whats wrong with this from a trad cma perspective ?

[golden arhat]

this
wushu spear http://youtube.com/watch?v=a14_hZQIJqY


as opposed to a trad form like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=WI_zSP8_DpU


both seem equally pointless but where do u make the distinction between good and bad :confused:
especcially on the last one at 00:34

[David Jamieson]

who uses spears anymore?

classical weapon training is about preservation of an art and the posterity of doing so.

It's only pointless from one perspective.

Kickboxing is a pointless exercise from the viewpoint of practical marksmanship.

Life is pointless from the viewpoint if the nihilist.

in context to the study of kungfu the wushu practice has additional elemenst which contradict good martial principle. there is hyperextension of the limbs, showboat energy wasting and so on. with the trad version, every thrust is an attempt at a pierce, with the wushu version, this is not the case.

hope that helps. :)

[golden arhat]

who uses spears anymore?

classical weapon training is about preservation of an art and the posterity of doing so.

It's only pointless from one perspective.

Kickboxing is a pointless exercise from the viewpoint of practical marksmanship.

Life is pointless from the viewpoint if the nihilist.

in context to the study of kungfu the wushu practice has additional elemenst which contradict good martial principle. there is hyperextension of the limbs, showboat energy wasting and so on. with the trad version, every thrust is an attempt at a pierce, with the wushu version, this is not the case.

hope that helps. :)

it does to an extent (y)

but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?

or the part where he has it behind his back and hitting with the blunt end of the spear ? (not slamming just thrusting )

:S

[RonH]

it does to an extent (y)

but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?

or the part where he has it behind his back and hitting with the blunt end of the spear ? (not slamming just thrusting )

:S

Normally, it comes down to the skill of the user than the technique itself, but the skipping seemed very odd. I guess if someone tried rolling marbles against the fighter to try to trip him? That's the only thing I can think of. But, exhibition forms are just that. They are designed more around showing off than martial applications. It's not about energy conservation or speed in ending fights.

Thrusting with the butt of a staff/spear is the same as thrusting with a point. The point is to hit the target. Some areas are more susceptible to injury than other parts, like the throat, if hit with the butt end of a mini mag flashlight or with the emission end of a gun. A point will pierce the skin, but a blunt end will damage without piercing.

[MasterKiller]

That skipping technique is in a lot of traditional long fist forms. It's in my broadsword form, and in two of my open-hand sets. You'll see it in Kwan Dao forms, spear forms, etc...

[TenTigers]

the skipping is kicking sand-from what I've been told-ok, makes sense, but why do it several times? Frankly, if it were me, I'd feel downright silly.

[johnv]

I know a lot of traditional forms have been modified to incorporate "wushu like" moves, so that they look more impressive. Now I don't know either of the forms you posted, but it is always possible that the second one isn't 100% traditional.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lending a Japanese perspective to it, the spear kata's build some solid wrist power and shoulder power, thrusting and twisting a 12ft spear is quite a freaking workout.
From a practical standpoint the skill transference to a "comparable" modern weapon is less than with a Bo Staff, but it is still there.

Then again JMA weapons forms tend to be basic, powerful and fast, not "flowery"

[xcakid]

Weapons training has a lot of depth to it much like open hand forms training.

1) balance
2) conditioning
3) power generation
4) proper trantsitioning
5) coordination


With regards to spear and staff forms, they use a lot of up and down motion that works on cardio. Conditions forearms. Works on distancing and depth perception. The other aspect of weapons forms is weapons sparring. Typically done with staff, straight sword and broadsword. Not many instructors do this. One, the equipment is expensive. Two, most instructors DO NOT KNOW THE APPLICATIONS of the forms.

Translating weapons to street application is a bit more tricky. This is a sticking point with me. No one carries around these weapons anymore. We carry knives, guns, etc. But CMA or any other MA, did not evolve and begin teaching marksmanship. I saw Krav Maga on TV, and they do incorporate firearms and knives into their weapons training. More realistic I would say. Now back to CMA weapons. It does teach you to work with something in your hands, which is better than nothing. It teaches you how to work with bladed, blunt, long and short weapons. With regards specifically to staff and spear, you are able to pick up a pole and weild it effectively(granted your sifu showed you the application to the form). With regards to the broad sword, it translates well to a baseball bat. The straight sword translates to holidng a car antenna.

Having said all that, I use CMA weapons to work on stance training, conditioning, balance, and preservation of the history of my style. As I have posted before, I do not believe ANY Martial Arts have any any street application that is the end all be all. Any martial art out there practice blocking a bullet or having someone unknowingly stab you in the back technique? How bout getting jumped by ten big guys with clubs and a shotgun. Any MA got a fool proof defense against that? Dont think so, yet it happens on the street. How bout a defense against 2 teens coming into a space and shooting it up? How bout someone walking up to you and just smashing your face in while his buddies kicks you to the ground and takes your wallet. How bout a defense against some guy walking into a cafe and blowing himself, and you, up. Well I guess if you are in MMA you can hug the guy and save the rest of the people in the cafe. Bottomline, street confrontation are unpredictable.

Pointless is based on the perspective of the individual. I believe MMA is pointless. Doesn't mean its not effective, but based on all the street fights I have seen and some involved in, MMA is a sure way to get your butt kicked and put into a hospital. I believe SUV's are pointless, that's cause I am single. To a married guy with 4 kids, that viewpoint may be different.

Classical weapons forms = pointless.
That would depend on what you want out of it.

[Yao Sing]

That skipping technique is in a lot of traditional long fist forms. It's in my broadsword form, and in two of my open-hand sets. You'll see it in Kwan Dao forms, spear forms, etc...


the skipping is kicking sand-from what I've been told-ok, makes sense, but why do it several times? Frankly, if it were me, I'd feel downright silly.

That skipping, I was told, is Monkey footwork and is a retreating kick. It's done to disrupt a forward advance (not intended to do much damage so no sense pointing out how weak it would be) and should cover more distance (after all, you ARE retreating).

It's in one of my broadsword forms but only a couple of times. That video showed it poorly executed and repeated way too many times.

I agree that this set has been modified for performance.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?

Reply]
He is supposed to be running, the floor is too short.

[golden arhat]

Weapons training has a lot of depth to it much like open hand forms training.

1) balance
2) conditioning
3) power generation
4) proper trantsitioning
5) coordination


With regards to spear and staff forms, they use a lot of up and down motion that works on cardio. Conditions forearms. Works on distancing and depth perception. The other aspect of weapons forms is weapons sparring. Typically done with staff, straight sword and broadsword. Not many instructors do this. One, the equipment is expensive. Two, most instructors DO NOT KNOW THE APPLICATIONS of the forms.

Translating weapons to street application is a bit more tricky. This is a sticking point with me. No one carries around these weapons anymore. We carry knives, guns, etc. But CMA or any other MA, did not evolve and begin teaching marksmanship. I saw Krav Maga on TV, and they do incorporate firearms and knives into their weapons training. More realistic I would say. Now back to CMA weapons. It does teach you to work with something in your hands, which is better than nothing. It teaches you how to work with bladed, blunt, long and short weapons. With regards specifically to staff and spear, you are able to pick up a pole and weild it effectively(granted your sifu showed you the application to the form). With regards to the broad sword, it translates well to a baseball bat. The straight sword translates to holidng a car antenna.

Having said all that, I use CMA weapons to work on stance training, conditioning, balance, and preservation of the history of my style. As I have posted before, I do not believe ANY Martial Arts have any any street application that is the end all be all. Any martial art out there practice blocking a bullet or having someone unknowingly stab you in the back technique? How bout getting jumped by ten big guys with clubs and a shotgun. Any MA got a fool proof defense against that? Dont think so, yet it happens on the street. How bout a defense against 2 teens coming into a space and shooting it up? How bout someone walking up to you and just smashing your face in while his buddies kicks you to the ground and takes your wallet. How bout a defense against some guy walking into a cafe and blowing himself, and you, up. Well I guess if you are in MMA you can hug the guy and save the rest of the people in the cafe. Bottomline, street confrontation are unpredictable.

Pointless is based on the perspective of the individual. I believe MMA is pointless. Doesn't mean its not effective, but based on all the street fights I have seen and some involved in, MMA is a sure way to get your butt kicked and put into a hospital. I believe SUV's are pointless, that's cause I am single. To a married guy with 4 kids, that viewpoint may be different.

Classical weapons forms = pointless.
That would depend on what you want out of it.



i suppose

we train group fighting at my place

2 against 1
all against all (punching only) kind of trains ur reactions for mellee fighting

sometimes we have the whole class pick on one person and fight against him(for a limited time and only punching with boxing gloves) this kind of teaches you to evade and defend urself as best u can while fighting more than one person after the teacher says stop the guy gets up joins the class and the class pick another person to fight against (usually about 8-15 ppl in a class at one time)

i'd say going to ground in a group fight is stupid
but in one on one fights i have found it extremely usefull

and its safe to say that using cma is a much surer way of going to hospital than using tried and tested mma techniques

[xcakid]

i suppose

we train group fighting at my place

2 against 1
all against all (punching only) kind of trains ur reactions for mellee fighting

sometimes we have the whole class pick on one person and fight against him(for a limited time and only punching with boxing gloves) this kind of teaches you to evade and defend urself as best u can while fighting more than one person after the teacher says stop the guy gets up joins the class and the class pick another person to fight against (usually about 8-15 ppl in a class at one time)

i'd say going to ground in a group fight is stupid
but in one on one fights i have found it extremely usefull

and its safe to say that using cma is a much surer way of going to hospital than using tried and tested mma techniques


Good training, still lacking though.

Tried and true MMA techniques. :D And where did those techniques derive from. Go ahead, I'll give you a few hours to trace back the roots. Silly rabbit trick are for kids.

It really sounds like you have had some bad instructors coupled with your unmet expectations of CMA. CMA is usefull in street situations. I have used it on two confrontation in my life. One was quick: Altercation with a guy bigger than me. As he pulled back to punch, I did a 2 finger poke in his eyes. As he backed up and grab for his eyes, I got the flock outta there. I was by myself and he had his homies with him. Another altercation was at a bar. Guy was bothering my ex GF. As we were walking out he grab her butt. I said a few word to him. His response was to grab my throat. I hit him with a panther fist to the throat. As he gagged, I peeled off his hand from my neck with a chin na technique pressing his arm to the ground and proceeded to kick him in the face. That altercation got me a chauferred trip to a local holding cell and a wonderfull breakfast in cell the following morning. As well as a very entertaining visit with a judge.

If you are so into MMA, WTF are you doing in a kung fu board? :p

[RAF]

I think this is a better clip for contrasting spear practices:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TCotquKU&mode=related&search=

[BruceSteveRoy]

I think this is a better clip for contrasting spear practices:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TCotquKU&mode=related&search=

either that guy is 3 feet tall or that is a really long spear.:eek:

[golden arhat]

Good training, still lacking though.

Tried and true MMA techniques. :D And where did those techniques derive from. Go ahead, I'll give you a few hours to trace back the roots. Silly rabbit trick are for kids.

It really sounds like you have had some bad instructors coupled with your unmet expectations of CMA. CMA is usefull in street situations. I have used it on two confrontation in my life. One was quick: Altercation with a guy bigger than me. As he pulled back to punch, I did a 2 finger poke in his eyes. As he backed up and grab for his eyes, I got the flock outta there. I was by myself and he had his homies with him. Another altercation was at a bar. Guy was bothering my ex GF. As we were walking out he grab her butt. I said a few word to him. His response was to grab my throat. I hit him with a panther fist to the throat. As he gagged, I peeled off his hand from my neck with a chin na technique pressing his arm to the ground and proceeded to kick him in the face. That altercation got me a chauferred trip to a local holding cell and a wonderfull breakfast in cell the following morning. As well as a very entertaining visit with a judge.

If you are so into MMA, WTF are you doing in a kung fu board? :p



well most of the techniques i use dont come from cma thats for sure

i dont think kung fu is competly useless and i have a hunch that once upon a time was once quite similar to mma in concept and training

and that alot of what is now called cma is simply a tool to take money from westerners and chinese alike

and at the base of it when do u see a cma practitioner beat an mma practitioner in a fight ?

well then, simple answer really

adn yeah the reasons i'm on this board
1 i like to discuss martial arts in general
2 i like discussing other things aswell
3 i used to do hung kune for 2 years (tho i am almost certain it wasnt legit) so i signed up here and found discussing thigs on here to be alot of fun so when i changed styles i carried on on discussing things basically

[Yao Sing]

golden arhat
Look at the 00:33 point of the first video and notice the whipping head movement as he snaps into a pose. Very common in contemporary Wushu but nothing you would do in a real life fight, or a traditional CMA set.

The thing with modern Wushu is they'll take traditional moves but execute them without any martial intent but with focus on appearance.

[Lucas]

sparring with weapons, if you are inclined to do so, shares many of the same qualities in regards to combat as empty hand fighting does.

Timing, distance, creating opportunity through deception (feints and the seizing of opportunity), breathing, perception and reaction time.

there are many benefits through weapon training, most through actual combat simulation, though you can still recieve numerous beneficial qualities through weapon training.

in addition, men of old could attest to the strength, endurance, and power that is build through long term use of heavy steel weapons.

[xcakid]

well most of the techniques i use dont come from cma thats for sure



Are you sure about that? 99% of the styles out there trace their roots back to CMA. Greco Roman Wrestling, sure. Pankration, sure. Some African warrior arts, yes. But majority of MA out there can trace root back to on form of CMA or another.



i dont think kung fu is competly useless and i have a hunch that once upon a time was once quite similar to mma in concept and training

and that alot of what is now called cma is simply a tool to take money from westerners and chinese alike




I agree. CMA has gotten watered down. It is very hard to find a competent instructor these days.



and at the base of it when do u see a cma practitioner beat an mma practitioner in a fight ?




In the ring I would say its nearly impossible to beat MMA using CMA. Out in the street. I would say the would depend on a lot of factor. Experience is being one of them. Wether or not they stick to their training or use a more unorthodox way of fighting is another. There are many variable in a street fight. One style is not the end all be all.

Heck my 13yo nephew with no MA training can beat an experienced MMA fighter out in the streets where there is no rule. He has won many 1st place in long range shooting and archery. No need to get up close and personal.


adn yeah the reasons i'm on this board
1 i like to discuss martial arts in general
2 i like discussing other things aswell
3 i used to do hung kune for 2 years (tho i am almost certain it wasnt legit) so i signed up here and found discussing thigs on here to be alot of fun so when i changed styles i carried on on discussing things basically


Well there ya go. :cool:

[Lucas]

people with the mindset that MMA is the end all be all beat everyone method is the same as CMA people thinking they will eye gouge, throat chop, crotch kick (tm) the world to death.

the same mindset with in the flaw that they believe in and gravitate to an extreme that is outside the bounds of actual reality.

real life street encounters of men protecting themselves and loved ones will not adhere to ideals or rules or any sort of format.

its a sickness both sides needs to drop.

a man with power is a man with power, period. if he trains hard, believes in his training and understands its limits AND its potentialities he is on the right path to making his MA work FOR HIM.

[Oso]

Originally Posted by RAF
I think this is a better clip for contrasting spear practices:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TCotqu...elated&search=

either that guy is 3 feet tall or that is a really long spear.

it's probably better described as a footman's lance vs. spear though the difference is basically the size: the better to reach out and touch someone.

look at some old pictures of the dagger/axe type spears or halberds that are really old

as I understand it, some of the oldest texts on martial application are military spear manuals. they taught soldiers how to stand shoulder to shoulder and kill the other dudes.

this is shown, I believe, in this yang form by the short deflections and quick follow up thrusts.

*edit* ...all to the front w/o much attention to the flanks because your bud was covering you.

the one set I know (which I've only known a year now) is a Lau Gar set that has some similar movements...yao sing knows the one I know (from yu shan)

makes me wonder if we need to pay more attention to those older texts and be more direct in our kung fu and cut the flowery crapola out more.

[BlueTravesty]

I think both of those videos were pretty funky, but I would declare #2 to be the lesser of two evils

That spear-tossing nonsense is pretty dumb. It looks nice, but tossing your spear in a fight is just begging to lose a tooth, or worse.

[David Jamieson]

I don't have any flowery crap in the kungfu I've learned and if ever there was, I would drop it in favour of the direct attack and defend content.

[mantis108]

The "skip" is indeed a throwing dirt move. It's compare to a bison or buffalo throw dirt around before the charge. If you look at the following move, which is a thrust, you would see that thrust being covered by a screen of dirt (not on a carpet on a concrete flood of course). This adds to the unpredictable nature of the shooting of the spear head. But on a carpeted flood, well ... what can we say?

This form is one of those classified as "flower" spear as opposed to power spear or lance. There are a lot of threading moves which the exponent aren't that in tune with (re: lacking in fluidity), which is why you feel it's awkward looking. He didn't establish a connection with his spear well. Also the length of the spear is too short for his height. This significantly affected his form. You simply can't do a good job without the right tool.

The form is excellent with a lot of great techniques in there.

As for the wushu spear, that's CRAPOLA extreme - complete waste of time!

Mantis108

[Yao Sing]

The "skip" is indeed a throwing dirt move.

I just don't buy that 'app' and feel that's the stuff that gives CMA a bad name. How much dirt do you think you can kick up and what are the odds of having sufficiently loose, dry dirt to kick up?

Personally I don't see more than a small amount of dirt hitting below the knees at best. I challenge anyone to show that in practice in a believable way.

But then there are quite a few apps in CMA that I'm not buying. I think the transmission of knnowledge has been warped over the years and CMA really needs a shake up.

[street_fighter]

maybe it wasn't about getting the dirt into they eyes of the guy, but about turning up dust to cloud vision, ninja style so you could retreat, or stab. I suppose there might be a few dirty terrains that that might work in... either way, pretty far fetched and ridiculous, but so is looking at apps of weapon play in the first place IMO. But it is possible some obscure fighter pulled it off once, and someone put it into a form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9a977HzFg
looking at this dust, it seems plausible, if there was little wind.

[Yao Sing]

It's a stretch I think. I just see it as stuff for the MMA types to jump on and ridicule CMA. I really don't see that having enough effect on someone looking to kill you. Plus you're in the same dirt fog you stirred up about as much as the other guy. Gues I'll have to try it out.

I could be wrong. Very much dependent on environment. There is a dirt throwing move in a Shaolin set I learned last time I was in China.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I just don't buy that 'app' and feel that's the stuff that gives CMA a bad name. How much dirt do you think you can kick up and what are the odds of having sufficiently loose, dry dirt to kick up?

Personally I don't see more than a small amount of dirt hitting below the knees at best. I challenge anyone to show that in practice in a believable way.

But then there are quite a few apps in CMA that I'm not buying. I think the transmission of knnowledge has been warped over the years and CMA really needs a shake up.

Excellent post, I share your sentiment exactly!!!

[Shaolindynasty]

I didn't watch the clip in question but.........
Anybody that feels that traditional weapons training has no place in modern self defense training should read my article "Modern function for an Ancient weapon" in the current issue of kungfu taichi magazine.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=720

It's about the Chinese Broadsword (Dao) but the idea expressed is relevant here.

[mantis108]

So I guess some people are lucky enough that they have never get a grain or sand or some dust particles in their eyes. They never have to blank and try to flush it out.
Good for you. :rolleyes:

All it takes is a little bit of dust particles that makes you blink or irrated enough to slow down in your defense and the spear will have an upper hand. You won't even want get facing the sun if you are in weapon duel situation (check out Musashi). The person who can use this form to fight will not be a novice. All he/she needs is to disrupt or slow you down by a fraction of a second assuming you are fast and strong. Even in the UFC how many times that guys got the eye poked albiet accidental and then their games just collapsed. Now that's just bare hand. What happen if you are weapon against weapon?

Mantis108

[Yao Sing]

So I guess some people are lucky enough that they have never get a grain or sand or some dust particles in their eyes. They never have to blank and try to flush it out.
Good for you. :rolleyes:

All it takes is a little bit of dust particles that makes you blink or irrated enough to slow down in your defense and the spear will have an upper hand. You won't even want get facing the sun if you are in weapon duel situation (check out Musashi). The person who can use this form to fight will not be a novice. All he/she needs is to disrupt or slow you down by a fraction of a second assuming you are fast and strong. Even in the UFC how many times that guys got the eye poked albiet accidental and then their games just collapsed. Now that's just bare hand. What happen if you are weapon against weapon?

Mantis108

No fair, you're going from a fine particle dust cloud that may or may not reach eye level and then backing up the claim with an eye poke (accidental or deliberate).

Sure a finger in the eye will ruin your day but fighting in the dirt just goes with the territory. I just don't see a dust cloud making that much of a difference. Plus it goes both ways and any dirt kicked up can just as easily go into the eyes of the kicker.

It's just a weak app IMO and not at all equivalent to facing the sun in a fight. If you like it and trust it then fine. I just don't buy it myself.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Whether the application is valid or not is up to the practitioner. He is free to choose what will
work for him. When I saw the move performed, it suggested that the form originally covered a much larger area and the move was inserted to shorten the area covered. I also saw the monkey aspect and the dirt being kicked.

If the dirt kick application is not good enough, develop another. You actually have that freedom to do so.

I remember another dirt application. That is where the person slaps both hands on the ground (grabbing dirt/sand), thrusts his fingers forward(throwing dirt/sand) and then does a reverse sweep. Another person seeing the same move may interpret it as a double hand grab that pulls the opponent forward that impales the opponent's eyes on your fingers, followed by a sweep. We were not there when the form was created; so, you can rely on oral tradition or be bold and use your consciousness. There is nothing wrong with either approach.


mickey

[NJM]

both seem equally pointless

Is it still pointless if you carry a spear around with you?

[David Jamieson]

Is it still pointless if you carry a spear around with you?

even if you didn't carry it, a spear is still pointy...on one end. unless it's a double ended spear in which case it is for sure not pointless. :p

[golden arhat]

Is it still pointless if you carry a spear around with you?

yeah i can think of much better simpler attacks and defenses for spears

i like that taiji spear actually i mean it could use some all round defense but its straight forward attack and defense is good

[mantis108]

No fair, you're going from a fine particle dust cloud that may or may not reach eye level and then backing up the claim with an eye poke (accidental or deliberate).

Sure a finger in the eye will ruin your day but fighting in the dirt just goes with the territory. I just don't see a dust cloud making that much of a difference. Plus it goes both ways and any dirt kicked up can just as easily go into the eyes of the kicker.

It's just a weak app IMO and not at all equivalent to facing the sun in a fight. If you like it and trust it then fine. I just don't buy it myself.

Fair enough, I'm mainly coming from a traditional scope, in which that type of "skip" is referred to as rooster stepping not at all monkey footwork. The point of my post is that the ambience of fighting or rather the creation of an ambience in a fight is addressed in traditional form. Any component of the created ambience (ie the dust particle) may or may not be the catalyst of winning or losing a fight but it would add to the complexity of it. Making use of the environment as an extention of your weapon and yourself, that to me is the beauty of traditional forms. BTW, I am a fan of the ancient Chinese military strategy that make your opponent feels and believes that the grasses in fields and the trees in the woods are as real as any soldiers. As long as self doubt and hesitation sets into his mind and action, you are half way through winning.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[TenTigers]

the dirt kicking skip(rooster scratching the ground is a good description) appears in our Hung-Ga spear as well. It is always seen with a retreating,covering movement,followed by an abrupt attack.
I also learned a Hung Kuen set that had the two hands slapping the ground,grabbing dirt and throwing it, again followed by a retreat into a counter attack. It can also be interpeted as slamming the opponent's head onto the ground, which is one of the throws in our style as well.
I just don't like the fanciful technique done three times. But, I also don't like the galloping movement in my Guan-dao set either.:rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

the dirt kicking skip(rooster scratching the ground is a good description) appears in our Hung-Ga spear as well. It is always seen with a retreating,covering movement,followed by an abrupt attack.
I also learned a Hung Kuen set that had the two hands slapping the ground,grabbing dirt and throwing it, again followed by a retreat into a counter attack. It can also be interpeted as slamming the opponent's head onto the ground, which is one of the throws in our style as well.
I just don't like the fanciful technique done three times. But, I also don't like the galloping movement in my Guan-dao set either.:rolleyes:

if there are things in your style u dont like
why dont u remove them ?


where are u based again ?

[TenTigers]

for a few reasons-
1-I don't believe in simply getting rid of a technique, simply because I don't like the application. That's how arts get diluted and lost. I am just scratching the surface in MA, so who knows-later on, I might learn a great application that I never knew existed. Most people who think their art is inneffective, simply haven't seen it. Probably never will.

2-because the empty hand application is a break from an armbar.

3-I have a certain respect for where I come from. I respect those who have come before me.

4- I also have what I feel is a personal "connection" to Guan-Gung, and performing the set pays homage. (Hey, some people light shabbot candels,some take communion, some make offerings of wine, some sacrifice virgins...)

[TenTigers]

besides, I live in a latino neighborhood-we have plenty of roosters!

[lostdragon]

for a few reasons-
1-I don't believe in simply getting rid of a technique, simply because I don't like the application. That's how arts get diluted and lost. I am just scratching the surface in MA, so who knows-later on, I might learn a great application that I never knew existed. Most people who think their art is inneffective, simply haven't seen it. Probably never will.

2-because the empty hand application is a break from an armbar.

3-I have a certain respect for where I come from. I respect those who have come before me.

4- I also have what I feel is a personal "connection" to Guan-Gung, and performing the set pays homage. (Hey, some people light shabbot candels,some take communion, some make offerings of wine, some sacrifice virgins...)

I agree with this. One of my past teachers emphasized that weapons training is not obsolete because

a) they contain training methods for learning basic and advanced skills
b) augment your empty hand skills (in fact, I'd argue that in many instances weaponwork is likely the forerunner to the empty hand technique that some systems have developed, rather than the other way around...)
c) can teach about how to deal with similar improvised weapons- both in application and in defense. No you don't deal much with broadswords or spears, but what if you have a really unbalanced heavy pipe you need to use to defend yourself. The way you learn to use your body to turn a heavy blade, for instance, can help a person do the same with any similar object. Same goes for spear/staff training, using a flexible weapon such as a chain, etc.

A couple other things...

- a lot of traditional forms are enyclopedias of applications, not how to apply the applications. Learning how to really use them and what they contain has not been part of many ppls martial education (at least from my observations...)

- I've seen many ppl who can do beautiful forms, but don't know how to apply forms (or they have not so great interpretations.)

- In many instances, pulling off something in a traditional form takes some fundamental skills of speed, power generation, etc. that some ppl just don't have, so the technique looks really weak.

- Some forms have elements that isolate a particular idea or part of movement. It's not meant to be isolated in application, but gets isolated in practice, proly because someone thought it was important.

- Some things are just show and other things are made for show. Therefore, they need to be slightly altered in order to be applicable. Whether this was done to hide things or was just simply hidden to someone who didn't know how to 'read' movement, who knows. What I mean by this usually has to do with what targets to select, how to apply patterns of movement of your body adaptively (e.g. kicks are exaggerate steps where I come from, punches easily become elbows, defensive motions become offenses, etc....), and practicing real fighting. A foundation with those things usually gives you a better idea of what works and what doesn't

- Sometimes there is just crap/fluff thrown in, usually by someone who wanted to make something for show, wanted to 'hide' something, or really didn't know what they were doing. There are also forms that I've seen that just don't have substance. Not all are created equally. Not all originators were good fighters or knew what they were doing.

I think one of the biggest complaints that I've seen- the use of forms- is also a huge strength in TMA. These are histories that have a lot of ideas in them. But they need to be extrapolated and practiced, and this often doesn't get done or takes too long for someone who wants to learn some self defense things now (I realize that's not everyone's approach...)

Not a gripe or anything, but just some observations. Anyway, just my 2cents. I'm likely just another nutter.

LD

[Jeffoo]

The first vid is clearly someone new to both contemporary wushu AND the spear. It's decent and he gets all the moves, but just not very experienced in it and definitely not well trained in the basics, especially given how wushu probably overdoes those. One point that people seem to forget is that wushu bases all of its moves on traditional kung fu. If you've seen a variety of kung fu performed (Mantis, Cha, Hua, Eagle, Mizhong) it's very clear that modern wushu took techniques and elements out of those (made them more camera ready) and incorporated them into their forms while adding some gymnastics skills. The problem with MOST wushu teachers (even in China) they don't know where the moves come from and for sure forgot what it's original usage is.

The 2nd vid is Yee Lo Moi Fa Cheung and is a Mantis spear form. Again, it's not bad per se, but it's clear that the performer was given too small of a space to perform. As for the fancy steps as so many have called it. These are retreating steps and are common in many mantis forms. Yes, in theory it can be used to flip sand at an opponent, but it's a distraction as well because it can be used as a small kick to the shin of an advancing opponent. Very similar to the small slap kick which many northern styles use in conjunction with other kicks. Not effective as a stand alone, but part of an over all fighting strategy. Given that students followed their masters so precisely when being taught techniques, the original move may not have looked like that at all. An instructor decades ago could have had foot problems that caused him to walk that way and through the years of his students mimicking him passed it on that way. I'm not making a joke about that. If you've every studied mainland Spain's version of Spanish, there are some words spoken with a lisp because at one time one of the kings spoke with a lisp.

Why do it multiple times? Traditional kung fu is designed to be repetitious so as to ingrain the techniques in the person to become 2nd nature. Similar moves are found in mantis (Yeen Ching Do, Kwan Do, etc.), Eagle Claw (5 leopards) and Hung Gar from what I've seen.