Ten Tigers of Canton - Who are they and what did they do?

[The Xia]

I know what some of the more well known members practiced, but what about the others? What exactly did they do together? And how did they influence each others' Gung Fu?
Ok so I'll start out with a list. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Wong Fei Hung - Hung Gar
Wong Kei Ying - Hung Gar
Soo Hak Fu - Hak Fu Mun
Wong Yan Lam - Lion's Roar
Tid Kiu Sam - Hung Gar
So Chan – I think it was Beggar style but I’m not so sure of that one.
Tid Chi Cham -???
Wong Ching Ho - ???
Lai Yun Chiu - ???
Tam Chai Hok - ???
And there was one mention of Chow Tai being in there. I don’t know anything about him though.
So can anyone fill in those gaps?
So far, here is what I can gather of their relationships. I think that Wong Fei Hung (or Wong Kei Ying) got Tid Seen Kuen from Tid Kiu Sam, element punches and (I think) the crane’s beak from Wong Yan Lam, and Black Tiger techniques from Soo Hak Fu. Soo Hak Fu may have gotten Tid Seen Kuen from Wong Kei Ying. Wong Yan Lam may have gotten Fu Jow techniques from Wong Fei Hung or Wong Kei Ying. Please feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong. Feel free to add as well. And what did the Ten Tigers of Canton actually DO together?

[mok]

I know what some of the more well known members practiced, but what about the others? What exactly did they do together? And how did they influence each others' Gung Fu?
Ok so I'll start out with a list. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Wong Fei Hung - Hung Gar
Wong Kei Ying - Hung Gar
Soo Hak Fu - Hak Fu Mun
Wong Yan Lam - Lion's Roar
Tid Kiu Sam - Hung Gar
So Chan – I think it was Beggar style but I’m not so sure of that one.
Tid Chi Cham -???
Wong Ching Ho - ???
Lai Yun Chiu - ???
Tam Chai Hok - ???
And there was one mention of Chow Tai being in there. I don’t know anything about him though.
So can anyone fill in those gaps?
So far, here is what I can gather of their relationships. I think that Wong Fei Hung (or Wong Kei Ying) got Tid Seen Kuen from Tid Kiu Sam, element punches and (I think) the crane’s beak from Wong Yan Lam, and Black Tiger techniques from Soo Hak Fu. Soo Hak Fu may have gotten Tid Seen Kuen from Wong Kei Ying. Wong Yan Lam may have gotten Fu Jow techniques from Wong Fei Hung or Wong Kei Ying. Please feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong. Feel free to add as well. And what did the Ten Tigers of Canton actually DO together?


From what I read, Wong Fei Hong wasn't one of the ten, though his father Wong Kei Ying was. Instead Wong Fei Hong was known as the "tiger after the ten"... that might leave place for Chow Tai, though I do not know the names of all ten, so maybe.

[Kung_Who?]

According to what My Sifu has told us about it, yes, Wong Fei Hung was counted as one of the Tigers, but not as one of the original 10. He was called the 11th, and yes, I believe the Tiger after the 10 is another I have heard tale of.

Basicly, though Wong Fei Hung was not one of the original 10, he was and is considered just as important and is respected as as if he was. Yes, His Father was one of the original 10.


From what I read, Wong Fei Hong wasn't one of the ten, though his father Wong Kei Ying was. Instead Wong Fei Hong was known as the "tiger after the ten"... that might leave place for Chow Tai, though I do not know the names of all ten, so maybe.

[4 Dragons]

This is on Wong Kiew kit's site...

All the "Ten Tigers of Guangdong were Shaolin lay disciples. They did not studied in the Shaolin Monastery itself, but were directly connected to the southern Shaolin Monastery at Jiulian Mountain or at Quanzhow, having learnt from monks or lay disciples who in turn were from the monasteries before they were burnt.

Although they lived in the later part of the Qing Dynasty in Guangdong Province, they did not appear at the same time as a group. (A Hong Kong video series showing them at the same time and place, is fictitious.) They were about two or three generations after the Five Shaolin Ancestors. The Ten Tigers were Thit Kew Sam, Wong Yein Lam, Wong Khei Yin, Su Hak Fu, Su Hut Yee, Chow Thye, Tham Chai Wen, Wong Cheng Ho, Tit Chee Chan, and See Yu Leong.

Thit Kew Sam was the foremost of the Ten Guangdong Tigers. Thit Kew Sam, which literally means "Iron Bridge Three", was his nickname because his arms were very powerful; his actual name was Leong Khuen. His internal force came mainly from his training of Thit Seen Khuen, or Iron Wire Set.

Wong Yein Lam was a master of Hap Ka (Family of Knights) Kungfu. Hap Ka Kungfu originated from Lama Kungfu of Tibet, but had been modified and taught by Shaolin monks or lay masters. Wong Yein Lam's teacher was a Shaolin monk called Sheng Loong.

Wong Khei Yin was a disciple of Luk Ah Choy and the father of Wong Fei Hoong. His was well known for his "no-shadow kicks".

Su Hak Fu was a master of the Black Tiger Style. He was good at the tiger-claw. "Hak Fu" actually means "Black Tiger"; it is uncertain whether it was his real name or nickname.

Su Hut Yee, which means Beggar Su, was originally rich but squandered away his money. He was a master of Hoong Ka Kungfu. He learned from Chan Fook, a monk from the southern Shaolin Monastery, and was probably the same Chan Fook who started my lineage from Uncle Righteousness. (Please see below.)

Chow Thye was well known for his staff, known as Tai Cho Chooi Wan Khun, or "Soul-Chasing Staff of the First Emperor". He shot to fame when he defeated an international boxing champion from France.

Tham Chai Wen was known as "Three-Leg Tham" because of his three kicking techniques. They were tiger-tail kick, weeping-floor kick, and organ-seeking kick.

Wong Cheng Ho was famous for his Iron Head. He learned his kungfu in a Guangdong temple from a monk belonging to the Shaolin tradition.

Tit Chee Chan means "Iron Finger Chan"; his real name was unknown. Naturally he was expert at the Iron Finger Art.

See Yu Leong was known for the Red Sand Palm. This is an advanced Shaolin art using internal force which leaves a red mark on the skin of an opponent after being struck.

I forgot where I got this from...

Tiit Kiu Saam (1815 - 1887) was known as 'the great master of the Hong Fist' and was one of the Ten Tigers of Canton, a group of ten of the top Chinese martial arts masters in Guangdong towards the end of the Qing Dynasty (1644–1912).

Born 'Liang Kun' in 1815, he studied martial arts in his youth under the famous Shaolin master Li Huzi (Bearded Li, also known as 'Golden Hook'). He loved studying martial techniques, and travelled around in search of friends and great masters, frequently seeking out the company of Buddhist monks. Dedicated training in Shaolin techniques helped him to develop a rock-solid stance. He went on to teach martial arts at the Guangzhi dye-works at Rainbow Bridge in Guangzhou and he became an extremely well-known figure.

He was born during the reign of the Emperor Jiaqing (1796 - 1821), and died in the 12th or 13th year of the reign of Emperor Guang Xu (1887 or 1888). His death was caused by over-zealous training in the '36 Point Copper Ring Pole' technique, under the monk Yuan Guang at Haichuang Monastery. He had long been an opium smoker; the monk advised him to break the habit and train in the pole technique instead. But he pushed himself too hard for his age, fell ill and died around the age of 70.

He is best known for his 'Iron Bridges' and the fist form Iron Wire Fist. His Iron Wire Fist is the highest level in most Hung Gar schools and his work is very important to the current Hung Gar Kung Fu system.

[lkfmdc]

This is on Wong Kiew kit's site...

Wong Yein Lam was a master of Hap Ka (Family of Knights) Kungfu. Hap Ka Kungfu originated from Lama Kungfu of Tibet, but had been modified and taught by Shaolin monks or lay masters. Wong Yein Lam's teacher was a Shaolin monk called Sheng Loong.



Wong Kiew Kit should stick to what he knows, like making it rain with his chi power :rolleyes:

Wong Yan Lam, Hop Ga, Lama Pai, Lion's Roar etc all have NO CONNECTION to Shaolin. Sing LUng wasn't a shaolin monk, he never even stepped foot in a shaolin temple

what an arse

[jmd161]

In speaking with my sifu, he said that there were two groups of the Ten Tigers. Wong Fei Hung belonged to the second group. As far as Hak Fu Mun and it's Iron Wire set and obvious Lama influence. It is attributed to the interaction of the Ten Tigrs. Like was mentioned they were not of the same time line, but it is said that Wong Kei Yin and Soo Hak Fu (Su So) were known friends and exchanged a great deal.

The problem with Shaolin is that everyone has a story of how their art originated from Shaolin, and that we know is not true. Although Soo Hak Fu created Hak Fu Mun Shaolin had already had some black tiger sets. Soo Hak Fu was taught these sets and other arts being exchanged within Shaolin at the time, and created his own style. While Soo Hak Fu is best known for his black tiger he was also known for being very well hated and feared. This is when he came up with his Chopsticks and Bowl weapon set, as he was a very public person.

He also had his own drunken style/sets that he incorprated into Hak Fu Mun along with his own unique Monkey sets. Hak Fu Mun while containing a Iron Wire (Tit Kid Suen) (sp) set, it's not identical in any way to Hung Kuens. So it leads you to believe it was either altered or not from Hung Kuen at all. I myself haven't learned our Iron Wire set, but my sifu says it's much more martial in intent and application than Hung Kuens. I know that other sister styles of Hung Kuen like Hung Fut and Jow Gar have Iron Wire sets also, which don't look like Hung Kuens, atleast to my experience.

Ross, If you know more could you please share any info you have on the subject? Many of us are only trying to tie large gaps together, we may not have first hand information like you in some cases. So what may seem silly to you, might be the only bits of theroy we have.



jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

Golden Hook Li (bearded Li) happens to also be Sing Lung under a different name. Tit Kiuh Sam actually studied with him BEFORE Wong Yan Lam did

[chasincharpchui]

i can't remember where i read it

but tarm sarm beat the sh!t out of chow tai

chow tai's tai jo jui wun kwan was no match for tarm sarm

[sanjuro_ronin]

In speaking with my sifu, he said that there were two groups of the Ten Tigers. Wong Fei Hung belonged to the second group. As far as Hak Fu Mun and it's Iron Wire set and obvious Lama influence. It is attributed to the interaction of the Ten Tigrs. Like was mentioned they were not of the same time line, but it is said that Wong Kei Yin and Soo Hak Fu (Su So) were known friends and exchanged a great deal.

The problem with Shaolin is that everyone has a story of how their art originated from Shaolin, and that we know is not true. Although Soo Hak Fu created Hak Fu Mun Shaolin had already had some black tiger sets. Soo Hak Fu was taught these sets and other arts being exchanged within Shaolin at the time, and created his own style. While Soo Hak Fu is best known for his black tiger he was also known for being very well hated and feared. This is when he came up with his Chopsticks and Bowl weapon set, as he was a very public person.

He also had his own drunken style/sets that he incorprated into Hak Fu Mun along with his own unique Monkey sets. Hak Fu Mun while containing a Iron Wire (Tit Kid Suen) (sp) set, it's not identical in any way to Hung Kuens. So it leads you to believe it was either altered or not from Hung Kuen at all. I myself haven't learned our Iron Wire set, but my sifu says it's much more martial in intent and application than Hung Kuens. I know that other sister styles of Hung Kuen like Hung Fut and Jow Gar have Iron Wire sets also, which don't look like Hung Kuens, atleast to my experience.

Ross, If you know more could you please share any info you have on the subject? Many of us are only trying to tie large gaps together, we may not have first hand information like you in some cases. So what may seem silly to you, might be the only bits of theroy we have.



jeff:)

From what I have gathered over the last couple of years if investigating, the Iron Wire set, in many forms and in many "lengths", exsists in many systems, it is NOT the "possession" of Hung ga, BUT many other systems that have the Iron wire have "borrowed" it from Hung Ga, case in point the "iron Mantis" system.

[The Xia]

From what I have gathered over the last couple of years if investigating, the Iron Wire set, in many forms and in many "lengths", exsists in many systems, it is NOT the "possession" of Hung ga, BUT many other systems that have the Iron wire have "borrowed" it from Hung Ga, case in point the "iron Mantis" system.
I would think that the Tid Sin Kuen comes from Hung Ga and found it's way elsewhere. Based on information I know, it seems to me that Hung Ga is a sort of "great connector" of Southern Gung Fu. I see striking relations to all sorts of styles.

[southernkf]

I would think that the Tid Sin Kuen comes from Hung Ga and found it's way elsewhere. Based on information I know, it seems to me that Hung Ga is a sort of "great connector" of Southern Gung Fu. I see striking relations to all sorts of styles.

My understanding is that Tiet Sin Kuen is not from Hung Gar but from a different style which can still be found which obviously traces back to Tit Kiu Saam. I have heard it isn't considered their most advanced form, though this is second hand info.

Hung Gar is indeed a collaborative system. Much seems to have been brought in depending on your exact lineage. Oral tradition suggests the crane was added to the tiger. More recent and likely history includes Wong Fei Hung adding components from atleast Lama/Lions Roar kung fu as well as components from Tit Kiu Saam. Lam Sai Wing added some of his family stuff and Lam Jo (again if your from that lineage) added various northern forms (link Bung Bo and others I beleive), Pek Kwar forms, and created forms influenced from other styles like the Lau Gar Kuen which I heard was influenced by a friend from the Mok family. Many of the weapons are also borrowed.

[South Paw]

History of South Shaolin (http://home.planet.nl/~padbe017/Nan_Shaolin_1.htm)

[TenTigers]

they say Wong Fei-Hung was well known for his use of the flying thallium. It might be a misprint.Perhaps he was well known for flying on valium.

[South Paw]

they say Wong Fei-Hung was well known for his use of the flying thallium. It might be a misprint.Perhaps he was well known for flying on valium.

Good observation!
You can never tell if a Flying Goose is doped.

It is obvious a misprint in the original. I am not sure if he was known for his single whip or the use of the ropedart.
Does someone know?

[PM]

Ten Tigers: that was good won, LOL :-)

South Paw: flying weight (although our single chain whip also comes from Wong Feihung)

[South Paw]

South Paw: flying weight (although our single chain whip also comes from Wong Feihung)
Flying weight = Rope weight?
Flying dart = Rope dart?
Flying Goose = Wong Fei Hung?

[TenTigers]

Flying weight = Rope weight?
Flying dart = Rope dart?
Flying Goose = Wong Fei Hung?

out of curiosity, could the flying goose be a hidden Hung Mun reference, as goose is also used in Hung Sing and I believe has hidden patriotic meanings.
HSK might be able to shed some light on this.

(yeah, it's an old thread. The threads here have gotten boring)

[taai gihk yahn]

(yeah, it's an old thread. The threads here have gotten boring)

Ten Tigers: Necromancer King of Canton!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Flying Goose = Wong Fei Hung?

Reading that makes me think that WFH used to beat people with a goose !
The sheer awesomeness of such an act defies words !!

[Scott R. Brown]

Reading that makes me think that WFH used to beat people with a goose !
The sheer awesomeness of such an act defies words !!

No, No, No....you are close, but you've got it all wrong!

WFH went around "goosing" people, NOT hitting them with a goose! He was a noted practical joker!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, No, No....you are close, but you've got it all wrong!

WFH went around "goosing" people, NOT hitting them with a goose! He was a noted practical joker!:eek:

Sorry dude, that isn't as cool, but it does explain the yee gee kim yueng ma stance, LOL !

[David Jamieson]

so, quick review. The ten tigers and their styles were:

1) Wong Yan-lam - Lama Pai
2) Wong Ching-ho - 9 dragon fist
3) Sou Hak-fu - Iron Palm (created black tiger style too)
4) Wong Kei-ying - Hung Kuen
5) Lai Yan-chiu - seven star
6) So Chan - drunken style
7) Leung Kwan - Iron wire
8) Chan Cheung-tai -eagle claw
9) Tam Chai-kwan - Crane
10) Chow Tai - Baguazhang

Disputes?

There are apparently 3 sets of 5 elders as well.

set one: (the kung fu five elders)

1) Ji Sin Sim Si = abbot of southern shaolin
2) Ng Mui Dai Si = nun creator of wing chun
3) Bak Mei Dou Yan = traitorous taoist monk who burned down shaolin
4) Fung Dou Dak = a taosit sage and kung fu master
5) Miu Hin = a shaolin lay disciple


set two: (the shaolin survivor 5 elders- the original hung mun "Fan Ching Fuk Ming" - "Overthrow the Ching, Restore the Ming")

1) Choi Tak-Chung
2) Fong Tai-Hung
3) Ma Chiu-Hing
4) Wu Tak-Tai
5) Lee Sik-Hoi

set three: (the five family elders)

1) Hung Hei Gun
2) Lau Sam Ngan
3) Choy Gau Yi
4) Li Yau San
5) Mok Ching Giu


Set three is likely most familiar to all us southern style kung fu guys.

1=patriarch of Hung Gar according to legend
2=patriarch of Lau Gar
3-patriarch of Choy Li Fut
4= Patriarch of Choy li Fut
5= Patriarch of Mok Gar

Ok, disputes?

still bored? :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's awesome, pointless and unverifiable, but awesome.

[TenTigers]

Tam Jai Gwun, or Three Legged Tam was known for kicking techniques. Supposedly giving us the Mo Ying Geuk, Fu Mei Geuk, and either Lung Mei Geuk, or Dink Geuk.
Where did you hear Chow Tai doing bagua? One of the reasons I was checking out this thread was my curiosity of the Bagua/Hung-Ga connection. There is a movement that repeats in every pillar form, which is exactly like single palm change (Wild goose (there it is again-goose!) leaves the flock (what the flock?)
I know Bagua is a Northern system, but Lion's Roar isn't wholy Southern either.
Anyway, if Chow Tai indeed practiced BaGua, it would make sense. If he was a purely fictional character...well, I will continue the myth...Hey, if Wing Chun guys can tell their Ng Mui story....

[CLFNole]

Chow Tai was known for his "Soul Chasing Staff" never heard of the baat gwa. A descedent of his has posted on one of the forums and he had learned buk sing CLF so don't know if Chow Tai had connections with Tam Sam or not.

Also I believe So Chan (So Haat Yee) was also hung kuen just he got drunk a lot and was made famous by Yuen Siu Tien in many drunken movies.

[mig]

they say Wong Fei-Hung was well known for his use of the flying thallium. It might be a misprint.Perhaps he was well known for flying on valium.


All right don't forget that was the time of Opium and even the Iron man died of overdose as the legend goes. Who knows what kind of illusions one has when you are doped.

Mig

[mooyingmantis]

Where did you hear Chow Tai doing bagua? One of the reasons I was checking out this thread was my curiosity of the Bagua/Hung-Ga connection. There is a movement that repeats in every pillar form, which is exactly like single palm change (Wild goose (there it is again-goose!) leaves the flock (what the flock?)

Wild Goose Leaves the Flock is also the name of a movement used in a few Northern Praying Mantis forms. I think it is probably a generic Chinese quan pu element.

[David Jamieson]

we can't forget: dayan qigong

(wild goose)

:)

[David Jamieson]

That's awesome, pointless and unverifiable, but awesome.

Thank you. My next song is about subtraction.

Take it away...

[ShaolinDan]

I don't know any goose name techniques, but
I took a class on Chinese poetry once and I know that the lone goose (i.e. that 'left the flock') was a common image in poems of loneliness/alienation/banishment. Which were a common theme too. Very romantic.