism according to certain specific contexts, but it is not an absolute statement of reality, meaning it is not true in all circumstances.

Yin-Yang is the principle illustration of Tao. It is not YIN-yang, and it is not yin-YANG. It is Yin-Yang. Yin and Yang are mutually arising, equal. One is not pre-eminent over the other in value or function. Yin and Yang occur simultaneously, the one exists because of the existence of the other. If one ceases to exist the other is extinguished simultaneously. One cannot take eternal precedence over the other. Certainly there are times when one dominates the other, Yin-Yang illustrates this with its rhythmic cycle, but in reality Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin. Which is which at what specific time depends upon the context in which they are perceived.

Because of the illustration of Tao as represented by Yin-Yang we know some truths concerning Tao, we know that Soft CANNOT universally and absolutely overcome Hard. It is immaterial whether we understand why Lao Tzu made his assertion or not, the actual real world facts and philosophical (reasoned) evidence indicates this to be false if taken as an absolute principle. So we come to the conclusion that, if we assume Lao Tzu knew what he was talking about, he did not intend for the comment to be taken as an absolute condition of Tao. Therefore the error is in our understanding or interpretation of his meaning. His meaning applies to a specific context and it is the context we must discern in order to understand his meaning. In a later post I will address the specific stanza (#43) of the Tao Te Ching.

Following is number of English translations of stanza #43. It would be a benefit for others to share their thoughts concerning the meaning of this stanza so anyone desiring to do so, please join in the discussion.

[Scott R. Brown]

Stan Rosenthal:


Only the soft overcomes the hard,
by yielding, bringing it to peace.

Even where there is no space,
that which has no substance enters in.

Through these things is shown
the value of the natural way.

The wise man understands full well,
that wordless teaching can take place,

and that actions should occur
without the wish for self-advancement.


Peter A. Merel: based on the translations of Robert G. Henricks, Lin Yutang, D.C. Lau, Ch'u Ta-Kao, Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, Richard Wilhelm and Aleister Crowley.


Water overcomes the stone;
Without substance it requires no opening;
This is the benefit of taking no action.

Yet benefit without action,
And experience without abstraction,
Are practiced by very few.


Raymond B. Blakney


The softest of stuff in the world
Penetrates quickly the hardest;

Insubstantial, it enters
Where no room is.
By this I know the benefit
Of something done by quiet being;

In all the world but few can know
Accomplishment apart from work,
Instruction when no words are used.


S. Mitchell


The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.


J. Legge


The softest thing in the world dashes against and overcomes the hardest;

that which has no (substantial) existence enters where there is no crevice. I know hereby what advantage belongs to doing nothing (with a purpose).

There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.


Charles Muller


The softest thing in the world
Will overcome the hardest.

Non-being can enter where there is no space.

Therefore I know the benefit of unattached action.

The wordless teaching and unattached action are rarely seen.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A wonderful interpretation of Yin/Yang relationships was given to me by a mentor..

Yin is permanent, consistent, understated.. Yang is temporary, recurring and over-stated.. Yin's softness is misinterpreted, it is supremely hard.. only displaying itself as "soft" as its hardness is spread throughout ALL that IS.. Yang's hardness is misinterpreted, its "hardness" is temporary and expressed in temporary bursts.. on balance, the consistency envelops the temporary.. in eternal cycles..

i liked this rendition, still do... i think we suffer from limited perspectives, we try to apply Universal principles to specific situations, like Taiji relative to conflict.. in the microcosom of our physical perceptions, the properties of Yin/Yang are mutable and relative.. Adrian's table/air analogy illustrates this: while the table expresses its hardness definitively, it is temporary compared to the air's longevity.. the table will yield its hardness over time, returning to dust.. the air will still be there, consistent and appearing soft as ever..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

The above link involves Mas Oyama's challenge to old Tai Chi master Chen. According to Oyama, he was bettered by the Tai Chi master.

Thank you

And we have also seen Kyokushin fighters have a hard time dealing with the taikiken guys ( check youtube).

Fact is, to train in only ONE manner is setting yourself up for defeat, its like training only in striking or only in grappling, you are half developed at best, incomplete always.

[doug maverick]

alot of the taikiken guys are like fourth degree black belts in kyokushin at least thats what i heard.

[tai chi hermit]

i can say that this being as it was (an argument) has really come to enlighten me, but the way i view it, as not all people do, is that hard (the table, fist, kick, etc.) has no effect against the soft (a person moving with the blow or intercepting it) therefore the one exerting all the force will tire. then the soft has his chance to show the hard(yang) in himself. which theres a phrase from the art of war that is one of my favorites that really sums all this up...

Art of War - Chapter 4

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy."........."Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive."

and i have got to say the scott and the others posting about yin + yang, seems as though you all should be writing the books and lao tzu reading them, eh? hehe:D

[cjurakpt]

let's also consider a few things about Lao Tzu "the man" (if in fact he actually ever lived); he was a librarian, so he obviously was more of a thinker than a doer; he ostensibly left wherever it was he was working because he perceived the state of "the state" to be corrupt and whatnot; he was human and like any human, predisposed to some sort of personal bias, no matter what - but at least he knew that - because to me, he clearly points it out in the first line: "the Dao that can be spoken is not the eternal Dao" - it's not just a general statment, it's a very artistically worded, literary form of disclaimer - in other words, in my opinion, he's telling you straight out, in essence, "everything that now follows is just my personal opinion, not the 'truth'"! think about it...

that said, I believe that he was not writing down something that was necessarily for "the ages" - I think he didn't think so much of himself that he believed that 2,000 plus years later people would be reading his meanderings and taklng them as representative of an entire school of philisophical thought - rather, I believe, he was writing a "prescrption" for the ills that he perceived to be besetting China at that particular moment in time; if what he wrote has any bearing on our modern condition it is simply because history is doomed to repeat itself - the human condition is the human condition, and the truth is the truth, so to speak; or he'd been locked up with dusty scrolls for far too long and the preservatives that he'd been applying to them went to his head...

my point is that to fixate on Lao Tzu as some sort of authority is the exact opposite of what, I think, he would have "wanted"; the Ch'an teachers talk about "drinking the dregs" of other people's experience when you take what is written down as authoritative, because, fundamentally, it robs you of the capacity for spontaneous "suchness" - if every time you are faced with a "problem" in life, referencing anything outside of the immediacy of that situation takes you out of that situation, whether it's the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, what your mother told you, etc.; so it's fine and great to read Lao Tzu and others (again, I always found the Chuang Tzu much more interesting), but once you've read it, you may as well toss it on the rubbish bin for all it's worth, because going back and continually refencing it simply reinforces the golden chain you have put around your own ankle - rember, the sixth patriarch of Ch'an, Hui Neng, was an illiterate peasant, and I know at least one drawing of him where he's depicted as tearing up the sutras...

[RonH]

Greetings..

A wonderful interpretation of Yin/Yang relationships was given to me by a mentor..

Yin is permanent, consistent, understated.. Yang is temporary, recurring and over-stated.. Yin's softness is misinterpreted, it is supremely hard.. only displaying itself as "soft" as its hardness is spread throughout ALL that IS.. Yang's hardness is misinterpreted, its "hardness" is temporary and expressed in temporary bursts.. on balance, the consistency envelops the temporary.. in eternal cycles..

i liked this rendition, still do... i think we suffer from limited perspectives, we try to apply Universal principles to specific situations, like Taiji relative to conflict.. in the microcosom of our physical perceptions, the properties of Yin/Yang are mutable and relative.. Adrian's table/air analogy illustrates this: while the table expresses its hardness definitively, it is temporary compared to the air's longevity.. the table will yield its hardness over time, returning to dust.. the air will still be there, consistent and appearing soft as ever..

Be well..

I've held the opposite approach. Yin is what's temporary, always changing and adapting. With the hand waving example, Yin is what makes the air molecules move about because of one force or another (the waving hand, the transfer of heat from high concentrations to low). The sliding of a car when the brakes are slammed too quickly. For me, Yang is the permanance, the force that initiates change (where Yin is the act of change itself), like electrostatic repulsion. Yin is the potential of reality because of its infinte malleability.

The realization of Yin is Yang. The catalyst for the realization of Yin comes from Yang. Yin is constantly changing, forever moving in an infinte number of directions because of the always present forces of Yang acting upon it.

[cjurakpt]

I've held the opposite approach. Yin is what's temporary, always changing and adapting. With the hand waving example, Yin is what makes the air molecules move about because of one force or another (the waving hand, the transfer of heat from high concentrations to low). The sliding of a car when the brakes are slammed too quickly. For me, Yang is the permanance, the force that initiates change (where Yin is the act of change itself), like electrostatic repulsion. Yin is the potential of reality because of its infinte malleability.

The realization of Yin is Yang. The catalyst for the realization of Yin comes from Yang. Yin is constantly changing, forever moving in an infinte number of directions because of the always present forces of Yang acting upon it.

classically, Yin "is" structure, it is the empty vessel; Yang "is" function, it is the potential / act of filling the vessel; of course, one can say whatever one likes, such that yin is active, yang is passive: no difference, really - it's just a name, it doesn't really matter inherently - which means that to argue that one sees as "b" what most regards as "a" and one sees as "a" what most regard as "b" really isn't the point after all; one can certainly have one's own interpretation, it really doesn't matter as it is all inherently arbitrary; what "matters" is that there will always be a dichotomy whne one moves beyond the one / whole - one principle will be active, temporary, another will be passive, permanent - calling one yin or yang doesn't change the fundamental nature of the interelationship, it simply signifies according to one's own personal perspective

[mantis108]

classically, Yin "is" structure, it is the empty vessel; Yang "is" function, it is the potential / act of filling the vessel; of course, one can say whatever one likes, such that yin is active, yang is passive: no difference, really - it's just a name, it doesn't really matter inherently - which means that to argue that one sees as "b" what most regards as "a" and one sees as "a" what most regard as "b" really isn't the point after all; one can certainly have one's own interpretation, it really doesn't matter as it is all inherently arbitrary; what "matters" is that there will always be a dichotomy whne one moves beyond the one / whole - one principle will be active, temporary, another will be passive, permanent - calling one yin or yang doesn't change the fundamental nature of the interelationship, it simply signifies according to one's own personal perspective

Sorry, Chinese language is very different from phonetic base language (ie English). The written words in Chinese are ideograms which are abstract pictures of the actual things (ie the word for horse looks like a horse). Abstract idea such as yin or yang is often formed by different radicals such yin is represented by a hill side, the time "now" and cloud; while, yang is presented by a hill side, the sun and the moon. The sun and the moon actually formed the word "Yi" that means change. The problem today is that people liberally mixing the concept of Yin-Yang with that of Rigidity and Fluidity. They are not that necessarily the same thing in classical literatures. Also people grossly disregard the fact that Lao Zi actually used classical material in forming his presentation or rather "arguments" including Yi Jing (classic of change). BTW, Yi Jing at the time isn't the same as the Zhou Yi, which is now commonly known as Yi Jing, as we know it today. There's a lot of cross over ideas and concepts between Dao De Jing and Yi Jing especially when it comes to Chinese worldview - understanding of space-time continuum of ancient Chinese people.

Anyway, It's great to be a free thinker but I believe we must be careful before condam ning the intellectuals and burning their written works. There is a fine line between the 6th patriarch and the First Emperor/Chairman Mao, my friend.

Mantis108

[cjurakpt]

Sorry, Chinese language is very different from phonetic base language (ie English). The written words in Chinese are ideograms which are abstract pictures of the actual things (ie the word for horse looks like a horse). Abstract idea such as yin or yang is often formed by different radicals such yin is represented by a hill side, the time "now" and cloud; while, yang is presented by a hill side, the sun and the moon. The sun and the moon actually formed the word "Yi" that means change. The problem today is that people liberally mixing the concept of Yin-Yang with that of Rigidity and Fluidity. They are not that necessarily the same thing in classical literatures. Mantis108
if you want to talk ideograms, that's fine, but that doesn't set their meaning is set in stone any more than a phonetic language: for example, the "original" ideogram for "qi", this thing that's got people all worked up in a tizzy, is a visual description of the vapor rising up off of fermenting rice - overtime it took on a number of varied, though not totally unrelated, meanings: but who uses it in that original way much nowadays? or take the the character for cinnabar, dan: it depicts an oven buried in the ground cooking something (actually the process of turning cinnabar into mercury) - this can be taken literally, or can be seen as a metaphor for internal alchemical processes; also one of the translations of the character is "transformation", which can be applied in ways beyond the alchemical or metallurgical meaning; the character for Dao is a depiction of a person walking along a path - certainly a good metaphor for "way", but hardly the exact meaning as illustrated by the character itself; my point is that things are so because people say they are so, but regardless of what name/pictogram you assign to a given natural phenomennon or principle such as yin or yang, that phenomennon/principle a) doesn't care; b) behaves the same way regardless - other cultural have bserved this dualistic principle and the tendency of those principles to "flip" to anther state when they reach an extreme (Derrida calls this "differance" e.g.), so ultimately what you actually call those principles or the pictograph you assign to them doesn't matter - it's how you interrract with them in life


Also people grossly disregard the fact that Lao Zi actually used classical material in forming his presentation or rather "arguments" including Yi Jing (classic of change). BTW, Yi Jing at the time isn't the same as the Zhou Yi, which is now commonly known as Yi Jing, as we know it today. There's a lot of cross over ideas and concepts between Dao De Jing and Yi Jing especially when it comes to Chinese worldview - understanding of space-time continuum of ancient Chinese people.
I'm not saying Lao Tzu wasn't learned or that his methodology wasn't far-reaching and in-depth - I was just pointing out that, like anyone, he necessarilly had a biased perspective, and I think that his aim was to deal with the immediacy of the there and then (Daoists are ultimately pragmatists) as opposed to writing something that would be handed down for generations; the fact that it does still have relevance makes sense given the use of yik ging, since it is essentially a formula for describing the way in which society functions, and those rules hold true the same for today as they did back then


Anyway, It's great to be a free thinker but I believe we must be careful before condam ning the intellectuals and burning their written works. There is a fine line between the 6th patriarch and the First Emperor/Chairman Mao, my friend.
as for Hui Neng vs. Mao - I agree - it's not a question of burning the sutras, it's the motivation for doing it: Mao's burning was a pre-meditated, calculated strategy for establishing his ideology - ultimately a very self-conscious, ego-driven act; Hui neng's was simply a spontaneous expression of his level of understanding - in essence, "Hui Neng" was nowhere to be found when it happened...

[brianK]

Agreed. Hui Neng was applying that old Ch'an doctrine: If you see the Buddah on the road, kill him. Ultimately, we have to free ourselves from all preconceived notions, even those put in our head by masters.

Brian--In the beginning there was no mirror, so where upon can dust fall?

[cjurakpt]

preach it, brother

[extrajoseph]

In the beginning there is no dust to fall, no mirror to reflect and no Buddha to kill on the road, so why do we make them up?

So we can undo them and make our journey more meaningful and bearable. Whether we push, we borrow, we follow or we lead, the invisible pendulum swings.:)

[tai chi hermit]

so since the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao, and the name that can be named is not the eternal name, does that pretty much mean To each his own?

everyone's life is their 'tao', and its impossible to put a name on something that doesn't last here forever. so really everyone is right on this board since tao is within everything and outside of everything and its yin and yang!

[Scott R. Brown]

Wow, a lot of good posts today!

We should keep in mind that the qualities of a phenomenon that allow it to be assigned to the category of Yin or Yang are ALWAYS relative to the context. No phenomenon is inherently Yin or Yang. Yin and Yang describe a relationship between two or more phenomena. Each phenomenon possesses a quality that when contrasted with the qualities of another phenomenon allow it to be categorized as Yin or Yang in relationship to that other phenomenon.

So, we cannot say that Hard is necessarily Yang without mentioning what we are contrasting it with. Hard is Yang when contrasted with Soft, but it is Yin when contrasted with Harder. Harder is Yin when contrasted with Hardest. Hard, Harder, Hardest are all Yang when contrasted with Soft, but not when contrasted with each other. When Hard is contrasted with Harder, Hard actually becomes Soft even though a quality of the phenomenon may be considered Hard. So while a table is Hard to the touch, it is Soft when a wrecking ball is dropped on it. Air is Soft/Yin when contrasted with the human body/Yang, but it is Yang when compressed enough to shoot a hole right through your body. In this circumstance your Body is Yin to the Yang of Air. Water is Yin in relationship to my body when I jump into if from the pool side, but it is Yang when I land in it at terminal velocity. The qualities of our body, water and air have not changed, but the context under which they are contrasted has changed and the assignment to the category of Yin or Yang changes as the context changes.

For Light to be Yang it must not only be contrasted with something that is not-Light it must also be contrasted with something that is “Less-Light”. If Light is contrasted with something that is More-Light, Brighter, then Light is Yin according to that context. This is illustrated in the example of the ideograms mentioned by Adrian. A shady side of a hill is not Dark, it is less-Light. A cloudy sky is Yin when contrasted with the Yang of a cloudless sky. Apparent opposites such as Hard and Soft, Light and Dark are used in the description of the principles of Yin and Yang to provide a sharp contrast in order to make the principles more easily understood. But along with the benefit of being easily understood comes the consequence of possible confusion as to the clear meaning of the principles they are intended to describe. When we adhere to the literal meaning of the examples rather than their intended figurative meaning we are likely to have a less than comprehensive understanding of the principles being illustrated.

Writings by accepted authorities on the principles of Tao should be considered ONLY as a finger pointing to the Moon. The finger is NOT the Moon, it is merely a tool meant to guide us to our own personal experience of the Moon. If we focus too much on the finger we will never find the Moon. Once we find the Moon, if we remain emotionally attached to the finger, we may forget that finding the Moon was our original purpose and start believing it is the finger that is important. The purpose of the finger is only as a useful expedient, a tool used to direct us to the Moon. Once we are able to find the Moon on our own we no longer require the use of the pointing finger. Although we may use our own finger to point the Moon out to others, once they are able to find the Moon on their own they no longer require our finger as a guide as well. Therefore those, such as Hui-neng, are free to tear up the scriptures. When the nail is set I no longer need the hammer. If I refuse to let go of the hammer I will be unable to complete other tasks.

[Scott R. Brown]

Concerning Verse # 43 of the Tao Te Ching:

There are inherent difficulties when attempting to understand the philosophical writings that were written during a different historical era, in a different culture, using translations from an unfamiliar language. It is always a benefit when trying to understand these kinds of writings to read as many interpretations as possible. Each interpretation provides a different facet of the principles discussed. Each version is filtered through the translator’s personal lens and provides a different perspective on the writings. It is like the four blind men who touched different parts of an elephant and described the elephant according to their direct experience. None of the descriptions is wrong, but neither do they provide a complete description of an elephant.

In my previous post I provided 6 different interpretations of the same Chinese characters found in verse # 43 of the Tao Te Ching. Each are somewhat the same, yet also different. The following description I will provide should be considered only one more facet or perspective and not the final word on Verse # 43. Principles of Tao are to be personally apprehended. They cannot be completely or comprehensively explained or described. This is within the inherent nature of Tao.

1) Only the soft overcomes the hard,
by yielding, bringing it to peace.

2) Water overcomes the stone;

3) The softest of stuff in the world
Penetrates quickly the hardest;

4) The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.

5) The softest thing in the world dashes against and overcomes the hardest;

6) The softest thing in the world
Will overcome the hardest.


The question of tai chi hermit in post # 38 of this thread was, “why would he 'lao tzu' not follow up by saying the hardest thing in the universe overcomes the softest”.

These lines of the verse are meant to take a familiar natural occurring principle, that is, a principle that occurs in nature, and use it to illustrate a philosophical point. In some Taoist writings, authors take a natural phenomenon that occurs according to their understanding and use it illustrate their deeper point. For example, in the 1700’s lived a well known commentator on Taoism name Liu I-ming. In of his treatises entitled “Awakening to the Tao” he repeatedly contrasts natural phenomena with principles of Tao in order to help illustrate the principles. As an illustration here are a few lines from his work as translated by Thomas Cleary,

“Thunder is fierce, intense, and strong; wind is gradual, far-reaching, and soft. When the wind and thunder combine, then there is soft gentleness in the midst of hard intensity, and there is hard intensity in the midst of soft gentleness. Hardness and softness complement each other.

What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of balanced harmonization of hardness and softness.”

He then continues to describe how, through the harmonization of the hard principle with the soft principle in our daily lives, we may be brought into accord with Tao. While the rest of the section is very interesting the point I am trying to illustrate is that writers on Tao use natural processes as examples to illustrate philosophical points in an effort to help the read apply them within their personal lives.

In verse # 43 of the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu takes a specific context of Soft and Hard. He is speaking of a specific context of when Softness overcomes Hard. Even though some of the translations make it appear to be an absolute this should be taken to be poetic license and not an absolute condition. We know this to be so because we can conceive of circumstances when Softness cannot overcome Hard. We must consider that since we are able to conceive of and experience first hand circumstances when Hard will always overcome Soft that Lao Tzu must be speaking figuratively and according to a specific context and not ALL contexts. Lao Tzu states that JUST AS the natural process of water will overcome stone and softness may overcome hardness, the following…..will occur. What is “the following…..?” It is found in the next section of the verse.

[B]1) Even where there is no space,
that which has no substance enters in.
Through these things is shown
the value of the natural way.

2) Without substance it requires no opening;
This is the benefit of taking no action.

3) Without substance it requires no opening;
This is the benefit of taking no action.

4) Insubstantial, it enters
Where no room is.
By this I know the benefit
Of something done by quiet being;

5) That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

6) that which has no (substantial) existence enters where there is no crevice. I know hereby what advantage belongs to doing nothing (with a purpose).

The key principle here appears to be that “something” which has “no substance” is able to penetrate all things even when there appears to be no opportunity for penetration, i.e. no opening (crevice) available for entry. What is it that can penetrate all things regardless of there being an opening? It isn’t water, but it behaves in a similar manner as water. It is Soft and yielding, it wears away/permeates Hard things. It is Tao.

Tao, within the context of this verse, is insubstantial. In essence all things are Tao, therefore even hard things are Tao, but for the purposes of the point of the verse Lao Tzu arbitrarily ignores this fact to illustrate his point.

Tao is insubstantial because it is beyond material substance. According to this specific context material things are measurable, and insubstantial things are not measurable. Tao is immeasurable and is therefore insubstantial. We can only know Tao intellectually/conventionally through its effects. We know it indirectly as the blind man knows the sun is shining because he can feel the heat of it on his skin. He knows the presence of the sun by its effects, not because he can actually see it (measure it). So Tao, being insubstantial, is able to permeate all substantial things regardless of whether there is an apparent opening. It is able to do this because it is insubstantial. According to the context of the verse then, that which is insubstantial is the ultimate Yin. That which overcomes/permeates all things is Tao. To Tao which is softest thing in the world, (but it is also the hardest) EVERTHING is Hard or Yang. Within this context Yin (Soft) ALWAYS overcomes/permeates Yang (Hard). Just as the Yang of Adrian’s hand moving through the Yin of air is continually surrounded by the air because of the Yin nature of air.

Tao accomplishes this permeation of all things “the natural way”, by “taking no action”, through “quiet being”, and shows the “value of non-action”, the “advantage [of]…doing nothing (with a purpose).”

These last comments are all various manners of interpreting the principle of Tao referred to as “wu-wei” which is commonly defined as “non-action” or “spontaneous action without contrived purpose”. What it means within the context of this verse is that Tao permeates all things as a natural consequence of its being not because is intends to do so. Just as the action of wave’s wears away rock not because the water intends to wear away the rock, but merely because it is a natural consequence of waves crashing upon rock. It occurs of itself according to the nature of water and rock not because there is any contrived intent to do wear away the rock.

[Scott R. Brown]

1) The wise man understands full well,
that wordless teaching can take place,
and that actions should occur
without the wish for self-advancement.

2) Yet benefit without action,
And experience without abstraction,
Are practiced by very few.

3) In all the world but few can know
Accomplishment apart from work,
Instruction when no words are used.

4) Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.

5) There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.

6) Therefore I know the benefit of unattached action.
The wordless teaching and unattached action are rarely seen.

This last section illustrates the consequence of following the Yin manifestation of Tao. By being insubstantial and behaving “without contrived intent” (wu-wei) benefits occur. This condition is accomplished through an act/behavior/attitude that occurs in a manner different from the familiar “TRYING” to accomplish a task. It is a condition of being that must be felt or directly apprehended and cannot be described or taught using words. This is why Ch’an masters tended to demonstrate their point through actions rather than words.

Words confuse the issue because they are only representations of things not the things themselves. Saying, “I am happy!” is not happiness. It is only words used to describe my condition of happiness. “Spontaneous action without a contrived purpose” is similar to Yoda’s words to Luke in “Return of the Jedi”. When Luke whines, “I am trying!” Yoda responds, “There is no trying, only DO or DO NOT!” Luke is wasting his energy focusing on “trying” and is thereby unable to accomplish his purpose. His mental focus is wrong and therefore he is out of accord with the Force/Tao. When he acquires the correct attitude his purpose occurs as a natural consequence of his attitude not because he is trying to do something.

“Teaching without words”, “experience without abstraction”, “Accomplishment apart from work”, “wordless teaching”, occurs as a natural consequence of being in accord with Tao. When our mind becomes insubstantial, it permeates all things and we become in accord with Tao as a natural consequence. Not because we are TRYING to become in accord with Tao, but because we perceive in a specific manner that brings about the accord as a natural consequence. This consequence occurs without the use of words, discussion, or instruction. That is not to say we do not use words, discussion or instruction as useful expedients. It means that the words, discussion and instruction are NOT the thing itself. They are fingers pointing us in the right direction. We are to focus upon where the finger is pointing not the finger itself. In the end the finger, words, discussion, instruction is to be discarded. When we perceive the Moon we ignore the finger, we tear up the sutras.

[Scott R. Brown]

so since the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao, and the name that can be named is not the eternal name, does that pretty much mean To each his own?

everyone's life is their 'tao', and its impossible to put a name on something that doesn't last here forever. so really everyone is right on this board since tao is within everything and outside of everything and its yin and yang!

Right and wrong apply to specific contexts. According to one context you are correct, however it is a limited context from one perspective, and but a part of a larger context from another perspective.

It all depends upon what one's purpose is. We could say any so and so's perspective on Tao is correct according to their personal needs and purpose, but that does not necessarily mean it is a comprehensive/complete understanding of Tao.

Therefore, from the perspective of complete understanding it could be considered wrong even though from their personal perspective it provides beneficial consequences and therefore could be considered a "right" perspective for them.

It then comes down to is good a satisfactory condition for the individual or is better more preferable, or is best more preferable? Some people are happy with good or better, others prefer to continue until they acquire the best! (This is a metaphor and should not be taken literally.)

[extrajoseph]

To each his own?
To own each his!

[Lucas]

In the world there is nothing more submissive and weak than water. Yet for attacking that which is hard and strong nothing can surpass it.
Lao Tzu

yet what you may find some-times that one way to overcome the soft and flexible is to become hard and strong at the right moment.

even in chen taiji there are moments for extreme strength and hardness. it is the unity of hard and soft that can give you the ability to find the points of balance, to know the when and why of it so to speak. and to apply accordingly.

though i am still quite a novice, these are principles i found through study before i met taiji, study of philosophy, life and my external arts (which i at this point dont make a full distinciton between external and internal. IMO you cannot be in balance in either extreme, it is unhealthy) now that taiji is in my life, i can view these principles from a new light.

joyful

[tai chi hermit]

perhaps there can be a place for philosophical discussion on the board somewhere...?

[RonH]

perhaps there can be a place for philosophical discussion on the board somewhere...?

At the moment, with the way the forums are structured, there's just here and the 'Kung Fu Forum' for philosophy. I've been feeling that there should be a specific one for a while. But, if a philosophical forum was made, should there be one for nei jia and one for wai jia or should it be combined?

[tai chi hermit]

combined, as long as it has philosophy. i think it helps no matter what style or person you are to be able to share thoughts and feelings.

[RonH]

So, who do we petition for another forum?

[cjurakpt]

perhaps there can be a place for philosophical discussion on the board somewhere...?
there has been a large amount of philosophical discussion in the past, mostly here, also in the main forum from time to time: and up to now there's really never been any need to devote a separate forum to that, since it usually involves a rather limited number of individuals (TaiChiBob, Scott Brown, mantis 108, myself tend to be some of the more egg-headed types, others contribute from time to time)


combined, as long as it has philosophy. i think it helps no matter what style or person you are to be able to share thoughts and feelings.
:confused: share feelings? maybe you want the Dr. Phil forum for that...


I've been feeling that there should be a specific one for a while.
looking for a platform to represent the Surrealists somewhere?


So, who do we petition for another forum?
Gene; and good luck with that - he is very unlikely to grant your request, but give it a try anyhow - you'll need a lot of people asking for it though (it took a long time to get the MMA one up and running, and that happened only after a large number of threads on the main forum were essentially MMA more than TCMA)

[mantis108]

if you want to talk ideograms, that's fine, but that doesn't set their meaning is set in stone any more than a phonetic language: for example, the "original" ideogram for "qi", this thing that's got people all worked up in a tizzy, is a visual description of the vapor rising up off of fermenting rice - overtime it took on a number of varied, though not totally unrelated, meanings: but who uses it in that original way much nowadays? or take the the character for cinnabar, dan: it depicts an oven buried in the ground cooking something (actually the process of turning cinnabar into mercury) - this can be taken literally, or can be seen as a metaphor for internal alchemical processes; also one of the translations of the character is "transformation", which can be applied in ways beyond the alchemical or metallurgical meaning; the character for Dao is a depiction of a person walking along a path - certainly a good metaphor for "way", but hardly the exact meaning as illustrated by the character itself; my point is that things are so because people say they are so, but regardless of what name/pictogram you assign to a given natural phenomennon or principle such as yin or yang, that phenomennon/principle a) doesn't care; b) behaves the same way regardless - other cultural have bserved this dualistic principle and the tendency of those principles to "flip" to anther state when they reach an extreme (Derrida calls this "differance" e.g.), so ultimately what you actually call those principles or the pictograph you assign to them doesn't matter - it's how you interrract with them in life

I believe we are some what getting into a "white horse isn't horse" arguement, which would eventually lead to discussion of ontology. I am not sure that's the direction others involve in this thread would appreciate at this point. Anyway, I believe it is prudent to sort out our respective perspectives whether it is objectively relative (rational) or subjectively absolute (mystical).


I'm not saying Lao Tzu wasn't learned or that his methodology wasn't far-reaching and in-depth - I was just pointing out that, like anyone, he necessarilly had a biased perspective, and I think that his aim was to deal with the immediacy of the there and then (Daoists are ultimately pragmatists) as opposed to writing something that would be handed down for generations; the fact that it does still have relevance makes sense given the use of yik ging, since it is essentially a formula for describing the way in which society functions, and those rules hold true the same for today as they did back then

Depending on the interpretation of the Dao De Jing, some have suggested that Lao Zi could have addressed his perspective early on in the first or second stanza or so, which IMHO seems to have been at once objectively relative (rational) and subjectively absolute (mystical). It would have been unimaginable, even during the last century, if not Einstien's theory of relativity.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I hate to switch philosophers in mid-discussion, but.. One of my favorites, Alan Watts, expresses my understanding of Tao quite well.. its truth is the experience.. it through understanding actual experiences that the principles are revealed.. or, "the menu is not the meal", the menu has no nourishment, experience the meal.. in over-intellectualization we tend to obscure its simple elegance..

My own understanding: Consciousness (God, Allah, Great Spirit. etc..).. "thinks", creates patterns of force/thought.. Energy, the raw material, flowing constantly.. as energy flows through the patterns created by thought, the "force of thought" modulates the vibrational frequencies of Energy through that pattern, shaping the Reality we all know and love.. TAO, the formless, shapeless, massless substance within which all this process is nourished, the cosmic enabler.... ever-present, never seen.. (AKA Change)..

There were three fishes swiming under a bridge.. they listened intently as the humans above described the remarkable physical and philosophical properties of "water".. so, one of the fishes proclaimed his quest to find the mystical "water".. he set out on his quest and his friends were a bit amused, who ever heard of such non-sense as "water".. after about three weeks the fish on a quest returned.. his friends mockingly asked, "well, did you find this "water" stuff?".. he replied, "yep, and you ain't gonna believe this $hit"...... Sometimes it's so much a part of "who we ARE" we simply can't see it, like the hammer that can't hit itself...

Be well...

[RonH]

One of the philosophers I'm partial towards is Descartes, especially meshing deduction with perception, which I see as representatives of yin and yang.

[scholar]

I don't know why people want to talk for days on end and fill reams of paper with their philosophies when they want to talk internal martial arts. I guess it is easier than training.

The following video gives a good demo of what "internal" means. Not what MMA people say it means, they slam it because they have never seen it, or the few that have seen it can't reproduce it - and not the "facile gesturing" that the fluffy bunnies say it is. It is a clear presentation why awareness of how we are put together translates into martial applications for taijiquan:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM

[cjurakpt]

I don't know why people want to talk for days on end and fill reams of paper with their philosophies when they want to talk internal martial arts. I guess it is easier than training.
you sound like kind of an angry dude - why so down on people for sharing their opinions on internal? why do you make sweeping generalizations about their motivation? and if you are so against talking, WTF are you doing reding and posting on the forum to begin with?


The following video gives a good demo of what "internal" means. Not what MMA people say it means, they slam it because they have never seen it, or the few that have seen it can't reproduce it - and not the "facile gesturing" that the fluffy bunnies say it is. It is a clear presentation why awareness of how we are put together translates into martial applications for taijiquan:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM


so, looking at the vid, basically internal is integrated biomechanics: for example, he talks about "swallowing the chest / plucking up the back", which, translated in contemporary biomechanics, is what happens when you have proper orientation of the thoracic spine / rib cage / sternum in context of the respiratory diaphragm's function (of course, you get global effects as well, via mediating aberrant sympathetic tone); it also has nice impications for lymphatic drainage, which helps with global inflammatory processes; and it coincides ith proper alignment of the cervical / occipital region as well as allows the waist to move more freely, probably at least in part by decreasing tonicity of quadratus luborum bilaterally, and the "kwa" (loins; inguinal region) to "open"; but fighting, I don't know - I think it's nice in theory and has some advantages at trapping / push-hands range (the whole suck and spit gig), but I just can't see someone trained purely in taiji methodology being successful against a typical UFC fighter who isn't interested in the minutae of so-called "internal" practice...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well, Scholar.. it seems that the video did a bunch of "talking".. down here, we tend do a bit more actual applications, you know, ChinNa, throws, one-on-one contact.. ALL based on Taiji Principles.. not so much sitting on the floor watching..

I'm not commenting on the instructor's abilities, they weren't actually demonstrated.. but, if you're going to complain about "people want to talk for days on end", you might want to post something other than a lecture.. just a thought..

Be Well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yikes, Chris posted while i was typing.. Chris, your point is well taken.. but, in defense of 'good Taiji" i train with a senior student of WCC Chen, and i am pleased to say that his Taiji is formidable at every level, AND.. he can teach it to even a dolt like me.. Jeff's capabilities are profound at "Taiji speed", but.. they really soar at combat speed.. his most functional advice: be natural.. stop contriving so much BS into your Taiji, speed and power come from natural movements, not complexities.. our Taiji is simple, relaxed, natural.. we don't conflict, we unite with our partners.. if we view them as opponents, we have already created the separation that mutes our "listening"..

That, and the study of human nature when stimulated by force.. so very much is predictable at every level of combat.. it is ridiculously simple to create the opportunities by minute adjustments of "connecting".. too much force simply sets off alerts in your partner, a natural soft touch is almost welcomed into the openings, then.. the key, Change, when it's too late.. another key, rooting in the front foot!! but, another time, it's late for us old-timers..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know why people want to talk for days on end and fill reams of paper with their philosophies when they want to talk internal martial arts. I guess it is easier than training.

The error is not in the enjoyment and benefit other's receive from discussing philosophical topics, but in the narrow opinion that, for others, it takes the place of training, or is of less value than training. Learning occurs when individuals play with ideas. Thoughts are clarified and insights gained. It is a reflection of narrow thinking to ridicule the enjoyment and benefit others receive through discussion. No one has intimated their thought processes take the place of training. In fact proper training stimulates thought processes.

Through training insights occur. Through discussion those insights are compared with the insights gained by others and greater insight is gained. It narrows our experience and reflects greater foolishness to not discuss ideas than to do so.

Internal practices are by their inherent focus mental practices. Mental processes are thought processes. All discussion is, is the sharing, comparing and contrasting of ideas. This process is a benefit to all endeavors, but can be a detriment if it takes the place of action when the the thought processes are intended to improve the action.

To assume others are not practicing or implementing the insights gained through thinking and discussing without actually knowing this to be occurring is foolishness.


The following video gives a good demo of what "internal" means. Not what MMA people say it means, they slam it because they have never seen it, or the few that have seen it can't reproduce it - and not the "facile gesturing" that the fluffy bunnies say it is. It is a clear presentation why awareness of how we are put together translates into martial applications for taijiquan:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM

"Talk is cheap" means you can get opinions for free, yet not all opinions are of equal value. It DOES NOT mean that talk is useless or of no value at all. The lecturer is talking after all isn't he? It is similar to Lao Tzu who says that the Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao, but then goes on to talk about it. Through thought we learn, through discussion we learn, through action we learn. We learn less if one of these elements is missing.

[cjurakpt]

Greetings..

Yikes, Chris posted while i was typing.. Chris, your point is well taken.. but, in defense of 'good Taiji" i train with a senior student of WCC Chen, and i am pleased to say that his Taiji is formidable at every level, AND.. he can teach it to even a dolt like me.. Jeff's capabilities are profound at "Taiji speed", but.. they really soar at combat speed.. his most functional advice: be natural.. stop contriving so much BS into your Taiji, speed and power come from natural movements, not complexities.. our Taiji is simple, relaxed, natural.. we don't conflict, we unite with our partners.. if we view them as opponents, we have already created the separation that mutes our "listening"..

That, and the study of human nature when stimulated by force.. so very much is predictable at every level of combat.. it is ridiculously simple to create the opportunities by minute adjustments of "connecting".. too much force simply sets off alerts in your partner, a natural soft touch is almost welcomed into the openings, then.. the key, Change, when it's too late.. another key, rooting in the front foot!! but, another time, it's late for us old-timers..

Be well..
I in no way discount the nature of your experience, and I would echo it in my own - what my pioint is is that all of the above can be achieved in any number of ways, and in more direct ways that will lead to a higher level fof fighting skill,plain and simple

however, doing so would not allow for the nature of the experience that you describe - the way in which taiji "fighting" is trained by yourself examines numerous issues that a UFC fighter would probably not beinterested in - he wil focus on other things - his job is not to become less uptight, less rigid as opposed to those of us looking for interesting ways to free ourselves from some of the chians acquired in life - I mean, be honest - you or I are not going to enter NHB fighting, and our realities robably don't require serious self-defense training - but what we do enjoy is the discovery that occurs when "fighting" with the sort of gentleman's agreement that taiji pushing and playing and even sparring entail - we get to cut loose a bit but with some subtext of self development, some sense of refinement as a result being achieved - we can talk about how we unite and listen to our oppoenent, but be honest - we are really looking at it as a template for doing the same with ourselves, because we believe in the examined life, and taiji is one vehicle that does so very efficiently, by grounding our psychological advancement in concrete physical terms...

well, anyway, pardon my taking liberties and telling you what you're training for - i am of course making assumptions, please correct me if I am wrong - but this is the general point I am trying to tease out, please feel free to add you own perspective on it as you like...

[Scott R. Brown]

...we don't conflict, we unite with our partners.. if we view them as opponents, we have already created the separation that mutes our "listening"...

I totally agree with this Bob. Separation or conflict begins in the mind as an attitude. Emotional detachment from the apparent hostility of an attack allows one to "listen", unify with the energy of the opponent more effectively.


That, and the study of human nature when stimulated by force.. so very much is predictable at every level of combat.. it is ridiculously simple to create the opportunities by minute adjustments of "connecting".. too much force simply sets off alerts in your partner, a natural soft touch is almost welcomed into the openings, then.. the key, Change, when it's too late.. another key, rooting in the front foot!! but, another time, it's late for us old-timers..

These Tai Chi principles are also very effective on a psychological level. I learned this dealing with felons for 12+ years.

[RonH]

These Tai Chi principles are also very effective on a psychological level. I learned this dealing with felons for 12+ years.

Serves you right for trying to sell drugs to criminals. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Chris,

It is important to remember that most fights are not actually UFC type fights and at our ages it is unlikely an encounter would take the form of a dual which is all a UFC and other professional fights are. When the context changes the rules change.

I am reminded of a fight between two of Alexander the Great's hanger's on. One was a warrior, the other a pankration champion. During one of their drinking parties the soldier riduculed the pankration fighter for not being a REAL fighter. The pankration fighter then challenged the warrior and soundly defeated him. The soldier then picked up a spear and ran the pankration fighter clean through. The pankration fighter won the battle, but lost the war.

Each individual possessed a skill that was effective according to a context. Change the context and the skill is less effective. I don't like the tendency to compare all fighting skills to professional fighters. While they are certainly skilled in their fields of study, all one need do is change the context to prevail over their exceptional skills. I like the hammer to the back of the head method or a nice .357. Change the context of the fight to a method beyond the skill level of your opponent and you increase the likelihood of prevailing. Pit a swordsman against a knifefighter and the knifefighter looks like an amateur.

[Scott R. Brown]

Serves you right for trying to sell drugs to criminals. :p

I get HIGH on life man!!!:D

[RonH]

I get HIGH on life man!!!:D

You get high on acid. Just remember, when you do, go limp and you can slid under the door. ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: Your points are not only valid but well taken.. i am most fortunate to train in an area that has an abundance of gifted martial artists from many lineages.. Artists that are willing to explore the depths of their art and its potentials.. i do get to train with grapplers, BJJ players, Muay Thai animals (just kidding, they are my biggest challenge).. and, i have a teacher that can balance this dynamic group through his understanding of "principles", AND.. he is a great teacher of those principles..

I think we do a disservice to Taiji by separating it from the other MAs as having a "higher purpose".. i agree that the benefits of Taiji are superior to other MAs i am familiar with, greatly superior as a "Life" skill/art.. but, my experience suggests that Taiji, as a Martial Art, must stand-up to the tests of Martial Arts.. it is beyond this that Taiji reveals its greater benefits.. as a Martial Art, Taiji utilizes the unexpected, it relies on refined nuance rather than brute force, a balancing of principles.. recent times have seen a preponderance of "Taiji QiGong" styles, Taiji with little or no Martial skill.. but, there are still Taiji players that can and do exemplify the highest Martial skills, and.. it is a thing of great beauty and power..

I do not think we compare "apples and oranges" when we compare Taiji to UFC/NHB/Cage venues.. we're all "oranges", but at different stages of development.. the UFC player is like a green orange, it is hard when it hits you, it hurts.. but it is bitter and sour, it has no nutritional value or staisfactory result.. Taiji, is like a well-ripened orange, still firm but now it has matured into a nutritional and pleasant experience, a balanced experience.. then, there is the over-ripened orange, soft, mushy, rotting.. too much "woo woo", too little substance.. when we (our local group) play the more intense combat arts, it is interesting to observe/experience the balanced contrasts as the Taiji engages the MMA player.. the MMA player is explosive, intense and strong.. but, he loses focus when the Taiji seems to disappear and emerge at his weakest (less substantial) points.. the MMA guys find non-resistance troubling since many of their most reliable techniques require resistance to be effective, absent the resistance they must "change".. now, the Taiji player has trained most of his skills in the Art of "Change", just as the MMA player makes the decision to change, the strength of Taiji emerges.. good listening reveals the instant the MMA player decides to change, Taiji simply takes advantage of the neutrality during the change.. it's brilliant to watch/experience.. but, acquiring that skill-set has its difficulties, not the least of which is the "perception" that it simply can't stand-up to the brutality of MMA.. that is a self-defeating perception, we need to stop making excuses, and get down to developing Taiji's potential..

No, i have no delusions of getting in the "Cage" with a 27 year-old world-class combat artist.. but, neither will i be subjugated by him in a normal situation.. or, if i am, he will know that Taiji is no lame Art, he will feel its sting.. i have the deepest respect for all sincere Martial Artists, they have engaged life at its most revealing edge, they challenge themselves beyond the common man's understanding.. they reap self-revelations others only dream of.. and, Taiji has revealed itself to "me" as the most beneficial of those paths.. it is a path that is balanced between doing and contemplating..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Wow Bob,

I think you should change your screen name from TaiChiBob

to

BadAssMoFoSomBiiachBob


:D:D:D:D:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Bill: not likely.. i'm just willing to test myself at levels i had once dismissed.. it's great fun, deeply rewarding, and although i'm too old to be a "contender", i hope we can pave the way for others younger to begin restoring Taiji to its venerable legacy.. i hope you are of the same mind-set as well..

BTW, how's it going.. we just had our first good local workshop on Taiji apps with Jeff.. it went really well.. we're going to do it monthly.. when will we see you again?

Be well..

[woliveri]

Hey Bob,

Just messing with ya!..

I'll be coming back to the states in November for an undetermined length of time. I'll be a couple of hours away but would really like to get up and see you'z guy'z up there.

Would love to see what you've been getting into lately.

I'll keep an eye on your Tai Chi Meetup schedule.. and on this board to see the happenings.

Best,

Bill

[AJM]

I totally agree with this Bob. Separation or conflict begins in the mind as an attitude. Emotional detachment from the apparent hostility of an attack allows one to "listen", unify with the energy of the opponent more effectively.



These Tai Chi principles are also very effective on a psychological level. I learned this dealing with felons for 12+ years.
I experienced this as a correctional officer as well. Intent was universally understood. Hostility was an abomination.