application vs

[Shaolinlueb]

ok so i was reading RD's thread and i was doing some thinking.

kung fu these days, sparring fighting, its a lot of kick boxing, punches kicks.
kung fu is punching and kicking, but the applications arent being used.

kung fu was designed as a military art correct? so all the "killing" applications are no longer getting practiced. people are just doing the san shou and kick boxing. do you think this hurts the art? applications just get something that are practiced in the classroom as what if's. but most dont even put realism into it.

i know times are changing so no need to point out people aren't fighting for their lives anymore over stolen pigs.

am i just blabbing again about nothing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok so i was reading RD's thread and i was doing some thinking.

kung fu these days, sparring fighting, its a lot of kick boxing, punches kicks.
kung fu is punching and kicking, but the applications arent being used.

kung fu was designed as a military art correct? so all the "killing" applications are no longer getting practiced. people are just doing the san shou and kick boxing. do you think this hurts the art? applications just get something that are practiced in the classroom as what if's. but most dont even put realism into it.

i know times are changing so no need to point out people aren't fighting for their lives anymore over stolen pigs.

am i just blabbing again about nothing?

Which system are you refering to?
The majority of kung fu was civilian, not military.

[MasterKiller]

If you aren't doing Ti Da Shuai Na, you aren't doing kung fu.

[RonH]

I think the excising of certain applications from styles, for whatever reason, does hurt the style.

[Golden Arms]

I dont think Ti Da Shuai Na is present in all TCMA to the same extent, but I guess you have stated your opinion.

[Shaolinlueb]

If you aren't doing Ti Da Shuai Na, you aren't doing kung fu.


engrish please.

[TenTigers]

kick,strike,throw,lock/grappling. All or most TCMA contain all of these

[David Jamieson]

...... true

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah but how many people you know who can actually use the applications they learn? i see these "kung fu masters" fight and they start throwing wild blows and cant use anything. that 1950's fight is a prime example.

[MasterKiller]

yeah but how many people you know who can actually use the applications they learn? i see these "kung fu masters" fight and they start throwing wild blows and cant use anything. that 1950's fight is a prime example.

I dunno about you, but I kick, punch, throw, and lock people in class every night.

[TenTigers]

it's the same thing all over, not just Chinese MA-you will find that most schools don't fight using the techniques of their style-due to lack of proper instruction from their own teachers. It simply gets passed down. There are schools that do, but it seems that of late, they are the exception,rather than the norm. Just because a school CLAIMS they teach traditional Kung-Fu doesn't mean a thing. They all claim that. Sure, they do the forms, lion dancing,wear silk pajamas,maybe even speak Chinese-heck, many ARE Chinese. Many have good reputations, and might even be the heads of large organizations. So what? Nobody wants to be told that they have been sold a cheap bill of goods. Nobody wants to know the emperor has no clothes. You simply have to look harder. No matter what thety say, who they trained under, how famous they or their teachers were, if you don't see them teaching Kung-Fu, and don't go for their excuses-no matter how you slice it, they don't have it. Period.

[Myotic24]

Now when you say "fight" do you mean like a boxing or kick boxing match fight or do you mean a self defense situation?

Most of the applications, at least in my styles are defensive and in that type of situation you don't exchange techniques back and forth. It should be over relatively(to a match) quick. In fighting, people are punching and kicking back and forth trying to sucker people in to over commiting and what have you. In that situation its hard to apply a defense technique, especially qin na.

So what kind of situation are we talking here?

[TenTigers]

as far as the 1950's fight being a prime example, I'm not sure. I have heard so much stuff about that-that it was simply an exhibition, that they were horrible, whatever. I just don't look at them as being any type of example. Likewise, I also don't see that one guy who claimed to do Gung-Fu and lost in the uFC as being an example either. He didn't display any skill in Gung-Fu and it was evident when he got on the floor. Where are the good examples? I don't know. I do know this- I have seen and met and touched hands with some top-notch Gung-Fu guys whose skill scared the heck out of me. Real skill. Real Gung-Fu-the type you read about. I've seen it, and felt it. And none of these guys have any interest in displaying it, for whatever reason. Who do they have to prove it to? To You? To the guys on this little forum? To Joe Shmoe? These people mean NOTHING to them. What are we,children? The guys who claim it doesn't exist> What have they seen? I know the ones who have seen it, and that's all that really counts.

[Shaolinlueb]

Now when you say "fight" do you mean like a boxing or kick boxing match fight or do you mean a self defense situation?

Most of the applications, at least in my styles are defensive and in that type of situation you don't exchange techniques back and forth. It should be over relatively(to a match) quick. In fighting, people are punching and kicking back and forth trying to sucker people in to over commiting and what have you. In that situation its hard to apply a defense technique, especially qin na.

So what kind of situation are we talking here?

im not talking about the kick boxing. all styles do that. im talking about the actual applications in self defense situations and how easily they can use them without freezing up.

[Shaolinlueb]

as far as the 1950's fight being a prime example, I'm not sure. I have heard so much stuff about that-that it was simply an exhibition, that they were horrible, whatever. I just don't look at them as being any type of example. Likewise, I also don't see that one guy who claimed to do Gung-Fu and lost in the uFC as being an example either. He didn't display any skill in Gung-Fu and it was evident when he got on the floor. Where are the good examples? I don't know. I do know this- I have seen and met and touched hands with some top-notch Gung-Fu guys whose skill scared the heck out of me. Real skill. Real Gung-Fu-the type you read about. I've seen it, and felt it. And none of these guys have any interest in displaying it, for whatever reason. Who do they have to prove it to? To You? To the guys on this little forum? To Joe Shmoe? These people mean NOTHING to them. What are we,children? The guys who claim it doesn't exist> What have they seen? I know the ones who have seen it, and that's all that really counts.


tentigers likewise i have met some good kung fu guys too. guess i just get frustrated with all the trolls on this board who do get fed stuff and think it is crap.

[MasterKiller]

tentigers likewise i have met some good kung fu guys too. .

Then what are you complaining about, again?

[TenTigers]

SL-look, there are two sides in this little forum-which evidently,has become some people's whole world. Those that say yes, and those that say no. This argument will go on forever. "Did too" Did not!" You are" "No, YOU are" if you get pulled into it, it now becomes your whole world as well. Sure, it gets annoying, if you let it.

[Chosen-frozen]

If you aren't doing Ti Da Shuai Na, you aren't doing kung fu.

Amen, I couldn`t have said it better. Yes if you limit yourself to only striking and kicking you`re doing your art an injustice. And be the same logic, if you only concentrate on throws and grappling you`re doing the same thing.

[jmd161]

it's the same thing all over, not just Chinese MA-you will find that most schools don't fight using the techniques of their style-due to lack of proper instruction from their own teachers. It simply gets passed down. There are schools that do, but it seems that of late, they are the exception,rather than the norm. Just because a school CLAIMS they teach traditional Kung-Fu doesn't mean a thing. They all claim that. Sure, they do the forms, lion dancing,wear silk pajamas,maybe even speak Chinese-heck, many ARE Chinese. Many have good reputations, and might even be the heads of large organizations. So what? Nobody wants to be told that they have been sold a cheap bill of goods. Nobody wants to know the emperor has no clothes. You simply have to look harder. No matter what thety say, who they trained under, how famous they or their teachers were, if you don't see them teaching Kung-Fu, and don't go for their excuses-no matter how you slice it, they don't have it. Period.


True!


jeff:)